$Unique_ID{bob01181} $Pretitle{} $Title{Nixon Tapes, The March 21, 1973. (10:12am - 11:55am) - Part 1/2} $Subtitle{} $Author{Various} $Affiliation{} $Subject{john dean nixon pres right liddy get now money hunt} $Date{1974} $Log{} Title: Nixon Tapes, The Author: Various Date: 1974 March 21, 1973. (10:12am - 11:55am) - Part 1/2 Meeting: President Nixon, John Dean and HR Haldeman, Oval Office Pres. Nixon: Well, sit down, sit down. John Dean: Good morning. Pres. Nixon: Well what is the Dean summary of the day about? John Dean: John caught me on the way out and asked me about why Gray was holding back on information, if that was under instructions from us. And it was and it wasn't. It was instructions proposed by the Attorney General, consistent with your press conference statement that no further raw data was to be turned over to the full committee. And that was the extent of it. And then Gray, himself, who reached the conclusion that no more information should be turned over, that he had turned over enough. So this again is Pat Gray making decisions on his own on how to handle his hearings. He has been totally - (unintelligible) to take any guidance, any instruction. We don't know what he is going to do. He is not going to talk about it. He won't review it, and I don't think he does it to harm you in any way, sir. Pres. Nixon: No, he is just quite stubborn and also he isn't very smart. You know - John Dean: He is bullheaded. Pres. Nixon: He is smart in his own way but he's got that typical (expletive deleted) this is right and I am going to do it. John Dean: That's why he thinks he is going to be confirmed. He is being his own man. He is being forthright and honest. He feels he has turned over too much and so it is conscious decision that he is harming the Bureau by doing this and so he is not going to. Pres. Nixon: We have to get the boys off the line that this is because the White House told him to do this and everything. And also, as I told Ehrlichman, I don't see why our little boys can't make something out of the fact that (expletive deleted) this is the only responsible position that could possibly be made. The FBI cannot turn over raw files. Has anybody made that point? I have tried to several times. John Dean: Sam Ervin has made that point himself. In fact, in reading the transcript of Gray's hearings, Ervin tried to hold Gray back from doing what he was doing at the time he did it. I thought it was very unwise. I don't think that anyone is criticizing your position on it Pres. Nixon: Let's make a point that raw files, I mean that point should be made that we are standing for the rights of innocent individuals. The American Civil Liberties Union is against it. We are against it. Hoover had the tradition, and it will continue to be the tradition. All files are confidential. See if we can't get someone inspired to put that out. Let them see what is in one. John Dean: (expletive deleted) You - Pres. Nixon: Any further word on Sullivan? Is he still - John Dean: Yes, he is going to be over to see me today, this morning someplace, sometime. Pres. Nixon: As soon as you get that, I will be available to talk to you this afternoon. I will be busy until about one o'clock. Anytime you are through I would like to see what it is he has. We've got something but I would like to see what it is. John Dean: The reason that I thought we ought to talk this morning is because in our conversations, I have the impression that you don't know everything I know and it makes it very difficult for you to make judgments that only you can make on some of these things and I thought that - Pres. Nixon: In other words, I have to know why you feel that we shouldn't unravel something? John Dean: Let me give you my overall first. Pres. Nixon: In other words, your judgment as to where it stands, and where we will go. John Dean: I think that there is no doubt about the seriousness of the problem we've got. We have a cancer within, close to the Presidency, that is growing. It is growing daily. It's compounded, growing geometrically now, because it compounds itself. That will be clear if I, you know, explain some of the details of why it is. Basically, it is because (1) we are being blackmailed; (2) People are going to start perjuring themselves very quickly that have not had to perjure themselves to protect other people in the line. And there is no assurance Pres. Nixon: That that won't bust? John Dean: That that won't bust. So let me give you the sort of basic facts, talking first about the Watergate; and then about Segretti: and then about some of the peripheral items that have come up. First of all on the Watergate: how did it all start, where did it start? O.K! It started with an instruction to me from Bob Haldeman to see if we couldn't set up a perfectly legitimate campaign intelligence operation over at the Re-Election Committee. Not being in this business, I turned to somebody who had been in this business, Jack Caulfield. I don't remember whether you remember Jack or not. He was your original bodyguard before they had the candidate protection, an old city policeman. Pres. Nixon: Yes, I know him. John Dean: Jack worked for John and then was transferred to my office. I said Jack come up with a plan that, you know - a normal infiltration, buying information from secretaries and all that sort of thing. He did, he put together a plan. It was kicked around. I went to Ehrlichman with it. I went to Mitchell with it, and the consensus was that Caulfield was not the man to do this. In retrospect, that might have been a bad call because he is an incredibly cautious person and wouldn't have put the situation where it is today. After rejecting that, they said we still need something so I was told to look around for someone who could go over to 1701 and do this. That is when I came up with Gordon Liddy. They needed a lawyer. Gordon had an intelligence background from his FBI service. I was aware of the fact that he had done some extremely sensitive things for the White House while he had been at the White House and he had apparently done them well. Going out into Ellsberg's doctor's office Pres. Nixon: Oh, yeah. John Dean: And things like this. He worked