ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.9812

Internet Message Format | 1998-12-31 | 532KB

From: Anders Fransson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 11:11:32 +0100

During the complete 80=B4s and in the first few years of the 90=B4s, unti=
l
1993-94, Zorn was the creator of several innovative works. You had every
reason for calling him a renewer. If the basis of Zorn is the jazz
- there can be some objections to that - few people has made such a
succesful mixture of genres as he has. I can recall just a few names,
Miles, Sun Ra and Duke Ellington, and they didn=B4t do it to the same
degree as
John Zorn. Or rather, Zorn takes an active part in a number of musical
styles. To be succesful in creating chamber music and trashmetal of the
utmost quality in the same time is really not grated to everyone.

But now for some years, his music seems to be just reiterations of his
earlier works. If you think of the fact that the creative period of Zorn
has lasted for fifteen years, you must consider that this is longer than
most of the so called renewers. It is typical of the renewers to
introduce a new idea and then repeat it over and over again for the rest
of their lives. What once was avant-garde finally becomes nothing but a
tiring grimace.
The artist is assimilated in the establishiment and wins prices... Is
this what is going to happen to Zorn?

It=B4s interesting to follow the letters to the Zorn-list. I joined the
list about two years ago. In those days more then half of the letters
concerned John Zorn. Today has, at the most, a third of the letters
anything to do with Zorn. Some news on the list are those comments on
what Zorn was dressed like, his hair style etc., in his concerts. Has a
serious debate ended up with idol worship?

I certainly still keep up to date with what Zorn is doing, but it was a
long time ago since I bought one of his records. The reason for that is
to some extent the increased speed of the production. The quality is
certainly still high, but it is reiterations!!! And isn=B4t Masada an
increadebly overestimated group?


Anders


--
_________________________________________________________________________=
___

Anders Fransson, Biblioteket, Hogskolan i Orebro,
701 82  Orebro, Sweden.
e-mail: [e-mail]
Phone [phone]
Fax [phone]
_________________________________________________________________________=
___




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From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musique concrete (was braxton)
Date: 01 Dec 1998 06:24:41 -0500

At 12:26 AM 11/30/98 -0600, andrew johnny shay. wrote:
>
>Lastly, how about some good musique concrete outings?

The Wire had a primer on concrete a few issues ago which covered the early
years fairly well.  For more recent stuff it's hard to go wrong with
anything on the Empreintes Digitales label out of Montreal
(www.cam.org/~dim), especially artists like Robert Normandeau, Christian
Calon, or Paul Dolden.  If you can still track down the third in the
Asphodel Drone set (3 CDs, Storm of Drones, I think), this contains one
disc of various ED artists (and it's a great set overall).  Iancu
Dumitrescu is another name to check out, and there's a good e-zine at
www.furious.com/perfect which has a recent article about him.  Another good
compilation set is the periodic Cultures Electroniques sets out of Bourges
(France), which has a contest (every year?) and releases the best in
various categories, typically on 2-CD sets.  The most recent edition was
the 10th.

This topic comes up periodically; check the archives around last spring for
more recommendations.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

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From: "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Companion Trio
Date: 01 Dec 1998 12:41:18 +0200

Could anyone give any info about this group? I've just got their Cd on
Mass Particles and I think it's great. They are Evan Rapport (reeds),
Jerry Lim (guitars) and Bob Wagner (drums). Philly improv scene, I
think.

Thanks a lot

Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs



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From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 05:35:11 -0800 (PST)






---Anders Fransson <[e-mail]> wrote:
> And isn't Masada an
> increadebly overestimated group?
I don't think I'd say "incredibly overestimated," if for no other
reason than just the sheer talent of the players involved, but no,
they're not nearly as cutting-edge as say Naked City or PainKiller --
and I don't know that they're necessarily meant to be.

==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



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From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 01:04:28 +1100

> I certainly still keep up to date with what Zorn is doing, but it was a
> long time ago since I bought one of his records. The reason for that is
> to some extent the increased speed of the production. The quality is
> certainly still high, but it is reiterations!!! And isn=B4t Masada an
> increadebly overestimated group?

Keep in mind that a lot of the stuff Zorn has been releasing lately IS fr=
om
the past (Painkiller box set, The Bribe, etc.)
And I don't understand, are you saying he has to be innovative with every
single thing he does? Can't you enjoy it simply for what it sounds like?=20
I don't really agree with your Masada comment either, their recordings an=
d
live shows are full of great playing and soloing all round, I think it
would be an insult to all involved to say they are overestimated.


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From: "Jason J. Tar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: lamp shea.
Date: 01 Dec 1998 10:32:01 -0500

>Anyway, for all those who
>hesitate to buy another Shea ablum, here is my suggestion:  Shock Corridor,
>Prisoner, Classical Works, and I are all great, but the essential albums
>are Hsi-Yu Chi, Tower of Mirrors, Satyricon, The Poem De Nuestra Signora,
>and his collaboration with DJ Grazhoppa, Down River Up Stream.

Hello,
I have Down River Up Stream and the Mort Aux Vaches cds and quite enjoy
both of those (plus the remix of DJ Vadim that Shea/Grazhoppa did is truly
wonderful).
Was considering getting The Poem De ... next, but I can't find it.  Anyone
know of a US mailorder store that carries it??
Plus how is the recent Fear No Fall, which features David Shea, DJ Low, Jim
O'Rourke, etc??


unrelated::Anyone interested in Ostertag's _Getting A Head_ lp, _Sooner or
Later_ cd, or _Burns Like Fire_ cd?  I'd be willing to trade them for more
David Shea releases or the like....

JJTar.

---
Peace Hugs and Unity            Jason J. Tar
        W.    W.    J.    D?
                  (What would Jason Do?)
      http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
              ICQ@13792120

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From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn's influence on us?!
Date: 01 Dec 1998 17:05:43 +0000

hi all you fellow zornsters.

there's one thing i've wanted to ask all of you quite some time ago.

do any of you on the list feel that john zorn has had an (important ?)
impact on their lives? that maybe even goes beyond enjoying / listening
to his music. when i moved into my new flat i realized that i'd bought
quite a bit of literature on the kristallnacht after i'd bought jz's cd
of the same title. and, even though i'd always liked the mike hammer tv
series, it was jz who got me into spillane's writing. recently,
duras:duchamp (sp?) made me go out and buy duras' "the malady of death".

reflecting on this, it does seem to me that zorn's influenced parts of
my life quite a bit.

looking forward to your answers.

patRice

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 11:39:55 -0500



     Anders opens up some areas which I think are of interest generally,
     though whether or not they apply to JZ is arguable.

     Innovation. Although I imagine most of us would admit to some frisson
     of extra pleasure upon hearing music we consider innovative,
     personally, that aspect is of far less importance than whether or not
     the work is, in a word (substitute your own superlative) beautiful.
     Ideally, of course, one might desire both; this is one reason why a
     given great musician's early, "ground-breaking" works are specially
     prized, because that extra element of excitement of the "new" is
     present. For a crass example, as expertly as Supersax may have
     reconstituted Charlie Parker solos, they necessarily sounded bland
     next to the original, lacking, perhaps among other things, the spark
     of joy Parker was presumably experiencing in the midst of the creation
     of "new" art. On my drive to and from Rochester for Thanksgiving, I
     was playing my Roscoe Mitchell compilation tape. Now, as much as I
     love most of his output, his playing on 'Solo' (from 'Old Quartet) or
     'Thkhe' had a force and inspired beauty that, for me, is not _quite_
     present on later work, even things I think are great, like 'Snurdy
     McGurdy...' or 'The Flow of Things'. In fact, for most great creative
     artists, I think if one could extremely over-simplify and graph their
     output along an age/quality axis it would look something like:

     Q        ****
     U     ***    **  **
     A ***          **  ***   *
     L                     *** **    **
     I                           ****  **
     T                                   ********
     Y

       20       30      40      50      60      70

                AGE

     (Hope this translated to various mail readers)

     Obviously, this is a generalization and abstraction, but I think it
     largely holds true that most innovative work (in almost _all_ fields,
     not just art) is accomplished by folk in their 20's and 30's (spoken
     as a 44-year old painter). It's pretty rare that you find someone in
     their 50's coming up with ideas that "shake the foundations" of the
     area in which they work. It's also rare that, looking back over a
     given artist's career, you find his/her "best" works done late in that
     life. There are, of course, exceptions (I'm thinking of Harry Partch,
     though even there one could argue that the conceptual innovations that
     ultimately led to masterworks like 'Delusion of the Fury'--composed
     when he was over 60--were derived at a much younger age), but I think
     this is a generally accurate representation of the "average" creative
     life.

     Trying valiantly to bring this back around to Zorn, if he does nothing
     else "innovative" (and I might argue that innovation is not negated by
     the tunefulness of, say, the 'Bar Kokhba' projects), he's had a pretty
     good run at things. If Masada's musical innovations are minor, it's
     still one of the most enjoyable, consistently exciting bands out
     there, and that's enough. If Zorn creates a major innovation when he's
     50, I'll be pleasantly surprised; if not, there's likely a 15 year old
     out there somewhere who will fill the gap. If Zorn, on his 60th
     birthday, is releasing 'Masada 244' which I'm unable to distinguish
     from 'Masada 3', well, that's the way it goes. I don't run out to buy
     every new release from Roscoe anymore but, at the same time, I don't
     hold him up to unreasonable expectations. He's done more than enough
     by me.

     Brian Olewnick




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From: [e-mail]
Subject: 12/5/98: Daniel Carter & Saturnalia String Trio in Brooklyn +...
Date: 01 Dec 1998 12:11:43 EST

This Saturday night, Dec. 5th at 9pm,
Come on out to see OR tune in to Free 103.9 FM (Brooklyn's pirate radio)
to hear:

DANIEL CARTER AND THE SATURNALIA STRING TRIO
(Jonathan LaMaster-violin, Vic Rawlings-cello, Mike Bullock-double bass)

with

THE BROOKLYN-BOSTON 3
(Charles Waters-reeds, Jane Wang-double bass, Andrew Barker-drums)

We would LOVE a live studio audience, too!  So come on out for a 9pm show at
97 South 6th Street (between Bedford and Barry), Williamsburg, NY. The
station/loft is upstairs on the 2nd floor.  Hope to see you there!

Jonathan LaMaster
[e-mail]
http://www.sublingual.com

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Frisell/ Youth
Date: 01 Dec 1998 14:33:22 -0300

Hello Zornies!

Last Saturday night, on Sony TV Channel (Buenos Aires) I could see for
my first time ever a Bill Frisell's live performance.
I was absolutely impressed with all musicians on stage: Bill, Jerry
Douglas, dobro; Viktor Krauss, bass; they played  3 or 4 songs from
Nashville CD.Outstanding.
Afterwards, Eyvind Kang (violin), Curtis Folwkes (trombone) and Ron
Miles (trumpet) joined them to play a song from Quartet cd. Amazing.
Finally, with my heart beating at high speed, the camera began shooting
the right side of the stage and there was Robin Holcomb, who joined all
the group to sing the last song she sings in Nashville. Excellent.
Sorry I can't remember the titles.
Then a man on stage said that an experimental group was going to play:
they were Sonic Youth. I listened to their first song, then I turn off
my TV.

It's almost impossible to see any film from Andrei Tarkovsky and then
Rambo.

Anyone know if this Frisell show is on video?

Hugo (from Argentina)

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From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell/ Youth
Date: 01 Dec 1998 13:34:23 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> Then a man on stage said that an experimental group was going to play:
> they were Sonic Youth. I listened to their first song, then I turn off
> my TV.
>
> It's almost impossible to see any film from Andrei Tarkovsky and then
> Rambo.

that's a terrible analogy.

b

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From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Zorn...Dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 13:49:05 -0600 (CST)

Hello Zornies.

Innovation isn't the only reason one listen's to Zorn's work, although
he is certainly my favorite innovator.

Let's hear a cheer for Improv...!  I've got a live boot-leg of Naked
City and it's absolutely facinating to listen to the same songs with the
different improvations.  Depending proportionately on the mood of the
musician at that particular moment in time.   It keeps the music
exciting for the musicians as well as the audience member who has heard
the material many times before.


}Theodorus--



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From: Troy Whitfield <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sessions at W. 54th
Date: 01 Dec 1998 15:38:24 -0500

Hugo wrote:

> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 14:33:22 -0300
> From: [e-mail]
> Subject: Frisell/ Youth
>
> Hello Zornies!
>
> Last Saturday night, on Sony TV Channel (Buenos Aires) I could see for
> my first time ever a Bill Frisell's live performance.

[snip]

> Anyone know if this Frisell show is on video?

It sounds like you're describing his appearance on Sessions at West
54th.  Sessions is an excellent weekly show on PBS.  The Frisell/SY
episode was originally broadcast on Aug. 6, 1997, one week before a
Richard Thompson/Suzanne Vega program.  The web site is:
http://www.sessionsatwest54th.com/.

I don't know if tapes are available.

Troy

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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: ben goldberg quartet in Portland!
Date: 01 Dec 1998 12:38:20 -0800

hey all, sorry for the lack of zorn content...
just wondering if anyone can give me the lowdown on ben
goldbergs quartet?  all i know is that it is NOT Junk Genius
but Trevor Dunn is playing bass.  couldnt get any info on
drummer or keys.  let me know.....  i suppose it really does
not matter (im going to go anyway)......just looking for a
little preview.  for any portlanders out there.  the show is
at 7:00 tonight (12-1) at some church on the park blocks.
$10 at the door i think.
patrick in portland


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From: [e-mail] (Theo Klaase)
Subject: JERRY CANTRELL'S BOGGY DEPOT ALBUM SUCKS...!
Date: 01 Dec 1998 15:36:29 -0600 (CST)

DON'T WASTE YOUR $$$$


}Theodorus--



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From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sessions at W. 54th
Date: 01 Dec 1998 14:12:12 PST

My little bro told me that Tim Berne was hosting this season.  Is this
true?  I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

>Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:38:24 -0500
>From: Troy Whitfield <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Sessions at W. 54th
>
>Hugo wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 98 14:33:22 -0300
>> From: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Frisell/ Youth
>>
>> Hello Zornies!
>>
>> Last Saturday night, on Sony TV Channel (Buenos Aires) I could see
for
>> my first time ever a Bill Frisell's live performance.
>
>[snip]
>
>> Anyone know if this Frisell show is on video?
>
>It sounds like you're describing his appearance on Sessions at West
>54th.  Sessions is an excellent weekly show on PBS.  The Frisell/SY
>episode was originally broadcast on Aug. 6, 1997, one week before a
>Richard Thompson/Suzanne Vega program.  The web site is:
>http://www.sessionsatwest54th.com/.
>
>I don't know if tapes are available.
>
>Troy
>
>-
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 14:14:48 -0800 (PST)






[e-mail] wrote:
>      Trying valiantly to bring this back around to Zorn, if he does
nothing
>      else "innovative" (and I might argue that innovation is not
negated by
>      the tunefulness of, say, the 'Bar Kokhba' projects), he's had a
pretty
>      good run at things. If Masada's musical innovations are minor,
it's
>      still one of the most enjoyable, consistently exciting bands out
>      there, and that's enough.
Also, you have to remember that the whole Masada project is about more
than just the music -- there's a definite political agenda to it too
-- whereas Naked City, for example, was more about existential issues,
for the want of a less inadequate term -- and even the one even
vaguely "political" (in a broad sense of the term) Naked City record,
Radio (if I'm interpreting the bondage photo in the cover right), was
still basically music-related, while Masada is about things like
martyrdom and genocide and cultural memory, and if Zorn wants to
actually get his message across, he can't push himself so far that the
only people who'll enjoy it are the ones who are already Zorn fans
(assuming he could push himself any further w/out collapsing into
self-parody). I'm not saying he's "sold out" or anything like that;
it's more like he's focusing his energy outward now -- listening to
most of Zorn's records, I get the feeling that he personally couldn't
give half a fuck whether I like it or not (I mean I'm sure he's glad
that I do -- or at least that somebody does), but w/ Masada, if people
don't listen to it, there's really no point in its existing at all.
Does that make sense? And at least he's trying to do something
worthwhile, rather than just sitting there jerking off trying to
recapture past glories. And finally, let me add that I'm not trying to
disparage the music side of Masada in any way, because IMHO it's some
of the best music out there right now.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



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From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sessions at W. 54th
Date: 01 Dec 1998 16:17:55 -0600 (CST)

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Scott Handley wrote:

> My little bro told me that Tim Berne was hosting this season.  Is this
> true?  I haven't had a chance to check it out yet.

Close (phonetically): It's David Byrne.

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


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From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: session at west54th: oops
Date: 01 Dec 1998 14:18:32 PST

It was David Byren, not Tim Berne.  I am a silly, lazy boy.  I went to
the web site and there he was in a Brooks and Dunn flame-job outfit.
Forgive the lazy ass e.mail.

--s

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 14:19:03 -0800


    Who is Harriet Tubman? I would not have bothered to ask with only the
KF record, but now there is a Christian Wolff record on Mode called I LIKE TO
THINK OF HARRIET TUBMAN.

    Any idea how is this person?

    Thanks,

    Patrice (who feels that he should know the answer).


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Celluloid
Date: 01 Dec 1998 17:32:17 EST

Anyone out there know who now owns the rights to the Celluloid catalog. I'm
not interested in the Laswell stuff, but the Dance/Hip-Hop catalog. My
understanding is that Jean Karakos sold it a few years back. Any help would be
much appreciated.

Steve

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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 18:03:26 -0500 (EST)


According to my Webster's dictionary, Harriet Tubman ca 1820 -1913,
American abolitionist. If I recall correctly, she was a black woman born
into slavery, who helped lead the fight against slavery and later top
get more rights for blacks.

But I'm a Canadian. What do you Americans know about your history?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
>     Who is Harriet Tubman? I would not have bothered to ask with only the
> KF record, but now there is a Christian Wolff record on Mode called I LIKE TO
> THINK OF HARRIET TUBMAN.
>
>     Any idea how is this person?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Patrice (who feels that he should know the answer).
>
>
> -
>
>

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From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 15:15:36 -0800

At 06:03 PM 12/1/98 -0500, Ken Waxman wrote:
>
>According to my Webster's dictionary, Harriet Tubman ca 1820 -1913,
>American abolitionist. If I recall correctly, she was a black woman born
>into slavery, who helped lead the fight against slavery and later top
>get more rights for blacks.
>
>But I'm a Canadian. What do you Americans know about your history?

Patrice is a Frenchman.  However, any American on this list who can't
answer the question of who she was should spend a lot more time reading
than listening to music.  She is one of the true heros of American history.

>
>Ken Waxman
>[e-mail]
>
>On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>>
>>     Who is Harriet Tubman? I would not have bothered to ask with only the
>> KF record, but now there is a Christian Wolff record on Mode called I
LIKE TO
>> THINK OF HARRIET TUBMAN.
>>
>>     Any idea how is this person?
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>>     Patrice (who feels that he should know the answer).
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>>
>
>-
>

Jeff Spirer
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
B&W Photos, Words: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

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From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 21:25:05 -0300

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>         Who is Harriet Tubman?

The most famous "conductor" on the Underground Railroad.
"born into slavery...5 feet tall...veteran of countless secret missions
piloting blacks out of slavery...always carrying a pistol, telling
fugitives: 'you'll be free or die.'"
--Zinn's "People's History of the US"

-RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



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From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Garlands
Date: 01 Dec 1998 20:44:32 -0500

Has David Garland, whose 'Control Songs' I just got and enjoyed,
released any other albums under his own name? I think I've only
otherwise heard him with Klucevsek on the 'Polka from the Fringe'
collections, where he contributes fine vocal stylings and the wonderful
'VCR Polka'.

Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release? I came across his
name again in the new Harry Partch biography (required reading, by the
way) and wonder if his work bears any relation to HP's.

Are these two guys related?

Brian Olewnick

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From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 01 Dec 1998 21:12:54 -0500 (EST)

> >        Sax Improvisations-Series F     Inner City      *

We have this A. Braxton LP at the radio station where I work, and I got it
out today and listened to it.  The first time I really have listened to
him, and I think its great. A lot of range, not as brainy as he's made out
to be. That had been scaring me away
>
>      Obviously, this is a generalization and abstraction, but I think it
>      largely holds true that most innovative work (in almost _all_ fields,
>      not just art) is accomplished by folk in their 20's and 30's (spoken
>      as a 44-year old painter). It's pretty rare that you find someone in

Wouldn't Cecil Taylor be another exception to this?  I've only heard
parts from each decade but compared with Ornette for example I think his
later work compares very well with his earlier stuff.   Maybe not as
shockingly innovative but refining what he does.  I like his more recent
stuff more than a lot the 60s stuff, FWIW.
>
> THE BROOKLYN-BOSTON 3
> (Charles Waters-reeds, Jane Wang-double bass, Andrew Barker-drums)

If you get a chance, go see these guys. Waters and Barker are in the Gold
Sparkle Band from Atlanta. Waters is also on the recent Eugene Chadbourne
CD Insect Attracter, which is great.  Very spare and open, reminds of the
Art Ensemble of Chi's quiet stuff, only with banjos.

Has anyone heard Chadbourne's CDs on Intakt? I think there are 4 already.
Thanks if you can comment on these,

WY


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From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 21:26:13 -0500

At 11:39 AM 12/1/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>     Obviously, this is a generalization and abstraction, but I think it
>     largely holds true that most innovative work (in almost _all_ fields,
>     not just art) is accomplished by folk in their 20's and 30's (spoken
>     as a 44-year old painter). It's pretty rare that you find someone in
>     their 50's coming up with ideas that "shake the foundations" of the
>     area in which they work. It's also rare that, looking back over a
>     given artist's career, you find his/her "best" works done late in that
>     life. There are, of course, exceptions (I'm thinking of Harry Partch,
>     though even there one could argue that the conceptual innovations that
>     ultimately led to masterworks like 'Delusion of the Fury'--composed
>     when he was over 60--were derived at a much younger age), but I think
>     this is a generally accurate representation of the "average" creative
>     life.

I really have to differ with the age vs. quality graph (dunno, perhaps my
mail reader skewed the low numbers at the end of the age bracket...).
While I agree that innovation is found almost always found early in an
artistic career, the later works often bring a sense of transcendance which
takes a lifetime to acquire.  I admit I'm thinking more of classical music
than pop, but we really haven't had pop music that long, and unfortunately
pop musicians get involved in life shortening distractions like drugs, fast
living, etc., in addition to the financial rewards of rehashing the works
which made them famous (look at all the middle-aged rockers doing revival
tours).

In classical music, I'm thinking of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert,
Wagner, Carter, even Cage (whose late works I'm only beginning to
appreciate), in addition to many famous conductors and performers who are
well advanced in years.  But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.


--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 01 Dec 1998 21:39:07 -0500

William York wrote:

> Wouldn't Cecil Taylor be another exception to this?  I've only heard
> parts from each decade but compared with Ornette for example I think his
> later work compares very well with his earlier stuff.   Maybe not as
> shockingly innovative but refining what he does.  I like his more recent
> stuff more than a lot the 60s stuff, FWIW.

Cecil is at least _somewhat_ of an exception, in that the general
quality of his work remains consistently high, but (and of course, this
is just my opinion) his work from '66-'73, from say, 'Unit Structures'
to 'Silent Tongues', when he was about 30-38, stands a notch above even
the best of his later work. But, aside from a bit of mellowing (the same
might be said of Derek Bailey, who's another trend-bucker), has the
essential content of Taylor's work changed much since @1970? I don't
think so. I don't mean this, at all, as a criticism, it's just that the
'innovation' aspect which, again, I don't consider to be of prime
importance, is no longer very present. The astonished reaction that one
might have had upon first hearing 'Unit Structures' in 1966 isn't
likely, it seems to me, to be repeated with regards to Taylor. Which, I
stress again, is fine.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Garlands
Date: 30 Nov 1998 21:48:04 -0500

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release? I came across his
> name again in the new Harry Partch biography (required reading, by the
> way) and wonder if his work bears any relation to HP's.

Not in the least. Peter Garland is one of my good friend's uncles actually
so I know quite a lot about him. However, I haven't heard the Avant disc
but I was just given a copy of the one on New Albion called 'Walk Into
Beauty' which has two solo piano pieces performed by Aki Takahashi and
another piece performed by the Abel/Steinberg/Winant Trio. His music is
very influenced by Native American music and demonstrates a simplified
structure. Much of his music since the 70's could be called "a return to
radical consonance". Almost new-agey if that doesn't scare you off... sort
of like Cage's early piano works like "In A Landscape" (but of course very
different... you know what I mean) .You can find a very informative
biography and discography at the New Albion website
(http://www.newalbion.com/artists/garlandp/).

Another cool thing about him my friend told me... While Peter was attending
school (Exeter I believe) there was a dress code which required all the
young men to wear ties. Since it didn't exactly specify what a tie *was*,
Peter went through high school wearing a cow bell.

I'm pretty sure there is no relation with the other guy you mentioned or I
would have heard about it. I'll ask and be sure to let you know if it is
otherwise.

                                        -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 22:04:18 -0500

Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> I really have to differ with the age vs. quality graph (dunno, perhaps my
> mail reader skewed the low numbers at the end of the age bracket...).
> While I agree that innovation is found almost always found early in an
> artistic career, the later works often bring a sense of transcendance which
> takes a lifetime to acquire.

You might be right and, as I was writing that, I was thinking of some
writers to whom it doesn't seem to apply for just that reason, but I
still see it as a useful, if depressing, rule of thumb.

> I admit I'm thinking more of classical music
> than pop, but we really haven't had pop music that long, and unfortunately
> pop musicians get involved in life shortening distractions like drugs, fast
> living, etc., in addition to the financial rewards of rehashing the works
> which made them famous (look at all the middle-aged rockers doing revival
> tours).

Um....unfortunately?  ;-)

> In classical music, I'm thinking of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert,
> Wagner, Carter, even Cage (whose late works I'm only beginning to
> appreciate), in addition to many famous conductors and performers who are
> well advanced in years.  But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.

Hey, Zorn's 45; Coltrane was 41 when he died. I'd agree that his '64-'67
period was both extremely innovative and beautiful. I always wondered
whether, had he lived, he would've gone on to greater things or (heresy
warning) whether he would've kind of followed the path Tyner (or Wayne
Shorter!) has taken since the mid '70's, which, IMHO, is not too
awe-inspiring. You never know.

By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 01 Dec 1998 22:55:21 -0500

At 10:04 PM 12/1/98 -0500, Brian Olewnick wrote:
>
>By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
>wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?
>

Well, yes, but my point was that the music he wrote at the end of his life,
after his belated discovery of Bach (e.g., the Requiem and last
symphonies), was transcendant compared even to music of his mature years.
With Mozart, the time scale was just shortened a little.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gabriel Lichtmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn In Argentina?
Date: 21 Nov 1998 08:28:40 -0300

Can someone on the list confirm if Mr. Z. is playing in Buenos Aire this
month, and if so, where can I buy the tickets?
ThanX

                                        Gabriel Lichtmann

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Risser Family <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn Publishing
Date: 01 Dec 1998 22:45:06 -0500

Okay, we were in the midst of a discussion about publishing stuffs on Zorn albums, when suddenly Caleb threw this curveball:

> Theoretically, you might want scores of the underlying
> works, but that is quite rare these days (and the scores are usually
> easy to find - there's even a Zorn catalogue now!).

Where is there a Zorn catalog?  I've been trying for a long time to find scores to... countless things by him.
Could someone please enlighten?

Peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 01 Dec 1998 23:39:02 EST


In a message dated 12/1/98 9:48:33 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<William York wrote:

> Wouldn't Cecil Taylor be another exception to this?  I've only heard
> parts from each decade but compared with Ornette for example I think his
> later work compares very well with his earlier stuff.   Maybe not as
> shockingly innovative but refining what he does.  I like his more recent
> stuff more than a lot the 60s stuff, FWIW.

Cecil is at least _somewhat_ of an exception, in that the general
quality of his work remains consistently high, but (and of course, this
is just my opinion) his work from '66-'73, from say, 'Unit Structures'
to 'Silent Tongues', when he was about 30-38, stands a notch above even
the best of his later work. But, aside from a bit of mellowing (the same
might be said of Derek Bailey, who's another trend-bucker), has the
essential content of Taylor's work changed much since @1970? I don't
think so. I don't mean this, at all, as a criticism, it's just that the
'innovation' aspect which, again, I don't consider to be of prime
importance, is no longer very present. The astonished reaction that one
might have had upon first hearing 'Unit Structures' in 1966 isn't
likely, it seems to me, to be repeated with regards to Taylor. Which, I
stress again, is fine.>>

I like some of Cecil's more recent stuff (Olu Iwa, Always A Pleasure) as much
as anything he's ever done. two examples of artists who have moved in new,
interesting directions in their fifties are Morton Feldman whose later, longer
works are much more powerful than his earlier work to my ears, and Evan
Parker, who just over the last few years has begun to work with electronics in
various contexts, which, with the exception of Process and Reality, he had
never done before on record. what Parker is trying to do with his
electroacoustic ensemble is as innovative as his solo records were in the
early seventies, again, in my opinion.

of course there is some truth to Brian's theory. I just never thought of it as
an age factor, just that people get burnt out or run out of ideas. I just
think that every artist is different. Tom Waits made what I think is his best
record, _Bone Machine_, 25 years into his career, and hasn't put out a real
followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain Beefheart was
making some of his most interesting music when he quit music for painting in
the early eighties. Charlie Rich made easily his best record, _Pictures and
Paintings_, 35 or 40 years into his career, because he finally found a
producer who understood what he was trying to do and let him do it.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Silent Watcher" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Celluloid
Date: 01 Dec 1998 21:33:11 PST

i assume john matarazzo owns the whole thing.

peace,
dave
Bill Laswell, Eraldo Bernocchi and Lori Carson Discographies at :
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
Mick Harris Discography coming soon...


>Anyone out there know who now owns the rights to the Celluloid
>catalog. I'm not interested in the Laswell stuff, but the
>Dance/Hip-Hop catalog. My understanding is that Jean Karakos sold it >a
few years back a

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 00:43:58 -0500



"Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
> But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.

Actually, Zorn is now older than Coltrane got to be...

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Garlands
Date: 02 Dec 1998 00:47:15 -0500

Brian Olewnick wrote:

> Has David Garland, whose 'Control Songs' I just got and enjoyed,
> released any other albums under his own name?

Yes, an exceedingly rare but oddly delightful album of Brian Wilson songs
called "I Guess I Just Wasn't Made for These Times," released only in
Japan.  It used to be available from WFMU's catalog but I think they ran
out a while back.  Also, he had a cooperative trio with Ikue Mori and
Cinnie Cole called The Worlds of Love (which was actually the core of the
band on the Brian Wilson disc) that recorded one album released in 1989 on
the Review label, not available on CD to the best of my knowledge.

[ZORN CONTENT]  This won't mean anything to non-New Yorkers, but Garland's
WNYC show "Spinning on Air" is also very special.  It's only on Friday
nights now, but I remember shortly after I moved here, it was on every
night, and when Zorn celebrated his 40th birthday by playing every single
night during September 1993 at the (old) Knitting Factory, David broadcast
almost all of those shows.

> Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release? I came across his
> name again in the new Harry Partch biography (required reading, by the
> way) and wonder if his work bears any relation to HP's.

To my ear, no.  Tom Pratt's summary was very good.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Garlands
Date: 01 Dec 1998 23:13:53 EST


In a message dated 12/1/98 10:32:43 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Not in the least. Peter Garland is one of my good friend's uncles actually
so I know quite a lot about him. However, I haven't heard the Avant disc
but I was just given a copy of the one on New Albion called 'Walk Into
Beauty' which has two solo piano pieces performed by Aki Takahashi and
another piece performed by the Abel/Steinberg/Winant Trio. His music is
very influenced by Native American music and demonstrates a simplified
structure. Much of his music since the 70's could be called "a return to
radical consonance". Almost new-agey if that doesn't scare you off... sort
of like Cage's early piano works like "In A Landscape" (but of course very
different... you know what I mean) .You can find a very informative
biography and discography at the New Albion website
(http://www.newalbion.com/artists/garlandp/).>>

I have both the New Albion record and the Avant one, and I would agree with
Tom's description of his music. but the Avant record (which is less than a
half hour long) contains the 20 minute tour de force six-part Nana + Victorio.
It's a solo percussion piece for William Winant and easily the best thing on
either of the two discs.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: age: innovation
Date: 01 Dec 1998 23:30:34 -0800

When I saw the comment relating age to innovation, I immediately thought of
Matise, who said something along the lines of "Thank god I lived past the
age of 50, or nobody would've remembered me". Drawing and painting his
entire life, he spent most of the early part of his career making clumsy,
awkward work. This is actually a pretty common scenario.

Another artist who has found innovation growing along with his age is Tom
Waits.

Todd

NP: Udi Yorgo Bacanos "s/t" (Turkish ud player)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: age: innovation
Date: 02 Dec 1998 08:07:31 -0300

Todd Bramy wrote:
>
> When I saw the comment relating age to innovation, I immediately thought of
> Matise, who said something along the lines of "Thank god I lived past the
> age of 50, or nobody would've remembered me".
> Another artist who has found innovation growing along with his age is Tom
> Waits.

And Sam Beckett wrote "...Godot" and became famous after 50. Innovated
for decades after 50.

R
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn in Argentina?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 10:49:34 -0300

Gabriel Lichtmann wrote:

>Can someone on the list confirm if Mr. Z. is playing in Buenos Aires

Mr. Z. and Masada won't play in Argentina.
I read in a local newspaper that Zorn's reason for not coming to our
country was the distance (???).
I don't know any official information from Experimenta's organization on
this subject.
Off the record, Dave Douglas was very sorry about this, but he said it
wasn't his group, but Zorn's.

Hugo (still very dissapointed)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Peter Garland's "Nana + Victorio"
Date: 02 Dec 1998 09:10:31 -0500

>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Can anyone comment on Peter Garland's Avant release?

I picked up Peter Garland's "Nana + Victorio" on Avant
when it came out in 1992.  It has six tracks for solo
percussionist (William Winant) and one track for
vibraphone and piano  (Winant and Julie Steinberg).
It's a pretty fine release and I have given the
vibraphone/piano track repeated listenings over the years.
You asked if it bore any resemblance to Harry Partch
and, to my ears, it does not.  However, it does bear
strong similitaries to "Music for a Summer Evening
(Makrokosmos III)" (for 2 pianos and 2 percussionists)
by George Crumb (1974).  I like the Crumb piece more
but both are good.

Like many of the early Avant composer-series releases,
(Hyla, Oswald, Shea...), the Garland cd is short,
clocking in at about 25 minutes.

David K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Marc Downing <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 09:17:21 -0500

>At 11:39 AM 12/1/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>>
>>     Obviously, this is a generalization and abstraction, but I think it
>>     largely holds true that most innovative work (in almost _all_ fields,
>>     not just art) is accomplished by folk in their 20's and 30's (spoken
>>     as a 44-year old painter). It's pretty rare that you find someone in
>>     their 50's coming up with ideas that "shake the foundations" of the
>>     area in which they work

>I really have to differ with the age vs. quality graph
>I admit I'm thinking more of classical music

And literature, and architecture, and politics, and philosophy. I find a
kind of heroism in the continued creative output of someone who's fifty or
sixty years old precisely because of the intrinsic appeal that the work of
young people has for our culture.  We tend to allow our young to eat our
old, which is perverse.  I too am looking foreward to Zorn's next sixty or
seventy records (which should take him well into his late 40's).

Marc



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 10:42:20 -0500 (EST)

> - -- whereas Naked City, for example, was more about existential issues,
> for the want of a less inadequate term -- and even the one even
> vaguely "political" (in a broad sense of the term) Naked City record,
> Radio (if I'm interpreting the bondage photo in the cover right), was
> still basically music-related, while Masada is about things like
> martyrdom and genocide and cultural memory, and if Zorn wants to [cut]

Could you explain more about this interpretation of the Radio cover b/c I
asked about this a week or so ago and I still don't see much of a
connection with the music.

Also, if anyone could tell me something about the Ganelin Trio (Russian
jazz group) that would be helpful - like about their recordings.  i've
read about them and while their is no downtown connection it seems like
they might bear some resemblence to other people talked about here.  The
Penguin guide is more confusing than anything else to say, so I'm fuzzy as
to what Kind of resemblence, but it seems interesting.  Reply off the
list if you want,

tHanks, WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Age/Innovation
Date: 02 Dec 1998 10:28:08 -0500



     Let me use Jon's note to clarify some things (Hey, even if my idea has
     a few holes, at least it's generated some, IMHO, interesting
     discussion).

>I like some of Cecil's more recent stuff (Olu Iwa, Always A Pleasure) as much
>as anything he's ever done.

When I refer to "innovation", I'm being pretty strict and exclusive in my
definition. I'm talking about some quality that, at least, causes one to
exclaim, "Whoa! What the hell is that?", if not actually hurt one's neck
whipping around towards the speaker. Our man Zorn's achieved this at least
twice (sticking to recorded examples) with 'The Big Gundown' and 'Naked City'
and perhaps, more subtly, with projects spun out of Masada. Cecil might have
made his marks with 'Unit Structures' and, say, 'Indent'. I like 'Olu Iwa' a
great deal also (haven't heard the other yet), but I don't hear anything
_substantively_ different from his earlier work.

> two examples of artists who have moved in new, interesting directions in
>their fifties are Morton Feldman whose later, longer works are much more
>powerful than his earlier work to my ears,

I'm no Feldman expert, but it seems that the breakthrough in his work came
sometime in the late '60's--early '70's, the move to what I think of as a
"complex stasis", surely an innovation. I'm guessing (don't have his bio
around) that he was in his mid to late 30's at the time. He expanded on this
innovation very beautifully in later years.

>and Evan Parker, who just over the last few years has begun to work with
>electronics in various contexts, which, with the exception of Process and
>Reality, he had never done before on record. what Parker is trying to do with
>his electroacoustic ensemble is as innovative as his solo records were in the
>early seventies, again, in my opinion.

To me (and again, I don't mean this perjoratively), Parker's electro-acoustic
works seems to be his elaborations on the really innovative work done by
Richard Teitelbaum (and, I suppose, others) with interactive computer systems.
I might be being overly picky, but I'm not sure I'd credit Parker with the
real innovation in this case.

>of course there is some truth to Brian's theory. I just never thought of it
>as an age factor, just that people get burnt out or run out of ideas.

Sure, that's another way of putting it. Most great artists have "only" one,
maybe two, new, wonderful ideas. Which, I think I have to repeat, is _fine_;
we should be very happy with that!

>I just think that every artist is different. Tom Waits made what I think is
>his best record, _Bone Machine_, 25 years into his career, and hasn't put out
>a real followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain
>Beefheart was making some of his most interesting music when he quit music
>for painting in the early eighties.

I think Van Vliet's output from 'Shiny Beast' on might appear better only
after those awful mid 70's releases; ie, his creative path took a sharper than
normal drop midway through. But, IMHO, his last work doesn't really approach,
on either the innovation or quality scale, TMR and LMDOB.

In rock, Zappa is a near archetypal example of my theory. Other musicians of
talent like Van Vliet, Fripp, Eno also seem to fit the bill pretty well. In
fact, Gil Evans and jazz influence talk aside, given the collection of songs
on 'First Rays...', I'm not so sure Hendrix wouldn't have ended up
regurgitating variations on 'Crosstown Traffic' for the rest of his career.

>Charlie Rich made easily his best record, _Pictures and Paintings_, 35 or 40
>years into his career, because he finally found a producer who understood
>what he was trying to do and let him do it.

     I don't know Rich's work at all, but it kinda sounds like this work
     was brewing for a long while before he got the chance to record it.
     Often, a given artist will achieve public recognition for innovative
     work late in his/her life (someone cited Beckett), but if you look at
     the actual work, you generally find that the seeds had been sown far
     earlier.

     I just saw Marc Downing's note. Along with Caleb's critique, I
     should've explained that my (overly simplistic) graph was meant to
     describe a "great" artist, so that the relatively low range late in
     life might still be both intrinsically beautiful and far "superior"
     to, say, what Billy Joel is going to be producing at that age. In
     fact, though I suppose Mr. Joel's career might well follow a similar
     arc, I don't have a small enough typeface to accurately portray its
     level! And, as Marc points out, age does, happily, bring along
     seasoning which might ultimately have as much, or more, value as
     innovation. I too, expect fine things form Zorn in the future; I just
     don't expect to hurt my neck.

     OK, I'll shut up now.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 12:13:28 -0500

William York wrote:

> Also, if anyone could tell me something about the Ganelin Trio (Russian
> jazz group) that would be helpful - like about their recordings.  i've
> read about them and while their is no downtown connection it seems like
> they might bear some resemblence to other people talked about here.  The
> Penguin guide is more confusing than anything else to say, so I'm fuzzy as
> to what Kind of resemblence, but it seems interesting.  Reply off the
> list if you want,


    I'll leave it to someone else with a better knowledge to describe their
recordings, but I cant let the oppotunity pass to recall the time that
The Ganelin Trio played on  NBC's Today show. All morning they hyped the
appearance of this "Soviet" jazz band(I'm sure they were reading right
from their press kit). When it came time for their segment they launched
into 5 minutes of Free improv that was supposed to be their take on
"Mack The Knife". After they were done, Both Jane Pauley and Bryant
Gumbel were rendered all but speechless.  A true golden moment in
american broadcasting.

RW

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:10:01 -0500 (EST)

I second the idea that CT's 1990s work is just as good as his work in
preceding decades, if not better. Great art can be created at any age. I
just saw 69-year-old tenor saxophonist give a show in Toronto this weekend
and his idea fund and talent is as impressive it has been any time I've
seen him in Chicago in the past five years and as notable as that
created by any 20 year old or 40 year old.

Some musicians (and artists) reach an early peak and burn out cf Rimbaud and
most rockers. Others crate masterpieces in old age cf Picasso, Skip
James, Louis Armstrong.

Let's appreciate good music no matter the age (race, gender,
height, sexual interests or table manners) of the artist involved.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull/age
Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:14:56 -0500 (EST)

Reality check:

John Zorn is now older than John Coltrane was when he died.

But that doesn't negate my statement in another post about ageism and
appreciation.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

>
> In classical music, I'm thinking of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert,
> Wagner, Carter, even Cage (whose late works I'm only beginning to
> appreciate), in addition to many famous conductors and performers who are
> well advanced in years.  But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.
>
>
> --
> Caleb Deupree
> [e-mail]
>
> Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
> -- Pablo Picasso
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
Date: 02 Dec 1998 10:18:24 -0800


On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:01 -0500 (EST)  Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> I second the idea that CT's 1990s work is just as good as his work in
> preceding decades, if not better. Great art can be created at any age. I
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think that we are drifting away from what Brian was saying...

Brian was not talking about the capability of polishing or improving, but
about creating breakthroughs. For example, Taylor/Parker/Bailey/etc were
cutting edge 30 years ago. They might still have problems to pay the bills,
but this has nothing to do with being creative in the sense of producing
new directions (what they did in the '60s without the slightest doubt). And
yes, I love to listen to them, but not for the same reasons that I did 20
years ago. If I want breakthroughs, I looks somewhere else.

Yes, good music can be done at any age. Did anybody claimed the opposite?

    Patrice (who agrees 100% with Brian's comments on age and
        creativity).



