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<C> 1994 by GEnie ========================================================================== This file is brought to you by The Commodore 64/128 RoundTable on GEnie This file may be published or excerpted in User Group newsletters providing credit is given in this manner: "Copyright 1994 by GEnie From the Commodore 64/128 RoundTable File#:#####" This file maybe be distributed, if distributed whole and unaltered, on <RETURN>, <S>croll, <Q>uit ? non-profit BBSs or non-profit networks. For more information on GEnie call by modem: 1-800-638-8369 (8-N-1 300/1200/2400) Enter: HHH Then reply: xtx99018,commrt Then enter: Commodore And enjoy! ========================================================================== The Commdore RT once again, brings you something new! The firts ever DEMO Conference! Tonight Eddie Bourdon (Monday Night Host) Explores the Demo World with Elwix of the Demo Group Style! Read on, who knows! You might get inspired and create a Demo! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- <Eddie> Tonight , we have a special guest, Elwix from the demo group Style. <Elwix/Style> Ok... <tap tap tap>, hello everyone :) <Eddie> We are going to begin with a series of questions, to be followed by a Q&A session. If you have any questions, just type /rai. First off, When did you start using computer, and what kind? <Elwix/Style> I used my first computer at this older friends apartment, perhaps as I was 12 or 13... it was an Apple II, and I got hooked on playing wizardy and the such. That's when I fell in love with computers. <Eddie> When was it that you first took an interest into programming and demos? <Elwix/Style> That was a bit later when I got a c128 for xmas. I started programming BASIC stuff in the 128 mode coz it had nice gfx commands in it's BASIC... As for demos... well, admittance: I got some cracked games and started seeing these intros. And they caught my attention, the better intros were pretty creative and I wondered if I could do them or something like them. A lot more sophisticated than my BASIC programs. <Eddie> When was it that you did your first demo, and what was it? <Elwix/Style> Ok, I guess I "coded" this little thing as my first attempt at ML, a silly little text screen, with just a big blue colorwash going on top. Really simple! but I thought it was pretty cool at the time. But if you count "real" demos, I did a page for FOE in 1990, so that really starts my demo coding <Eddie> QT, our hostess with the mostess has a question :) <QT> How did you go about teaching yourself to program in BASIC and ML? <Elwix/Style> As for BASIC, I had the christmas break from highschool, so I had the c128 book that came with the machine. I read it and jumped right in using the book as a reference. ML was harder since I didn't have much of a reference guide. only the opcode set. I mean, the assembly language. LDA STA, etc. But no real programming guide. So I used those little ML monitors to mess around, either looking at other programs or trying to write small assembly programs. <Eddie> Lou Schonder has a question <C128.LOU> In the back (or front) of your mind, are you considering, writing a full-blown program? Have you any desire to do so? <Elwix/Style> Well, full blown in what sense? I guess some demos feel pretty full blown, especially my more elaborate ones. But if you mean like, Novaterm. I doubt it! I have written some small-medium sized tools, like Wix Bouncer, or Page Edit, but they pretty specific to demos. The closest thing to big is this LIFE program I'm making, to let you edit and save/load LIFE patterns like displayed in Alive. a nice editor for designing them. <Eddie> We have all seen and ejoyed many demos, but what really makes up a demo? What are things like rasters, bobs, scrollers, ect, and what do they do for a demo? <Elwix/Style> I think the typical demo for the most part involves a series of pages. Each page is centered around (usually) 1 or maybe more effects. An often used effect is a scroller, which is some long buffer of text being displayed in some weird way. sinus wave scrolls, etc. Rasters are the horizontal color changes you see alot, the colors are chosen for a particular blend or scale that looks good. Bobs are a name from the Amiga, basically large plotted objects. Little smiley faces perhaps as opposed to plotting single pixels, which is called dot plotting. :) <Eddie> What is the major difference between demos that are NTSC vs PAL demos, and what does it take to 'NTSC Fix' a demo that was done for a PAL system? <Elwix/Style> The major difference is in the video standard or I guess display