8bitfiles.net/archives/archives.tar/archives/genie-commodore-file-library/Listserv/COM9606C.TXT

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Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:46:32 -0230
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Adam Vardy <[e-mail]>
Subject:      JiffyDOS in 1581
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

Doesn't anyone have a 1581?

Anyone who uses a C128 have a 1581 and JiffyDOS?  As I asked about last
week, I am wondering if someone could tell me how long it takes to load a
program from your 1581.  Any program.

As I said before, I am finding no improvement loading files in 128 mode.
It is strange, and I am hoping someone can just send me an example of
exactly how long it takes to load some program from your 1581.  Load some
128 program and time how long it takes to load.  If you have Dialogue
128, that would be one example.  Any examples you can give me will do.


- Adam Vardy
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 22:44:24 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         [e-mail]
Subject:      WANTED: Commodore Equipment

Attention Commodore Users and Owners,

   I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will
pay as follows:


Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16               $10.00 working condition
Commodore 64                          $20.00 working condition
Commodore 128                         $45.00 working condition
Commodore 1540/1541/1571              $15.00 working condition
Commodore 1581                        $25.00 working condition
Commodore 17xx REU                    $20.00 working condition
Commodore SD drives                   $25.00 working condition

CMD RAMLink                           $60.00 +
                                      $30.00 per megabyte
                                    + $10.00 RTC
                                    + $10.00 Battery BackUp

CMD Hardrive                          $40.00 +
                                      $  .80 per megabyte (twice current
                                                price per megabyte)
                                    + $10.00 RL to HD Cable

CMD FD-2000                           $100.00
                                    + $ 10.00 RTC

CMD FD-4000                           $150.00
                                    + $ 10.00 RTC

CMD SwiftLink                         $15.00
                                    + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem


Lt Kernal Hard Drive                  $20.00 +
                                      $  .60 per megabyte

Cartridges (fast load type)           $15.00 each
Cartridges (games/other)              $ 5.00 each

Looking for all kinds of Commodore 8-bit equipment. If you are
interested in selling anything, please respond via e-mail to;

[e-mail]

I have cash in hand and interested in buying :)
Sent Via The Playpen BBS...Washington DC's Premier Online Service
..TELNET: PLAYPEN.COM...MODEM: [phone]
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:18:51 -0700
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Larry Hollis <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Using the C128 Z80?
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, STEVE MELLO wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Can anyone tell me how the C128 uses its disk drive, video, and
> printer while in the Z80 or CP/M mode?

A.  While running the CP/M OS you use the built in commands of CP/M to
control the computer.  As CP/M was developed before MS-DOS many of its
commands look like MS-DOS commands.

To see the directory of a disk in drive 'A' type DIR at the A> prompt.
To load a file type the file's name at the A> prompt.
To delete a file type ERA {filename} at the A> prompt.

> Does the Z80 execute the CP/M and then the 8502 take care of the rest?

A. The two processors work together, while in the native Commodore modes
(i.e. C=64 & C=128) the 8502 is the main processor, while running the
CP/M mode the Z80 takes charge.

> How do you pass control between the two processors with software?

A. Not sure why you would want to.  CP/M is a world unto itself.  As CP/M
is a stand alone operating system just as the Commodore Kernel is.  The
two do not work together, hence the need for two different mpu chips.

> I am also wondering if it is possible to trap the Z80 I/O
> port events on the C128? It is the only why I can see to successfully
> emulate another Z80 machine on the C128 (with my current limited
> knowledge on the operation of the Z80 in the 128 :)?

A.  What do you mean by "emulate another Z80 machine"?  CP/M was a
universal OS in that is was not machine dependent.  It all works the same
whether you are sitting in front of a Kaypro, TRS-80, Osbourne OM-1, a
C=128 in CP/M mode or what ever, they all work the same.  MS-DOS is
another universal OS in that it doesn't matter who make the box, as long
as it has an i80xxx mpu in it it will run MS-DOS.

To answer all (most) Z80 and CP/M questions for the C=128 you should get
a hold of a copy of Digital Research's "CP/M Plus (CP/M Version 3)
Operating System User's Guide, Programmer's Guide, and System Guide" 1983
reprineted by Commodore Business Machines Inc.  It is a very thick book,
about an inch and 3/4s.

When you are running the CP/M OS you are running under CP/M.  In this
mode of the C=128 you can run any software that is written for a 8080
8085 or Z80 microprocessor.

Unlike the Commodore OS which is stored in ROM, CP/M must be loaded
(booted) from a "systems disk" before you can use it.  This is because
CP/M is a collection of programs called "transient commands" (the CP/M 3
OS has 20 transient commands; COPYSYS, DATE, DEVICE, DUMP, ED, GET, HELP,
HEXCOM, INITDIR, LINK, MAC, PIP, PUT, RMAC, SET, SETDEF, SHOW, SID,
SUBMIT, and XREF and six built-in commands; DIR, DIRSYS, ERSE, RENAME,
TYPE, and USER.  By way of comparrision MS-DOS v6.0 has over 100 commands)

To get the most out of CP/M you must have two disk drives.  Device 8 & 9
in Commodore terms, A & B in CP/M terms. (In fact it is easer to add more
drives (i.e. floppy, hard, & RAM) in CP/M than in the native Commodore).

You leave the "systems disk" in the A drive and put your "applications
disk" in the B drive.  This second disk has the programs and data files
you want to use.  If you add a CMD hard dirve, this becomes drive C and a
RAM drive can be called drive M.

On the screen you will see the "system prompt," a letter followed by the
"greater-than" sign and in A>.  This tells you that the A drive is active
and the system is waiting for you to type a command.

To copy the transient command ED (used to create and alter ASCII files)
from the system disk to a RAM-Drive you use the transient command PIP in
the following format.

A> PIP M: = A:ED.COM {RETURN}

What happens:  The transient command PIP.COM is loaded in from the
systems disk and run, it then looks for the file ED.COM on drive A, and
then places a copy of the file on dirve M, PIP.COM then exits returning
you back to the system monitor by displaying A>.

To see if the file was copied at the A> prompt type M: {RETURN}.  This
will make dirve M active, with the prompt now showing M>.  At this point
type DIR {RETURN} which is a built-in command and a listing of all files
on drive M will be displayed and the ED.COM file should be listed.

Check your local library for books on how to use CP/M.  Don't worry about
what platform the books cover, CP/M is CP/M.

