Multimedia Mania

home *** CD-ROM | disk | FTP | other *** search

/ Multimedia Mania / abacus-multimedia-mania.iso / dp / 0120 / 01209.txt < prev

Wrap

Text File | 1993-07-27 | 46KB | 1,082 lines

$Unique_ID{bob01209} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 16, 1973. (10:00am - 10:40am)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{dean john nixon pres right say that's president am get} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 16, 1973. (10:00am - 10:40am) Meeting: President Nixon and John Dean, Oval Office Pres. Nixon: Good morning, John. How are you? John Dean: Good morning. Pres. Nixon: Sit down, sit down. Trying to get my remarks ready to deliver for the building trades. You know I was thinking, get the odds and ends - (inaudible). You will remember we talked about resignations, et cetera, et cetera that I should have in hand. Not to be released. John Dean: Un, huh. Pres. Nixon: But that I should have in hand something or otherwise they will say, "What the hell. After Dean told you all of this, what did you do?" You see? John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: I talked to Petersen about this other thing and I said, "Now what do you want to do about this situation on Dean, et cetera?" And he said, well, he said I don't want to announce anything now. You know what I mean. John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: But what is your feeling on that? See what I mean? John Dean: Well I think it ought to be Dean, Ehrlichman and Haldeman. Pres. Nixon: Well, I thought Dean at this moment. John Dean: Alright. Pres. Nixon: Dean at this moment because you are going to be going and I will have to handle them also. But the point out, what is your advice? You see the point is, we just typed up a couple just to have here which I would be willing to put out. You know. John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: In the event that certain things occur. John Dean: I understand. Pres. Nixon: To put - just putting. What is your advice? John Dean: I think it would be good to have it on hand, and I would think to be very honest with you - Pres. Nixon: Have the others too? John Dean: Yeah, have the others too. Pres. Nixon: Well as a matter of fact, they both suggested it themselves so I've got that - I am sorry, Steve, I hit the wrong bell. John Dean: (Half laugh) Pres. Nixon: So I have already done that with them. John Dean: Alright. Pres. Nixon: They said look whatever - and I want to get your advice on them, too. And what I would think we would want to do is to have it in two different forms here and I would like to discuss with you the forms. It seems to me that your form should be to request an immediate leave of absence. That would be one thing. The other, of course, would be just a straight resignation. John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: First, what I would suggest is that you sign both. That is what I had in mind. And then we'll talk about after - you don't know yet what you're. For example, if you go in and plead guilty you would have to resign. John Dean: That is right. Pres. Nixon: If on the other hand, you're going in on some other basis, then I think the leave of absence is the proper thing to do. John Dean: Uh, huh, I would think so. Pres. Nixon: And that is the way I would discuss it with others, too. If you have any other thoughts, let me know. I am not trying to press you on the thing. I just want to be sure John's got the record of anything that I should have here. John Dean: I think it is a good idea. I frankly do. But I think if you do it, for one, I think you have problems with others too Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: I already have the others. John Dean: That is what I am trying to advise you on - Pres. Nixon: But on theirs, both, it is all pending their appearance, et cetera. That isn't yours. Nothing is going to be said but I have to have it in hand by reason, as I told them as a matter of fact after our talk last night. I told them that I have to have these in hand so that I can move on this if Petersen is going to report to me everyday. I said now Petersen, "If you get this stuff confirmed, I need to know." He said, well, I asked him specifically, "what do you do? Who is going to be today?" And he said, "well, Strachan." There are three today I think. Who is the third one? John Dean: I don't know. Pres. Nixon: That's right! You're not . . . John Dean: (Laughter) Pres. Nixon: Then, OK. John Dean: What I would like to do is draft up for you an alternative letter putting in both options and you can just put them in the file. Short and sweet. Pres. Nixon: Alright. Fine. I had dictated something myself. All my own which, if you can give me a better form, fine. I just want you to do it either way. Do you? Or