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$Unique_ID{bob01201} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 15, 1973. (3:27pm - 3:44pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres haldeman hr now get say yeah magruder bill} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 15, 1973. (3:27pm - 3:44pm) Telephone conversation: President Nixon and HR Haldeman Operator: Yes, Sir, Pres. Nixon: Mr. Haldeman, please. Operator: Thank you Operator: Mr. Haldeman Pres. Nixon: Hello, I hope you are enjoying this lovely day. HR Haldeman: No, I am afraid not. Got to get out and take a look at it. It really looks beautiful outside. Pres. Nixon: Are you working on your statement? HR Haldeman: Yeah - and I talked to Bill and - haven't been able to reach - Pres. Nixon: Yeah. I got that message from Bill. HR Haldeman: Did you talk to him? Pres. Nixon: John Ehrlichman's got it. He talked to you or to Bill, I don't know which. HR Haldeman: Rogers - I gave John a very quick rundown, but Bill wanted to think about it and talk some more and I think he has gone out to play golf or something. He doesn't seem to be around Dow, so he will call me later this afternoon. His view - he said it really depends on what the Grand Jury does. In other words, he doesn't come on strongly that we should go up there. He has some real reservations about whether we should. I think you got a real problem in the judicial proceeding with possibly prominent people under indictment and all that, and run a Congressional investigation at the same time. And the problem we have had up to now is the feeling that nothing is being done. This whole feeling is going to change, and if something is being done you don't have to start doing everything and he said if we can work out some safeguards that Congress would live lip to, via capitulation and all that maybe we should consider going because people do want things cleared up. He said, I really, I think the Committee is handling themselves poorly. I think if the Grand Jury is going to come out fairly soon with their indictments, I would strongly vote the other way. I would hang tight for an offer to go up and speak to the Committee in Executive Session, but I wouldn't up on camera. He said, I think your court room rules is basically a sound position and that people will see that. Pres. Nixon: Uh huh. I just told Ehrlichman to the contrary, but I can change my mind. Ehrlichman had talked to Moore - and Moore says, "Well, hell, everything is really - there is going to be so much flying around it isn't going to make any difference." Moore tends to - well, - HR Haldeman: I don't think that is necessarily true either. Pres. Nixon: Moore - I think is - HR Haldeman: If that is true then, why go up on television? Pres. Nixon: It just makes it worse doesn't it? Well his point, I guess, Moore's point is at least have the President be forthcoming. But what does that do? Let the President be forthcoming and let them kill us. HR Haldeman: That's right. And Roger's view is if you - at least his preliminary view and he wanted to think about it a while he said if indictments come down at high levels. Pres. Nixon: Yes - HR Haldeman: Then you have been forthcoming. You have said all along that you would cooperate with the Grand Jury. Now if you cooperated with them, which you said you were doing, and nobody said you weren't, and they produce results, that is what the people are after. The people's concern is that nothing - that everybody is just sitting here doing nothing about the Watergate, which is what they think because they haven't seen any result out of the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: Well, we are going to have some. HR Haldeman: He also made the point, I said - well we may be able to get a victory here without having to pay the price, in the sense that if we agree to go up and the Grand Jury comes down with indictments they will probably turn off the hearings for a time anyway. Then we would have the trials and that sort of stuff. So we would have appeared to be forthcoming but we wouldn't maybe have to go. And he said I don't agree with that because Pres. Nixon: Bill said what? HR Haldeman: Bill said I don't agree with that - but he said - he thanks it is inevitable that they have to stop the hearings if there are indictments at a high level. Pres. Nixon: He's right. I agree with that. HR Haldeman: He says they can't go on with those hearings while those people are pending trial. Until they have been tried and sentenced - you cannot go ahead with the hearings. On that basis, you don't want to know how long that is going to take. Pres. Nixon: Kleindienst just stopped in. He said it will take four or five years. HR Haldeman: Why in the world does he think that Pres. Nixon: The trials, appeals, they'll go to the Supreme Court, you know Mitchell is in a fight and these other guys, what the hell? HR Haldeman: On that basis, you have the judicial process running who are these people. Bill feels strong on this. Pres. Nixon: What about the other things they want to get into? HR Haldeman: If they can separate them, that's fine. They are the once who hive said they are totally tied together. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, one thing too about the other things. They are going to be denied some of their principal witnesses. I mean Mitchell will not testify. He will never go up there, you know, before the Committee. HR Haldeman: Right. Pres. Nixon: And Magruder. He won't go up. HR Haldeman: Nope. Now you are getting the White House people Going up and not the other people. Where are you on that? And that is a question. Bill said, don't make a commitment now, you may have to meet in October or something when this thing runs itself out. Pres. Nixon: But he did think we could make the Executive Session commitment? HR Haldeman: Yes Pres. Nixon: Puts us in a good forthcoming position. HR Haldeman: That's his point, that that is a very sound offer, just as your offer to work with the Grand Jury was a sound offer that produced results. You say we will be perfectly willing to work with the Senate. Pres. Nixon: You indicated to Bill there would be indictments at a high level? John Dean: I said it looks as if they are going to be bringing indictments and that they are higher ups over at the Committee. Pres. Nixon: What did he say? HR Haldeman: He didn't react at all, but a little later he said, "Well, if Mitchell is indicted, or something, you know." I didn't say that, but he did. Pres. Nixon: Ok HR Haldeman: And - Pres. Nixon: You know, in a way - I mean in reading the Johnson/Witcover piece in the Washington Post, we are so low now we can't go any lower. Huh? John Dean: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: What did you think of that? Are they right? Not when they say today there is the over-riding concern today for Watergate. There will be when it comes out, obstruction and all that but - John Dean: Yeah. You can get that out by, you know, getting hold of a guy and say if President Nixon did the Watergate would you still vote for him and say No. Pres. Nixon: I wonder if they will use the Gallup Poll tomorrow if the damn thing comes out? HR Haldeman: Well, I haven't seen the Gallup release. I don't know that it went out, but I often don't get it until after it comes out. Pres. Nixon: We did have a hard figure on it didn't we? John Dean: He said it was a hard figure. 60-33. Pres. Nixon: Anyway, we are glad to have that. HR Haldeman: So, what does Kleindienst think now? Does he - Pres. Nixon: He's for a Prosecutor. HR Haldeman: So is Bill. Pres. Nixon: Bill is? Who did he have in mind? John Dean: He didn't have anyone in mind and I didn't get into that question with him. Pres. Nixon: I have really come to that conclusion, too, Bob. HR Haldeman: Oh, really? Pres. Nixon: For a reason. This is not to prosecute the case. A special Prosecutor, to look at the indictments to see that the indictments run to everybody they need to run to, so that it isn't just the President's men, you see. HR Haldeman: In other words, he is above Silbert rather than replacing Silbert? Pres. Nixon: Oh no, Silbert runs the case and that's all. But he is just in there for the purpose of examining all this to see that the indictments cover everybody. HR Haldeman: Uh, huh. Well that does protect you a lot, because if they don't indict some of us then you have a cover up problem. If you have that guy, then you have a basis - Pres. Nixon: Then he goes out and says, "I have examined all of this, and now let's stop all this. These men are not guilty and these men are not indictable and these are." HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: We are thinking about that. We haven't decided that yet. But I lean toward it now in order to just - we've got to get into the proper position there. HR Haldeman: That would make sense, rather than having Sneed take over. Pres. Nixon: Yep, because he's compromised to - I can do things for him in the future, see? I can for anybody, but - HR Haldeman: Yeah, but he is your appointee which is a little different. Although any Special Prosecutor is your appointee. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. It is a little different if he is outside. This Wright from Texas is the guy I sort of lean to. You know, the Dean of the Texas Law School. HR Haldeman: Well, I don't know. Did Dick have any reading on timing on indictments? Pres. Nixon: No. HR Haldeman: Because that is - Pres. Nixon: He thinks a lot of the stuff may leak with Magruder running around, and - Strachan told an interesting thing to Ehrlichman on Magruder which makes the point that I am - two weeks ago Magruder talked to Strachan, and tried to get Strachan to concoct with him the story that he, Strachan, did walk across the street with Magruder and tell Magruder to go forward with the operation. HR Haldeman: Which Strachan claims isn't true apparently. Pres. Nixon: No. My point is, don't you see, the devastating thing this is to Magruder, to his credibility? HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: I said to John, "Why the hell is be trying to do this?" Because Magruder's defense is that he is just doing it because of pressure from higher ups. You see the point? HR Haldeman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: And Magruder - so I am not so sure that a bell of a lot of Magruder's stuff, even on Mitchell, may be open to serious question. Serious question. HR Haldeman: Ok. But yeah, on some things I think that is true. Pres. Nixon: Some things, I think Mitchell is still in it. HR Haldeman: But I don't see how you - Pres. Nixon: But I mean, anything Magruder says about you, for example, if he does, you know what I mean. I think, Bob, your analysis of Magruder once that be is a guy that doesn't know the truth, is really true. HR Haldeman: I really believe that - Pres. Nixon: And I think now he has lied so much is he going to lie again and work with his attorneys and get himself separated from all this thing, etc. I think Strachan will be a damn believable witness when he goes down there. I really feel he will be. HR Haldeman: He will if he stays to the truth. Pres. Nixon: If he just tells the truth HR Haldeman: If he doesn't try to tangle things up at all. Pres. Nixon: Right. Hmm - Magruder was telling Strachan "Look this should he the story that I would like to tell -" HR