The only caveat is disk formats.  Commodore made a CP/M v2.2 cartridge
for the Commodore 64 and the 1541 disk drive.  As such, if this is the
type of system you have you can only use disks that are formatted for the
1541.

If you have a C=128, and a 1571 it will read several non-native Commodore
CP/M disk formats.  These non-native Commodore disk formats are called
"MFM" formats.  The 1571 will read/write to the following:

Epson QX-10
IBM-8 SS (CP/M 86)
IBM-8 DS (CP/M 86)
KayPro II
KayPro IV
Osborne DD

Thus any CP/M file on one of the above disk formats can be read/written
to by the C=128 running CP/M+ v3.0.  This opens up a very large
collection of software that one can use with the Commodore 128 above and
beyond the Commodore specific titles.  There are a great many CP/M User
Groups around.  One of the oldest is FOG (First Osborne Group), I don,t
have an address for them at my finger tips, but check the Net.

I know this is a bit long, but it is an involved subject.  You are
working in a completely different operating system than the normal CBM
Kernal.  CP/M was the defacto standard OS in the early years of micro
computers and both MS-DOS and UNIX owe much to it.  There is a special
version called MP/M that was a network version of CP/M.

Last note, I think that you can still get a copy of the "CP/M Kit" from
Innovative Computer Accessories at 1249 Dowining Street, P.O. Box 789,
Imperial Beach, CA 92032-0837.

I have not used CP/M in a number of years, but feel free to e-mail me any
questions you have, and I will try and give you a good answer.

r8-{)}}}
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:18:44 -0600
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         "Tom A. Gislason" <[e-mail]>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> Attention Commodore Users and Owners,
>
>    I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will
> pay as follows:
>
>
> Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16               $10.00 working condition
> Commodore 64                          $20.00 working condition
> Commodore 128                         $45.00 working condition
> Commodore 1540/1541/1571              $15.00 working condition
> Commodore 1581                        $25.00 working condition
> Commodore 17xx REU                    $20.00 working condition
> Commodore SD drives                   $25.00 working condition
>
> CMD RAMLink                           $60.00 +
>                                       $30.00 per megabyte
>                                     + $10.00 RTC
>                                     + $10.00 Battery BackUp
>
> CMD Hardrive                          $40.00 +
>                                       $  .80 per megabyte (twice current
>                                                 price per megabyte)
>                                     + $10.00 RL to HD Cable
>
> CMD FD-2000                           $100.00
>                                     + $ 10.00 RTC
>
> CMD FD-4000                           $150.00
>                                     + $ 10.00 RTC
>
> CMD SwiftLink                         $15.00
>                                     + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem
>
>
> Lt Kernal Hard Drive                  $20.00 +
>                                       $  .60 per megabyte
>
> Cartridges (fast load type)           $15.00 each
> Cartridges (games/other)              $ 5.00 each
>
> Looking for all kinds of Commodore 8-bit equipment. If you are
> interested in selling anything, please respond via e-mail to;
>
> [e-mail]
>
> I have cash in hand and interested in buying :)
> Sent Via The Playpen BBS...Washington DC's Premier Online Service
> ..TELNET: PLAYPEN.COM...MODEM: [phone]
>

        Friend, I don't know where you get your prices from, but they are
just a little low.............like by a LOT !!!!!!!

        Let's see..........I have the following for sale:
        C=64--------------------$45.00
        C=128-------------------$60.00
        C=1541 drive------------$45.00
        C=64 c/w JD-------------$60.00
        C=1541 drive c/w JD-----$60.00
        C=1520 plotter----------$45.00
        Lt. Kernel 20 meg HD---$200.00
        SFD1001 1 meg drive-----$75.00
        8250 dual drive---------$75.00

        Prices DO NOT include shipping.  All units in good working order.
These prices are MORE in line.

Tom Gislason - Sysop - Emergency Call BBS [phone]  [phone]
Pearako Network Node #10 - CommNet Node #92
Internet address: [e-mail]
FidoNet address: Tom Gislason @ 1:134/281.0
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:53:45 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Tony Perotti <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: JiffyDOS in 1581
X-cc:         [e-mail]

 I usually load most everything from my CMD HD.  I'll try and remember to
 do some sort of load experiment with my 1581 this week.  Do you want #'s
 with JD on and then JD off?
      ____  ,^o    |[e-mail]
       / _  ._     | C=128D,JD,Swiftlink,CMD HD40,
      /_(_)_| )_\/ | Boccamodem 14.4,1581,fun,fun,fun.
        Perotti /  | -=8 bits should be enough for anyone=-
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: JiffyDOS in 1581
Author:  COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]> at
Internet
Date:    6/14/96 11:46 PM


Doesn't anyone have a 1581?

Anyone who uses a C128 have a 1581 and JiffyDOS?  As I asked about last
week, I am wondering if someone could tell me how long it takes to load a
program from your 1581.  Any program.

As I said before, I am finding no improvement loading files in 128 mode.
It is strange, and I am hoping someone can just send me an example of
exactly how long it takes to load some program from your 1581.  Load some
128 program and time how long it takes to load.  If you have Dialogue
128, that would be one example.  Any examples you can give me will do.


- Adam Vardy
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:12:30 +0200
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Jesus Garcia Otero <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

On Sat, 15 Jun 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> Attention Commodore Users and Owners,
>
>    I am seeking to purchase ANY Commodore 8-bit related hardware. I will
> pay as follows:
>
>
> Commodore Vic-20/+4/C16               $10.00 working condition
> Commodore 64                          $20.00 working condition
> Commodore 128                         $45.00 working condition
> Commodore 1540/1541/1571              $15.00 working condition
> Commodore 1581                        $25.00 working condition
> Commodore 17xx REU                    $20.00 working condition
> Commodore SD drives                   $25.00 working condition
>
> CMD RAMLink                           $60.00 +
>                                       $30.00 per megabyte
>                                     + $10.00 RTC
>                                     + $10.00 Battery BackUp
>
> CMD Hardrive                          $40.00 +
>                                       $  .80 per megabyte (twice current
>                                                 price per megabyte)
>                                     + $10.00 RL to HD Cable
>
> CMD FD-2000                           $100.00
>                                     + $ 10.00 RTC
>
> CMD FD-4000                           $150.00
>                                     + $ 10.00 RTC
>
> CMD SwiftLink                         $15.00
>                                     + $ 5.00 per cable/null modem
>
>
> Lt Kernal Hard Drive                  $20.00 +
>                                       $  .60 per megabyte
>
> Cartridges (fast load type)           $15.00 each
> Cartridges (games/other)              $ 5.00 each
>

Very splendid. Better pay nothing !!! Of course, if anyone is interested
in selling for this prices first talk to me.

