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$Unique_ID{bob01181}
$Pretitle{}
$Title{Nixon Tapes, The
March 21, 1973. (10:12am - 11:55am) - Part 1/2}
$Subtitle{}
$Author{Various}
$Affiliation{}
$Subject{john
dean
nixon
pres
right
liddy
get
now
money
hunt}
$Date{1974}
$Log{}
Title: Nixon Tapes, The
Author: Various
Date: 1974
March 21, 1973. (10:12am - 11:55am) - Part 1/2
Meeting: President Nixon, John Dean and HR Haldeman, Oval Office
Pres. Nixon: Well, sit down, sit down.
John Dean: Good morning.
Pres. Nixon: Well what is the Dean summary of the day about?
John Dean: John caught me on the way out and asked me about why Gray was
holding back on information, if that was under instructions
from us. And it was and it wasn't. It was instructions
proposed by the Attorney General, consistent with your press
conference statement that no further raw data was to be turned
over to the full committee. And that was the extent of it.
And then Gray, himself, who reached the conclusion that no more
information should be turned over, that he had turned over
enough. So this again is Pat Gray making decisions on his own
on how to handle his hearings. He has been totally -
(unintelligible) to take any guidance, any instruction. We
don't know what he is going to do. He is not going to talk
about it. He won't review it, and I don't think he does it to
harm you in any way, sir.
Pres. Nixon: No, he is just quite stubborn and also he isn't very smart. You
know -
John Dean: He is bullheaded.
Pres. Nixon: He is smart in his own way but he's got that typical (expletive
deleted) this is right and I am going to do it.
John Dean: That's why he thinks he is going to be confirmed. He is being his
own man. He is being forthright and honest. He feels he has
turned over too much and so it is conscious decision that he is
harming the Bureau by doing this and so he is not going to.
Pres. Nixon: We have to get the boys off the line that this is because the
White House told him to do this and everything. And also, as I
told Ehrlichman, I don't see why our little boys can't make
something out of the fact that (expletive deleted) this is the
only responsible position that could possibly be made. The FBI
cannot turn over raw files. Has anybody made that point? I
have tried to several times.
John Dean: Sam Ervin has made that point himself. In fact, in reading the
transcript of Gray's hearings, Ervin tried to hold Gray back
from doing what he was doing at the time he did it. I thought
it was very unwise. I don't think that anyone is criticizing
your position on it
Pres. Nixon: Let's make a point that raw files, I mean that point should be
made that we are standing for the rights of innocent
individuals. The American Civil Liberties Union is against it.
We are against it. Hoover had the tradition, and it will
continue to be the tradition. All files are confidential. See
if we can't get someone inspired to put that out. Let them see
what is in one.
John Dean: (expletive deleted) You -
Pres. Nixon: Any further word on Sullivan? Is he still -
John Dean: Yes, he is going to be over to see me today, this morning
someplace, sometime.
Pres. Nixon: As soon as you get that, I will be available to talk to you this
afternoon. I will be busy until about one o'clock. Anytime
you are through I would like to see what it is he has. We've
got something but I would like to see what it is.
John Dean: The reason that I thought we ought to talk this morning is because
in our conversations, I have the impression that you don't know
everything I know and it makes it very difficult for you to
make judgments that only you can make on some of these things
and I thought that -
Pres. Nixon: In other words, I have to know why you feel that we shouldn't
unravel something?
John Dean: Let me give you my overall first.
Pres. Nixon: In other words, your judgment as to where it stands, and where
we will go.
John Dean: I think that there is no doubt about the seriousness of the
problem we've got. We have a cancer within, close to the
Presidency, that is growing. It is growing daily. It's
compounded, growing geometrically now, because it compounds
itself. That will be clear if I, you know, explain some of the
details of why it is. Basically, it is because (1) we are
being blackmailed; (2) People are going to start perjuring
themselves very quickly that have not had to perjure themselves
to protect other people in the line. And there is no assurance
Pres. Nixon: That that won't bust?
John Dean: That that won't bust. So let me give you the sort of basic facts,
talking first about the Watergate; and then about Segretti:
and then about some of the peripheral items that have come up.
First of all on the Watergate: how did it all start, where did
it start? O.K! It started with an instruction to me from Bob
Haldeman to see if we couldn't set up a perfectly legitimate
campaign intelligence operation over at the Re-Election
Committee. Not being in this business, I turned to somebody
who had been in this business, Jack Caulfield. I don't
remember whether you remember Jack or not. He was your
original bodyguard before they had the candidate protection, an
old city policeman.
Pres. Nixon: Yes, I know him.
John Dean: Jack worked for John and then was transferred to my office. I
said Jack come up with a plan that, you know - a normal
infiltration, buying information from secretaries and all that
sort of thing. He did, he put together a plan. It was kicked
around. I went to Ehrlichman with it. I went to Mitchell with
it, and the consensus was that Caulfield was not the man to do
this. In retrospect, that might have been a bad call because
he is an incredibly cautious person and wouldn't have put the
situation where it is today. After rejecting that, they said
we still need something so I was told to look around for
someone who could go over to 1701 and do this. That is when I
came up with Gordon Liddy. They needed a lawyer. Gordon had
an intelligence background from his FBI service. I was aware
of the fact that he had done some extremely sensitive things
for the White House while he had been at the White House and he
had apparently done them well. Going out into Ellsberg's
doctor's office
Pres. Nixon: Oh, yeah.