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:22:44 -0500


     Ken wrote:

>Let's appreciate good music no matter the age (race, gender,
>height, sexual interests or table manners) of the artist
>involved.

     I'll go along with everything except table manners; gotta draw the
     line somewhere.

     Actually, I have fantasized a jazz band where every member was at
     least 6'4". Randy Weston, Julius Hemphill, Han Bennink...

     B.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 11:21:47 -0800

    I think that the phenomenon that you're describing is one to which pop
musicians are more vulnerable. While it may still happen to artists that
work outside the norm, pop musicians work very much within in their time.
These days pop music targets an audience that is significantly younger th=
an
the musicians themselves. My point is that when people are writing with a
voice that is their own rather than with one that is more representative =
of
Zeitgeist than of creative vision, what happens to them is less a creativ=
e
downturn than it is an inablity to keep up with the trend. Their attempt =
is
to mimic the voice of the time, unlike artists like Zorn who create voice=
s.


----------
> From: Anders Fransson <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Has John Zorn became dull?
> Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 2:11 AM
>=20
> During the complete 80=B4s and in the first few years of the 90=B4s, un=
til
> 1993-94, Zorn was the creator of several innovative works. You had ever=
y
> reason for calling him a renewer. If the basis of Zorn is the jazz
> - there can be some objections to that - few people has made such a
> succesful mixture of genres as he has. I can recall just a few names,
> Miles, Sun Ra and Duke Ellington, and they didn=B4t do it to the same
> degree as
> John Zorn. Or rather, Zorn takes an active part in a number of musical
> styles. To be succesful in creating chamber music and trashmetal of the
> utmost quality in the same time is really not grated to everyone.
>=20
> But now for some years, his music seems to be just reiterations of his
> earlier works. If you think of the fact that the creative period of Zor=
n
> has lasted for fifteen years, you must consider that this is longer tha=
n
> most of the so called renewers. It is typical of the renewers to
> introduce a new idea and then repeat it over and over again for the res=
t
> of their lives. What once was avant-garde finally becomes nothing but a
> tiring grimace.
> The artist is assimilated in the establishiment and wins prices... Is
> this what is going to happen to Zorn?
>=20
> It=B4s interesting to follow the letters to the Zorn-list. I joined the
> list about two years ago. In those days more then half of the letters
> concerned John Zorn. Today has, at the most, a third of the letters
> anything to do with Zorn. Some news on the list are those comments on
> what Zorn was dressed like, his hair style etc., in his concerts. Has a
> serious debate ended up with idol worship?
>=20
> I certainly still keep up to date with what Zorn is doing, but it was a
> long time ago since I bought one of his records. The reason for that is
> to some extent the increased speed of the production. The quality is
> certainly still high, but it is reiterations!!! And isn=B4t Masada an
> increadebly overestimated group?
>=20
>=20
> Anders
>=20
>=20
> --
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___


>=20
> Anders Fransson, Biblioteket, Hogskolan i Orebro,
> 701 82  Orebro, Sweden.
> e-mail: [e-mail]
> Phone [phone]
> Fax [phone]
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (landon thorpe)
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 02 Dec 1998 14:37:09 -0600


>followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain Beefheart was
>making some of his most interesting music when he quit music for painting in
>the early eighties.

Speaking of Beefheart, can anyone recommend the next best thing to listen
to after Trout Mask Replica? Also, I believe that Steve Smith mentioned a
few months ago that Revenant was thinking about releasing the "original"
version of TMR, entitled simply Trout Mask. Is this out yet? Has any other
CB material been released by Revenant?

Thanks,

Landon Thorpe



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 02 Dec 1998 14:43:08 EST


In a message dated 12/2/98 2:34:29 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Speaking of Beefheart, can anyone recommend the next best thing to listen
to after Trout Mask Replica? Also, I believe that Steve Smith mentioned a
few months ago that Revenant was thinking about releasing the "original"
version of TMR, entitled simply Trout Mask. Is this out yet? Has any other
CB material been released by Revenant?
>>

I think Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller) is his masterpiece. hopefully the Zappa
estate will get their act together at some point and release the original
version of this, which they have the rights to.

the Revenant 4 (5?) CD box is currently scheduled for March. details and track
listings can be found at the superb Beefheart site located at
www.beefheart.com, in addition to many unreleased songs, which you can
download and burn onto CDs yourself, if you are so inclined. the box includes
the original Trout Mask. it's not a "greatest hits" box at all, but previously
unreleased (except on bootlegs) material.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 12:08:05 -0800 (PST)






---William York <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> > - -- whereas Naked City, for example, was more about existential
issues,
> > for the want of a less inadequate term -- and even the one even
> > vaguely "political" (in a broad sense of the term) Naked City
record,
> > Radio (if I'm interpreting the bondage photo in the cover right),
was
> > still basically music-related, while Masada is about things like
> > martyrdom and genocide and cultural memory, and if Zorn wants to
[cut]
>
> Could you explain more about this interpretation of the Radio cover
b/c I
> asked about this a week or so ago and I still don't see much of a
> connection with the music.
>
Basically, it has to do w/ the state of the music industry @ present
(for which radio is used as a synechdoche), and the rigid distinctions
between various genres of music (Top 40, Modern Rock, Classic Rock,
Country, Jazz, HipHop, whatever) -- exemplified by the fairly unified
(generically) compositions that make up most of the first half or so
of the record -- and the way that such a classification system traps
music-consumers in a weird S/M-y kind of rel'ship w/ the
corporate-music-machine, where they "like" whatever kind of music b/c
they've been told that this is what kind of music they like (I have 2
teenage sisters, so I can observe this firsthand), @ the expense of
other kinds of music they might actually like if they were to give it
a chance, which they can't do b/c they might miss some "great" "new"
thing in there own genre. (Admittedly that's a bit reductionistic)
Hence the tied hands and the sensory-dep. mask of the figure on the
cover. Or @ least that's the way I've rationalized that picture's
being on the cover.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Age and innovation
Date: 02 Dec 1998 15:06:13 EST

In a message dated 98-12-02 11:32:40 EST, you write:
>By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
>wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?

Nope, even younger (35 or 36), and Schubert even younger (31 or so) and
Mendelsson (was he in the original poster's list?) didn't make it to 40
either. Still, I think that when you look at classical music, the majority of
great composers did their greatest work later in life. Off the top of my head,
and trying to do it alphabetically, Bach, Bartok, Beethoven, Berg, Brahms,
Britten, Bruckner, Faure, Honegger, Janacek, Mahler, Shostakovich, Verdi, and
Wagner wrote what at least I'd view as some of their greatest works near the
end of at least middle-aged (50s) to very old lives. In the classical world of
days gone by, it seems that composers who did not get better with [old] age
are viewed as those that burned out or otherwise peaked early/prematurely,
whereas in our century, it is more expected that the "earlier" works of
musicians will be more vital or innovative or important, and I agree that they
often are.

It is interesting as a sociological as well as creativity-oriented question.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Melody Unasked For (fwd)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 15:42:15 -0500 (EST)

Fellow listers,

Apologies for the self-promotional spam, but if anyone's near their
computer this Sunday evening, I'm playing a solo guitar set that'll be
streamed live. See below for details.

Thanks,

Jason Bivins


---------- Forwarded message ----------


MELODY UNASKED FOR
Sunday, 10pm-Midnight EST
WFHB * 91.3 FM & 98.1 FM
Bloomington, Indiana
Live streaming Real Audio at: www.wfhb.org

Tune in next Sunday at 10:15 pm for a live solo guitar performance by
Jason Bivins.


PLAYLIST FOR NOVEMBER 29:

Artist, Album. Track. (Label)
Rova, The Crowd. Terrains. (hatArt)
Jason Bivins, Lost Deeds. King of Prussia. (bivtone)
Greg Kelly/Tatsuya Nakatani/Bhob Rainey, nmperign. iii. (Twisted Village)
Trans Am, The Surveillance. The Campaign/Access Control. (Thrill Jockey)
Ensemble Duchamp, Etant Donnes. The Only Thing Worse than a Loss...
    (Sachimay)
Morgan Guberman, Hamadryas Baboon. Composition Five. (Pax)

--Mixing in and out of:--
Zoviet France, A Flock of Rotations. Io! (Charrm)
John Zorn & Bobby Previte, Euclid's Nightmare. #24. (Depth of Field)
Aube, Purification to Numbness. Elementary Particle. (Pure)
Beat Junkies, Return of the DJ Vol. 1. Scratch Monopoly. (Bomb DJs)
Franco DeGrassi & Gianni Lenoci, CD. #3. (ASC)
Briggan Krauss, 300. Christmas Nightmare. (Knitting Factory)
In The Wrong, In The Wrong. A5. (Sunship et al)
Thurston Moore, Please Just Leave Me (My Paul Desmond). (Pure)
DJ Spooky, Riddim Warfare. Peace in Zaire. (Asphodel)
Per Henrik Wallin, Deep in a Dream. I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plans.
    (Dragon)
    ----
Zeena Parkins, No Way Back. Venus Smiles. (Atavistic)
Mark Whitecage 4tet + Joseph Scianni Trio, CIMPosium V. 4. Broadway
    Two-Step. (CIMP)
Misako Kano, Breakthrew. Mao. (Jazz Focus)







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Per Henrik Wallin (was Re: Melody Unasked For (fwd))
Date: 01 Dec 1998 15:31:09 -0500

> Per Henrik Wallin, Deep in a Dream. I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plans.
>         (Dragon)

What do people think of Per Henrik Wallin? I've never heard him but I know
Mats Gustafsson plays on at least one of his records. Could anyone describe
his playing?

                                          -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 18:15:13 -0300

Rich Williams wrote:
>
> The Ganelin Trio played on  NBC's Today show
> into 5 minutes of Free improv
> A true golden moment in
> american broadcasting.

Where's the tape? Someone somewhere has to have a tape of this.
I believe it's your responsibility, having mentioned this chestnut, to
find us all access to a tape! ;-)

Let me now,
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies
Date: 02 Dec 1998 18:55:28 -0500



Hello Folks on the Zorn-List,
Just thought I would give a couple quick reviews of two recent
releases by musicians frequently mentioned on the list.

Keiji Haino with Boris - "Black: Implication Flooding"
- Inoxia Records (IXCD0002, 1998)
This is a pretty fine live recording from 1997
featuring Haino with the Japanese guitar/bass/drum
trio, "Boris".  The sound strikes me as a combination of
the improvisational Alan Licht/Haino ensemble on "Gerry Miles"
(Atavistic) and the ponderous density of the long
Naked City recordings like "Leng T'che" and "Grand Guignol",
(which I know some people on the zorn-list don't like but
which are my favorite Naked City tracks.)  Sometimes this
ensemble reaches Fushitsusha-esque density.  Haino plays
five or six different instruments (including voice).  Plus,
the disc has the always delightful Haino song titles like track
8, _Don't be cheated by the oozing silt from both of the
accuser and the accused which is always there, saying "something
have to be done"_.  This is a good one & 70+ minutes long.

Alan Licht and Loren Mazzacane Connors - "Hoffman Estates"
- Drag City (DC 151, 1998)
Here, these two guitarists are joined by ten other musicians,
including Jim O'Rourke and Ken Vandermark. I have heard
about 10 different records by Mazzacane Connors and I have
seen him play and he has a trademark sound, which is admittedly
a very fine, textured, and pleasing sound, but sometimes
too sparse and too similar from record to record for my
tastes.  So it is nice to hear him in an ensemble which
at times fills in the sparseness of the guitar with horns,
bass, bass clarinet, etc., while at other times managing to
pull Mazzacane Connors into a somewhat non-Mazzacane Connors
mode of playing.  The cd has both the serene tunes we have
come to expect from Mazzacane Connors and some atypical tunes,
bordering on the chaotic.  This too is a good one.

David K.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Per Henrik Wallin
Date: 02 Dec 1998 19:13:15 -0500

>From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Per Henrik Wallin (was Re: Melody Unasked For (fwd))
>
>> Per Henrik Wallin, Deep in a Dream. I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plans.
>>         (Dragon)
>
>What do people think of Per Henrik Wallin? I've never heard him but I know
>Mats Gustafsson plays on at least one of his records. Could anyone describe
>his playing?
>
>                                          -Tom Pratt

I have a couple of his discs, including the one with Gustafsson.  I don't
play them very often.  He is in the lineage of Euro-improv that is vaguely
related to jazz.  The closest comparison I can think of is Irene Schweizer,
on the two solo albums on Intakt.  However, where Schweizer makes the music
sound fresh and interesting, Wallin's version of it just seems like he is
stringing together old ideas, with not a lot of new, creative,
contribution.  The one with Gustafsson (Dolphins Dolphins Dolphins) has a
couple of good pieces by Mats, but probably not worht it just for those.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Listowner! (No Zorn content)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 20:23:18 EST

Sorry all-

I can't remember the email addy for the listowner here, but i've got an answer
about that 7-bit/8-bit email situation we were discussing a couple of months
ago.  Get back in touch if you're interested...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 20:23:12 EST

In a message dated 12/2/98 10:52:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Also, if anyone could tell me something about the Ganelin Trio (Russian
>  jazz group) that would be helpful - like about their recordings.  i've
>  read about them and while their is no downtown connection it seems like
>  they might bear some resemblence to other people talked about here.  The
>  Penguin guide is more confusing than anything else to say, so I'm fuzzy as
>  to what Kind of resemblence, but it seems interesting.  Reply off the
>  list if you want,

After I had bought up all the readily available vinyl I could find by the AEOC
in the mid-80's, I asked a friend of mine who runs Papa Jazz in Columbia about
bands similar to that group.  He introduced me to Leo Records and The Ganelin
Trio, calling them the "Art Ensemble of Russia."  Got to say, that comparison
is pretty much on the mark, that is if you replace the African themes of the
AEOC with Russian folk influences.  I haven't really kept up with the band
since pianist Slava Ganelin emigrated to Israel in the late 80s, so I don't
really know what's available on CD or still available on LP, but all of the
LPs I heard from the original trio of Ganelin/Tarasov/Chekesin are very good.
The first one I know is on CD, titled _A Night in East Berlin_ or something
like that.  It's a pretty good place to start.

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
Date: 02 Dec 1998 20:23:16 EST

In a message dated 12/2/98 2:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Speaking of Beefheart, can anyone recommend the next best thing to listen
>  to after Trout Mask Replica?

The Swedish trio Kraldjursanstalden.  Probably still available from Wayside.
It's like Beefheart on speed with vocals in Swedish.  Mind blowing music...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Gillett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 02 Dec 1998 19:54:34 -0600

Here's a taste of what everyone's favorite faceless bookstore thinks of
this year's crop of CDs:

8. Piazzolla: Mar=EDa de Buenos Aires
20. Noon Chill - Arto Lindsay
28. Live In Greenwich Village: The Complete Impulse Recordings - Albert=
 Ayler
29. No Idea - Misha Mengelberg Trio
49. Shleep - Robert Wyatt
50. Marc Ribot Y Los Cubanos Postizos - Marc Ribot
53. Starters Alternators - The Ex
56. Coming Home Jamaica - Art Ensemble Of Chicago
71. Stumble - Ken Vandermark, Aaly Trio
74. Dok - Oval, Christophe Charles
75. Wave Field - Rafael Toral
79. The Circle Maker - John Zorn

Also a fair amount of African and South American music, and probably some
other things list members might enjoy (Labradford, MMW, Amon Tobin).  An
oddly even-handed list.  Bob Dylan's 1996 concert set is #1.


-- Charles


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rusty Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Parachute Years box for sale
Date: 02 Dec 1998 17:56:14 -0800

After an extended bout of zornic completismitis, I have emerged with my
financial standing shaky but intact, and my temperature, bp and red count
slowly returning to normal. Suddenly, I no longer feel the compulsion to
own everything the man puts out.

With this in mind, I offer for sale my copy of the Parachute Years box
set. Mint, played once. Some discs not even played once. First offer of
$70 gets it; shipping is on me. E-mail me privately. Thanks for shopping,
and come again.

Rusty Crump
Redding, CA


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 02 Dec 1998 21:58:47 EST

I was coincidently browsing through some of the amazon.com jazz listings t=
oday
in an effort to secure a good deal on the Bitches Brew box (I ended up fin=
ding
it for 39 bucks including shipping, from a place called Total E that seems=
 to
be the online site for Columbia House. if you're interested, there's a cou=
pon
you need at:

http://www.totale.com/passthru?bodytmpl=3Dwb/tmpls/jump.html).

anyway, I was also impressed by the "avant-garde/free" listings and
recommendations. one thing that's interesting to note, however, is that th=
ey
only allow CDs they carry to be on their lists or in their articles. so, w=
hile
they are pushing the new Art Ensemble record pretty hard, with four or fiv=
e
separate mini-articles on them (!). they follow it with what claim to be
definitive Art Ensemble of Chicago on CD suggestions, not including the 5 =
CD
Nessa box, the 2 Black Lion discs, the Fontella Bass record, etc.

on the other hand, they have only been carrying music for a few months, an=
d
they already have a pretty wide range of stuff. I did a label search on "H=
at"
and found a whole bunch of more obscure Hat Art CDs for $13.49 apiece,
including some gems like the Anthony Ortega record or Myra Melford's "Aliv=
e In
The House Of Saints".

and that Rafael Toral record is pretty great, layered droning feedback tha=
t
sounds beautiful loud or soft.

so, despite what someone posted a while back, I'm planning on posting my
notable records and notable reissues of 1998 lists here sometime in the ne=
xt
few weeks, unless I get some personal e-mails asking me not to. please don=
't
send a response on this topic to the whole list.

Jon

In a message dated 12/2/98 8:56:10 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Here's a taste of what everyone's favorite faceless bookstore thinks o

this year's crop of CDs:



8. Piazzolla: Mar=EDa de Buenos Aires

20. Noon Chill - Arto Lindsay

28. Live In Greenwich Village: The Complete Impulse Recordings - Albert Ay=
ler

29. No Idea - Misha Mengelberg Trio

49. Shleep - Robert Wyatt

50. Marc Ribot Y Los Cubanos Postizos - Marc Ribot

53. Starters Alternators - The Ex

56. Coming Home Jamaica - Art Ensemble Of Chicago

71. Stumble - Ken Vandermark, Aaly Trio

74. Dok - Oval, Christophe Charles

75. Wave Field - Rafael Toral

79. The Circle Maker - John Zorn>>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "abulafia" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hi, were back. I hope.
Date: 02 Dec 1998 21:36:23 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1E3B.CEACFDE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello all, John & Jen here.  We seem to be back on line with the =
internet mail thing now.  Or least I hope we are.  Send us something so =
we can make sure all is well.  Thanks, see yas.
 J&J

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1E3B.CEACFDE0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello all, John & Jen =
here.  We seem to=20
be back on line with the internet mail thing now.  Or least I hope =
we=20
are.  Send us something so we can make sure all is well.  =
Thanks, see=20
yas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2> J&J</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1E3B.CEACFDE0--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
Date: 02 Dec 1998 21:36:52 -0800

Definitely the responsibility of whoever brought up such a thing.You can't
just run around willy-nilly tempting people and teasing their appetites for
absurdity. I want to see it...I want to see it. I might settle for a
detailed description of the facial expressions worn by Jane Pauley and
Bryant Gumbel after the set.....no I won't.

----------
> From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
> To: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
> Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 1:15 PM
>
> Rich Williams wrote:
> >
> > The Ganelin Trio played on  NBC's Today show
> > into 5 minutes of Free improv
> > A true golden moment in
> > american broadcasting.
>
> Where's the tape? Someone somewhere has to have a tape of this.
> I believe it's your responsibility, having mentioned this chestnut, to
> find us all access to a tape! ;-)
>
> Let me now,
> RL


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 01:10:51 -0500

Charles Gillett wrote:

> Here's a taste of what everyone's favorite faceless bookstore thinks of
> this year's crop of CDs

An amazingly high percentage of Amazon.com's reviewers are subversive new music
types from alternative weeklies.  The word got around that Amazon.com paid really
well - and promptly - and the writers who responded most quickly were those who'd
toiled for little pay at the weeklies.

BTW - I don't think we can call Amazon.com "everyone's favorite" anymore... today
at work I got a spam-mail urging a widespread boycott, since they've allowed a
seemingly notorious homophobe / militant right-to-lifer / racist talk radio host
(someone I'd never heard of, but his website read like Rush Limbaugh to the nth
degree, minus the humor) to be one of their countless "sales associates" -
websites that sell stuff for Amazon.com via their own sites - to push his
preferred literature choices.  I guess this is where the First Amendment really
confronts the Free Market...

Anyway, the "jazz editors" at CDNow.com and BarnesandNoble.com (the latter
opening for music sales in March '99) are also Downtown-minded writers, so it
wouldn't be unusual to see something on these sites that would never appear in
their real world stores.

In that light, the list Charles forwarded is not so surprising.  But it is mighty
refreshing that the Net shops still allow some modicum of escape from the
overwhelming boredom of real world retail chains.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

P.S.  While I've had nothing of substance to contribute, I've very much admired
and enjoyed the ongoing debate re: the age/invention curve.  Some of the
liveliest posting we've seen 'round these parts lately...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 06:14:49 -0800

At 08:23 AM 12/2/98 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

>Its interesting,
>If it werent for listening to music, I would have absolutely no clue who
>Harriett Tubman was.   (And probably a few other important historical
>figures.) They didn't teach me anything about Harriet Tubman in any of my
>history classes.  (Then again, I did go to school in the South)

It is unfortunate that we know so little, because the schools don't teach
it to us.  I never heard of the March of Tears in school, I never heard of
Harriet Tubman in school.  Most Americans know far more about Monica
Lewinsky than they do about the Civil War.


Jeff Spirer
Color and B&W Photos: http://www.hyperreal.org/~jeffs/gallery.html
B&W Photos, Words: http://www.pomegranates.com/frame/spirer/
Axiom/Material: http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Harriet Tubman?
Date: 02 Dec 1998 08:23:24 EST

In a message dated 12/1/98 6:18:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>
>  Patrice is a Frenchman.  However, any American on this list who can't
>  answer the question of who she was should spend a lot more time reading
>  than listening to music.  She is one of the true heros of American history

Its interesting,
If it werent for listening to music, I would have absolutely no clue who
Harriett Tubman was.   (And probably a few other important historical
figures.) They didn't teach me anything about Harriet Tubman in any of my
history classes.  (Then again, I did go to school in the South)

-Jody

PS-  just saw Harriet Tubman (the band) last Saturday, not bad...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 01:40:25 EST

you might try borders.com as there physical stores caryy a large percentage of
available zadik releases.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn's neverending influence
Date: 03 Dec 1998 01:48:46 EST

i just thought of something about how zorn influenced me outside of music. i
don't remember who originally brought this up, but i have purchased movies
because i have heard the titles before. the first one i got because of zorn is
called grand guignol. it gave me a little insight into what the liner notes
were talking about. i don't know if jz saw the flick, but it would make sense
that he did.
the other movie i was inspired to check out because of the music of jz was
entrails of a virgin. i'm a really big fan of painkiller and noticed the title
right away. i had to have it. i didn't care that it was in japanese with no
subtitles.

btw, can anyone translate japanese? :-)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 06:11:54 -0500

At 01:40 AM 12/3/98 EST, [e-mail] wrote:
>you might try borders.com as there physical stores caryy a large
percentage of
>available zadik releases.

Where you are maybe.  Even the Zorn bin at my local borders only carries
the Nonesuch releases.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 03 Dec 1998 09:39:32 -0500

I noticed, in spite of a lot of references to "classical" composers, little
or no reference in this discussion to Zorn's "classical" (i.e., fully
notated for conventional accoustic instruments) work.  I also notice the
occasional remark showing somewhat less enthusiasm for this aspect of Z's
work (which seems to constitute an ever-larger proportion of his recent
compositional activity).  Those remarks are infrequent; perhaps more
noticable is the generally lesser interest shown in works like "Aporias"  (I
don't mean to be narcissistic here).

The audiences I played for recently in Europe with Zorn's ensemble were
astonishing in the close attention and interest and patience they showed in
an incredibly wide range of musical styles and content -- and we did some
_very_ demanding shit, from extreme noise to really, really long, quiet,
abstract counterpoint.  I've never encountered an audience in the USA like
this, which combines the best, most accepting and most intelligent (not to
mention courteous!) aspects of the audiences for the Boston Symphony, the
Group for New Music, Anthony Braxton and the Clash (I'm dating myself).
Does anybody have any thoughts on this?  Are we seeing (and participating
in, here on this list) the birth of a new, more widely curious audience at
the same time the Boston Symphony's audience is dying off, one by one?  As a
"classical" performer, I have a rather personal interest in this.
--- steve


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:
Date: 03 Dec 1998 09:31:23 -0500

Anybody know anything about the disc titled
Peace on Earth: Music of John Coltrane? I
believe Zorn appears on it. Any comments,
recommendations?

Charles.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 09:48:03 -0500

I'd be curious to find out just how or by whom this list was compiled.  Does
it have anything to do with sales or the buying public, or is it a
collection of some savvy buyer's lists?

JK
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs_Moreno?=" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:
Date: 03 Dec 1998 16:00:13 +0100

"PEACE ON EARTH" KNITTING FACTORY WORKS 158 PRIMA MATERIA WHIT R. ALI, A.
CHASE, BELLOGENIS...
jesusmoreno

----------
> De: Charles Jacobus <[e-mail]>
> A: 'The Zorn List' <[e-mail]>
> Asunto: re:
> Fecha: jueves 3 de diciembre de 1998 15:31
>
> Anybody know anything about the disc titled
> Peace on Earth: Music of John Coltrane? I
> believe Zorn appears on it. Any comments,
> recommendations?
>
> Charles.
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pjm <[e-mail]>
Subject: messing w/ speed of Torture Garden
Date: 02 Dec 1998 18:59:44 -0800

I'm approximately 35 digests behind , so i'm a lurker in the past. Some one
mentioned the following:

>I will listen to TG on endless repeat when I'm in the mood. It is the
>ultimate album to waken up a dead party. It never fails to shock and/or
>nauseate somebody. Another fun way to listen to it is on vinyl at 33 1/3
>RPMs. It was pressed at 45 RPM and you get a slightly slower, longer, but
>still great album at 33 1/3. If you have it on vinyl, try it at least once.

... which leads me to mention the joy i find in recording various songs
from Torture Garden on to the PC and slowing them down with Goldwave. I
have actually taped "Speedfreaks" at 10% of its normal speed because it was
so incredible. It's kind of like the MELVINS or "leng tche". A good time
for those so inclined.

        See you in the future.

                        pjm


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 17:03:28 +0100

Dear,

Who knows where i can find some (online) info concerning the drummer
Z'EV. I only own his avant-release and knows his is a music partner of
glenn branca.

Can anyone recommend me some records, opinions and (online) info

Best wishes

Stefan

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 08:02:50 -0800


On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 06:11:54 -0500  "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
>
> Where you are maybe.  Even the Zorn bin at my local borders only carries
> the Nonesuch releases.

The one in Portland (OR) is really mediocre (but the book and magazine
sections are not bad -- hey, they even carry JAZZIZ with the CD companion :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 03 Dec 1998 11:14:21 -0500


Stephen wrote:

>I noticed, in spite of a lot of references to "classical" composers, little
>or no reference in this discussion to Zorn's "classical" (i.e., fully
>notated for conventional accoustic instruments) work.  I also notice the
>occasional remark showing somewhat less enthusiasm for this aspect of Z's
>work (which seems to constitute an ever-larger proportion of his recent
>compositional activity).  Those remarks are infrequent; perhaps more
>noticable is the generally lesser interest shown in works like "Aporias"
>(I don't mean to be narcissistic here).

     My sense of list-members is that a sizeable portion are fairly young
     and have come to JZ's work, not surprisingly, from a rock-oriented
     environment, which makes for an easier appreciation of Naked City or
     Painkiller than for 'Redbird' or 'Aporias'. Other, older farts (like
     myself) probably first heard Zorn after a thorough immersion in the
     jazz avant-garde and have an easier time with the whole range of his
     output, but might still might have problems with those works which are
     perceived, rightly or not, as closer to the drier academic perspective
     ('Angelus Novus'--except for the 'Aliya' portion--, 'Aporias', maybe
     'Elegy') while enjoying those in Feldman-mode ('Redbird', 'Duras') as
     well as the notated noise pieces ('Etants Donnees'). In other words, I
     don't find the balance of interest shown in Zorn's relatively more
     accessible output to be surprising given the likely history of most
     subscribers. That being said, it may also be that many folk here, like
     myself, simply enjoy, say, 'Duras' more than 'Aporias' much like I
     enjoy Feldman much more than Boulez.

     >I've never encountered an audience in the USA like this, which
     >combines the best, most accepting and most intelligent (not to
     >mention courteous!)

Never? The audience at the Merkin Hall concert earlier this fall seemed pretty
receptive, etc. to me, as audiences at that venue generally tend to be. Maybe it
felt different from the stage, but the crowd appeared to run the gamut from
Painkiller-heads to new music aesthetes and most apparently enjoyed the, often,
difficult program.

Brian Olewnick (whose favorite concert of the year, BTW, was that of Mr. Drury
and Anthony de Mare performing Rzewski at the Kitchen)





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:Peace on Earth
Date: 03 Dec 1998 12:09:34 -0500 (EST)

It's by Rashied Ali's group Prima Materia with folks like saxophonists
Louie Belogenis and Allan Chase and bassists Joe Gallant and William
Parker. It's the band's version of various Trane classics.

If you're *only* a Zornie, don't get the disc, he doesn't stand out at
all. If you're interested in jazz, Coltrane, Ali, fine music,
non-Marasalis jazz repretory recreations, etc. though, pick it up.

Even better, IMHO, is the group's recreation of Albert Ayler's Bells,
expanded from the original 19 minutes to 1 hr plus. Tenor saxophonist
Belogenis is the standout here and Greg Murphy joins on piano.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]






On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Charles Jacobus wrote:

> Anybody know anything about the disc titled
> Peace on Earth: Music of John Coltrane? I
> believe Zorn appears on it. Any comments,
> recommendations?
>
> Charles.
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joeseph Simon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 12:09:54 -0500

Altho this is not a full length by any means, Z'ev does appear on Without
Fear Recordings release by Pointless Orchestra (Approaching Totality).

He appears on one track.  Also on this CD are guests Illusion of Safety, Amy
Denio, John Hejeski, Panya Roonuraang, Anna Homler, Matt Turner, Joseph
Celli and others.

You can find the companys page at: www.northeastohio.com/withoutfear

They have put out a couple fine releases and promise a fe few others that
should be great.

Silent also put out a double CD of Z'evs.

Joeseph

-----Original Message-----

>Dear,
>
>Who knows where i can find some (online) info concerning the drummer
>Z'EV. I only own his avant-release and knows his is a music partner of
>glenn branca.
>
>Can anyone recommend me some records, opinions and (online) info
>
>Best wishes
>
>Stefan
>
>-



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 03 Dec 1998 09:35:15 -0800 (PST)






[e-mail] wrote:
>      My sense of list-members is that a sizeable portion are fairly
young
>      and have come to JZ's work, not surprisingly, from a
rock-oriented
>      environment, which makes for an easier appreciation of Naked
City or
>      Painkiller than for 'Redbird' or 'Aporias'. Other, older farts
(like
>      myself) probably first heard Zorn after a thorough immersion in
the
>      jazz avant-garde and have an easier time with the whole range
of his
>      output, but might still might have problems with those works
which are
>      perceived, rightly or not, as closer to the drier academic
perspective
>      ('Angelus Novus'--except for the 'Aliya' portion--, 'Aporias',
maybe
>      'Elegy') while enjoying those in Feldman-mode ('Redbird',
'Duras') as
>      well as the notated noise pieces ('Etants Donnees').
As one of the fairly young subscribers who came to Zorn via the rock
side of his work, that sounds about right -- or about half right. The
other problem I have w/ Zorn's more "classical" works is that there's
a big hole in my knowledge of classical music beginning c. 1900, (one
of the few things I'm grateful to my father for is playing Mozart,
Wagner, Tchaikovsky, &c. when I was growing up, even if I cd.n't
appreciate it then) so I'm pretty much ignorant of the tradition these
pieces are coming out of (I'm slowly working @ remedying this), and I
don't really have any context to approach them thru, if that makes sense.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 10:38:50 -0800


Soleilmoon recently put out two Z'ev recordings:

*** - GHOST STORIES: Z'ev
*** - OPUS 3.1: Z'ev

Not sure if these are new releases or reissues.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 11:02:27 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Joeseph Simon wrote:

> Silent also put out a double CD of Z'evs.

Touch released a limited edition double-CD
retrospective in a box titled
"One Foot in the Grave". perhaps that's what
you are thinking of? it came with a fat
booklet including a biography, interviews,
a discography and other bits of information
on Z'ev. unfortunately, it's out of print.

a good place to simply read more about Z'ev
is the RE/Search Publications "Industrial Culture
Handbook" which includes an excellent
interview with Z'ev about his approach.
beware, the Avant disc is nothing like his
other works.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 11:03:34 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Soleilmoon recently put out two Z'ev recordings:
>
> Not sure if these are new releases or reissues.

"Ghost Stories" is new. "Opus" is a
re-mastered re-issue of an out of print
release from Staalplaat.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joeseph Simon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 14:19:29 -0500

Actually, your right, it is Touch.  My apologies.  It is no longer out of
print through.  Bent Crayon at www.bentcrayon.com has copies and it was
recently reissued...perhaps from Silent (that may be why I was thinking
that.)  However, this reissue does not have the booklet.

Speaking of books, he did have one published under his name...but that one
is probally out of print.

Joeseph
-----Original Message-----
Cc: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>;
[e-mail] <[e-mail]>


>On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Joeseph Simon wrote:
>
>> Silent also put out a double CD of Z'evs.
>
>Touch released a limited edition double-CD
>retrospective in a box titled
>"One Foot in the Grave". perhaps that's what
>you are thinking of? it came with a fat
>booklet including a biography, interviews,
>a discography and other bits of information
>on Z'ev. unfortunately, it's out of print.
>
>a good place to simply read more about Z'ev
>is the RE/Search Publications "Industrial Culture
>Handbook" which includes an excellent
>interview with Z'ev about his approach.
>beware, the Avant disc is nothing like his
>other works.
>
>hasta.
>
>Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.
natURE.
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Looking for info Z'eV
Date: 03 Dec 1998 12:14:29 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Joeseph Simon wrote:

> Actually, your right, it is Touch.  My apologies.  It is no longer out of
> print through.  Bent Crayon at www.bentcrayon.com has copies and it was
> recently reissued...perhaps from Silent (that may be why I was thinking
> that.)  However, this reissue does not have the booklet.

"Ghost of One Foot in the Grave"
was the re-issue you are referring to
minus the box and booklet. this was
also released by Touch. both of these
version are out of print. any copies
retailers still have are from existing
stocks sold ages ago by distributors.

Silent Records has been dead for years.

> Speaking of books, he did have one published under his name...but that one
> is probally out of print.

yes, it is.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Assyrian cuneiform;Spillane;Takemitsu
Date: 03 Dec 1998 16:06:15 -0800

I know this is not related to zorn, but this is an educated forum and I
thought I might find an answer to a difficult question here. Does anyone
out there know how to or knows anyone else who knows how to read assyrian
cuneiform? I was looking at somebone's bottle of cherry Coke when I noticed
some strange looking marks on it. After a little research I discovered that
it looked exactly like Assyrian cuneiform. That's where my ability to
pursue this further ran out.

One question that I do have that is related to zorn concerns a photo in the
liner notes for Spillane. It is the photo of a japanese filmmaker and his
wife on the set of a film. I don't have that particular album on hand right
now and I can't remember the names, but I was wondering if anyone knows
anything about the work of that particular filmmaker.

Finally...I have been listening to the Film Music of Toru Takemitsu and
would really like some recommendations on his guitar music and what other
recordings would be good to purchase. I would also be interested in
discussing the work of Leo Brouwer-privately, of course.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Assyrian cuneiform;Spillane;Takemitsu
Date: 03 Dec 1998 20:06:57 EST


In a message dated 12/3/98 7:04:28 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Finally...I have been listening to the Film Music of Toru Takemitsu and

would really like some recommendations on his guitar music and what other

recordings would be good to purchase.>>

David Toop wrote a fairly comprehensive essay on Takemitsu and which of his
available material he recommends for the current (December) issue of the Tower
Records magazine, Pulse. unfortunately, none of his musique concrete is
available on CD.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Assyrian cuneiform;Spillane;Takemitsu
Date: 03 Dec 1998 18:09:36 -0800


On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 20:06:57 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> David Toop wrote a fairly comprehensive essay on Takemitsu and which of his
> available material he recommends for the current (December) issue of the Tower
> Records magazine, Pulse. unfortunately, none of his musique concrete is
> available on CD.

Talking about David Toop, does anybody knows his e-mail address? I would like
to let him know the correct spelling of Olivier Messiaen.

The funny thing is that THE WIRE has been consistent in mispelling his name
(thanks to Toop, I guess), to the point that now other people (outside THE
WIRE) are using the wrong orthograph!!!!

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: William Parker advice?
Date: 03 Dec 1998 18:57:26 -0800

I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
next to find the definitive Parker?

Thanks-
Todd



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: William Parker advice?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 00:09:52 -0300

Todd Bramy wrote:
>
> I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
> Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
> next to find the definitive Parker?

This is a GREAT 2CD set.
Your question-- Looooong story. Off the very top of my head--
The other IOTS discs are all beautiful.
The Little Huey Orchestra discs are fantastic.
The Ware Quartet releases are more-or-less phenomenal. Get the new one.
Cecil Taylor also. Live in Bologna.
But he's everywhere.
Assif Tsahar trio. Many items in the Ware/Shipp/Ibarra discogs below,
but, again, he's everywhere.
Oh, ZO, duet w/ Shipp.
Shipp Multiplication Table Trio.
Shipp hatOLOGY Horn Quartet.
Other Dimensions In Music.
Everywhere...

Someone stop me...
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 20:39:31 -0800

The Zorn bin at the Borders in Monterey California had these albums:
Heretic, Redbird, Kristallnacht, Ganryu Island, The Big Gundown, Spillane,
Music for Children, and one of the Filmworks albums. They also had quite a
lot of Bill Frisell's work. I'm really surprised at how much these large
stores actually carry.
    Has anyone noticed the death of the small Bestseller stores like Readmore,
B. Dalton, etc.? Waldenbooks is starting to imitate the much more succesful
Barnes and Noble. B & N as well as Borders carries a lot of material that I
have never had easy access to before, outside of university libraries. I
hope that the trend of large completist book stores manages to survive. I
know someone in tax law who claims that it is common knowledge in his
professional community as well as in law enforcement that Barnes and Noble
is actually owned by an organized crime group. Supposedly this is supposed
to explain why it is as successful as it is despite the obvious expense it
goes to ensure a large and varied stock. A stock that, putting my faith in
humanity aside, I wonder how it sells.
    In my area the small mall record stores as well as the nasty little pop
chains like Wherehouse are also dying out. They are being replaced by
independtly owned stores and the Tower chain. It runs counter to my usual
assumptions to see such large stores cater as well as they do to marginal
tastes. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon in their areas? What is it
that is causing big business to market to small niches?

----------
>
> At 01:40 AM 12/3/98 EST, [e-mail] wrote:
> >you might try borders.com as there physical stores caryy a large
> percentage of
> >available zadik releases.
>
> Where you are maybe.  Even the Zorn bin at my local borders only carries
> the Nonesuch releases.
>
> --
> Caleb Deupree
> [e-mail]
>
> Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
> -- Pablo Picasso
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 23:43:52 EST


In a message dated 12/3/98 23:37:21, you wrote:

>Waldenbooks is starting to imitate the much more succesful
>
>Barnes and Noble

if memory serves (being a former of the big ugly b+n) b+n and waldenbooks are
kinda one and the same. discounts apply, etc. so it makes sense that b dalton
is slowly going the way of the betamax (better, but nobody's buying).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 00:28:59 -0500


MANG! Christian Heslop wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon in their areas? What is it
>that is causing big business to market to small niches?
As much as I hate pat answers, maybe they've noticed that the amount of
money that actually goes into all of those small niches isn't quite as
small as they would have figured. If you put enough of the little stores
out of business by offering the same stock at better prices, even the indie
fiends are going to have a hard time justifying not buying from you.
Personally, I'm not all that fussy about who I buy my music from, as long
as I'm able to find the titles that I want.
  Besides, just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins if/when
large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer bases
possible!

-me


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 03 Dec 1998 21:54:13 -0800

Out here, Waldenbooks is definitely not better. It's rarely found outside
of malls, and even then its stock is narrow and specific. B&N seems to go
much further out on a limb when it comes to buying. It's like they have
some sort of bona-fide bibliophile at the helm (albeit on a leash). In any
case, Borders is better (again, regional variation applies). I couldn't
believe the amount of university press published books that they carried,
not to mention a philosophy section that I never believed could occur in
any bookstore that wanted to make money. As I mentioned before, they are
the best local source of music.

----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re:  Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
> Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:43 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 12/3/98 23:37:21, you wrote:
>
> >Waldenbooks is starting to imitate the much more succesful
> >
> >Barnes and Noble
>
> if memory serves (being a former of the big ugly b+n) b+n and waldenbooks
are
> kinda one and the same. discounts apply, etc. so it makes sense that b
dalton
> is slowly going the way of the betamax (better, but nobody's buying).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caliban <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 00:56:44 -0500



stephen drury wrote:

> I noticed, in spite of a lot of references to "classical" composers, little
> or no reference in this discussion to Zorn's "classical" (i.e., fully
> notated for conventional accoustic instruments) work.

On the whole, I have not found a great deal of his "classical" work particularly
inspired (but that's just my personal opinion). Alot of his recent output seems
mainly to have consisted of early works, recorded for the first time (or
re-released, as the case may be) so it's kind of hard to judge his growth as a
"classical" composer. Of course, I don't really see much point in delineating
his works into different categories. "Jazz", "Classical", "Ambient", etc., don't
really seems to apply to JZ (or most of the composers in the avant-garde around
his age). Some of his works in this idiom have been quite successful- "Elegy"
and "Duras" come to mind- there's a certain passion present there- but it seems
when he tries to hold himself into a particular style- like many of the works on
"Angelus Novus", it all comes out sounding a bit generic. All the conventions of
"modern music" are there but I don't hear any soul in it, like I do in the
aforementioned pieces, or Masada, or any number of his other projects. The piece
for winds on "AN", in particular, sounds like a music school composition
assignment. It's an early work, I know, but perhaps it didn't need to come out
of the shoebox full of old scores on the floor in the closet and be recorded. As
far as "Aporias" goes... I liked it. It didn't blow me away but there are
certainly segments that stand out- like the hand clap sequence. Which reminds
me, I must ask: Is that section a veiled reference (or at least tip of the hat
to) Miles' "On the Corner"?