with leaks. He tracked these things down. So the report that I got from Krogh was that he was a hell of a good man and not only that a good lawyer and could set up a proper operation. So we talked to Liddy. He was interested in doing it. I took Liddy over to meet Mitchell. Mitchell thought highly of him because Mitchell was partly involved in his coming to the White House to work for Krogh. Liddy had been at Treasury before that. Then Liddy was told to put together his plan, you know, how he would run an intelligence operation. This was after he was hired over there at the Committee. Magruder called me in January and said I would like to have you come over and see Liddy's plan. Pres. Nixon: January of '72? John Dean: January of '72. John Dean: "You come over to Mitchell's office and sit in a meeting where Liddy is going to lay his plan out." I said I don't really know if I am the man, but if you want me there I will be happy to. So I came over and Liddy laid out a million dollar plan that was the most incredible thing I have ever laid my eyes on: all in codes, and involved black bag operations, kidnapping, providing prostitutes to weaken the opposition, bugging, mugging teams. It was just an incredible thing. Pres. Nixon: Tell me this: Did Mitchell go along -? John Dean: No, no, not at all, Mitchell just sat there puffing and laughing. I could tell from - after Liddy left the office I said that is the most incredible thing I have ever seen. He said I agree. And so Liddy was told to go back to the drawing board and come up with something realistic. So there was a second meeting. They asked me to come over to that. I came into the tail end of the meeting. I wasn't there for the first part. I don't know how long the meeting lasted. At this point, they were discussing again bugging, kidnapping and the like. At this point I said right in front of everybody, very clearly, I said, "These are not the sort of things (1) that are ever to be discussed in the office of the Attorney General of the United States - that was where he still was - and I am personally incensed." And I am trying to get Mitchell off the hook. He is a nice person and doesn't like to have to say no when he is talking with people he is going to have to work with. Pres. Nixon: That's right. John Dean: So I let it be known. I said "You all pack that stuff up and get it the hell out of here. You just can't talk this way in this office and you should re-examine your whole thinking." Pres. Nixon: Who all was present? John Dean: It was Magruder, Mitchell, Liddy and myself. I came back right after the meeting and told Bob, "Bob, we have a growing disaster on our hands if they are thinking this way," and I said, "The White House has got to stay out of this and I, frankly, am not going to be involved in it." He said, "I agree John." I thought at that point that the thing was turned off. That is the last I heard of it and I thought it was turned off because it was an absurd proposal. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: Liddy - I did have dealings with him afterwards and we never talked about it. Now that would be hard to believe for some people, but we never did. That is the fact of the matter. Pres. Nixon: Well, you were talking with him about other things. John Dean: We had so many other things. Pres. Nixon: He had some legal problems too. But you were his advisor, and I understand you had conversations about the campaign laws, etc. Haldeman told me that you were handling all of that for us. Go ahead. John Dean: Now. So Liddy went back after that and was over at 1701, the Committee, and this is where I come into having put the pieces together after the fact as to what I can put together about what happened. Liddy sat over there and tried to come up with another plan that he could sell. (1) They were talking to him, telling him that he was putting too much money in it. I don't think they were discounting the illegal points. Jeb is not a lawyer. He did not know whether this is the way the game was played and what it was all about. They came up, apparently, with another plan, but they couldn't get it approved by anybody over there. So Liddy and Hunt apparently came to see Chuck Colson, and Chuck Colson picked up the telephone and called Magruder and said, "You all either fish or cut bait. This is absurd to have these guys over there and not using them. If you are not going to use them, I may use them." Things of this nature. Pres. Nixon: When was this? John Dean: This was apparently in February of '72. Pres. Nixon: Did Colson know what they were talking about? John Dean: I can only assume, because of his close relationship - with Hunt, that he had a damn good idea what they were talking about, a damn good idea. He would probably deny it today and probably get away with denying it. But I still - unless Hunt blows on him - Pres. Nixon: But then Hunt isn't enough. It takes two doesn't it? John Dean: Probably. Probably. But Liddy was there also and if Liddy were to blow - Pres. Nixon: Then you have a problem - I was saying as to the criminal liability in the White House. John Dean: I will go back over that, and take out any of the soft spots. Pres. Nixon: Colson, you think was the person who pushed? John Dean: I think he helped to get the thing off the dime. Now something else occurred though - Pres. Nixon: Did Colson - had he talked to anybody here? John Dean: No. I think this was Pres. Nixon: Did he talk with Haldeman? John Dean: No, I don't think so. But here is the next thing that comes in the chain. I think Bob was assuming, that they had something that was proper over there, some intelligence gathering operation that Liddy was operating. And through Strachan, who was his tickler, he started pushing them to get some information and they - Magruder - took that as a signal to probably go to Mitchell and to say, "They are pushing us like crazy for this from the White House. And so Mitchell probably puffed on his pipe and said, "Go ahead," and never really reflected on what it was all about. So they had some plan that obviously had, I gather, different targets they were going to go after. They were going to infiltrate, and bug, and do all this