John Dean: And things like this. He worked with leaks. He tracked these
things down. So the report that I got from Krogh was that he
was a hell of a good man and not only that a good lawyer and
could set up a proper operation. So we talked to Liddy. He
was interested in doing it. I took Liddy over to meet
Mitchell. Mitchell thought highly of him because Mitchell was
partly involved in his coming to the White House to work for
Krogh. Liddy had been at Treasury before that. Then Liddy was
told to put together his plan, you know, how he would run an
intelligence operation. This was after he was hired over there
at the Committee. Magruder called me in January and said I
would like to have you come over and see Liddy's plan.
Pres. Nixon: January of '72?
John Dean: January of '72.
John Dean: "You come over to Mitchell's office and sit in a meeting where
Liddy is going to lay his plan out." I said I don't really
know if I am the man, but if you want me there I will be happy
to. So I came over and Liddy laid out a million dollar plan
that was the most incredible thing I have ever laid my eyes
on: all in codes, and involved black bag operations,
kidnapping, providing prostitutes to weaken the opposition,
bugging, mugging teams. It was just an incredible thing.
Pres. Nixon: Tell me this: Did Mitchell go along -?
John Dean: No, no, not at all, Mitchell just sat there puffing and laughing.
I could tell from - after Liddy left the office I said that is
the most incredible thing I have ever seen. He said I agree.
And so Liddy was told to go back to the drawing board and come
up with something realistic. So there was a second meeting.
They asked me to come over to that. I came into the tail end
of the meeting. I wasn't there for the first part. I don't
know how long the meeting lasted. At this point, they were
discussing again bugging, kidnapping and the like. At this
point I said right in front of everybody, very clearly, I said,
"These are not the sort of things (1) that are ever to be
discussed in the office of the Attorney General of the United
States - that was where he still was - and I am personally
incensed." And I am trying to get Mitchell off the hook. He
is a nice person and doesn't like to have to say no when he is
talking with people he is going to have to work with.
Pres. Nixon: That's right.
John Dean: So I let it be known. I said "You all pack that stuff up and get
it the hell out of here. You just can't talk this way in this
office and you should re-examine your whole thinking."
Pres. Nixon: Who all was present?
John Dean: It was Magruder, Mitchell, Liddy and myself. I came back right
after the meeting and told Bob, "Bob, we have a growing
disaster on our hands if they are thinking this way," and I
said, "The White House has got to stay out of this and I,
frankly, am not going to be involved in it." He said, "I agree
John." I thought at that point that the thing was turned off.
That is the last I heard of it and I thought it was turned off
because it was an absurd proposal.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
John Dean: Liddy - I did have dealings with him afterwards and we never
talked about it. Now that would be hard to believe for some
people, but we never did. That is the fact of the matter.
Pres. Nixon: Well, you were talking with him about other things.
John Dean: We had so many other things.
Pres. Nixon: He had some legal problems too. But you were his advisor, and I
understand you had conversations about the campaign laws, etc.
Haldeman told me that you were handling all of that for us. Go
ahead.
John Dean: Now. So Liddy went back after that and was over at 1701, the
Committee, and this is where I come into having put the pieces
together after the fact as to what I can put together about
what happened. Liddy sat over there and tried to come up with
another plan that he could sell. (1) They were talking to him,
telling him that he was putting too much money in it. I don't
think they were discounting the illegal points. Jeb is not a
lawyer. He did not know whether this is the way the game was
played and what it was all about. They came up, apparently,
with another plan, but they couldn't get it approved by anybody
over there. So Liddy and Hunt apparently came to see Chuck
Colson, and Chuck Colson picked up the telephone and called
Magruder and said, "You all either fish or cut bait. This is
absurd to have these guys over there and not using them. If
you are not going to use them, I may use them." Things of this
nature.
Pres. Nixon: When was this?
John Dean: This was apparently in February of '72.
Pres. Nixon: Did Colson know what they were talking about?
John Dean: I can only assume, because of his close relationship - with Hunt,
that he had a damn good idea what they were talking about, a
damn good idea. He would probably deny it today and probably
get away with denying it. But I still - unless Hunt blows on
him -
Pres. Nixon: But then Hunt isn't enough. It takes two doesn't it?
John Dean: Probably. Probably. But Liddy was there also and if Liddy were
to blow -
Pres. Nixon: Then you have a problem - I was saying as to the criminal
liability in the White House.
John Dean: I will go back over that, and take out any of the soft spots.
Pres. Nixon: Colson, you think was the person who pushed?
John Dean: I think he helped to get the thing off the dime. Now something
else occurred though -
Pres. Nixon: Did Colson - had he talked to anybody here?
John Dean: No. I think this was
Pres. Nixon: Did he talk with Haldeman?
John Dean: No, I don't think so. But here is the next thing that comes in
the chain. I think Bob was assuming, that they had something
that was proper over there, some intelligence gathering
operation that Liddy was operating. And through Strachan, who
was his tickler, he started pushing them to get some
information and they - Magruder - took that as a signal to
probably go to Mitchell and to say, "They are pushing us like
crazy for this from the White House. And so Mitchell probably
puffed on his pipe and said, "Go ahead," and never really
reflected on what it was all about. So they had some plan that
obviously had, I gather, different targets they were going to
go after. They were going to infiltrate, and bug, and do all
this sort of thing to a lot of these targets. This is
knowledge I have after the fact. Apparently after they had
initially broken in and bugged the DNC they were getting
information. The information was coming over here to Strachan
and some of it was given to Haldeman, there is no doubt about
it.
Pres. Nixon: Did he know where it was coming from?