> The audiences I played for recently in Europe with Zorn's ensemble were
> astonishing in the close attention and interest and patience they showed in
> an incredibly wide range of musical styles and content

Many friends of mine who have played in Europe- whether they played rock, jazz,
techno, metal, whatever- have said the same thing. People in Europe are far more
open to music outside of the mainstream. In the US, it seems sometimes like you
can't get a gig unless you get on MTV first. And if you do score a gig nobody
shows up 'cause nobody's ever heard of you 'cause you're not on MTV. Granted, in
the larger cities it's a little easier but here in East Inbred, Connecticut,
gigs are pretty sparse for fringe music. I think it may be more of a reflection
on Americans than Europeans, honestly. I tend to think that people are naturally
curious, but here in the US we tend to be overstuffed and overstimulated with
and by massive quantities of mindless entertainment. Not that I'm complaining- I
love mindless entertainment as much as the next guy. But I can see how people
would lose interest in music, art, film, etc. after awhile. There's just so much
of it thrown at you at all times from all directions. You know, I don't listen
to the radio, I don't watch MTV, but I can sing you the melody of every song on
Billboard's Top 40. How the hell did I get all those songs stuck in my head? I
have no fucking idea. I'm sure no one on this list listens to the sort of radio
station that would play Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You"- but I bet
you all know it by heart. (If you don't, you have my envy. Or you live on the
Moon.)
So, I guess after all that long-winded claptrap my point is that in this country
we're simply so inundated with entertainment that after awhile, most people are
just satisfied with what they're given. I don't know if it's any different in
Europe. I'm just theorizing here.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 00:52:36 EST


In a message dated 12/4/98 0:50:34, you wrote:

>a philosophy section that I never believed could occur in
>
>any bookstore that wanted to make money.

they can probably afford it thanks to the steady flow of john grisham and
patricia cornwell. sorry. enough bookstore bashing

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 06:03:35 -0600


>     >  Besides, just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins
> if/when
>     > large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer
> bases
>     > possible!
>     I found Somnific Flux and Final at my local Tower for $2 each.
>
>     This thread brings up something that I have wondered about.
>     Usually when I purchase, I purposefully steer clear of such
> mainstream
>     megastores and try to purchase from smaller places that cater to my
>     musical tastes. The few times that I haved purchased stuff from big
>     chain stores, I feel kind of guilty. Do they really need my
> business?
>     What with thousands of copies of the lastest Marilyn Manson release
>     flying of their shelves, I would think not. I find i strange that
> somebody
>     mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
>     How do other people feel about this?
>
>
>     -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 09:51:36 -0300

Marks, Andy wrote:
>
> >just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins
> > if/when large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer
> > bases

>  I find i strange that somebody
>   mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
> How do other people feel about this?

Bad.
If you're not particular about where you buy stuff, eventually you'll
have no "control" over what you have access to, because the chains
certainly do not care about "YOU". Around here, every street corner
begins to look the same. Either a BP or Country Fair/Citgo katty-korner
from either a Revco or Eckerd Drug store. All Big. All giving you a
senseless choice of three-hundred kinds of toothpaste and lots of
sodapop. I steer towards the few remaining corner stores and privately
owned gas stations. The people there (remember "people"?) know my name,
know what I want, and actually become pals after awhile. I don't want to
trade community for CHEAP, because CHEAP gets me music stores where none
of the kids working there have any idea who Oliver Nelson is, let alone
Marilyn Crispell. Also, the trend of finding more important material in
large chains is generally a limited deal. The Media Play stores are
notorious for going in stocked to the gills with cool quality jazz, but
none of these titles get re-ordered. They get you in there with them
low-low prices, but they don't actually CARE if the music is available
to us or not. Also, the chains generally make every effort to put the
small independents in a given area out of business, as seen in the means
used by Starbucks to kill small indy coffee shops. Lease a prime
store-front down the block for x times the value until the indy closes
its doors. Anyway. This is all a political question, isn't it? Wal-Mart
kills local economies. If I shop local (or independent) he money stays
in the local economy, rather than flying willy-nilly into the corporate
coffers of some fatqat a thousand miles away. WalMart are heavy-handed
censors where books and music are concerned. But hey, they're cheaper...

I'll hunt down the knowledgable individual at the local record shop or
bookstore. I don't eat at mc'Donald's either.

I also will grant, without editing this since I'm late for work, that it
rambles, is pissy and obviously written by someone who detests
"franchises" of all shapes and colors.

HA!
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 08:03:07 -0600

    > its doors. Anyway. This is all a political question, isn't it?
Wal-Mart
    > kills local economies. If I shop local (or independent) he money
stays
    > in the local economy, rather than flying willy-nilly into the
corporate
    > coffers of some fatqat a thousand miles away. WalMart are
heavy-handed
    > censors where books and music are concerned. But hey, they're
cheaper...
    What about purchasing stuff over the internet? Almost all of my
purchases
    now come from an online place specializing in what i like. A
speciality store
    near me just recently closed and it got me thinking. I used to go
there once
    a week to check out new releases, etc. They always had
Zorn/experimental stuff.
    It was the only place I would buy from locally. But after getting
more and more into
    the internet and joining this list, I began to frequent there less
an less. And I began
    to find better prices on the internet. This local place would charge
$16-18  for your
    average Tzadik release. I paid these prices for a while, but once I
found out that I could
    get them online for around $13, I stopped buying stuff there as
much. Before they closed
    I would visit them 1 a month if I was lucky. I could just get stuff
cheaper and faster off of
    the internet.

    I'm not trying to argue one way or another here. This is just stuff
that I've been
    thinking about (Never been much good at debating).
    I'd like to here what other have to say about this.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 06:31:22 -0800

If a local store fails to carry what I am interested in, I will not shop
there. If a large store does carry what I want, I will buy it there. I live
in Monterey California, where concern for locally owned and operated
businesses is very high. The guy who works at the corner record store knows
"who" some of the artists I'm interested in are, but his store doesn't
carry their work. I also don't seem to be able to order it from them. Bay
Books on Alvarado St. has an embarassingly small and putrid stock of books.
The Borders in the neighbouring town has much more of interest than the
local book shops. It seems to me that some of the smaller operations have
abandoned smaller interest groups because of the necessities of competing
with giants. While the giants have picked up wandering markets. When I
bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled. I
have also been able to buy professional level history and linguistics books
from Borders. They are also the only bookstore that I have been in that
carries untranslated literature. I actually found myself in the ridiculous
situation of criticizing them because they didn't carry Korean or Chinese
lit. Whereas before I wouldn't have been able to find anything in German
either. I made the remark in a private e-mail that many of these large
chain book and record stores are using the income from larger volume
"stuff" to allow them to carry things that appeal to a smaller, more
discriminating audience. That is something that I admire. I am not sure how
Wal-Mart found its way into this thread. I never mantioned it. We don't
have one in Monterey.
    By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record
store?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: William Parker advice?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 10:03:50 -0500 (EST)

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Todd Bramy wrote:

> I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
> Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
> next to find the definitive Parker?

parker is ubiquitous.  you've probably got a pretty solid representation
right there.  susie ibarra is insane.  i just picked up parker's first
record as a leader, "through acceptance of the mystery peace," and it's
good, but i like his more recent work better.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Audience for classical/chamber music (Mr. Drury's question) - long
Date: 04 Dec 1998 10:53:21 -0500 (EST)

> As one of the fairly young subscribers who came to Zorn via the rock
> side of his work, that sounds about right -- or about half right. The
> other problem I have w/ Zorn's more "classical" works is that there's
> a big hole in my knowledge of classical music beginning c. 1900, (one
> of the few things I'm grateful to my father for is playing Mozart,
> Wagner, Tchaikovsky, &c. when I was growing up, even if I cd.n't
> appreciate it then) so I'm pretty much ignorant of the tradition these
> pieces are coming out of (I'm slowly working @ remedying this), and I
> don't really have any context to approach them thru, if that makes sense.

Agreed, again, but from my somewhat limited experience there is some stuff
(Boulez and Webern, for example) that I'm just not into.  I have an album
of Webern that I've listened to over and over (orig. 'recommended' by
Zappa) and I've never gotten into it. I've tried and tried, but it just
doesn't do it.

On the other hand, Ives, Stravinsky, Bartok and then more recent
electroacoustic and more tonal leaning stuff I often enjoy.  But I should
add that the only time I've ever seen any such thing live (Ives' "The
Unanswered Question") I enjoyed it about 5 times more than on record.
Even the audience, 90% of whom were there to dress up or maybe hear "Stars
and Stripes Forever" seemed to get something out of it too. Its just a
matter of getting people to show up and be somewhat willing to listen.

As for Zorn, I bought the Big Gundown 2 yrs ago expecting to hear what is
basically the sound of the first Lounge Lizards album (I hadn't heard
either), some sort of punk jazz or whatever.  So I was surprised.  I
actually didn't like metal, at all really, until the Naked City suff. Or
noise.  Actually it was the quick movement stuff that I think I liked the
most about it.

To answer Mr. Drury's question, as someone younger (college age), I'm much
more likely to find myself listening to jazz or rock performance based
stuff, although this often includes music influnced by other music I do
not like (for example, I like Derek Bailey which is influenced by Webern
and Stokhausen who I'm not so big on, Cecil Taylor being influenced by
Schoenberg, some of Frank Zappa's stuff (Weasels, Burnt Weeny Sandwich),
and so on.  So maybe it is the way it is played - the instruments, the
'energy level' (sorry) - that has to do with wanting to listen to these
things.

One more thing is the volume level - listening to classical orchestra
music on a stereo at home is difficult (when there are fluctuations in
volume, really quiet parts and so on) when coming from a rock or even jazz
bkgd.  BUT, if there were to be a live performance in my area, I would
definately be there, and there would be others there as well, who
I'm sure would listen as respectfully.  The difference between here
(North Carolina) and
Europe, possibly, is that
there isn't a large enough audience anywhere outside of big cities for
such programs as the recent Zorn chamber music tour to pay the bills.

My apologies for any generalities, oversimplifications, errors, etc. and
for the record I the the performances themselves on the recent classical
CDs are great, and I consider them all worth listening to even if I don't
like them, but in the end its often the art work  I like the most.    But
I'm trying..

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: William Parker advice?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 11:14:47 -0500 (EST)

Parker is "definitive" all over place and is a veritable "outside" Ron
Carter. Find a "free jazz" session recorded in the past 20 years and he's
likely to be on it.

A few recommendations:

Other Dimensions in Music "Now"(Aum Fidelity) --in quartet
w/ Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra "Flowers Grow In my Room" (Centering)
ditto "Sunrise In The Tone World" (Aum Fidelity)  -both "out" big band
Roy Campbell Pyramid Trio "Ancestral Homeland" (No More) trumpet, bass
ands percussion
Dorgon & William Parker "9" (Jumbo) -- C-melody(!) sax and bass

He also has done excellent sideman work with Ivo Perleman, Frank Lowe,
Cecil Taylor, Matt Shipp, David S. Ware etc. etc.





On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Todd Bramy wrote:

> I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
> Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
> next to find the definitive Parker?
>
> Thanks-
> Todd
>
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 11:36:24 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:


 While the giants have picked up wandering markets. When I
> bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
> The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.

So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four?



>     By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
> Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record
> store?
>

Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for
working there.

Seriously, I buy my CDs at *anywhere* that has the best prices and the
best selection of what I want, be it mail order, *small* store or chain
store. I found some deleted Ed Blackwell in the Tower bargain bin in New
Orleans, bought Cecil Taylor's "Always A Pleasure" for 1/3 the chain
store sticker price from mail order house Verge in Peterborough, Ontario.
and always make a point of picking up discs they're selling when I see an
artist live. (Fred Anderson could have moved a multitiude of CDs in
Toornto last weekend if he had brought any along).

Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a knowledgeable
buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Changed my mind
Date: 04 Dec 1998 11:59:16 EST

After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who
have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument
countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and
innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work
relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those
composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately
developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life.
Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to
explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a
point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the
rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a
Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano
Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread).

I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth
(whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter,
Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to,
what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional
"classical" world.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Changed my mind
Date: 04 Dec 1998 11:59:28 EST

After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who
have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument
countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and
innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work
relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those
composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately
developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life.
Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to
explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a
point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the
rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a
Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano
Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread).

I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth
(whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter,
Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to,
what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional
"classical" world.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 10:38:30 -0800 (PST)






---Christian Heslop <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I made the remark in a private e-mail that many of these large
> chain book and record stores are using the income from larger volume
> "stuff" to allow them to carry things that appeal to a smaller, more
> discriminating audience. That is something that I admire.
I don't know if I "admire" it -- I mean, I don't think there's any
altruism behind it, it's still just another way for a bunch of suits
to make $$$ -- but I'm certainly going to take advantage of it just
b/c it's more convenient than like Amazon.com.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 12:49:33 -0600 (CST)

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:

> When I
> bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
> The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.

So they now had *two* Zorn CDs? Wow. :-)

I find that I get most of my magazines at Borders, and most of my books
either there or at Amazon. While DC has a lot of indie bookstores, I
rarely find what I'm looking for in them. And the DC CD scene sux. (With
the possible exception of DCCD, which has a good and remarkably
inexpensive selection of local, often fringy CDs (made inexpensive by
cutting their margins very slim on them, probably as an
audience-attractor: for the CDs that we have in their on consignment,
they've taken them at the same price as other stores, but are selling them
for less than most).)

I get a lot of CDs through people selling them via mailing lists, most
often through postings here. I also recently ordered the Braxton Willisau
over the Net from North Country, and followed a post here yesterday to
TotalE, at which I used the online coupon to get CDs by Joelle Leandre and
William Parker.

I try to restrict my CD binging to stores in NYC when I get up there,
getting my stuff mostly at DMG and Other Music. And, as many on this list
know, DMG is the epitome of the small, informed CD shop: Bruce et al
actively research, promote, and publicize what they carry. Several times
recently, when friends have asked me for music recommendations, I've
pointed them there, since they'll be able to turn people on to the right
stuff. I also mail order a lot of stuff from them, and am drooling in
anticipation of their Web site.

I do buy a significant chunk of books at Borders, come to think of it, but
i consider it worth it: the combination of the coffee bar and the good
selection makes it an excellent reference library, so I actually use more
of their books than I buy, so I don't mind *too* much making a purchase
there every so often...

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wm. Parker
Date: 04 Dec 1998 13:52:02 -0500

>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:14:47 -0500 (EST)
>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: William Parker advice?
>A few recommendations:
>
>Other Dimensions in Music "Now"(Aum Fidelity) --in quartet
>w/ Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra "Flowers Grow In my Room" (Centering)
>ditto "Sunrise In The Tone World" (Aum Fidelity)  -both "out" big band
>Roy Campbell Pyramid Trio "Ancestral Homeland" (No More) trumpet, bass
>ands percussion
>Dorgon & William Parker "9" (Jumbo) -- C-melody(!) sax and bass
>
>He also has done excellent sideman work with Ivo Perleman, Frank Lowe,
>Cecil Taylor, Matt Shipp, David S. Ware etc. etc.
>

For some reason, no one has recommended my favorite places to hear Parker
(outside of his own bands), which are:

Brotzmann -Die Like a Dog, and the followup, Little Birds Have Fast Hearts

Gayle- Touchin' On Trane, and any of the quartet albums with 2 basses
(Consecration, Raining Fire, More Live At K.F, a couple of others)

Also, I would recommend the solo disc Testimony.  This is one of the best
solo bass albums I've heard.  Unlike others who do solo bass, Parker
doesn't really play songs, he plays music, or more accurately, sound which
he leaves up to the listener to interpret as music.  Not easy listening,
not even as accessible as the most out Little Huey stuff (Flowers Grow in
My Room is my choice of the two), but great.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 11:34:48 -0800

> > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.
You said:
> So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four?

    Ouch! It was four. Yes you are right. I do have such problems with simple
arithmetic. I really appreciate you clearing up my vague thoughts, as well
as your generous act of sending that same clarification to everyone so that
they too are relieved the mental pressure of sorting through my many
terrible mistakes. When I said "stock" I thought that I was referring to
*that which they usually carry*. I thought that was what "stock" meant.


> >     By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
> > Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a
record
> > store?
> >
You replied:
> Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for
> working there.

    Well. You could have just told me who they were. I certainly didn't say
that I wasn't interested. I don't work at a record store. My area of
knowledge is quite distant from the realm of music. I am simply a music
lover who is attempting to learn as much as I can. It is my failing that I
never seem to know anything about musicians until I am first exposed to
them. It is good to know that there are people like you out there who can
help me with my handicaps.

You said:
> Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a
knowledgeable
> buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism.

    Yes. *Usually*. That is exactly the point that I thought I was making. If
I remember correctly, I expressed surprise at a phenomenon that appeared to
me to be occuring. I questioned the rest of the group as to whether or not
they agreed. I think I already suggested that it was probably the work of a
sympathetic buyer. I do not represent any of the businesses in question. I
do not work in retail. I was suggesting that it wasn't entirely fair to
expect teenagers employed at minimum wage to be amateur musicologists. Did
I piss you off? You seem to have taken a strange tack on a group that is
composed of people with similar tastes.

                            Christian

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 14:58:08 -0500


GNANG! Rick Lopez wrote:
>Marks, Andy wrote:
>>  I find i strange that somebody
>>   mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
>> How do other people feel about this?
>If you're not particular about where you buy stuff, eventually you'll
>have no "control" over what you have access to, because the chains
>certainly do not care about "YOU".
The *chains* don't, no, but the people who work at the chains are just as
human as the folks who work at your local indie record stores, too, and
there's no reason why you can't get to know them. No matter how many drug
store/fast food/coffee shop chains you care to mention in taking a stand
against big business, the fact remains that, if a big-ass store can get a
single copy of a Zorn album on the racks, they have the distribution
contacts to get more if you let them know that those copies will sell.
  Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about whether or not titles are
restocked after I buy them; if I was able to buy a copy of a non-limited
release and manage to turn somebody on to that particular artist or album
after the fact, that person can go ahead and find a copy however they
want... maybe even by asking somebody at the big, scary store where I
bought my copy to order another one for them. Regardless of what the store
is, if they don't have what I want when I want it, then my options are
either to special-order it or to go somewhere else. If I'm not in a hurry
to hear something, and the somewhere else in question is going to charge me
an extra three or four bucks for the sake of being tiny, I might just wait
and let the big-ass store throw their weight around for me.
  Also personally, I do almost all of my shopping by mail order or in a
handful of tiny, independent stores around Toronto. In general, I've found
that the people working for these businesses are more willing to figure out
what I like, are more capable of making recommendations when I'm in the
mood to try something new, and I generally get along with them better than
I do with the generalists who work in big-ass stores. In the event that a
much larger corporate entity was able to offer the same selection that I
currently get from Penguin or Soleilmoon or Scratch, however, and save me
more than a couple of bucks on every purchase, then I'd shop at the big-ass
corporate store.

>This is all a political question, isn't it? Wal-Mart kills local economies.
Maybe not. While the profits that you envision being whisked away to a
faraway land might very well end up buying an executive in another country
a really nice house, the local Wal-Mart also employs a whole whack of
people. If B&N and other chains genuinely expand to the point where they
start to threaten niche markets as a category, then they're also going to
need to hire almost as many people as those niche stores used to employ
just to keep their shelves stocked and their sales staff from being run
ragged. Besides, if a big-box store genuinely strip-mines a local economy
to the point where every other person is out of work, that very same store
suffers just as much as everybody else from reduced spending.
  ...all of which makes me wonder why the big chains are in such a hurry to
become department stores, given how poorly most of the department stores
that were a big deal fifty years ago have fared during the last decade or so.

>I'll hunt down the knowledgable individual at the local record shop or
>bookstore. I don't eat at mc'Donald's either.
Congratulations. Neither do I, but that's more for health reasons (and a
general distaste for the smell of McGrease) than because of a knee-jerk
hatred of businesses based on size. Zorn did okay by Elektra, didn't he?

-me


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Z'EV
Date: 04 Dec 1998 15:09:39 EST

I'm not completely sure, but hasn't Z'EV had a history with the famous
industrial band, Psychic TV?

- matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Small Stores, Big Stores, and Bootlegs
Date: 04 Dec 1998 15:31:14 EST

I grew up in a family who owns multiple independent businesses that circulate
around our local area. From this experience I naturally think independent
before I think corporate. In fact when I was younger (around 14-18) the word
corporate seemed like it came from the devil. I have to say that I definitely
agree on the argument that states the huge amount of caring, friendliness,
knowledgeable, homelike, and other highly valuable qualities that spur from
the local independant stores around my hometown (Bucks County, PA). I will
admit to buying from Tower Records and Borders every now and then, but who
cares? Anyway, my reason for speaking up refers to the bootleg sales in these
independent record stores. The fact that you can go into a public store and
purchase illegal and very hard to find items is, IMHO, fantastic. I do not
know how you people feel about the issue. The hard to find items are always a
pleasure to anyone but the bootleg tapes, records, videos, CDs, ect. raises a
big debate amongst music lovers between those who say that the stores who
carry them are ripping off the artists and causing them a lot of money; that
these stores should be shut down or simply not carry these illegal items
anymore, or the greedy people who collect this stuff (like myself) and feel
that these stores are essential to our musical lifestyles. Let me add that a
big record convention just passed through PA that emphasized on rare and
bootlegged merchandise and the sellers whom I spoke with at the tables where
making a mint off bootlegs, they sold copied videos of handheld recorded
concerts for $25 - $35, recorded audio concert tapes sold for $5 - $10 each.
These people are independent alright, but they sometimes get looked at as
crack dealers by a few people. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 15:49:35 EST

  i feel a little bad that i started this big debate. the fact is that i work
for borders and have for the past five years. i was just trying to point out
that the last time i visited the web site there where around 60 titles listed
to match "zorn." that said, the conversation has been interesting and maybe i
should clarify a few things.
  what each store caries does vary depending on the market and the general
buying trends of the public at that store. at my store we have 30 titles by
zorn we regularly stock. when i checked we had sold at least one of each
during the past year. not big money, but it does tell us that we should be
carrying them because there is a local interest.
  as far as "big vs. small," it's like everything else, individual. i watched
my dad loose his business as wal-mart took over small towns through practices
that are quite frankly just plain illegal and immoral (remember kathy lee?).
as for borders i hope that you notice that they support the community they are
a part of, and if they don't then someone isn't doing there job. being part of
the community means everything from carring local product, hanging posters for
local shows, having local author signings that quite frankly don't make any
money, to good old finnacial support for art's and  community foundations.
hopefully all these reasons are why the company is succesful.
  i'm not a corporate lacky, but i do believe in what i do professionally.
-cbw

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 16:15:39 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> as for borders i hope that you notice that they support the community they
> are a part of

by busting up unions?

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dominique Leone" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: changed my mind
Date: 04 Dec 1998 13:58:01 PST

I think being able to approach a composer's work who is already dead
gives us a perspective we don't get with most artists today---that is,
we can listen to everything a certain composer did without bias.  For
someone like Zorn, we are growing, maturing, or atleast existing at the
same time he is, so we will always compare his new work with earlier
works we heard at a different stage in our lives.  The next generation
may say that it was with Zorn's 90s work that he began to get serious
and actually "compose."  You never know.  It all boils down to
perspective.

Dominique

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 04 Dec 1998 19:31:13 -0500 (EST)

Don't take things so hard. I was once a minimum wage teenager and knew a
lot about music. Other people have the same experience. Listen to as much
"different" music as you can and you'll be amazed how much good stuf
there is out there.

For the record, Oliver Nelson was an accomplished jazz composer/arranger
who turned out some masterful albums then went to Hollywood and worked
himself into a fatal heartattack doing dreck like "The $6 Million
Man". His acknowledged masterwork is "Blues And the Abstract Truth"
(Impulse) featuring Eric Dolphy (as); Freddie Hubbard (tmpt); Bill Evand
(p) and Paul Chamber (b) among others.

Marily Crispel is a well-known improvising pianist, who is best known for
the stint she spent in Anthony Braxton's Quartet. Since then she has doen
excellent work on her own and with others.

My particular favorites of her work are:

Cascades (Music & Arts), a trio with Barry Guy (b) and Gerry Hemmingway (d)
Band On The Wall (Matchless) with Eddie Prevost (d)
Natives and Aliens (Leo) with Evan Parker (ts,ss), Barry Guy (b) and Paul
Lytton (d)

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:

> > > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.
> You said:
> > So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four?
>
>     Ouch! It was four. Yes you are right. I do have such problems with simple
> arithmetic. I really appreciate you clearing up my vague thoughts, as well
> as your generous act of sending that same clarification to everyone so that
> they too are relieved the mental pressure of sorting through my many
> terrible mistakes. When I said "stock" I thought that I was referring to
> *that which they usually carry*. I thought that was what "stock" meant.
>
>
> > >     By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
> > > Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a
> record
> > > store?
> > >
> You replied:
> > Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for
> > working there.
>
>     Well. You could have just told me who they were. I certainly didn't say
> that I wasn't interested. I don't work at a record store. My area of
> knowledge is quite distant from the realm of music. I am simply a music
> lover who is attempting to learn as much as I can. It is my failing that I
> never seem to know anything about musicians until I am first exposed to
> them. It is good to know that there are people like you out there who can
> help me with my handicaps.
>
> You said:
> > Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a
> knowledgeable
> > buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism.
>
>     Yes. *Usually*. That is exactly the point that I thought I was making. If
> I remember correctly, I expressed surprise at a phenomenon that appeared to
> me to be occuring. I questioned the rest of the group as to whether or not
> they agreed. I think I already suggested that it was probably the work of a
> sympathetic buyer. I do not represent any of the businesses in question. I
> do not work in retail. I was suggesting that it wasn't entirely fair to
> expect teenagers employed at minimum wage to be amateur musicologists. Did
> I piss you off? You seem to have taken a strange tack on a group that is
> composed of people with similar tastes.
>
>                             Christian
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: zoyd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
Date: 04 Dec 1998 18:00:38 -0800

Christian Heslop wrote:What is it
that is causing big business to market to small niches?

one reason i can think of is that people in those small niches tend to
spend a disproportionate amount of their disposable income therein....
least i know i do...i spend, at a minimum, 100 dollars a month (during
lean months), in my niches and would spend a lot more ifn i could.
methinks the biguns are slowly realizing this fact...

zoyd

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 22:24:42 -0500

At 09:39 AM 12/3/98 -0500, stephen drury wrote:
>Does anybody have any thoughts on this?  Are we seeing (and participating
>in, here on this list) the birth of a new, more widely curious audience at
>the same time the Boston Symphony's audience is dying off, one by one?  As a
>"classical" performer, I have a rather personal interest in this.

The problem I have with the Boston Symphony (as a concept, not as a
particular institution) is that orchestral music, and classical music
generally, doesn't have the kind of variety and daring that I hear out of
the avant-pop side.   In the 60s and 70s, composers and performers like
Stockhausen and Cage really expanded the genre, opening it up to all kinds
of influences way outside the normal classical realm.  Although there are
still musicians doing this kind of work, the classical establishment has
chosen to retreat into the war horses in an attempt to keep the seats full,
and the audiences willingly participate.

I remember finding Luigi Nono's Wave of Fire and Light recording in my
local record store about 20 years ago (sorry to show my age), prominently
displayed among the new releases, on a major label (DGG), and purchased it
immediately.  Nono was very much alive, and still actively making exciting
and daring new music, I was a young person in my 20s eagerly soaking it up,
basically everything Stephen was asking for in his original post.  Now, I
look at my classical CDs (a pitifully small collection compared to what I
feel is a very fine selection of avant-garde classical vinyl from the 60s
and 70s), and other than some Cage and Tzadik recordings (and
electroacoustic, which I no longer file under classical), there isn't much
there.  I bought a James MacMillan album a while back based on a Wire
recommendation, but it did little for me compared to the Nono album.

Let's say I wanted to find some CDs of the most daring and avant classical
music of the last decade, music by a living composer, filed under
classical.  What would you recommend?

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn becoming ...?
Date: 04 Dec 1998 22:44:48 EST


In a message dated 12/4/98 10:22:49 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Let's say I wanted to find some CDs of the most daring and avant classical
music of the last decade, music by a living composer, filed under
classical.  What would you recommend?>>

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but the name that jumps to mind
for me is Iancu Dumitrescu. I could name any number of electroacoustic
composers who I love, but the question seemed to be about acoustic composers
only. unfortunately, you're unlikely to find any Dumitrescu at your local
superstore, but Forced Exposure carries all his discs. my suggestions on where
to start would be either catalog number Edition Modern 1001 or 1003. both
feature the remarkable contrabassist Fernando Grillo on some of the
compositions.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eric <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Avant-Classical recommendation (was: Zorn becoming ...?)
Date: 04 Dec 1998 22:48:59 -0500

Hi Caleb,

>Let's say I wanted to find some CDs of the most daring and avant classical
>music of the last decade, music by a living composer, filed under
>classical.  What would you recommend?

Well, I really like what Charles Wuorinen is doing now.  His stuff is full
of beauty and weirdness and I've always been quite astonished whenever I've
gone to see his pieces performed.  I'd recommend sticking to his post-1975
stuff though.  Start with his "New York Notes", which is for large ensemble
and computer.  The colours conveyed are simply incredible, and the strange
rhythms should satisfy the 'daring' element you're looking for.  His disc
of Trios is also quite effective, exploring close interaction between
various combinations of instruments.  If you do get this one, pay attention
to the masterful Bachian control of counterpoint.  Finally, be sure to
check out Wuorinen's "Genesis".  It's for orchestra and chorus and features
a musical depiction of the evolution of the cosmos (similar concept to
Stockhausen's "Ylem", but much better).

Charles Ives and Luigi Nono are still my hands-down favorite composers,
though, if that helps at all to put my tastes in context for you.

eric, mike baktin.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: GZ Pekinese Opera
Date: 05 Dec 1998 16:27:56 +1100

Can anyone tell me anything about Ground Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese
Opera"? I don't remember it being discussed much on this list...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: GZ Pekinese Opera
Date: 05 Dec 1998 09:06:46 -0500

Julian wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me anything about Ground Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese
> Opera"? I don't remember it being discussed much on this list...
>

If I'm recalling the sequence correctly, Heiner Goebbels (and Alfred 23
Harth?) built a work in the early 80's on samples of traditional Chinese
opera. Yoshihide and crew then sampled _their_ samples to construct RPO.
I've always been a bit confused as to the "version" numbers--whether
they're meaningful or not. In any case, I have version 1.28 (ReR G21)
and like it a great deal. Using the opera themes as a basis, it then
flies off in any number of directions, noise, rock and otherwise. If I
were to liken it to anything else, it'd probably be David Shea's
masterful 'Hsi-Yu Chi'. Strongly recommended.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 05 Dec 1998 08:57:44 -0800

    Thanks. Your voice was a little harsh. Something that I am sure would be
defeated by in-person delivery. I had the same problem last week with the
Absinthe thread.
    I knew a lot about music until I started participating in this message
group. Both musicians sound interesting. My recent experiences have shown
me that there is  a wealth of good material floating about in the world,
and that I will never listen to it all.


                        Christian

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: GZ Pekinese Opera
Date: 05 Dec 1998 12:03:01 EST


In a message dated 12/5/98 9:18:08 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<I've always been a bit confused as to the "version" numbers--whether
they're meaningful or not.>>

there was a very hard to find Japanese version of this on Trigram. a year or
two went by, Otomo slightly changed a few parts, added a few small parts, and
let Chris Cutler reissue it on ReR, which is the one that's available now
(1.28). I did a head-to-head comparison of the two once, and didn't feel like
the differences were enough to warrant picking up the ReR version, although it
is a bit longer. I'd guess that the details could be found in Patrice's great
Otomo discography.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Greg Cohen Query
Date: 05 Dec 1998 18:31:36 +0200

Hello -

Been lurking every since joining this list a couple of weeks back, have
lots to learn about John Zorn and the downtown crowd and have already
picked up quite a bit of interesting info. I like the tone of discourse on
this list; it seems both very open and very initiated.

Have lots of questions to pose, but will begin with a simple one: Has
anyone heard a CD released some months ago by Greg Cohen entitled _Moment
by Moment_? Anyone care to comment on its sound and provide me with label
details?

Thanks in advance, Stephen

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of the History of Ideas
Umea University
S-901 87 Umea Sweden


---------------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Chavez <[e-mail]>
Subject: BiskScalaAngelus
Date: 05 Dec 1998 12:21:57 -0600

Hello,  I have a few "possible purchase" questions I'd like to ask
before pushing the send button.

Bisk - anyone heard of this?  What's it like?
Scala - what is this group like?  Loud noise?
Angelus Novus - How long is this CD?

That's all.  Nothing too clever to mark with.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores
Date: 05 Dec 1998 14:40:33 EST

In a message dated 98-12-05 11:56:29 EST, Christian Heslop writes:

<<  My recent experiences have shown
 me that there is  a wealth of good material floating about in the world,
 and that I will never listen to it all. >>

And isn't that about the best damn feeling in the world?

Dale.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kronos Quartet - 25 Years
Date: 05 Dec 1998 15:11:04 -0800

Anyone heard this box set? comments, reviews, opinions?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: BiskScalaAngelus
Date: 05 Dec 1998 12:27:11 -0800

>Bisk - anyone heard of this?  What's it like?

I've got "Time" on Sub Rosa, and I like it, though I can't say that I've
pulled it out more than 4 or 5 times in the 2 years that I've had it.
It'll definitely fit in the electronica category, but there's a strong 80's
experimental/classical flavor running through it.  Fairly melodic.

>Scala - what is this group like?  Loud noise?

I thought they were a pop band from Georgia or thereabouts.  On the Too
Pure label, which would imply a bit of 4ad-esque atmospheric machismo...
Of course, I haven't heard a thing by them, but I do recall seeing messages
on one or the other of the "indie" lists which were positive.

Alexander
Radio Khartoum.           http://www.sirius.com/~xander/rk

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "hijk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dogon A.D.
Date: 05 Dec 1998 16:05:13 -0500

I spoke to Tim Berne last night and he said he's made some headway in
getting Dogon back out.  It'll have to be a European release and imported to
the US, but at least it will be available.

Jeff Kent
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BiskScalaAngelus
Date: 05 Dec 1998 13:55:27 -0800 (PST)

On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> >Scala - what is this group like?  Loud noise?
>
> I thought they were a pop band from Georgia or thereabouts.  On the Too
> Pure label, which would imply a bit of 4ad-esque atmospheric machismo...
> Of course, I haven't heard a thing by them, but I do recall seeing messages
> on one or the other of the "indie" lists which were positive.

Scala is Sarah Peacock and Daren Seymour
of Seefeel - and originally
Justin Fletcher -  along with production
partner Mark (Locust) Van Hoen.
the music is more pop than the ambient
sounds of Seefeel. they have two full
length CDs "Beauty Nowhere" (Touch)
and "To You in Alpha" (Too Pure)
and mess of singles from Too Pure.
"Compass Heart" is their newest offerring,
another full-length from Touch.

there are a couple of web sites with
additional information/discographies:

@ Hyperreal
www.hyperreal.org/music/artists/seefeel/scala.html

@ Too Pure
www.toopure.com/artists/scala/scala.htm

Seefeel +
members.iglou.com/artbear/seefeel.html

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: large & small stores
Date: 05 Dec 1998 19:09:07 -0500

After mentioning how badly stocked was my local Borders, I had occasion to
go into a larger one a little further away, and lo and behold there was the
Uri Caine Mahler album (which I grabbed immediately)!  In the classical
Mahler section no less.  The Zorn section was fairly well stocked, but I
was unable to find any other Tzadik album anywhere in the store (I'd have
picked up the David Shea).  Also picked up the Cage piano concertos, which
I've had my eye on for a while, since Stephen started a simultaneous
interesting discussion, and I should support our local musicians ;-)

At least some of the Towers I've been to have an avant-garde section, so I
can spend all my time in four linear feet of CDs, rather than wandering all
over the store wondering where they might keep the good stuff.  Where do
they keep David Shea albums in Borders?



--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Ref. : Re: GZ Pekinese Opera - Live Mao 99
Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:20:53 +0100

It's a little bit out of subject but there is also a very good GZ track Liv=
e=20
Mao 99 with oiginal material by Alfred Harth and Heiner Goebbels and pekine=
se=20
groups on a 7 inch from a series called Erase yer head, always split single=2E=
=20
This one is with Bastard (french group)=2E


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric John Lundberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn book
Date: 06 Dec 1998 15:32:40 -0800 (PST)

A couple of months ago somebody posted a message about a Zorn book called
Sonora or something.  I was wondering if anybody had any more information
on the book (like who is publishing it, if it is out,the authors etc.)
Thanks in advance for any information
Eric


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book
Date: 06 Dec 1998 19:25:43 -0500


MEEP! Eric John Lundberg wrote:
>A couple of months ago somebody posted a message about a Zorn book called
>Sonora or something.
It's apparently being put out by somebody associated with the Italian label
Materiali Sonori, but I'll be damned if I can connect with their Web site
(http://www.matson.it should get you at least part of the way there, but
the server sends back a "you aren't authorized to view directory listings"
message, and I haven't been able to guess the name of a single page on the
site yet). There are a couple of links to their site from different search
engines, including a few that are artist-specific, but absolutely nothing
that I've found so far. Does anybody know of a URL that actually leads
somewhere at the moment?

-me


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J. Kan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Rome recommendations?
Date: 07 Dec 1998 01:39:31 +0100

Yet another of these requests....

I'm in Rome for a few months.  Any ideas for interesting musical or other
avant-whatever events?  Record stores?  Radio stations?  Gelato?  Pedestrian
survival skills?

Jim


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book
Date: 06 Dec 1998 17:32:18 PST

I got through to the site, so maybe everyon else did to, but for those
of you who can't, and who can read Italian, here's the info from the
site, which is http://www.matson.it/Mb/Card/SonoraZorn/SonoraZorn.html:

ITINERARI OLTRE IL SUONO

                              JOHN ZORN

                      a cura di Carla Chiti & Walter Rovere





                        Il ritorno del progetto SONORA.

             Dopo quattro anni, riprende vita una delle pi∙ interessanti

                     iniziative editoriali della Materiali Sonori.

                          Uno strumento internazionale

                        di riflessione e di documentazione

                   per i pi∙ importanti eventi musicali e culturali.



                       Maestro d'azzardo

                              Giampiero Bigazzi



Ancora una volta Sonora si cimenta in un gioco di frammenti, tentando di
fissare (termine forse non
proprio adeguato in questo contesto) i primi venticinque anni dell'
attivitα di John Zorn.

Abbiamo tentato di esaminare (e documentare) il linguaggio zorniano, la
sua vicenda artistica, le sue
opinioni, il suo porsi nella musica e verso la musica. Un percorso alla
ricerca di tracce sul suo
personalissimo rapporto con lo strumento, la sua voce mediata, e poi la
sfida con gli altri arnesi, il filtro
della registrazione, l'esterno, fino alle sollecitazioni che provengono
dal cinema, dalla letteratura, dal
teatro. I ritrovati collegamenti con la cultura ebraica.

La sua Φ una presenza piena di tensioni, ma i suoi rumori ci sono
apparsi divertimento, libertα presa per
i capelli. Una collezione di reperti e di scorie. Nessun regalo alla
finzione espressiva, ma un filo diretto
dalla mente all'aria, con l'irritante e seducente gioco d'imprecazioni,
di ferite, di richiami, forse di
pentimenti. Ci ha affascinato soprattuto la diversitα di Zorn.

Abbiamo cercato di evitare le buone maniere tipiche del critico d'arte,
ma anche l'incoscienza degli
acc≥liti, cercando di raccontare una storia musicale complessa e per
certi versi esemplare (anche se di
difficile imitazione) per l'epoca in cui viviamo. L'intuizione che ne
scaturisce Φ evidente: l'esercizio
culturale giusto Φ mescolare con equilibrio, ma anche con temerarietα,
elementi diversi, spesso
appartenenti a mondi lontani. Il loro frantumarsi e ricomporsi in nuove
forme Φ la scommessa dei nostri
tempi. E Zorn Φ maestro di questo azzardo. Il suo navigare non parte mai
dal nulla, non lascia fluire il
discorso in un presente che fa tabula rasa di quello che Φ esistito
prima: il confronto con il fenomeno
umano Φ obliquo, sottile, aperto alle sfumature. Raccogliere frammenti
di realtα per poi giocarseli alla
roulette della vita.



                                   nel libro:

                    Eugene CHADBOURNE - Note sul Disco

                            Carla CHITI - John Zorn

                    Alberto PEZZOTTA - Velocitα e Citazione

             Franco MINGANTI - Musica, Cinema, Letteratura e altro

                     Claudio CANAL - Shpil, Klezmer, Shpil

                   Walter ROVERE - The Ear of the Beholder

                         immagini 1: Private Collection

                                   writings:

             John ZORN - Sound Directions in Fuller's Shock Corridor

                            John ZORN - L'Atalante

                 John ZORN - Jack Smith and Flaming Creatures

                                   archivio:

             Ela TROYANO - John Zorn's Theatre of Musical Optics

      Ruggero BIANCHI - Incontro con John Zorn, New York, 19 marzo 1979

                     immagini 2: John ZORN - Music Scores

                                    works



                                 nel compact:

                    ZORN & CHADBOURNE: The Viaduct

            CHADBOURNE, BRADFIELD & ZORN: Welcome West

                    ZORN & CHADBORNE: The Double AA

                2000 STATUTES: The English Channel (new mix)

       THE CHADBOURNES with ZORN: W VA Spec (newly done version)

                _________________________________________

                         book (144 pag) + compact disc

                                italiano e inglese

                                  Lit. 32.000

                 MATERIALI SONORI EDIZIONI MUSICALI

                          prenotazioni e informazioni:

                            MATERIALI SONORI

                       ph. 055.943888 - fx. 055.9120370

                           e-mail: [e-mail]


>Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:25:43 -0500
>To: [e-mail]
>From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: Zorn book
>
>
>MEEP! Eric John Lundberg wrote:
>>A couple of months ago somebody posted a message about a Zorn book
called
>>Sonora or something.
>It's apparently being put out by somebody associated with the Italian
label
>Materiali Sonori, but I'll be damned if I can connect with their Web
site
>(http://www.matson.it should get you at least part of the way there,
but
>the server sends back a "you aren't authorized to view directory
listings"
>message, and I haven't been able to guess the name of a single page on
the
>site yet). There are a couple of links to their site from different
search
>engines, including a few that are artist-specific, but absolutely
nothing
>that I've found so far. Does anybody know of a URL that actually leads
>somewhere at the moment?
>
>-me
>
>
>-
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos Quartet - 25 Years
Date: 06 Dec 1998 18:45:54 -0800

From what I recall looking at the Kronos website, it is something like
eight discs of material culled from their entire discography and touting
pretty proudly the fact that pieces are presented in their entirely. One
piece was re-recorded for this release: Terry Reily's Cadenza On A Night
Plain.

If Nonesuch is following the same formula they did with Steve Reich's box a
while back, we'll see this new recording released on it's own after a year
or so, as we saw with Reich's Music For 18 Musicians.

Todd

>
>Anyone heard this box set? comments, reviews, opinions?