Jesus Garcia
Dpto. de Fisica Aplicada
Universidad de Santiago de Compostela
SPAIN
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:35:18 EDT
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Denny Springle <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

   First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I
stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale
value whatsoever in the real world, the prices I have indicated are
actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your
equipment. In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I
could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller
in Texas. I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am
being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the
current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards. If you
do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated, or a
price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell
them to me. Simple.

[e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:40:39 -0600
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         "Tom A. Gislason" <[e-mail]>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Denny Springle wrote:

>    First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I
> stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale
> value whatsoever in the real world,

        Well, my friend, I am not sure what world you are on, but there is
a VERY large Commodore community......we even have our own poor man's
internet...........otherwise known as CommNet.......it is a network of
different Commodore 64/128 BBS software all networking together.  Soon, we
hope to have a way to have the network become really international (other
than just Canada and the U.S.)....this BTW, is just a short distance away.

> the prices I have indicated are
> actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your
> equipment. In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I
> could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller
> in Texas. I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am
> being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the
> current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards.

        I am still interested just where you seem to get your numbers.  I
see lots of Commodore equipment for sale, and it sure as heck is no where
the price you are willing to pay.

> If you
> do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated, or a
> price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell
> them to me.                                                      ^^^^

        You can BET on that.

Tom Gislason - Sysop - Emergency Call BBS [phone]  [phone]
Pearako Network Node #10 - CommNet Node #92
Internet address: [e-mail]
FidoNet address: Tom Gislason @ 1:134/281.0
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:42:42 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         STEVE MELLO <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Using the C128 Z80? -Reply

Thanks Larry,

I did the manual last weekend you are referring to..It's very
thick and has programming info also.

The reason for the question about the Z80 is that I was thinking
of working on a program to emulate a TRS-80.  As you know it also
ran on the Z80A (M4).  In order to be able to emulate the machine
I have to do certain things such as trap the I/O events from the
CPU.  I have since found out that it is not possible on the Z80
as it is set up on the C128.  I am still not taking no for an
answer though.  I will look at other ways to do it.  It's for any
particular reason, just that I am fond of the TRS-80 also, and
that as a computer science major, I like to tinker with things.

Thanks for the info.

Steve
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:17:28 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Michael Bendure <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

>    First of all, *MY* prices are not up for discussion, I will pay as I
> stated to pay. Commodore hardware exhibits little or no potential resale
> value whatsoever in the real world, the prices I have indicated are
> actually HIGHER than national Commodore resellers would pay for your
> equipment.

This may be so, but who in their right mind would sell their stuff to you
for what resellers would pay?
Especially on a Commodore Discussion group where the value of these
machines is quite a bit higher.
No one is going to buy a $150 RAMLink and turn around and sell it for
$60.00.  Especially when we could sell them all day long for $100.00
used.

> In fact, for the price you quoted me for the C64 ($45), I
> could purchase a serviced model that includes JiffyDOS from a reseller
> in Texas.

I sell 64's for $35.00 without JiffyDOS.  JiffyDOS runs $25.00 - $30.00
brand new which would increase that price to at least $60.  CMD sells the
64 with JiffyDOS for $75.00.

Again, if you can get the products you want for the prices your asking,
then why are you bothering the Commodore Discussion group?  These folks
rarely sell their equipment and when they do, they sell to other Commodore
users who value the price of their machines.  Your best bet would be to
checkout the garage sales and thrift shops to find stuff at the prices you
quoted.

> I apolgize if these prices seem low to anyone else, but I am
> being more than fair in light of other Commodore resellers and the
> current going price for comparable hardware by todays standards.

Todays standards have nothing to do with the value of these machines.  If
you want to go chip level, it would cost you way more to build a 64 that
what your asking.  The power supply and cabling alone would cost more than
your willing to pay for a complete unit and some of the chips to fix the
machines, if available at all are holding their price and hasn't dropped
that much in the last 7 or 8 years.

I'm not sure what other Commodore resellers your refering to, but no one
on this group would sell to a reseller when they can sell to a Commodore
user and get twice what a reseller would offer.  The only people who sell
to these folks are school systems upgrading to PC, or other companies
getting rid of old stock.

> If you do not want to sell your equipment for the prices I've indicated,
or a
> price we can discuss in E-mail for any package deals, then don't sell
> them to me. Simple.

You can bet that your original message will pull alot of replies, but most
will be of this nature.  You may do better in comp.sys.cbm, but again
you'll be lucky to find what you want at those prices.  Good Luck to you
and I hope you do find them.  I wouldn't mind picking them up myself at
those prices, I need to restock a few items.. :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:07:39 EDT
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         AZSX <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:12:30 +0200 from
              <[e-mail]>

Bueno, esos precios estan dificiles.!.!.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:06:00 EST
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Christopher McLeod
              <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Here's some food for thought:
X-To:         ATKINSONM <[e-mail]>,
              BARNARDA <[e-mail]>,
              BURNETTC <[e-mail]>,
              CARTERC <[e-mail]>,
              DOWC <[e-mail]>,
              HOLDENC <[e-mail]>, JSigdor <[e-mail]>,
              KENDALLS <[e-mail]>,
              MADRIGALG <[e-mail]>, MARCOA <[e-mail]>,
              MORANEC <[e-mail]>, MORRISA <[e-mail]>,
              o'brienp <pamela.o'[e-mail]>,
              RHODEJM <[e-mail]>,
              SANFORDK <[e-mail]>,
              STEWART </S=STEWART-ALLEN/O=[e-mail]>,
              TAYLORA <[e-mail]>,
              VININGC <[e-mail]>,
              VININGE <[e-mail]>,
              VININGK <[e-mail]>,
              weirsmab <[e-mail]>

     Here's some food for thought:

     You may not know about the Darwin Awards - It's an annual honor given
     to the person who did the gene pool the biggest service by killing
     themselves in the most extraordinarily stupid way.