sort of thing to a lot of these targets. This is knowledge I have after the fact. Apparently after they had initially broken in and bugged the DNC they were getting information. The information was coming over here to Strachan and some of it was given to Haldeman, there is no doubt about it. Pres. Nixon: Did he know where it was coming from? John Dean: I don't really know if he would. Pres. Nixon: Not necessarily? John Dean: Not necessarily. Strachan knew it. There is no doubt about it, and whether Strachan - I have never come to press these people on these points because it hurts them to give up that next inch, so I had to piece things together. Strachan was aware of receiving information, reporting to Bob. At one point Bob even gave instructions to change their capabilities from Muskie to McGovern, and passed this back through Strachan to Magruder and apparently to Liddy. And Liddy was starting to make arrangements to go in and bug the McGovern operation. Pres. Nixon: They had never bugged Muskie, though, did they? John Dean: No, they hadn't, but they had infiltrated it by a secretary. Pres. Nixon: By a secretary? John Dean: By a secretary and a chauffeur. There is nothing illegal about that. So the information was coming over here and then I, finally, after -. The next point in time that I became aware of anything was on June 17th when I got the word that there had been this break in at the DNC and somebody from our Committee had been caught in the DNC. And I said, "Oh, (expletive deleted)." You know, eventually putting the pieces together - Pres. Nixon: You knew what it was. John Dean: I knew who it was. So I called Liddy on Monday morning and said, "First, Gordon, I want to know whether anybody in the White House was involved in this." And he said, "No, they weren't." I said, "Well I want to know how in (adjective deleted) name this happened." He said, "Well, I was pushed without mercy by Magruder to get in there and to get more information. That the information was not satisfactory. That Magruder said, 'The White House is not happy with what we are getting.'" Pres. Nixon: The White House? John Dean: The White House. Yeah! Pres. Nixon: Who do you think was pushing him? John Dean: Well, I think it was probably Strachan thinking that Bob wanted things, because I have seen that happen on other occasions where things have said to have been of very prime importance when they really weren't. Pres. Nixon: Why at that point in time I wonder? I am just trying to think. We had just finished the Moscow trip. The Democrats had just nominated McGovern. I mean, (expletive deleted), what in the hell were these people doing? I can see their doing it earlier. I can see the pressures, but I don't see why all the pressure was on then. John Dean: I don't know, other than the fact that they might have been looking for information about the conventions. Pres. Nixon: That's right. John Dean: Because, I understand that after the fact that there was a plan to bug Larry O'Brien's suite down in Florida. So Liddy told me that this is what had happened and this is why it had happened. Pres. Nixon: Where did he learn that there were plans to bug Larry O'Brien's suite? John Dean: From Magruder, long after the fact. Pres. Nixon: Magruder is (unintelligible) John Dean: Yeah. Magruder is totally knowledgeable on the whole thing. Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: Alright now, we have gone through the trial. I don't know if Mitchell has perjured himself in the Grand Jury or not. Pres. Nixon: Who? John Dean: Mitchell. I don't know how much knowledge he actually had. I know that Magruder has perjured himself in the Grand Jury. I know that Porter has perjured himself in the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: Who is Porter? (unintelligible) John Dean: He is one of Magruder's deputies. They set up this scenario which they ran by me. They said, "How about this?" I said, "I don't know. If this is what you are - doing to hang on, fine." Pres. Nixon: What did they say in the Grand Jury? John Dean: They said, as they said before the trial in the Grand Jury, that Liddy had come over as Counsel and we knew he had these capacities to do legitimate intelligence. We had no idea what he was doing. He was given an authorization of $250,000 to collect information, because our surrogates were out on the road. They had no protection, and we had information that there were going to be demonstrations against them, and that we had to have a plan as to what liabilities they were going to be confronted with and Liddy was charged with doing this. We had no knowledge that he was going to bug the DNC. Pres. Nixon: The point is, that is not true? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Magruder did know it was going to take place? John Dean: Magruder gave the instructions to be back in the DNC. Pres. Nixon: He did? John Dean: Yes. Pres. Nixon: You know that? John Dean: Yes. Pres. Nixon: I see. O.K. John Dean: I honestly believe that no one over here knew that. I know that as God is my maker, I had no knowledge that they were going to do this. Pres. Nixon: Bob didn't either, or wouldn't have known that either. You are not the issue involved. Had Bob known, he would be. John Dean: Bob - I don't believe specifically knew that they were going in there. Pres. Nixon: I don't think so. John Dean: I don't think he did. I think he knew that there was a capacity to do this but he was not given the specific direction. Pres. Nixon: Did Strachan know? John Dean: I think Strachan did know. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) Going back into the DNC - Hunt, etc. - this is not understandable. John Dean: So - those people are in trouble as a result of the Grand Jury and the trial. Mitchell, of course, was never called during the trial. Now - Pres. Nixon: Mitchell has given a sworn statement, hasn't he? John Dean: Yes, Sir. Pres. Nixon: To the Jury? John Dean: To the Grand Jury. - Pres. Nixon: You mean the Goldberg arrangement? John Dean: We had an arrangement whereby he went down with several of them, because of the heat of this thing and the implications on the election, we made an arrangement where they could quietly go into the Department of Justice and have one of the assistant U.S. Attorneys take their testimony and then read it before the Grand Jury. Pres. Nixon: I thought Mitchell went. John Dean: That's right, Mitchell was actually called before the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury would not settle for less, because the jurors wanted him. Pres. Nixon: And he went? John Dean: And he went. Pres. Nixon: Good! John Dean: I don't know what he said. I have never seen a transcript of the Grand Jury. Now what has happened post June 17? I was under pretty clear instructions not to investigate this, but this could have been disastrous on the electorate if all hell had broken loose. I worked on a theory of containment - Pres. Nixon: Sure. John Dean: To try to hold it right where it was. Pres. Nixon: Right. John Dean: There is no doubt that I was totally aware of what the Bureau was doing at all times. I was totally aware of what the Grand Jury was doing. I knew what witnesses were going to be called. I knew what they were asked, and I had to. Pres. Nixon: Why did Petersen play the game so straight with us? John Dean: Because Petersen is a soldier. He kept me informed. He told me when we had problems, where we had problems and the like. He believes in you and he believes in this Administration. This Administration has made him. I don't think he has done anything improper, but he did make sure that the investigation was narrowed down to the very, very fine criminal thing which was a break for us. There is no doubt about it. Pres. Nixon: Do you honestly feel that he did an adequate job? John Dean: They ran that investigation out to the fullest extend they could follow a lead and that was it. Pres. Nixon: But the way point is, where I suppose he could be criticized for not doing an adequate job. Why didn't he call Haldeman? Why didn't he get a statement from Colson? Oh, they did get Colson! John Dean: That's right. But as based on their FBI interviews, there was no reason to follow up. There were no leads there. Colson said, "I have no knowledge of this" to the FBI. Strachan said, "I have no knowledge." They didn't ask Strachan any questions about Watergate. They asked him about Segretti. They said, "what is your connection with Liddy?" Strachan just said, "Well, I met him over there." They never really pressed him. Strachan appeared, as a result of some coaching, to be the dumbest paper pusher in the bowels of the White House. Pres. Nixon: I understand. John Dean: Alright. Now post June 17th: These guys immediately - It is very interesting. (Dean sort of chuckled) Liddy, for example, on the Friday before - I guess it was on the 15th, no, the 16th of June - had been in Henry Petersen's office with another member of my staff on campaign compliance problems. After the incident, he ran Kleindienst down at Burning Tree Country Club and told him "you've got to get my men out of jail." Kleindienst said, "You get the hell out of here, kid. Whatever you have to say, just say to somebody else. Don't bother me." But this has never come up. Liddy said if they all got counsel instantly and said we will ride this thing out. Alright, then they started making demands. "We have to have attorneys fees. We don't have any money ourselves, and you are asking us to take this through the election." Alright, so arrangements were made through Mitchell, initiating it. And I was present in discussions where these guys had to be taken care of. The attorneys fees had to be done. Kalmbach was brought in. Kalmbach raised some cash. Pres. Nixon: They put that under the cover of a Cuban Committee, I suppose? John Dean: Well, they had a Cuban Committee and they had - some of it was given to Hunt's lawyer, who in turn passed it out. You know, when Hunt's wife was flying to Chicago with $10,000 she was actually, I understand after the fact now, was going to pass that money to one of the Cubans - to meet him in Chicago and pass it to somebody there. Pres. Nixon: (unintelligible) but I would certainly keep that cover for whatever it is worth. John Dean: That's the most troublesome post-thing because (1) Bob is involved in that; (2) Jolin is involved in that; (3) I am involved in that; (4) Mitchell is involved in that. And that is an obstruction of justice. Pres. Nixon: In other words the bad it does. You were taking care of witnesses. How did Bob get in it? John Dean: Well, they ran out of money over there. Bob bad $350,000 in a safe over here that was really set aside for polling purposes. And there was no other source of money, so they came over and said you all have got to give us some money. I had to go to Bob and say, "Bob, they need some money over there." He said "What for." So I had to tell him what it was for because he wasn't just about to send money over there willy-nilly. And John was involved in those discussions. And then we decided there was no price too high to pay to let this thing blow up in front of the election. Pres. Nixon: I think we should be able to handle that issue pretty well. May be some lawsuits. John Dean: I think we can too. Here is what is happening right now. What sort of brings matters to the (unintelligible). One, this is going to be a continual blackmail operation by Hunt and Liddy and the Cubans. No doubt about it. And McCord, who is another one involved. McCord has asked for nothing. McCord did ask to meet with somebody, with Jack Caulfield who is his old friend who had written him hired over there. And when Caulfield had him hired, he was a perfectly legitimate security man. And he wanted to talk about commutation, and things like that. And as you know Colson has talked indirectly to Hunt about commutation. All of these things are bad, in that they are problems, they are promises, they are commitments. They are the very sort of thing that the Senate is going to be looking most for. I don't think they can find them, frankly. Pres. Nixon: Pretty hard. John Dean: Pretty hard. Damn hard. It's all cash. Pres. Nixon: Pretty hard I mean as far as the witnesses are concerned. John Dean: Alright, now, the blackmail is continuing. Hunt called one of the lawyers from the Re-Election Committee on last Friday to leave it with