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn book
Date: 07 Dec 1998 00:14:32 -0500 (EST)

Does anyone know of any good books on Zorn that were eithier written in
English or were translated, and where to get them? =20

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Scott Handley wrote:

> I got through to the site, so maybe everyon else did to, but for those=20
> of you who can't, and who can read Italian, here's the info from the=20
> site, which is http://www.matson.it/Mb/Card/SonoraZorn/SonoraZorn.html:
>=20
> ITINERARI OLTRE IL SUONO=20
>=20
>                               JOHN ZORN
>=20
>                       a cura di Carla Chiti & Walter Rovere
>=20
>                                        =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>                         Il ritorno del progetto SONORA.=20
>=20
>              Dopo quattro anni, riprende vita una delle pi=F9 interessant=
i
>=20
>                      iniziative editoriali della Materiali Sonori.
>=20
>                           Uno strumento internazionale=20
>=20
>                         di riflessione e di documentazione=20
>=20
>                    per i pi=F9 importanti eventi musicali e culturali.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>                        Maestro d'azzardo
>=20
>                               Giampiero Bigazzi
>=20
>                                        =20
>=20
> Ancora una volta Sonora si cimenta in un gioco di frammenti, tentando di=
=20
> fissare (termine forse non
> proprio adeguato in questo contesto) i primi venticinque anni dell'=20
> attivit=E0 di John Zorn.
>=20
> Abbiamo tentato di esaminare (e documentare) il linguaggio zorniano, la=
=20
> sua vicenda artistica, le sue
> opinioni, il suo porsi nella musica e verso la musica. Un percorso alla=
=20
> ricerca di tracce sul suo
> personalissimo rapporto con lo strumento, la sua voce mediata, e poi la=
=20
> sfida con gli altri arnesi, il filtro
> della registrazione, l'esterno, fino alle sollecitazioni che provengono=
=20
> dal cinema, dalla letteratura, dal
> teatro. I ritrovati collegamenti con la cultura ebraica.
>=20
> La sua =E8 una presenza piena di tensioni, ma i suoi rumori ci sono=20
> apparsi divertimento, libert=E0 presa per
> i capelli. Una collezione di reperti e di scorie. Nessun regalo alla=20
> finzione espressiva, ma un filo diretto
> dalla mente all'aria, con l'irritante e seducente gioco d'imprecazioni,=
=20
> di ferite, di richiami, forse di
> pentimenti. Ci ha affascinato soprattuto la diversit=E0 di Zorn.=20
>=20
> Abbiamo cercato di evitare le buone maniere tipiche del critico d'arte,=
=20
> ma anche l'incoscienza degli
> acc=F2liti, cercando di raccontare una storia musicale complessa e per=20
> certi versi esemplare (anche se di
> difficile imitazione) per l'epoca in cui viviamo. L'intuizione che ne=20
> scaturisce =E8 evidente: l'esercizio
> culturale giusto =E8 mescolare con equilibrio, ma anche con temerariet=E0=
,=20
> elementi diversi, spesso
> appartenenti a mondi lontani. Il loro frantumarsi e ricomporsi in nuove=
=20
> forme =E8 la scommessa dei nostri
> tempi. E Zorn =E8 maestro di questo azzardo. Il suo navigare non parte ma=
i=20
> dal nulla, non lascia fluire il
> discorso in un presente che fa tabula rasa di quello che =E8 esistito=20
> prima: il confronto con il fenomeno
> umano =E8 obliquo, sottile, aperto alle sfumature. Raccogliere frammenti=
=20
> di realt=E0 per poi giocarseli alla
> roulette della vita.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>                                    nel libro:
>=20
>                     Eugene CHADBOURNE - Note sul Disco
>=20
>                             Carla CHITI - John Zorn
>=20
>                     Alberto PEZZOTTA - Velocit=E0 e Citazione
>=20
>              Franco MINGANTI - Musica, Cinema, Letteratura e altro
>=20
>                      Claudio CANAL - Shpil, Klezmer, Shpil
>=20
>                    Walter ROVERE - The Ear of the Beholder
>=20
>                          immagini 1: Private Collection=20
>=20
>                                    writings:
>=20
>              John ZORN - Sound Directions in Fuller's Shock Corridor
>=20
>                             John ZORN - L'Atalante=20
>=20
>                  John ZORN - Jack Smith and Flaming Creatures
>=20
>                                    archivio:
>=20
>              Ela TROYANO - John Zorn's Theatre of Musical Optics
>=20
>       Ruggero BIANCHI - Incontro con John Zorn, New York, 19 marzo 1979
>=20
>                      immagini 2: John ZORN - Music Scores
>=20
>                                     works
>=20
>                                        =20
>=20
>                                  nel compact:
>=20
>                     ZORN & CHADBOURNE: The Viaduct=20
>=20
>             CHADBOURNE, BRADFIELD & ZORN: Welcome West
>=20
>                     ZORN & CHADBORNE: The Double AA=20
>=20
>                 2000 STATUTES: The English Channel (new mix)
>=20
>        THE CHADBOURNES with ZORN: W VA Spec (newly done version)
>=20
>                 _________________________________________=20
>=20
>                          book (144 pag) + compact disc=20
>=20
>                                 italiano e inglese
>=20
>                                   Lit. 32.000
>=20
>                  MATERIALI SONORI EDIZIONI MUSICALI=20
>=20
>                           prenotazioni e informazioni:=20
>=20
>                             MATERIALI SONORI
>=20
>                        ph. 055.943888 - fx. 055.9120370=20
>=20
>                            e-mail: [e-mail]=20
>=20
>=20
> >Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 19:25:43 -0500
> >To: [e-mail]
> >From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Re: Zorn book
> >
> >
> >MEEP! Eric John Lundberg wrote:
> >>A couple of months ago somebody posted a message about a Zorn book=20
> called
> >>Sonora or something. =20
> >It's apparently being put out by somebody associated with the Italian=20
> label
> >Materiali Sonori, but I'll be damned if I can connect with their Web=20
> site
> >(http://www.matson.it should get you at least part of the way there,=20
> but
> >the server sends back a "you aren't authorized to view directory=20
> listings"
> >message, and I haven't been able to guess the name of a single page on=
=20
> the
> >site yet). There are a couple of links to their site from different=20
> search
> >engines, including a few that are artist-specific, but absolutely=20
> nothing
> >that I've found so far. Does anybody know of a URL that actually leads
> >somewhere at the moment?
> >
> >-me
> >
> >
> >-
> >
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dogon A.D.
Date: 07 Dec 1998 00:33:00 -0500

hijk wrote:

> I spoke to Tim Berne last night and he said he's made some headway in
> getting Dogon back out.  It'll have to be a European release and imported to
> the US, but at least it will be available.

Further, before the question gets asked, "Reflections" was not available for
license in a combined package because it is being remastered for release as
"Coon Bid'ness."

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: small stores rule & so do these crispell's CDs
Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:29:47 -0800

i'm not a purist about it and i enjoy the overwhelming stock of towers
NYC as much as the next guy, but do strongly favor independent coffee
shops, record stores, etc.... it's not so much the practical aspect
that i've generally been able to develop relationships and order things
cheaper than i could get them at virgin megastore or b&n, although that
helps. more, i like the personality and spirit of the independents.
independents had to the sense of community -- the best megastores can
do is help to reflect and facilitate it. there's something orewellian
about the biggies -- they may stock stuff for freaks like us zornies,
but it's all with an eye on the bottom line. the independents are more
often doing it for the love of the endeavor.

perhaps i'm a romantic. i do find it common for an artist' biggest
innovations to come earlier in his career. seems like you could breaks
the major ones into three categories: 1. big splash and then
diminishing returns, or refinements of the big splash (see a. braxton's
theory of tradition, reconstruction and stylism, which is basically
thesis-antithesis-synthesis) (i would place harry partch in this
category -- he developed his scales and approach young. the biggest
change later on was that he let go of his distaste for "lyricism,"
which might be huge for someone else but was relatively minor
considering his other innovations). 2. several big splashes. (miles) 3.
cat who develops steadily steadily steadily and blossoms with his
biggest beauty later in his career (tommy flanagan)....

my favorite by marilyn crispell are "gaia" and "nothing every was,
anyway."

np: tom waits, the black rider

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Audience for classical/chamber music (Mr. Drury's question)
Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:33:49 +0200

In Europe Zorn only plays in the big cities also. I think it's a
matter of how much support the local and state authorities spend to
the arts. Holland (where I come from) has a well developped
art-policy which also concerns 'foreign' artists, but still they only
play in the large cities.

> The difference between here
> (North Carolina) and
> Europe, possibly, is that
> there isn't a large enough audience anywhere outside of big cities for
> such programs as the recent Zorn chamber music tour to pay the bills.


Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: Haino/Baron/Cohen
Date: 07 Dec 1998 13:20:47 +0100 (MET)



I saw the Haino/Baron/Cohen album advertised in the latest issue of The Wire
(it doesn't receive a review yet, though). Has anybody here (David Keffer?)
already heard it?

Frankco.





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Ensamble music
Date: 07 Dec 1998 13:57:49 -0300 (GMT-0300)



Hello:
 if anyone want taste some good songs, in mp3 formmat; take a look
at http://inter2.unsl.edu.ar/~gborbon/ensamble.html .   Txs.


 -. Pablo R. .-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Haino/Baron/Cohen
Date: 07 Dec 1998 12:06:06 EST


In a message dated 12/7/98 7:25:30 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<I saw the Haino/Baron/Cohen album advertised in the latest issue of The Wire
(it doesn't receive a review yet, though). Has anybody here (David Keffer?)
already heard it?>>

I've heard it a few times. It's very beautiful, and I'm planning to pick it up
when it's released next month in the US. It's a side of Haino that I haven't
heard on disc yet, something like what he was going for with Dresser and Baron
at Tonic last month, but the record works better than that show did.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #548
Date: 07 Dec 1998 12:45:21 -0500

>From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
>I saw the Haino/Baron/Cohen album advertised in the latest issue of The Wire
>(it doesn't receive a review yet, though). Has anybody here (David Keffer?)
>already heard it?
>Frankco.

I haven't heard it.  The cd was released last month in Japan and Europe.
It won't be released in the U.S. until January.
Purportedly Haino plays acoustic guitar on the AVANT release,
in contrast to the recent Haino/Baron/Dresser show in NYC, where he played
electric guitar.

>From: [e-mail]
>I've heard it a few times. It's very beautiful, and I'm planning to pick
it up
>when it's released next month in the US. It's a side of Haino that I haven't
>heard on disc yet, something like what he was going for with Dresser and
Baron
>at Tonic last month, but the record works better than that show did.
>Jon

Does Haino sing on the AVANT release?  He didn't at the Haino/Baron/Dresser
show.

David K.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Arto Lindsay
Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:31:04 +0100

Hello.
I've recently purchased Lindsay's Noon Chill?
How's the rest of his work compared to this one?

Thanks
Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]> (by way of Simon Hopkins)
Subject: Arto Lindsay
Date: 07 Dec 1998 18:28:19 +0000

I've recently purchased Lindsay's Noon Chill?
How's the rest of his work compared to this one?


you might like to check out our soundfile-accompanied arto piece on the
motion website at

http://motion.state51.co.uk

for what it's worth, i think that noon chill, along with its two
precursors, mundo civilizado and o corpo sutil are among the best albums of
the 90s: full of wonderfully written and played songs. check out the piece,
if you get chance.

simon hopkins



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Cyberschloss at Schloss Chatsworth" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Test: please ignore
Date: 07 Dec 1998 19:48:20 -0000




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nancarrow
Date: 07 Dec 1998 12:10:22 -0800

While perhaps not entirely relevant to the focus of this list, cause his
work has come up in the past, I hope no one minds if I briefly mention that
Mappings, my online radio show, features works by Conlon Nancarrow this
week.

<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index.htm>

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bisk
Date: 07 Dec 1998 15:35:12 +0000

Paul Chavez <[e-mail]> wrote:

> Bisk - anyone heard of this?  What's it like?

Bisk is the name taken by Naohiro Fujikawa, who is Japanese.  He
has three records out on Sub Rosa, not including some stuff that
went on a sampler disc.  The one called Time is probably the one
to start with, though they're all excellent.  It's experimental
electronica, using samples and weird synth noises strung together
at odd intervals.  Heavy on the use of space and time.  Lots of it
has a funky groove, but also plenty of untimely interruptions.
Bisk talks about Takemitsu and Coltrane as influences, though
you'd have to approach the music abstractly to reach those
conclusions yourself.  I like to think of it as soundtrack material
for a cartoon about a robot factory.

-Nils


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stiebler
Date: 06 Dec 1998 16:13:19 -0500

The other day I got a CD by a German composer named Ernstalbrecht
Stiebler called 'Three In One' on the HatArt label and really enjoyed
it. There are three long and focused "soft" compositions which focus on
using a limited set of tones - performed by Eberhard Blum, Frances-Marie
Uitti, Marriane Scroeder, etc. (standard HatArt cast). The most
enjoyable pieces are the two for solo intrument and tape (which acts as
two more of the same instrument). Christian Wolff wrote the liner
notes...

Does anybody know anything about this guy's other work? I know there is
another on HatArt... Anyone familiar with it?

The new Fred Van Hove solo double-disc on Potlach is excellent, btw.

                                        -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Irene Schweitzer
Date: 07 Dec 1998 16:33:37 -0500


     This afternoon, WKCR is playing three hours of Irene Schweitzer's work
     and it's sounding pretty good. I don't really know her stuff very
     well; as near as I can recall, I have her playing on Barry Guy's great
     'Theoria' and a somewhat interesting Intakt release from the late
     80's, 'The Storming of the Winter Palace', probably a few other
     places, but nothing as leader.

     Can any recommend some prime Schweitzer for me?

     Thanks,

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Irene Schweitzer
Date: 07 Dec 1998 20:22:47 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>      Can any recommend some prime Schweitzer for me?

Actually, it's spelled Schweizer. I heartily recommend any of her duets
with drummers, but especially the ones with Han Bennink (Intakt 010) and
Andrew Cyrille (Intakt 008).
Of her solo work, I particularly like Many And One Direction (Intakt
044). I believe there is also one out now with Hamid Drake from the '97
Empty Bottle Festival but I haven't heard it.

I interviewed Irene at the Victoriaville Festival last year for Coda and
she told me she has consciously moved away from playing fast and dense
(which she considers a macho style) in favor of a much lighter, sparser
attack.

James Hale



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn At Knitting Factory With Gary Lucas Friday Night 12/11/98?
Date: 07 Dec 1998 21:36:36 EST

Was listening to Gary Lucas playing live for 2 hours on WFMU last night (he is
still jaw dropping amazing by the way), and they were hinting about guests
sitting in with Gary at his 10th anniversary show at the Knitting Factory
Friday night, 12/11/98.

Anybody know if JZ will be there or not? I'll be there taping in the balcony
if anybody wants to come by and say hi or share a beer.

Robert

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "allen j huotari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: need q's for Hanrahan intvw
Date: 07 Dec 1998 18:58:18 -0000

greetings fellow zornophiles

appy polly loggy for the barely Zorn related post (for the...er...record, JZ
does appear on the original lp release of KH's "Desire Develops An Edge"
plus there was a relatively lengthy Hanrahan thread here just over a month
ago...)

getting on with it then, a friend of mine is a modern jazz reviewer for All
About Jazz
http://www.allaboutjazz.com

he's preparing for an interview in the very near future with Kip Hanrahan

on his behalf, I'm soliciting questions from the group mind

you can either respond to me (OFF-LIST please !) or you can feed your
question straight to him at [e-mail]

thanks in advance for your patience, tolerance, cooperation, and creativity

ajh









-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kronos Quartet - 25 Years
Date: 07 Dec 1998 23:39:36 -0500

At 03:11 PM 12/5/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Anyone heard this box set? comments, reviews, opinions?

Haven't heard it or rather have heard almost all of it before.  The sticker
says that there's about two hours of previously unreleased music (including
the group's first commission, never before recorded) but whether you feel
that's worth the money is another question.
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

UDF?Had(*lfkja 31415926yer 12seven,&&&
you betcha!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stiebler
Date: 08 Dec 1998 00:03:58 -0500



Tom Pratt wrote:

> The other day I got a CD by a German composer named Ernstalbrecht
> Stiebler called 'Three In One' on the HatArt label and really enjoyed
> it. There are three long and focused "soft" compositions which focus on
> using a limited set of tones - performed by Eberhard Blum, Frances-Marie
> Uitti, Marriane Scroeder, etc. (standard HatArt cast). The most
> enjoyable pieces are the two for solo intrument and tape (which acts as
> two more of the same instrument). Christian Wolff wrote the liner
> notes...

Ah, someone else has heard of him! I'd heard some of his work on The
Spinner's 20th Century channel (which is quite good -- I'm listening to
some Phill Niblock on it now) but couldn't find any info about him or
where to find more of his work. HatArt... Hmm...

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: small stores rule & so do these crispell's CDs
Date: 08 Dec 1998 01:21:12 -0500

Martin Wisckol wrote:

> 3. cat who develops steadily steadily steadily and blossoms with his
> biggest beauty later in his career (tommy flanagan)....

Yes, this right here was an example I'd been wondering if anyone would
mention.  There's nothing intrensically "new" about anything Tommy is doing
in 1998, but the sum total of his depth of artistic expression in 1998 is,
I'd argue, at the highest level it's ever been in a career full of
distinction (he played on "Giant Steps," fer Chrissakes...).  Such recent
albums as "Let's (Play the Music of Thad Jones)" and "Sea Changes"
illustrate this quite nicely, and the latest, "Sunset and the Mockingbird"
(recorded live at the Village Vanguard on, I think, his 67th birthday) is a
killer, its title track a fairly rare Duke Ellington tune that, despite its
utter simplicity and relative lack of improvisational elaboration, sends
genuine shivers through me every time I hear it.  And I heard it four of
the five times I went out to hear Tommy in September...

I suppose in the Braxton lingo Tommy Flanagan is a master "stylist,"
someone who masterfully exists and creates within the structures and
languages created by "restructuralists" without adding anything especially
groundbreaking.  (Those looking for an explanation of the Braxton terms
cited should see pg. 162 of Graham Lock's "Forces in Motion," still one of
my very favorite music books).  But Tommy also proves to me beyond any
shadow of a doubt that the world has a place and a need for master
stylists.

Personally I think Zorn's still dwelling amongst the restructuralists, even
if Masada is stylism at a very high level.

Bravo, Martin.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

NP - Brutal Truth, "Sounds of the Animal Kingdom" (*definitely* stylists,
although this one track referencing Sun Ra is really freaking me out right
about now...)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "keik-o wenischi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: reminder.umezu's gigs in nyc(2 more nites)
Date: 08 Dec 1998 01:19:28 PST

sorry for re-posting this as a reminder...

After the very successful nite with Dougie Bowne & Melvin Gibbs (Eyvind
Kang couldn't make it due to his teacher's sudden fall into coma.. but
he's arrived in town now & he'll appear at Roulette for Ikue Mori's
concert w/ world premiere of her new compositions on Dec. 12th, though..
check it out!!!) @tonic on Dec. 5th, Umezu Kazutoki,
composer/arranger/producer/& most of all one of the best sax(& other
reeds) players in Japan, will be performing only 2 more nites at the
following venues;

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Wed. December 9th, 8 & 9:30 p.m. (different 2 sets)
@Knitting Factory/Old Office, 74 Leonard St.(bet. Church Ave. & B'way)
tel. [phone], or http://www.knittingfactory.com
8 p.m. set: Umezu on reeds; Christine Bard on perc; Jim Pugliese on
perc.
9:30 p.m. set: Umezu on reeds; Anthony Coleman on keys.; David Krakauer
on clarinets
admission: $8

Two great improv. sets!
1st. set features double percussion by Bard & Pugliese, who are both
inevitable collaborators for John Zorn's numerous compositions, also
performed in Harry Partch Ensembles, Bang On A Can All-stars, were
members of Marc Ribot's Shrek, and are current members of EasSide
Percussion (Avant), & Soultronix. (Pugliese also is a member of Anthony
Coleman's 'Selfhaters' while Bard also is a member of Trousers &
pitchbrite.)
2nd. set features two masters of radical jewish music & improvisation:
Coleman (Sephardic Tinge & Selfhaters) & Krakauer (Klezmer Madness!).
Since Umezu's heavy addiction to klezmer music is very famous (he has 18
pcs. big klezmer band, 'Betsuni Nanmo Klezmer' in Tokyo!), this trio
will surely hit international klezmer phenomena!!

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Thurs. December 10th, 8 & 9:30 p.m. (2 sets)
@Knitting Factory/Old Office, 74 Leonard St.(bet. Church Ave. & B'way)
tel. [phone], or http://www.knittingfactory.com
both sets: Umezu on reeds; Brad Jones on bass; Marc Ribot on guitar;
Kenny Wollesen on drums
admission: $8

World premiere of all new compositions by Umezu!
This quartet composed of undoubtedly the best players in New York, is
Umezu's brand-new recording project. (needless to mention?! but... Ribot
& Jones of Los Cubanos Postizos, Kenny Wollesen of oh-so-many
bands/recordings; John Schott, John Zorn, Steve Beresford, Tom Waits,
Andrea Parkins, Myra Melford's 'Crush', Wayne Horvitz Quartet, New
Klezmer Trio, etc...) They will record in studio the songs you'll hear
_live_ at this night. But, if you miss this rare chance, you won't hear
them blasting in realtime for a pretty long time!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

visit Umezu's own website at http://www.j-music.com/umezu/index.html

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

end.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?joaqu=EDn_villaverde?=" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Arto Lindsay
Date: 08 Dec 1998 10:19:47 +0100

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE2294.4839BC00
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, I think that the rest of the work of Arto Lindsay doesn't compare =
with this records. (perhaps his group Ambitious Lovers - try Dora by =
Dorival Caymmi).
For me, his records in Brazil, are the most similar thing, try:
    a.. Caetano Veloso: Estrangeiro (produced by Lindsay) with Bill =
Frisell, Nana Vasconcelos, Peter Sherer, Marc Ribot...=20
    b.. Caetano Veloso: Circulado (produced by Lindsay) with Ribot, =
Sakamoto or Butch Morris=20
    c.. Marisa Monte: Mais (produced by Lindsay) with Ribot, Worrell, =
Zorn, Ehrlich, Sakamoto, Carol Emmanuel, Cyro Baptista...
=20
    I've recently purchased Lindsay's Noon Chill?
    How's the rest of his work compared to this one?
   =20
   =20
    you might like to check out our soundfile-accompanied arto piece on =
the
    motion website at
   =20
    http://motion.state51.co.uk
   =20
    for what it's worth, i think that noon chill, along with its two
    precursors, mundo civilizado and o corpo sutil are among the best =
albums of
    the 90s: full of wonderfully written and played songs. check out the =
piece,
    if you get chance.
   =20
    simon hopkins


------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE2294.4839BC00
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Well, I think that the rest of the work of Arto =
Lindsay=20
doesn't compare with this records. (perhaps his group Ambitious Lovers - =
try=20
Dora by Dorival Caymmi).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>For me, his records in Brazil, are =
the most=20
similar thing, try:</FONT></DIV>
<UL>
    <LI><FONT size=3D2>Caetano Veloso: Estrangeiro (produced by Lindsay) =
with Bill=20
    Frisell, Nana Vasconcelos, Peter Sherer, Marc Ribot...</FONT>=20
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Caetano Veloso: Circulado (produced =
by Lindsay)=20
    with Ribot, Sakamoto or Butch Morris</FONT>=20
    <LI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Marisa Monte: =
Mais (produced=20
    by Lindsay) with Ribot, Worrell, Zorn, Ehrlich, Sakamoto, Carol =
Emmanuel,=20
    Cyro Baptista...</FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"></FONT>I've=20
    recently purchased Lindsay's Noon Chill?<BR>How's the rest of his =
work=20
    compared to this one?<BR><BR><BR>you might like to check out our=20
    soundfile-accompanied arto piece on the<BR>motion website =
at<BR><BR><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://motion.state51.co.uk">http://motion.state51.co.uk</A><BR><=
BR>for=20
    what it's worth, i think that noon chill, along with its =
two<BR>precursors,=20
    mundo civilizado and o corpo sutil are among the best albums =
of<BR>the 90s:=20
    full of wonderfully written and played songs. check out the =
piece,<BR>if you=20
    get chance.<BR><BR>simon =
hopkins<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BE2294.4839BC00--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: arto lindsay
Date: 08 Dec 1998 16:07:55 +0100 (MET)

sorry for this question:
a friend of mine is looking for one of his cds called something like
"fields and stream" or something like that. its not available here in
germany. so could anyone who has any idea what i am talking about could
tell me what the name of the record is and where one can find it...

thanx

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: arto lindsay
Date: 08 Dec 1998 08:13:02 -0800


On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:07:55 +0100 (MET)  BJOERN wrote:
>
> sorry for this question:
> a friend of mine is looking for one of his cds called something like
> "fields and stream" or something like that. its not available here in
> germany. so could anyone who has any idea what i am talking about could
> tell me what the name of the record is and where one can find it...

I guess it is the following one:


164 - FIELD AND STREAM: Elliott Sharp - Tectonics

    Recorded and mixed at Studio zOaR, New York City
    Produced by Elliott Sharp

  Elliott Sharp: doubleneck guitarbass, bits and bytes, drum programs, saxo-
  phone; Zeena Parkins (4,6): sampler, little green drone guitar; Frank
  Rothkamm (1): drums 'n bass.

    1997 - Atonal Records (Germany), ACD 3025 (CD)
    1998 - Knitting Factory Records (USA), KFR-227 (CD)


It has just been reissued on Knitting Factory Records.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Irene Schweizer
Date: 08 Dec 1998 11:34:06 -0500

>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 98 16:33:37 -0500
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Irene Schweitzer
>
>     This afternoon, WKCR is playing three hours of Irene Schweitzer's work
>     and it's sounding pretty good. I don't really know her stuff very
>     well; as near as I can recall, I have her playing on Barry Guy's great
>     'Theoria' and a somewhat interesting Intakt release from the late
>     80's, 'The Storming of the Winter Palace', probably a few other
>     places, but nothing as leader.
>
>     Can any recommend some prime Schweitzer for me?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Brian Olewnick

My God, someone that Brian is not familiar with!!!

I haven't heard a lot of her stuff, but do have the Solo Vols 1 and 2 (I
think that's all they are called.  Maybe Solo Piano).  Anyway, I think they
are both great.   She is THE improv pianist who completely stays away from
the Cecil Taylor vein.  Some of the music on the discs I have is closer to
Art Tatum than Taylor.  There are also lots of completely abstract pieces
that have references to nothing I can think of.  You never know where it is
going.  I would recommend both of volumes.
I also have one with Joelle Leandre and Maggie Nicols.  Can't say much
about it, because I have only listened to it once. Of course, that
statement says lots about it on its own.  I'm not a big voice fan, so I
think that is what probably deters me from giving it a second chance.

Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Irene Schweitzer
Date: 08 Dec 1998 17:57:43 +0200

[e-mail] wrote: .

>      Can any recommend some prime Schweitzer for me?

Two really great Schweizer recordings I'd like to recomend everyone:
- Live at Taktlos (Intakt 001/1986) with George Lewis (tb), Maggie Nicols
(voc), Gⁿnter Sommer (perc), J÷elle Leandre (b), Lindsay Cooper (p) and Paul
Lovens (perc) playing in different combinations with IrΦne.
- Overlapping Hands (Free Music Prods. 30/1991), a must-have piano duet with
Marilyn Crispell.

Talking about interesting female pianists, what about Christine Wodraska? Her
CD "Vertical" is one of my favs (At the spanish internet jazz group, we have
been talking a lot  about her recently...)

Ciao
Francisco Fonz-GarcΘs



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nathalie claeys <[e-mail]>
Subject: Arto and DNA
Date: 08 Dec 1998 21:41:18 +0200

>I've recently purchased Lindsay's Noon Chill?

A while ago I managed to buy the reissued No New York record in Japan. Arto
is on this record with his band DNA. Although I don't know if it'll be
released in Europe or the States, I can definitely recommend it. One of the
best records I bought this year...

Nathalie

np Neneh Cherry "raw like sushi"



Beam me up, Scotty!




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Arto and DNA
Date: 08 Dec 1998 15:55:41 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, nathalie claeys wrote:

> A while ago I managed to buy the reissued No New York record in Japan. Arto
> is on this record with his band DNA. Although I don't know if it'll be
> released in Europe or the States, I can definitely recommend it. One of the
> best records I bought this year...

that is evidently some kind of bootleg.  according to the guys in mars,
the master tapes for "no new york" were lost when antilles went out of
business.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Robert Beck Memorial Cinema -- December
Date: 08 Dec 1998 18:00:10 -0500

This was posted on the experimental film mailing list.  I clipped the
non-Zornish part of the schedule.  LT


>THE ROBERT BECK MEMORIAL CINEMA PRESENTS
>****************************************
>
>DECEMBER 1998
>
>(A Little Late..)
>
>DECEMBER 22 -- SATYRICON AND OTHER WORKS
>David Shea and Lisa Di Lillo present SATYRICON, a live performance for solo
>sampler and video.  Loosely based on the ancient Roman novel, as well as
>Fellini's film version, this performance follows the fragmented narrative
>structure of the novel/film.  Similar in approach to its source, the
>music/video combines & recontextualizes various genres, navigating through
>satire, ritual, excessive sentimentality and societal decay.
>All Shows on Tuesday nights at 9pm
>at Collective Unconscious, 145 Ludlow, NYC
>
>$3-5 admission
>
>contact:
>Brian Frye
>[phone]
>Cooper Station Box 499
>NY, NY 10276-0499

Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

UDF?Had(*lfkja 31415926yer 12seven,&&&
you betcha!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn Will Be At Knitting Factory With Gary Lucas Friday Night 12/11/98
Date: 08 Dec 1998 21:48:59 EST

In a message dated 12/8/98 1:36:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, I asked:

>  Was listening to Gary Lucas playing live for 2 hours on WFMU last night (he
>  is
>  still jaw dropping amazing by the way), and they were hinting about guests
>  sitting in with Gary at his 10th anniversary show at the Knitting Factory
>  Friday night, 12/11/98.
>
>  Anybody know if JZ will be there or not? I'll be there taping in the
balcony
>  if anybody wants to come by and say hi or share a beer.

CONFIRMED. JZ will show up and play with Gary for a bit Friday night. See you
there! Bring your tape recorders if you'd like a patch.

Robert

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Irene Schweitzer
Date: 08 Dec 1998 22:24:27 EST

[e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>      Can any recommend some prime Schweitzer for me?

I'll recommend one that is not mentioned too often-  _The Early Tapes_ on FMP.
It features a trio of Schweizer along with Guru Guru's rhythm section of Ulli
Trepte on bass and Mani Neumeier on drums.  Acoustic psych-jazz that is unlike
anything I can immediately think of.

Can't say if FMP has reissued this on CD yet.  I *can* say that Schweizer
never sounded like this again.

spinning: Hendrix- Band of Gypsys

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Arto Lindsay
Date: 08 Dec 1998 22:24:29 EST

In a message dated 12/8/98 4:23:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, j-
[e-mail] writes:

> Well, I think that the rest of the work of Arto Lindsay doesn't compare with
> this records. (perhaps his group Ambitious Lovers - try Dora by Dorival
> Caymmi).
>  For me, his records in Brazil, are the most similar thing, try:
>      a.. Caetano Veloso: Estrangeiro (produced by Lindsay) with Bill
Frisell,
> Nana Vasconcelos, Peter Sherer, Marc Ribot...
>      b.. Caetano Veloso: Circulado (produced by Lindsay) with Ribot,
Sakamoto
> or Butch Morris
>      c.. Marisa Monte: Mais (produced by Lindsay) with Ribot, Worrell, Zorn,
> Ehrlich, Sakamoto, Carol Emmanuel, Cyro Baptista...

Since we're talking about artists from Brasil, can anyone tell me if Gilberto
Gil's first two LPs have been re-issued on CD yet?  I don't know the titles,
but i've heard that they are absolutely stunning works...

spinning: Hendrix- Band of Gypsys

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Penguin Guide to Jazz
Date: 09 Dec 1998 00:17:17 EST

anyone who can't wait for the new fourth edition to make its way to the US
(Barnes and Noble has it slated for domestic release next March) can order it
from Amazon's UK site, www.amazon.co.uk. It costs $35 including shipping, and
for me it was worth the extra ten or twelve bucks to have it four months
early. anyway, thought some of you might be interested.

Jon, whose left speaker blew out and who is currently listening to the Art
Ensemble's Fanfare For The Warriors in mono through one speaker. and, yes,
it's still great.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hemphill/ Oliver Lake
Date: 09 Dec 1998 02:38:26 -0500 (EST)

> > I spoke to Tim Berne last night and he said he's made some headway in
> > getting Dogon back out.  It'll have to be a European release and imported to
> > the US, but at least it will be available.
>
> Further, before the question gets asked, "Reflections" was not available for
> license in a combined package because it is being remastered for release as
> "Coon Bid'ness."

Can we still ask - when might it come out, what label, and did they get
the orig. masters?

Also, I got Oliver Lake's _Heavy Spirits_ which is from around the same
time and another product of the DA reissue-and-cut-out series, but its
definately worth getting at the price and before its gone.  The sound is
actually pretty good, they spell the names right, its cheap ($7-8), and
its a pretty great LP if you like anything from Ornette to Tim Berne.
Just in case anyone's interested...

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: John Zorn won on Jeopardy tonight
Date: 09 Dec 1998 01:40:00 -0600

Not THE John Zorn, just a school-teacher from LA.  Still, it amused me at
the time.

By the way, has anyone ordered anything from Forced Exposure recently (or
ever)?  I ordered some stuff almost a month ago and other than the initial
confirmation that the order had been placed, I haven't heard anything at
all from them, even after I sent more follow-up e-mails.

Just curious to see if they are always this bad at customer service or if
I'm just lucky.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tony Reif <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Amnesty Int'l human rights pledge
Date: 09 Dec 1998 00:21:49 -0800 (PST)

To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights,  Amnesty International is collecting signatures for a pledge to
support this very important United Nations Declaration.

Amnesty already has 3 million signatures (real and virtual) worldwide, and
wants 8 million (which would be 1% of the world's population). The UN
Secretary General has already agreed to receive the pledge as a tangible
statement of the people of the world's commitment to an international
agenda of human rights.

The most simple way to add your name to the pledge is to
Send an email to: [e-mail]
Put YOUR NAME in the SUBJECT and the following text in the message:

"I support the rights and freedoms in the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights for all people, everywhere."

Forward this message to as many people as you can.

Soren Ibsen
Teknisk konservator
NTNU-UBiT

Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Forced Exposure
Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:45:22 +1100

> By the way, has anyone ordered anything from Forced Exposure recently (or
> ever)?  I ordered some stuff almost a month ago and other than the
initial
> confirmation that the order had been placed, I haven't heard anything at
> all from them, even after I sent more follow-up e-mails.
>
> Just curious to see if they are always this bad at customer service or if
> I'm just lucky.

I ordered something a couple of months ago and never got any reply at all.
Luckily I didn't lose any money.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Forced Exposure
Date: 09 Dec 1998 16:15:09 EST

In a message dated 12/9/98 6:58:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< > By the way, has anyone ordered anything from Forced Exposure recently (or
 > ever)?  I ordered some stuff almost a month ago and other than the
 initial
 > confirmation that the order had been placed, I haven't heard anything at
 > all from them, even after I sent more follow-up e-mails.
 >
 > Just curious to see if they are always this bad at customer service or if
 > I'm just lucky.

 I ordered something a couple of months ago and never got any reply at all.
 Luckily I didn't lose any money. >>

I did an order with them like a year ago and it took only three weeks. Maybe
there just under staffed at the moment?

Chad

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Matthew Colonnese)
Subject: Re: Forced Exposure
Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:02:32 -0500


At the risk of trying everyone's patience, I have to stick up for FE and
note I've made more orders than I care to admit and have always gotten them
promptly with little fuss.  They even tracked me down once from old records
to confirm a garbled address.




>In a message dated 12/9/98 6:58:49 AM Mountain Standard Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< > By the way, has anyone ordered anything from Forced Exposure recently (or
> > ever)?  I ordered some stuff almost a month ago and other than the
> initial
> > confirmation that the order had been placed, I haven't heard anything at
> > all from them, even after I sent more follow-up e-mails.
> >
> > Just curious to see if they are always this bad at customer service or if
> > I'm just lucky.
>
> I ordered something a couple of months ago and never got any reply at all.
> Luckily I didn't lose any money. >>
>
>I did an order with them like a year ago and it took only three weeks. Maybe
>there just under staffed at the moment?
>
>Chad
>
>-


------
"Finally, a thing-a-ma-giggy that would bring people together...even if it
kept them apart, spatially."



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Date: 10 Dec 1998 16:52:25 -0800

    A friend of mine recently loaned me his copy of "Black Saint and the
Sinner Lady".  After a few listenings, I am determined to embark upon a
thorough exploration of the classical jazz canon (this is an outsider's
designation, please be gentle).  I would welcome comments on this piece as
well as recommendations on other material. Thank you.
            Christian

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn on dvd
Date: 11 Dec 1998 01:20:18 EST

well, sort of. i was checking out upcoming releases when i noticed that
"branded to kill" was slated for release in feb. one of the special features
listed is a "vintage Japanese film ephemera from the collection of John Zorn."
i thought it was kinda cool.

check it out:
http://www.dvdreview.com/movies/FilmReleases.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: What's going on?
Date: 11 Dec 1998 04:29:55 EST

All of a sudden, this list has gone silent for the past few days...

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Umezu
Date: 11 Dec 1998 08:53:39 -0500


     Sorry, I forget who posted the original annoucement of Umezu's gig at
     the Knitting Factory but, whoever it was, thanks very much. I caught
     his new quartet last night (the first time I've ever heard his music)
     and was quite impressed. The band was Kazutoki Umezu on reeds, Ribot
     on guitar, Brad Jones on bass and Kenny Wolleson drumming. The five
     pieces ranged widely: a fierce post-AACM free-bopper, a quirky march,
     a quiet, noirish dirge, a tune possibly modeled after Coltrane's
     'Spiritual' with extended technique on soprano, and ended with a
     glorious, almost out-of-control calypso. Umezu showed fine command and
     humor and Ribot just gets better. For comparison purposes, you might
     think of him as the Japanese Carlo Actis Dato.

     Highly recommended if he ever hits your area.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Date: 11 Dec 1998 15:31:22 +0100

> A friend of mine recently loaned me his copy of "Black Saint and the
>Sinner Lady".  After a few listenings, I am determined to embark upon a
>thorough exploration of the classical jazz canon (this is an outsider's
>designation, please be gentle).  I would welcome comments on this piece as
>well as recommendations on other material. Thank you.


Black Saint and the Sinner Lady...
I always though of Mingus as this happy person always making "groovy" big
band jazz. He totally surprized me with this album. I had heard "Mingus *5".
"New Tijuana Moods" and "Blues and Roots" all of them with really hapy
songs. "The Black Saint..." however, is a really sad recording. Wonderfully
sad.
As for recommendations, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by classical
jazz, but go with Mingus. He's really something.

Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mingus - classical jazz
Date: 11 Dec 1998 11:47:34 -0800

I have refered to Mingus music as classical jazz and not just jazz. The
real distinction is that most of his comosition are his own
vision/expression, the voice of the individual artists making up the band
is somewhat compromised. There are exceptions of course. A truly great read
is Mingus' autobiography, Beneath the Underdog.

One of my favorite recordings is the trio with Duke and Max Roach, Money
Jungle.

JT

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Date: 11 Dec 1998 09:08:15 PST

I really don't have a set list, but some "classic"(al) jazz records that
seem to me to be worth at least several listens include Ornette
Coleman's SHAPE OF JAZZ TO COME; Miles Davis's ESP, COMPLETE CONCERT
1964, ROUND ABOUT MIDNIGHT, and SKETCHES OF SPAIN; John Coltrane's
CRESCENT, SUNSHIP, PLAYS THE BLUES, and GIANT STEPS, and A LOVE SUPREME
among others (hard to go wrong w/Trane); Art Blakey's FREE FOR ALL;
Mingus' AH UM and PITHECANTHROPUS ERECTUS.  Geez, there are so many.  I
hope this doesn't start a top-thirty list epidemic,

--s

>From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:52:25 -0800
>
>    A friend of mine recently loaned me his copy of "Black Saint and the
>Sinner Lady".  After a few listenings, I am determined to embark upon a
>thorough exploration of the classical jazz canon (this is an outsider's
>designation, please be gentle).  I would welcome comments on this piece
as
>well as recommendations on other material. Thank you.
>            Christian
>
>-
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Date: 11 Dec 1998 17:44:46 -0800 (PST)

A few that I keep coming back to:
The Quintet (Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Mingus, Max Roach, & I
believe Bud Powell) -- Jazz at Massey Hall

Duke Ellington & His Orchestra @ Newport

Thelonious Monk -- Monk's Dream

& this cassette on LaserLight of Charlie Christian, Monk, Gillespie &
a host of others at some little NYC club ca. 1938, sound quality's
hardly great, but it still kicks ass (don't have it w/ me, can't
recall the title)

eric martens

---Scott Handley <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> I really don't have a set list, but some "classic"(al) jazz records
that
> seem to me to be worth at least several listens include Ornette
> Coleman's SHAPE OF JAZZ TO COME; Miles Davis's ESP, COMPLETE CONCERT
> 1964, ROUND ABOUT MIDNIGHT, and SKETCHES OF SPAIN; John Coltrane's
> CRESCENT, SUNSHIP, PLAYS THE BLUES, and GIANT STEPS, and A LOVE
SUPREME
> among others (hard to go wrong w/Trane); Art Blakey's FREE FOR ALL;
> Mingus' AH UM and PITHECANTHROPUS ERECTUS.  Geez, there are so many.
 I
> hope this doesn't start a top-thirty list epidemic,
>
> --s
>
> >From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Subject: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
> >Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:52:25 -0800
> >
> >    A friend of mine recently loaned me his copy of "Black Saint and the
> >Sinner Lady".  After a few listenings, I am determined to embark
upon a
> >thorough exploration of the classical jazz canon (this is an
outsider's
> >designation, please be gentle).  I would welcome comments on this
piece
> as
> >well as recommendations on other material. Thank you.
> >            Christian
> >
> >-
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> -
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Hollo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Forced Exposure
Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:56:34 +1100

I ordered 4 items from them recently, including Masada 10 (which hasn't
surfaced in Australia yet that I know of... it's great! 9's a bit better
of the recent stuff still though) and David Krakauer's Klezmer Madness!
(the original CD, not the Klezmer, NY one that came out recently).

I emailed them about 5 or 6 days later asking whether it had been sent,
and was told they were waiting on Masada 10 restock. And about the same
time later again, after I inquired about it again I Was told it was
being sent out that day - and it was.
Got it in the usual time it takes to Australia from the USA, no
problems.

They have a lot of stuff in their catalogue, and have been helpful when
I've written, always replying. The only thing I guess is that they don't
let you know anything about the order until all the stock's there and
it's sent, but fair enough - it's hard to write to all these people all
the time - they're about as un-mainstream as you can get and probably
don't have tonnes of staff.

There you go - a positive Forced Exposure experience for y'all.
Best,
Peter.
--
Peter Hollo  [e-mail]  http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
           FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
                http://www.fourplay.com.au
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dominique Leone" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Forced Exposure
Date: 12 Dec 1998 07:19:31 PST

You might try emailing them and asking for the UPS tracking number, if
they've mailed your items.  I ordered some stuff a few weeks ago, and my
stuff got misrouted by UPS, so it took almost a month to get to me.

BTW, if anyone's interested in Tatsuya Yoshida, could you please email
me about his solo CD "A Million Years," i.e., what it sounds like?

