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$Unique_ID{bob01200}
$Pretitle{}
$Title{Nixon Tapes, The
April 15, 1973. (1:12pm - 2:22pm)}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Various}
$Affiliation{}
$Subject{nixon
pres
kleindienst
unintelligible
that's
dean
right
yeah
say
now}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Title: Nixon Tapes, The
Author: Various
Date: 1974
April 15, 1973. (1:12pm - 2:22pm)
Meeting: President Nixon and Richard Kleindienst, EOB Office
Pres. Nixon: Well.
R. Kleindienst: How you feeling?
Pres. Nixon: Fine - fine - a little tired - I've been working very hard as
you can imagine with everything
R. Kleindienst: Last night after the White House Correspondents' Dinner, at
midnight, Henry Petersen called me, quite agitated - after
which he and Earl Silbert, who is the Chief Assistant U.S.
Attorney who tried the Watergate matter and Harold Titus came
over. Titus is the United States Attorney.
Pres. Nixon: Like some coffee. Would you like coffee?
R. Kleindienst: No, thank you sir.
Pres. Nixon: Coca-Cola?
R. Kleindienst: Nothing, thank you. I'd like a glass of water if I may.
Pres. Nixon: Glass of water - and some coffee - Chief.
R. Kleindienst: The purpose of it was to give me the benefit of what had
transpired on Thursday, Friday and Saturday with Magruder, and
then what had been transpiring for a week with John Dean and
his attorneys.
Pres. Nixon: They didn't negotiate with Dean I understand.
R. Kleindienst: John has some attorneys - I don't recognize the names.
Pres. Nixon: Attorneys?
R. Kleindienst: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: Good, good he's got one.
R. Kleindienst: The posture that Dean and his attorney, that they're
exploring the legal situation with the understanding if they
don't work out some kind of a strong arrangement then anything
that is said or represented by either John or the attorney will
not be used.
Pres. Nixon: Hhmm.
R. Kleindienst: Kind of an exploratory situation.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: I wanted to see you and why I wanted to see you immediately,
by myself, is that.
Pres. Nixon: No problems then - in seeing me by myself. If you want, I mean.
R. Kleindienst: Yes, Sir.
Pres. Nixon: I guess with Cabinet people and the rest they always can. I
have other people in, Dick, as you know, so that nobody keeps
the damned notes out of the Cabinet. My understanding is -
R. Kleindienst: I talked to John Ehrlichman last night. Also.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - he told me that you wanted to come in, and I said "fine."
R. Kleindienst: When I talked to him last week I didn't think there would be
much necessity to be here today, Sunday.
Pres. Nixon: This is Sunday, certainly.
R. Kleindienst: Magruder's conversations and John's conversations with
attorneys, with every absolute certainty that Magruder's going
to be put on before the Grand Jury.
Pres. Nixon: Are they going to call him back?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, of course, because he's going to plead guilty.
R. Kleindienst: He's going to plead guilty and he's going to tell everything
he knows
Pres. Nixon: Sure.
R. Kleindienst: That kind of information is not going to remain confidential.
Pres. Nixon: As you know, the - we have no, - I have not and I would not try
to get information from the Grand Jury, except from you.
R. Kleindienst: Right.
Pres. Nixon: And we have not. But the reason - the reason that I am aware
about the Dean thing - I have taken Dean off the matter, of
course. I had to. As far as 'what he was reporting here at
the present time. I put Ehrlichman on.
Pres. Nixon: Ehrlichman's conducted his own investigation which I told him to
give you. He says it's now not going to mean much because he
says Magruder frankly corroborates everything that he thought
(unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: Except that Magruder may - you can't tell, in his view, that you
can believe everything Magruder says because Magruder's
apparently got a -
R. Kleindienst: Got a self-interest involved.
Pres. Nixon: He's got his self-interest and you don't know whether he's going
to drag this fellow or that fellow or whatever the hell is.
You know that's the trouble when a guy starts lying and, you
know - I mean - wondering whether Magruder is telling the whole
truth on John Mitchell - you know, Mitchell - have you talked
to Mitchell?
R. Kleindienst: No and I'm not going to. I don't think that I can talk to
him.
Pres. Nixon: I think you should know, Mitchell insists - I didn't talk to
him. You know, I have never asked him. Have you ever asked
him?
R. Kleindienst: No sir. We have never discussed the matter.
Pres. Nixon: I never have either. I asked Bill Rogers about that. I said,
Bill, should I ask him? No, John Mitchell. And so I asked
Ehrlichman. I said, now I want you to ask him.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: What I was going to say - the only information that we have is
the Magruder information and the Dean information and that's
enough.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - that's what we have here. The difficulty as outlined
by.
Pres. Nixon: The special prosecutors?
R. Kleindienst: No. No. The difficulty with respect to some of the
information as outlined. I stayed up until five o'clock this
morning with these people going over and over it again.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible) basic things where Dean implied
(unintelligible). The basic problem that - it's possible that
Dean might testify to, what Magruder will testify to, and then
you've got Strachan or somebody like that. He was on
Haldeman's staff. There is a possible suggestion that Haldeman
and Ehrlichman ah, as yet - it looks that way - whether there
is legal proof of it so far as that - that they.
Pres. Nixon: Indicating what?
R. Kleindienst: Well, knowledge in this respect, or knowledge or conduct
either before or after the event. But that in any - event,
whether there's -
Pres. Nixon: Both Haldeman and Ehrlichman?
R. Kleindienst: Yes. Whether it's sufficient to bring about an indictment as
a result of the course the testimony implies. There will be
statements made, circumstantial evidence depicted
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: That could raise a very serious question with respect to both
of them. That is my primary reason for talking to you
(unintelligible).
Pres. Nixon: Sure - Sure.
R. Kleindienst: I thought you ought to know.
Pres. Nixon: Who told you this? Silbert?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: So he says he gets his information from whom? Dean?
R. Kleindienst: Dean with respect to some statements that Ehrlichman is
supposed to have made after the event. There's no suggestion
that John Ehrlichman knew anything about it before.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: As to Bob, this fellow Strachen (pronunciation). Is that his
name?
Pres. Nixon: Strachan.
R. Kleindienst: Strachan?
Pres. Nixon: He worked for him. He's a guy who worked for Haldeman, down in
the basement.