Haldeman: It is kind of ridiculous. Why would Strachan agree to that? Pres. Nixon: Oh, he - it would implicate Strachan, but he is at the same level, too, see, so it wouldn't hurt him. The point of that would be simply - and he said Magruder told him about his family and his concerns and all that, made a great plea about how his personal problems were so serious. And he said, "Please, now, let's go along on this story." HR Haldeman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: That is interesting. HR Haldeman: Well Magruder was bouncing around in desperation, telling all different kinds of stories to different people. Pres. Nixon: That's right. Remember you told me that - HR Haldeman: Trying to tie something together and I think what happened is he ran that string out and finally just gave up because that wouldn't work and decided to tell the truth, but in the process he probably doesn't know what the truth is. He has made up so many different stories. I can understand that. It is hard for me to remember what's true, having just heard all of these other people's stories. It is difficult to sort the stuff out. If you start lying yourself - Pres. Nixon: Bill may have a point there. I have sort of had this, and I don't think Ehrlichman and particularly Moore didn't agree with it, that - look, if they get a hell of a big fish, that is going to take a lot of the fire out of this thing on the cover up and all that sort. If they get the President's former law partner and Attorney General, you know. Do you agree or not? Am I -? HR Haldeman: Yeah. What I feel is people want something to be done to explain what to them is now a phony looking thing. This will explain it. Pres. Nixon: Explain that they did it, and then of course the cover up comes in and they did that too. HR Haldeman: And it all makes sense, it is logical, believable, because it's true. Pres. Nixon: Right HR Haldeman: And there it is - I can't - it seems to me that there is at least a strong possibility, if not probability or certainty, that public reaction is going to be, well, thank God that is settled: now let's get away from it. Rather than the reaction of, "Ho, ho, ho, here is something pretty bad; let's spend a lot more time looking into it." Pres. Nixon: That's right. Well - HR Haldeman: I think people want solutions; they don't want ongoing problems. Pres. Nixon: You know some of that so called people - polling, and polling. Don't they say that Watergate, didn't you say that Gallup or, well, that its a concern, it worries them, etc. considered it a caper, and they want the damn thing explained. HR Haldeman: That's right. They want it explained and they want to get off of it. There isn't - Pres. Nixon: Kleindienst also comes in with the idea that sometime I've got to go out and make a Checker's Speech at 9:00 o'clock at night. I told him, "Now, Dick, I am not going to do that." HR Haldeman: Oh, I think that would be crazy. I sure do. Pres. Nixon: I said, "Now, Dick, I am not going to. I am not going to elevate it that way. If its going to be elevated, let the press elevate it. I will go out and say it before the press, in the press room, you know." HR Haldeman: Yeah. Unless there is - there is nothing now that indicates doing that. Pres. Nixon: But when (it comes out), I am going to have to say its rough, but that shows that our judicial system is - we, you know. The Special Prosecutor thing helps in another way. It gets one person between me and the whole thing. You see, the Dean report now has been totally discredited and, you see, HR Haldeman: Yep. That's right, and I think that is a darn good route for it, especially if it can be done. I hadn't thought about it, or understood it at the level you are now talking about, and that would seem to me exactly what you are after. Pres. Nixon: Not somebody to prosecute Mitchell. I won't have that. HR Haldeman: That is the other problem. What do you say when they indict Mitchell, and Mitchell doesn't plead guilty? You obviously can't say, I'm sorry. Pres. Nixon: Oh well, we will just say that I will not comment on the case. I'm - let's have the men work up a statement. HR Haldeman: I won't comment and I have full confidence in the American judicial process. Pres. Nixon: In the process and I - J. Haldeman: hope it will bring the guilty parties to account and clear the innocent parties. Pres. Nixon: He has pled innocent and I think he should have every opportunity to - (I don't know whether I can say I am confident in his innocence) - that will be the key question. HR Haldeman: That is just what I was going to say. You cannot - Pres. Nixon: It is not proper for me to comment on that because there has been an indictment. It is not proper for me to comment, except that he is a fine man, he is entitled to it I think we should not judge this case until it has been heard in the judicial process. HR Haldeman: You don't want to get into the position that Hiss's character witnesses got in. Pres. Nixon: I can't do it. I know. HR Haldeman: What you can do is express your faith in the system. You know there is a lot to be gained from this if the damn system comes out right. Pres. Nixon: That's right. HR Haldeman: In restoring people's faith in the system, rather than in this jackass kangaroo court. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. Ok. Incidentally, I wondered if you would talk to John Ehrlichman. I will get him but when you talk to him - HR Haldeman: I will be talking to him. Pres. Nixon: Be sure to tell him that I think that the way I hear Bill's thing spelled out, that I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense. Ok? HR Haldeman: Yes, Sir. Pres. Nixon: Alright. HR Haldeman: Alright.