Dominique



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Forced Exposure
Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:07:51 -0600

At 04:56 PM 12/12/98 +1100, you wrote:
>
>I emailed them about 5 or 6 days later asking whether it had been sent,
>and was told they were waiting on Masada 10 restock. And about the same
>time later again, after I inquired about it again I Was told it was
>being sent out that day - and it was.
>Got it in the usual time it takes to Australia from the USA, no
>problems.
>

Well, it looks like I'm just special.  I've e-mailed them several times
with absolutely no response whatsoever.  Unless the address they provide
for e-mails isn't correct, I'd say they were ignoring me.  I've even asked
them if I could break the order up and have them ship anything that is in
stock right away, and no response.  I wish they had a phone number so I
could actually talk to a human being (assuming they have any staff at all).
 I think my next attempt will be to fax them something.






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "ADM" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Just a Glass of Wine
Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:03:38 -0800

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE25C7.73F4DF60
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi...
This shoots quite a bit off topic but I need a chart (or at least an mp3 =
to transcribe from) of the traditional klezmer song "Just a Glass of =
Wine".  If anyone could help me, it'd be much appreciated.  Reply =
privately.

-Aaron

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE25C7.73F4DF60
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This shoots quite a bit off topic but I need a chart =
(or at=20
least an mp3 to transcribe from) of the traditional klezmer song =
"Just a=20
Glass of Wine".  If anyone could help me, it'd be much=20
appreciated.  Reply privately.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>-Aaron</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE25C7.73F4DF60--


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: more classic jazz: hard bop
Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:06:46 PST

For those who are "new" to classic jazz, I think of hard bop as the West
Coast gangsta to the early-eighties East Coast rap of Forties bebop.  I
think of there being more blues "feeling" in the CONTENT, whereas bebop
refracted its own abstraction through an already seriously perverted
blues FRAMEWORK (the substituted changes, etc.).  Just one more opinion,
but...

I sure like:
Hank Mobley: SOUL STATION; A SLICE OFF THE TOP
Cannonball Adderley: SOMETHIN' ELSE!; CANNONBALL TAKES CHARGE (so
funky)
Trane: BLUE TRANE; GIANT STEPS
Anything by Wynton Kelly, who is a badass
Wes Montgomery, up to but not including most of the CTI stuff (HALF NOTE
excluded---that's fine)

I haven't been listeing to much jazz lately.  Strange...

I'd welcome suggestions by others.  Anyone feel like confessing to
having bought the Mobley box on Mosaic?

--s

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M. van Santen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Looking for interviews
Date: 13 Dec 1998 00:07:41 +0100

I'm looking for interviews with or articles by Zorn. Does anyone know
any that are on the net, or does anyone have some as textfile that they
would like to send me?

Thanx,
Martyn



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lewis/Turetsky
Date: 11 Dec 1998 21:32:42 -0500

There's a brand spankin' new disc of duets between trombonist George
Lewis and contrabassist Bertram Turetsky on Incus called
'Conversations'. This could be bad-ass! Anyone heard it?

                                        -Tom Pratt




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Lewis/Turetsky
Date: 13 Dec 1998 00:34:41 EST


In a message dated 12/12/98 9:51:10 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<There's a brand spankin' new disc of duets between trombonist George
Lewis and contrabassist Bertram Turetsky on Incus called
'Conversations'. This could be bad-ass! Anyone heard it?>>

I don't think it actually arrives in US stores until Monday or Tuesday. I
wonder if this qualifies as part of the uniformly superb "Guitar/Wind
Instrument" series Incus has been doing over the last couple of years
(Zorn/Chadbourne, Roger Smith/Neil Metcalfe, Stefan Jaworzyn/Alan Wilkinson
(my personal fave of the bunch), Kaiser/Oswald, and Zorn/Frith).

Saw a really nice concert this past Friday night in NYC, Joseph Jarman/Leroy
Jenkins/Myra Melford, in a loft space called Inhouse just south of Canal St.
It's pianist David Lopato's home, and the concert is literally in his living
room, complete with easy chairs, a row of Disney videotapes on the wall, and
his son tinkering on the piano before the show. the concert was all
compositions, some by each performer. Melford actually played harmonium about
half the time, which I'd never seen anyone do before. my favorite two pieces
over the two hour-long sets were a long, achingly beautiful duet between
Jenkins' violin and Melford's harmonium, and a transcription Melford had done
of a piece by Armenian composer/duduk virtuoso Djivan Gasparyan, peformed by
her harmonium, Jenkins, and Jarman on percussion. all in all, a very relaxing
evening.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Two nights, two lofts, two chamber groups - Part 1
Date: 13 Dec 1998 01:12:36 -0500

Friday, December 11 - Equal Interest at InHouse

When I arrived at work Friday morning, I had no plans for musicking that
evening.  Happily, a glance at the New York Times revealed an unmissable
show: Equal Interest at InHouse.

If that didn't register on your map, don't fret.  You're far from alone.

Equal Interest is a cooperative trio made up of two titans of
avant-garde jazz, Joseph Jarman and Leroy Jenkins, with one of the more
gifted, versatile and unsung pianists to come up through the Knitting
Factory scene, Myra Melford.  And InHouse is one of downtown's better
kept secrets: pianist David Lopato's loft on Greenwich St. is one of the
most cozy and intimate spaces in town.  You literally get a concert in
someone's living room.  It's both spacious and cozy.  Lopato is a brave
soul to invite strangers into his home to check out his record
collection while waiting for the music to commence.  The shows he
presents do not get advertised: you only hear by word-of-mouth or by
being on the mailing list (and I'd somehow fallen off).  God bless Ben
Ratliff for listing this show in the Friday Times.

I'd missed Equal Interest at the Texaco Festival in '97, so I leapt at
the chance to hear them here.  Jon Abbey was the only other Z-lister
present to my knowledge.  And what of the music, you ask?  Very special
indeed.  Jon and I agreed afterwards that reportage would be difficult,
since we'd not taken notes, but here goes...

Equal Interest features jazz musicians and has jazz elements but is not
really a jazz group.  It is a chamber trio.  The music is largely
composed, though there is apparently ample room for improvisation.  At
the set break Jon and I both surmised the compositions to have been all
Myra's, but at intermission I asked her and she said they had played
pieces by all three band members.  I paid a bit more attention in the
second half to try to pin down which pieces were from which player, but
it remained difficult.  There was certainly a group ethos at work here.

The pieces I assume to have been by Leroy were the more atonal and
rigorous "classical" pieces, in which the three players, while moving in
the same direction, were often taking very individual routes to get to
the destination.  Lines coincided in very odd ways at times, and only
the odd blue notes and repeated riffs in the piano part reminded the
listener that this music was being played by so-called jazz musicians.

Other pieces seemed more ethereal and less rigorous - I presume these to
have been the work of Jarman and Melford.  In particular, the pieces
where Melford sat on the floor playing harmonium I took to be her work,
especially in a beautiful piece in which she played what sounded like
Pakistani riffs (think Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan) while Jenkins and Jarman
played lovely modal melodies above (Jenkins's violin parts sounding a
great deal like Ralph Vaughan Williams's "The Lark Ascending" oddly
enough).  Another such piece, which featured Jarman on tamborine
accompanying some lovely and exotic-sounding duo playing from Melford
and Jenkins, was in fact Melford's transcription of a piece by the
Armenian duduk player Gasparyan.

Like I said, I wasn't taking notes, so I can't report on a great number
of specifics.  I can, however, report that it was an evening of
extremely sensitive music-making, with Jarman's power remaining
undiminished if less than emphatic in this setting, Jenkins's sometimes
wayward intonation more than offset by his tremendous lyricism, and
Melford's piano playing always intelligent and interesting.  Her pianism
reflects her classical training, as seldom if ever did she fall into the
"right hand leads, left hand comps" routine, employing instead
independent lines and well-chosen clusters and stabs.  And on harmonium
she sounds incredibly idiomatic, at least to these ears.

Two highlights that continue to ring in my ears were a magnificent duo
for harmonium and viola, unmarred even when Leroy bumped his head on his
microphone several times (was amplification really necessary in such an
intimate venue?  This was, after all, chamber music...) and the
exquisite closing trio for flute, violin and piano, a piece of such
limpid beauty as to bring Debussy to mind, although I also wondered
whether I'd be as spellbound if exactly the same piece were being played
by George Winston, Darol Anger and [insert New Age flute player's name
here].  The audience was held rapt, hanging on every note.

Equal Interest has not yet issued a recording (although Melford does
appear on the Jarman/Jenkins CD released earlier this year), but they
should.  It's lovely and original music.  And at the end of the evening
Myra said that her next CD by her band The Same River, Twice (Chris
Speed, Dave Douglas, Erik Friedlander, Mike Sarin) should be in stores
in February, on Arabesque Records, and that some of the music heard
tonight would be on that record.  Can't hardly wait.

Tomorrow's installment: Ikue Mori at Roulette, Saturday, Dec. 12
Tomorrow's musicking: Joe Morris Quartet at the Knitting Factory

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/ssmith36

NP - John Hollenbeck's Claudia Quintet - Limp Mint (CD-R demo) - best
goddamn unsigned band in the city, if you ask me...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gary Lucas (marginal Zorn content)
Date: 13 Dec 1998 09:12:27 -0500

You see the concert-going problems we Nyers face. While Steve and Jon
were enjoying Jarman/Jenkins/Melford on Friday, I went down to what I
expected to be the early show of Gary Lucas at the Knit. Turned into a
one show, four-hour plus marathon of all things Lucasian.

The evening's structure was a) Lucas solo for over an hour b) a single
duet with a female singer (last name Gruber, I think) c) six songs with
peter Stampfel (you haven't lived 'til you've heard these guy's rousing
version of 'Ring of Fire'!) d) a duo with ex-Gods and Monsters vocalist
Ricky Barrone e) a load of stuff from 'Busy Being Born' with singers
Laryy and Ken (enormous crowd favorites), Greg Cohen, Jonathan Kane and
JZ sitting in on two pieces and f) the current incarnation of Gods and
Monsters with Ernie Brooks and Jonathan Kane.

Overall, it was a great deal of fun, Lucas exhibiting his usual witty,
self-deprecating stage patter as well as his astonishing facility with
guitars and multiple effects units. To give an idea of the range of
material performed (aside from many of his own compositions), covers
included: 'Sunrise, Sunset', the theme from 'Teletubbies', 'Jack
Johnson', Wagner's 'Tanheuser Overture', a Percy Grainger piece, the
theme from 'Psycho', Dollar Brand's 'Bra Joe from Kilimanjaro' (!) and
'Astronomy Domine' and many, many more.

Generally wonderful stuff. Should Mr. Lucas make it into your neck of
the woods, check him out.

BTW, I'd never heard Stampfel before (or his work with Holy Modal
Rounders). As his enthusiasm was one of the highlights of the evening,
I'm a bit curious to learn more. Any recommendations?

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francesco Martinelli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: I: Lewis/Turetsky
Date: 13 Dec 1998 20:26:23 +0100


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Francesco Martinelli <[e-mail]>
A: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Data: domenica 13 dicembre 1998 10.24
Oggetto: R: Lewis/Turetsky


>i was listening to it while downloading the mail, it being arrived with the
>latest batch from Incus and related baileyan activities, including another
>new vinyl with Pat Thomas and Steve Noble (the latest on turntables,
>appropriately enough).
>The Conversation Cd is a joy - no electronics, just a very intense, full of
>humour series of conversations between two players that share the taste for
>the occasional quotation or melodic strain juxtaposed to textural
>improvisation, with Turetzky using vocal sounds, or purely rhythmical
>things. Turetzky is very jazzy at times, with a lovely pizzicato timbre,
and
>George can usually be too, so together sometime they give an odd impression
>of a traditional jazz band, of course for a few seconds in the course of
the
>improvisation (After Dark, track n. 2). Often the pieces give a feeling of
>balance, and they don't sound like extracts from longer improvisation,
>Company-style. In Blues for Lester B. they begin to play opposite things -
a
>jazz trombone solo superimposed to a stately bowed chorale - and then
>proceed to switch roles a few times before turning back to the "theme" for
>the last minute. J7+P3 is very percussive and fragmented, kissing and vocal
>sounds from the trombone, bass hit with the wood of the bow or sticks; in
>the middle of the piece one understand what George means in the straight,
>warm liner notes with "grabo onto (a sound) as a life preserver to save you
>from getting smoked right out of the room".
>The titles are humorous too - I'd guess North Country Diatribe has a
Cadence
>reference - while The Ecumenical Blues, the closing track, is a wonderful
>unfolding exploration of long notes, with the trombone going gutbucket at
>the end over a kaleidoscope of bass sounds.
>Badass sounds just right.
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Inge_=D8lmheim?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ikue Mori live at Roulette
Date: 13 Dec 1998 21:55:17 +0100 (MET)

Was wondering if somebody who was at the Ikue Mori gig at Roulette last
night (or caught the live net feed) would care to describe the event.
I had trouble connecting to the live.ram link at the Roulette site and
would really appreciate word on this performance. Thanks.

By the way, got a mail from Jim Staley today and he mentioned Ikue Mori's
plans to record this piece in the near future (to appear on Einstein,
Tzadik or Avant). Anyone?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Date: 13 Dec 1998 20:39:26 -0500 (EST)

On Mingus Moves, there are a couple of tunes literally entiotled "Cannon"

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:

>     A friend of mine recently loaned me his copy of "Black Saint and the
> Sinner Lady".  After a few listenings, I am determined to embark upon a
> thorough exploration of the classical jazz canon (this is an outsider's
> designation, please be gentle).  I would welcome comments on this piece as
> well as recommendations on other material. Thank you.
>             Christian
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Two Nights, two lofts, two chamber groups - Part 2
Date: 14 Dec 1998 01:01:43 -0500

Saturday, December 12 - Ikue Mori at Roulette

A crowd of well over the 75-seat capacity was onhand for the premiere of
Ikue Mori's newest piece, "One Hundred Aspects of the Moon" based on
Yoshitoshi.  I wish I could explain what that meant exactly, but the
program notes handed out for the evening gave only the names of the
fifteen sections and the players: vocalist Theo Bleckmann (rather than
the previously announced Mike Patton, who, I was told, was in the studio
beginning the new Mr. Bungle record), Anthony Coleman on piano and
organ, violinist Eyvind Kang, cellist Erik Friedlander, Kato Hideki on
acoustic and electric bass, and Mori.

Plenty of downtown luminaries were onhand for the concert, adding to the
general buzz in the room.  By showtime every seat was filled and the
crowd spilled into the back of the room.

The piece began with long, droning tones from the string players and
organ, while Mori sent little plinks and plunks shimmering like
raindrops from speaker to speaker.  Bleckmann intoned quietly and
wordlessly, murmuring and burbling.

A second section began with a duo for bass and voice, soon set against
an almost minimalist classical piano trio of Coleman, a hirstute and
fedora-wearing Kang, and Friedlander.  Their parts were made up of short
rhythmic melodies, repeated insistently.  Mori eventually entered with a
percussive clatter that disrupted the other players.  A third section
was brief and consisted of simple ascending and descending lines in the
piano trio and bass.

The fourth section began with a recited vocal part by Bleckmann,
sounding much like a lover's breakup letter.  At the end of the speech,
the minimal melodic motifs returned in the piano trio.  Eventually Mori
began a percussive racket on her machines, which gradually spread like a
virus from stage left (Mori) to stage right (Coleman), ending in chaotic
noise from all players.  This sent Beckmann into a Tourette's-like vocal
spasm which ended the section.

A further minimalist piano trio section led to an actual song section
sung by Bleckmann.  I was not able to discern many of the lyrics,
however... a recording will serve this purpose better (and I was glad to
read the message of the poster who said that Jim Staley reported this
piece was being recorded).  At this point in the piece the "movements"
became less discrete, with each flowing into the next without obvious
pause.

Wordless vocalese began the next section, a movement that musically
resembled a '60s pop instrumental, with a distorted Kang solo that
sounded much like an electric guitar.  The organ part in this section
was particularly appealing, as well.  The vocal part suddenly became a
very obvious simulation of coitus and orgasm, leading to snickers of
amusement from the crowd.

The penultimate section of the piece featured all players playing lines
that seemed to be moving in uneven but parallel lines... how
insufficient words can be to describe the actuality of the musical
experience.  A final section created a quiet repose, like the beginning
resembling the patter of raindrops.

Overall impression:  a fine new addition to the downtown ouevre, a piece
of diverse parts  somehow adding up to a very organic whole.  I'd have
appreciated a more complete program note to give me more context for the
music I was hearing, but lacking that, I have to report an intriguing
and ultimately satisfying listening experience.  Like the best of the
so-called downtown music scene, "One Hundred Aspects of the Moon" united
numerous aspects of various disparate musical styles and genres into a
singular and provocative piece.

Oddly, one other impression I carried away with me was that the
least-heard instrumental voice was that of Mori herself.  While I was
most impressed with the compositional ingenuity, I have to admit that I
felt a decided lack of one of downtown's most unique and accomplished
instrumental voices.  But all of the other players were remarkable
indeed.  And vocalist Theo Bleckmann, whom I'd never heard in a live
setting before, acquitted himself with panache in a wide variety of
vocals challenges, especially given that much of this music did indeed
sound like it was written specifically for Mike Patton.

A timely reminder of just why I so love this downtown music scene.  Can
anybody clue me in on Yoshitoshi?

Tomorrow's musicking: The Maria Schneider Jazz Orchestra at the Village
Vanguard

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/ssmith36

NP - Star Trek - The Next Generation - "Q Who?" (the first Borg episode)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Forced Exposure
Date: 14 Dec 1998 09:40:40 -0500 (EST)

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Peter Hollo wrote:

> There you go - a positive Forced Exposure experience for y'all.

actually, i order from forced exposure almost once a month and the only
time i've ever had trouble was around the holidays.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Philly shows? (No Zorn Content, Unless I'm really lucky)
Date: 14 Dec 1998 08:17:26 -0700

I'm going to be in Philadelphia Fri Dec. 18 - Mon Dec. 21. Any good music I
need to hear that weekend? You can email me privately. Thanx.

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: PSyCHo
Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:04:04 -0800

I saw the movie a few days ago. During the final credits I was admiring the
interesting musical accompanyment when I read in the credits that the score
was directed by Wayne Horvitz and preformed by Bill Frisell (and others??)
Has anyone purchased this soundtrack??

JT

That loft session sounded really interesting, as did roulette. Where can I
go to get more of the downtown scene other than Tonic, KF, alt.coffee, and
downtown music gallery?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Troy Whitfield <[e-mail]>
Subject: Antilles/Power Tools
Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:48:38 -0500

Brent Burton <[e-mail]> wrote:

> that is evidently some kind of bootleg.  according to the guys
> in mars, the master tapes for "no new york" were lost when
> antilles went out of business.

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know how the master tapes of
Power Tools' "Strange Meeting" fared?  Will it ever be reissued?

Power Tools is Bill Frisell, Ronald Shannon Jackson and Melvin Gibbs.
As far as I know, they only put out this one record in 1987 - on
Antilles.

Troy

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: question about SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE
Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:04:09 -0800


    I was checking the various artists section of my favorite record store
when I found the following:


*** - SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE: various artists

  Soundtrack to the comic books.

    Produced by Dave Ogilvie and Kat Bjelland

  Kat Bjelland (1-3,5,7-13): guitars, bass, vocals; Lori Barbero (1,3,5,10,
  13): drums; Michelle Leon (1): bass; Buzz Osbourne (1,10): bass, vocals;
  Steven Dudas (1): programming; Peter Steele (2,12): vocals, bass; Mark
  Piovanetti (2): guitar; Jim Thirwell (2): drum programming; Dougie Bowne (2,
  7,13): drum programming; Hope Nicholls (3,12,13): guest vocals, saxophone;
  Chris Vrenna (3,10,12): programs; Dave Mustaine (4): vocals, guitars; David
  Ellefson (4): bass; Marty Friedman (4): guitar; Brian Howe (4): drums; Peter
  Bradley (6): vocals, guitar; Nicolaj Bloch (6): guitars; George Brown (6):
  bass; Tommas Arnby (6): drums; Kim Fox (7): vocals, accordion, organ; Andy
  McCormick (7,12): stand-up bass, saw, piano, bass, vocals, air organ; Marc
  Pizzaro (7,10): piano; Tim DuRoche (7): drums; Dave Ogilvie (8): vocals,
  programming; Anthony "Fu" Valcic (8,12): guitars, programs; Miho Hatori (9,
  13): vocals; Arto Lindsay (9): vocals, guitar; Nana Vasconcelos (9): drums;
  Andres Levin (9): sample loops harmonium; Kevin Rutmanis (10): vocals, guest
  bass; Mimi Goese (11): vocals; Hahn Rowe (11): guitar, keyboard; Tom Siler
  (12): air organ; Lydia Lunch (13): vocals; Johnny Temple (13): bass; Alexis
  Fleisig (13): drums; Marc Ribot (13): guitar.

    1998 - DreamWorks Records (USA), DRMD-50102 (CD)


Anybody knows when this came out?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "jon gibbon" <[e-mail]>
Subject:
Date: 14 Dec 1998 13:07:42 PST

"what's go'in on there zorn-o"
              just suscribed and i 'm feeling disconnected....
the albums that you talk of are unknown to me .... i liv e   in  kansas
(before you say another cliche line about the wizard of oz or something
about covered wagons let me explain i don,t live in west kansas and the
difference 'tween west and lawrence[the liberal town of kansas] is so
hug e   that .....*fill in your own quaint saying*) so alll    lll  i
listen to is old zorn  y'know naked city and locus solos  an' the
like....   so before i slit my tender teenage wrist with zorn's  torture
garder compolation album ...   perhaps i can be introduced to a new zorn
experience.... ....  ...   and prehaps you ... or you ... or maybe you
can help... about the zorn. there's no stopping the killing part....
here's the zorn i've listened to (keep in mind i say zorn but that just
means is in it and not prominate)
...weird little boy
...(somethingsomething) tradition s of an east asian band
...naked city(the album name)
...locus solos
...black box
...filmworks
...filmworks 3
...john zorn's cobra (i think '93)
            there may be   more   but i can[t remember too good like
any way     OPEN MY EYES ... BRotheerS ... LET ME SEE THE LIGHT THAT I
SEEMLY AM MISSING AND LET THE GOD SSS OF ....wait wait  ... that's
anothher  meeeeeting  sorry...
i like crazy zorn the best but i still have ties for classical style and
what not ....


                                            gib
          imix
                             leng.tch.e
                                             that other gut
                            nobbig
                                             and so forth are my rows
of pusedonyms






































































ps does any one around here know where i can get some tang...┐?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: new Penguin Guide 5-star ratings
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:37:59 EST

well, as I mentioned last week, I ordered the new 4th edition of the Penguin
Guide from Amazon's UK site, and it arrived today. I've been reading it all
afternoon, and one thing I thought would be interesting to the list is the
changes in their five-star (or "crown") ratings. the Penguin authors, Richard
Cook & Brian Morton, tend to not dole out too many of these; in the last
edition, there were 54. in this edition, there are 61 all told, but I'll just
list the new ones here, since I assume most people on this list have the last
Penguin Guide already (if you don't, buy the new one immediately when it's
released in the US in March. 1600 pages of well-written, intelligent reviews
for 24 bucks. it's the single most invaluable jazz reference book, I think.)

OK, here are the new ones:

David Ware-Godspelized (DIW).

Cecil Taylor-Nefertiti, the Beautiful One Has Come (Revenant). the first and
only Cecil record with a crown, surprisingly.

Evan Parker-50th Birthday Concert (Leo) although this is probably not in the
first ten Parker CDs I'd recommend, it's good to see one of my favorite
artists reperesented.

Lee Morgan-The Sidewinder (Blue Note)

Miles Davis and Gil Evans-The Complete Studio Sessions (Columbia)

Stan Getz-The Complete Roost Recordings (Roost)

Tomas Stanko-Leosia (ECM). in keeping with the writers' love of Finnish jazz,
with Edward Vesala and Krzysztof Komeda already having crowns by their name.
anyone heard this one? I have the ones before and after (Matka Joanna and
Litania), neither of which especially impressed me as being brilliant.

Herbie Hancock-Maiden Voyage (Blue Note)

Lee Konitz-Motion (Verve) the three CD version, since that's the only one
available.

Larry Young-Unity (Blue Note) this one was listed in earlier editions, but not
the previous one.

Position Alpha-The Great Sound Of Sound (Dragon). This one was new to me,
evidently a Swedish saxophone quintet record from 1984. anyone heard this?

Max Roach-We Insist! Freedom Now Suite (Candid)

also, their Ganelin Trio 5-star choice changed from Catalogue to Ancora Da
Capo (both Leo) for reasons explained in the text. Coltrane's Heavyweight
Champion was stripped of its fifth star, also for reasons explained in the
book. and a handful were dropped because they're out of print: Louis
Armstrong, Jelly Roll Morton, and Woody Herman.

clearly, I have too much free time on my hands.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Evguenie Sokolov by Serge Gainsbourg
Date: 14 Dec 1998 18:04:19 -0800

Hi folks,

I haven't read this novel yet (I just ordered it), but I'm sure at least
some of you will be interested in it.  The book is available from:

Small Press Distribution
1341 Seventh Street
Berkeley, CA 94710-1409
800-869-7553
[e-mail]
http://www.spdbooks.org

Also at Amazon.com, Barnes & Nobel, and through your local independent
bookstore.

The same press also has what looks like a good novel by Boris Vian, who may
be better known as a jazz critic.

Bests,

Herb


>Evguenie Sokolov  by Serge Gainsbourg (1928-1991)
>ISBN  0-9662346-1-8     Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 97-80957
>Translated from the  French by John and Doreen Weightman
>
>        This is the one and only novel by the 20th century provocateur of
>French pop music and film  - the legendary Serge Gainsbourg .   This
>prototype lusty punk tore into the threads of French society with his
>numerous films, music projects, and outlandish persona.   He made
>recordings with Brigitte Bardot, Jane Birkin  and a scandalous recording of
>=84Lemon Incest=BE with his own daughter Charlotte.   If that wasn=BCt bad
>enough, he told Whitney Houston  live on French TV that he would love to
>fuck her.
>
>        Evguenie Sokolov  is a novel about an artist who uses his
>intestinal gases as the medium for his scandalous artwork.  What once was a
>huge smelly and noisy problem in his social and sex life becomes a tool for
>success in the early eighties art world.   Please note that there is also a
>song by Gainsbourg called "Evguenie Sokolov"  of farting noises over a
>reggae track.
>
>Some quotes about Gainsbourg and the novel:
>
>
>
>"Gainsbourg is both the best and the worst, yin and yang, white and black.
>This Jewish little Prince from Russia whose dreams were probably fueled by
>Andersen, Perrault and Grimm, became, when confronted by the tragic reality
>of life, a moving or repugnant Quasimodo, depending on his and your state
>of mind.  Hidden deep within this fragile, shy and aggressive man lies the
>soul of a poet craving tenderness, truth and integrity."   Brigitte Bardot
>
>"Serge Gainsbourg is one of the world's great eccentrics.  His kinky
>obsessions, smothering fashion with tastelessness have catapulted him into
>super stardom in France.
>
>This is his only novel and you have never read anything like it  Evgueine
>Sokolov will make you squirm.  It will make you laugh.  It also may very
>well make you sick.  Gainsbourg's vision is his own: authentic and
>convulsive.  But don't forget to hold your nose."   John Zorn
>
>"Gainsbourg takes one childish, cheap and tasteless one-joke idea and
>manages to keep it entertaining enough to last for a whole book. he has an
>envious command of adjectives and adverbs." Mark Webber, Pulp
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>-----------------
>Tosh Berman
>TamTam Books
>----------------
>


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: more Brouwer
Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:42:02 -0800

 Would anyone know where I could get ahold of a transcription of Leo
Brouwer's "Hika", written in remembrance of Toru Takemitsu?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "allen j huotari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bjorkenheim/Skopelitis
Date: 14 Dec 1998 21:27:34 -0000


greetings fellow zornophiliacs

the Wayside Music "New In Stock" page has the long-awaited Raoul
Bjorkenheim/Nicky Skopelitis "Revelator" listed

anyone out there care to shed further illumination on this one?


ajh




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: Re: Bjorkenheim/Skopelitis
Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:34:33 +0100

>the Wayside Music "New In Stock" page has the long-awaited Raoul
>Bjorkenheim/Nicky Skopelitis "Revelator" listed
>
>anyone out there care to shed further illumination on this one?

This is a brilliant guitar-duet ambient mix which also features Bill Buchen
on tablas and Bill Laswell on "sounds". It was released half a year or so
ago on the Douglas label, which has already gone under after only about
half-a-dozen releases. People with a taste for All Things Laswellian have
been searching for copies of this from Helsinki to Seattle in the past few
months, and all indications are that the supply is running thin (thought
Downtown Music Gallery recently made it known that they had some
twenty-five copies in stock). Though other reports are more encouraging,
and state that there are plans to re-release _Revelator_ on another label.

Highly recommended; fine liner notes also, but Axiom chief Bill Murphy.

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of the History of Ideas
Umea University
S-901 87 Umea Sweden



Ume=E5 University
Department of History of Science and Ideas
Dr Mohammad Fazlhashemi
S-901 87  UME=C5, SWEDEN
Phone: [phone]
Telefax: [phone]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Penguin Guide 5-star ratings
Date: 15 Dec 1998 13:34:47 +0100 (MET)


> Tomas Stanko-Leosia (ECM). in keeping with the writers' love of Finnish jazz,
> with Edward Vesala and Krzysztof Komeda already having crowns by their name.
> anyone heard this one? I have the ones before and after (Matka Joanna and
> Litania), neither of which especially impressed me as being brilliant.

Can anyone second the five star rating that Komeda's "Astigmatic" receives in
the admittedly wonderful Penguin Guide?

Also, I think it's time someone took it upon themselves to release Komeda's
soundtrack to Roman Polanski's "Fearless Vampire Killers".

Frankco.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: komeda
Date: 15 Dec 1998 14:58:00 +0100 (MET)



> Also, I think it's time someone took it upon themselves to release Komeda's
> soundtrack to Roman Polanski's "Fearless Vampire Killers".
>
> Frankco.
and some of his late 60s jazz albums like KOMEDA 3 should also be
rereleased. i only have a bad tape-copy from an even worse lp-version
(scratched). but what i hear is amazing.

and hey, i was in contact with someone from this list from poland, who
told me that there is alot of komedas stuff out there...hey man, i lost
your emailaddress...could you get back to me?

BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: question about SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE
Date: 15 Dec 1998 07:09:01 -0800

I'm not exactly sure when the release date was, but the promo started
showing up about two months ago or so. A few interesting things here, but
mostly pretty lame.

Todd


>    I was checking the various artists section of my favorite record store
>when I found the following:
>
>-
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------>
>*** - SONGS OF THE WITCHBLADE: various artists
>
>  Soundtrack to the comic books.
>
>    Produced by Dave Ogilvie and Kat Bjelland
>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:09:32 -0500 (EST)

Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?

I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.

As for the "Fearless Vampire Killers" soundtrack, didn't the Bad Brains
already do that one? (wink)

Jason Bivins


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:11:24 -0500 (EST)


Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?

I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.

As for the "Fearless Vampire Killers" soundtrack, didn't the Bad Brains
already do that one? (wink)

Jason Bivins



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:40:52 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Jason Caulfield Bivins wrote:

> Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
> "Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this? Certainly a
> very good record, especially if you love post-Ayler shrieking as I do, but
> is it that essential when compared the also-crowned "Spiritual Unity"?
>
> I'm just throwing this out there (and secretly hoping Jon Abbey will give
> us some more goop, since he has so much free time on his hands). Why would
> they dock the Coltrane Atlantic box? Those Penguin boys are so confusing.

anytime anyone tries to canonize art, there always seems to be some
oblique methodology at play, personal axes to grind, nostalgic favorites
to lionize, etc.  is "godspelized" a better record than david murray's
"low-class conspiracy"?  maybe.  maybe not.  i know that one is in print
and one isn't, yet they both come from the post-ayler continuum (to
paraphrase anthony braxton).  the problem with these lists comes when
us laypeople take them more seriously than what they deserve, which is to
be considered as a list of recomendations.  take them with a few grains of
salt.
two good recent examples of botched attempts to canonize are the modern
library's 100 best list of 20th century novels and the afi's 100 best list
of american films.  for example, why are women so underrepresented in the
former?  why did murnau's "sunrise" (a film many critics consider to be the
best ever made) go unmentioned in the latter?  these lists aren't perfect,
but it seems to be human nature to make lists, so keep them coming, but i
certainly don't take them as unflawed.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Klezmer
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:51:06 EST

Hello all,
    I'm just entering a new slice of music Klezmer. Naftule Brandwein,
Naftule's dream, David Krakauer, and I'm looking for more. I would like to
know more about the history of Klezmer. What does the word mean? When did it
start? Can you help me?

Ego Pogo

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:53:45 EST


In a message dated 12/15/98 11:43:15 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<the problem with these lists comes when
us laypeople take them more seriously than what they deserve, which is to
be considered as a list of recomendations.  take them with a few grains of
salt.  >>

my feelings exactly. two of the previously crowned records are Bobby Watson's
Love Remains and Joe Lovano's From The Soul. I don't think these are two of
the most essential sixty records ever, but I didn't write this book.

that being said...

<<Don't get me wrong: I love the David Ware group. But 5 stars for
"Godspelized"? What, pray tell, is the rationale for this?>>

the closest they give to a rationale on this is that "Only Charles Gayle has
managed to push the Coltrane idiom farther out." Gayle's Touchin' On Trane
previously had a crown, although it's a more deserving record, if you ask me.
and as far as the Coltrane box being demoted, it has to do with the ready
availability of all of the individual records.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 09:57:35 -0800


On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:53:45 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> the closest they give to a rationale on this is that "Only Charles Gayle has
> managed to push the Coltrane idiom farther out." Gayle's Touchin' On Trane
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?

Anyway, I am seriously wondering where is the flaw there. Critics who can't
stop whining at the past and jump on anything which could reassure them that
the old days are still there? WASPs who feel guilty for having missed the
'60s free-jazz and find in Gayle an excuse to repare the mistake (with an
indulgence that almost looks like total lack of critic judgement). Kids
who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
told them that there was music besides rock?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 13:43:52 EST

wow, Patrice. quite a little diatribe there.

<<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>

I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
aping said style.

<<Anyway, I am seriously wondering where is the flaw there. Critics who can't
stop whining at the past and jump on anything which could reassure them that
the old days are still there? WASPs who feel guilty for having missed the
'60s free-jazz and find in Gayle an excuse to repare the mistake (with an
indulgence that almost looks like total lack of critic judgement). Kids
who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
told them that there was music besides rock?>>

hmmm. the only thing in that I feel that I need to answer is the Gayle slam.
have you seen him play live, preferably before the last few years when he's
mostly been doing his clown routine? he was literally breathtaking. much of
this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful of
the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision Festival
was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.

all that being said, I listened to Ware's Godspelized again yesterday and
don't think it's deserving of a five-star rating. but like I said before, I
didn't write the book, and like Brent said before, they're just opinions.

one interesting discussion this may start is how geographical distance affects
your perception of a musical scene. those of us in NYC who could have seen
Gayle or Ware (or Zorn) 50 times or more if we had wanted may easily be jaded
when thinking critically about them. more on this later if others pick up the
thread.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Recommendations
Date: 15 Dec 1998 15:59:06 -0300

Hi Zornies,

Just to ask for any opinions on these CDs.
I'm planning this month's shopping and any light on these will be
helpful.
You can email me privately if you consider off-interest to the List

Thanks in advance,

Hugo

Any Babkas' cd- (Ants to the moon- Babkas- Fratelli)
Joey Baron's Raise Pleasure Dot
Jean Derome's Tribute to the music of T. Monk
Frank London's The Debt
Roy Nathanson's Camp Stories
John Patton's Blue Planet Man
Ned Rothemberg's Power Lines
B. Frisell's Buster Keaton's Soundtrack



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:24:16 -0800


On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:43:52 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> wow, Patrice. quite a little diatribe there.
>
> <<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
> considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>

Which was directed at Penguin's comment.

> I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
> the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
> aping said style.

We might argue on the added value of Gayle's achievements to free-jazz.

> [...]
>
> hmmm. the only thing in that I feel that I need to answer is the Gayle slam.
> have you seen him play live, preferably before the last few years when he's
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Only once and I was as disappointed as with the records. There was definitely
energy but I thought it was really short on ideas and inspiration. Most of
the solos were the same and I got bored after few songs (something that never
happens with Coltrane, Shepp, Sanders, and other '60s artists).

His performance on instruments other that tenor were, I feel, really
embarrassing (violin, etc).

> mostly been doing his clown routine? he was literally breathtaking. much of
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I fortunately missed that (and his rantings against "sinners").

> this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful of
> the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
> Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
> performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision Festival
> was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.

I definitely missed these shows.

    Patrice (wondering if he should give Gayle another chance, or if
        he simply lost any interest in this kind of jazz).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 14:26:07 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 [e-mail] wrote:

> <<This is interesting... Since when pushing a genre created 30 years ago is
> considered a great achievement (besides nostalgic reasons, of course)?>>
>
> I'd say it's something of an achievement, if no one else has been able to in
> the intervening 30 years. There's a difference between pushing a style and
> aping said style.

i agree.  some of the best post-coltrane, post-ayler free jazz was all
about taking that aesthetic and pushing it into the red (like arthur
doyle's "alabama feeling").  it seems as if patrice's question is akin
to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?"  (or
even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?")  i
think there comes a point when the refinement becomes static (like hard
bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
is certainly cause for praise of great records like "touching on trane."

> one interesting discussion this may start is how geographical distance affects
> your perception of a musical scene. those of us in NYC who could have seen
> Gayle or Ware (or Zorn) 50 times or more if we had wanted may easily be jaded
> when thinking critically about them. more on this later if others pick up the
> thread.

well, seeing gayle play with william parker, kid jordan and milford
graves this summer further solidified my belief that gayle comes out of
the free tradition, but he is nowhere near merely retreading ideas.  that
show was freaky, intense and insane.  it was perhaps the most palpable
sense of fear i've ever experienced watching free jazz.  it made me want
to pull out my gayle records for another listen.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: komeda
Date: 15 Dec 1998 20:50:32 +0100

> and some of his late 60s jazz albums like KOMEDA 3 should also be
> rereleased. i only have a bad tape-copy from an even worse
> lp-version (scratched). but what i hear is amazing.

I live in Poland and I could help with getting Komeda / Stanko
records. Please e-mail me privately.

Regards


__________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill
Frisell



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Glenn Ianaro" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Klezmer
Date: 15 Dec 1998 13:09:04 PST


>Hello all,
>    I'm just entering a new slice of music Klezmer. Naftule Brandwein,
>Naftule's dream, David Krakauer, and I'm looking for more. I would like
to
>know more about the history of Klezmer. What does the word mean? When
did it
>start? Can you help me?
>
>Ego Pogo

THere are a set of recordings called the Klezmer Pioneer Recordings.
These are authentic old time Klezmer recordings and are wonderful.  SOme
other groups are the Klezmer Conservatory Band, a group from Boston, and
also Alicia Svidl <sp?> is a wonderful Klezmer Violinist.

As for what THe Word Means I'm not sure.


Glenn

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 13:09:23 -0800


On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:26:07 -0500 (EST)  Brent Burton wrote:
>
> i agree.  some of the best post-coltrane, post-ayler free jazz was all
> about taking that aesthetic and pushing it into the red (like arthur
> doyle's "alabama feeling").  it seems as if patrice's question is akin
> to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?"  (or
> even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?")  i
> think there comes a point when the refinement becomes static (like hard
> bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
> has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am curious to know where you read about that. It seems to me akin to
Christians saying that the existence of God has not been questioned for the
past 300 years... You statement has more to do with faith than with
facts. Or your statement comes from an insider that has not taken the
temperature outside for a long time :-).

You might feel that way because everybody outside improv just don't care
about the genre anymore. It was maybe the same in the '70s, but improv
had the benefit of the novelty at that time, and some people were seriously
believing that it was the next hot shit in music. Instead of that, I have
the impression that improv is becoming more and more a ghetto. The more
disconnected from the outside, the more convinced the members are that
they are on the right track... Improv had 30 years to get its message
through. Do you see any reasons to open the champagne?

From Derek Bailey, excerpt from an interview published in JAZZTIMES August
1997:

  "I don't know what the 'orthodoxy' of improvised music is, but I wouldn't
  be surprised if there is one now."

I totally disagree with your assessment of the free community (lack of
stagnation). I think that the freshness is not there anymore (except if you
identify freshness with amateurism), and performances are becoming catalogues
of cliches (inherited from the glorious hours of the genre). For a John
Butcher (to name somebody a little bit younger), how many second knives,
predictable performances (waiting for the elusive "magic moment"), hackeneyed
and tedious extended techniques? Is it not surprising that the main names that
we are still dropping these days are the ones who created the genre... 30
years ago?

I don't think there is anything wrong with a genre reaching saturation (hey!
bebop did not even last 20 years), what is wrong is the rosy message that
improv is defying the laws of thermodynamics and keeps on getting younger and
younger.

    Patrice (a big fan of improv, but not a cheerleader).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Klezmer
Date: 15 Dec 1998 15:21:22 -0600 (CST)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Glenn Ianaro wrote:

> As for what THe Word Means I'm not sure.

FWIW: It comes from the Hebrew "k'ley zemer", meaning "musical
instruments".

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 16:43:43 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:26:07 -0500 (EST)  Brent Burton wrote:

> > think there comes a point when the refinement becomes static (like hard
> > bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
> > has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I am curious to know where you read about that. It seems to me akin to
> Christians saying that the existence of God has not been questioned for the
> past 300 years... You statement has more to do with faith than with
> facts. Or your statement comes from an insider that has not taken the
> temperature outside for a long time :-).

what are you talking about?  there *is no* free jazz repertory in the sense
that there is a bop or dixieland repertory.  with the exception of a few
instances, you don't see groups playing playing free jazz standards (for
lack of a better phrase) for their whole set.  my whole point was that
there is more interest in reinvention within the free jazz community than
in other genres that fall under the rubric of jazz.  just because "touching
on trane" is a trio date with all-acoustic instruments doesn't mean that
they are aping anyone.  they don't even play coltrane songs!  yet you say
that it's stagnant?  i say that it stems from a tradition, just as
(bluegrass banjo player) roscoe holcomb was influenced by (bluegrass banjo
player) dock boggs.  if you listen to recordings of these guys, you
can't tell when they were recorded (fidelity aside).  they both have the
spark of innovation and you can't say the same thing for a lee morgan
record vs. a wynton marsalis record.  i think you're reading something
into my statement that just isn't there.  my original point was that
attempts to canonize works are often arbitrary.  i also think that it's
kind of shortsighted to dismiss gayle, because he plays improvised jazz
which is influenced by coltrane.  hell, you'd have to shoot every tenor
saxophonist around today if you wanted to eradicate that influence.  and,
yes, there are a lot of totally unique improv recordings made every year.
some of my favorites this past year were from joe morris, ken vandermark,
marc ducret, william parker, derek bailey and joe mcphee.  not all brand
spankin' new names, but certainly not all 30 years old.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 16:14:51 -0600 (CST)

While in strictly improvisational music there, of course, aren't cases of
people playing preexisting pieces, there are well known gestures and
structures that people fall into as an earlier jazzer might fall into
playing the Rhythm changes. We've all heard them, and when we find
ourselves uninspired at a free-improv performance, either as performer or
audient, there's usually one or more of them happening.