do you want to prepare something? John Dean: I would like to prepare something. Pres. Nixon: Good. Alright. Fine. Why don't you take this? You can take those as an idea and have something. I've got to see Petersen at 1:30. John Dean: Alright. Pres. Nixon: Understand I don't want to put anything out because I don't want to jeopardize your position at all. You have a right to, just as everybody else has. You have taken a hell of a load here but I just feel that since what you said last night that we've got to do it and with Haldeman and Ehrlichman I have leave of absences from them. Which, however, I will not use until I get the word from Petersen on corroboration which he advised himself. I talked to him after you left - about 11:45 and let [him - characterization omitted] know how hard we work around here. John Dean: Well, you will have something within a couple of hours. Pres. Nixon: I won't be back. Yes, you draft what you want me to. In other words you can - John Dean: And if you don't like what I draft, you can tell me and I will change it in any way that you want. Pres. Nixon: Oh sure, oh sure. But I can't make the decisions, of course. You see and also, well, put it this way: you draft what you want and if I have any concern about it I'll give you a ring. You can be around, et cetera. But you would agree that nothing should be put out now? John Dean: I would agree. I was thinking about that. Pres. Nixon: You see we got that problem today that the thing may break. You know with Magruder, et cetera and I. You know that is what I wanted to run over with you briefly. You know to get your feeling again as to how we handle it. You were saying the President should stay one step ahead of this thing. Well, we've got - the only problem is what the hell can I say publicly? Here is what we have done. I called in Kleindienst. I have been working on it all week. As soon as I got the Magruder thing I got in Kleindienst and then at 4:00 p.m. we got in Petersen. Kleindienst withdrew and assigned Petersen. I said, "Alright, Henry, I don't want to talk with Kleindienst anymore about this case. I am just ding to talk to you. You are in charge. You follow through and get to the bottom of this thine and I am going to let the chips fall where they may." We have covered that all the way down the line. Now I had to follow him to a certain extent on the prosecution side. On the other hand on the PR side I sure as hell am not going to let the Justice Department step out and say look we dragged the White House in here. I've got to step out and do it, John. Don't you agree? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Again, I don't want to walk out and say look John Dean's resignation has been accepted. (Expletive omitted) That isn't fair. John Dean: Nor would it be fair to say Ehrlichman and Haldeman's have. Pres. Nixon: You see, they haven't been charged yet. As soon as they are charged it's a problem. But in your case you haven't been charged with anything yet. J. Dean: No, I have not. Pres. Nixon: That is my problem. The only reason I am doing this is because of what you said about them and that is why I am getting from them too. J. Dean: Well there is a chance today when LaRue goes down that Haldeman, Ehrlichman's name are going to he right down there before the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: Well, the name may be in but the point is you don't just throw somebody out because their name comes forth. You understand. J. Dean: I understand. Pres. Nixon: You could also, if you would, I would like for yon to prepare a letter that you would have for Ehrlichman and Haldeman. Would you do that? J. Dean: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Then I will give them the form and let them work out something that is appropriate. Would you prepare that for me? J. Dean: Yes, I will. Pres. Nixon: But they told me last night orally, just as you did, that J. Dean: They stand ready? Pres. Nixon: With head erect, they said, look, we will leave in a minute. We will leave today, do whatever you want." I said, "No, you are going to have to wait until we get some evidence." You know what I mean? John Dean: Uh, Huh. Pres. Nixon: I father you agree with me. John Dean: That is what I do and the question is timing and - Pres. Nixon: Let's get Dean's advice as to how we handle this from now on. What is your advice? J. Dean: Well, I would say you should have the letters in hand and then, based on what you learn from Petersen, you can make a judgment at the time. I think you are still five steps ahead of what will ever emerge publicly. I don't think - Pres. Nixon: I think they caught (inaudible) somebody told me that the Post according to Ziegler has something they are running tomorrow. Magruder talking around and everything. I don't know. J. Dean: Well. I know some of the things Magruder said. He said that the prosecutors had asked him a number of questions about Ehrlichman and Haldeman. There is no doubt that that will be out on the street also. Pres. Nixon: Then the other will come out too. John Dean: Uh, Huh. Pres. Nixon: That's my point, see. J. Dean: Fortunately, I am hoping that the ultimate resolution of this thing is that no one has any problems and that is possible. Pres. Nixon: Legally? John Dean: Legally. Pres. Nixon: That's right, which I hope is your case too. In other words when I say anything about the White House Staff - not you, not Colson, or Haldeman because - (expletive omitted). Let me make this point again. I need - we know there is, Ziegler has always said it was oral. J. Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Right. But you remember when you came in, I asked you the specific question "Is anybody on the White Rouse staff involved in it?" You told me, "No." John Dean: That's right. And I have no knowledge Pres. Nixon: You still believe that - John Dean: Yes sir, I do. Pres. Nixon: But you did tell me that in the aftermath there were serious problems. J. Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Right. And, I said, "Well, let's see what they are." J. Dean: And now you are beginning to see what they are. They are potential, technical, obstruction of justice problems. Pres. Nixon: I talked to Petersen last night and he made exactly the same point. He said the obstruction was morally wrong. No, not morally. He said it may not have been morally wrong and it may not have been legally wrong, but he said from the standpoint of the Presidency you can't have it. So, he seems to think that the obstruction of justice thing is a (expletive omitted) hard thing to prove in court. J. Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Which I think should be some comfort to you. J. Dean: Well, my lawyer tells me, you know, that, "legally you are in damn good shape. Pres. Nixon: Is that right? Because you're not - You were simple helping the defendants get their fees and their - What does he say? J. Dean: In that position, I am merely a conduit. It is very technical, very technical. I am a conduit to other people. That is the problem. Pres. Nixon: What was the situation, John? The only time I ever heard any discussion of support for the defense fund was (inaudible). I guess I should have assumed somebody was helping them. I must have assumed it. But I must say people were good in a way because I was busy. Was when you mentioned to me something about hard-hitting problem. But that was handled by Mitchell. Was that true or what? John Dean: The last time we had a request was the week before sentencing. Pres. Nixon: He hit you at a dinner or something? John Dean: No, no. O'Brien, who was one of the lawyers who was representing the Re-Election Committee, was asked by Hunt to meet with him. He came to me after the meeting and said that Hunt asked that the following message be passed to you. I said, "why me?" He said, "I asked Hunt the same question." Pres. Nixon: You, Dean - or me, the President? John Dean: Passed to me, Dean. Pres. Nixon: He had never asked you before? John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: Let me tell you. What did you report to me on though. It was rather fragmentary, as I recall it. You said Hunt had a problem - John Dean: Very fragmentary. I was Pres. Nixon: I said, "Why, John, how much is it going to cost to do this?" That is when I sent you to Camp David and said (expletive removed) "Let's see where this thing comes out." John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: And you said it could cost a million dollars. John Dean: I said it conceivably could. I said, "If we don't cut this thing -" Pres. Nixon: How was that handled? Who handled that money? John Dean: Well, let me tell you the rest of what Hunt said. He said, "You tell Dean that I need $72,000 for my personal expenses, $50,000 for my legal fees and if I don't get it I am going to have some things to say about the seamy thing I did at the White House for John Ehrlichman." Alright I took that to John Ehrlichman. Ehrlichman said, "Have you talked to Mitchell about it?" I said, "No, I have not." He said, "Well, will you talk to Mitchell?" I said, "Yes I will." I talked to Mitchell. I just passed it alone to him. And then we were meeting down here a few days later in Bob's office with Bob and Ehrlichman, and Mitchell and myself, and Ehrlichman said at that time, "Well is that problem with Hunt straightened out?" He said it to me and I said "Well, ask the man who may know: Mitchell." Mitchell said, "I think that problem is solved." Pres. Nixon: That's all? John Dean: That's all he said. Pres. Nixon: In other words, that was done at the Mitchell level? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: But you had knowledge; Haldeman had knowledge; Ehrlichman had knowledge and I suppose I did that night. That assumes culpability on that, doesn't it? John Dean: I don't think so. Pres. Nixon: Why not? I plan to be tough on myself so I can handle the other thing. I must say I did not even give it a thought at the time. John Dean: No one gave it a thought at the time. Pres. Nixon: You didn't tell me this about Ehrlichman, for example, when you came in that day. John Dean: I know. Pres. Nixon: You simply said, "Hunt needs this money." You were using it as an example of the problems ahead. John Dean: I have tried all along to make sure that anything I passed to you myself didn't cause you any personal problems. Pres. Nixon: John, let me ask you this. Let us suppose if this thing breaks and they ask you John Dean, "Now, John, you were the President's Counsel. Did you report things to the President?" John Dean: I would refuse to answer any questions unless you waive the privilege. Pres. Nixon: On this point, I would not waive. I think you should say, "I reported to the President. He called me in and asked me before, when the event first occurred, and passed to the President the message that no White House personnel in the course of your investigation were involved." You did do that didn't you? John Dean: I did that through Ehrlichman and Haldeman. Pres. Nixon: I know you did because I didn't see you until after the Election. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Then you say, after the election when the McCord thing broke, the President called you in. I think that is when it was, wasn't it? John Dean: No. It was before the McCord thing, because you remember you told me after Friday morning that McCord's letter - you said, "you predicted this was going to happen." Because I had oh, in the week or two weeks Pres. Nixon: Why did I get you in there? What triggered me getting you in? John Dean: Well, we just started talking about this thing. Pres. Nixon: But I called you and Moore together for a Dean Report, didn't I? John Dean: On a Wednesday morning - Pres. Nixon: Oh, I know what was involved. It was involving that damn executive privilege and all that. John Dean: The Gray things were popping. On the Wednesday morning before I asked - Pres. Nixon: We had three conversations to my recollection. John Dean: Well, sir, I think we had more than that. But, of course, we have a record of that through those people. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: I think we had more than that. Pres. Nixon: I have to read this. Go ahead. John Dean: But the one report where I finally called Bob and said, "Bob, I don't think the President has all the facts." Pres. Nixon: That's right and then you came and sat in this chair and that is the first time that I realized the thing. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Now the question: well Mr. Dean, is: "Why didn't you tell the President before?" And your answer there is, "I didn't know." That's what you told me last night. You see, I don't want you, John, to be in a position and frankly I don't want the President to be in the position, where one of his trusted people had information that he kept from him. John Dean: I did not know. Pres. Nixon: Fine. You did not know. How did you find out then? But you can handle that. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: But I did ask you and I think you should say the President authorized me to say this - I won't reveal the conversation with the President - he asked me this question. I told him this, that nobody in the White House was involved. And in addition to that to the best of my ability I kept, I guess, or how do you think you should handle this Presidential advice? Maybe you better - John Dean: Well, I think the less said about you, I think you say anything you want to say anything about it. Pres. Nixon: Well, let me tell you I am going to handle that properly and I just wanted to be sure that it jives with the facts. I can say that you did tell me that nobody in the White House was involved and I can say that you then came in, at your request, and said, "I think the President needs to hear more about this case." John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Then it was that night that I started my investigation. John Dean: That's right - that was the Wednesday before they were sentenced. Now I can get that date - Pres. Nixon: Would you do this. Get your chronology of this. Wednesday you came in and told me that, et cetera. That would be helpful for me to have. That is when I frankly became interested in the case and I said, "Now (expletive omitted) I want to find out the score." And set in motion Ehrlichman, Mitchell and - not Mitchell but a few