     This year's nominee is:

     The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a pile of smoldering metal
     embedded into the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of
     a curve. The wreckage resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it
     was a car. The type of car was unidentifiable at the scene. The lab
     finally figured out what had happened.
     It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold of a JATO unit (Jet
     Assisted Take Off - actually a solid fuel rocket) that is used to give
     heavy military transport planes an extra "push" for taking off from
     short airfields. He had driven his Chevy Impala out into the desert
     and found a long, straight stretch of road. Then he attached the JATO
     unit to his car, jumped in, got up some speed and fired off the JATO!

     The facts as best as could be determined are that the operator of the
     1967 Impala hit JATO ignition at a distance of approximately 3.0 miles
     from the crash site. This was established by the prominent scorched
     and melted
     asphalt at that location. The JATO, if operating properly, would have
     reached maximum thrust within 5 seconds, causing the Chevy to reach
     speeds well in excess of 350 mph and continuing at full power for an
     additional 20-30 seconds.


     The driver, soon to be pilot, most likely would have experienced
     G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full
     afterburners, basically

causing him to become insignificant for the
     the remainder of the event. However, the automobile remained on the
     straight highway for about 2.5 miles (15-20) seconds before the driver
     applied and completely melted the brakes, blowing the tires and
     leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface, then becoming airborne
     for an additional 1.4 miles and impacting the cliff face
     at a height of 125 feet leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the
     rock.

     Most of the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, small
     fragments of bone, teeth and hair were extracted from the crater and
     fingernail and bone shards were removed from a piece of debris
     believed to be a portion of the steering wheel.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:03:24 EDT
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Denny Springle <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

   First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea
markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as
$10 and 1541/1571/1581 drives as little as $10 but no more than $30
(1581). I buy systems locally for around $100-150 on the norm. I've
purchased CMD drives (80mb) as low as $120 before. Where I get my
pricing from, besides from discussions with the owner of the afore
mentioned reseller in Texas who would pay LESS than I would and has  no
problem purchasing equipment at HIS prices. I thought I was being nice
by offering prices at better than 150% of what I normally pay. Keep in
mind also, that I buy AND sell Commodore equipment at wholesale prices,
we are not talking about retail prices advertised in magazines from
those who likely pay even less than me to buy the equipment to begin
with. Again, I am sorry if you lack the understanding to see what I
mean. I am not in the mainstream of Commodore that you are... I've never
been in the mainstream... but you can believe that I will make my
presence known in the mainstream you know by the end of the year with a
product that will make your CommNet better or obsolete (depends on the
users I guess). It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of
technology... this means greater global support for Commodore users,
cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig
SCSI-2 hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still
charges $400 for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)...
c'mon!), and room for the next generation of Commodore users.

   You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your
point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually
is. Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do
you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in
the Commodore mainstream? 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half. Lets
look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then CMD
will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually, the current
Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore system with
1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000 floppy (cost
currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz for example)
with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit stereo sound, etc.
BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as
$799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick
the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core
like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will
soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose
interest (I've been there). You have a local flea market near you? Check
it out and if you find Commodore hardware, offer them $10 for each piece
and see how much hardware you collect!

   Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here, apparently there
are those of you who are... save it... I don't want to hear it ok...
Those are my prices... take them or leave them... you've made it clear
that *you* won't take so little for your hardware, and that is valiant,
but many other will, so to those that disagree with me, there are three
times as many as you who don't... I should have known not to come to a
Commodore list with this at all, I expected this kind of reaction, and
it both pleases me to see Commodore users defend thier systems and
upsets me that you feel the need to argue with me. This thread ends here
ok... your opinion is valuable and noted, so drop it.

   On the lighter side, what do you think an Internet ready Commodore 64
and 128 version BBS system would do to the Commodore community? I'm
talking TCP/IP support for 28.8 SLIP access with FTP, telnet, and e-mail
support. Imagine the simplicity of inter-networking Commodore based
BBS's via the internet as opposed to LD? Imagine the excitement of
having Commodore c/g BBS's on the Net? This, my friends, is where our
concentration should be directed... it is where mine has been directed
for quite some time now. The future of all computer related technology
will be network based, and the Commodore curse is still around... we're
still behind the times, even though we know our systems can do (almost)
anything thiers can! Commodore died out of stupidity, and what remains
now of a once proud group of computer users is a rag-tag fleet of BBS
systems internetworking to form the CommNet, a few FTP sites, even fewer
lists... The CommNet, though to be honest I never knew someone actually
designed the software required to internetwork among different systems
(something I think I talked about back in 1989 when C*Base v3.x and
DMBBS and Colors 64/128 were in tight competition all with thier own
code and design of networking when I told folks (like Fred and Gunther
that a universal networking protocol would go a long way to saving the
Commodore community).

   But then, I've watched the Commodore community decline more and more
every year since the early 80's and I'm still defending it as a
versatile, user friendly, wonderful little machine. Anyway, if this
sparks your interest, let me know and I'll give you the juicy details,
or if you care to discuss anything OTHER than my prices, then e-mail me.

Sincerely,

Denny Springle
[e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:08:20 EDT
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Denny Springle <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Here's some food for thought:

Ouch! But what a way to go eh?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:00:26 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         "<Guliamo> <Cappucci>" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

 Can we get this guy outta here? What the hell is he smoking? What's
next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with
internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8.
 We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore
will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done
with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too
low!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:18:36 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Michael Bendure <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

>    First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea
> markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as
> $10 and 1541/1571/1581 drives as little as $10 but no more than $30
> (1581).

   Then again, I still don't understand why you even brought the subject
up?  We all know we can get 64's almost for free at garage sells, thrift
stores and flea markets.  Even I get the occassional free 64 from someone
who simply does use theirs anymore.  I won't even discuss the price I paid
for the last 40 systems we purchased.

> I buy systems locally for around $100-150 on the norm.

   That's closer to the right range.  I sell the 64 and 1541 combo for
$75.00.

> I've purchased CMD drives (80mb) as low as $120 before.

   That's less than half the purchase price of simply the controller.  So
how many of these have you bought at these prices, just the one?

> Where I get my pricing from, besides from discussions with the owner of
the afore
> mentioned reseller in Texas who would pay LESS than I would and has  no
> problem purchasing equipment at HIS prices. I thought I was being nice
> by offering prices at better than 150% of what I normally pay.

   Well again, your best bet is to continue the flea market search. :)

> Keep in mind also, that I buy AND sell Commodore equipment at wholesale
prices,
> we are not talking about retail prices advertised in magazines from
those who likely
> pay even less than me to buy the equipment to begin with.