R. Kleindienst: Well, we haven't really gone all the way with him yet. He's
kind of fishing around, you know, as to what he's going to say
and what's he's not - he's being a little bit suggestive but
there will be the probability that Strachan might provide
testimony that would -
Pres. Nixon: Implicate Haldeman?
R. Kleindienst: Would implicate Haldeman and it wouldn't be direct, precise
testimony.
Pres. Nixon: I have asked both Haldeman and Ehrlichman.
R. Kleindienst: I know you have.
Pres. Nixon: And they have given me absolute - you know what I mean. You can
only it's like - you would, you'd believe John Mitchell, I
suppose, wouldn't you? I don't believe Haldeman or Ehrlichman
could ever - you know - (unintelligible) hurt to be so close to
people and yet I think of -
R. Kleindienst: John Mitchell and I were a little off more by ourself.
(unintelligible) But the difficulty with respect to Bob and
right now they do not think that they are going to have the
kind of legal evidence that would lead to indictment. However,
they all feel that as a result of the closed testimony - a
matter which is going to come out. It will be circumstantial,
an association, an involvement, and it's going to be -
Pres. Nixon: Why don't you do something about it?
R. Kleindienst: Well, I think that that's part of the problem. The evidence
with respect to those Dow who would have knowledge of this
before June 17th, 'cause it's going to come out. You take some
of the evidence with respect to Dean.
Pres. Nixon: Dean was in the meetings. Dean claims that he said no. And
Mitchell does too. And that's what you've got to live with.
R. Kleindienst: But then they feel the serious aspect of the conduct
thereafter came in the, according to this testimony, that, with
respect to obstruction of justice
Pres. Nixon: Right
R. Kleindienst: - and that is the admission that LaRue, Mardian, Dean say
that he was rehearsed and rehearsed and coached and coached by
LaRue, Mardian, Mitchell, Dean, all for his initial testimony
before the Grand Jury. Well, Magruder could testify that he
believed that there's two things - the obstruction of justice
and suborning a witness of perjury.
Pres. Nixon: That could get them all on that.
R. Kleindienst: And if LaRue, Mardian, Dean, Mitchell said no we didn't do
that but we were told what the story was we did nothing.
Pres. Nixon: They would question that.
R. Kleindienst: Anyway, that's certain to be known to the prosecutor.
Pres. Nixon: That's right.
R. Kleindienst: With respect to the money that was available and used for
attorneys supporting these defendants.
Pres. Nixon: Mm, huh. The motive I think you passed that on to Ehrlichman
after I raised the question. A motive was involved there huh?
R. Kleindienst: About the money?
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: You know.
Pres. Nixon: If the money was raised.
R. Kleindienst: If you plead guilty and he's guilty there's no crime
committed.
Pres. Nixon: What's that?
R. Kleindienst: That's. - I don't know.
Pres. Nixon: Explain that legal point please.
R. Kleindienst: Well, I inquired into it personally.
Pres. Nixon: Of course I was thinking of the Berrigans and all the funds that
have been raised through the years, Scottsboro, etc. Nobody
ever raised any question about it. If you raise money for the
defense and it's for support - and Ellsberg - (expletive
removed) in Ellsberg, the defense
R. Kleindienst: And likewise in this case. If I had committed a crime and
you know about it and you say, "Kleindienst, you go in the
Court and plead guilty to the commission of that crime and here
is ten thousand dollars, you know, to tide you over and so
forth."
Pres. Nixon: That isn't a crime?
R. Kleindienst: No. On the other hand, if you know that I committed a crime.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: And you say, "you go in there and plead guilty, and here is
twenty-five thousand dollars on the condition that thereafter
you'll say nothing. You must make the plea, take the Fifth
Amendment, the judge cites you for contempt, you've got to
continue to testify you don't. You do not take it." Then you
are now in a position of obstructing justice.
Pres. Nixon: Excuse me. If you'd explain that again. If you tell 'em - if
you tell 'em - if you raise the money for the purpose of
telling them not to talk.
R. Kleindienst: After he's pleaded guilty. Let's take the
Pres. Nixon: Well, they were all before the Grand Jury at this point, Right?
R. Kleindienst: And the judge says, "I'm going to give you immunity - I have
ordered you to testify to what you know." He refuses, takes
the Fifth Amendment and he's punished for contempt. And you
give him twenty-five thousand dollars. (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: There was some thought that - that was all after the election
that that happened, huh?
R. Kleindienst: I don't know but that happened after the conviction - after
Liddy's conviction.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, in other words, the obstruction they are talking about is
what happened after the conviction?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir.
Pres. Nixon: Rather than before the conviction?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir.
Pres. Nixon: Well, who the hell would - you mean - but I can't see Haldeman
or Ehrlichman or anybody in that (unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: Well.
Pres. Nixon: No - I'm just asking. Or Dean, ah, you mean that after that
that they raised - they gave money for that purpose?
R. Kleindienst: For whatever they gave - let's say that money was given to
Liddy in connection with - and.
Pres. Nixon: Let me say this - there isn't any question that money that they
have had on that or whatever - Mitchell's defense frankly - it
would - you know - these people had worked for the Committee
and they were provided with money for their legal fees and for
their support. That is - this is before their conviction. Now
comes the point of after their conviction. That's when the
ease may be, that's when you get the jeopardy.
R. Kleindienst: Or if people are up for trial, Mr. President, you say.
Pres. Nixon: NO - no - no - I'm sorry - not conviction - but after their
indictment.
R. Kleindienst: Yes. After the indictment were's fifty thousand dollars.
You plead guilty and thereafter take the Fifth Amendment. If
they offer you immunity, you know, not testify about anything.
If that's. -
Pres. Nixon: And then you give 'em money?
R. Kleindienst: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: That's - I agree.
R. Kleindienst: Yes - obstruction of justice.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. If the purpose of it is to get them not to talk. In
other words, not to carry out what the judge said. I can see
that. Sure.
R. Kleindienst: What the situation really is, and that's why I wanted to
communicate with you immediately, today, to keep this general
story off the streets.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, hell - don't they know about it?
R. Kleindienst: Tomorrow morning it's likely to be all over town. Tuesday
noon.
Pres. Nixon: Involving Haldeman and Ehrlichman, too?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - just generally. This Sirica, Judge Sirica, is not
enforcing the strict requirements of law with respect to
secrecy in Grand Jury proceedings.