John Dean: I don't really know if he would.
Pres. Nixon: Not necessarily?
John Dean: Not necessarily. Strachan knew it. There is no doubt about it,
and whether Strachan - I have never come to press these people
on these points because it hurts them to give up that next
inch, so I had to piece things together. Strachan was aware of
receiving information, reporting to Bob. At one point Bob even
gave instructions to change their capabilities from Muskie to
McGovern, and passed this back through Strachan to Magruder and
apparently to Liddy. And Liddy was starting to make
arrangements to go in and bug the McGovern operation.
Pres. Nixon: They had never bugged Muskie, though, did they?
John Dean: No, they hadn't, but they had infiltrated it by a secretary.
Pres. Nixon: By a secretary?
John Dean: By a secretary and a chauffeur. There is nothing illegal about
that. So the information was coming over here and then I,
finally, after -. The next point in time that I became aware
of anything was on June 17th when I got the word that there had
been this break in at the DNC and somebody from our Committee
had been caught in the DNC. And I said, "Oh, (expletive
deleted)." You know, eventually putting the pieces together -
Pres. Nixon: You knew what it was.
John Dean: I knew who it was. So I called Liddy on Monday morning and said,
"First, Gordon, I want to know whether anybody in the White
House was involved in this." And he said, "No, they weren't."
I said, "Well I want to know how in (adjective deleted) name
this happened." He said, "Well, I was pushed without mercy by
Magruder to get in there and to get more information. That the
information was not satisfactory. That Magruder said, 'The
White House is not happy with what we are getting.'"
Pres. Nixon: The White House?
John Dean: The White House. Yeah!
Pres. Nixon: Who do you think was pushing him?
John Dean: Well, I think it was probably Strachan thinking that Bob wanted
things, because I have seen that happen on other occasions
where things have said to have been of very prime importance
when they really weren't.
Pres. Nixon: Why at that point in time I wonder? I am just trying to think.
We had just finished the Moscow trip. The Democrats had just
nominated McGovern. I mean, (expletive deleted), what in the
hell were these people doing? I can see their doing it
earlier. I can see the pressures, but I don't see why all the
pressure was on then.
John Dean: I don't know, other than the fact that they might have been
looking for information about the conventions.
Pres. Nixon: That's right.
John Dean: Because, I understand that after the fact that there was a plan to
bug Larry O'Brien's suite down in Florida. So Liddy told me
that this is what had happened and this is why it had happened.
Pres. Nixon: Where did he learn that there were plans to bug Larry O'Brien's
suite?
John Dean: From Magruder, long after the fact.
Pres. Nixon: Magruder is (unintelligible)
John Dean: Yeah. Magruder is totally knowledgeable on the whole thing.
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
John Dean: Alright now, we have gone through the trial. I don't know if
Mitchell has perjured himself in the Grand Jury or not.
Pres. Nixon: Who?
John Dean: Mitchell. I don't know how much knowledge he actually had. I
know that Magruder has perjured himself in the Grand Jury. I
know that Porter has perjured himself in the Grand Jury.
Pres. Nixon: Who is Porter? (unintelligible)
John Dean: He is one of Magruder's deputies. They set up this scenario which
they ran by me. They said, "How about this?" I said, "I don't
know. If this is what you are - doing to hang on, fine."
Pres. Nixon: What did they say in the Grand Jury?
John Dean: They said, as they said before the trial in the Grand Jury, that
Liddy had come over as Counsel and we knew he had these
capacities to do legitimate intelligence. We had no idea what
he was doing. He was given an authorization of $250,000 to
collect information, because our surrogates were out on the
road. They had no protection, and we had information that
there were going to be demonstrations against them, and that we
had to have a plan as to what liabilities they were going to be
confronted with and Liddy was charged with doing this. We had
no knowledge that he was going to bug the DNC.
Pres. Nixon: The point is, that is not true?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Magruder did know it was going to take place?
John Dean: Magruder gave the instructions to be back in the DNC.
Pres. Nixon: He did?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: You know that?
John Dean: Yes.
Pres. Nixon: I see. O.K.
John Dean: I honestly believe that no one over here knew that. I know that
as God is my maker, I had no knowledge that they were going to
do this.
Pres. Nixon: Bob didn't either, or wouldn't have known that either. You are
not the issue involved. Had Bob known, he would be.
John Dean: Bob - I don't believe specifically knew that they were going in
there.
Pres. Nixon: I don't think so.
John Dean: I don't think he did. I think he knew that there was a capacity
to do this but he was not given the specific direction.
Pres. Nixon: Did Strachan know?
John Dean: I think Strachan did know.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) Going back into the DNC - Hunt, etc. - this is
not understandable.
John Dean: So - those people are in trouble as a result of the Grand Jury and
the trial. Mitchell, of course, was never called during the
trial. Now -
Pres. Nixon: Mitchell has given a sworn statement, hasn't he?
John Dean: Yes, Sir.
Pres. Nixon: To the Jury?
John Dean: To the Grand Jury. -
Pres. Nixon: You mean the Goldberg arrangement?
John Dean: We had an arrangement whereby he went down with several of them,
because of the heat of this thing and the implications on the
election, we made an arrangement where they could quietly go
into the Department of Justice and have one of the assistant
U.S. Attorneys take their testimony and then read it before the
Grand Jury.
Pres. Nixon: I thought Mitchell went.
John Dean: That's right, Mitchell was actually called before the Grand Jury.
The Grand Jury would not settle for less, because the jurors
wanted him.
Pres. Nixon: And he went?