him over the weekend. The guy came in to see me to give a message directly to me. From Hunt to me. Pres. Nixon: Is Hunt out on bail? John Dean: Pardon? Pres. Nixon: Is Hunt on bail? John Dean: Hunt is on bail. Correct. Hunt now is demanding another $72,000 for his own personal expenses; another $50,000 to pay attorneys fees; $120,000. Some (1) he wanted it as of the close of business yesterday. He said, "I am going to be sentenced on Friday, and I've got to get my financial affairs in order." I told this fellow O'Brien, "If you want money, you came to the wrong man, fellow. I am not involved in the money. I don't know a thing about it. I can't help you. You better scramble about elsewhere." O'Brien is a ball player. He carried tremendous water for us. Pres. Nixon: He isn't Hunt's lawyer? John Dean: No he is our lawyer at the Re-Election Committee. Pres. Nixon: I see. John Dean: So he is safe. There is no problem there. So it raises the whole question. Hunt has now made a direct threat against Ehrlichman. As a result of this, this is his blackmail. He says, "I will bring John Ehrlichman down to his knees and put him in jail. I have done enough seamy things for he and Krogh, they'll never survive it." Pres. Nixon: Was he talking about Ellsberg? John Dean: Ellsberg, and apparently some other things. I don't know the full extent of it. Pres. Nixon: I don't know about anything else. John Dean: I don't know either, and I hate to learn some of these things. So that is that situation. Now, where are at the soft points? How many people know about this? Well, let me go one step further in this whole thing. The Cubans that were used in the Watergate were also the same Cubans that Hunt and Liddy used for this California Ellsberg thing, for the break in out there. So they are aware of that. How high their knowledge is, is something else. Hunt and Liddy, of course, are totally aware of it, of the fact that it is right out of the White House. Pres. Nixon: I don't know what the hell we did that for! John Dean: I don't know either. Pres. Nixon: What in the (expletive deleted) caused this? (unintelligible) John Dean: Mr. President, there have been a couple of things around here that I have gotten wind of. At one time there was a desire to do a second story job on the Brookings Institute where they had the Pentagon papers. Now I flew to California because I was told that John had instructed it and he said, "I really hadn't. It is a misimpression, but for (expletive deleted), turn it off." So I did. I came back and turned it off. The risk is minimal and the pain is fantastic. It is something with a (unintelligible) risk and no gain. It is just not worth it. But - who knows about all this now? You've got the Cubans' lawyer, a man by the name of Rothblatt, who is a no good, publicity seeking (characterization deleted), to be very frank with you. He has had to be pruned down and tuned off. He was canned by his own people because they didn't trust him. He didn't want them to plead guilty. He wants to represent them before the Senate. So F. Lee Bailey, who was a partner of one of the men representing McCord, got in and cooled Rothblatt down. So that means that F. Lee Bailey has knowledge. Hunt's lawyer, a man by the name of Bittmann, who is an excellent criminal lawyer from the Democratic era of Bobby Kennedy, he's got knowledge. Pres. Nixon: He's got some knowledge? John Dean: Well, all the direct knowledge that Hunt and Liddy have, as well as all the hearsay they have. You have these two lawyers over at the Re-Election Committee who did an investigation to find out the facts. Slowly, they got the whole picture. They are solid. Pres. Nixon: But they know? John Dean: But they know. You've got, then an awful lot of the principals involved who know. Some people's wives know. Mrs. Hunt was the savviest woman in the world. She had the whole picture together. Pres. Nixon: Did she? John Dean: Yes. Apparently, she was the pillar of strength in that family before the death. Pres. Nixon: Great sadness. As a matter of fact, there was a discussion with somebody about Hunt's problem on account of his wife and I said, of course commutation could be considered on the basis of his wife's death, and that is the only conversation I ever had in that light. John Dean: Right. John Dean: So that is it. That is the extent of the knowledge. So where are the soft spots on this? Well, first of all, there is the problem of the continued blackmail which will not only go on now, but it will go on while these people are in prison, and it will compound the obstruction of justice situation. It will cost money. It is dangerous. People around here are not pros at this sort of thing. This is the sort of thing Mafia people can do: washing money, getting clean money, and things like that. We just don't know about those things, because we are not criminals and not used to dealing in that business. Pres. Nixon: That's right. John Dean: It is a tough thing to know how to do. Pres. Nixon: Maybe it takes a gang to do that. John Dean: That's right. There is a real problem as to whether we could even do it. Plus there is a real problem in raising money. Mitchell has been working on raising some money. He is one of the ones with the most to lose. But there is no denying the fact that the White House, in Ehrlichman, Haldeman and Dean are involved in some of the early money decisions. Pres. Nixon: How much money do you need? John Dean: I would say these people are going to cost a million dollars over the next two years. Pres. Nixon: We could get that. On the money, if you need the money you could get that. You could get a million dollars. You could get it in cash. I know where it could be gotten. It is not easy, but it could be done. But the question is who the hell would handle it? Any ideas on that? John Dean: That's right. Well, I think that is something that Mitchell ought to be charged with. Pres. Nixon: I would think so too. John Dean: And get some pros to help him. Pres. Nixon: Let me say there shouldn't be a lot of people running around getting money - John Dean: Well he's got one person doing it who I am not sure is - Pres. Nixon: Who is that? John Dean: He has Fred LaRue