Pres. Nixon: Certainly the one with regard to Mitchell do they, let me ask
you this - do they tell you flatly Mitchell will be indicted?
R. Kleindienst: Yes. They duo will Dean.
Pres. Nixon: Will be indicted?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: Even without his testimony - they're talking about it?
R. Kleindienst: Magruder's testimony will be enough to indict him.
Pres. Nixon: Strachan - will he be indicted?
R. Kleindienst: They don't know yet. Incidentally, Dwight Chapin testified
with respect to the so-called Segretti affair.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: And said that Haldeman knew about it.
Pres. Nixon: That's true. But that's not something they're in - because of
Segretti - even though Segretti pleaded the Fifth. It's just
bull - the Segretti thing - it's not this - it's just.
R. Kleindienst: That has nowhere near the potential of this situation. The
only thing it does with respect to Bob, it casts a little bit
of a taint.
Pres. Nixon: I know.
R. Kleindienst: That reflects upon the rest of it.
Pres. Nixon: Now what is your, what is your recommendation, then?
R. Kleindienst: Well, first I have this situation. It seems to me that so
long as I do anything at the Department of Justice I cannot
hereafter be with Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Mitchell, LaRue. They
won't believe that we didn't talk about the Watergate case.
Pres. Nixon: Who can you have contacts with? Me? I shouldn't be
R. Kleindienst: I think it is - I don't know whether I need contact anyone.
Incidentally, there's - a there's a weak possible case on
Colson.
Pres. Nixon: What is that?
R. Kleindienst: He knew about and was involved in a conversation pertaining
to money for Liddy's projects. Called on Colson to make over
the - to somebody else.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah, I heard about that.
R. Kleindienst: You know, "Where the devil are Liddy's projects?" So -
Pres. Nixon: Colson denies this doesn't he?
R. Kleindienst: Yes. He also did the unusual thing of hiring himself a lie
detector test.
Pres. Nixon: Oh (expletive removed)
R. Kleindienst: Isn't that a terrifying thing I've ever heard?
Pres. Nixon: Of course, I'm a great supporter of Colson's. He's been a brick
as have all these people. But (expletive removed) that was a
stupid thing.
R. Kleindienst: Just stupid. Crazy. Secondly -
Pres. Nixon: They consider there's a weak case on him at this point
R. Kleindienst: Yes - and a very, very peripheral, weak case probably not an
indictable case with respect to Ehrlichman and
Haldeman.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: Just learned that.
Pres. Nixon: O. K. You're point is that it'll break - that their names have
been mentioned?
R. Kleindienst: You know - it'll come out in trial and testimony.
Pres. Nixon: What's your recommendation on it?
R. Kleindienst: Well.
Pres. Nixon: Let me tell you what concerns me, if I may. I want to talk to
the special prosecution a little bit. You know, it's
embarrassing and all the rest, but it'll pass. We've got to -
we've got to just ride it through Dick.
R. Kleindienst: Yes
Pres. Nixon: Do the best we can. Right?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir.
Pres. Nixon: We don't run to the hills on this and so forth. The main thing
is to handle it right.
R. Kleindienst: Those are my inclinations Mr. President.
Pres. Nixon: Well you know - we've got to handle it right.
R. Kleindienst: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: And naturally because of your association with John Mitchell you
would have to disqualify yourself.
R. Kleindienst: Mardian, LaRue.
Pres. Nixon: Oh - you know them all. Right - right - right. Now the
difficulty with the special prosecutor - it gets a guy into the
(expletive removed) thing. First it's a reflection - it's sort
of an admitting mea culpa for our whole system of justice. I
don't want to do that. I think what you ought to do - agreed -
the Dean doesn't know probably anything about criminal law.
R. Kleindienst: He doesn't know anything about this case either.
Pres. Nixon: About this case - but I think that the Dean - the Dean is a
decent, honorable man and you step aside, say that the Deputy
Attorney General of the United States will be in charge of this
matter. And you say to him and (unintelligible).
R. Kleindienst: Don't understand - I think he ought to (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: No question about Silbert and those guys going after it. And I
- let me tell you. I have never - you know - I have never felt
that - I have always told these people around her - I say
(expletive removed) don't hold anything back. Just burns me
that they did.
R. Kleindienst: Last summer the conduct of everybody over here Mr. President
- really created great suspicions in the minds of Silbert and
Petersen, you know.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: Instead of being open and frank with you, trying to create an
impression of trying to help out, getting things going
Pres. Nixon: This was basically the Dean problem. He was running it.
R. Kleindienst: And also I think - well everybody was just scared to death.
They didn't know where the damn thing was going to end.
Pres. Nixon: They thought there was an election - you know - let's face it -
that's why - why John.
R. Kleindienst: Why sure - I understand - I understand. It'll always be an
unanswered question and for that matter they were simply set in
motion thereafter you know so aggravating - you know, this
little
Pres. Nixon: But after the election, I couldn't think what in the name of
(expletive removed) reason did they play around then? Do you?
R. Kleindienst: No.
Pres. Nixon: You didn't know that they were doing this? I didn't know.
R. Kleindienst: No sir - I didn't know.
Pres. Nixon: I didn't - you know - as I was - one of the problems here - I
have always run my campaigns. I didn't run this one I must
say. I was pretty busy. Or maybe - handling the Russian
Summit. And you know, after the election - we were right in
the middle of the December eighth bombing - and holding
meetings - within the whole Administration. But I just can't
imagine - at that point - after the election is when this is
supposed to have happened.
R. Kleindienst: I think there are two paramount. -
Pres. Nixon: Understand - I mean the others - they were involved throughout.
But I mean after the election (Expletive removed) to condone
it.
R. Kleindienst: It seems to me there's two overriding considerations here.
One is yourself and your Presidency and secondly is the
institution. Both of which I think have to be protected and
preserved by the institution of justice. For me to recuse
myself and say the Deputy is now making all the prosecution
statements. The thing I have against that Mr. President is
that that Deputy is still your appointee. He's my deputy.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: I could be removed until this is cleared up - well that's
just an attempt you know to cover his (expletive removed). As
this thing goes into trial and when this testimony comes out
somebody going to come to a crescendo real fast.
Pres. Nixon: Of course.