There's the frenetic blowing of saxophones as fast and loud as possible...
the walls of guitar feedback... the "everybody plink" moment with
strings... the random orgasmic sounds of vocalists...

A cause and effect of these is often an inability or unwillingness to
listen to the others playing. Quite often, a player hitting one of these
tropes, can shut down perception and just plow ahead (knowing that some of
the audience will get off on it due to sheer volume or weirdness and that
others will assume that there's something more, rather than less, going on
than they can comprehend).

The trick/point is to, as Miles put it, "play what you don't know"... and
of course, to know enough of what has gone before to recognize the cliches
when they happen and redirect yourself.

I've never heard Charles Gayle, Joe McFee, or Mark Ducret, and have never
played the one Joe Morris CD that I have. Time for more investigation...

(Speaking of careful group interaction, I just finished listening to disk
4 of Braxton at Willisau and have popped disk one back in.  After not
"geting" Braxton for years, this set lays out what's happening
beautifully, as much due to Graham Lock's liner notes as to the music
itelf. I'm now devouring "Forces in Motion" to get the rest of the
story...)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



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From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:21:17 -0500 (EST)

> Anyway, I am seriously wondering where is the flaw there. Critics who can't
> stop whining at the past and jump on anything which could reassure them that
> the old days are still there? WASPs who feel guilty for having missed the
> '60s free-jazz and find in Gayle an excuse to repare the mistake (with an
> indulgence that almost looks like total lack of critic judgement). Kids
> who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
> told them that there was music besides rock?

I have all of these same suspicions, not to say that I don't like some of
this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.

I also feel like the "spirituality" aspect gets overbearing - I'm not
saying its not there or not sincere or even that its not responsible for
creating inspired moments in the music- but I do think a lot of white
people (I know this to be true in some cases) put on the blinders when
someone plays a shitty solo or the music just doesn't work - "It's
all about sprituality and emotion" or something, they say.  That gets old
for me.

> to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?"  (or
> even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?")  i

Eck, are you serious! There's certainly a bigger difference in Berne,
like w/ Bloodcount, and Hemphill (or Fugazi and Wire) than Gayle/Ware and
Coltrane/Ayler.  Is there not? I was just listening to the recent William
Parker In Order To Survive CD, which is good, but compared to Nefertiti,
done 37 years earlier, I don't know.  I feel like it (Parker's stuff) gets
more predictable and has more of a tendency to dead end than what Taylor
and co. were doing, which to me is not a sign of refinement.

> bop in the late fifties/early sixties), but seeing that the free community
> has almost entirely avoided the stagnation of repertory, i think that there
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Maybe it has avoided reportory, but a lot of it reaches the same
conclusions in terms of the dynamics and development (I know its wrong to
generalize but...).  Whereas with people like Hemphill I feel like there's
more of a development and a move away from the same "start quiet, build,
get loud, quiet down, draw it out too long" kind of thing.

> You might feel that way because everybody outside improv just don't care
> about the genre anymore. It was maybe the same in the '70s, but improv
> had the benefit of the novelty at that time, and some people were seriously
> believing that it was the next hot shit in music.

Well a lot of indie/post-rock people seem to think the same thing.  I
think its good that people like Roy Campbell, Assif Tsahar, as well as
Shipp and Parker and all those are getting exposure, but I wonder how long
it will be until the fad dies off with these younger people (my age
group), the record companies lose too much money, and then its back to
Cadence/Coda land for all these musicians.

Feel free to correct me because I'm relatively new compared to some of the
people here - just my pt. of view

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Improv/Penguin
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:42:51 -0500 (EST)

Hi,

It's just a tad ironic that what began as an exchange about the
arbitrariness of lists as evaluations (a touch subject for this group),
the exchange should've morphed into an attempted referendum on the state
of "improv" music.

I should say first of all that I agree with much of what Patrice has said
about the period in the late 60s-early 70s when "improv" was a relatively
new form. But, as might be evident by the use of scare quotes around the
term, this wasn't a tremendously long moment. Granted, there are still
those who, like Charles Gayle, have continued to explore completely
free-form improvisation (and I'm tempted to enumerate the other players
who I feel have done interesting things with this sub-tradition, like Evan
Parker, Marilyn Crispell, Mats Gustafsson, Joe Morris, etc.). But the
interesting story, both musically and culturally, has been the ways in
which traditions have cross-pollinated, structure and improvisation
negotiated for musical space, and in which new techniques and audiences
have pumped life into various idioms (few of which might be considered
"free," a term that practitioners themselves all too rarely use).

As for the Thurston Moore stuff, I sympathize to a degree. But why
complain if the audience for this music can grow, and if 20-somethings
like me were reared on hardcore and shifted into improv-core sometime in
the early 90s? Speaking as both a Sonic Youth and a Cecil Taylor fan, it
seems to me that what's vital about them both is that they've actively
pursued the creation of a unique sound-world. That, in my opinion, is a
substantive musical contribution that exists independently of its formal
attributes.

And oh yeah, why no 5-star ratings for Mr. Braxton?

Jason Bivins


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:25:08 -0500

Really interesting comments from Patrice...

Think of all that we attack Wynton Marsalis for - trying to keep alive an old form
of music that we believe to be dead. We accuse him of not causing any true musical
progress. Well, the music Wynton is trying to uphold was as innovative at the time
as free improv and avant-garde jazz was in the 60's. Why should attempting to
uphold the standards of the latter be more valid than what Wynton does? Perhaps
that is not the real problem many have with Wynton... perhaps it is more an
aesthetic issue (or maybe more realistically his attitude). I think free-improv
fanatics should have a little more perspective though.

There are definitely free jazz cliches! Did anyone see the Glenn Spearman
performance at FITV this summer? (perhaps that is unfair because he was quite ill
and has since died - really very sad...) I could hardly stand it. Some other guy
took the mouthpiece out of his horn and wailed on it... big fucking deal. I was
bored silly until Parker and Brotzmann - but then again, I've heard enough
Brotzmann.

                                    -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:38:53 EST

I think it's important to differentiate the NY-based "ecstatic jazz" scene
from improv in general. as far as Patrice's remarks apply to the NY scene
(Gayle, Ware, Shipp, Parker, etc.), I actually agree for the most part. but
that doesn't mean that improv is stagnant by any means.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:29:19 EST

patrice said:

<<Is it not surprising that the main names that
we are still dropping these days are the ones who created the genre... 30
years ago? >>

Patrice, maybe you're just not listening to the right records. there's good
records and bad records in any genre, no one's disputing that. some of the
improv records that I was really into this year by younger, lesser known
artists were:

Simon Fell-Composition No. 30: Compilation III (double CD on Bruce's Fingers)
Martin Klapper & Roger Turner-Recent Croaks (Acta)
Gunter Muller & Jim O'Rourke-Weighting (For 4 Ears)
RST-R136a (Ecstatic Peace)
Martin Tetreault-La Nuit Ou J'Ai Dit Non (Audioview)
Voice Crack-Below Beyond Above (Uhlang)

it's hard for really young musicians to make great improv records, as I think
experience really helps in this genre. yeah, Cecil Taylor, Evan Parker and
Derek Bailey are still doing great stuff. does that make improv a stagnant
genre? certainly not. and as for your assertion that no one cares about improv
anymore, I don't agree at all. I think it's gradually infiltrating more and
more musicians' and critics' mindsets, if not the actual music.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv/Penguin
Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:51:08 -0500

> I should say first of all that I agree with much of what Patrice has said
> about the period in the late 60s-early 70s when "improv" was a relatively
> new form. But, as might be evident by the use of scare quotes around the
> term, this wasn't a tremendously long moment. Granted, there are still
> those who, like Charles Gayle, have continued to explore completely
> free-form improvisation (and I'm tempted to enumerate the other players
> who I feel have done interesting things with this sub-tradition, like Evan
> Parker, Marilyn Crispell, Mats Gustafsson, Joe Morris, etc.).

uhh... Evan Parker was one of the free-improv innovators involved very early
(mid/late 60's) with the Spontaneous Music Ensemble. I believe his first
record was Derek Bailey's first as well - Withdrawl (66-67). I don't see why
he's clumped with the rest of the players you mentioned.

I agree though that Mats Gustafsson is a newcomer that is bringing some very
new ideas to the table. Whil influenced by both Parker and Brotzmann, I think
he's capable of making some really exciting music.

Why is it that many of the European free improvisors that pioneered the idiom
are still around and playing while the Americans from that period seemed to
have disappeared?

                                    -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:14:50 -0300

Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> the music Wynton is trying to uphold was as innovative at the time
> as free improv and avant-garde jazz was in the 60's. Why should attempting to
> uphold the standards of the latter be more valid than what Wynton does?

I don't see this as an issue. I don't think anyone in improv is out
there doing what they do to "uphold a tradition"-- I see it more as a
choice of fuller palette, more colors, more options, etc. Also, it seems
to me that most of the folks doing improv are thus compelled. I mean
it's not a very smart career choice or anything! :-)

> I could hardly stand it. Some other guy
> took the mouthpiece out of his horn and wailed on it... big fucking deal.

I'd have to hear this wailing mouthpiece to know whether it was or was
not a big fuckeen deal. I mean, by the same token, and yes I'm
oversimplifying here-- what's the big deal of someone sitting down
playing a piano? It's been done before.

--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Improv/Penguin
Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:11:29 EST


In a message dated 12/15/98 5:45:14 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<And oh yeah, why no 5-star ratings for Mr. Braxton?>>

he gets plenty of four-star ratings, including Willisau and most of the Ghost
Trance stuff. what should get five stars?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 14 Dec 1998 18:24:12 -0500

Rick Lopez wrote:

> Tom Pratt wrote:
> >
> > the music Wynton is trying to uphold was as innovative at the time
> > as free improv and avant-garde jazz was in the 60's. Why should attempting to
> > uphold the standards of the latter be more valid than what Wynton does?
>
> I don't see this as an issue. I don't think anyone in improv is out
> there doing what they do to "uphold a tradition"

Well *are* they upholding a tradition? While I do like some of his records, I would
say that Charles Gayle is whether he is consciously attempting to or not.

> -- I see it more as a
> choice of fuller palette, more colors, more options, etc.

More options? Not if you limit yourself to the "standard" free improv group pumping
out ideas established in the 60's. I don't even care if it's the same guys who made
that shit back in the 60's and 70's. I'm pretty confident I won't buy another
Parker/Guy/Lytton CD for instance and it might take some talking into to buy any
more solo Bailey (I love both of them to death of course).

If free improv professes the concept of freedom of all pre-established structure,
why is it that so much of it sounds alike? It's because there is a form that has
been established. (I like Patrice's Bailey quote) There are cliches. There are
pre-established ideas which are engrained concepts of what free-improv *should* be.
It makes it pretty obvious why groups like AMM were/are really important - while
much of their music was similar to itself, it was nothing like anything else going
on.

I agree with Jon Abbey that there's some great improv happening now (and I would
second the handful of his suggestions that I've heard), but what makes them
important is that they are new uses of free improvisation outside of what's now
become traditional.

                                -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv/Penguin
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:01:43 -0500 (EST)

Actually, I think a lot of the American folks are still around, just not
in as high-profile a fashion. CIMP has done sterling service in recording
folks like Frank Lowe, Kalaparush McIntyre, et. al. God only knows where
Marion Brown is either.

As for Parker's presence in my mini-list, I suppose I should've qualified
it by saying folks who are STILL doing interesting things (thinking in
particular of his electro-acoustic stuff of recent years) as well as
relative newcomers like Gustafsson.

I suppose the Euro/U.S. thing boils down, in many cases, to a question of
funding. As most of us know, some of the major European labels (like Hat)
receive state funding, and a lot of promotions/booking organizations in
regional scenes get buttloads of grant money. I was shocked, on reading
Kevin Whitehead's marvellous "New Dutch Swing", just how many guilders
were flyin' around at one point in the 70s and 80s -- much to the benefit
of the Breuker Kollektier, ICP, et. al. Alas, without similar sponsorship
in the states (or serious sweat on the DIY front, as in Chicago), the many
many active musicians just aren't getting heard. If American artists from
the "classic" era of "free" are getting steady work, it seems often to be
in Europe (Sam Rivers, Cecil Taylor just to name two).

I've always wondered how it is that JZ manages (financially, that is) his
prodigious output and label-overseeing. More power to him.

Wow, I think this is more bandwidth than I've taken up in months. Enough
from me.

JB


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide/IMPROV
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:24:39 EST

> I totally disagree with your assessment of the free community (lack of
>  stagnation). I think that the freshness is not there anymore (except if you
>  identify freshness with amateurism), and performances are becoming
catalogues
>  of cliches (inherited from the glorious hours of the genre). [....]

>  I don't think there is anything wrong with a genre reaching saturation
(hey!
>  bebop did not even last 20 years), what is wrong is the rosy message that
>  improv is defying the laws of thermodynamics and keeps on getting younger
>  and younger.

These statements seem to be a bit close-minded, and also seem to indicate that
the person has heard *everything* thats happening these days in improvised
music.  What about Joe Schmoe, who gigs every Thursday night down at Bar X.
Have you heard anything John Dough has done lately?  I'm naming people that
dont exist, while others have made references to people actually making
records, but the point is still the same.  I mean, have you heard it ALL??  Do
you think its possible that you could hear something improvised today and
think "wow, this is fresh"?  And if so, would you feel better classifying this
as a new genre of music....

There are still *great things* happening in improvised music today.  Perhaps
you just havent heard these things.  Of course, its all opinions when talking
about whats "good"; far be it from me to cast my opinions in a matter-of-fact
way.

Jody

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:25:01 -0300

Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> Well *are* they upholding a tradition?

How the hell should I know?

> More options? Not if you limit yourself

First, I lurk mainly because I have no time for *this*. (not being
smarmy, just busier than a cat trying to cover shit on a marble floor.)
"Not if you limit yourself"-- Well I'm not. So I'm not sure who you're
talking to. I don't disgree that some do. So what.
Improv has more options. Less stringent rules. More places to go. I
never said, and never would, that there aren't some who plumb the same
places relentlessly.

> I'm pretty confident I won't buy another
> Parker/Guy/Lytton CD for instance and it might take some talking into to buy any
> more solo Bailey (I love both of them to death of course).

Personally, I'm obssessive about certain voices, and I need to
understand them, and so I would PREFER to hear every note, for instance,
that Ms. Crispell plays. They need not be all sublime. I want the
clunkers too. It's the individual style/voice/sound-world I'm after. I'm
a focus-down type. I want in.

> If free improv professes the concept of freedom of all pre-established structure

Says who? I thougt it just meant you needn't follow the rules of others,
that you can make your own rules, parameters, style choices, note-combos
rhythmic feels, etc., in addition to plundering all that's gone before.

> why is it that so much of it sounds alike?

Why is it that so much of it sounds different?? Depends on what you're
listening to.

> It's because there is a form that has
> been established. (I like Patrice's Bailey quote) There are cliches. There are
> pre-established ideas which are engrained concepts of what free-improv *should* be.

I don't disagree with this. I don't think everyone resorts to them
though. I think you're batching here. (I *think* you are, okay? I'm
probably wrong, so don't bother correcting me:-)

> It makes it pretty obvious why groups like AMM were/are really important - while
> much of their music was similar to itself, it was nothing like anything else going
> on.

Sure, but I hear *lots* of folks carving out these places.
(I also, in agreement with what you sayeth before, know that many are
those who carve out the same big black hole that everyone else has been
scraping around in. I just don't get the tone that makes me feel you're
saying this is the rule.) Or is me misinterpreting? (right, I probably
am, so don't...)

> I agree with Jon Abbey that there's some great improv happening now (and I would
> second the handful of his suggestions that I've heard), but what makes them
> important is that they are new uses of free improvisation outside of what's now
> become traditional.

Why sure. Then we agree.

So I don't think for a second that just because some disc says "FREE!
I'M FREE!!" means it's going to be transformative. Quite the contrary. I
think that improv is the furthest a musician can go, and so also the
most dangerous as far as what happens when they get there. So I'm picky
as hell. I get in these zones where the only thing I can stand for a two
month stretch is Cecil Taylor, and get everything else the fuck away
from me please. It's just how I operate. I've really only heard my
discog subjects and their side-people for the past two-plus years now.
I'm also working steadily toward the complete Cecil, with sidebars to
Malik, Braxton, and that's prety much it. I also just heard, by default,
AALY Trio w/ Vandermark's Hidden in The Stomach last month and that's
had me buzzing wildly. But I *often* get turned onto similar things that
just do not connect with me one witt. It's like my temporary focus-spots
do double-duty as blinders or something.

Anyway, there's a great deal of exceptional improv in the world. And
tons of shit. But we can say that about any realm.

Hey boys, that's all for me.

What Penguins?

Thanks,
RL
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv/Penguin (state subsidies)
Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:30:01 PST

Just a tidbit:

I had the opportunity to talk to Evan Parker once, in a group, and he
said that the advent of the Euro had been and would likely continue
making things tighter than they had in the past.  The day before this
conversation I heard Kevin Whitehead do a public reading from NEW DUTCH
SWING, and his little mini book tour, as well as the Dutch-represented
Empty Bottle Fest, was generously underwritten by the Dutch government.
It appears gilders--at LEAST--are still flying. And I don't know if Leo
Feigin is subsidized, but god bless that mofo, among many others.  Chris
Cutler too.  And Tim Berne. And JZ.  And anyone WITHOUT a crossover
audience.

--s
JBivins wrote:
I suppose the Euro/U.S. thing boils down, in many cases, to a
              question of
              funding. As most of us know, some of the major European
labels
              (like Hat)
              receive state funding, and a lot of promotions/booking
              organizations in
              regional scenes get buttloads of grant money. I was
shocked, on
              reading
              Kevin Whitehead's marvellous "New Dutch Swing", just how
many
              guilders
              were flyin' around at one point in the 70s and 80s

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv/Penguin
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:37:40 -0500



Tom Pratt wrote:

> the European free improvisors that pioneered the idiom
> are still around and playing while the Americans from that period seemed to
> have disappeared?

Hmm. Can Muhal Richard Abrams, Anthony Braxton, Joseph Jarman, Roscoe
Mitchell, Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, Milford Graves, and Andrew
Cyrille, just to grab names from immediate memory, be said to have
disappeared? It seems to me that most who are still alive (a number
which is, unfortunately, not as large as we might like) are still
quite visible and active.

--
---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Penguin/Improv/How Does Zorn Pay for It
Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:39:12 -0500 (EST)

> I've always wondered how it is that JZ manages (financially, that is) his
> prodigious output and label-overseeing. More power to him.

On the Tzadik radio hour promo he says that Tzadik is non-profit, which
I suppose means they get money from somewhere (?)  Or is it his money?

The money thing baffles me too, but his CDs always sell, even things
like Ganryu Island which by else wouldn't even be in most stores that I
know.

Another thing I've noticed is that less and less stuff seems to be coming
out on Avant and more and more on Tzadik.  I wonder if this is part of a
plan and/or if it means anything about how the label is doing
financially.  Maybe I'm thinking outloud, or does anyone have any ideas on
this?

WY


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 16 Dec 1998 01:43:54 -0500

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> We might argue on the added value of Gayle's achievements to free-jazz.

I have to admit I'm on Patrice's side here.  I just can't seem to get especially
engaged by most of the Gayle I've heard.  This proved somewhat problematic -
internally, of course, as I am a *professional* shill! - when I was the publicist
for the Knitting Factory, which of course feels that Gayle can do no wrong.

My own experience with live Gayle has been of a fairly inchoate blaster without
the sense of direction or internal logic one hears in either the classic '60s
tenors mentioned by Patrice or even such players as Parker, Brotzmann, Butcher and
the Rollins-modelled Ware at his best.

> > this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful of
> > the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
> > Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
> > performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision Festival
> > was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.
>
> I definitely missed these shows.

Me, too, in the case of the Parker-Ali shows.  And I've been feeling for years
that I need to hear the "Touchin' on Trane" disc if only for the critical
hosannas.  As for the Vision Festival performance, I'd agree that it was very
powerful.  (Jon didn't mention that the unheralded New Orleans free jazz pioneer
saxophonist Kidd Jordan was also part of that set... perhaps understandable as he
was woefully under-amplified.

I have only heard Gayle live a handful of times, but I've heard most of the
records.  Perhaps it is only when he is heard in the company of first rate
musicians that he truly shines... when I've heard him live, Vision Festival aside,
it's been with the likes of Vattel Cherry and Michael Wimberley, who are certainly
serviceable but no Parker or Ali.  I enjoyed his playing at the Vision Fest (even
if the performance did veer into performance art spectacle after Graves joined
Gayle at the piano and Gayle then moved to the drums).  I also enjoy Gayle's work
on Cecil Taylor's "Always a Pleasure."

But in general I fail to recognize Gayle's overall importance.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  Re: Free Jazz
Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:23:15 EST

Wow...some very interesting discussion of late!  I've tended to "lurk" around
in the mirk and not say a whole lot, mostly because there's no time...but
always enough time to read!  (Actually, most of my posts are more PR related,
as a person who is working actively to promote the music....I'm sure that
drives some people nuts, as this is really more of a discussion list)

I recomend that everyone check out the new Sabir Mateen Trio record on Eremite
(with our own killer Boston rythm team of John Voigt - bass and Laurence Cook
- drums!).  I personally think it's brilliantly sequenced, for one
thing...great dynamic variation and nice alternation between really great free
expression (everything from Sabir's completely original, completely grounded
individuality to that "ecstatic" NYC thing as someone put it, in the best
possible ways) with some broad strokes of the classicism of the 60's/70's
avante-garde.  Also check anything with Daniel Carter in it (most notably
"Other Dimensions in Music" where Carter is joined by Roy Cambell, W. Parker
and Rashid Bakr). Matin and Carter play also together in the group Test, along
with the brilliant young bass player Matt Heyner No Neck Blues, APSU Ensemble,
etc) and drummer Tom Bruno.  They are both exceptional multi-instrumentalists
(reeds, flute, trumpet, etc) who play off of each other and EVERYONE I''ve
ever seen them play with the amazing ability to make the OTHER sound better!
(And so, themselves...) They are also remarkably under-recorded given their
abilities and length of time on the scene in NY (both for well over 20 years,
if not 30).  If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with Carter
for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99), APSU Ensemble (which
features Daniel along with members of Test, The Gold Sparkle Band, etc),
nmperign (Bhob Rainey & Greg Kelley), drummer Tatsuya Nakatani, and x art-punk
guitarist turned prepared piano improvisor Roger Miller at a show I'm
organizing this Saturday 12/20.  Feel free to email me for info.

Though I could sing the praises of so many great NY free players, I'm really
proud to say that Boston has an absolutely THRIVING improv scene.  In many
ways, I'm much happier to be working, playing, and living here than in New
York (though I love NYC).  We have, of course, the more well known (and
brilliant!) players such as Joe and Mat Maneri, Joe Morris, the
afforementioned Voigt and Cook, etc, as well as a host of up and coming young
players/groups such as Saturnalia, Jane Wang, Dan DeChellis, Bhob Rainey, Greg
Kelley, Debris, etc.  A bunch of upstart labels, too, including my own
Sublingual label, Tautology, Sachimay, Hao Records...also larger ones like
Accurate, (Gunther Schuller's) GM....

    Other American labels that are consistently putting great free jazz out
(these guys are the saints of our times regarding their tireless mission for
this music) are Aum Fidelity, No More Records, Eremite...tons more, really,
but these are the most focused on what's been discussed so far...

The discussion of European vs. American players and sensilbilites was
interesting I thought....a common one on this list in the past 3 years I've
subscribed.  I love alot of the European guys, and yea, I think the funding
there has been better historically (though it's even getting grim there, I've
heard)  On the Euro side I think Mats Gustaffson is a great young sax player,
as is Gianni Gebbia...would like to get hipped to more string players there
though....suggestions?

ANYWAY, I'm like the guy who's been released from his 3 year silence
here...I'll stop rambling on....that's my 2 cents....

                            {}
                           {{}}
                        {{{{{}}}}}
                 Jonathan LaMaster
Sublingual Records & UnSound Productions
               [e-mail]
           http://www.sublingual.com
           {{}}                              {{}}
          {{}}                                {{}}

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: dragon blue/ thanks to the list
Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:20:44 -0800

sorry to break up the wonderful discussion on the merits, or
increasing lack thereof, of "free" music/jazz, but i have a
question im hoping someone might be able to answer..... but
FIRST!!
i would like to thnak everyone for the stimulating
discussions of late in the group.   very intellectual and
well recieved (by myself at least).... thanks for the good
reading material!

now my question......can anyone tell me more about Dragon
Blue?  are there any other releases other than HadesPark
(avant).  what about tenko...what else has she done???
thanks alot

patrick in portland


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: question about bible launcher
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:15:43 +0100

Hi Zornies,

I've been listening some time to bible launcher (Thank you Yves...)

But I have a little question about this album: why was it deleted (i
suppose copyright problems, isn't it?), what was the concept of this
album, does this band have other albums as well,....

Best wishes
--
Stefan Verstraeten

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 16 Dec 1998 03:15:41 -0500

William York wrote:

> > [Patrice wrote] Kids
> > who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
> > told them that there was music besides rock?
>
> I have all of these same suspicions, not to say that I don't like some of
> this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
> certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
> around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.

Yes, perhaps, but there's nothing really wrong with the paradigm of young and
impressionable listeners taking hints from those artists they've come to most
admire (read: trust).  It's probably the most common way that anyone comes to jazz
unless blessed with a jazz loving parent or parents who played it in the house,
I'd guess.

I mean, given how badly arts education SUCKS in American public schools (and I am
tightly focused on the USA, Patrice, so your mileage may vary), I'm amazed that
any young American comes to any music more esoteric than Sonic Youth and Black
Flag (I'm surely showing my age with that statement).  So if Henry or Thurston
lead someone to check out Charles Gayle or Matt Shipp or Sun Ra or whoever,
they've done more for expanding that kid's mind than his/her education did.

I really do believe that.  My own way into jazz was when I heard Peter Criss
(original drummer of Kiss and my first idol, for those who don't recognize the
name) took a few lessons with Gene Krupa.   I therefore HAD to check out Krupa.
That early experience set the stage.  Later, it was like Sting mentioned "In a
Silent Way" or Bill Bruford said "you must hear 'A Love Supreme.'"  I did exactly
as they suggested, and it was valuable advice.

To address Patrice's strongly-worded post, I don't view the phenomenon as any kind
of WASP guilt... more that the options are not laid out in the educational system
and certainly not in the mass media, so if someone hears about a musician or style
from a favorite "popular" musician it's a blessing and perhaps one of the few
solutions to the above mentioned obstacles available.

> I was just listening to the recent William
> Parker In Order To Survive CD, which is good, but compared to Nefertiti,
> done 37 years earlier, I don't know.  I feel like it (Parker's stuff) gets
> more predictable and has more of a tendency to dead end than what Taylor
> and co. were doing, which to me is not a sign of refinement.

I've enjoyed the Parker CD you mention more than any previous Parker-led release
I've heard (not that many, I admit), but I see the point you make.

Yes, the "language" (I'm going to extrapolate on this notion, so bear with me)
used on that record, and many others, including all David S. Ware records and all
Charles Gayle records, and many, many others, is a language that has existed for
quite a long time, and so, while there may not be very many free jazz repertory
bands, there in fact are a great number of bands playing music in a language that
was developed many years ago.

Language is perhaps an important distinction, though... Don DeLillo's "Underworld"
is written in the same language as was "Middlemarch," and yet we don't fault
DeLillo for having not invented a completely new language in which to to say the
things he said in the book - and what he *said* was in fact new.

Are written/spoken languages really that much different from those languages given
voice in music?

After all, in music such languages do also develop.  The period of
Haydn-Mozart-early Beethoven is known in music history jargon as the "Era of
Common Practice" because all composers were in fact supposed to stick to the
commonly-accepted rules.  That this probably had quite a lot to do with the fact
that their work was funded by moneyed aristocrats just indicates that the general
rule has always been "give the people (paying customers) what they want..."

But once a language is developed, it does not totally negate the possibililty of
an artist making a completely new statement worth hearing.  If Ware or Gayle
speaks the language of Coltrane, it doesn't mean he's not *saying* something new.
If Berne speaks the language of Hemphill it doesn't mean he can't create something
you needn't "read" or that Hemphill didn't "say."  If Fugazi sounds like Wire it
doesn't mean there's nothing worth "reading" in their work.

(Of course, popular tastes change with the times.  If a young composer wrote a
genuinely beautiful new piece in the language of Mozart today, he/she'd surely be
widely ridiculed, even if the piece was as fine as Mozart's six final
symphonies... this gets into the music critic's demand for "the shock for the
new.")

William is right to point out that [free improv] "has avoided reportory, but a lot
of it reaches the same conclusions in terms of the dynamics and development (I
know its wrong to generalize but...)."  He's exactly right and it's not a
generalization.  But there is a place for artists who create new music in a
familiar language - I think Braxton, for all of his esoteric vagueness in general,
really hit the nail on the head with his "restructuralist" and "stylist"
appelations - and if an artist is creating valuable music in 1998 in a language
generally invented in the '60s (or earlier) it's still valuable music, perhaps all
the more so if it's the first music in this style to engage the imagination of the
new listener sent to it by suggestion or education or whatever.

And perhaps this is also merely a sort of nostalgia, but while I appreciate why
Tom Pratt may never again buy another solo Bailey disc due to knowing in advance
what it will bring, it is for the same reason exactly that I will never miss one.
I know the language well, but won't miss the latest diary entry.  And Bailey's is
a more personal language than most, but there are certainly others trying to speak
it at least on occasion.

(It doesn't escape my notice, however, that this is more or less the exact same
reason I will eventually be going to see the new Star Trek movie.)

Just thinking out loud,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: not list related: ralph steadman
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:17:44 +0100 (MET)

i hope someone from this list can help me. OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!
i am looking for a book of illustrations by ralph steaman.
there is a lot of stuff out there by him, that can be found on amazon for
example, but it coesnt say if these are books full of pictures or
biographies or whatever. can someone name the title of a book that mainly
consists of his illustrations??????

thanx

BJOERN
ps: answer privately


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Free Jazz
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:01:35 -0500



     Fine discussion; nice to get everyone's blood flowing once in a while.
     FWIW, I largely agree with Patrice's original post and share the
     opinion, implied by some, that the Gayle/Parker/Aum Fidelity axis is,
     at least, highly over-rated; Patrice's "guilty WASP" comment and
     William's observation on faux-spirituality are both, IMO, dead on.
     Joseph's listing of free improv predictabilities superbly captured
     aspects of a disturbing number of performances I've seen and heard
     (though I try to keep Sturgeon's Law in mind at all times).

     I don't go quite as far as Patrice (if it's an accurate assessment of
     his stance) that free improv is completely played out; I still come
     across new (to me) areas for investigation, which this past year would
     include Braxton's 'Compositions 10 + 16' and a concert at Roulette by
     Polwechsel which concentrated to great extent on small sounds. As long
     as creative musical minds continue to come along _who decide to go
     into_ free improv, I don't see any reason why the art form won't
     continue to be viable, just as I don't expect good conversationalists
     to disappear. A question might be whether or not those minds will, in
     fact, go in that direction, or whether they'll view that arena as
     overworked and barren. I'm not quite so sanguine, unfortunately, about
     the future of jazz (as commonly defined), but that's another story.

     Brian Olewnick

     (who, with two weeks left, still has Bailey's 'Takes Fakes and Dead
     She Dances' at the top of his Year's Best list)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:29:33 -0800

what is the url for the avant site?

Thanks

JT

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:38:11 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tom Pratt wrote:

> Think of all that we attack Wynton Marsalis for - trying to keep alive an
> old form of music that we believe to be dead. We accuse him of not
> causing any true musical progress. Well, the music Wynton is trying to
> uphold was as innovative at the time as free improv and avant-garde
> jazz was in the 60's.

hard bop was never about innovation.  it was all about refinement.  and
marsalis wasn't playing music during that period.  neither were any of
his contemporaries.  according to the rough guide to jazz, gayle has been
involved with the free jazz scene since the seventies.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: new question bible launcher
Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:38:14 +0100

Hi,
after some search on infoseek, i found the following page:
http://www.radhs.com/bibleL.html

So the bible launcher that was supposed to come out on tzadik but never
did (only some copies were made) seems to be bible launcher part two.

Does anyone has some info on the first bible launcher cd???

Best wishes
--
Stefan Verstraeten
NP F.L.C. 100% Columbian (I know it, it is mainstream, but I dig it)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: new question bible launcher
Date: 16 Dec 1998 08:54:59 -0600

I think the one on Tzadik just ended up being a rerelease
of the other one, though I don't know for sure.
The sample track on that site is on the Tzadik release.
However, the site mentions that the other release is over
an hour long, while the Tzadik one is about 50 minutes.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:09:35 -0500 (EST)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, William York wrote:

> I have all of these same suspicions, not to say that I don't like some of
> this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
> certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
> around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.

by the same token, i can't believe that anyone would begrudge shipp the
popularity!  is he only worthwhile if he's totally obscured?  i mean,
rollins may be into shipp, but when shipp's string trio played here in
d.c. there weren't anymore people (give or take ten) in attendance than
at any other improv show around here.  shipp isn't making money
hand-over-fist by any means.  seems like the argument i've been hearing
on this list is that unless a listener was born into free improv, you
have no right discovering from the likes of thurston or rollins.  that's
pure snobbery!  if improv is dying, as patrice asserts, then it's because
of attitudes like that and not artistic stagnation.

> > to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?"  (or
> > even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?")  i
>
> Eck, are you serious! There's certainly a bigger difference in Berne,
> like w/ Bloodcount, and Hemphill (or Fugazi and Wire) than Gayle/Ware and
> Coltrane/Ayler.  Is there not? I was just listening to the recent William
> Parker In Order To Survive CD, which is good, but compared to Nefertiti,
> done 37 years earlier, I don't know.  I feel like it (Parker's stuff) gets
> more predictable and has more of a tendency to dead end than what Taylor
> and co. were doing, which to me is not a sign of refinement.

sure there is a difference between wire and fugazi.  that was my whole
point.  both are punk bands, yet just because there is a decade's
difference between them that does not invalidate fugazi.  should people
stop making music within the punk idiom because someone has already made
punk rock?  seeing in order to survive *quartet* live, i never made the
connection between and taylor's piano-sax-drums *trio*.  hell, just
watching susie ibarra should clue you in to the continuing vitality of
improvisation.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: not list related: ralph steadman
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:47:48 EST

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hiya there,
    I saw that Steadman book at the Quimby's in Chicago recently...Lots of pics
and lots of writings...  Definately worth checking out if your any sort of fan
of his work or Hunter's.  Quite pricey though...I believe about $50 but the
book is thick (probably about 4x's the size of a Robert Williams.) Aloha!

Hey i arrived late on here so I'm not sure if anyone caught Masada in Portland
about 6 weeks ago.  I have a audio tape of the performance if anyone is
interested in trading.

--part0_913823269_boundary--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dock Boggs & Bluegrass [tangent from the 'penguin' free jazz thread]
Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:55:19 EST

In a message dated 98-12-15 19:05:54 EST, you write:
> i say that it stems from a tradition, just as
>(bluegrass banjo player) roscoe holcomb was influenced by (bluegrass banjo
>player) dock boggs.

Normally, I wouldn't strike the pedantic pose here, but since this thread is,
at least in part, one of definitions and hair-splitting, what the heck. Dock
(yes, with a "k") Boggs' banjo style, later an influence on some bluegrass
pickers, was not bluegrass in itself [and "folk" musician Holcomb can pick
bluegrass, but very rarely does]. It was rooted in old-time/clawhammer
appalachian playing, and though his finger positioning conformed at an early
date to what would later be used by bluegrass players, the results (and
techniques he used) were never what would be considered "bluegrass," any more
than what Louis Armstrong was doing in the late '20s would be considered bop.

OK, so much for the tangent few give a shit about besides myself. . .

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin/Improv/How Does Zorn Pay for It
Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:37:15 -0600 (CST)


According to William York:
>
> > I've always wondered how it is that JZ manages (financially, that is) his
> > prodigious output and label-overseeing. More power to him.
>
> On the Tzadik radio hour promo he says that Tzadik is non-profit, which
> I suppose means they get money from somewhere (?)  Or is it his money?

Don't misread "non-profit" that doesn't mean what you would expect.
Tzadik might well make money and be non-profit.  They just have
to put it back into the company rather than disbursing bonuses
to all the fat cat execs.  (I'm far from an expert on this, so
don't take this as gospel.  But don't get fooled by the "non-profit"
label.  Paul Newman, for example, might advertise that all the
profits from his various food enterprises go to charity, but
that doesn't mean that he doesn't make anything.  It just means
that *after* all the salaries are paid - including his, which
could be immense - and all the expenses, and all the monies for
development, etc. are disbursed, then the pennies that are left
go to charity.)

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Free Jazz
Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:40:15 -0800


A little clarification to my fairly harsh mail.

On Wed, 16 Dec 98 09:01:35 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>      I don't go quite as far as Patrice (if it's an accurate assessment of
>      his stance) that free improv is completely played out; I still come

I was not going so far. I believe improvisation as being one the many tools
a composer can use to write great music. Based on the talent and imagination
of the artist, it can lead to the best or to the worst (although for some
die-hard anything out of improv cannot be bad...).

My main beef was about presenting the usual free-improv format as new,
cutting-edge, breakthrough, fresh, etc. The problem is that too much of
free-improv these days does not add anything to what has already been
done, but still expects (read the flyers, the liner notes, the reviews)
to be in the "cutting-edge" bucket.

A few people mentioned interesting names. Jim O'Rourke, for example, is
somebody who felt that free-improv was in a dead end and decided to use
part of the idiom and move it in a different direction (by his refusal
to use the cliches of the genre -- you remember how annoyed some people
were because he did not want to play according to the rules? many even
said that he did not know how to improvise). Martin Tetreault is hardly
somebody that I would put under free-improv. He has more to do with
electro-acoustic/DJ music than anything else.

I was not thinking at all about artists trying to pull free-improv in new
directions (which is a good reason for me to admire them). In fact, I
think these artists (such as Jim O'Rourke, Zorn in the late '70s,(when
he designed his game pieces), etc) are/were creating a new genre and are
just put in the "free-improv" bucket for practical reasons.

    Patrice.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide
Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:50:08 EST


In a message dated 12/16/98 1:56:15 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<> > this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful
of
> > the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
> > Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
> > performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision
Festival
> > was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.

As for the Vision Festival performance, I'd agree that it was very
powerful.  (Jon didn't mention that the unheralded New Orleans free jazz
pioneer
saxophonist Kidd Jordan was also part of that set... perhaps understandable as
he
was woefully under-amplified.>>

Just to clarify here, I didn't mention Jordan because I wasn't talking about
the quartet performance at this year's festival. I was talking about the trio
performance at the first festival, two or three years ago, which was an
infinitely more powerful set. Gayle may never hit the heights that he hit in
that show again, since by all accounts, he's disappointing now, and hasn't
especially impressed me the last few times I've seen him. the only record of
his (and I've heard most of them) that's truly satisfying is Touchin' On
Trane. check this out before you write him off. and seeing him live at the old
Knitting Factory when he first reemerged, or at the Cooler with Parker and
Ali, was a deeply moving experience.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Free Jazz
Date: 16 Dec 1998 13:02:51 EST


In a message dated 12/16/98 12:42:06 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Martin Tetreault is hardly  somebody that I would put under free-improv. He
has more to do with electro-acoustic/DJ music than anything else.>>

the CD I mentioned in this thread was recorded live, in one take. the set that
you and I both saw in Victoriaville was no more planned than any Ware or Shipp
set, probably less. Tetreault is a member of the London Musician's Collective
and plays over there in the improvising scene occasionally.

if you're going to say improv is dead, and then claim anyone doing anything
different in terms of improv is a part of a different genre, then of course
you'e not going to find anything new.

if your point is that the "ecstatic" NY axis of jazz is basically creatively
bankrupt, as I said before, I pretty much agree. I almost literally fell
asleep during Matthew Shipp's trio set in Victo last year. on the other hand,
the new William Parker set is pretty great, as others have mentioned. what's
the big deal? if you're not getting anything out of this scene, just move onto
other kinds of music that are pushing the envelope, including other strains of
improv. there are plenty out there, believe me.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[4]: Free Jazz
Date: 16 Dec 1998 13:24:43 -0500


Patrice wrote:

>I was not going so far. I believe improvisation as being one the many tools
>a composer can use to write great music. Based on the talent and
>imagination of the artist, it can lead to the best or to the worst
>(although for some die-hard anything out of improv cannot be bad...).

     Thanks for clearing that up and sorry for my incomplete understanding.
     You're clearly correct above. I imagine what sometimes riles you (and
     I) and kind of what started this thread, as I recall, is when someone
     using a fixed rating system gives the highest possible ranking to a,
     let's say, decent enough but unspectacular (IMHO) release like Ware's
     'Godspelized', implying that it's the equal of anything ever done in
     the genre. It makes you wonder about the critical judgment being
     exercised.

     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 16 Dec 1998 14:47:33 -0500 (EST)

Steve Smith wrote:
> Yes, perhaps, but there's nothing really wrong with the paradigm of young and
> impressionable listeners taking hints from those artists they've come to most
> admire (read: trust).  It's probably the most common way that anyone comes to jazz
> unless blessed with a jazz loving parent or parents who played it in the house,
> I'd guess.
>
I agree with this completely, and I appreciate these efforts because it
has brought a lot more live music to my town and more awareness for this
music in general. I suppose its frustrating to see the same people, the
AUM Fidelity crowd (who I do like but just not THAT much) get the
attention over and over, in comparison to, for example, the names Jon
Abbey mentioned.  And then hearing people thinking its new, when they
haven't even listened to or heard of Cecil Taylor is strange to say the
least.

I wonder if these AUM guys realize how fickle most of the indie-rock
crowd is though (how many people in this age groupwere listening to John
Fahey or Kraftwerk five years ago?) - I don't know how long this little
resurgence will last but I'm thinking its at a peak right about now.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 15 Dec 1998 16:19:16 -0500

> I mean, given how badly arts education SUCKS in American public schools (and I am
> tightly focused on the USA, Patrice, so your mileage may vary), I'm amazed that
> any young American comes to any music more esoteric than Sonic Youth and Black
> Flag (I'm surely showing my age with that statement).  So if Henry or Thurston
> lead someone to check out Charles Gayle or Matt Shipp or Sun Ra or whoever,
> they've done more for expanding that kid's mind than his/her education did.

I agree completely! I'm 17 and am a high school senior. I've *always* had an intense
fascination with music but my interest in anything I listen to now never would have
come about if I had stayed at a public school. I moved to a private for high school
and the strong jazz program there exposed me in some great stuff like Mingus and
Coltrane which I led further and further into more free/avant/20th century/ethno....
I had no idea that jazz was anything worthwhile. I didn't avoid it, I just don't think
I knew it really existed. Something needs to provide that spark and if Henry Rollins
or Thurston Moore can, then that's wonderful! Of course being all arty and avant-garde
is cool among my generation so you have to question one's intent.