doing it. Now Fred started out going out trying to solicit money from all kinds of people. Pres. Nixon: No! John Dean: I had learned about it, and I said, "(expletive deleted) It is just awful! Don't do it!" People are going to ask what the money is for. He has apparently talked to Tom Pappas. Pres. Nixon: I know. John Dean: And Pappas has agreed to come up with a sizeable amount, I gather. Pres. Nixon: What do you think? You don't need a million right away, but you need a million? Is that right? John Dean: That is right. Pres. Nixon: You need it in cash don't you? I am just thinking out loud here for a moment. Would you put that through the Cuban Committee: John Dean: No. Pres. Nixon: It is going to be checks, cash money, etc. How if that ever comes out, are you going to handle it? Is the Cuban Committee an obstruction of justice, if they want to help? John Dean: Well they have priests in it. Pres. Nixon: Would that give a little bit of a cover? John Dean: That would give some for the Cubans and possibly Hunt. Then you've got Liddy. McCord is not accepting any money. So he is not a bought man right now. Pres. Nixon: OK. Go ahead. John Dean: Let me continue a little bit right here now. When I say this is a growing cancer, I say it for reasons like this. Bud Krogh, in his testimony before the Grand Jury, was forced to perjure himself. He is haunted by it. Bud said, "I have not had a pleasant day on my job." He said, "I told my wife all about this. The curtain may ring down one of these days, and I may have to face the music, which I am perfectly willing to do." Pres. Nixon: What did he perjure himself on, John? John Dean: Did he know the Cubans. He did. Pres. Nixon: He said he didn't? John Dean: That is right. They didn't press him hard. Pres. Nixon: He might be able to - I am just trying to think. Perjury is an awful hard rap to prove. If he could just say that I - Well, go ahead. John Dean: Well, so that is one perjury. Mitchell and Magruder are potential perjurers. There is always the possibility of any one of these individuals blowing. Hunt. Liddy. Liddy is in jail right now, serving his time and having a good time right now. I think Liddy in his own bizarre way the strongest of all of them. So there is that possibility. Pres. Nixon: Your major guy to keep under control is Hunt? John Dean: That is right. Pres. Nixon: I think. Does he know a lot? John Dean: He knows so much. He could sink Chuck Colson. Apparently he is quite distressed with Colson. He thinks Colson has abandoned him. Colson was to meet with him when he was out there after, you know, he had left the White House. He met with him through his lawyer. Hunt raised the question he wanted money. Colson's lawyer told him Colson wasn't doing anything with money. Hunt took offense with that immediately, and felt Colson had abandoned him. Pres. Nixon: Just looking at the immediate problem, don't you think you have to handle Hunt's financial situation damn soon John Dean: I think that is - I talked with Mitchell about that last night and - Pres. Nixon: It seems to me we have to keep the cap on the bottle that much, or we don't have any options. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Either that or it all blows right now? John Dean: That's the question. Pres. Nixon: We have Hunt, Krogh. Well go ahead with the other ones. John Dean: Now we've got Kalmbach. Kalmbach received, at the close of the '68 campaign in January of 1969, he got a million $700,000 to be custodian for. That came down from New York, and was placed in safe deposit boxes here. Some other people were on the boxes. And ultimately, the money was taken out to California. Alright, there is knowledge of the fact that he did start with a million seven. Several people know this. Now since 1969, he has spent a good deal of this money and accounting for it is going to be very difficult for Herb. For example, he has spent close to $500,000 on private polling. That opens up a whole new thing. It is not illegal, but more of the same thing. Pres. Nixon: Everybody does polling. John Dean: That's right. There is nothing criminal about it. It's private polling. Pres. Nixon: People have done private polling all through the years. There is nothing improper. John Dean: That's right. He sent $400,000, as he has described to me, somewhere in the South for another candidate. I assume this was 400,000 that went to Wallace. Pres. Nixon: Wallace? John Dean: Right. He has maintained a man who I only know by the name of "Tony," who is the fellow who did the Chappaquidick study. Pres. Nixon: I know about that. John Dean: And other odd jobs like that. Nothing illegal, but closer. I don't know of anything that Herb has done that is illegal, other than the fact that he doesn't want to blow the whistle on a lot of people, and may find himself in a perjury situation. Well, what will happen when they call him up there - and he has no immunity? They will say, "How did you pay Mr. Segretti?" He will say, "Well, I had cash on hand." "How much cash did you have on hand?" Where does it go from there? Where did you get the cash? A full series of questions. His bank records indicate he had cash on hand, because some of these were set up in trustee accounts. Pres. Nixon: How would you handle him, John, for example? Would you just have him put the whole thing out? I don't mind the $500,000 and $400,000. John Dean: No - that doesn't bother me either. As I say, Herb's problems are politically embarrassing, but not criminal. Pres. Nixon: Well he just handled matters between campaigns. These were surveys etc., etc. There is no need to account for that. There is no law that requires his accounting for that. John Dean: Ah, now - Pres. Nixon: Sources of money. There is no illegality in having a surplus in cash after a campaign. John Dean: No, the money - it has always been argued by Stans that it came in the pre-convention primary for the 1968 race, and it was just set aside. That all can be explained. Pres. Nixon: How about the other probabilities? John Dean: We have a runaway Grand Jury up in the Southern District. They are after Mitchell and Stans on some sort of bribe or influence peddling with Vesco. They are also going