John Dean: And he went.
Pres. Nixon: Good!
John Dean: I don't know what he said. I have never seen a transcript of the
Grand Jury. Now what has happened post June 17? I was under
pretty clear instructions not to investigate this, but this
could have been disastrous on the electorate if all hell had
broken loose. I worked on a theory of containment -
Pres. Nixon: Sure.
John Dean: To try to hold it right where it was.
Pres. Nixon: Right.
John Dean: There is no doubt that I was totally aware of what the Bureau was
doing at all times. I was totally aware of what the Grand Jury
was doing. I knew what witnesses were going to be called. I
knew what they were asked, and I had to.
Pres. Nixon: Why did Petersen play the game so straight with us?
John Dean: Because Petersen is a soldier. He kept me informed. He told me
when we had problems, where we had problems and the like. He
believes in you and he believes in this Administration. This
Administration has made him. I don't think he has done
anything improper, but he did make sure that the investigation
was narrowed down to the very, very fine criminal thing which
was a break for us. There is no doubt about it.
Pres. Nixon: Do you honestly feel that he did an adequate job?
John Dean: They ran that investigation out to the fullest extend they could
follow a lead and that was it.
Pres. Nixon: But the way point is, where I suppose he could be criticized for
not doing an adequate job. Why didn't he call Haldeman? Why
didn't he get a statement from Colson? Oh, they did get
Colson!
John Dean: That's right. But as based on their FBI interviews, there was no
reason to follow up. There were no leads there. Colson said,
"I have no knowledge of this" to the FBI. Strachan said, "I
have no knowledge." They didn't ask Strachan any questions
about Watergate. They asked him about Segretti. They said,
"what is your connection with Liddy?" Strachan just said,
"Well, I met him over there." They never really pressed him.
Strachan appeared, as a result of some coaching, to be the
dumbest paper pusher in the bowels of the White House.
Pres. Nixon: I understand.
John Dean: Alright. Now post June 17th: These guys immediately - It is very
interesting. (Dean sort of chuckled) Liddy, for example, on the
Friday before - I guess it was on the 15th, no, the 16th of
June - had been in Henry Petersen's office with another member
of my staff on campaign compliance problems. After the
incident, he ran Kleindienst down at Burning Tree Country Club
and told him "you've got to get my men out of jail."
Kleindienst said, "You get the hell out of here, kid. Whatever
you have to say, just say to somebody else. Don't bother me."
But this has never come up. Liddy said if they all got counsel
instantly and said we will ride this thing out. Alright, then
they started making demands. "We have to have attorneys fees.
We don't have any money ourselves, and you are asking us to
take this through the election." Alright, so arrangements were
made through Mitchell, initiating it. And I was present in
discussions where these guys had to be taken care of. The
attorneys fees had to be done. Kalmbach was brought in.
Kalmbach raised some cash.
Pres. Nixon: They put that under the cover of a Cuban Committee, I suppose?
John Dean: Well, they had a Cuban Committee and they had - some of it was
given to Hunt's lawyer, who in turn passed it out. You know,
when Hunt's wife was flying to Chicago with $10,000 she was
actually, I understand after the fact now, was going to pass
that money to one of the Cubans - to meet him in Chicago and
pass it to somebody there.
Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) but I would certainly keep that cover for
whatever it is worth.
John Dean: That's the most troublesome post-thing because (1) Bob is involved
in that; (2) Jolin is involved in that; (3) I am involved in
that; (4) Mitchell is involved in that. And that is an
obstruction of justice.
Pres. Nixon: In other words the bad it does. You were taking care of
witnesses. How did Bob get in it?
John Dean: Well, they ran out of money over there. Bob bad $350,000 in a
safe over here that was really set aside for polling purposes.
And there was no other source of money, so they came over and
said you all have got to give us some money. I had to go to
Bob and say, "Bob, they need some money over there." He said
"What for." So I had to tell him what it was for because he
wasn't just about to send money over there willy-nilly. And
John was involved in those discussions. And then we decided
there was no price too high to pay to let this thing blow up in
front of the election.
Pres. Nixon: I think we should be able to handle that issue pretty well. May
be some lawsuits.
John Dean: I think we can too. Here is what is happening right now. What
sort of brings matters to the (unintelligible). One, this is
going to be a continual blackmail operation by Hunt and Liddy
and the Cubans. No doubt about it. And McCord, who is another
one involved. McCord has asked for nothing. McCord did ask to
meet with somebody, with Jack Caulfield who is his old friend
who had written him hired over there. And when Caulfield had
him hired, he was a perfectly legitimate security man. And he
wanted to talk about commutation, and things like that. And as
you know Colson has talked indirectly to Hunt about
commutation. All of these things are bad, in that they are
problems, they are promises, they are commitments. They are
the very sort of thing that the Senate is going to be looking
most for. I don't think they can find them, frankly.
Pres. Nixon: Pretty hard.
John Dean: Pretty hard. Damn hard. It's all cash.
Pres. Nixon: Pretty hard I mean as far as the witnesses are concerned.
John Dean: Alright, now, the blackmail is continuing. Hunt called one of the
lawyers from the Re-Election Committee on last Friday to leave
it with him over the weekend. The guy came in to see me to
give a message directly to me. From Hunt to me.
Pres. Nixon: Is Hunt out on bail?
John Dean: Pardon?
Pres. Nixon: Is Hunt on bail?