And of course we can still make fun of them!

                                        -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Howard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:48:16 -0600

As a digest reader I am kinda catching up to the amazing free jazz
discussion. I have to say the new Charles Gayle (Daily Bread) really changes
his modus operandi, there is a great deal of variety from song to song, even
improv string quartets(!), he has cut down the song lengths (something he
has been veering towards) and his horn playing is not as assaultive.  Now I
LIKE assaultive, but at times it did get samey (as I think Steve Smith
said). He also fares better with better musicians around him.  Touching on
Trane and Kingdom Come (with Sunny Murray) are the best.
Whoever mentioned religiosity in the debate (Patrice?) was onto something.
Gayle's has become very oppressive, and the liner notes to Daily Bread are
particularly bad. In their own way as bad as the hideous rant in the Victo
album. Yikes.
On the Ware tip, he always changes from album to album and I think he sorta
avoids nostalgia in that way. Godspelized is, to my ears, the most retro of
all of his albums, Dao is much better, it doesn't so much copy Coltrane as
much as it moves beyond were he was around the time of Live In Seattle. A
form of jazz that lay fallow, in a sense, for a while.
Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
what) it communicates to them.  Recently I have improv-ed in front of
several audiences that just sit there, and then afterwards come up and tell
us how great we were. Either they are lying, or they aren't listening.  Its
not like I expect them to jump up and down, but they just don't *react*.  I
can't explain it better then that. Sorry for going on. Back to the more
intelligent commentary. john

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:47:00 -0300

John Howard wrote:
>
> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

[well, maybe I have a little time for this...;-)]
Hey, I have this urge to go back into my head about twenty-five years ago,
when I first began listening to this music. I wish I could remember on what
level I heard it, or felt it, or comprehended it-- but I can't. I was 19 in
'72, when I heard the first Weather Report disc and a Braxton recording, I
don't recall which, and I ended up going after whatever it was they were
doing (did I "know?") for a few years. And I'd say I was "in the area" of
improv through '76 or so, then frittered off elsewhere...

Anyway, when I finally got back to it (I mean as far as really DIVING in, not
just checking it out now and then as I had over the ensuing decades) it was
around '94, and upon revisiting this realm I was astonished at how much my
listening experience had made this music (in its best moments, like Taylor's
UNIT STRUCTURES ferinstance) sound so perfectly spooled out that it now
seemed as if it were preordained-- so logical and articulate were the moments
tumbling out of my speakers. So, right, of course my roads travelled
musically over the years had deepened my listening ability, but I wish I
could remember what it felt like back in my youth, enough to do a
side-by-side-- to really look at that change. But I can't.

Has anyone out there had any progressions of this kind that they can actually
recall enough to talk about the differences?

I think this stems from the fact that I regularly give my 22-year-old son
tapes and CDs that I'm listening to, and I wish I could crawl into *his* head
and know what it's doing to him. The boy says he loves it...

Just wondering...
Rrrrr
--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and
Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000
Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:50:12 -0500

> Whoever mentioned religiosity in the debate (Patrice?) was onto something.
> Gayle's has become very oppressive, and the liner notes to Daily Bread are
> particularly bad. In their own way as bad as the hideous rant in the Victo
> album. Yikes.

I've heard from a few people that Gayle is anti-homosexual for religious
reasons. Is there any truth to that? I know this sort of borders on gossip and
may be unethical to post to a public list but if it's something well known that
Gayle is open about...

Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Gayle referred to his new album
(Daily Bread?) as "nice but it's been done before." Maybe Gayle himself agrees
with Steve and others after all! (:

                                -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: One more thing about free jazz/Ellery Eskelin's new CD
Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:19:20 -0500 (EST)

> > this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
> > certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
> > around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.
>
> by the same token, i can't believe that anyone would begrudge shipp the
> popularity!  is he only worthwhile if he's totally obscured?  i mean,
> rollins may be into shipp, but when shipp's string trio played here in
> d.c. there weren't anymore people (give or take ten) in attendance than

That's why I put popularity in quotes, because no one doing this is
popular by most people's standards.  And I could see how you might take
these comments as snobbery, because I certainly wasn't born into this
stuff.  But from my point of view, working at a college radio station,
Shipp/Parker/Ware get about as much attention as anybody else in improv
combined (excepting people who have played in Tortoise or Gastr del Sol).
I hear just about every release they put out and many others, and while
they are not consistently 'better' than others (including Gerry Hemingway,
Dave Douglas, Gianni Gebbia, Georg Graewe, Derek Bailey, even Zorn), they
are more well known whether people actually like them or not.  Part of
this owes to their persistance in pursuing college radio, so in some ways
they've earned it.

Anyway, on the topic of improv related things I was wondering if anyone
else has heard the newest Ellery Eskelin/Jim Black/Andrea Parkins CD on
hatology.  I think its great, an improvement on the one from last year. He
has talked about wanting to avoid the traditional dynamics of improv and
structures his music out in interesting ways.  I don't think his writing
is quite on the level as his tenor playing - that would be saying a
lot - but its still interesting and seems to be coninually improving.  I'm
surprised his name doesn't pop up on this list a little more often

Oh, one more thing about Tzadik I forgot to say, he also said it was
profit sharing or something to that effect.  My point was that I don't see
how on earth they could be breaking even on anything but the Zorn CDs and
a few others, and their output is so high (4-5 a month) it just amazes me
how they keep it up - maybe grants or something.  Anyway, enough from me..


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eric <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wadada Leo Smith on Tzadik
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:39:40 -0500

Hi guys,

I was wondering what people think of Wadada's disc on Tzadik.  I glanced at
it briefly today, and I saw that it has a Toru Takemitsu tribute of some
kind?  The reason I'm asking for people's reactions is that I recently
picked up Smith's disc with N'Da Kulture ('Golden Hearts Remembrance'), and
I was kinda disappointed by it.  I've enjoyed most of Smith's previous
work, but judging from this release, perhaps he needs some more warming up?
 Just wondering.  The Tzadik disc looks exciting.

Thanks for any help,
Eric.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 17 Dec 1998 01:58:06 -0500 (EST)



On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote
Another thing, one of the
by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.  Recently I have improv-ed in front of
> several audiences that just sit there, and then afterwards come up and tell
> us how great we were. Either they are lying, or they aren't listening.  Its
> not like I expect them to jump up and down, but they just don't *react*.  I
> can't explain it better then that. Sorry for going on. Back to the more
> intelligent commentary. john
>
Could it be that rather then not critically engaging it on some personal
level they just don't have the experience to communicate their cognitive
and somatic reasons.  Who was it, LAurie Anderson ?, who said "writing
about music is like dancing about architechture" and that would
subsequently hold true for speaking about it (and doing so to the musicain
who just finished performing it who you don't know personally probably
only amplifies it).  Even on this list where plenty of extremely
insightful and educated musical commentary goes on, few descriptions of
music attempt to describe in musical terms or spiritual terms what
the interplay of voices achieved at specific moments in live improv or
other simililarly difficult musical experiences had at their core.
This relates back to the recent education issue, not only does the
standard education (or resources to educate yourself) deprive students of
a lot of valuable music but it does not encourage people to verbally
express musical experiences.
In the end if these "indie kids" really don't get anything out of
it after a lengthy experimental period other than a feeling that somehow
it is benefiting them by osmosis they'll tire of it and leave you with
less people paying the cover.

Chris Tonelli


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: new question bible launcher
Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:49:48 -0800

>I think the one on Tzadik just ended up being a rerelease
>of the other one, though I don't know for sure.
>The sample track on that site is on the Tzadik release.
>However, the site mentions that the other release is over
>an hour long, while the Tzadik one is about 50 minutes.

 I have the original (never knew the Tzadik release saw the light of day)
and the original is 62 minutes. I think the Tzadik one is the "censored"
version, where they removed a lot of the samples of the preachers for fear
of getting sued. Which would honestly destroy the listening pleasure of
this CD for me.

 mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant website
Date: 17 Dec 1998 13:06:57 +0100

> From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
> Subject: avant
>
> what is the url for the avant site?

As far as I know, the label doesn't have an official website.

The best thing to do is go to
http://www.forcedexposure.com
and then browse by label.

Hope this helps.
--
Stefan Verstraeten
NP William Hooker: Mindfulness (with Dj Olive) hip stuff, man

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Re: Gayle
Date: 17 Dec 1998 13:43:11 GMT0BST

While the comparision with Ayler will be misunderstood/perceived as
odious, I must say that Gayle's quartets in 1993 with William Parker
represent a purple patch for me: I feel the same way about Ayler in
1964, tho' I haven't much time for the rest of his work ...

Oh, and recently someone asked about Stanko's Leosia (re; Penguin
recommendation) ... I like it, but it isn't much better than Matka
Joanna ... in fact, live recordings of this band seem preferable to
me, partly because they seem to medley all the pieces. Thus, the
improvisations bridge two different pieces, and have a dynamism
where the albums sometimes sound a bit static.  Also: they're pretty
wild live!

Sean (unsubscribing for Xmas)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: One more thing about free jazz
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:55:33 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, William York wrote:

> That's why I put popularity in quotes, because no one doing this is
> popular by most people's standards.  And I could see how you might take
> these comments as snobbery, because I certainly wasn't born into this
> stuff.  But from my point of view, working at a college radio station,
> Shipp/Parker/Ware get about as much attention as anybody else in improv
> combined

all i can say is that those guys prove it on the road.  i saw william
parker here in d.c. 3 times in the last 18 months and matthew shipp was
here twice.  they are willing to tour and it pays off.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:39:50 -0600 (CST)

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, DR S WILKIE wrote:

> While the comparision with Ayler will be misunderstood/perceived as
> odious, I must say that Gayle's quartets in 1993 with William Parker
> represent a purple patch for me: I feel the same way about Ayler in
> 1964, tho' I haven't much time for the rest of his work ...

This may be a regional idiom thing: does "a purple patch" mean you liked
it, you didn't like it, or it sounded like Prince?

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:01:28 -0600 (CST)

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Dan Given wrote:

> Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
> less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
> really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
> things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
> things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
> newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
> Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
> and out as needed.

Yup, I find that too. In pulling together a list of favorite music (a
thread which is happening on the phiba-improv list (though, fortunately,
not as as much of a torrent as happened here a while back)), I find that
the stuff that I listen to most on CD doesn't correlate with what I think
is the best. I tend to listen to stuff that is easily familiar when I'm
not doing a serious listen, which means that I tend to get to pop stuff
easily while my "not listened to yet" rack has bunches of Cecil Taylor,
crunchy electroacoustics, sound poetry, and the like. I don't seem to have
time for much full-attention listening nowadays.

I find that different musics work well on CD as opposed to live. Comma's
next CD (if all goes as planned) will be ah hour-long piece that I
particularly envision as a recording. It's somewhat steady-state though
gradually evolving, and I don't know that an audience would want to sit
still for the whole thing; it also should retain its coherence for people
who wander in  and out of attention, as the home/work listener tends to.
Similarly, we do some work live that I don't think would work as well as a
CD for repeated listening, or would be a very different experience as a
recording.

On the other hand, I'm listening to the Braxton Willisau right now at
work, where it's making the transition for full-attention material to
familiarity -- though I do keep stopping to listen harder and steal ideas
:-)

- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: One more thing about free jazz
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:55:33 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, William York wrote:

> That's why I put popularity in quotes, because no one doing this is
> popular by most people's standards.  And I could see how you might take
> these comments as snobbery, because I certainly wasn't born into this
> stuff.  But from my point of view, working at a college radio station,
> Shipp/Parker/Ware get about as much attention as anybody else in improv
> combined

all i can say is that those guys prove it on the road.  i saw william
parker here in d.c. 3 times in the last 18 months and matthew shipp was
here twice.  they are willing to tour and it pays off.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new question bible launcher
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:49:53 -0800

I have the Tzadik release.  I bought it new in a regular retail store, so
I'd assume it saw a regular release at one time.  The disc timing is 49:35.
I don't know it's edited or whether it's new material, but I can say that it
contains some of the most vile evangelistic blather I've ever heard.  Maybe
the thing to do Michael, would be to do a tape trade so we could compare
versions.

One more tidbit about the Tzadik version: the catalog number - Tzadik TZ
7402, is now assigned to Ken Butler's _Voices Of Anxious Objects_ (a very
fine and fun album by the way).  Why did Zorn (or whoever is in charge of
such matters) assign a new CD the same catalog number as an old deleted one?
Is he trying to pretend this never existed?  If so, why?

- Dave

-----Original Message-----


>>I think the one on Tzadik just ended up being a rerelease
>>of the other one, though I don't know for sure.
>>The sample track on that site is on the Tzadik release.
>>However, the site mentions that the other release is over
>>an hour long, while the Tzadik one is about 50 minutes.
>
> I have the original (never knew the Tzadik release saw the light of day)
>and the original is 62 minutes. I think the Tzadik one is the "censored"
>version, where they removed a lot of the samples of the preachers for fear
>of getting sued. Which would honestly destroy the listening pleasure of
>this CD for me.
>
> mike
>[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Music/Arts Education
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:42:29 -0500


Chris Tonelli wrote:

>This relates back to the recent education issue, not only does the
>standard education (or resources to educate yourself) deprive students of
>a lot of valuable music but it does not encourage people to verbally
>express musical experiences.
>In the end if these "indie kids" really don't get anything out of
>it after a lengthy experimental period other than a feeling that somehow
>it is benefiting them by osmosis they'll tire of it and leave you with
>less people paying the cover.

it really is too bad that music/arts education is overlooked in the U.S.

i remember when i was in 8th grade we had this music class where we did things like
listen
to popular music ( an example at the time was Steve Wonder's "Living For The City")
and discuss
what the lyrics were getting at.

we also would listen to orchestral music and attempt to identifiy the
instuments...and discuss their
respective functions.

i thought it was pretty damn cool.

does _anything_ like this go on in schools anymore?

by the way, this was at a middle school right down the hill from Braxton's Wesleyan
in Middletown, CT.

--
Mark Saleski - [e-mail]    "Everything you can imagine is real."  --
Picasso



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 11:29:15 -0800

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Dan Given
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:25 AM

> I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a
> friend's house,
> and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record
> once.

Here ya go: (interview conducted by Ben Watson for _The Wire_, Issue 178,
December 1998)

[After listening to Nancarrow's "Study for Player Piano No. 42," with other
comments about the piece deleted, including how he doesn't understand "the
whole culture of listening to records"]:

"If you could only play a record once, imagine the intensity you'd have to
bring to the listening! In the same way that if I play something, I can only
play it once. There might be a great similarity between each time I play,
but I cannot repeat what I play. If you could only listen to it once, don't
you think it might concentrate the eardrums?"

Too much time on my hands,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:48:43 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote:

> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

gee, i wonder if you could make your generalizations any broader?  you
sound like an old curmudgeon.  "why kids these days don't listen to
improv correctly..."  what a load of crap!  god forbid that anyone
younger than 45 start listening to improv.  i think this would fall under
zorn's "jazz snob eat..." category.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Yves Dewulf <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new question bible launcher
Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:26:35 +0100


> I have the original (never knew the Tzadik release saw the light of day)
> and the original is 62 minutes. I think the Tzadik one is the "censored"
> version, where they removed a lot of the samples of the preachers for fear
> of getting sued. Which would honestly destroy the listening pleasure of
> this CD for me.

  So why did Tzadik delete it, if it was already heavily censored ?

  YVes

  P.S. How many tracks are there on the original ?

   -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:58:56 -0800

Ok now. A broad generalization would be a very bad thing. I'll try to be
charitable enough to read "some" when John says "they". Honestly, I have
seen this same phenomenon. I have seen it enough that I have become
frustrated to the point of not discussing music with people my age at these
kinds of performances. I've seen a kind of anti-criticism phenomenon going
on in people at or under my age. It doesn't seem to be driven by any kind
of idea other than maybe a tender sensitivity to examination.
    At the same time, I am a very passive listener. I make no movements or
other external indicators of being involved in the music. I can't even
speak when I listen. I stand there silently with hostility to any kind of
distraction and I resist discussion or reaction in the few tender moments
of silence that follow a piece. My feelings are best represented by this
line from T.S. Eliot's poem, "Portrait of a Lady"

        So intimate, this Chopin, that I think his soul
        Should be resurrected only among friends
        Some two or three, who will not touch the bloom
        That is rubbed and questioned in the concert room.

    I only mention my personal listening strategy because of what John said
about the static and seemingly vacuous approach of "po-mo indie kids" to
music appreciation. His description resembled my own approach to much to
not defend.
    But I have seen this approach to improv and noise music. I have known
people that put on performances in which they intended to duplicate that
kind of music, when they really didn't think of it as anything more than an
easy way to get onstage.
----------
> From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:48 AM
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote:
>
> > Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids
liking the
> > music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> > uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> > a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome",
they
> > know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether
(or
> > what) it communicates to them.
>
> gee, i wonder if you could make your generalizations any broader?  you
> sound like an old curmudgeon.  "why kids these days don't listen to
> improv correctly..."  what a load of crap!  god forbid that anyone
> younger than 45 start listening to improv.  i think this would fall under

> zorn's "jazz snob eat..." category.
>
> b
>
> -

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: what is Marty Ehrlich up to these days?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:24:17 -0800


    I just realized that Marty Ehrlich has been quite "discographically"
silent these past few years. Anybody (from the city) knows what is he up to
these days?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn and Lacy ex-equo
Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:32:50 -0800


    About ten years ago, in an interview, John Zorn was making fun at
Steve Lacy and Anthony Braxton for putting out so many records.

    This month, John has reached 243 records with his name on. This
number happens to be the one that Steve Lacy has been stuck to for a
quite a while (his production having cooled down quite a bit in the past
two years).

    Patrice (who has time to waste with such anecdotal facts...).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tony Reif <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:13:37 -0800


>Yes, the "language" (I'm going to extrapolate on this notion, so bear with me)
>used on that record, and many others, including all David S. Ware records
>and all
>Charles Gayle records, and many, many others, is a language that has
>existed for
>quite a long time, and so, while there may not be very many free jazz
>repertory
>bands, there in fact are a great number of bands playing music in a
>language that
>was developed many years ago.
>
>Language is perhaps an important distinction, though... Don DeLillo's
>"Underworld"
>is written in the same language as was "Middlemarch," and yet we don't fault
>DeLillo for having not invented a completely new language in which to to
>say the
>things he said in the book - and what he *said* was in fact new.
>
>Are written/spoken languages really that much different from those
>languages given
>voice in music?

Steve, you've got me thinking about this, and it seems to me that they're
both similar and different in some important ways. Certainly both language
and music are parts of the pre-existing social system and culture that
we're born into and that shape our identities. But everyone speaks a
language, not everyone plays music. And the semantic nets of language -
whether straightforward prose or anything other than "concrete" or "random"
poetry (if the latter exists...the equivalent perhaps of Cage's methods of
determining musical pitches by chance?) - are different from the structures
and means by which music affects us. Unless we're talking about program
music, film music etc., music doesn't have to represent anything; it's a
thing in itself and not an arbitrary system of sounds-as-signs (even most
onomatopoeic words are not close sonic representations of what they
signify...just see how much they vary from language to language). And of
course music and language are processed in different parts of the brain (is
anyone here a neurologist? what's the current understanding about how music
is perceived and made meaningful?) So to say that musics are languages is
to use a metaphor that may obscure some of the differences. I sometimes
think that music is an escape from language...

It's debatable whether American writers of the 1990s are using the same
language as British writers of the mid-19th century, but in any case they
haven't invented a new languge, whereas it is possible to invent/discover
new systems of music and music-making (say, serialism, or computer
musics...or free improv). BTW a society *can* very quickly evolve a new
language system under certain conditions. Creoles - hybrid languages with
their own, new grammar (as distinct from pidgin "languages" whose grammar I
think is pretty much the same in all cases, and very very simple) - are I
believe usually created by the young in a single generation, but it's a
communal process; a language can't exist if it's socially incomprehensible,
music-as-sound can...

But if what we're concerned about here is stylistic development versus the
possibility of more radical innovation, the questions I have are: what
constitutes innovation in music these days, and what is "being said" when
one adopts/adapts a well-established style as one's own.

Hmm. Even with the quotation marks it seems it's hard to avoid questions of
signification after all, I guess because under most circumstances we expect
music to communicate something, and most people respond to music they like
emotionally, investing it with personal meaning.

My own opinion about young players using "languages" or styles of previous
generations to make their own statements is that a) you have to do it
anyway to some extent just to get heard, and also as preparation for
creating something that's your own, but b) it's hard to do anything with
the impact it had when that style was on the cutting edge...and I think
there are several reasons for that.

I do think it's important for the health of the music that free jazz as
it's evolved over the last 40 years or so is still inspiring both to young
performers and new listeners. But let me ask the question to those of you
who weren't around in the 60s: does anything that's being done today that's
akin to the free jazz of those days compare to Trane, Ayler, Dolphy or
Ornette? And if not, why not? Is it that you can somehow feel those guys
breaking new ground, even through all the music that's been made since and
that you may have heard first? That their music has an authenticity that
younger players who model it can never claim, an authenticity that grew out
of those artists' response to their society, their times? And maybe (a
related point) that they were inwardly stronger and more determined
creators of the new and pillagers of the old?

Who was it said we're now living in the post-postmodern age? Just about
everthing imaginable has been fused or at least cut-and-pasted with
everything else...is there *anything* left to do that hasn't already been
done and probably done better? I'm sure there is, but it's from this
starting point that creative musicians today have to find their path, work
on their means of expression, say what they have to say in the "languages"
and "dialects" available, and say it with heart. And what then?

(These thoughts come to mind as I listen to Chris Speed's new Yeah No
record, which should be out in April.)

>
>But once a language is developed, it does not totally negate the
>possibililty of
>an artist making a completely new statement worth hearing.  If Ware or Gayle
>speaks the language of Coltrane, it doesn't mean he's not *saying*
>something new.
>If Berne speaks the language of Hemphill it doesn't mean he can't create
>something
>you needn't "read" or that Hemphill didn't "say."  If Fugazi sounds like
>Wire it
>doesn't mean there's nothing worth "reading" in their work.

The proof is in the particular instances and finally is pretty subjective
to each listener and player. But I do ask myself what it means to say
something in jazz when I hear the groundbreakers of 40 years ago still
strongly reflected in the music of many of today's best and brightest.
What's the difference between paying tribute (a positive thing), quoting,
and imitating (a negative thing)? between adopting and adapting? These can
be fine lines. If someone plays a Coltrane-like phrase, uses some of
Trane's or Ornette's melodic-harmonic-rhythmic strategies as models, what
if anything are they "saying" at that moment? And does that depend on
whether it pops up in the course of an improvisation rather than being part
of a composition or of some pre-determined design of a solo? What if a
musician's "way of speaking" is pretty much a composite of various classic
models or stylistic elements, as is typically the case with both good and
not so good jazz players? Apart from novel or felicitous solutions to the
challenge of creating right there on the spot something interestingly
organized and compelling, what is really being "said" in this reworking of
one's stock of ideas, this spontaneous construction (whether according to
some blueprint or not)? Words at least have denotations, but music can be
experienced so many different ways depending on the knowledge and awareness
of the listener. And are the feelings and intentions of the performer also
part of their statement? In more traditional (especially Afro-American?)
jazz contexts a player may be testifying and his audience may understand
his specific intentions very accurately. But most avant-jazz these days
seems to occupy another, less defined space, and although many listeners
and players may agree when the music felt good, and that a "dialogue" was
taking place, other metaphors sometimes seem more telling. (I was at an AMM
concert once that seemed more like a visitation than a conversation. At the
more quietly intense end of avant-jazz perceptions can become heightened
almost to the point of hallucination, a haunting or inner possession...)

Another similarity/difference: the vocabulary and syntax of verbal
languages can be used for many purposes, and patterns someone else has left
us can be built on and developed into new thoughts, into richer and more
complex (sometimes more elusive or ambiguous) expressions of experience and
meaning. But even though jazz, like much poetry or fiction for example,
thrives on references and a kind of intertextuality or dialogue with the
past, it seems that process is often more limited somehow in music than in
linguistic texts, exhausted sooner. I think that's the problem I have with
a lot of free jazz and improv too: even though they're supposed to be open
they've long since been circumsribed by their own methods, and saying
something fresh or surprising may require not only close listening and a
good internal editor but also an ability to play around with the unstated
rules and expectations of the situation. (It seems that all forms of jazz,
a complex social artform with a rather long apprenticeship, have their
staunchly defended traditions....)

Since even free jazz and post-modernism, the "revolutions" of the 60s and
80s, are now reduced to classic stylistic options, where should today's
jazz musicians look to break new ground, come up with music that strikes us
with the force of a personal vision? Spontaneous paraphrase of traditions
with engagement and a sense of adventure is always cool. But I appreciate
it more when artists take time out to focus on the musical ideas that
matter most to them, and continue to work with their best ideas to develop
their own musical structures, contexts, and the expressive terrain in which
they and their bandmates can speak. Obviously traditionalism/originality
and improvisation/composition are complementaries in jazz, but if music is
after all a kind of language, at its best a language spoken soul to soul,
where it falls on these coordinates may not be among the most important
issues. What matters most is that it take me deeper and deeper into itself
and my response to it till its unfolding radiates an irreducible,
untranslatable beauty and intensity...

(I didn't mean this to become a mini-essay but as usual it has. Sorry for
the length!)

>(Of course, popular tastes change with the times.  If a young composer wrote a
>genuinely beautiful new piece in the language of Mozart today, he/she'd
>surely be
>widely ridiculed, even if the piece was as fine as Mozart's six final
>symphonies... this gets into the music critic's demand for "the shock for the
>new.")

I think it's something else as well: a suspicion that no matter how genuine
your admiration for Mozart's style or how thorough your understanding of
the way his late symphonies work as narratives of internal conflict and
resolution, you can't really create something significant or authentic, no
matter how beautiful it is, by trying to work within a historical-cultural
context that's so far from your own, and whose forms are so identified with
their period. That somehow everything that could be said using its styles
was indeed said back then, so that your work is inevitably something of a
pastiche. This is also a typical judgment about attempts to complete
Mozart's Requiem (or other works by classical masters left unfinished or in
sketch form). But here the argument is that it's an impossible task to
second-guess what Mozart would have done, even taking into consideration
everything else we have of his, because what he would have done would have
been in some way different than what he'd done up till then, so therefore
the more the reconstruction seems typically Mozartian and accurately
represents the subtleties of his methods the more it may in fact be a
scholarly, well-meaning betrayal; on the other hand the less it seems
typically Mozartian, very simply the clumsier a fabrication it is; you
can't win either way!  All this does I guess have something to do with
western concepts of individual genius and historical evolution in the arts,
but even in much more traditional cultures I think it would be unusual to
create a piece of music strictly in the style of 200 years ago.

Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:48:43 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote:

> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

gee, i wonder if you could make your generalizations any broader?  you
sound like an old curmudgeon.  "why kids these days don't listen to
improv correctly..."  what a load of crap!  god forbid that anyone
younger than 45 start listening to improv.  i think this would fall under
zorn's "jazz snob eat..." category.

b

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: leon lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wadada Leo Smith's Tao N'jia on Tzadik
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:43:40 -0800 (PST)

"Tao N'Jia" on Tzadik is an absolutely beautiful disc.
Highly recommended.  Tones and silences, ethereal and poignant.  This is
my most listened to Leo Smith album and it's been passed on to others as a
favorite as well.

Just bought the New York Art Quartet reissue on Get Back.  I was expecting
liner notes and there isn't any.  Anyone interested in photocopying it for
me?  Please mail me... thanks.

Be well
Leon Lee

We sit together, the mountain and me,
until only the mountain remains.
        -- Li Po
"If I'm going to get shot, I want to see who is doing the shooting."
        -- 'Sista' Marie Lee 12/9/98 @ Taqueria Can-cun


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Gillett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what is Marty Ehrlich up to these days?
Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:20:40 -0600

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:17 -0800, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>    I just realized that Marty Ehrlich has been quite "discographically"
>silent these past few years. Anybody (from the city) knows what is he up to
>these days?

I'm not from the city, but when I was in the city (end of June) I saw on
the little placard posted outside the Internet Cafe that he had played
there with Tony Malaby a few days earlier.  I stopped in to hear a bit
of Barry Altschul with some people I didn't know, but the heat was stifling
and I was on my way to Tonic for Topaz anyway.

Re: Bible Launcher--
Perhaps the Radical House version just has additional tracks?  The Tzadik
issue has 30.  The extra ~12 minutes could be "bonus" material for the
reissue.
It's funny that the Bible Launcher page at radhs.com tells us to look for
Bible Launcher II on Tzadik, October '97, and the New Releases page tells
us to watch for Bible Launcher II on Tzadik, August '98.


-- Charles



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Earlier improv roots--"Gerry Miles"
Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:06:18 -0500



Prolonging the discussion of novel improvisation:

Well, I am by no means an expert on the earliest roots of
improvisation but I have heard enough improv spanning the
60's through the 90's to hear that there is a repertoire
of idioms which are frequently employed.  My question is
this:  Two years ago, Alan Licht released an improv
recording on Atavistic, entitled "Gerry Miles" which
featured  Lucy Hamilton (aka Connie Burg of Mars)-bass clarinet,
Melissa Weaver-piano, organ, Alan Licht-organ, and Keiji Haino-
vocals and percussion.  When I first heard this I thought
it was something really special and my opinion hasn't changed
over the past two years.  I hadn't heard anything like it, and
to my ear it avoided the standard improv idioms, with
the sound of the recording was akin to something like a blending
of improv and the soundtrack to a horror film.  But, in light
of the discussion that "most present improv is a rehashing of
old improv ideas", I would like to know from some of you
folks more knowledgable regarding the early body of improv
work (who have perhaps heard the disc in question), if there
is a progenitor to this music.  If there is, I would be
interested in checking it out.  Thanks.

>> > [Patrice wrote] Kids
>> > who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
>> > told them that there was music besides rock?

My feeling is that the avenue by which one discovers something
(including music) is not so important as the discovery itself.

David K.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: One more thing about free jazz
Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:55:12 -0500

William York wrote:

>  My point was that I don't see
> how on earth they could be breaking even on anything but the Zorn CDs and
> a few others, and their output is so high (4-5 a month) it just amazes me
> how they keep it up - maybe grants or something.  Anyway, enough from me..

    Actually, the smaller companies are(or should be) in better shape than
ever.
In the early(mid 80's) days of CD, the cost of manufacturing the discs
ran about $7 each. Recently I arranged for the pressing of 500 demo
discs for a friend, and he paid less than $2. Since the retail price
hasn't really changed at all in the last 10 years, that leaves a much
more comfortable margin to build upon.

RW



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz
Date: 18 Dec 1998 00:58:40 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

> If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
> with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with Carter
> for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99)

Great review of a live show by said forces appears in the fine and still improving
Vermont based zine Signal to Noise, the December (I think) issue with Miles Davis
on the cover (for a nice feature on the Bitches Brew box).  A nifty little zine,
formerly known as Soundboard, that has one foot in the free improv / energy /
ecstatic scene and the other in the Phish-head / jam band scene... quite the
balancing act.  One sign that the magazine is growing in stature is that the
publicists for Columbia Legacy (not me!) hooked the mag up with interviews with
Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea and Dave Holland for the Bitches Brew piece... in general
fanzines never get such access.  You can find Signal to Noise in Tower and around
here it's also free in some clubs like the Knit.  E-mail me privately if you're
interested in their address and other particulars.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Music/Arts Education
Date: 18 Dec 1998 01:48:29 -0500 (EST)


> >>
> it really is too bad that music/arts education is overlooked in the U.S.
>
> i remember when i was in 8th grade we had this music class where we did things like
> listen
> to popular music ( an example at the time was Steve Wonder's "Living For The City")
> and discuss
> what the lyrics were getting at.
>
> we also would listen to orchestral music and attempt to identifiy the
> instuments...and discuss their
> respective functions.
>
> i thought it was pretty damn cool.
>
> does _anything_ like this go on in schools anymore?
> >
I'm writing from Ontario, Canada and I was in a similar situation in
highschool where the music education created a higher caliber of musical
discussion than in my university level music classes.  This was though the
result of one individual who went outside the curriculum.  The situation
in Ontario seems to get worse exponentially with each day as more and more
arts program are cut, which is as far as I'm concerned a violent act on
behalf of the government as many people's basis for the beginnings of
cultural criticism stems from the arts in some way.  Anyways this stems
pretty far from improv but I'll swing it back by saying I truely believe
many musical forms empower a person directly or indirectly avant improv
being high on that list.  Jacques Attali has a great concept of music's
"essential violence"  which, while inexorably linked with improvision in
ways in his mind, is basically it's subversiveness that dominant culture
attempts to cleanse from music. It would be interesting to find out how
many other people on the list discovered potentially subversive music
through educational institutions....


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 01:59:17 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > (Jon didn't mention that the unheralded New Orleans free jazz pioneer
> > saxophonist Kidd Jordan was also part of that set... perhaps understandable as
>
> > he was woefully under-amplified.)
>
> Just to clarify here, I didn't mention Jordan because I wasn't talking about
> the quartet performance at this year's festival. I was talking about the trio
> performance at the first festival, two or three years ago, which was an
> infinitely more powerful set.

My apologies to Jon and all Zornlisters for this error.  It now appears to me that
I just haven't had the luck to encounter very many of Gayle's stronger
performances.  Anyway, I have to admit that I've felt pretty guilty since sending
that message dismissing Gayle so strongly a few nights ago, even if I was being
completely honest.  But music is such a subjective experience that I'd hate to
think someone didn't check out Gayle simply because I posted a negative review.
Geez, that's why I decided not to become a professional music critic!  Who the
fuck am I to criticize Gayle's life's work?

In light of which, I want to share an anecdote just to see what kind of discussion
this raises.  Beyond it being my job to communicate with professional music
critics, it is often my pleasure to do so because I am a longtime fan of music
journalism.  In high school I actually used to clip reviews of my favorite bands
and paste them into scrapbooks, and before long I found myself noticing how many
reviews I enjoyed were by the same few writers.  Growing up in the late '70s and
early '80s, Rafi Zabor (now a novelist), Kurt Loder (now an MTV talking head) and
Charles M. Young (now at Playboy and what else?) were among those I clipped the
most.

A number of my favorite contemporary critics, with whose opinions I normally
resonate greatly, have written very favorably about the pianist Marcus Roberts in
recent years, labelling his 1997 release "Blues for the New Millenium" as being
among their favorite releases of the year.  I listened to the album and found it
largely unimpressive.  But I went to hear Roberts at his latest Village Vanguard
engagement anyway.  And I found it unbearably stiff, not to mention about as
"soulfully authentic and swinging" (all "musts" for a Wynton Marsalis band
alumnus) as Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

I asked the same critics in question what they'd thought of the same music I'd
heard, and again they raved that it was marvellous.

My question is this (and it's not a publicist's marketing research but a genuine
question from a fellow traveller - remember, I'm posting this later than 6 p.m.,
always a good sign that I'm not "working"):  Most of us seem to use the Penguin
Guide and other such tools to guide our purchases to some extent.  And we read
Cadence, Down Beat, Magnet, Puncture, Forced Exposure or whatever else to find out
what's new.  But how much importance do the critics have in what we actually
decide to motivate ourselves to go to a store (or surf to a website) and lay down
cold hard cash?

I'll start:  I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately, I'll
go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.  (Hell, if Jon Abbey
alone got a commission on all the things he's coaxed me into buying...)

Make no mistake, I do think music criticism, as with all of arts criticism, has
its place.  It's a valuable ongoing record of the development of the arts scene
and to personal (and to some extent societal reactions to same), and it's also
frequently just interesting reading material - most of the time I have no plan
whatsoever to hear most of what Cadence reviews, instead living it vicariously
through the critic's prose.

Thoughts?  (Don't be shy, Jason...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new question bible launcher
Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:55:43 -0800

>  So why did Tzadik delete it, if it was already heavily censored ?
>
>  YVes
>
>  P.S. How many tracks are there on the original ?

 37 tracks

mike
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 03:37:16 EST


In a message dated 12/18/98 2:01:43 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately,
I'll
go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.>>

I try to use what critics have to say about a record or an artist just as I
use the opinions of people on this list or the opinions of people in record
stores; I listen to what they have to say and try to figure out how it
overlaps with my taste. some record store employees and some acquaintances I
can almost use as contrary indicators; if they are raving about it, it's a
pretty safe bet I don't care. a lot of the purchasing I do is also based on
what label the music is on; if it's a quality label like FMP, Corpus
Hermeticum, Incus, Matchless, or Mille Plateaux, to name a few, I'm more
likely to buy it than not. I find the Forced Exposure web site (www.fe.org)
invaluable for info about new releases.

I also try to find experts on specific styles of music to help me figure out
what the key records are in a genre. in dub, for instance, Steve Barrow, who
curates the Blood And Fire reissue label, has superb taste. so I buy most
records on that label, hoping to find gems. I have friends who know a lot
about Brazilian and Latin music and have helped me make my way through a bit
of the extensive Dusty Groove catalog (www.dustygroove.com).

there are some critics who can talk me into buying records. I was on the fence
about the Bitches Brew set, until I read Sasha Frere-Jones' review of it in
Time Out NY, which got me to go buy it. in the same manner, I was on the fence
about the recent Varese set, until I read Steve Smith's superb review of it
here (anyone remember the old Spy Magazine feature "Logrolling In Our Time"?).

but these two are examples of music I was already considering buying. the fact
that Jim O'Rourke, whose taste I greatly respect, repeatedly raves about the
Spice Girls in his interview in the new issue of Resonance, isn't going to
make me pick up Spice World. sorry, Jim.

one last big factor for me in identifying artists that I like, and records
that I should buy, is live shows. between being in NYC, and attending the
Victoriaville festival the past three years, I've gotten to see a fairly large
percentage of artists that I'm interested in over the years. having seen Evan
Parker play in four different contexts helps me to appreciate his recorded
work, just as less enjoyable concerts have allowed me to steer clear of many
records that I've ended up hearing and being glad I didn't buy.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Signal To Noise
Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:36:09 -0500

Steve Smith wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
> > with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with Carter
> > for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99)
>
> Great review of a live show by said forces appears in the fine and still improving
> Vermont based zine Signal to Noise, the December (I think) issue with Miles Davis
> on the cover (for a nice feature on the Bitches Brew box).  A nifty little zine,
> formerly known as Soundboard, that has one foot in the free improv / energy /
> ecstatic scene and the other in the Phish-head / jam band scene... quite the
> balancing act.  One sign that the magazine is growing in stature is that the
> publicists for Columbia Legacy (not me!) hooked the mag up with interviews with
> Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea and Dave Holland for the Bitches Brew piece... in general
> fanzines never get such access.  You can find Signal to Noise in Tower and around
> here it's also free in some clubs like the Knit.  E-mail me privately if you're
> interested in their address and other particulars.

I occassionally write CD reviews for this magazine. I wrote a short one on
Gustafsson/Guy in the Miles issue and on the  Houtkamp/Van Hove/Prins and solo
Gert-Jan Prins CD's in the new one (coming out soon?). I hope that doesn't deter you
all from reading it...

Anyway, you can contact their publisher, Pete Gershon, at <[e-mail]> if you're
interested in a subscription. There's also a newly formed Signal To Noise discussion
group at onelist.com so check it out!

                                -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Howard <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Gayle/Ware etc
Date: 18 Dec 1998 07:06:55 -0600



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Lopez [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
> Has anyone out there had any progressions of this kind that
> they can actually
> recall enough to talk about the differences?
>
> I think this stems from the fact that I regularly give my
> 22-year-old son
> tapes and CDs that I'm listening to, and I wish I could crawl
> into *his* head
> and know what it's doing to him. The boy says he loves it...
>
My experience was that I liked jazz from childhood, mostly Miles Davis and
Dave Brubeck, and gradually got into it more and more as I got more bored
with rock.  When I first heard the more out there jazz of the 60's (in the
late 80's, when it was REALLY hard to find) I had a few years of listening
to punk, post-punk, hip-hop and hardcore under belt, so it made sense.  It
was just a question of finding it.  No fuss, no muss as they say...  Cecil
Taylor in particular (its funny you should mention him) struck me right
away.  I couldn't get enough of his music, still can't! Since then, I don't
even think of it as separate from "jazz", as seems to happen a lot. I like
Frank Lowe like I like Art Pepper.  I like Woody Shaw like I like Derek
Bailey. All part of the same continuum.  john

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Howard <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE:Gayle, Ware, etc
Date: 18 Dec 1998 07:20:46 -0600


On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote:

> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking
the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

>gee, i wonder if you could make your generalizations >any broader?  you
>sound like an old curmudgeon.  "why kids these days >don't listen to
>improv correctly..."  what a load of crap!  god forbid >that anyone
>younger than 45 start listening to improv.  i think >this would fall under
>zorn's "jazz snob eat..." category.

I can see why you took that in that way, but that was not how it was
intended.  "Indie kids" is a sort of misnomer, these are people that are my
age, I am 32, and grew up listening to college rock and hardcore/post-punk.
Hey! just like me!  If I am generalizing it is about a very specific
audience.  There is not a broad range at these shows.
In another more defensive point, I reserve the right to be mildly critical
on occasion, I have not said these people should give the fuck up.  I just
found the disconnect interesting, related more to the commodification of the
idea of improv. It signifies something positive for these people.
Eventually, a number of them will love it, continue to listen (not to me,
cause they will soon realize how poor my attempts are)and it will become
part of them.   john

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 09:23:43 -0500

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:59:17 -0500, Steve Smith <[e-mail]> sed:

> My question is this (and it's not a publicist's marketing research but a genuine
> question from a fellow traveller - remember, I'm posting this later than 6 p.m.,
> always a good sign that I'm not "working"): how much importance do the critics have in
> what we actually
> decide to motivate ourselves to go to a store (or surf to a website) and lay down
> cold hard cash?

Aw, c'mon Steve, you're not gonna use ANY of this info for your job? ;-)

I sit on both sides of the fence so I'd say that it depends on the writer and the
consumer.  I know people who buy up CD's if only because certain writers say that they
love it.  With so many indie labels, it's really impossible to get a bead on EVERYTHING in
every style of music (much less one style).  Any writer worth her or his salt will read
what other scribes and zines have to say and learn something in the process.  Someone told
me 'if something's covered in the Wire, Mojo, Rootsworld and they all have something good
to say about it, I should probably at least check it out.'  That makes sense to me- you
gotta pick and choose.  I'd love to have enough time and money to go after EVERY release
that seems even remotely worthwhile but...

On the other hand, there's a lot of crap out there.  Go out and start asking artists and
record companies to send you CD's to review and I promise you that most of what you will
get will drive you crazy.  Well meaning and hard working as they all may be, it's very
scary.

One more thing: most people I know don't read ANY magazines at all to decide what to get-
they'll see a video or hear something on the radio to make their choice.  The ones reading
zines are hard-core music freaks, other writers and  musicians (to some extent at least).

Best,
J
--
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 08:50:30 -0600 (CST)

Steve Smith asks/wonders:

>
> In light of which, I want to share an anecdote just to see what kind of discussion
> this raises.  Beyond it being my job to communicate with professional music
> critics, it is often my pleasure to do so because I am a longtime fan of music
> journalism.  In high school I actually used to clip reviews of my favorite bands
> and paste them into scrapbooks, and before long I found myself noticing how many
> reviews I enjoyed were by the same few writers.  Growing up in the late '70s and
> early '80s, Rafi Zabor (now a novelist), Kurt Loder (now an MTV talking head) and
> Charles M. Young (now at Playboy and what else?) were among those I clipped the
> most.