   Then what can I buy a 64 from you for?  If your selling at wholesale
prices, then I should be able to buy from you and still make a profit.
Let me know, you may have a customer. :)

> Again, I am sorry if you lack the understanding to see what I mean.

   But I do see what you mean.  I too buy this stuff from school systems,
flea markets and people who simply give them away.  This doesn't make
their value to the people who want and use these computers any less.  To
the people giving them away, they are worthless.  But to a Commodore user,
whose computer just bit the dust, these things do have value.  Especially
when the chip he needs to fix it, runs around $7.00, or the good power
supplies are $30.00 to $40.00.

> I am not in the mainstream of Commodore that you are...

   This is evident.

> I've never been in the mainstream... but you can believe that I will
make my
> presence known in the mainstream you know by the end of the year with a
> product that will make your CommNet better or obsolete (depends on the
> users I guess).

   According to your standards, it already is. <pfttt..>  But to the 60+
Commodore BBS's in CommNet, it gets better all the time.  But of course,
since your not in the mainstream, you wouldn't know that would you?

> It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of technology...
this
> means greater global support for Commodore users,

   Hmm, I thought CommNet, Fido Net's CBM, CBM_128 and CBM_GEOS, the
Internet's comp.sys.cbm and the 2200 + Web sites that have something to do
with Commodore, already was better Global Support.  Give me a break, how
do you get more global than the Internet..

> cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig
SCSI-2
> hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still charges
$400
> for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)... c'mon!), and room
for the
> next generation of Commodore users.

   You, like the countless other retailers have no concept of what the CMD
HD really means, or consists of.  A 540 Meg SCSI HD, if you can find them
new, are still holding their price at around $180.00.  How much do you pay
for a standard SCSI controller for your PC.  Not a garbage one, but a good
SCSI controller.  How much do you pay for a case and a power supply?  How
about special ports, DOS and other features you have with the CMD.

   You can expect a standard CMD controller to cost around $250.00.
Considering what you can pay for SCSI controllers for the PC, not to
mention the case, power supply and other features.  This is a reasonable
price.  So add whatever price a standard SCSI hard drive to the initial
$250.00 and you'll see why the CMD cost the price it does.  This isn't
even considering the difference in cost to manufacture the few number of
boards they order, compared to the number of boards ordered by companies
who sell standard PC SCSI controllers.

>    You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your
> point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually
> is.

   Again, that depends on your point of view.

> Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do
> you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in
> the Commodore mainstream?

   Well first of all, I was lucky enough not to have to buy the whole
unit.  The price I paid for the controller, case and power supply was well
worth the 5 years of use I got out of it considering the price I paid for
one 1541-II when they were new.  Second of all, I wouldn't buy a CMD HD
and consider selling it at all, even if I had to.  Its not an investment
that we even consider making our money back on.  If I actually had to sell
my CMD HD, I would ask any less than $200.00 for just the controller.
Funny thing is, I could get that today..

> 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half.

   This is where your wrong.  I can sell my controller right now for
$30.00 less than I paid for it.

> Lets look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then
CMD
> will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually,

   Yeah, we've heard that line for the last several years.. heheh

> the current Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore
> system with 1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000
> floppy (cost currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz
> for example)  with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit
> stereo sound, etc.

   This is where your wrong.  Many Commodore users already have the
Multi-Media
Monsters.  The cost of the CMD stuff is justified because there are no
other HD's available with the support and compatibility of the CMD.  The
users buy them for the same reason PC users buy a Matrox Millenium Video
Card instead of the $50.00 VGA Card.

> BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as
> $799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick
> the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core
> like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will
> soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose
> interest (I've been there).

   Considering these are 13 year old machines and the PC has been in the
mainstream for many years now and still hasn't gotten it right, I don't
see much of a scare yet.

> You have a local flea market near you? Check it out and if you find
Commodore hardware, offer them $10 for each piece
> and see how much hardware you collect!

   Duh..  Like don't you think we who sell this stuff does the same thing
you do?

>    Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here, apparently there
> are those of you who are... save it... I don't want to hear it ok...

   Well you opened yourself up for it.  :)

> Those are my prices... take them or leave them... you've made it clear
> that *you* won't take so little for your hardware, and that is valiant,
> but many other will, so to those that disagree with me, there are three
> times as many as you who don't... I should have known not to come to a
> Commodore list with this at all, I expected this kind of reaction, and
> it both pleases me to see Commodore users defend thier systems and
> upsets me that you feel the need to argue with me.
> This thread ends here ok... your opinion is valuable and noted, so drop
it.

   No problem with me.  I really didn't want to get into this in the first
palce,
but I could help myself.  Actually, if I didn't see someone else get brave

I wouldn't have just let it go.. :)

>    On the lighter side, what do you think an Internet ready Commodore 64
> and 128 version BBS system would do to the Commodore community? I'm
> talking TCP/IP support for 28.8 SLIP access with FTP, telnet, and e-mail
> support. Imagine the simplicity of inter-networking Commodore based
> BBS's via the internet as opposed to LD? Imagine the excitement of
> having Commodore c/g BBS's on the Net? This, my friends, is where our
> concentration should be directed... it is where mine has been directed
> for quite some time now.

   This would indeed be interesting and there are already several folks in
CBM land that has been concentrating on this as well.  There is already a
SLIP demo and I beleive a mini IRC client available for the  64.  In order
to do what you want, you would have to make your package available to all
the existing BBS programs already in existance.  Although an exclusive BBS
that uses this process would be nice as well, I think you'll find that
many BBS Sysops will continue to run whatever it is they are running now,
despite the Internet ploy.

   Just so you know, CommNet is as we speak, connecting to the Fido
Network and have access to most of the other IBM Networks through a
Wildcat BBS connection we are making.  We also plan on connecting to the
Internet, but only for the CBM content, just like with Fido and the other
IBM BBS Networks.  CommNet allows the BBS sysop to continue running their
existing system, regardless of the BBS program, as well as being connected
to any other Commodore BBS.  Once we make the Fido CBM areas available,
all that is left is the Internet connection.

> The future of all computer related technology will be network based, and

> the Commodore curse is still around... we're still behind the times,
even
> though we know our systems can do (almost) anything thiers can!

   Sounds to me your already behind the times.  We have been networked
with C-Net 64 DS2 BBS since 1989, so has Image and a year or so later,
C-Net 128.  Color 64 and the others even had some form or another of
Networking for quite some time.