R. Kleindienst: Then Sneed is going to be under attack. Frankly I don't know
enough about Joe Sneed - to know whether he's got the ability
to sit there and take it or will he do it. A little bit
differently than I and less than partisan for twenty years. He
has no particular attitude to you, me or anybody else. He's a
good lawyer, a decent man - probably got his future ahead of
him but whether he thinks of himself - and I just don't know
enough about him.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: At the present time. For one thing whether he's got the
ability.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: In a tough situation to it out or whether he could.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - but you got anybody else?
R. Kleindienst: Well that's why - and then on the other hand, with respect to
the special prosecutor, Mr. President. I think when you come
down.
Pres. Nixon: I'm not going to appoint him. Who would make it? You would
make it?
R. Kleindienst: I would. This would be my special prosecutor.
Pres. Nixon: Got anybody in mind?
R. Kleindienst: The Chief Justice, Roger Goff (?) and several other lawyers.
And incidentally the Chief Justice and I are very close
friends. And I want to get his feeling about the concept of it
and also who he would recommend. The one person that everybody
kind of comes together on is a guy by the name of Barnabus
Sears in Chicago. He is the attorney that was appointed to
prosecute the killing of those blacks by the police - you know
the thing in Chicago? And prosecuted in Chicago police
officers who allegedly, you know, (unintelligible). Barney
Sears is a past president of the House of Delegates of the
American Bar Association, a "distinguished" lawyer and you
know, has all those - and credentials. He's a very, he's a
very independent person. It has one aspect of it that you
people realize, but Sears and I have been close friends for
twenty-two years. (unintelligible) labor case with Motorola
back in the early days. Barney Sears came in at one point and
another guy.
Pres. Nixon: So what would you do? He'd come in and learn the whole case?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah what he would really do - he'd keep Silbert, Titus and
Petersen in place and as they progress with the ease instead of
having the ultimate prosecutor responsibility in me he'd do
that in this function in that way.
Pres. Nixon: What does that do to Mitchell?
R. Kleindienst: I would say Mitchell will be indicted.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, they're all going to be indicted. Well, that's my point. I
thought, I think if the course just goes like it is they're
going to be indicted. You mean you d have a special prosecutor
immediately? Here's my point, if they're going to indict
anyway that sort of - that shows that (expletive removed) the
thing does work. See that's the thing I wonder. These guys
are crowding in -
Pres. Nixon: Silbert and the rest - they aren't taking any program - we're
not giving them any. You're not giving them any are you?
R. Kleindienst: No.
Pres. Nixon: Another way you can do it - another way you can do this. I
could call in - I'm just thinking out loud. I could call in
Titus and Silbert I'd say, look - you are totally independent
here and you are to tear this case up. Now go to it. See my
point is, you call in a special prosecutor (expletive removed),
he's got to learn the whole damn thing.
R. Kleindienst: You come down to.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: Little fundamental questions - like do you have enough
evidence to go on perjury indictment? When you got one against
one, you know, through the ordinary rules of prosecuting policy
suggest that you try people for perjury.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: Even maybe with - and I think that's just because of the
climate.
Pres. Nixon: Well let me ask you this. Let me think about it Dick.
R. Kleindienst: Oh sure.
Pres. Nixon: You would suggest Sears. I would say Dean - I mean not Dean but
the Dean.
R. Kleindienst: Let's both think about it.
Pres. Nixon: But with the idea that I really feel that I ought - that frankly
I've got to take the leadership on the thing and I ought to go
in and say, look - there's - got the facts and you are to go
forward with this - and I don't care who it touches and that's
it.
R. Kleindienst: Well with respect to the Presidency and I don't presume to
advise you with respect to that Mr. President.
Pres. Nixon: No - I want to know your input.
R. Kleindienst: But I think that you probably would want my views. You
understand I have been up all night long and I might not be as
(unintelligible). It seems to me that if, as a result of
Magruder, Dean (unintelligible) and Hunt.
Pres. Nixon: In belief?
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: This would be direct. Is there enough evidence on Haldeman that
I should, that I should say to him, "look Bob you take a leave
of absence until this thing is cleared up?"
R. Kleindienst: Right now - no - might be any day - that's the question. I
think that your options become reduced each day that this thing
goes on.
Pres. Nixon: What I am getting at is this. Is it also possible that they
don't get enough on Haldeman to indict?
R. Kleindienst: Well, he could be indicted but then at least his
circumstantial participation will presume now with regard -
Pres. Nixon: What about - what about Ehrlichman?
R. Kleindienst: That's a close one - a situation that would occur after they
were arrested based upon the possible projected testimony of
Dean in the case.
Pres. Nixon: How would - I don't see how he would be in it - in what way?
R. Kleindienst: Well, at least now.
Pres. Nixon: What will Dean say about Ehrlichman?
R. Kleindienst: Keep in mind anything that Dean and his attorneys have told
them is a conditional statement. If they don't work something
out it's all withdrawn and it's not going to be used. Keep
that in mind, Mr. President. But Dean intimated two things
with respect to Ehrlichman. One, Dean had in his possession
some documents that were taken out of Hunt's office - that's
number one.
Pres. Nixon: He's told the U. S. Attorney this?
R. Kleindienst: Yes. Other item he issued a directive that - to get Hunt out
of the country. Instances, standing by themselves - nothing
more to say on one side or the other can constitute an
obstruction of justice. They have the hard evidence right now
that would lead to the indictment of John on those two counts.
But it couldn't be tomorrow, two days from now away.
Pres. Nixon: With respect to Bob - Did they tell you -
R. Kleindienst: They
Pres. Nixon: I thought on that?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir. In fact, I've got some notes here
Pres. Nixon: No - Ehrlichman?
R. Kleindienst: He's hooked.
Pres. Nixon: Dean?
R. Kleindienst: Deep six it and get Hunt out of the country.
Pres. Nixon: He said Ehrlichman, John (unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible) before the indictments.
Pres. Nixon: Dean's testified that Ehrlichman told him to do that.
R. Kleindienst: Right.
Pres. Nixon: What Dean - Dean has told 'em, but he hasn't testified?
R. Kleindienst: Right - and that other point about Dean's posture with the
United States Attorney - that's why I wanted to talk to you
about this. That these are conditional statements. If Dean
worked out an arrangement satisfactory to Dean the U. S.
Attorney's office and Dean agree that they are not going to
have knowledge of these statements.
Pres. Nixon: So what would happen?