standard for montors (I'm no hardware guy so that's a laymans words for certain!) PAL has somthing like 260 "raster lines" per screen, NTSC has 200. But the worst trouble in in "cycles per scanline". On NTSC this works out to 65 cycles per raster, PAL 63. This means very timing critical routines - for example, FLI, will completely fail to work on a machine the routine wasn't written for. So that's why you see rasters flickering, or shaky logos, or complete pages crashing in NTSC - the timing is off, and it really wreaks havok. To fix this, it requires going through the code, finding timing critical routines, and changing the timing slightly so the routine works in NTSC. Sometimes rewriting whole sections of code is necessary. <Eddie> QT has a question. <QT> Would this timing difference cause graphics NOT to appear on the screen at all? <Elwix/Style> Yes, for example, FLI written on a PAL machine, won't display the picture on NTSC, and vice versa. So if you get some kind of load & run FLI picture from PAL guy, it won't display or just show garbage. <QT> Ok, now I know why none of the new demo's I just downloaded will work, thanks! <Eddie> And I take it that the same would be true when viewing a NTSC page on a PAL system? <Elwix/Style> Yep, the same in reverse. Usually it's NTSC that sufferes more, because PAL just have more rasterlines (ergo, more time) each FRAME PASS (each time the screen is redrawn). So they can really put more on a page) If a PAL page used all it's rastertime, and we view it here, there's just not enough raster time, and generally the page flickers like crazy. That won't happen for a PAL user watching NTSC demos. it's just the timing critical things that mess up. <Eddie> QT has a question. <QT> So, is there nothing us NTSC folks can do short of learning how to NTSC fix the PAL demos then, right? <Elwix/Style> The only other solution beside NTSC fixing these demos, is getting some sort of PAL chip. I believe you need a PAL VIC chip. but I'm not certain that's all. There are people in the demo scene with PAL c64's, just to watch the demos. haha <QT> aha! Where can one find such a chip? <Elwix/Style> Well, probably from a European! Actually you can find alot who want to swap PAL VIC for NTSC. <QT> ok, thanks :) <Elwix/Style> By reading diskmags, or posting onto Usenet Internet news <Eddie> How would someone who wants to program demos go about learning how to do it? I know that Scibax put out a 'Demo Academy' and that Phantom did 'Coders World'..would you recommend any of these or anything else to people who want to learn? <Elwix/Style> Absolutely. I hear people who've used alot of stuff from both those, it helped them figure out the basics. I think you need to understand assembly itself first, but those mags give you the tricky info on how to use the VIC chip to scroll, display sprites, gfx, etc etc. basic demo effects to get started with! <Eddie> I also noticed that Scibax included a few of your utilities with his package :) <Elwix/Style> Yea, he tried to make a little collection of useful demo tools. hehe. Actually it's Livefire (the guys handle), and related news is that he should be making a new bimonthly disk mag, purely for presenting good articles on demo making, (coding, art, music), in the Demo Academy vein. <Eddie> That's some good news :) Now, our final topic: The demo scene today. <Elwix/Style> Indeed! Its seeming right now through internet there is a little bit of rising interest to learn how to code demos again. So it ought to be a great help to these people. <Eddie> Qt has a question. <QT> any word when this might be available (the bi-monthly disk)? <Elwix/Style> Hopefully it should be released on the inbetween-Driven months, starting we hope July. <QT> great! <Eddie> Now, our final topic[ The demo scene today. How many groups would you say are active in the demo scene today? <Elwix/Style> I believe there are about 9-10, NTSC demo groups. There could be 40 or 50 in Europe! hehe. Or more. The demo scene in Poland and Hungary seem to be rising like crazy. Also there are some solo type people making demos on a regular basis. It's a small but finally rising again. :) <Eddie> On the average, how many demos are released in a 4 month span? (NTSC + PAL) <Elwix/Style> I have no idea in PAL. Maybe 30 or 40 in 4 months, counting everything. ?? <Eddie> sure <Elwix/Style> In NTSC, well, in the first 4 months of 95, there've been about 11 or 12. Back in the real golden age for demos in NTSC, there might have been 30 or 40 as well. But it's rising again, so that's a good thing. <Eddie> Are most of these available on the Internet, or is there somwhere else that they are available? <Elwix/Style> All the NTSC demos are definitely available on FTP at ftp.funet.fi (dir: /pub/cbm/c64/demos/ntsc ) I mean, all the recent ones. there are a lot of old classics as well, but there's even more that aren't up yet. I hope to get my whole collection there soon. <Elwix/Style> Also I should mention: The demo BBS, Corrosion of Conformity, where you can also find all the newest demos & tools. 