> Commodore died out of stupidity, and what remains
> now of a once proud group of computer users is a rag-tag fleet of BBS
> systems internetworking to form the CommNet,

   Well considering that C-Net 64, C-Net 128 and Image were the most
popular, sold more copies and has the largest support groups of any other
Commodore 64 or 128 BBS systems, I wouldn't call that rag-tag.  Also
considering that CommNet is more than just a bunch of hacked mods
connecting a BBS systems.  Its an actual reallife attempt to create a
standard between different BBS platforms run on the Commodore 64 and 128
BBS's.  We all use the same connection and packet structure based on the
Hub/Node or Server/Client type setup.

> a few FTP sites, even fewer lists...

  Have you tried a Yahoo or Lycos search yet?  Last time I did, there were
over 2200 entries.!!

> The CommNet, though to be honest I never knew someone actually
> designed the software required to internetwork among different systems

   This is because no one person did.  CommNet is a result of about 5
different programmers from different BBS platforms.  We all hacked a quick
connection and laid down a standard format we could all use with our
existing BBS/Networking programs.  The connection and packet structure was
agreed upon and we designed each of our systems to meet that standard.
CommNet took me three years just to get people interested in the idea and
another year or so to find the people who could or would do the
programming.  We are still searching for programmers from Color 64, V128,
C*Base and Omni that want to join into CommNet.  All they have to do is
stick to the standard and they can connect and convert the packets into
their structure.

> (something I think I talked about back in 1989 when C*Base v3.x and
> DMBBS and Colors 64/128 were in tight competition all with thier own
> code and design of networking when I told folks (like Fred and Gunther
> that a universal networking protocol would go a long way to saving the
> Commodore community).

   I actually worked with Eric Hodges with DMBBS, but he dropped the whole
network idea with them.  I even got Fred Ogle to send me a copy of Color
64 to help convert their network over, but the disks he sent were blank
and I never heard from him again.  When I mentioned it to Gunther, he just
laughed and said it would never work.  Well, here we are two years later
and five+ Networks strong and even starting Fido connections.  Nah, it'll
never work.. hehe

>    But then, I've watched the Commodore community decline more and more
> every year since the early 80's and I'm still defending it as a
> versatile, user friendly, wonderful little machine. Anyway, if this
> sparks your interest, let me know and I'll give you the juicy details,
> or if you care to discuss anything OTHER than my prices, then e-mail me.

   More than glad to discuss anything other than prices.  BTW, if your
interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me.. hehe..
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:23:15 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Michael Bendure <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

>  Can we get this guy outta here? What the hell is he smoking? What's
> next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with
> internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8.

   Hmm, where do we get these people.. hehe

   Apparently, your not using the right hardware/software combination.
Are you using ACEterm with an REU and a Swiftlink?  I can achieve 28.8
quite nicely thank you.  I beleive Craig Bruce is doing 115.2K baud with
his combination.  Given the right software/hardware combination 28.8 is a
simple connection for the 64 or 128.

>  We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore
> will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done
> with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too
> low!

   Try ACEterm, you'll be amazed.  Almost forgot, you need a shell
account. :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:44:36 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         "<Guliamo> <Cappucci>" <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

Where can i find aceterm? will it support graphics in any way(internet)?
Or is it a text based browser. Someone please tell me more!
 I am willing to buy this program if at all possible!

[e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:19:08 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         David Meads <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Here's some food for thought:

The JATO apparatus is used by the Blue Angels (Navy
aerobatic/demonstration flying team) in their C-130 Hercules transport
aircraft...enabling the plane to ascend to about a thousand feet in
seconds.  This guy apparently never realized the awesome power of this
rocket motor apparatus until it was too late.  Should've done it on the
dry lake bed at Edwards.   :>

     -----
    I     I
---------------
     de
       Hat                [e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:53:07 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Tony Perotti <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re[2]: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

 ACETerm is part of a Unix-like operating system for the 64/128 done by
 Craig Bruce and it is freeware.  From a recent post in comp.sys.cbm:

 "For those interested, I have finished editing the Programmer's Reference
 Guide for ACE Release #15.  Some of the descriptions for the newest calls
 are lacking, but I'm tired.
 You can get the file from FTP host "ccnga.uwaterloo.ca" in directory
 "/pub/cbm/os/ace" in file "ace15-prg.doc".  Or you can get it on the Web
 through URL:
 http://ccnga.uwaterloo.ca/~csbruce/mycommie.html
 Keep on Hackin'!
 -Craig Bruce
 [e-mail]"
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
Author:  COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]> at
Internet
Date:    6/19/96 9:44 PM


Where can i find aceterm? will it support graphics in any way(internet)?
Or is it a text based browser. Someone please tell me more!
 I am willing to buy this program if at all possible!

[e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:59:30 PDT
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         [e-mail]
Subject:      CommNet Information
X-cc:         [e-mail]

>
>   More than glad to discuss anything other than prices.  BTW, if your
>interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me.. hehe..
>
Hi.  I couldn't put in all the text, but the last line, the one above,
got my attention.  I would like information on how to connect
to CommNet.  I can be reached here or at one of the addresses
below.  Thanx

Vic Carrillo
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:43:43 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Gaelyne Moranec <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment
In-Reply-To:  <[e-mail]>

On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, <Guliamo> <Cappucci> wrote:

> next, pipeline access to the internet? No way, I've already played with
> internet for the commodore 64&128 you're not going to achieve 28.8.

A distinction.  I agree that high speed modems aren't needed for the
Internet because the net itself isn't flying these days, but you CAN
acheive 28.8k and higher *connections* to your service provider. It
helps for downloading and time spent using utilities your ISP provides,
but when it comes to Web browsing, currently my ISP is only acheiving
speeds of around 300cps, so a 2400 baud modem would be sufficient.

But as you know, there's more to the Internet than WWW.

>  We can use the internet however via LYNX web-browsing. Your commodore
> will have to be in 80 column ANSI terminal to use it. This can be done
> with a program called NOVATERM 9.3 or 9.5. and your prices are way too
> low!

You can also use Dialogue 128 or Desterm for 128 users.  VT100 emulation
is usually the better choice of emulation terminals, but that depends on
the service you phone.