John Dean: Hunt is on bail. Correct. Hunt now is demanding another $72,000
for his own personal expenses; another $50,000 to pay attorneys
fees; $120,000. Some (1) he wanted it as of the close of
business yesterday. He said, "I am going to be sentenced on
Friday, and I've got to get my financial affairs in order." I
told this fellow O'Brien, "If you want money, you came to the
wrong man, fellow. I am not involved in the money. I don't
know a thing about it. I can't help you. You better scramble
about elsewhere." O'Brien is a ball player. He carried
tremendous water for us.
Pres. Nixon: He isn't Hunt's lawyer?
John Dean: No he is our lawyer at the Re-Election Committee.
Pres. Nixon: I see.
John Dean: So he is safe. There is no problem there. So it raises the whole
question. Hunt has now made a direct threat against
Ehrlichman. As a result of this, this is his blackmail. He
says, "I will bring John Ehrlichman down to his knees and put
him in jail. I have done enough seamy things for he and Krogh,
they'll never survive it."
Pres. Nixon: Was he talking about Ellsberg?
John Dean: Ellsberg, and apparently some other things. I don't know the full
extent of it.
Pres. Nixon: I don't know about anything else.
John Dean: I don't know either, and I hate to learn some of these things. So
that is that situation. Now, where are at the soft points?
How many people know about this? Well, let me go one step
further in this whole thing. The Cubans that were used in the
Watergate were also the same Cubans that Hunt and Liddy used
for this California Ellsberg thing, for the break in out there.
So they are aware of that. How high their knowledge is, is
something else. Hunt and Liddy, of course, are totally aware
of it, of the fact that it is right out of the White House.
Pres. Nixon: I don't know what the hell we did that for!
John Dean: I don't know either.
Pres. Nixon: What in the (expletive deleted) caused this? (unintelligible)
John Dean: Mr. President, there have been a couple of things around here that
I have gotten wind of. At one time there was a desire to do a
second story job on the Brookings Institute where they had the
Pentagon papers. Now I flew to California because I was told
that John had instructed it and he said, "I really hadn't. It
is a misimpression, but for (expletive deleted), turn it off."
So I did. I came back and turned it off. The risk is minimal
and the pain is fantastic. It is something with a
(unintelligible) risk and no gain. It is just not worth it.
But - who knows about all this now? You've got the Cubans'
lawyer, a man by the name of Rothblatt, who is a no good,
publicity seeking (characterization deleted), to be very frank
with you. He has had to be pruned down and tuned off. He was
canned by his own people because they didn't trust him. He
didn't want them to plead guilty. He wants to represent them
before the Senate. So F. Lee Bailey, who was a partner of one
of the men representing McCord, got in and cooled Rothblatt
down. So that means that F. Lee Bailey has knowledge. Hunt's
lawyer, a man by the name of Bittmann, who is an excellent
criminal lawyer from the Democratic era of Bobby Kennedy, he's
got knowledge.
Pres. Nixon: He's got some knowledge?
John Dean: Well, all the direct knowledge that Hunt and Liddy have, as well
as all the hearsay they have. You have these two lawyers over
at the Re-Election Committee who did an investigation to find
out the facts. Slowly, they got the whole picture. They are
solid.
Pres. Nixon: But they know?
John Dean: But they know. You've got, then an awful lot of the principals
involved who know. Some people's wives know. Mrs. Hunt was
the savviest woman in the world. She had the whole picture
together.
Pres. Nixon: Did she?
John Dean: Yes. Apparently, she was the pillar of strength in that family
before the death.
Pres. Nixon: Great sadness. As a matter of fact, there was a discussion with
somebody about Hunt's problem on account of his wife and I
said, of course commutation could be considered on the basis of
his wife's death, and that is the only conversation I ever had
in that light.
John Dean: Right.
John Dean: So that is it. That is the extent of the knowledge. So where are
the soft spots on this? Well, first of all, there is the
problem of the continued blackmail which will not only go on
now, but it will go on while these people are in prison, and it
will compound the obstruction of justice situation. It will
cost money. It is dangerous. People around here are not pros
at this sort of thing. This is the sort of thing Mafia people
can do: washing money, getting clean money, and things like
that. We just don't know about those things, because we are
not criminals and not used to dealing in that business.
Pres. Nixon: That's right.
John Dean: It is a tough thing to know how to do.
Pres. Nixon: Maybe it takes a gang to do that.
John Dean: That's right. There is a real problem as to whether we could even
do it. Plus there is a real problem in raising money.
Mitchell has been working on raising some money. He is one of
the ones with the most to lose. But there is no denying the
fact that the White House, in Ehrlichman, Haldeman and Dean are
involved in some of the early money decisions.
Pres. Nixon: How much money do you need?
John Dean: I would say these people are going to cost a million dollars over
the next two years.
Pres. Nixon: We could get that. On the money, if you need the money you
could get that. You could get a million dollars. You could
get it in cash. I know where it could be gotten. It is not
easy, but it could be done. But the question is who the hell
would handle it? Any ideas on that?
John Dean: That's right. Well, I think that is something that Mitchell ought
to be charged with.
Pres. Nixon: I would think so too.
John Dean: And get some pros to help him.
Pres. Nixon: Let me say there shouldn't be a lot of people running around
getting money -
John Dean: Well he's got one person doing it who I am not sure is -
Pres. Nixon: Who is that?
John Dean: He has Fred LaRue doing it. Now Fred started out going out trying
to solicit money from all kinds of people.
Pres. Nixon: No!
John Dean: I had learned about it, and I said, "(expletive deleted) It is
just awful! Don't do it!" People are going to ask what the
money is for. He has apparently talked to Tom Pappas.