R. Kleindienst: Well, in the event they don't work something out then Dean
presumably wouldn't testify this way with respect to Ehrlichman
or he might, depending upon what (unintelligible) If they work
something out, probably it would be for the purpose of - no, no
sir. There's going to be no immunity offered.
Pres. Nixon: Well, then why would he get it? Work something out - why?
R. Kleindienst: Well that's - that hasn't been resolved because Dean and his
lawyers are being very, very careful there.
Pres. Nixon: I'm sure.
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible) you get these people facing jail and you
(unintelligible). The point is that.
Pres. Nixon: Haldeman?
R. Kleindienst: Haldeman - they believe this fellow Strachan is just about
ready to (unintelligible) on the face of it.
Pres. Nixon: Some of this - got some of the take in other words. Haldeman
had - if Haldeman was furnished the reports.
R. Kleindienst: Either the reports or papers that would indicate that Liddy
was doing something like this.
Pres. Nixon: Oh - papers?
R. Kleindienst: Apparently there was the sum of three hundred fifty thousand
dollars.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - I know about that. It transferred from the White House
to LaRue.
Pres. Nixon: Right. It That Bob indeed indicated that the transfer of that
money. (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: I think (unintelligible).
R. Kleindienst: Might have just thought that (unintelligible). That would
implicate
Pres. Nixon: That I would think would mean that he had some of it - the
reports from the bugging.
R. Kleindienst: Either the reports or budgetary or -
Pres. Nixon: Oh - even budgetary?
R. Kleindienst: Or program papers that on the face of it would indicate that
Liddy was engaged in an eavesdropping operation and, you know,
that Haldeman would have known about it? So he called and said
something about it but that's yet another thing you've got to
keep in mind.
Pres. Nixon: I don't (unintelligible). It I don't think so either.
Pres. Nixon: Huh? It I don't think he did either.
Pres. Nixon: Haldeman could tell me though - he's a - I'm sure - Bob would
tell me - he's a "don't give a (expletive removed) kind of a
guy" anyway and Ehrlichman would tell me too. The deep six
thing troubles me. Although - what was that? Oh, I know what
that could be - that could be - you see Hunt's operations
before - that's what that is. Hunt worked in the White House,
you know, on some national security matters and I think that's
what that's involved. Not the Watergate.
R. Kleindienst: Let's get back to this concept of the Presidency, sir.
Pres. Nixon: Right
R. Kleindienst: What you do is the right thing to do and then when having
done it then it would be recognized as the right thing.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: And I know - I don't know - but I believe - feel that we
should have - I think the options that you have to consider
there are two. One do you, the President, what I have told you
today, that might be forthcoming. And before that comes out
would you ask 'em to step aside until this whole thing blows
over? If it all blows over - maybe you're not indicted or
culpable. Finally you come back and they do wind up having
been indicted, you at least have off of your personal staff -
those people who are going to be involved in the criminal
justice system. If you don't take that step, and I - really
don't pretend to advise you on it sir - and then if it comes
out, it's leaked out and then you've got to do it after the
disclosure is made publicly, you know, I think it.
Pres. Nixon: Let me ask you this - if it should come to a critical point -
let us suppose - let's suppose the worst. That it do - that it
does come out 00 Haldeman and Strachan with his testimony that
he had papers etc. The question really is basically whether an
individual, you know, can be totally, totally - I mean, the
point is, if a guy isn't guilty, you shouldn't let him go.
R. Kleindienst: That's right - you shouldn't.
Pres. Nixon: It's like me - wait now - let's stand up for people if there -
even though they are under attack.
R. Kleindienst: I know.
Pres. Nixon: In Haldeman's case though - I want to ask you - if you think - I
just want to ask you your opinion. And the same on Ehrlichman
based on this do you think that - where he had no knowledge of
Watergate.
R. Kleindienst: I think neither one of them knew about it before. Just
judging from leads around here and found himself in this
fantastic situation. Could have as a result of his constant
communication with John Dean - with John Dean looking for a way
to save himself could have by the remarks that John made that
would either circumstantially involve him in or be the grounds
for an indictment.
Pres. Nixon: Increase the chances of their being indicted by letting them go?
That's another (unintelligible). When I say let them go, give
them a leave which -
R. Kleindienst: That'd be all right - it's all right.
Pres. Nixon: You find - you find them guilty before they have a chance to
prove their innocence, don't you? And another way you could do
it is this - you could say if that question is raised, you
could move then instantly. You see the point is that - your
suggesting I should do this based on information we have now.
R. Kleindienst: Which is not very good, precise.
Pres. Nixon: That's the point that I am making - and on the basis of this
kind of information.
R. Kleindienst: I don't suggest anything now - I'm just -
Pres. Nixon: No - no - I know - No - I'm just trying - understand - I want to
know what is the right thing to do and understand we are going
to come out of this thing. The Justice Department and the
Presidency are going to come out clean because I don't tolerate
this kind of stuff. But the point is, Dick, I also. I can't -
I can't let an innocent man down. That's my point. It I know
that. What effect does it have on the discharge of let's say
Bob's and Ehrlichman's duties as they'd he the object of
speculation and attack in the press. What effect does it have
upon their being able to discharge their duties?
Pres. Nixon: Well one thing, of course, Bob could put it out first.
R. Kleindienst: The three fifty?
Pres. Nixon: Right. (unintelligible) testimony and the Strachan work and so
forth and so on. In other words, he puts out the story.
That's another one thing - and he puts out the Segretti story
too. I really think that's what he has to do.
R. Kleindienst: Have him appear before the Grand Jury?
Pres. Nixon: Will he be asked?
R. Kleindienst: No - except a punitive defense might ask him.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) here - you don't understand (unintelligible).
R. Kleindienst: The prosecutor doesn't subpoena a punitive defendant - his
attorney doesn't - you know this stuff is going on - now does
your guy want to come in and testify.
Pres. Nixon: You see, I realize that the fellows like up at the Ervin
Committee and now the Grand Jury they're going to smash the
likes of Haldeman all the time but you can't let a guy go -
without a (unintelligible) if he's guilty, if you know he's
innocent.
R. Kleindienst: Right. Let me say what I had to do with this Harry Stewart.
Remember the United States Attorney in San Diego?
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: Was involved in my confirmation hearings. An allegation was
made with respect to his obstructive conduct. It started as an
administrative investigation by the FBI. While the
investigation was going on, Harry Stewart just stepped aside as
the United States Attorney. Then ultimately he went back.