As for prices, well...  what bothers me most about posting prices such
as this in a Commodore forum is that I worry it will devalue our
equipment further and rather than it being a help, it hurts the base
of users which already exists.  My other concern is for the few users on
the edge of deciding to pack it all in seeing an "easy way out" and
abandoning their systems.  On the flip side of this, it's no worse than
most pawn shops - buying low and selling high.  In this case, though it
stands a better chance the equipment will be returned to Commodore users
instead of sitting in a dusty pawn shop.

My five cents.  Change not required.

Cheers,
Gaelyne


  //\         /\\    Gaelyne R. Moranec (Gasson)   Fidonet:
 || * \ . . / * ||   90 Hilliers Rd                  1:366/221.128
  \\____\X/____//    Reynella, S.A. 5161             3:800/809.128
   / *  /O\  * \     Australia
   \__/  "  \__/
                     [e-mail] / [e-mail]

http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec
QWKRR: http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec/qwkrr/qtoc.html
Speaking only for myself and not for any employers or publications.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:03:59 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Michael Bendure <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: CommNet Information

> >   More than glad to discuss anything other than prices.  BTW, if your
> >interested in connecting to CommNet, you know where to reach me..
hehe..
> >
> Hi.  I couldn't put in all the text, but the last line, the one above,
> got my attention.  I would like information on how to connect
> to CommNet.  I can be reached here or at one of the addresses
> below.  Thanx

  Well, I'd need a little information.  First off, do you run a BBS?  If
so, what program and version?
If the BBS you run isn't already connected to CommNet, we would need
someone who knows the BBS program and can write a few moduals or edit
existing programs to make it work.  I have a complete layout of our packet
structure and connection procedure if your interested.  Ed Wilson and
myself can assist you on any programming you may need help with.  Let me
know, we would be glad to have you. :)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:19:00 EST
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Christopher McLeod
              <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Shell accounts

     Can anyone out there recommend a good ISP?  I have been using CServe
     for my internet searching (w ANSI color), but recently started trying
     out an ISP called Concentric Internet Service (or something like
     that).

     The problem is that accessing the WWW is MUCH faster through CServe
     than it is through this ISP.  The ISP is nice because I can do
     bookmarks, download files, etc (using LYNX) but reaching the same site
     through CServe takes 1/3rd of the time that my ISP does.

     What gives?  I am using NovaTerm 9.5 with a SwiftLink at 9600.

     What happens on the ISP (for those of you who are familiar with LYNX)
     is that the bottom of the screen will say "512 bytes of data received"
     and then I will wait for probably 1.5 to 3 minutes and it will not
     have changed.  This doesn't happen EVERY time but frequently enough to
     make it irritating.  Other times it "gets" the data successfully, but
     much slower than going throug CServe.

     Any hope?

     Chris McLeod
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:43:37 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Doug Cotton <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Thought you should see this

>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Denny Springle wrote:

> It's time Commodore stepped into the real mainstream of
> technology... this means greater global support for Commodore users,
> cheaper technology (you know, like why is it that you can buy a 1 gig
> SCSI-2 hard drive for $200 in your local computer store, but CMD still
> charges $400 for a 1/2 gig drive (which costs them about $90)...
> c'mon!), and room for the next generation of Commodore users.

I really take exception to this. Your assumption that we pay only $90 for a
500 MB drive mechanism is way off. If you know of a consistant source for
new drives of that capacity at the indicated price, I'd sure like to know
who it is. That aside, your entire comment with regard to the price
comparison is misleading. Reading your comment, once would be led to
believe that CMD charges customers $400 for something we paid $90 for.
That's simply absurd. The mechanism is only part of what goes into a CMD
HD. In fact, we put well over that $90 figure you spouted into parts for
the case/controller/power supply before we ever purchase the drive
mechanism that goes along with it. Try this comparison. Check the latest
MacWorld. I found an external 500 MB SCSI drive listed there for $169. Now
add a SCSI controller. Cheapest one I could find was an Adaptec for $299.
Total cost: $468. Now consider that the average file on a Mac or Windows
machine is probably ten times the size of a Commodore file, and maybe
you'll begin to understand that even when you do direct comparisons of
hardware, there's much more to be considered. All in all, you get a lot
more power for your Commodore for an equivalent price in hardware.

Your comments about cheaper technology do not take the actual Commodore
market into consideration. While we at CMD adapt mainstream technology to
the Commodore, there's a cost involved in doing that. Granted, that
technology gets cheaper as time goes on, and ironically, so do the prices
we charge for products we make that incorporate those components. But you
always (even in the Windows market) pay a premium for products from a
company that maintains ongoing R & D into incorporating new technology.
Compare the price of a computer system from IBM with that of a similar
system from Packard Bell. The IBM will generally cost more, and that is
directly related to higher overhead costs. So if you want lower costs for
CMD-like products, what you need is to get some Korean or Taiwanese
companies involved in making CMD product clones, by-passing the high R & D
costs of developing such things from scratch. Problem with that is our
market doesn't offer enough sales volume to make this feasible for such
companies. Of course, the biggest problem is that even if you threw out R &
D costs and had the sales volume to dump a million hard drives a year into
the Commodore market, you still could never produce the stand-alone drive
necessary to work on a Commodore at price that could directly compete with
the raw mechanisms employed in Windows machine.

>    You may not agree with my prices, and from I see and understand your
> point of view, you feel your equipment is more valuable than it actually
> is. Tell me, if you bought one of CMD's $400 500mb drives, how much do
> you think you could get for it if you tried to sell it the next day in
> the Commodore mainstream? 3/4 if you're lucky... more likely half.

Of course, this depends on who you sell it to. But then, this applies to
anything  you buy NEW -- the quickest drop in value comes the minute it
goes from being new to being used. Since most people don't buy something
new with the intent of selling it immediately as used, I guess I fail to
see your point, unless it's to state that people would be better off
(value-wise) to buy things used. Great idea. Not sure who'll be making the
new stuff that will eventually become used, though, if everyone followed
that line of thinking.

> Lets look at it another way... if Commodore prices don't go down then CMD
> will go out of business (at least in the US) eventually,

If our prices are the ones you're talking about, consider this: If we
substantially reduce our prices, we won't be able to afford to stay in (the
Commodore) business. I'd rather gamble on maintaining prices that keeps our
business alive until such time as there isn't a large enough market to do
so than lower prices and be the certain instrument of our own demise.