Pres. Nixon: I know.
John Dean: And Pappas has agreed to come up with a sizeable amount, I gather.
Pres. Nixon: What do you think? You don't need a million right away, but you
need a million? Is that right?
John Dean: That is right.
Pres. Nixon: You need it in cash don't you? I am just thinking out loud here
for a moment. Would you put that through the Cuban Committee:
John Dean: No.
Pres. Nixon: It is going to be checks, cash money, etc. How if that ever
comes out, are you going to handle it? Is the Cuban Committee
an obstruction of justice, if they want to help?
John Dean: Well they have priests in it.
Pres. Nixon: Would that give a little bit of a cover?
John Dean: That would give some for the Cubans and possibly Hunt. Then
you've got Liddy. McCord is not accepting any money. So he is
not a bought man right now.
Pres. Nixon: OK. Go ahead.
John Dean: Let me continue a little bit right here now. When I say this is a
growing cancer, I say it for reasons like this. Bud Krogh, in
his testimony before the Grand Jury, was forced to perjure
himself. He is haunted by it. Bud said, "I have not had a
pleasant day on my job." He said, "I told my wife all about
this. The curtain may ring down one of these days, and I may
have to face the music, which I am perfectly willing to do."
Pres. Nixon: What did he perjure himself on, John?
John Dean: Did he know the Cubans. He did.
Pres. Nixon: He said he didn't?
John Dean: That is right. They didn't press him hard.
Pres. Nixon: He might be able to - I am just trying to think. Perjury is an
awful hard rap to prove. If he could just say that I - Well,
go ahead.
John Dean: Well, so that is one perjury. Mitchell and Magruder are potential
perjurers. There is always the possibility of any one of these
individuals blowing. Hunt. Liddy. Liddy is in jail right
now, serving his time and having a good time right now. I
think Liddy in his own bizarre way the strongest of all of
them. So there is that possibility.
Pres. Nixon: Your major guy to keep under control is Hunt?
John Dean: That is right.
Pres. Nixon: I think. Does he know a lot?
John Dean: He knows so much. He could sink Chuck Colson. Apparently he is
quite distressed with Colson. He thinks Colson has abandoned
him. Colson was to meet with him when he was out there after,
you know, he had left the White House. He met with him through
his lawyer. Hunt raised the question he wanted money. Colson's
lawyer told him Colson wasn't doing anything with money. Hunt
took offense with that immediately, and felt Colson had
abandoned him.
Pres. Nixon: Just looking at the immediate problem, don't you think you have
to handle Hunt's financial situation damn soon
John Dean: I think that is - I talked with Mitchell about that last night and
-
Pres. Nixon: It seems to me we have to keep the cap on the bottle that much,
or we don't have any options.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Either that or it all blows right now?
John Dean: That's the question.
Pres. Nixon: We have Hunt, Krogh. Well go ahead with the other ones.
John Dean: Now we've got Kalmbach. Kalmbach received, at the close of the
'68 campaign in January of 1969, he got a million $700,000 to
be custodian for. That came down from New York, and was placed
in safe deposit boxes here. Some other people were on the
boxes. And ultimately, the money was taken out to California.
Alright, there is knowledge of the fact that he did start with
a million seven. Several people know this. Now since 1969, he
has spent a good deal of this money and accounting for it is
going to be very difficult for Herb. For example, he has spent
close to $500,000 on private polling. That opens up a whole
new thing. It is not illegal, but more of the same thing.
Pres. Nixon: Everybody does polling.
John Dean: That's right. There is nothing criminal about it. It's private
polling.
Pres. Nixon: People have done private polling all through the years. There
is nothing improper.
John Dean: That's right. He sent $400,000, as he has described to me,
somewhere in the South for another candidate. I assume this
was 400,000 that went to Wallace.
Pres. Nixon: Wallace?
John Dean: Right. He has maintained a man who I only know by the name of
"Tony," who is the fellow who did the Chappaquidick study.
Pres. Nixon: I know about that.
John Dean: And other odd jobs like that. Nothing illegal, but closer. I
don't know of anything that Herb has done that is illegal,
other than the fact that he doesn't want to blow the whistle on
a lot of people, and may find himself in a perjury situation.
Well, what will happen when they call him up there - and he has
no immunity? They will say, "How did you pay Mr. Segretti?"
He will say, "Well, I had cash on hand." "How much cash did you
have on hand?" Where does it go from there? Where did you get
the cash? A full series of questions. His bank records
indicate he had cash on hand, because some of these were set up
in trustee accounts.
Pres. Nixon: How would you handle him, John, for example? Would you just
have him put the whole thing out? I don't mind the $500,000
and $400,000.
John Dean: No - that doesn't bother me either. As I say, Herb's problems are
politically embarrassing, but not criminal.
Pres. Nixon: Well he just handled matters between campaigns. These were
surveys etc., etc. There is no need to account for that.
There is no law that requires his accounting for that.
John Dean: Ah, now -
Pres. Nixon: Sources of money. There is no illegality in having a surplus in
cash after a campaign.
John Dean: No, the money - it has always been argued by Stans that it came in
the pre-convention primary for the 1968 race, and it was just
set aside. That all can be explained.
Pres. Nixon: How about the other probabilities?
John Dean: We have a runaway Grand Jury up in the Southern District. They
are after Mitchell and Stans on some sort of bribe or influence
peddling with Vesco. They are also going to try to drag
Ehrlichman into that. Apparently Ehrlichman had some meetings
with Vesco, also. Don Nixon, Jr. came in to see John a couple
of times about the problem.