others. OK? John Dean: Sure. Pres. Nixon: One other thing. On this privilege thing - nothing is privileged that involves wrongdoing. John Dean: That is correct. Pres. Nixon: On your part or wrongdoing on the part of anybody else. I am telling you that now and I want you when you testify, if you do, to say that the President told you that. Would you do that? Would you agree to that? John Dean: Yes Sir. Pres. Nixon: Fine. However, let me say with regard to what we call the electronic stuff they heard, and what I have now found is in the leak area of the national security area. That I consider privileged. John Dean: I do too. Pres. Nixon: And I think you should say, for example, on that. What I mean is I think in the case of the Kraft's stuff what the FBI did, they were both fine. I have checked the facts. There were some done through private sources. Most of it was done through the Bureau after we got - Hoover didn't want to do Kraft. What it involved apparently, John, was this: the leaks from the NSC. They were in Kraft and others columns and we were trying to plug the leaks and we had to get it done and finally we turned it over to Hoover. And then when the hullabaloo developed we just knocked it off altogether. But in my view, I consider that privileged. John Dean: I have no intention of raising that in any conversation. Pres. Nixon: Have you informed your lawyers about that? John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: I think you should not. Understand, not because it would cut anything but I do think it is privileged. But it is up to you. John Dean: No - I think it is privileged also. Pres. Nixon: Support your own - and this was necessary to do. If we had had Hoover under more control, as Lyndon Johnson did, it would have been better. Now, your guess is when will you be called? Perhaps Tuesday or Wednesday or - John Dean: I would think sometime this week. Pres. Nixon: You don't think the thing is likely to break today? John Dean: No, I don't. Pres. Nixon: I wonder what Ziegler's got. He must, he seems to think something is going to break. He hasn't been in to see me and I will have to get him in later. Well, I will ask Petersen. Don't you agree with me that it is better that we make the first announcement and not the Justice Department. John Dean: Yes I do. On your own staff. Pres. Nixon: Oh hell, I am going to make the announcement on Magruder too. (expletive omitted) It was our campaign. I am not going to have the Justice Department - we triggered this whole thing. Don't you agree? You helped to trigger it. You know what I mean. John Dean: When history is written and you put the pieces back together, you will see why it happened. Because I triggered it. I put everybody's feet to the fire because it just had to stop. Pres. Nixon: That's right. John Dean: And I still continue to feel that. Pres. Nixon: You put Magruder's feet to the fire. Where did you see Magruder? John Dean: I didn't. In fact, I refused to see him. That was one of the problems. Pres. Nixon: Oh, and that's why - John Dean: I started to talk with - I met with him in one of these outer offices at a meeting. Pres. Nixon: What got Magruder to talk? I would like to take the credit. John Dean: Well. Pres. Nixon: I was hoping that you had seen him because - John Dean: He was told, one, that there was no chance. Pres. Nixon: As a matter of fact, he made a statement about (inaudible) around the White House. I guess this was pre-primaries - it was all committed. Pres. Nixon: But on Magruder, come again. John Dean: The situation there is that he and Mitchell were continuing to talk. Proceeding along the same course they had been proceeding to locking their story, but my story did not fit with their story. And I just told them I refused to change, to alter my testimony. But would repeat it just as I had given it. This had to do with a number of meetings in the Department of Justice. Pres. Nixon: Oh yes, I remember. You told me that. I guess everybody told me that. Dean said, "I am not going down there and lie," because your hand will shake and your emotions. Remember you told me that. John Dean: Yes, I said that. I am incapable of it. Pres. Nixon: Thank God. Don't ever do it John. Tell the truth. That is the thing I have told everybody around here. (expletive omitted) tell the truth! All they do John is compound it. Pres. Nixon: That (characterization omitted) Hiss would be free today if he hadn't lied. If he had said, "Yes I knew Chambers and as a young man I was involved with some Communist activities but I broke it off a number of years ago." And Chambers would have dropped it If you are going to lie, you go to jail for the lie rather than the crime. So believe me, don't ever lie. John Dean: The truth always emerges. It always does. Pres. Nixon: Also there is a question of right and wrong too. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Whether it is right and whether it is wrong. Perhaps there are some gray areas, but you are right to get it out now. John Dean: I am sure. Pres. Nixon: On Liddy I wanted to be sure. You recall our conversation. You asked me to do something. I have left it with Petersen now and he said he would handle it. That's the proper place. When Liddy says he cannot talk with peers it must be higher authority, I am not his higher authority. It is Mitchell. John Dean: Well, he obviously is looking for the ultimate, but I think he is looking for the ultimate. He has the impression that you and Mitchell probably talk on the telephone daily about this. Pres. Nixon: You know we have never talked about this. John Dean: I understand that. Pres. Nixon: I have never talked to Mitchell about this except when whether we got the executive privilege thing. John Dean: Right. Pres. Nixon: He came in and said everyone should testify in executive session except you. Which I think, I think it should not be with executive privilege. John Dean: I think, Mr. President, the earlier, it will be a fizzle, when Petersen finishes with his - Pres. Nixon: You don't think we can bold to executive privilege anyway do you, John? John Dean: To hold on executive privilege? Pres. Nixon: Tell me your version what should we do? John Dean: I think if there are indictments down there in that court room, none of us will be able to go up to testify. I think the Watergate is just going to be totally carved out of the Ervin Hearings. Pres. Nixon: That's Watergate and then the other stuff is not that important, Segretti and all that? John Dean: Segretti and all that stuff is not that important. They will try. They can have a lot of fun with it, but it is not very meaningful. Pres. Nixon: So you think that Liddy thought that my calling Mitchell would be typical. Well, we covered that last night. You were there. Is that enough? John Dean: Petersen will tell you if it doesn't - Pres. Nixon: You tell me if you don't think it is enough - John Dean: No, I think it is enough. Pres. Nixon: I am going to expect you - after all, you are still the Counsel around here - John Dean: Laughter Pres. Nixon: No, I am serious. You've got to advise me the same with Haldeman and Ehrlichman as long as you are around here, we've got to John Dean: Well, I want to lay one thing out. I think there is a mythical belief - Now, I have not talked to Bob or John about this - they don't have a problem Mr. President. And I am not really sure that they do, but I am telling you, they do. Pres. Nixon: A problem? There is no question about it. Petersen made the point. I said, "Tell me what the facts are." And he said, "The problem is that they are going to get splashed, and when they get splashed, you've got a problem, Mr. President." Now then he goes on to say that as far as the legal form of obstruction is concerned and he covers all three of you here, it is a very difficult case to prove. Do you agree with that? John Dean: Uh, huh. That's fine. Pres. Nixon: You see that is the point. I know it would work. I am speaking not in personal terms. John Dean: It is a technical case and it is a tough case. Pres. Nixon: It's a tough one to prove. What does he mean by that? John Dean: Apparently, my lawyer said, "Now, I have won cases on this with tougher facts than you've got I will as sure you." It would not be a - Pres. Nixon: So that is their real culpability, both Ehrlichman and Haldeman are in on the obstruction, is that your point? John Dean: It would be a very good idea if they had counsel. Pres. Nixon: I told them last night they ought to get lawyers so I am one step ahead of you there. Is there anything else you think I should do? You don't think I should - I am not going to let the Justice Department break this case, John. John Dean: I understand. You've got to break it. You are breaking it. Well, (expletive omitted) that is what we have done. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: I could have told you to go to Camp David and concoct a story couldn't I? And you have never beard that said, have you? John Dean: No Sir. Pres. Nixon: In fact, I think I covered a little of that (inaudible). But on the other hand, it was your job to tell me, wasn't it? John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: And you have. Basically what you have done - no, you told me the truth though. You've told me the truth. It was your job to work for the President, the White House staff and they were not involved in the pre-thing. But then you thought the post- thing. You thought about it and that is why you decided, as you said, John Dean: I thought we should cut the cancer right off because to keep this whole thing - Pres. Nixon: Look, one thing I want to be sure. When you testify, I don't want you to be in a position, and I don't want the President to be in a position, that his Counsel did not level with him. See my point? John Dean: There is no point that I have not leveled with you, as you should know. Pres. Nixon: Now when they say, "Now Mr. Dean, why didn't you tell the President - did you know about this? Why didn't you tell the President?" John Dean: That is a PR situation Mr. President. The U. S. Attorneys are not going to ask me questions asking what I said to the President and what I didn't. Pres. Nixon: Well, I frankly think - I would hope you can help on the PR there by saying - John Dean: I will be happy to help on it. Pres. Nixon: I would like for you to say - and you are free to talk. You are to say, "I told the President about this. I told the President first there was no involvement in the White House. Afterwards, I told the President that I -" And the President said, "Look, I want to get to the bottom of this thing, period." See what I am driving at - not just the White House. You continued your investigation, et cetera, and the President went out and investigated on his own. Which I have done, believe me. I put a little pressure on Magruder and a few of John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: And as a result of the President's actions this thing has been broken. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Because also I put pressure on the Justice Department - I told Kleindienst - (expletive omitted) John Dean: No, I think you are in front right now and you can rest assured everything I do will keep you as far as - Pres. Nixon: No, I don't want, understand when I say don't lie. Don't lie about me either. John Dean: No, I won't sir - you - Pres. Nixon: I think I have done the right thing, but I want you to - if you feel I have done the right thing, the country is entitled to know it. Because we are talking about the Presidency here. John Dean: This thing has changed so dramatically. The whole situation since I gave you the picture Pres. Nixon: Since you sat in that chair - John Dean: In that chair over there and gave you what I thought were the circumstances, the potential problems. You have done nothing but try to get to the bottom of this thing, and - Pres. Nixon: I think so. Well, I said, "Write a report." But my purpose was you write a report as I said, "I want the Segretti stuff. Put everything else. Was the White House involved? You know, et cetera." How about one last thing. Colson. You don't think they are going to get him into something? John Dean: I think he has some technical problems close also. I don't know if he has any. To the best of my knowledge, he had no advance knowledge of this thing. Pres. Nixon: Right. I suppose the key there is Hunt. He was so close to Hunt. I just want to know for my own benefit. As I told you last night, I don't want to get out there in front and have someone say "What about Chuck Colson?" John Dean: Chuck swore up and down to me Pres. Nixon: I have got to say - to you John Dean - was Colson involved? John Dean: I have no information that he was at all. Pres. Nixon: Post? The two things you mentioned last night. John Dean: That and let's face it the other technical jobs, you know. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: All the obstruction is technical stuff that mounts up. Pres. Nixon: Well, you take, for example, the clemency bit. That is solely Mitchell apparently and Colson's talk with Bittman where he says he will do everything I can because as a friend. John Dean: No, that was with Ehrlichman. Pres. Nixon: Hunt? John Dean: That was with Ehrlichman. Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman with whom? John Dean: Ehrlichman, and Colson and I sat up there. Colson presented his story to Ehrlichman regarding it and then John gave Chuck very clear instructions on going back and telling him, "Give him the inference he's got clemency but don't give him any commitment." Pres. Nixon: No commitment. John Dean: Right. Pres. Nixon: That's alright. No commitment. I have a right to say here - take a fellow like Hunt or a Cuban whose wife is sick or something and give them clemency for that purpose - isn't that right? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: But John specifically said, "No commitment," did he? John Dean: Yes. Pres. Nixon: And then Colson went on apparently to John Dean: I don't know how Colson delivered it - Pres. Nixon: To Hunt's lawyer - isn't that your understanding? John Dean: Yes, but I don't know what he did or how - Pres. Nixon: Where did this business of the Christmas thing get out, John? What in the hell is that all about it? That must have been Mitchell, huh? John Dean: No, that was Chuck again. Pres. Nixon: That they would all be out by Christmas? John Dean: No, I think he said something to the effect that Christmas is the time the clemency generally occurs. Pres. Nixon: Oh yeah. Well, I don't think that is going to hurt him. Do you? John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: Clemency is one thing. He is a friend of Hunt's. I am just trying to put the best face on it, but if it is the wrong thing to do I have to know. John Dean: Well, one of the things, I think you have to be very careful. And this is why the issue should be very good is, if you take a set of facts and let the prosecutors who have no PR judgment but they will give you the raw facts as they relate to the law, and it's later you have to decide what public face will be put on it. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I understand. You can help on that, John. John Dean: Yes sir. Wherever I may be I will be available to help on that. Pres. Nixon: Well, I hope you are right - You think you testify when? Well, Petersen will decide that. John Dean: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Do you want me to say anything to him about it? John Dean: No. I think my lawyers and the U. S. Attorneys office ought to continue to work in the same manner - Pres. Nixon: You see, I am having him report to me daily now. Which I think I should do. John Dean: Right. Pres. Nixon: So all I will say is that I am going to tell him that we have talked today and that I went over again the various materials - John Dean: What would be the best thing in the world is if they decide that they've got nothing but technical cases against people at the White House and they chuck them all out. That is not impossible. Pres. Nixon: Should I telephone him? John Dean: No sir. Pres. Nixon: That's what they ought to do. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: It may he a tough case for them to prove John. John Dean: Well, they started out not to do it and none of the events are even released. It could very well happen. Pres. Nixon: Well that's what I hope and I understand. The reason I have to have that is in case there is a break tonight. I don't want to have to call John Dean in and say, "Look, John, can I have it?" It looks like I was, like a cramp in my plans. I've got to know because I do have some knowledge there might be more involved here. All that I am saying of this, as you know, is that I have heard things from the U. S. Attorney, and from John Dean and from my own people that indicate that there could be a technical violation. Under the circumstances, I feel that it is my duty to have your resignation in hand. Of course, the President always has a resignation. How does that sound to you? John Dean: Well, that's right. Well, the thing is in phrasing the letter is important. You don't call anybody involved when it is their problem, so that is why I would like Pres. Nixon: Well, understand those are my dictations. They are only a form for you. You work it out and work it out so that it would be one that would apply to you and work out the answer to Ehrlichman and Haldeman's letter. Just a form that I can give anybody - Strachan - John Dean: He has gone to USIA. Pres. Nixon: Well, that doesn't come to me does it? John Dean: Well, the whole Executive Branch - is Pres. Nixon: No, no I mean just let him submit his resignation to Krogh. I will get his resignation. I will tell those guys - John Dean: I don't think you ought to tell Strachan. I think Pres. Nixon: No, no, no - tell Krogh he ought to ask for his resignation. John Dean: I think Bob ought to do that though. Pres. Nixon: Bob Haldeman? Good. I will tell Bob to get Strachan and Magruder. That's your advice. Also if you do have any random thoughts on how many more we could do on the presentation of this thing, sit over in your office and think. You know what I mean, the President is in front. John Dean: I will give you some notes on it which I think will help. Pres. Nixon: Would you do that? John Dean: Sure I will. Pres. Nixon: The record. Here is what I have done - here is what I have done - here is what we think the President ought to do and when, you see what I mean? And then if we have to use these things, I pray to God we don't, you guys don't deserve them. You don't deserve them. John Dean: Well, the important thing is not them, it is you. Pres. Nixon: No - well, I know maybe it isn't me personally, it is this place. John Dean: It is this office and the campaign office as well. Pres. Nixon: Remember, be back. John Dean: Alright sir. Pres. Nixon: I would just sit there. Hang tight. John Dean: I couldn't be more objective Mr. President. Pres. Nixon: What John Dean: I say, don't think I have lost my objectivity at all in this. Do you know why? (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Laughter. Ok John.