> the current
> Commodore users will weigh the cost of having a Commodore system with
> 1/2 gig HD, 4mb RL, SwiftLink & 28.8 modem, and an FD-2000 floppy (cost
> currently about $1000) against a PC system (486dx4 100mhz for example)
> with 1 gig HD, 8mb RAM, Multimedia CD-ROM, 16(32) bit stereo sound, etc.
> BRAND NEW for less than that (I've seen systems such as this as low as
> $799 in Computer Shopper) and will port over to those systems and stick
> the Commodore in the closet or in the trash, or if they are a hard-core
> like me (and you!), they might keep it around to play with, but will
> soon get bored with the basic c64/128, 1541/1571/1581 setup and lose
> interest (I've been there).

So, in effect you're saying that Commodore users, on a large scale, will
basically turn away from one orphan to start using another orphan? After
all, the machine you're talking about is just barely sufficient to run a
portion of the programs presently being sold in the Windows market. Within
a year, 486 owners will be expected to expand their memory to 24 MB in
order to remain current (this is the requirement for running a 486 with
Windows NT 4, soon to replace Windows 95 in the market as the operating
system that all new software will be written to operate on).
If you don't upgrade, then you're ophaned completely in that market, as you
won't find software in the mainstream capable of running on your machine
for long. Even in the short term, what's the cost to duplicate all the
software that Commodore users presently have for their Commodore on that
'inexpensive' 486? Heck, you can add $100 or more right away just to get a
word processor.

>    Anyway, I am not trying to start an arguement here,

Nor am I. But just as you are entitled to your OPINION, so is everyone
else, myself included. And I definately reserve the right to respond to any
posting that would seem to imply that CMD is price-gouging when, in fact,
we simply make a reasonable living, and charge what is necessary to
maintain our buisness to allow us to continue to innovate. We could all
double or triple our salaries by jumping to a mainstream platform, and
individually do much less work than we presently do. But then we wouldn't
be doing something we enjoy as much as breathing new life into our favorite
computers.

Doug Cotton
email: [e-mail]

======================================================================
|    Creative Micro Designs, Inc.    |    Orders:  (800) 6383-CMD    |
|    P.O. Box 646                    |    Support: [phone]    |
|    East Longmeadow, MA 01028       |    Fax:     [phone]    |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|         Visit our WWW Site at: http://www.the-spa.com/cmd/         |
======================================================================
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:15:13 -0500
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Bruce <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: WANTED: Commodore Equipment

-- [ From: Bruce * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Denny wrote:

   First of all, I normally purchase equipment through want ads, flea
markets, and the like. I am used to purchasing C64's for as little as $10 ..
...

[Big clip]

Denny, I think the objections came because of the commercial intent rather
then the low prices.  You see, this is not a flea market, nor a garage sale.
 This is a mailing list.  Mailists are one of the few reaches of the
Internet that have not yet been corrupted by commercialism.  Try making the
same original post a few years ago and you would probably have been engulfed
by all the flames even if you had offered higher prices.  The point is,
since C='s are a  disappearing breed and this is the only place (the
Internet) to really trade with a lot of people buying and selling by
individuals is encouraged.  But company's will always get flamed, and it
very much seems you are a company, not an individual.  There are many C=
resellers still around and I can't recall any of them coming here and
offering wholesale prices for stuff.

Now, when you have finished your bbs or tcp/ip or whatever, feel free to
post an announcement telling us all about it.  But don't be surprised if you
get a bad reaction from a bunch of active C= users when you tell them their
machine is only worth $10.00.  When you find a C=64 at a flea market cheap,
it is because it has been abandoned by it's owner.  The owner stopped using
it.  We have not stopped using ours and they are not without value to us and
to other active users.

Well, I don't mean to rant on, please do not take offense, just trying to
explain the reaction you got.

Take care,

Z
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:33:12 -0400
Reply-To:     COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
Sender:       COMMODORE COMPUTERS DISCUSSION <[e-mail]>
From:         Gaelyne Moranec <[e-mail]>
Subject:      Re: Shell accounts
In-Reply-To:  <34960620201943/[e-mail]>

On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Christopher McLeod wrote:

>      Can anyone out there recommend a good ISP?  I have been using CServe
>      for my internet searching (w ANSI color), but recently started trying
>      out an ISP called Concentric Internet Service (or something like
>      that).
>
>      The problem is that accessing the WWW is MUCH faster through CServe
>      than it is through this ISP.  The ISP is nice because I can do
>      bookmarks, download files, etc (using LYNX) but reaching the same site
>      through CServe takes 1/3rd of the time that my ISP does.

According to the reports (I'm a Concentric subscriber), the servers are
overloaded here and they are supposed to be improving things by July
1st. If you want, I'll keep you posted.
>
>      What gives?  I am using NovaTerm 9.5 with a SwiftLink at 9600.

Internet meltdown.  ;-)    BTW, this is EXACTLY what it has been like
for me in Australia.  You don't think they're trying to make me feel at
home do you?  I hope not...

>      What happens on the ISP (for those of you who are familiar with LYNX)
>      is that the bottom of the screen will say "512 bytes of data received"
>      and then I will wait for probably 1.5 to 3 minutes and it will not
>      have changed.  This doesn't happen EVERY time but frequently enough to
>      make it irritating.  Other times it "gets" the data successfully, but
>      much slower than going throug CServe.

Welcome to slow city.  Yes, this is this my experience here too.  To be
fair though, when I joined the end of May, it was downright impressive.
I'm hoping it'll improve.  Lately I save web browsing for Delphi (with
its new Lynx25-FM), or GEnie (which has had Lynx for sometime now).

On cris/concentric, I use it for the unlimited usuage - which is
something I don't have with either GEnie or Delphi.  Besides, I found
"uqwk.old" on line so I can read mail offline with QWKRR.  :-)

>      Any hope?

I always have hope.  I hope it gets better as of the 1st of July.

Cheers,
Gaelyne


  //\         /\\    Gaelyne R. Moranec (Gasson)   Fidonet:
 || * \ . . / * ||   90 Hilliers Rd                  1:366/221.128
  \\____\X/____//    Reynella, S.A. 5161             3:800/809.128
   / *  /O\  * \     Australia
   \__/  "  \__/
                     [e-mail] / [e-mail]

http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec
QWKRR: http://www.msen.com/~brain/guest/Gaelyne_Moranec/qwkrr/qtoc.html
Speaking only for myself and not for any employers or publications.



=END=