to try to drag Ehrlichman into that. Apparently Ehrlichman had some meetings with Vesco, also. Don Nixon, Jr. came in to see John a couple of times about the problem. Pres. Nixon: Not about Vesco, but about Don, Jr.? Ehrlichman never did anything for Vesco? John Dean: No one at the White House has done anything for Vesco. Pres. Nixon: Well Ehrlichman doesn't have to appear there? John Dean: Before that Grand Jury? Yes he could very well. Pres. Nixon: He couldn't use Executive Privilege? John Dean: Not really. Criminal charge, that is a little different. That would be dynamite to try to defend that. Pres. Nixon: Use the Flanigan analogy? John Dean: Right! That's pretty much the overall picture. And probably the most troublesome thing is the Segretti thing. Let's get down to that. Bob has indicated to me that he has told you a lot of it, that he, indeed did authorize it. He did not authorize anything like ultimately evolved. He was aware of it. He was aware that Chapin and Strachan were looking for somebody. Again, this is one that has potential that Dwight Chapin should have a felony in this. He has to disprove a negative. The negative is that he didn't control and direct Segretti. Pres. Nixon: Wouldn't the felony be perjury again? John Dean: No, the felony in this instance would be a potential use of one of the civil rights statutes, where anybody who interferes with the campaign of a candidate for national office. Pres. Nixon: Why isn't it under civil rights statutes for these clowns demonstrating against us? John Dean: I have argued for that very purpose. Pres. Nixon: Really? John Dean: Yes, I have. Pres. Nixon: We were closer - nuts interfering with the campaign. John Dean: That is exactly right. Pres. Nixon: I have been sick about that because it is so bad the way it has been put out on the PR side. It has ended up on the PR side very confused. John Dean: What really bothers me is this growing situation. As I say, it is growing because of the continued need to provide support for the Watergate people who are going to hold us up for everything we've got, and the need for some people to perjure themselves as they do down the road here. If this thing ever blows, then we are m a cover up situation. I think it would be extremely damaging to you and the Pres. Nixon: Sure. The whole concept of Administration justice. Which we cannot have! John Dean: That is what really troubles me. For example, what happens if it starts breaking, and they do find a criminal case against a Haldeman, a Dean, a Mitchell, an Ehrlichman? That is - Pres. Nixon: If it really comes down to that, we would have to (unintelligible) some of the men. John Dean: That's right. I am coming down to what I really think, is that Bob and John and John Mitchell and I can sit down and spend a day, or however long, to figure out one, how this can be carved away from you, so that it does not damage you or the Presidency. It just can't! You are not involved in it and it is something you shouldn't - Pres. Nixon: That is true! John Dean: I know, sir. I can just tell from our conversation that these are things that you have no knowledge of. Pres. Nixon: You certainly can! Buggings, etc! Let me say I am keenly aware of the fact Colson, et al., were doing their best to get information as we went along. But they all knew very well they were supposed to comply with the law. There was no question about that! You feel that really the trigger man was really Colson on this then? John Dean: No, was one of us. He was just in the chain. He helped push the thing. Pres. Nixon: All I know about is the time of ITT, he was trying get something going there because ITT was giving us a bad time. John Dean: I know he used Hunt. Pres. Nixon: I knew about that. I didn't know about it, but I knew there was something going on. But I didn't know it was a Hunt. John Dean: What really troubles me is one, will this thing not break some day and the whole thing - domino situation - everything starts crumbling, fingers will be pointing. Bob will be accused of things he has never heard of and deny and try to disprove it. It will get real nasty and just be 8 real bad situation. And the person who will be hurt by it most will be you and the Presidency, and I just don't think - Pres. Nixon: First, because I am an executive I am supposed to check these things. John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Let's come back to this problem. What are your feelings yourself, John? You know what they are all saying. What are your feelings about the chances? John Dean: I am not confident that we can ride through this. I think there are soft spots. Pres. Nixon: You used to be John Dean: I am not comfortable for this reason. I have noticed of recent - since the publicity has increased on this thing again, with the Gray hearings, that everybody is now starting to watch after their behind. Everyone is getting their own counsel. More counsel are getting involved. How do I protect my ass. Pres. Nixon: They are scared. John Dean: That is bad. We were able to hold it for a long time. Another thing is that my facility to deal with the multitude of people I have been dealing with has been hampered because of Gray's blowing me up into the front page. Pres. Nixon: Your cover is broken? John Dean: That's right and its - Pres. Nixon: So what you really come to is what we do. Let's suppose that you and Haldeman and Ehrlichman and Mitchell say we can't hold this? What then are you going to say? What are you going to put out after it. Complete disclosure, isn't that the best way to do it? John Dean: Well, one way to do it is - Pres. Nixon: That would be my view. John Dean: One way to do it is for you to tell the Attorney General that you finally know. Really, this is the first time you are getting all the pieces together. Pres. Nixon: Ask for another Grand Jury? John Dean: Ask for another Grand Jury. The way it should be done though, is a way - for example, I think that we could avoid criminal liability for countless people and the ones that did get it could be minimal. Pres. Nixon: How? John Dean: Well, I think by just thinking it all through first as to how. You know, some people could be granted