That whole judgment was a process on my part.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
R. Kleindienst: I sharply examined it and the hindsight of this stuff is
fantastic.
Pres. Nixon: What's the name of your man in Chicago?
R. Kleindienst: Barnabus Sears.
Pres. Nixon: I can sure get that down, but I'm going to get that U.S.
Attorney in one way or another.
R. Kleindienst: And I've thought for months that something was wrong.
Pres. Nixon: Sorry to hear you say that. No - that's my problem - what to
do. Poor (expletive removed) - they're all - they've got a
right to a fair trial.
R. Kleindienst: I've tried about two or three thousand in the last twenty
years and I did (unintelligible). The two aspects of this that
have an overriding importance beyond them is the institution of
(unintelligible) and also the criminal justice system.
Pres. Nixon: Right. Only the people have got to have confidence
(unintelligible) and frankly you could come out stronger.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: You just prove that you will take on even your friends.
R. Kleindienst: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: That's what we'll (unintelligible). The only thing that
troubles me about the Haldeman/Ehrlichman, Dick is that - I
don't - I just wonder about - about - moving on them before.
R. Kleindienst: The evidence (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: See what I mean?
R. Kleindienst: Sure, I understand.
Pres. Nixon: That indicates that maybe I know something which I don't.
R. Kleindienst: That's right - nor do I - nor do - all that the government
knows is what I have given you. I think, based upon what
little is now known would be impeded in either. I don't think
that John Ehrlichman should have as an assignment for you
anything further to do with this, though.
Pres. Nixon: Because of the deep six thing?
R. Kleindienst: You know, if it turned out, either through circumstantial
testimony or other testimony which could lead to a possible
indictment that's part of the circumference.
Pres. Nixon: Got to have somebody over here to - the (expletive removed)
thing - what the (expletive removed) do you do?
R. Kleindienst: What do you do?
Pres. Nixon: Garment? He's Mitchell's former law partner. That won't do,
will it?
R. Kleindienst: You know the burden of the (unintelligible) so far as you are
concerned is that you and I would defend him. Anyone else
(unintelligible).
Pres. Nixon: Oh, I understand. Not going to - don't - job to do it - and
this is (unintelligible) Chief Investigator for the Senate
Committee - the (expletive removed) was charged with a felony,
bargaining pleaded for a misdemeanor - got a suspended
sentence.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: For bugging!
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - for bugging.
Pres. Nixon: Same thing - that's what should have happened here.
R. Kleindienst: As a matter of fact, looking at it again, without trying to
determine the impact of it with respect to the election, simple
(unintelligible) the obstruction of justice.
Pres. Nixon: The obstruction of justice is what's bad.
R. Kleindienst: And the perjury - the suborning of witnesses, the perjury and
perjuring yourself.
Pres. Nixon: You don't have Ehrlichman involved in that - you don't have
Haldeman involved in any of that?
R. Kleindienst: No - no. When you get Mitchell and Magruder and Mardian and,
let's say, Dean all having one approach to this problem, and
Magruder over there you're going to have a hard time convicting
John Mitchell, Bob Haldeman, LaRue etc. One of the faults
these lawyers find is that, you know, because they, if this is
true, they will be a (expletive removed) difficult thing to
prove.
Pres. Nixon: There's a chance Mitchell could beat this?
R. Kleindienst: Oh, sure.
Pres. Nixon: You do?
R. Kleindienst: Oh (expletive removed) yes. It all depends on how this other
comes out but, Mr. President, if all you're talking about.
Pres. Nixon: Suppose Liddy, suppose Liddy - what's he going to do?
R. Kleindienst: Now that's something else - now if Liddy comes in and
corroborates Magruder and incidentally they are bitter enemies.
They are bitter enemies.
R. Kleindienst: Magruder is afraid for his life.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah?
R. Kleindienst: Even tried to
Pres. Nixon: Liddy - you say Liddy has told all, has he?
R. Kleindienst: No he hasn't - he hasn't said a word to anybody.
Pres. Nixon: Is that right? Did these guys tell you that?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir. He's taken the fifth.
Pres. Nixon: They said that he's come in and talked to them. They - that's
what there telling everybody.
R. Kleindienst: That's not true, sir.
Pres. Nixon: I mean - if Magruder says that he hasn't?
R. Kleindienst: To my knowledge - I'll check that.
Pres. Nixon: Find out.
R. Kleindienst: Find out but to my knowledge as a result of everything that
was said last night Liddy has not said a word.
Pres. Nixon: What about Hunt?
R. Kleindienst: Hunt doesn't know anything.
Pres. Nixon: He knows about the obstruction of justice - somebody gave him
the money. Isn't that the one where Mrs. Hunt or somebody - I
don't know what that is - I don't know.
R. Kleindienst: You know as much about it as I do.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) say something (unintelligible) and I don't want
to get so deeply involved.
R. Kleindienst: Neither do I and you know from the outset, Mr. President, on
this one, because of all of us who are involved - our
relationship - determined that I was going to have the broadest
kind of an overview. It's just for this very reason I don't
want to right now.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: If Liddy doesn't corroborate Magruder - what Liddy does now
in view of Magruder's case I don't know but inherent in
Magruder
Pres. Nixon: He and Dean are taking Liddy and Magruder. You've got two guys
it's pretty hard for a jury, if you were a good criminal - an
F. Lee Bailey - say, are you going to take the word of these
two men against all these other men, gentlemen?
R. Kleindienst: When you have something besides F. Lee Bailey, but you take
LaRue and Mitchell -
Pres. Nixon: Let me say. - let me say - I only mention F. Lee Bailey because
Mitchell is very close to him now, as you know.
R. Kleindienst: I know that, yeah.
Pres. Nixon: That's probably who he'll use.
R. Kleindienst: I don't know.
Pres. Nixon: I say probably - I'm just guessing - I haven't talked to him
about it, but he and Bailey are - he's going to fight until the
end. He's not going to
R. Kleindienst: I hope he does.
Pres. Nixon: Would you - his relationship and former Attorney General.
R. Kleindienst: And that would be - that would he a trial for him.
Pres. Nixon: Sure. Pitch John Dean take (unintelligible). I was so
surprised.