Pres. Nixon: Not about Vesco, but about Don, Jr.? Ehrlichman never did
anything for Vesco?
John Dean: No one at the White House has done anything for Vesco.
Pres. Nixon: Well Ehrlichman doesn't have to appear there?
John Dean: Before that Grand Jury? Yes he could very well.
Pres. Nixon: He couldn't use Executive Privilege?
John Dean: Not really. Criminal charge, that is a little different. That
would be dynamite to try to defend that.
Pres. Nixon: Use the Flanigan analogy?
John Dean: Right! That's pretty much the overall picture. And probably the
most troublesome thing is the Segretti thing. Let's get down
to that. Bob has indicated to me that he has told you a lot of
it, that he, indeed did authorize it. He did not authorize
anything like ultimately evolved. He was aware of it. He was
aware that Chapin and Strachan were looking for somebody.
Again, this is one that has potential that Dwight Chapin should
have a felony in this. He has to disprove a negative. The
negative is that he didn't control and direct Segretti.
Pres. Nixon: Wouldn't the felony be perjury again?
John Dean: No, the felony in this instance would be a potential use of one of
the civil rights statutes, where anybody who interferes with
the campaign of a candidate for national office.
Pres. Nixon: Why isn't it under civil rights statutes for these clowns
demonstrating against us?
John Dean: I have argued for that very purpose.
Pres. Nixon: Really?
John Dean: Yes, I have.
Pres. Nixon: We were closer - nuts interfering with the campaign.
John Dean: That is exactly right.
Pres. Nixon: I have been sick about that because it is so bad the way it has
been put out on the PR side. It has ended up on the PR side
very confused.
John Dean: What really bothers me is this growing situation. As I say, it is
growing because of the continued need to provide support for
the Watergate people who are going to hold us up for everything
we've got, and the need for some people to perjure themselves
as they do down the road here. If this thing ever blows, then
we are m a cover up situation. I think it would be extremely
damaging to you and the
Pres. Nixon: Sure. The whole concept of Administration justice. Which we
cannot have!
John Dean: That is what really troubles me. For example, what happens if it
starts breaking, and they do find a criminal case against a
Haldeman, a Dean, a Mitchell, an Ehrlichman? That is -
Pres. Nixon: If it really comes down to that, we would have to
(unintelligible) some of the men.
John Dean: That's right. I am coming down to what I really think, is that
Bob and John and John Mitchell and I can sit down and spend a
day, or however long, to figure out one, how this can be carved
away from you, so that it does not damage you or the
Presidency. It just can't! You are not involved in it and it
is something you shouldn't -
Pres. Nixon: That is true!
John Dean: I know, sir. I can just tell from our conversation that these are
things that you have no knowledge of.
Pres. Nixon: You certainly can! Buggings, etc! Let me say I am keenly aware
of the fact Colson, et al., were doing their best to get
information as we went along. But they all knew very well they
were supposed to comply with the law. There was no question
about that! You feel that really the trigger man was really
Colson on this then?
John Dean: No, was one of us. He was just in the chain. He helped push the
thing.
Pres. Nixon: All I know about is the time of ITT, he was trying get something
going there because ITT was giving us a bad time.
John Dean: I know he used Hunt.
Pres. Nixon: I knew about that. I didn't know about it, but I knew there was
something going on. But I didn't know it was a Hunt.
John Dean: What really troubles me is one, will this thing not break some day
and the whole thing - domino situation - everything starts
crumbling, fingers will be pointing. Bob will be accused of
things he has never heard of and deny and try to disprove it.
It will get real nasty and just be 8 real bad situation. And
the person who will be hurt by it most will be you and the
Presidency, and I just don't think -
Pres. Nixon: First, because I am an executive I am supposed to check these
things.
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Let's come back to this problem. What are your feelings
yourself, John? You know what they are all saying. What are
your feelings about the chances?
John Dean: I am not confident that we can ride through this. I think there
are soft spots.
Pres. Nixon: You used to be
John Dean: I am not comfortable for this reason. I have noticed of recent -
since the publicity has increased on this thing again, with the
Gray hearings, that everybody is now starting to watch after
their behind. Everyone is getting their own counsel. More
counsel are getting involved. How do I protect my ass.
Pres. Nixon: They are scared.
John Dean: That is bad. We were able to hold it for a long time. Another
thing is that my facility to deal with the multitude of people
I have been dealing with has been hampered because of Gray's
blowing me up into the front page.
Pres. Nixon: Your cover is broken?
John Dean: That's right and its -
Pres. Nixon: So what you really come to is what we do. Let's suppose that
you and Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Mitchell say we can't hold
this? What then are you going to say? What are you going to
put out after it. Complete disclosure, isn't that the best way
to do it?
John Dean: Well, one way to do it is -
Pres. Nixon: That would be my view.
John Dean: One way to do it is for you to tell the Attorney General that you
finally know. Really, this is the first time you are getting
all the pieces together.
Pres. Nixon: Ask for another Grand Jury?
John Dean: Ask for another Grand Jury. The way it should be done though, is
a way - for example, I think that we could avoid criminal
liability for countless people and the ones that did get it
could be minimal.
Pres. Nixon: How?
John Dean: Well, I think by just thinking it all through first as to how.
You know, some people could be granted immunity.
Pres. Nixon: Like Magruder?
John Dean: Yeah. To come forward. But some people are going to have to go
to jail. That is the long and short of it, also.