immunity. Pres. Nixon: Like Magruder? John Dean: Yeah. To come forward. But some people are going to have to go to jail. That is the long and short of it, also. Pres. Nixon: Who? Let's talk about - John Dean: Alright. I think I could. For one. Pres. Nixon: You go to jail? John Dean: That's right. Pres. Nixon: Oh, hell no! I can't see how you can. John Dean: Well, because - Pres. Nixon: I can't see how. Let me say I can't see how a legal case could be made against you, John. John Dean: It would be tough but, you know, I can see people pointing fingers. You know, to get it out of their own, put me in an impossible position. Just really give me a (unintelligible) Pres. Nixon: Oh, no! let me say I got the impression here - But just looking at it from a cold legal standpoint: you are a lawyer, you were a counsel - going what you did as counsel. You were not - What would you go to jail for? John Dean: The obstruction of justice. Pres. Nixon: The obstruction of justice? John Dean: That is the only one that bothers me. Pres. Nixon: Well, I don't know. I think that one. I feel it could be cut off at the pass, maybe, the obstruction of justice. John Dean: You know one of the - that's why Pres. Nixon: Sometimes it is well to give them something, and then they don't want the bigger push? John Dean: That's right. I think that, I think that with proper coordination with the Department of Justice, Henry Petersen is the only man I know bright enough and knowledgeable enough in the criminal laws and the process that could really tell us how this could be put together so that it did the maximum to carve it away with a minimum damage to individuals involved. Pres. Nixon: Petersen doesn't know does he? John Dean: That's right. No, I know he doesn't now. I know he doesn't now. I am talking about somebody who I have over the years grown to have enough faith in you constantly. It would have to put him in a very difficult situation as the Head of the Criminal Division of the United States Department of Justice, and the oath of office - Pres. Nixon: No. Talking about your obstruction of justice, though, I don't see it. John Dean: Well, I have been a conduit for information on taking care of people out there who are guilty of crimes. Pres. Nixon: Oh, you mean like the blackmailers? John Dean: The blackmailers. Right. Pres. Nixon: Well, I wonder if that part of it can't be - I wonder if that doesn't - let me put it frankly: I wonder if that doesn't have to be continued? Let me put it this way: let Us suppose that you get the million bucks, and you get the proper way to handle it. You could hold that side? John Dean: Uh, huh. Pres. Nixon: It would seem to me that would be worthwhile. John Dean: Well, that's one problem. Pres. Nixon: I know you have a problem here. You have the problem with Hunt and his clemency. John Dean: That's right. And you are going to have a clemency problem with the others. They all are going to expect to he out and that may put you in a position that is just untenable at some point. You know, the Watergate Hearings just over, Hunt now demanding clemency or be is going to blow. And politically, it's impossible for you to do it. You know, after everybody - Pres. Nixon: That's right! John Dean: I am not sure that you will ever be able to deliver on the clemency. It may be just too hot. Pres. Nixon: You can't do it politically until after the '74 elections, that's for sure. Your point is that even then you couldn't do it. John Dean: That's right. It may further involve you in a way you should not be involved in this. Pres. Nixon: No - it is wrong that's for sure. John Dean: Well - there have been some bad judgments made. There have been some necessary judgments made. Pres. Nixon: Before the election? John Dean: Before the election and in the wake the necessary ones, you know, before the election. You know, with me there was no way, but the burden of this second Administration is something that is not going to go away. Pres. Nixon: No, it isn't. John Dean: It is not going to go away, Sir! Pres. Nixon: It is not going to go away. John Dean: Exactly. Pres. Nixon: The idea, well, that people are going to get tired of it and all that sort of thing. John Dean: Anything will spark it back into life. It's got to be, - It's got to be - Pres. Nixon: It is too much to the partisan interest to others to spark it back into life. John Dean: And it seems to me the only way - Pres. Nixon: Well, also so let's leave you out of it. I don't think on the obstruction of justice thing - I take that out. I don't know why, I think you may be over the cliff. John Dean: Well, it is possible. Pres. Nixon: Who else do you think has - John Dean: Potential criminal liability? Pres. Nixon: Yeah. John Dean: I think Ehrlichman does. I think that uh - Pres. Nixon: Why? John Dean: Because of this conspiracy to burglarize the Ellsberg doctors' office. Pres. Nixon: That is, provided Hunt's breaks? John Dean: Well, the funny - let me say something interesting about that. Within the files - Pres. Nixon: Oh, I thought of it. The picture! John Dean: Yes, sir. That is not all that buried. And while I think we've got it buried, there is no telling when it is going to pop up. Now the Cubans could start this whole thing. When the Ervin Committee starts running down why this mysterious telephone was here in the White House listed in the name of a secretary, some of these secretaries have a little idea about this, and they can be broken down just so fast. That is another thing I mentioned in the cycle - in the circle. Liddy's secretary, for example, is knowledgeable. Magruder's secretary is knowledgeable. Pres. Nixon: Sure. So Ehrlichman on the John Dean: What I am coming in today with is: I don't have a plan on how to solve it right now, but I think it is at the juncture that we should begin to think in terms of how to cut the losses; how to minimize the further growth of this thing, rather than further compound it by, you know, ultimately paying these guys forever. I think we've got to look - Pres. Nixon: But at the moment, don't you agree it is better to get the Hunt thing that's where that John Dean: That is worth buying time on. Pres. Nixon: That is buying time, I agree.