R. Kleindienst: When Ehrlichman called me last night all he said, mentioned
Magruder. And he said what about informing him if I had any
notice that John Dean had initiated this. I ready don't until
his attorney can negotiate with them.
Pres. Nixon: If Dean does not testify about deep sixing documents and getting
Hunt out of the country they have nobody else that can say
that.
R. Kleindienst: What they want initially.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - will they work out.
R. Kleindienst: I think they'll honor their agreement between them.
Pres. Nixon: Well, as you know, Dean put it out for press.
R. Kleindienst: No - no sir.
Pres. Nixon: They're decent men.
R. Kleindienst: Yes they are.
Pres. Nixon: Good.
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir.
Pres. Nixon: But Dean.
R. Kleindienst: They raised questions whether or not I should even mention
that to you because of the (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: No, (expletive removed) you should tell me.
R. Kleindienst: Oh (expletive removed) I didn't argue with them about that.
That's not anything. I'm going to tell you what I have
learned.
Pres. Nixon: I could call them. Let me run this by you. I think I should
call them and I consider it highest devotion. What I want you
to have (unintelligible) it up here. I think we have - we
haven't denied anybody, (expletive removed). Conducted the
investigation. The FBI's conducted the investigation. I said
I just want you to know that and you're on your own - on your
own. And I am - because Dick Kleindienst was a close associate
of John Mitchell's I want you to report to Dean Sneed. Now
that's the way that I think I should approach it Dick rather
than bringing in a special prosecutor.
R. Kleindienst: I have no objection to that.
Pres. Nixon: Well, without you being there - I don't think they should work
through you anymore due to the fact, although we know you
didn't have a (expletive removed) thing to do with it - nobody
would ever believe - I don't think that.
R. Kleindienst: I could make a fair decision on Mitchell.
Pres. Nixon: On John Mitchell. Just like I wouldn't think I could probably
make a fair one on Haldeman, but you see - don't you think
that's true?
R. Kleindienst: Yes sir.
Pres. Nixon: And I'll - and the way I would do it - I will say, the Attorney
General and I have talked and he recommends this. And I'll
say, we have talked about it and this is the best way to do it.
So we'll put Sneed.
R. Kleindienst: And I think it's a very strong possibility.
Pres. Nixon: You see my point?
R. Kleindienst: The only - there's only two aspects of it that I'm not sure
about. One of those I'm not sure about is Joe Sneed.
Pres. Nixon: I know.
R. Kleindienst: He's - you know.
Pres. Nixon: Well, lets - what the hell - there's really nothing for him to
do except just be honest. They're going to do the job. I know
they're going to do the job.
R. Kleindienst: Second thing, Mr. President, was the other argument that I'm
thinking about. The more believable, more acceptable business,
this other thing. The problem of this thing as the result of
any appointment of you.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: In favor that you might be able to provide later or whether I
could. The credibility aspect of this thing on part of
yourself soon.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - think it's best to handle it rather than doing it -
escalating it - by nine o'clock then it should be done. I have
thought about it and I have made - I have said this and that
and the other thing and that's that.
R. Kleindienst: One aspect of this thing which you can always take and that
is, as the President of the United States, your job is to
enforce the law.
R. Kleindienst: In the case of any, of any investigations and trials - you
know, I mean - now that the time has come as a result of blah,
blah, blah, you know.
Pres. Nixon: Special prosecutor immediately casts a doubt frankly, Dick, on
the whole Justice Department.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - right.
Pres. Nixon: I don't like that.
R. Kleindienst: Neither do I.
Pres. Nixon: But you have - there's not need - you understand, I just don't
like that.
R. Kleindienst: My feeling.
Pres. Nixon: I think - you see the other line would be to say - put sort of a
(unintelligible) you couldn't do this? You mean the Attorney
General has asked - huh?
R. Kleindienst: You might wait to have me recuse in this thing when the
indictments come up. I think if they indict John Mitchell we
can't be criticized for favoritism, you know.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - in other words, you stay in the job.
R. Kleindienst: Until the trial. I don't know, I think this is something we
ought to explore very carefully. In terms of (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: You see, there's where your special prosecutor comes in. You
want the - you go to the special prosecutor for.
R. Kleindienst: No, the special prosecutor would not try the case, Mr.
President. What he would do is substitute himself for the
Attorney General. Silbert would try the case. What he would
do would have overview with respect to what they were doing and
participating in the prosecuting decisions that are made from
time to time. (unintelligible) believe I (unintelligible)
discuss with the - with (unintelligible) might not have it with
the Deputy Attorney General and - so I support him. You know,
I would do it myself.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: And I fully realize by bringing this guy in it's - the effect
has a bad reflection upon me, you know, I understand that -
that is my recommendation.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah. I thought we would - I think we just ought to after your
hard lining the executive privilege I think we ought to make a
deal with the Ervin Committee provided the ground rules are
proper. Do you agree?
R. Kleindienst: Oh sure. Thing about my hard line is, you know,
Pres. Nixon: What you're saying is a bargain - the thing by which you are
going to work that out. I thought we ought to get something
out on that like Monday or Tuesday. That sound good to you?
That's a good - a good way to be on the offensive.
R. Kleindienst: And I, I understand, Mr. President, you have some thought in
mind with respect to John Dean. I would respectfully urge you
not to accept - include John Dean in the package with
(unintelligible) and those people you are.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: Oh yes, (expletive removed) yes, it's better now.
R. Kleindienst: Negotiate with the United States Attorney - I'll tell you - I
don't think.
Pres. Nixon: No - no. I'm putting him up. The only thing I would say is
that - to him - I would say that as President's Counsel
(unintelligible) executive (unintelligible) and all that -
(expletive removed) I wouldn't even (unintelligible). The
Ervin Committee though is going to be as - nothing by the time
this thing.
R. Kleindienst: Oh by the time (unintelligible) we keep it in the criminal
justice system where it belongs.
Pres. Nixon: Where it belongs.
R. Kleindienst: The Ervin Committee.
Pres. Nixon: And incidentally they ought to - whoever is - Silbert ought to
get over there right now and tell the Ervin Committee not to go
shouldn't he?
R. Kleindienst: I don't know.
Pres. Nixon: I (unintelligible). How - how can Mitchell, for example, get a
fair trial with the Ervin Committee leaking all over the place
and so forth and so on. I would - if I were the prosecuting
attorney I'd say to the committee, now keep McCord and all
these (expletive removed). Don't you agree?
