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$Unique_ID{bob01198} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The April 14, 1973. (11:22pm - 11:53pm)} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{nixon pres ehrlichman say get am yeah sure right etc} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 April 14, 1973. (11:22pm - 11:53pm) Telephone conversation: President Nixon and John Ehrlichman -------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: I just wanted to see what your plans were for tomorrow? J. Ehrlichman: I am going to come in about nine o'clock. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: And see Strachan. Pres. Nixon: Strachan? J. Ehrlichman: And, I have a couple of calls coming in. One from Kalmbach's lawyer and I want to see Dean in the morning also. I've got him coming in and I thought I would see Ziegler if I can work it in. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: I would kind of like to cover several bases. Pres. Nixon: Let me say with Ziegler - the more I think about this, John, I think we ought to give him the full court. I don't think it makes a hell of a lot of difference to say hold on Dean. I would say since these charges have been made I think that the men in the White House staff that have been charged, etc. have a right to be heard publicly and that's that - under certain proper ground rules. J. Ehrlichman: Ok - let me run that by Ron in the morning and get him accommodated to it, the coverage of it. Pres. Nixon: I know, but isn't that really what we should do? J. Ehrlichman: I feel it is. Pres. Nixon: Then you should sort of separate out everything - haggle around and then maybe you could settle the damn thing tomorrow with him. J. Ehrlichman: Alright - I am sure I can on that basis. Pres. Nixon: Say because these charges are just flowing around and leaking etc. - give him hell about that - and that we just can't have that thing. J. Ehrlichman: Alright. Pres. Nixon: I was talking to Bob - and Bob made the point - he said, well just look at what will happen here. In a sense it will be the evening news basically - you know what I mean - they are not going to run it live - not now on the nets. And also there are chances of how much the committee can do, particularly with Mitchell, if he hires somebody - an attorney enjoining - it could go on for a while. But the point is - Bob says you will have either seven minutes of John Chancellor and Weicker interpreting what was said in a secret session or do you want four minutes of that and maybe three minutes of Haldeman? J. Ehrlichman: Well, that is a good point. Pres. Nixon: Is that something to be considered? J. Ehrlichman: It Pres. Nixon: It sure is. At least we get a little piece of it that way. Pres. Nixon: You know - you see a man looking honest and earnest etc., denying it in a public forum - J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, yeah Pres. Nixon: where he just - you know I just have a feeling - J. Ehrlichman: There is something to be said for splitting the time with them. Pres. Nixon: Yes and - J. Ehrlichman: Are you planning to work tomorrow? Pres. Nixon: Well I tell you, - sure, - what I plan to do - I have to do church. J. Ehrlichman: Sure Pres. Nixon: And I have to be around on that in the morning and so I may not get there in the morning. Well, anyway you will be busy all morning. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. I've got Kleindienst. Pres. Nixon: So I will be there in the afternoon around 2 o'clock or so if you want to chat with me, I will be around. J. Ehrlichman: Ok - I'll leave word. Pres. Nixon: We'll see. We'll see. Do your other business, etc. John, too, I wonder if we shouldn't reconsider, if you shouldn't, I mean you have to consider this - rather than having Colson go in there completely blind, give him at least a touch up - or do you think that is too dangerous. J. Ehrlichman: Say that again - I didn't quite hear it. Pres. Nixon: Colson rather than just saying nothing to him, if it isn't just as well to say - look you should know that Magruder is going to testify, etc., or is that dangerous according to Kleindienst? J. Ehrlichman: I'm not so sure. I have to call him anyway tomorrow. He has an urgent call in for me. Ah, I don't think I want to say anything at all to him about John. John, incidentally, I understand, was on CBS News and just hard-lined them. Pres. Nixon: Oh, I agree on John. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: On Magruder that is what I meant. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I can say something very brief. I don't need to indicate that he said anything to me. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, that you understand that he has talked. I mean, not to the Grand Jury but to - J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, I think I could safely go that far. Pres. Nixon: And say that he should know that before he goes, and be prepared. J. Ehrlichman: Friday - I will call him in the morning. Pres. Nixon: Let me put it this way: I do think we owe it to Chuck to at least - J. Ehrlichman: Sure Pres. Nixon: So that he doesn't, I mean, go in there and well frankly on a perjury rag J. Ehrlichman: I understand. I don't think he is in any danger on that but - Pres. Nixon: Why wouldn't he be in any danger, because he's got his story and knows pretty well what he is going to say? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, I think he is pretty pat, but I will talk to him in the morning and give him a cautionary note anyway. Pres. Nixon: This urgent call may be just what we know, or it may be more of something on our friend - J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: What's that other guy - Hunt? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah Pres. Nixon: There isn't a damn thing you can do about that either. J. Ehrlichman: No. I will tell you, I am going to probably see Kleindienst sometime tomorrow and for any reason you don't find me there, that's probably where I am. Pres. Nixon: And with him on the Special Prosecutor, say, look Dick, in view of the fact that the U.S. Attorney is now doing such a thorough job and since there is going to be definite results from it, it would be a terrible reflection on the system of justice. J. Ehrlichman: Right. Pres. Nixon: And this Administration would be in effect admitting that the Justice Department was so corrupt that it couldn't prosecute. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: But if they prosecute a former Attorney General John, what more can you ask? J. Ehrlichman: Pretty loose, pretty independent. Pres. Nixon: I really feel that - J. Ehrlichman: Yeah Pres. Nixon: and that the Special Prosecutor thing can only open other avenues potentially. I don't mean that there is anything you want to cover up, but you know. He will just go through and - J. Ehrlichman: I think it is folly Pres. Nixon: Don't you think so? J. Ehrlichman: Yes sir. Pres. Nixon: Dick could just say that there is a difference of opinion, but this is it. That I have decided it, and that he J. Ehrlichman: He wants to talk to you about it, but I think I can take care of it tomorrow without any problem. Pres. Nixon: But if it is necessary for him to come in and for me to tell him that, I will tell him. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I think I can handle it. Pres. Nixon: Now wait a minute. I am not adverse to it. My feeling frankly is this: that you know I was just thinking tonight as I was making up my notes for this little talk, you know, what the hell, it is a little melodramatic, but it is totally true that what happens in this office in these next four years will probably determine whether there is a chance and it's never been done, that you could have some sort of an uneasy peace for the next 25 years. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: And that's my - whatever legacy we have, hell, it isn't going to be in getting a cesspool for Winnetka, it is going to be there. J. Ehrlichman: Yep, yep. Pres. Nixon: And I just feel that I have to be in a position to be clean and to be forthcoming, etc. This is why I think that on the - J. Ehrlichman: I totally agree with that. Pres. Nixon: Committee, out, etc. etc. J. Ehrlichman: I totally agree with that. Pres. Nixon: Rethink a little bit more about that Haldeman thing. My present thinking, - he raised it himself you know, this business - but I just think you've got to fight for somebody. I don't know. But what is your feeling at the moment? J. Ehrlichman: I don't think he is in that bad shape. I may be kidding myself, but I - Pres. Nixon: The only thing that concerns me is what they said about Strachan, and J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, well - Pres. Nixon: You don't think that relates that closely? J. Ehrlichman: Let me talk with him tomorrow, and just see how much of that we have to swallow. He may object to some of that, and with good basis. So - Pres. Nixon: You've got to figure this too on Magruder. If I could suggest it, Magruder probably believes he is telling what he knows. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: On the other hand, this happened a long time ago, and Magruder is a very facile liar. J. Ehrlichman: Yes. Pres. Nixon: And he could well be thrashing around a bit here and drawing conclusions, etc. etc. J. Ehrlichman: He believes his own story. Pres. Nixon: Yes, what do you think? Because some of this - J. Ehrlichman: Well, I'll tell you. They told me that he was an extremely credible witness. Pres. Nixon: Oh, definitely. J. Ehrlichman: And I can see why. He comes across very sincere, very earnest and very believable. But of course, now you have to balance a lot of what he says. What he says I have no way of corroborating or not corroborating. Pres. Nixon: You have to balance what he says by the fact that he was very believable when he lied. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. That is what I say. Pres. Nixon: Now the question is, how much of this is the truth and how much of it is something he believes to be the truth? J. Ehrlichman: About the only thing I can say is that it sounded credible, but I can't vouch for it obviously. And that's one of the reasons I want to get Gordon in. Pres. Nixon: One last thing. How do you see the Mitchell scenario rolling out, John. Put yourself in his position and just sort of ruminate a bit, and tell me how you see it rolling out. J. Ehrlichman: Well, I would - Pres. Nixon: First, you are convinced he will be indicted, are you? J. Ehrlichman: Yes. Pres. Nixon: You are? J. Ehrlichman: I don't think there is one chance in fifty that he won't be. Pres. Nixon: Alright, now. J. Ehrlichman: The court will open and publish them and he will probably arrange to come down and take delivery of the Pres. Nixon: Indictment? J. Ehrlichman: indictment, and I would guess he will hire F. Lee Bailey. That would be my hunch. Pres. Nixon: Not a bad idea. J. Ehrlichman: He's got one problem in that the firm represents one of the other defendants, but he may be able to get around that. Pres. Nixon: Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: Whoever he gets will immediately move for a change of venue and file 89 motions. Pres. Nixon: Right. Motions to quash - J. Ehrlichman: Sure, sure and - motions to disqualify the judge, attacking the legality of the Grand Jury and everything you could imagine. Pres. Nixon: Won't that take a little time? J. Ehrlichman: Yes sir, you bet it will! My hunch is that the soonest you could get a case like that to trial would be the Fall. September or October - Pres. Nixon: Really? J. Ehrlichman: Something of that kind. Pres. Nixon: That leaves the Committee hanging for a while, I suppose. I don't know whether that is good or not. J. Ehrlichman: Well I don't think they would let the Committee proceed in the meantime. Pres. Nixon: You don't really? J. Ehrlichman: They would use every effort to stop it, and I am just guessing, but just common sense tells me they could stop It. I don't know the law. Pres. Nixon: One long shot, should you talk to Ervin? J. Ehrlichman: Should I? Pres. Nixon: Yes. J. Ehrlichman: Confide in him? Pres. Nixon: (Characterization deleted) J. Ehrlichman: Oh, I don't think so. I can't trust him Pres. Nixon: (Characterization deleted) J. Ehrlichman: No, I can't - I just wouldn't dare. Kleindienst might at some time later. Pres. Nixon: He should make the deal. I think, frankly, let's get off of the damn executive privilege. J. Ehrlichman: Get a little ride on it huh - while we can? Pres. Nixon: Well at least I do think it would cool a little of the Congressional stuff, you know. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: I really do. As I read the Congressional stuff, they say - they can't understand this or that or the other thing. Alright now we are - basically, also, its bold. The President just says there is enough of this nonsense? We are going to fight. You see what I mean? J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh, I get you. Ok, it suits me. Pres. Nixon: It puts the President in the position of being as forthcoming as we can - want the facts out, J. Ehrlichman: Yep Pres. Nixon: And that's that. And I am not concerned about the word backing off, etc. So, sure, we back off and that is the story for about two days. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Really. J. Ehrlichman: I think that is great. Pres. Nixon: We have won lots of things with the Congress. We lose one. But you, in interpreting it, would say we have reached a compromise with the Committee, that we limited it to this, to charges of wrongdoing. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: Right? J. Ehrlichman: And they came along orally on the rules. Pres. Nixon: And the rules now provide adequate protection for executive privilege and so the President says, let them all go. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. I think that's great. Pres. Nixon: But putting in the point that the President directed it and I think the idea that the President has stepped into this thing and has said, let's get this thing done. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: And you go out and say the President says, look we have had enough talk, enough - -------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: But when you are in a battle, if you are going to fight a battle, you are going to fight it to the finish. And the thing about Bob, as I say, is this: I get back to a fundamental point. Is he guilty or is he not? In my view, he is not, you know. J. Ehrlichman: Yep. Pres. Nixon: And if he isn't - even if it means that the whole country and the Congress and all the members of the Senate and House say resign, resign, the President says, No. I will not take a resignation from a man who is innocent That is wrong. That is contrary to our system, and I am going to fight for him. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: If evidence is brought out to the contrary, fine. Then we will take a look at it. J. Ehrlichman: Well, that is another reason for putting his statement out, it seems to me. It is the standard that we are flying, so to speak. Sure, they will shoot at it but if they never hit it, why then there is no room for argument. Pres. Nixon: We can get that statement broadly circulated. What about, incidentally, now, about the drill of frankly telling our own leaders that and getting them maybe charged up a little on this? J. Ehrlichman: Well, I have been doing a little thinking on that. I am not so sure until we wind out the whole judicial process here, that is the Grand Jury process, that you are really going to be in much a position to do that. I will give that some more thought, but - Pres. Nixon: You mean because something is going to come out of the Grand Jury? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah - you have sort of a half-told tale. Pres. Nixon: Well you can say, look, I am speaking just for the White House staff, and they are going to go up and testify. Now fellows, give them a chance. That is what I meant. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh, I get you. Well that at least - sure. Pres. Nixon: And give them a chance. Then you say, they have all given sworn statements on this thing, and we feel that we are due our day in court, etc., etc. J. Ehrlichman: Here's a copy of Haldeman's statement - Pres. Nixon: That's right. Uh, huh. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. We could certainly do that without mailing reference to the other. Pres. Nixon: Including Agnew, etc. J. Ehrlichman: And you could trace the history of our attempt to cooperate with Ervin. Tell them about that. -------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: Fine. Well, John, you have had a hell of a week two weeks. And of course poor Bob is going through the tortures of the damned. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. That family thing is rough. Pres. Nixon: I know the family thing. But apart from the family thing, you know, he is a guy that has just given his life, hours and hours and hours you know, totally selfless and honest and decent. That is another thing! Damn it to hell, I am just about to say. Well you know you get the argument of some, anybody that has been charged against, you should fire them. I mean you can't do that. Or am I wrong? J. Ehrlichman: No, you are right. Pres. Nixon: Well, maybe I am not right. I am asking. They say, clean the boards. Well, is that our system? J. Ehrlichman: Well that isn't a system. You know, that is a machine. That's Pres. Nixon: That's right. I feel, honestly, - I mean, apart from the personal feeling we both have for Bob, don't you? But you know, I raised this myself. One way out is to say, well look, as long as all these guys have been charged, out they go and they can fight this battle and they can return when they get cleared. It is not good, is it? J. Ehrlichman: You know I don't think it is. I don't think that is anyway to run a railroad. I think - Pres. Nixon: I suppose that would probably be the deal of purists. What does Len think on that? Does he think that, or J. Ehrlichman: I don't know. I think you have to show - Pres. Nixon: Well, that is irrelevant - J. Ehrlichman: some heart on the thing. Pres. Nixon: Well, the point is, whatever we say about Harry Truman, etc. while it hurt him a lot of people admired the old bastard for standing by people J. Ehrlichman: Sure Pres. Nixon: who were guilty as hell J. Ehrlichman: Yep Pres. Nixon: and damn it I am that kind of person. I am not one who is going to say, look, while this guy is under attack, I drop him. Is there something to be said for that, or not? J. Ehrlichman: I don't think, number one, I don't think you would gain anything by it. The problem doesn't go away. Pres. Nixon: No they will say, oh, that Nixon's top person, closest man to him, in the office four or five hours a day, and out he goes. Everything must be wrong! J. Ehrlichman: Yep - that is it. That is liking separating Siamese twins. Pres. Nixon: We have done so many good things, you know, which Bob has worked on so arduously, and damn it, so there will be fragments here and there. Well, people make mistakes, but you don't fire a guy for a mistake do you? J. Ehrlichman: No. Pres. Nixon: Not for a well-intentioned mistake. But my whole view of drawing up the line. One point, you are going to talk to Dean? J. Ehrlichman: I am. Pres. Nixon: What are you going to say to him? J. Ehrlichman: I am going to try to get him around a bit. It is going to be delicate. Pres. Nixon: Get him around in what way? J. Ehrlichman: Well to get off this passing the buck business. Pres. Nixon: John, that's - J. Ehrlichman: It is a little touchy and I don't know how far I can go. Pres. Nixon: John, that is not going to help you. Look he has to look down the road to one point that there is only one man who could restore him to the ability to practice law in case things go wrong. He's got to have that in the back of his mind. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: He's got to know that will happen. You don't tell him, but you know and I know that with him and Mitchell there isn't going to be any damn question, be, cause they got a bad rap. -------------------------- Material not related to Presidential actions deleted -------------------------- Pres. Nixon: You say that Dick was really shaken? J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, he was. Pres. Nixon: Damn it, I told him once, I said, Dick, the real target here is Mitchell. He said, oh, no, it can't be! He's got sort of the idea that probably it is Haldeman or Colson. J. Ehrlichman: Well I am sure he is going to call me the first thing in the morning. Pres. Nixon: Yeah, but with him I would be very tough. I would say Dick - just don't mess around they are after Mitchell, and they are going to get him at the present time. At least, that's what our information indicates and so here is where we go. J. Ehrlichman: He is probably doing a little checking with his U.S. Attorney tonight. Pres. Nixon: Would he do that? J. Ehrlichman: Oh sure, sure. He has to make the ultimate prosecution decision, or else he has to delegate it to somebody, so he is entitled to - Pres. Nixon: Your point is that he would delegate it to Dean. I think the Dean is the best one to delegate it to, rather than, John, the suggestion that he resign and then we will put in another Attorney General. That would be a hell of an admission that, that we thought - J. Ehrlichman: He isn't going to want to do that would be my guess. He isn't going to want to resign at this point. Pres. Nixon: He shouldn't. Well, you know, when I come to think about it, basically, he should for other reasons. If we could get the Ellsberg case over, I would just like to get that FBI fellow. Is there anyway at all - you are going to talk to Ziegler - that you can get out the fact that you have conducted a thorough investigation? J. Ehrlichman: We will work on that. I think there is. Pres. Nixon: I think we have to get that out. Don't you? J. Ehrlichman: I think so. Pres. Nixon: The President is calling the signals. J. Ehrlichman: I suspect that somebody is going to put it together. My hunch is the New York Times will. You see, they have the story that Colson was in yesterday. Pres. Nixon: They know that Mitchell was In. J. Ehrlichman: And, of course, all the wires have that Mitchell was in today. So, somebody is going to start stringing all this together. Pres. Nixon: So what would happen? You'd have Ziegler or your self go out and say yes I have seen them? Or you haven't thought that through yet? J. Ehrlichman: I think I wouldn't have to say that I have seen them. We could just say that we have had 8 job of work going on for several weeks. Pres. Nixon: Well you could say that the President, because of the charges that have been made, wanted an independent investigation made and he directed you to make it. You have made an independent investigation of the situation because the President wants it. If there is anybody who is guilty in this thing, he must through the judicial processes be brought to the bar. Is that what you would say? J. Ehrlichman: Or simply to aid you in analyzing the steps that ought to be taken here. You are being asked to do a lot of extraordinary things - Pres. Nixon: You could say the President wants this matter cleaned up, once for all. J. Ehrlichman: Right. Pres. Nixon: It has been hanging around and yakked about. Innocent people have been hurt in the process. Charges have been going around. Now we have a judicial process, and we want this thing finished. J. Ehrlichman: Beyond that, you have had all kinds of Senators and Congressmen calling for the appointment of a Special Commission and all that kind of thing. Pres. Nixon: So you're it. J. Ehrlichman: For you to come to any sort of a judgment on those kinds of proposals, you have to have a pretty clear understanding of the facts. Pres. Nixon: Right. Well, with Dean I think you can talk to him in confidence about a thing like that, don't you? He isn't going to - J. Ehrlichman: I am not sure - I just don't know how much to lean on that reed at the moment. Pres. Nixon: I see. J. Ehrlichman: But I will sound it out. Pres. Nixon: Well you start with the proposition, Dean, the President thinks you have carried a tremendous load, and his affection and loyalty to you is just undiminished. J. Ehrlichman: Alright. Pres. Nixon: And now, let's see where the hell we go. J. Ehrlichman: Uh, huh Pres. Nixon: We can't get the President involved in this. His people, that is one thing. We don't want to cover up, but there are ways. And then he's got to say, for example? You start with him certainly on the business of obstruction of justice. J. Ehrlichman: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Look, John - we need a plan here. And so that LaRue, Mardian and the others - I mean, J. Ehrlichman: Well, I am not sure I can go that far with him. Pres. Nixon: No. He can make the plan up. J. Ehrlichman: I will sound it out. Pres. Nixon: Right. Get a good night's sleep. J. Ehrlichman: Thank you, Sir. Pres. Nixon: I'll bet you do. You know in a way it is a curious thing - not curious at all - but, John, while it is terribly painful, of course, to go to that dinner tonight - while it is painful, I just feel better about getting the damn thing done. Or do you agree? J. Ehrlichman: Absolutely. Pres. Nixon: I mean, after all, it is my job and I don't want the Presidency tarnished, but also I am a law enforcement man. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah. Pres. Nixon: Right. J. Ehrlichman: Yeah, and you have to move on to more important things. Pres. Nixon: Yes, that's right. Ok, boy, see you tomorrow. J. Ehrlichman: Right, sir.