905-385-8014 (Driven too!) <Eddie> hehe..I call the COC bbs :) <Elwix/Style> ah! Great! :) <Eddie> Here is a question that I've really been wanting to ask you: (not counting Style) What is your favorite group of all time, and your favorite demo? <Elwix/Style> blarg! <QT> giggle <Eddie> I've never heard of them ;) <Elwix/Style> It's sooo hard to say. Really, Arson was incredible. They release such a quantity of demos, and really big megademos. They set the pace in those golden days. Their two best coders were really good, nice original effects. I doubt any group will ever make as many major demos as they did. Wanderer deserves a big mention to, as I found him quite inspirational. He seemed to really enjoy coding and making demos. Fav demo? Well, I really can't name the best. It's sounding terrible but I like my own demos :) I try very hard making them something very different from anything else. But demos that struck me somehow include: Grand Posse, most of the Bonzai demos, True Lord, most of the Electron demos, Summerrain :) <Eddie> I enjoyed the Electron demos too..Then again, I really loved Hitchhiker's Guide :) Qt has another question..after that, we will open the floor for general conversation. <QT> Well, this is pretty involved. <Elwix/Style> hehe, well, it's nice when some group or person can set their work off someway. make different demos, but keep an identifying trademark <QT> How do you prepare to make a demo, where do you start? <Elwix/Style> Usually it starts with some weird idea. Often just some daydreaming. Demo making is my main hobby, so I'm usually thinking about what effect or idea to create. Then it usually simmers for awhile, after the initial idea. It takes me some time these days to finally decide to do the demo, as I havn't got as much of it lately. <QT> Never enough hours in the day <Elwix/Style> I layout the whole thing in my head, the effect, the design of the page or demos, what I'll need for it (music, gfx) that I need to ask other people for (I can't draw or compose!) Then I just sit down, and start. Alot of the time it takes less days to actually program what I wanted, than it did to think the whole thing out! <QT> sound like fun :) <Elwix/Style> With a group demo like Gold, it's more a process of communicating with the other coders & group members about what to do. It takes more orginization as far as getting people together. <QT> have you ever attended a demo party? <Elwix/Style> Demo party: No. they're all in Europe! :( Well, of course, America is just to spread out f a party to work here. the c64 per square mile ratio is much smaller here than in Europe ;) <Eddie> My final question is what can we expect from Style in the future? <Elwix/Style> About Style, well, there are: more NTSC fixes of demos, a new gfx editor that ought to be the best in it's class, and two big demos. One's in that limbo state of 90% completion, the other oughta be out this summer. Hopefully some small tools and or small demo in between. :) <Eddie> I want to thank you for stopping by tonight, it was as fun as it was informative. I'm going to open the room to general chat now. <Elwix/Style> No problem, anything to help stir up interest for this little demo subculture :) This forum for electronc art. <Eddie> Now I'll have to go get the demos that I've missed :) <Elwix/Style> Haha. well, I wish I could get them sent to FTP faster, but it takes too much time for disk demos. There's really alot of great classics still missing from funet <Eddie> And a lot of them get corrupted, too. I've d/l a bunch that just wouldn't un-lzh <Elwix/Style> Eddie/QT - certainly now you've been inspired, to start coding and making demos. eh? :) <QT> hehe, I'm trying my best to learn ML, it'll be awhile. <Eddie> I've been trying. I have Butterfield's book on ML, as well as a lot of other tutorials that I've been fooling with. <Elwix/Style> Hmm, well, the PAL demos maintainers want to use lzh for some reason, arg. I'd just as soon keep them in c64 formats. <QT> Elwix, how long does it usually take for demos such as the ones released from teh X-95 party to be converted for us NTSC folks? <Eddie> even an .arc would be better, with sfx being the best. <Elwix/Style> I'll tell you, the best book there