R. Kleindienst: Sure - if they'll do it.
Pres. Nixon: I really think as a lawyer - as a criminal - as a - you know, a
smart lawyer for Mitchell and the other defendants could move
to quash.
R. Kleindienst: Well they could get the cases dismissed as a result of this
horsing around with the Ervin Committee.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible) Ervin Committee going after - their
Constitutional rights might be so impaired that they could have
the indictments quashed. That's what. Any litigation
concerning John Mitchell will probably take ten years - you
know a couple of years before the trial, four or five years
appeals, motions, trial. Well I think (unintelligible) and it
could be with John Mitchell.
Pres. Nixon: (expletive removed) I would want to appeal the Chicago Seven,
the Berrigans, and the Ellsbergs and all those (expletive
removed). And they've fooled around all this time. Well it's
a hard thing, Dick, hard thing. These fellows, even the Cubans
- or even perhaps they most of all. They were doing
(unintelligible) they were helping the campaign.
R. Kleindienst: That's right. Sure.
Pres. Nixon: And they just - just showed incredibly bad judgment - right?
R. Kleindienst: It's still a fact, Mr. President, it's been two or three
months, you know, while you were getting your campaign
organization going, and Mitchell was just a puppet. You know
John was in a rather awkward situation being the Attorney
General, having talked to those guys.
Pres. Nixon: And having very troublesome (unintelligible)
R. Kleindienst: Right. Had his own real leadership over there and got
(unintelligible) the situation.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah, Magruder - and Magruder's sort of a lightweight in a very
heavy job.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - and also he had not experience in politics.
Pres. Nixon: That's right. And then so they decided that - gee, this is
great and this is real fun - (expletive removed) - they see.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah.
Pres. Nixon: And incidentally you got to - you see - if Haldeman had been
running it it wouldn't have happened either. But look what the
(expletive removed) he was doing, we were on our way to China
and then we were on our way to Russia.
R. Kleindienst: I know.
Pres. Nixon: We weren't in the campaign - they were. We couldn't and that's
why we had no control. Well, anyway, I'm not making excuses.
The thing to do now is to.
R. Kleindienst: Deal with the facts as you have them.
Pres. Nixon: Go forward.
R. Kleindienst: It would have to be by you, Mr. President.
Pres. Nixon: There's (unintelligible). How about another man that we could
bring down? How about a former Circuit Court Judge like
Lombard?
R. Kleindienst: Well the Chief Justice doesn't like that unless he has
completely retired from the judiciary.
Pres. Nixon: Says he can serve if we gave him an interim appointment?
R. Kleindienst: Yes - yeah.
Pres. Nixon: Seventy-one years of age?
R. Kleindienst: No - no. What you are doing is having a Federal judiciary.
Pres. Nixon: Well it seems to me that's the same.
R. Kleindienst: The Chief Justice thinks this fellow Sears - he's the one who
recommended Sears.
Pres. Nixon: Thinks we should have a special prosecutor?
R. Kleindienst: Yes. He does. Yes.
Pres. Nixon: Now what does he say - now - I want to get some other judgments
because I - I'm open on this. I lean against it and I think
it's too much of a reflection on our system of justice and
everything else.
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - that's.
Pres. Nixon: What is Petersen's reasoning?
R. Kleindienst: Petersen's reasoning would be that I should recuse myself now
that it looks like Mitchell and -
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: rest of the boys.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah - you should do it right now.
R. Kleindienst: And that - yeah - but.
Pres. Nixon: You - now wait - you'd do this? You see, you do it now it's
based on testimony.
R. Kleindienst: When I would do it.
Pres. Nixon: Well let me ask you though, you would do it before the story
broke? Before the indictments or afterwards?
R. Kleindienst: I don't know. We haven't gotten to that point.
Pres. Nixon: Or is it the point that should be done before the indictments
are drawn up so that the indictments are drawn up properly. Is
that the point?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - just so that any aspect of the investigation,
presentation to the Grand Jury and indictments could not
possibly be changed by.
Pres. Nixon: So what would Petersen say - you would withdraw?
R. Kleindienst: Yeah - but that would not be in a public, you know, TV
statement -
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: Internal - administrative.
Pres. Nixon: And then - what would happen?
R. Kleindienst: Well, I would.
Pres. Nixon: What would he advocate?
R. Kleindienst: I would do one of two things under that circumstance - would
be to delegate the responsibility for the entire matter to
Petersen, Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division.
Pres. Nixon: Petersen is the fellow to approach?
R. Kleindienst: Yes he is - yes he is.
Pres. Nixon: Would the - would the country respect him on this?
R. Kleindienst: Yes - he's a (expletive removed) of a guy (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: I didn't - he was - he is a career man - I didn't appoint him in
the first place.
R. Kleindienst: He's the first career Assistant Attorney General I think in
the history of the Department.
Pres. Nixon: O.K.
R. Kleindienst: Sure - but he.
Pres. Nixon: Let's consider that one for a moment.
R. Kleindienst: It could either be Petersen or Sneed.
Pres. Nixon: Petersen would be better than Sneed.
R. Kleindienst: (unintelligible). That would be initially handled by an
administrative document from me to Petersen.
Pres. Nixon: But you do it right now? What you should do in any event, what
you should do right now - let me say, I still think my - I
ought to consider - my suggestion that I call these people in -
maybe with you as a matter of fact and say look I just want you
to work with Petersen and get everything done. Correct? But
let me - let's think about that.
R. Kleindienst: Let's think about that. I think we got to do something
pretty quickly before this stuff gets out of hand. In view of
the disclosure made to me last night and yesterday afternoon by
Ehrlichman I think I've got to do something. I'm now on notice
that Magruder, you know.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
R. Kleindienst: Testified to - that.
Pres. Nixon: That's right - that's why I told Ehrlichman to tell you. I
didn't (unintelligible). In fact he suggested it - he said,
look I've got this stuff. This was even before Magruder talked
to him. I think I should turn over to Kleindienst. I said "do
it." And then the events caught up with us and Magruder came
in, and said, look, I - almost irrelevant. I didn't think
Magruder (unintelligible). So that's why, Dick, why we've been
scrupulous and your record must show that. Been scrupulous,
that Ehrlichman he called you, he called you before Magruder
and afterwards. We didn't wait 'til Magruder -
R. Kleindienst: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: What I should do
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