Pres. Nixon: Who? Let's talk about -
John Dean: Alright. I think I could. For one.
Pres. Nixon: You go to jail?
John Dean: That's right.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, hell no! I can't see how you can.
John Dean: Well, because -
Pres. Nixon: I can't see how. Let me say I can't see how a legal case could
be made against you, John.
John Dean: It would be tough but, you know, I can see people pointing
fingers. You know, to get it out of their own, put me in an
impossible position. Just really give me a (unintelligible)
Pres. Nixon: Oh, no! let me say I got the impression here - But just looking
at it from a cold legal standpoint: you are a lawyer, you were
a counsel - going what you did as counsel. You were not - What
would you go to jail for?
John Dean: The obstruction of justice.
Pres. Nixon: The obstruction of justice?
John Dean: That is the only one that bothers me.
Pres. Nixon: Well, I don't know. I think that one. I feel it could be cut
off at the pass, maybe, the obstruction of justice.
John Dean: You know one of the - that's why
Pres. Nixon: Sometimes it is well to give them something, and then they don't
want the bigger push?
John Dean: That's right. I think that, I think that with proper coordination
with the Department of Justice, Henry Petersen is the only man
I know bright enough and knowledgeable enough in the criminal
laws and the process that could really tell us how this could
be put together so that it did the maximum to carve it away
with a minimum damage to individuals involved.
Pres. Nixon: Petersen doesn't know does he?
John Dean: That's right. No, I know he doesn't now. I know he doesn't now.
I am talking about somebody who I have over the years grown to
have enough faith in you constantly. It would have to put him
in a very difficult situation as the Head of the Criminal
Division of the United States Department of Justice, and the
oath of office -
Pres. Nixon: No. Talking about your obstruction of justice, though, I don't
see it.
John Dean: Well, I have been a conduit for information on taking care of
people out there who are guilty of crimes.
Pres. Nixon: Oh, you mean like the blackmailers?
John Dean: The blackmailers. Right.
Pres. Nixon: Well, I wonder if that part of it can't be - I wonder if that
doesn't - let me put it frankly: I wonder if that doesn't have
to be continued? Let me put it this way: let Us suppose that
you get the million bucks, and you get the proper way to handle
it. You could hold that side?
John Dean: Uh, huh.
Pres. Nixon: It would seem to me that would be worthwhile.
John Dean: Well, that's one problem.
Pres. Nixon: I know you have a problem here. You have the problem with Hunt
and his clemency.
John Dean: That's right. And you are going to have a clemency problem with
the others. They all are going to expect to he out and that
may put you in a position that is just untenable at some point.
You know, the Watergate Hearings just over, Hunt now demanding
clemency or be is going to blow. And politically, it's
impossible for you to do it. You know, after everybody -
Pres. Nixon: That's right!
John Dean: I am not sure that you will ever be able to deliver on the
clemency. It may be just too hot.
Pres. Nixon: You can't do it politically until after the '74 elections,
that's for sure. Your point is that even then you couldn't do
it.
John Dean: That's right. It may further involve you in a way you should not
be involved in this.
Pres. Nixon: No - it is wrong that's for sure.
John Dean: Well - there have been some bad judgments made. There have been
some necessary judgments made.
Pres. Nixon: Before the election?
John Dean: Before the election and in the wake the necessary ones, you know,
before the election. You know, with me there was no way, but
the burden of this second Administration is something that is
not going to go away.
Pres. Nixon: No, it isn't.
John Dean: It is not going to go away, Sir!
Pres. Nixon: It is not going to go away.
John Dean: Exactly.
Pres. Nixon: The idea, well, that people are going to get tired of it and all
that sort of thing.
John Dean: Anything will spark it back into life. It's got to be, - It's got
to be -
Pres. Nixon: It is too much to the partisan interest to others to spark it
back into life.
John Dean: And it seems to me the only way -
Pres. Nixon: Well, also so let's leave you out of it. I don't think on the
obstruction of justice thing - I take that out. I don't know
why, I think you may be over the cliff.
John Dean: Well, it is possible.
Pres. Nixon: Who else do you think has -
John Dean: Potential criminal liability?
Pres. Nixon: Yeah.
John Dean: I think Ehrlichman does. I think that uh -
Pres. Nixon: Why?
John Dean: Because of this conspiracy to burglarize the Ellsberg doctors'
office.
Pres. Nixon: That is, provided Hunt's breaks?
John Dean: Well, the funny - let me say something interesting about that.
Within the files -
Pres. Nixon: Oh, I thought of it. The picture!
John Dean: Yes, sir. That is not all that buried. And while I think we've
got it buried, there is no telling when it is going to pop up.
Now the Cubans could start this whole thing. When the Ervin
Committee starts running down why this mysterious telephone was
here in the White House listed in the name of a secretary, some
of these secretaries have a little idea about this, and they
can be broken down just so fast. That is another thing I
mentioned in the cycle - in the circle. Liddy's secretary, for
example, is knowledgeable. Magruder's secretary is
knowledgeable.
Pres. Nixon: Sure. So Ehrlichman on the
John Dean: What I am coming in today with is: I don't have a plan on how to
solve it right now, but I think it is at the juncture that we
should begin to think in terms of how to cut the losses; how to
minimize the further growth of this thing, rather than further
compound it by, you know, ultimately paying these guys forever.
I think we've got to look -
Pres. Nixon: But at the moment, don't you agree it is better to get the Hunt
thing that's where that
John Dean: That is worth buying time on.
Pres. Nixon: That is buying time, I agree.