is, IMO, what helped me the most, is Mapping the c64. <QT> I'll have to post for it in the Wanted area <Eddie> You can, QT, right after my post ;) <QT> giggle <Elwix/Style> QT - out of the 5 winners at X-95, probably only 2 can ever be fixed. <QT> uggh I dl'd the winner.RadioNapalm. It sounds great. Hope someday can see it too :( <Elwix/Style> These days PAL demos just go crazy. they're amazing, I hear, but they're totally unviewable on NTSC, and pretty much unfixable.. <QT> ::sigh:: <Eddie> I gotta get a PAL 64, that's all there is to it! <Elwix/Style> And there just aren't enough people fixing them! <QT> giggle, me too! Which 2 do you think can be fixed? <Elwix/Style> We got one of the best fixers still active, Massive Onslaught, so at least some we can get. QT - we think MO can fix Contraflow and World Demise. <QT> no go on RN tho, eh? <Elwix/Style> We're also pretty sure we can get the World of Code series fixed. <Eddie> So, are we looking at a good write up in Driven #9? :) <Elwix/Style> Haha! Yes of coz, well, your article is quite good. so it's destined for #8 or #9. <Eddie> Hopefully we will continue to get more people interested. Many people that sold their C='s are now coming back to them. I love it :) <Elwix/Style> Ya, Internet has been incredible in getting people active again. when I got on in 91 the Usenet group for c64 was just so so. But now they seem to get 200 or 300 new postings each couple weeks. <jbee> That's not bad at all! <Eddie> I've noticed the jump. Even our users group has grown. We gained 8 new members in the last 3 months. Not bad for a small area. <Elwix/Style> Indeed. plus now it's so much easier to get new software for your c64, from all parts of the world. <jbee> I think the "information super highway" has made all computer users, including Commodore owners more aware of the stuff out there that might interest them. <Eddie> A good thing that I've noticed, too, is that there isn't as much 'flame wars' as there were years ago in the demo scene. <Elwix/Style> I wonder sometime if c64 made it to a stable plateau. most people who own one and use it today, are diehards, and will Probably keep with the c64 for a long time now. <jbee> I like the fact that there are less swearing and credit card numbers in them. <Elwix/Style> Eddie - yes, the people making demos are quite a lot more mature these days I guess. The mdian age is up I'm sure. <Eddie> That's for sure. <QT> Elwix, do you have any other computers besides your Commodore(s)? <Elwix/Style> I felt very old when i started at 17. haha I have an Amiga, and I did want to try coding on that machine. but in college I never found the time to learn it's hardware well enough. And there's really no Amiga scene in America at all! <jbee> I have been surprised by the lack of "demos" on other computing platforms. <Elwix/Style> Sure, well, if possible! <Eddie> I'm gonna be up late tonight grabbing demos, that's for sure :) <QT> hehe, Eddie... don't forget to share, Eddie <Elwix/Style> jbee - There's a ton for Amiga. IBM is starting to catch up too. <QT> has anyone ever seen the UNREAL demo on the PC? <Eddie> Most of the demos I have on my IBM are all, umm.THOSE type of demos ;) <Elwix/Style> In fact it's about the only IBM demo I've seen ! <jbee> <- havent had an Amiga since 90 and did check the PC libraries for some. <Eddie> I always share my stuff, QT <QT> :) <Eddie> Haven't seen it. <jbee> always share mine too <Elwix/Style> Can zip files be uploaded here? If I upload a zip can you make it available? <QT> we can re-do it in an arc or something <Elwix/Style> Ok, I'll try and find the time to get some stuff up here tomorrow. <jbee> ES, are you still in school? Just wondering if you were into computer science or whatever. <Elwix/Style> Well, I graduated last year, BS in CS, yep :) haha. <QT> Wow, Congrats! <jbee> I have found many of the "diehards" are actually in the "business" in some respect. <Elwix/Style> Oh and i can always email demos to Eddie to find it's way here :) <Eddie> that's right :) <QT> Great, we'd love that! <Elwix/Style> in the business? <jbee> professional programmers ^ <Elwix/Style> Ah. well, programming is programming, whether c64 or another more job-likely system ;) (c64 is one of the funnest tho) <jbee> I meant making a living at it. Would be great to make a living making demos though :-D <Elwix/Style> For certain! :) But it might have forced me to drop out of college. haha! <jbee> Though people have said not having a good C compiler has "hurt" the Commodore I think it is possible it did the opposite because people learned how to code in MLfirst. <Elwix/Style> Well, thanks Eddie for setting this up.