This is kind of scary!

>
> A number of my favorite contemporary critics, with whose opinions I normally
> resonate greatly, have written very favorably about the pianist Marcus Roberts in
> recent years, labelling his 1997 release "Blues for the New Millenium" as being
> among their favorite releases of the year.  I listened to the album and found it
> largely unimpressive.  But I went to hear Roberts at his latest Village Vanguard
> engagement anyway.  And I found it unbearably stiff, not to mention about as
> "soulfully authentic and swinging" (all "musts" for a Wynton Marsalis band
> alumnus) as Emerson, Lake and Palmer.
>
> I asked the same critics in question what they'd thought of the same music I'd
> heard, and again they raved that it was marvellous.

I'm not sure if I think of myself as a critic or not, but ...  One thing
you have to remember is that critics listen to music differently.  When
I'm listening to something - as a reviewer - I'm listening mainly for
two things - does this music achieve what the musicians are after?
and is there something here that sets it apart from the crowd?  (I
think, to a large extent, that's what is so exciting - for me, at
least - about a lot of the contemporary "free improv" crowd.  Yes,
they're playing a style that hit its heyday 20-30 years ago, but
after the Wynton influenced 80's, this is a real breath of fresh
air.)  It's important to pay attention to why a critic loves
something, so even critics with whom you agree can love something
for the wrong (for you) reasons.

>
> My question is this (and it's not a publicist's marketing research but a genuine
> question from a fellow traveller - remember, I'm posting this later than 6 p.m.,
> always a good sign that I'm not "working"):  Most of us seem to use the Penguin
> Guide and other such tools to guide our purchases to some extent.  And we read
> Cadence, Down Beat, Magnet, Puncture, Forced Exposure or whatever else to find out
> what's new.  But how much importance do the critics have in what we actually
> decide to motivate ourselves to go to a store (or surf to a website) and lay down
> cold hard cash?
>
> I'll start:  I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
> recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately, I'll
> go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.

This is my experience as well.  Well, except for the first part.  I do
read cadence with a pen in hand, marking those cds I want to go buy,
but my buying seldom follows my reading.  More often I'll buy something
because a friend mentioned it, or I heard about it from someone one
a list (either this list, or the jazz list (Jazz-L), or, when I was
on it, the bluegrass list (bgrass-l - for a couple of years almost
all of my bluegrass purchases were based on recommendations from
people on that list).

Of course, it depends who recommends the disc.  If the person is just
a record company shill, then forget it.  ;)  I look for people who
have taste that's similar to mine.  Interestingly enough, now that
I know, for example, that Steve is a fan of Don DeLillo's, I'm much
more likely to run out and buy a cd because he recommended it.  Of
course, the fact that he has good taste in music helps.  But those
extra parallels of taste help a lot too.

Jason's recommended a couple of things for me offlist and I'm much
more likely to buy them than I would have been had I just read how
great they were in his reviews.  I think the personal recommendation
really makes a difference.

Of course, when I review something and I like it, I want to convince
people to go buy it.  But I don't see that happening too often.

Fortunately, that's not - for me - the reason for writing reviews.
It has to do with things that are related more to what Steve says
here:

>
> Make no mistake, I do think music criticism, as with all of arts criticism, has
> its place.  It's a valuable ongoing record of the development of the arts scene
> and to personal (and to some extent societal reactions to same), and it's also
> frequently just interesting reading material - most of the time I have no plan
> whatsoever to hear most of what Cadence reviews, instead living it vicariously
> through the critic's prose.

There's also the desire to help the music in some way, by giving the musicians
an honest appraisal of their work, and what they could do better.  (And
by offering encouragement when the financial encouragement might not be
that great.)


>
> Thoughts?  (Don't be shy, Jason...)

Hey!  What am I, chopped liver?  :)

- eric



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Free Jazz
Date: 18 Dec 1998 11:02:37 EST

<< [e-mail] wrote:

 > If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
 > with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with
Carter
 > for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99)

 Great review of a live show by said forces appears in the fine and still
improving
 Vermont based zine Signal to Noise, the December (I think) issue with Miles
Davis
 on the cover (for a nice feature on the Bitches Brew box).  A nifty little
zine,
 formerly known as Soundboard...

 Steve Smith
 [e-mail]
  >>

Thanks for mentioning this, Steve!  Signal to Noise (formerly Soundboard
Magazine) is doing a GREAT job of covering the full spectrum of improv, as you
said Steve: "one foot in the free improv / energy / ecstatic scene and the
other in the Phish-head / jam band scene".  Very interesting approach...they
had sent me a copy of the magazine with the Trio and Daniel C review, some
excerpts of which I've pasted in below.  (I've run a few Sublingual Records
ads in the mag, as well, and they've done a great job with them ....
reasonable rates, too.)

     "Those of us who attended the Green Street Grill show in Cambridge on
Sunday night, September 13 were treated to a very special collaboration
between the Saturnalia String Trio with very special guest Daniel Carter (the
amazing New York City free improv multi-instrumentalist from Other Dimensions
in Music, Test, etc, who played the tenor sax, flute and trumpet). The Joe
Maneri Trio was also on the bill...
Working without a drummer, and essentially forming a marriage of those
instruments associated primarily with European classical music with the
instruments commonly associated with the great African American music that
Carter has been involved with in New York for over two decades, the group
turned in a sublime set of music whose melodic beauty and clarity  was as
unique as it was uncommon in much of the improvised music of the day.  There
seemed to be rays of pure love emanating through the vibrations that the group
created, weaving a harmonic tapestry of gentle, graceful fibers, punctuated
with well timed climactic cascades....At one point, I found myself imagining
what it would have sounded like if Webern would have written a string piece to
be performed along with the great John Coltrane on saxophone.  The blues would
emanate from the endless well of CarterÆs uplifted horn, to be answered in a
call-and-response manner by the luxuriant and spontaneous layering of the
strings."

Franklin Jones, Signal to Noise, Sptember 1998

For those interested, in addition to the collaborative CD between SS Trio and
Daniel C that Sublingual will be releasing in early 99, we will also be
releasing a collaborative CD between SS Trio and Roger Miller's (x-Mission of
Burma) new prepared piano/drums duo "The Binary System".

You know, the subject keeps popping up in these discussions about the "idioms"
and "common motiffs" of improvised music, and I can't help but to consider
that the bulk of this music (in America, at least) has been played by horn
players (of course there ARE many exceptions, especially as mentioned with the
Thurston Moore, Gastr Del Sol, Jim O'Rourke front more recently, as well as
the inclusion of strings during many sessions in the golden 60's era of improv
- like Ron Carter's cello work with Dolphy, etc.), and that I'm guessing that
people are referring to the standard horns/piano/bass/drums combos when they
woe the tired state of "the genre" (not that I really agree entirely that it's
tired...)....But lets face it, I think it must be tough for horn players to
sound completely original in improv, given the weight and genius of those who
have come before them. Since working with the Saturnalia String Trio and the
Boston String Ensemble (John Voigt - bass, Ricardo Frota - violin, Jonathan
LaMaster - 5 string violin), I've become more aware of a movement of many
other groups towards working with strings.  The Dave Douglas 5 CD from a few
years back was certainly inspirational, I thought...

What do others think...is it nearly impossible for horn players to sound
"fresh"?  I think it must be challenging, to say the least...that's where I
think Carter and Sabir Mateen score points in my book (for their originality
without totally discounting the influences and lineage of the past....how
could they? They're the direct descendants.)

BTW, I heard a great Steve Lacy live cut from 1979 on the radio the other day
with great string work on it...didn't recognize the names of any of the other
players, though...anyone have any recomendations on work he's done with
strings?  Also, I thought the Peter Kowald set at the Visions Fest last May
was completely transcendent... the Europeans seem to have much more of a
tradition in these contexts.

Jonathan LaMaster
Sublingual Records
http://www.sublingual.com




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Recent Goodies
Date: 18 Dec 1998 11:12:51 -0500


     Kazutoki Umezu             Ahiru                   Nani

     I'm almost hesitant to mention this one, as it's probably next to
     impossible to get in the US, but this is one wonderful record. 'Ahiru'
     is Vol 1 of Umezu's 20-piece all-Japanese klezmer ensemble and, though
     I admit to being a sucker for most things klezmer, this one's pretty
     special. Combining the tightness and raucous nutso quality of classic
     Breuker, Umezu covers such venerable songs as 'Tum Balalayke', 'Bay
     Mir Bistu Sheyn' and a delirious run-through of Mickey Katz' version
     of the cowboy classic, 'I Want to Go Where the Wild Goose Goes'.

     James Tenney               Bridge + Flocking       hat [now]

     On a more sober note, these are two pieces, for piano quartet and
     piano duo, that feature Tenney's unusual tuning system,
     Partch-inspired, though not the same as Partch's. On first listen, I
     had the impression more of a demo for the tunings than of any
     particular musical statement. On re-listen, the generally quiet and
     single note lines showed subtle ebb and flow patterns, a hard to
     describe kind of internal logic seemed to be asserting itself. A tough
     nut, for me, to crack but it's proving rewarding. This was my first
     exposure to Tenney's music and other's comments would be welcome.

     Christian Wolff            I Like to Think of Harriet Tubman      Mode

     Also my first experience of Wolff's work. This is a collection of
     pieces written from 1950 to 1986 and they vary a good bit. The earlier
     ones in a spare, often beautiful Cage/Feldman mode, the later pieces
     coming under some degree of influence (though I'm not actually sure
     which way the influence went) of Cardew and Rzewski. His use of
     popular or worker's songs is not as overt as in the work of these two,
     but makes for an intriguing half-way point between song form and
     abstraction. Worth hearing and, again, I'd be curious to hear opinions
     of other Wolff works.

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
Date: 18 Dec 1998 12:33:07 -0600 (CST)

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Steve Smith wrote:

> I'll start:  I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
> recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately, I'll
> go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.  (Hell, if Jon Abbey
> alone got a commission on all the things he's coaxed me into buying...)

The same here: a huge chunk of my purchasing is due to posts on zornlist,
phiba-improv, ecto, or Silence. I'll pay attention if, say, Kyle Gann
raves about something (though I haven't seen him in the Voice recently --
is he still there?). I'll pay attention to reviews in The Wire, Avant,
Cadence, ND, and the like, but I'm not as often prompted to buy stuff.

---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "keik-o wenischi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: christian marclay/ikue mori/zeena parkins @the knit
Date: 18 Dec 1998 11:34:38 PST

hello! i received the following message thru c. marclay... so i'm
passing it on:

PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE

Christian Marclay & Ikue Mori & Zeena Parkins

The rare meeting of three brillant personalities from New York's
improvising community. Turntablist extraordinaire Christian Marclay
teams up with the wild electric harpist Zeena Parkins and Ikue Mori the
legendary drum machinist.  The perfect antidote to the Holiday Season
blues.

Saturday December 19
9 & 10 pm
$ 10
The Knitting Factory
74 Leonard Street
212-219 3006
www.knittingfactory.com
********
end.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: not list related again
Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:36:09 +0100 (MET)

thanks to all the people giving me hints on ralph steadman books. this
list is really one of the best sources for all kinds of info...

ok....
anyone who has any idea what i am talkin about please answer privately:

i am looking for a song by someone called WARREN MARLEY that says
something about Los Angeles in the lyrics. it must be from around 1970...


BJOERN
www.cityinfonetz.de/uni/homepage/bjoern.eichstaedt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Criticism/Reviews
Date: 18 Dec 1998 16:35:35 -0500 (EST)

Well, since I've been solicited I'll pipe in a bit. I must say though that
Eric "Chopped Liver" Saidel (sorry Eric, I couldn't resist) has been
customarily eloquent and I share a lot of his motivations about criticism
and reviewing.

I'll see that Tony Reif's ruminations yesterday were much closer to what I
think of as "music criticism" (and fine criticism, at that) as opposed to
what Eric and I do for Cadence, which involves all-too-rapid (and
sometimes not-rapid-enough) appraisals of promo discs for readers. I do
think there's a dignity and a purpose to this, but it's probably different
from what most of us think of as criticism.

As a reviewer, I feel like I face to conceptual stumbling-blocks. The
first is that I play this music, and that sometimes makes it difficult for
me to encounter certain review pieces. On the one hand, I might open up
the ol' UPS box to discover a slew of still more 60s Blue Note hard bop
copies, my general response to which "Fuck, not again." But on the other
hand, as Eric so rightly put it, it's important to employ a tad of
phenomenological method here and try to assess what the musicians' goals
were and what they're trying to convey to the audience.

The second stumbling-block concerns how much I see myself as making
recommendations for purchase. Here I'm in total agreement with Saidel,
Smith, and others. I do respect and follow the writings of some critics (I
dig Eric's writing, and Walter Horn's too; and I really like Downbeat
rogue John Corbett, both as writer and person). That having been said,
it's much more important to me to get a recommendation from someone
personally than through print. That's not to say I don't crib from print
reviews, but these things are expensive so I'd rather be sure; and the
personal interaction is more pleasing anyway. I'd say I write my reviews
to give an accurate representation of what's going on, where the artist in
question is found in the music in general, and to be entertaining if
possible, understanding that most folks read for the info and not as part
of a shopping list.

So, without further ado, can anybody clue me in on where to start with
Gianni Gebbia and Georgio Gaslini??

This has been a really stimulating and collegial week for the Zorn list,
by the way.

JB


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stuff and nonsense, etc.
Date: 18 Dec 1998 13:04:36 -0500


I'm starting to realize just how frustrating it must be to be signed up to
this list in digest form; I've been watching this
improv/education/criticism discussion develop for a couple of days now, and
exams have kept me from writing the damnedest thing in response to any of
it. Now that I'm finished, I'm not quite sure where to start, so please
bear with me for a second while I stumble about and show off just how new I
am to all of this:

WYNTON MARSALIS AND EDUCATION: Just in case the e-mail address didn't give
it away, I'm Canadian, and like one other contributor so far, I'd consider
my grade- and high school music education to have been fantastic, though I
understand that this both was and still is the exception as far as most
schools go. In the sixth grade, our music teacher made us all bring in a
tape of some sort along with a "call chart", or list of twenty prepared
questions for the class to answer at predetermined points during the piece
that we were listening to... the questions could ask about the lyrics at a
particular spot in a song, or have somebody identify a particular solo
instrument, or whatever. Given that most of us had never been anywhere near
an instrument of any sort, it was a pretty terrific taking-off point for
high school.
  Much as I came to dislike the politicking that went on in and around the
music department in my high school, I'm not for a second going to try to
deny that the six years that I spent being subjected to the worst that Miss
Barber and Co. could throw at me has done a *lot* for my appreciation of
music in general. Between the start of the seventh grade and my eventual
graduation, I played three different clarinets, the trombone, and crash
cymbals; in the eighth grade, our class looked at the hows and whys of
program music, and did small-group presentations on specific pieces; in the
tenth grade, we were made to look at specific examples of late Classical
material and discuss how the arrangements fit together; in the eleventh,
things got really messy when we tried to do the same thing with Baroque
compositions. Hell, in the twelfth grade, they had us try our hands at
arranging something for a quartet of our choice, which probably isn't
something that any kid of mine (assuming that my girlfriend and I don't
just end up raising puppies) will ever experience outside of a private
school at the rate that things are going right now.
  ...which is where I think Wynton Marsalis and all of the
less-than-innovative stuff that he does should come into the discussion.
Sure, he was hailed all over the place (and still is if you live and die by
PBS) as the saviour of the arts and blah-blah-blah. From a Zorn-list
perspective, what he's doing doesn't seem to strike an awful lot of people
as being terribly important. But (and this is where I come off looking like
a total geek), check out what he had to say in an interview from the _Utne
Reader_ back in early '96... the fact that it was reprinted from a late '95
issue of _American Heritage_ might tell you what to expect:

"The principle of American democracy is that you have freedom. The question
is `How will you use it?' which is also the central question in jazz. In
democracy, as in jazz, you have freedom with restraint. It's not absolute
freedom, it's freedom within a structure.
  "The connection between jazz and the American experience is profound.
Believe me, that's the heart and soul of what jazz is. That's why jazz is
so important. And that's why the fact that it has not been addressed has
resulted in our losing a large portion of our identity as Americans.
Because the art form that really gives us a mythic representation of our
society has not been taught to the public."

And earlier, in response to the question, "You have been criticized for
being deaf to a lot of interesting music since the era of Coltrane and
Coleman":
  "I've listened to it. I've played with the musicians.... If I've rejected
it's not out of ignorance of it. I don't know any people who like it. It
doesn't resonate with anything I've experienced in the world.... I don't
even like Coltrane's later stuff, to be honest. I don't listen to it like a
do to _A Love Supreme_. It was with the type of things that late-period
Coltrane did that jazz destroyed its relationship with the public."

This probably won't really surprise anybody, at least not if they're at all
familiar with the sorts of people and organizations who boost his career
the most, but I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that it might not
be entirely fair, accurate, or whatever, to be gunning for Marsalis because
his approach to jazz differs from that of the free-improv types, and that's
because he's trying to accomplish something entirely different. Granted,
it's a bit too Boy Scout-ish for my tastes, but as an English student
myself, it's not as though I'm unfamiliar with the urge of particular
artists of any sort to create, refine, or entire redefine a national (or
group) identity in the face of current obstacles.
  And *this*, (un?)fortunately, is where I have to start relying on the
rest of the list. My own knowledge of jazz in any period is pathetic... I'm
just starting to listen to any of it, and have really only been profoundly
blown away by Charles Mingus so far; the Zorn thing hasn't really been a
jazz issue for me yet because I came at it from the industrial-isolationist
thing through Mick Harris and Bill Laswell and the Golden Palominos, and
I've heard very little of what most people would consider to be Zorn's
"jazz" material. What I am going to try to do, though, is make a couple of
tentative links between recent moments in this discussion and see if
anybody can run with them for a bit:

1) WASPish guilt and geography. Since a lot of the Marsalis interview that
I've just quoted refers to jazz as having been specifically refined by
Afro-Americans in a distinctively American fashion (there's a passage in
Tony Scherman's introduction to the interview that says something along the
lines of "Americans are cultural mulattoes"), I'm wondering if a lot of
what has been said about faux spirituality and indie kids and all of that
might be tied into the same lack of a (white?) American national identity,
or even if people think that the sudden lack of a specific national focus
might be a part of why jazz at large is largely considered to be
floundering these days.

2) Goals. What *are* the free-improv types trying to accomplish? If
Marsalis' vision of jazz and music education is all about maintaining a
musical tradition in order to shore up what he sees as a crumbling national
tradition, what are other jazz musicians who work under a different set of
rules trying to do thirty years after the foundations were laid for their
current work?

3.) Critics. I was originally going to write an entirely separate message
about how I get along with music critics, but since it's almost 1:00 and I
still haven't had a shower (and because I'm sure that you've all had enough
of me for one day), I'm going to spare you that one for now. Still, I can't
help but wonder if maybe the fact that we're all involved in some aspect of
music criticism simply through our buying and listening habits might not
blind us to certain other aspects of what musicans are trying to accomlish.
I personally don't listen to jazz because I want to know what it's like to
be American; I'm Canadian, fergawdsakes. Maybe this is too inclusive and
touchy-feely a perspective to be advancing here, but doesn't it seem
possible that a lot of the dismissals, or even negative reviews, that we've
seen lately might come out of something other than simply having heard the
cliches before? Actually, this probably ties back to my second
question-point-thing above, so maybe I'm just wasting your time now.
  I'm going to head off and have a shower now, but I wanted to thank
everybody on this list for giving me an awful lot to read and think about
during the past couple of days. You've been an exceptionally welcome
distraction from my exams, and the tone of discussion has been more
civilized than anything that I've seen on any other Internet forum in
years... it's almost inspiring.

-me





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Improv/Penguin
Date: 18 Dec 1998 17:56:33 -0500 (EST)

I think semi-institutionalized racism and hymning of monopoly capitalism
on one side of the ocean verses such things as government arts subsidies and
universal health care may answer your question.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tom Pratt wrote:


> Why is it that many of the European free improvisors that pioneered the idiom
> are still around and playing while the Americans from that period seemed to
> have disappeared?
>
>                                     -Tom Pratt
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wadada Leo Smith's Tao N'jia on Tzadik
Date: 18 Dec 1998 18:04:45 -0500 (EST)

Is this a reissue of the  NJAQ's ESP-DIsk or the later one on Fontana?

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]


On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, leon lee wrote:

> "Tao N'Jia" on Tzadik is an absolutely beautiful disc.
> Highly recommended.  Tones and silences, ethereal and poignant.  This is
> my most listened to Leo Smith album and it's been passed on to others as a
> favorite as well.
>
> Just bought the New York Art Quartet reissue on Get Back.  I was expecting
> liner notes and there isn't any.  Anyone interested in photocopying it for
> me?  Please mail me... thanks.
>
> Be well
> Leon Lee
>
> We sit together, the mountain and me,
> until only the mountain remains.
>         -- Li Po
> "If I'm going to get shot, I want to see who is doing the shooting."
>         -- 'Sista' Marie Lee 12/9/98 @ Taqueria Can-cun
>
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 18 Dec 1998 03:13:04 -0500

>      James Tenney               Bridge + Flocking       hat [now]
>
>      On a more sober note, these are two pieces, for piano quartet and
>      piano duo, that feature Tenney's unusual tuning system,
>      Partch-inspired, though not the same as Partch's. On first listen, I
>      had the impression more of a demo for the tunings than of any
>      particular musical statement. On re-listen, the generally quiet and
>      single note lines showed subtle ebb and flow patterns, a hard to
>      describe kind of internal logic seemed to be asserting itself. A tough
>      nut, for me, to crack but it's proving rewarding. This was my first
>      exposure to Tenney's music and other's comments would be welcome.

There is a disc of his electronic works I liked. The reason I mention it is
that one of the pieces was *very* Oswald/plunderhonic type piece using Elvis
Presleys's "Blue Suede Shoes" as source material. And I believe it long
predated Oswald so I thought it might be of interest... I can't remember the
label and the title was a span of years (I'm not very useful here! Can anyone
help?).

                        -Tom Pratt



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 19 Dec 1998 04:44:17 -0800

Tom Pratt wrote:

> > This was my first
> > exposure to Tenney's music and other's comments would be welcome.
>
> There is a disc of his electronic works I liked. The reason I mention it is
> that one of the pieces was *very* Oswald/plunderhonic type piece using Elvis
> Presleys's "Blue Suede Shoes" as source material. And I believe it long
> predated Oswald so I thought it might be of interest... I can't remember the
> label and the title was a span of years (I'm not very useful here! Can anyone
> help?).


Perhaps:

Tenney, James - Selected works, 1961-1969:
          Collage, no. 1.
      Noise study.
          Dialogue.
          Phases.
          Music for player piano.
          Ergodos, no. 2.
          Fabric for Che.
          For Ann (rising)

Sorry, don't know the label.

"It wasn't until 1961 that an unequivocal exposition of plunderphonic
techniques arrived in James Tenney's celebrated Collage No. 1 (Blue
Suede), a manipulation of Elvis Presley's hit song "Blue Suede Shoes".
The gauntlet was down; Tenney had picked up a "non-art", low-brow work
and turned it into "art"; not, as with scored music, by writing
variations on a popular air, but simply by subjecting a gramaphone
record to various physical and electrical procedures."
                    -from Chris Cutler, "plunderphonia" (1994) 60 Musicworks 6.

Oswald himself refers to Collage No. 1 in his paper "Audio Piracy as a
Compositional Prerogative" (1985) reproduced in 43 Musicworks (?), 57
Whole Earth Review (?), and Negativland, "Fair Use: The Story of the
Letter U and the Numeral 2" (Concord, CA: Seeland, 1995) 213 at 216.

Note that "Blue Suede Shoes" was, as I recall, composed and originally
recorded by Carl Perkins.

-cd

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Richard Youngs
Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:22:29 -0500

Is anyone here familiar with the music of Richard Youngs and
specifically the recording 'Sapphie'? I just heard of him for the first
time in the new releases at Forced Exposure and it looked very
interesting... Could someone describe him for me?

Here's what Forced Exposure had to say:

"Unique to the already unique Youngs' oeuvre, Sapphie is Youngs' first
album with just two instruments -- classical guitar and voice. With only
three tracks making up this full length, we still get Youngs' signature
trait of composing with breadth, but never have we heard so much breath.
Not just the words themselves, but the way they are sung conveys the
sustained, yearnful feeling familiar throughout Youngs' almost ten-year
career in the underground. A step back to his earlier minimal musings,
Sapphie also steps forward as his first 'vocal' album." The most
pristine and elegantly recorded Youngs album and a devastating listen.

listening to: Joelle Leandre & Tetsu Saitoh: Joelle et Tetsu (Omba) -
great bass duets!

                                -Tom Pratt


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Richard Youngs
Date: 19 Dec 1998 11:42:17 EST


In a message dated 12/19/98 10:37:50 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Is anyone here familiar with the music of Richard Youngs and
specifically the recording 'Sapphie'?>>

I have most of his records. no two are the same, although most of them aren't
that good. what Forced Exposure doesn't mention in this capsule review is his
tendency towards bombastic cheesiness, seemingly Prog-influenced.

exceptions: the recently released House Music (Meme) is a surprisingly good
record created from processed household sounds. Advent (Table Of The Elements)
is a reissue of his acclaimed first, lo-fi, minimalist record, although I
think it's kind of overrated. Festival (also Table Of The Elements) is maybe
the best thing I've heard by him. he works a lot with fellow Brit Simon
Wickham-Smith. some of their records are flat-out bad (I'm thinking mostly of
Red and Black Bear, which is a children's opera). Youngs also has done 5 CDs
so far in his Radios series, which you can find under the name Brian Lavelle.
these range from interesting to good. I haven't heard Sapphie, since I've cut
down on my Youngs CD buying, but the description scares me. search the FE
catalog for Youngs, and you'll find better records to start with, I think.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Recent Goodies
Date: 19 Dec 1998 11:44:37 EST


In a message dated 12/19/98 3:29:03 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<There is a disc of his electronic works I liked. The reason I mention it is
that one of the pieces was *very* Oswald/plunderhonic type piece using Elvis
Presleys's "Blue Suede Shoes" as source material. And I believe it long
predated Oswald so I thought it might be of interest... I can't remember the
label and the title was a span of years (I'm not very useful here! Can anyone
help?).>>

Selected Works 1961-1969 (Artifact). This Blue Suede Shoes track was featured
in some experimental movie from the sixties, by Tony Conrad or Jack Smith, I
think.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: more Tenney
Date: 19 Dec 1998 11:48:01 EST

oh, one more thing. there's an interesting looking new Tenney CD on Hatology,
featuring electronically processed acoustic instruments. anyone heard this?

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: James Tenney
Date: 19 Dec 1998 10:29:56 -0800

Brian Olewnik asked earlier about James Tenney's music (sorry for the
enhanced digest delay).  I think he's one of the important little known
composers of the century, everything I've heard by him has been at least
interesting and a lot of it has seemed really great to me.

Tenney was a central figure in the 1960s in the US avant garde, had an
ensemble with Malcolm Goldstein, Phillip Corner & others that performed
older American works (Cage, Ives, Ruggles, Varese & more) as well as
cotemporary pieces. He also made works for choreographers coming out of the
Judson Church scene & underground filmmakers like Stan Brakhage.

Tenney has taught for most of the last 30 years or so, first at Cal Arts,
more recently, for something like 20 years now, at York University in
Ontario.  He's been very influential on a wide range of younger
composer/performers in both the US & Canada: John Oswald's Plexure is
dedicated to him; Gordon Monahan was one of the pianists to perform inthe
premier of Bridge; Willy Winant worked with him at Cal Arts (Tenney is the
pianist Winant plays with on the recent Stockhausen disc from, what is it,
Forced Exposure?); Lois V Vierk, Carl Stone, David Mahler, Larry Polansky,
are among the US composers who've been strongly influenced by him in
various ways, etc.

Tenney's worked in a lot of different areas of music - computer music, just
intonation, site-specific works, North American gamelan, collage
techniques, etc. (He's a good counter-example for the recent thread about
innovation continuing past a certain age, as he has never gotten into one
particular style/genre and refined it.)  He's also worked a lot at helping
to get older musicians work out there & better understood - he wrote the
analytic notes for the Wergo Conlon Nancarrow releases, & lots of essays
about Ives, Cowell, Varese, Ruggles, etc. before they were known as well as
they are now.

In addition to Bridge & Flocking (both written for two pianos in just
intonation, but each instrument is out of tune from the by about a quarter
tone - all of the pitches are justly derived, so the "quarter"-tones are
not equal tempered) that Brian mentioned, Hat has a couple of forthcoming
discs listed on their sadly uninformative Web site & New Albion is
supposedly releasing something in 1999 as well.

There's a collection of electronic pieces from the US label Artifact that
includes a variety of early computer music works done at Bell Labs (he was
one of the first artists in residence there 30-40 years ago). It also
includes his Collage #1 (Blue Suede) a tape manipulation piece, with a bit
of signal processing, mostly filtering, drawn entirely from Elvis Presley's
recording of the Carl Perkins tune.  The Canadian label Artifact has
released several CDs with chamber music by Tenney.  A few other pieces are
available on scattered anthologies, collections etc.

The Canadian magazine Musicworks had an all-Tenney issue in the early 1980s
that included a cassette of lots of pieces, as well as a very good
interview and some essays & scores.  The US magazine Soundings (edited by
Peter Garland, whose name came up here a while back) had an all-Tenney
issue around the same time that had a lengthy catalog of his compositions
with lots of description & analysis, as well as other information & essays.



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Glaspole <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nancarrow
Date: 20 Dec 1998 08:43:12 +1100

Hi there
My parents-in-law have a player piano.  Has any of Nancarrow's scrolls
ever been manufactured?  If so are they available anywhere?
Probably stupid questions but thought I'd ask.
Regards
Jim Glaspole


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stuff and nonsense, etc.
Date: 19 Dec 1998 16:55:27 -0500

At 01:04 PM 12/18/98 -0500, Taylor McLaren wrote:
>
>I'm wondering if a lot of
>what has been said about faux spirituality and indie kids and all of that
>might be tied into the same lack of a (white?) American national identity,
>or even if people think that the sudden lack of a specific national focus
>might be a part of why jazz at large is largely considered to be
>floundering these days.

I'm not entirely sure that jazz is foundering, given that as a term it
covers a wide range of musical activity, mostly centered around
improvisation.  There are several radio stations (even an AM station) in my
area which play a variety of jazz, and jazz albums are prominently
displayed in the local record stores.

But what bothers me more here is the assumption that jazz should be a
distinctly 'American' art form.  First, haven't nationalist notions gotten
the world in enough trouble?  Why do we need to extend these to something
as univeral as music?  But more importantly, improvisation has a long
tradition in many other forms of musical expression, and in particular the
European expression (most commonly known as 'classical' music) has merged
with jazz in interesting and fruitful ways.  One of the strengths of jazz
as practiced by most anyone who's recorded on Hat, to take only one
example, is the awareness of both musical traditions and the *lack* of a
specific national focus.


--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "robert ludington" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Slan, Modern(free)Drummer
Date: 19 Dec 1998 16:43:35 PST

     I recently picked up 'Live at the Knitting Factory Vol.3' while
combing the 3 for 8$ at a nearby music store.  Since reading about Slan
in the 'Locus Solus' liner notes I was pleased to see the 2 tracks by
Slan, and i thoroughly enjoyed them.  It was also nice to hear Ted
Epstein in a setting outside of Blind Idiot God, and playing with Zorn
(i've had a hard time tracking down B.I.G's 'Undertow' which he's on).
Anyhow, i was wondering if there are/were any Slan albums, or was this
just a group Zorn formed for live shows?  Any other documents of their
live playing?  Also, i've heard that Epstein has left B.I.G, is he
currently playing in any other settings?
     I've enjoyed the current free jazz thread enourmously, since i
don't have too too much in depth knowledge on the subject(me being one
of the mentioned indie/experimental rock kids lured into such murky
waters by Zorn's work).  I thought i'd mention that Modern Drummer
magazine has had several interesting articles/interviews lately on free
jazz/ny downtown drummers like Jim Black, Susie Ibarra, & Greg
Bendian.... there might be copies or excerpts at the Modern Drummer
website, or if not i could post the back issue if there's any
interest....

thanx for your time,
~rob

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: anyone go to this (marclay,mori,parkins)??
Date: 20 Dec 1998 10:45:10 EST

did anyone go to this? any reviews. thanks
jt

>Christian Marclay & Ikue Mori & Zeena Parkins
>Saturday December 19
>9 & 10 pm
>$ 10
>The Knitting Factory

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: New Swap List
Date: 20 Dec 1998 12:22:57 EST

CD's for sale or exchange. I'm interested in similar stuff: Revenant, Tzad=
ik,
Avant all welcome together with music concrete, RLW and anything interesti=
ngly
experimental.

Violent Onsen Geisha: Que Sera Sera,  =09Por Supesto Records
Collage madness from Japanese maniac. Everything goes into the blender, ea=
sy
listening, hardcore, pop... you name it, it gets abused!

Universal Congress of...: The Eleventh Hour Shine On,=09Enemy
Founded by members of Saccharine Trust. Angular, punky Jazz with a bit of =
a
blues bent too. Features quite a decent take on Ornette=92s Broadway Blues=
.

LA 1919: Jouer, Spielen, To Play,  Materiali Sonori
Electric Avant rock workouts from two Italian guitarists featuring guest
drummers Chris Cutler and Charles Hayward. Muscular and quite noisy.

Bang on a Can: Industry, Sony Classical
Stars of NY=92s festival of the same name. Heavy duty minimalism by compos=
ers
suach as  Louis Andriessen, Michael Gordon and David Lang.

Bob Ostertag, Attention Span, RecRec
Ostertag manipulates samples from Frith and Zorn.

Peril: Peril, Survival
Otomo Yoshihide adds his usual chaos to heavy rock, sample dense Naked Cit=
y
style improv by  Tony Buck, Kato Hideki and Michael Sheridan.

Jim O'Rourke: Happy Days   Revenant
O'Rourke continues his exploration of two of is hero's styles, in this cas=
e
Fahey meets Tony Conrad, in one giant acoustic guitar piece whose gentle
picking is gradually overwhelmed by the sounds of massed hurdy gurdys. Abo=
ut
halfway through the guitar is all but obliterated by the droning than, jus=
t as
gradually it creeps back into focus.

DJ Spooky: Songs of a Dead Dreamer. Asphodel.
Lengthy collage work of found sounds and samples moulded into a dreamlike
soundscape.

The Notwist: 12. IRS.
Currently fashionable Bavarian avant rock outfit. Fairly noisy, angular ro=
ck
type stuff.

Max Roach/Archie Shepp: The Long March pt1. hat ART
More epic sax/drums duets. Impossible to undervalue the empathetic powers =
of
these two. Starts with a solo track by each (Roach employing the kind of g=
ob
smacking stop/start brittle percussives that Photek would shed limbs to be
able to synthesise)which gives way to extended duo interplay.

Tha 13 Ghosts: Giganti Reptilicus Destructo Beam. Scatter.
Bizarre disc of screaming punk rock improv as perpetrated by Alex Ward, Sw=
itch
and a host of guests inc Jim Denley, Pat Thomas, Evan Thomas and others.

The Electric Eels. Their Organic Majesty's Request. Overground.
Seminal 70's US punk as beloved of Ubu's David Thomas. Noisy, obnoxious an=
d
resolutely lo-fi.

Various: Unsettled Scores. Cuneiform. 2cd.
A label sampler with a difference as label regulars cover each other's tun=
es.
featuring the likes of Hugh Hopper, Henry Kaiser, The Muffins, C.W. Vratce=
k,
Rattlemouth, Richard Pinhas, Dr Nerve/Univers Zero and many others.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan E Kayser <[e-mail]>
Subject: Artur Nowak
Date: 21 Dec 1998 08:26:13 -0500

Sorry to take up the space, but...

Artur, my e-mails to you keep getting bounced back as undelivered.  I
need your address.

Alan Kayser


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "J.T. de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Prelapse albums
Date: 21 Dec 1998 15:12:02 +0200

I just bought 'Music for Children' and I wondered if Prelapse have
brought out albums themselves.

Thanks,

Jeroen

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: question about Dresser's EYE'LL BE SEEING YOU
Date: 21 Dec 1998 11:04:44 -0800


    Does anybody know the story about this record? The liner notes indica-
te 13 tracks, but the the CD has in fact 16 of them.


*** - EYE'LL BE SEEING YOU: Mark Dresser

    Recorded at the Knitting Factory in 1997 and 1998

  Mark Dresser: bass; Chris Speed: clarinet, tenor; Anthony Coleman: piano,
  organ.

    1998 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFW-211 (CD)


    Thanks,

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Georgette Sliepen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Parachute Years
Date: 22 Dec 1998 01:19:27 +0200

Hye Zornies,

I wonder if I should invest in the box-set "The Parachute
Years"(Lacrosse,Hockey,
Pool,Archery).Does anyone own this material and is it worth purchasing?


Olivier




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parachute Years
Date: 21 Dec 1998 17:50:06 -0800



Georgette Sliepen wrote:

> Hye Zornies,
>
> I wonder if I should invest in the box-set "The Parachute
> Years"(Lacrosse,Hockey,
> Pool,Archery).Does anyone own this material and is it worth purchasing?
>
> Olivier
>
> -

  absolutely!!!  especially if you enjoy Cobra or other "game"
compositions.  the music largely comes across as pure free improv with
interesting all-star lineups.  but after careful listening the
"compositions" become more evident (perhaps not to the extent of a live
performance of course).  i was lucky and found this in a Portland record
store for $49.99! i checked back later and they had corrected the price on
the other box up to $89.
patrick in portland


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what is Marty Ehrlich up to these days?
Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:17:02 -0500

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>         I just realized that Marty Ehrlich has been quite "discographically"
> silent these past few years. Anybody (from the city) knows what is he up to
> these days?

I just heard Marty twice a few weeks ago with the latest version of his
Traveller's Tale quartet - this one with Tony Malaby, tenor and soprano sax,
Jerome Harris, acoustic bass guitar, and Bobby Previte, bad-ass drumming.
Completely killing.  One long piece dedicated to the late keyboardist Don
Grolnick reminded me quite a lot of Bloodcount with a different leader.

I'd also heard Marty in weeks prior in Andrew Hill's sextet and in a very fine
Billy Strayhorn tribute in Brooklyn curated by Greg Cohen and featuring, among
others, Joey Baron.  Also on that program was the generally more traditional
jazz clarinetist Ken Peplowski, on whose recent album "Grenadilla" Marty
appears, as do two of his compositions.

Marty also played at the Knitting Factory tonight with his Dark Woods Ensemble
(Erik Friedlander, cello, Mark Helias, bass) with special guest Marc Ribot.
That quartet is due to record a disc for Tzadik's Radical Jewish Culture line
imminently, according to Marty.  I was not able to attend and would love to hear
from anyone who did.

Aside from that, Enja will release an album by the co-operative trio Relativity
in '99 -- Ehrlich, Michael Formanek, and Peter Erskine.  (This is the disc that
will include the abovementioned Grolnick tribute, which will doubtless sound
quite different with only one sax player.)  And the very fine
Ehrlich/Dresser/Cyrille trio will also issue a disc in '99 on a German label of
which I'd never heard, and the name of which I don't recall.  When I hear more
I'll let you know.

Marty also recently led a tribute to Julius Hemphill featuring the Ehrlich-led
Julius Hemphill Saxophone Sextet as well as a big band playing the music from
Hemphill's lone big band album, that got amazing reviews and word-of-mouth,
although I missed it.  The most recent release from the JHSS, "At Dr. King's
Table," was issued by New World in 1998.

Marty is featured on the Jerome Harris disc to be issued in January on the
Stereophile (as in the high-end gear mag) label, via Allegro Distribution.  (The
rest of the band, as I remember it, is trombonist Art Baron, vibraphonist Steve
Nelson and drummer Billy Drummond.)  He also spoke of putting together a new
band featuring Malaby, a guitarist TBA, Jerome and Billy.  Marty's not working
much with longtime sideman Stan Strickland since Stan's very busy in the Boston
area with mostly extramusical activities.

Marty will be touring Europe in 1999 as part of Bobby Previte's Bump the
Renaissance band.  Details coming soon at the at-long-last-regularly-updated
Previte homepage.

Rest assured, Marty's shining as brightly as ever here in NYC.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(catching up on old mail for the holidays)
NP - Gordon Haskell live in San Rafael, CA 11/22/98


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hasidic new wave in the KF
Date: 22 Dec 1998 15:45:55 -0500

hi.

does anybody know how many shows there are this thursday (12/24) of
hasidic new wave in the knitting factory and what time? and if their
show is combined with the saft/speed/black show, or do you have to buy
separate tickets?
i looked at the website which says two combined shows at 8 and 1030, but
somewhere i read that there are two separate shows, saft/speed/black at
8 and hasidic new wave at 9....

please help me...

robert

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject:
Date: 22 Dec 1998 18:50:26 -0700

>But on the other
>hand, as Eric so rightly put it, it's important to employ a tad of
>phenomenological method here and try to assess what the musicians' goals
>were and what they're trying to convey to the audience.

I believe that this is called the "intentionalist fallacy," in the visual
arts.  Many argue that it's not possible to know what the artist intended,
and that it's likely that even the artist doesn't "really" know what he or
she intended. Is this something that you music critic types consider?

BTW, I do consider reviews in my buying decisions, I consider my fellow
zornlisters more. But what I often do, which is so easy in the incestuous
jazz world, (as opposed to the pop world) is to pick up a disk by someone I
don't know, because it has someone I do know on it. This has lead to many,
many fine choices, and only a couple of duds.

Also, did I miss any conversation regarding Don Byron's latest
"Nublaxploitation," which both a good friend of mine and I found
unlistenable. I literally had to turn it off 2/3rds of the way through, and
haven't been able to finish it since.

yours in zornocity --ds

***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Tenney
Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:48:40 -0500

Herb Levy <[e-mail]> wrote very nice description
of Tenney's work and then dropped this stunning bit of misinformation:

In addition to Bridge & Flocking (both written for two pianos in just

> intonation, but each instrument is out of tune from the by about a quarter
> tone - all of the pitches are justly derived, so the "quarter"-tones are
> not equal tempered) that Brian mentioned, Hat has a couple of forthcoming
> discs listed on their sadly uninformative Web site & New Albion is
> supposedly releasing something in 1999 as well.

These are two different pieces. Bridging & Flocking is just the name of the CD.

Bridge (1984) is tuned in 5 limit just intonation. See the tuning
lattice on page 4 of the liner notes. What's neat about the tuning is that
while the two pianos share some pitches, one piano has the over tones
of five while the other piano has the under tones.

Flocking (1993) was written 9 years later. While it too is a piece
for two pianos, it is tuned for two pianos a quarter tone apart.
This tuning is also known as 24 tone equal temperament, which has
nothing to do with just intonation and the harmonic series.

I don't know about Tenney's other work in tuning, but he isn't exactly
being radical in his tunings. For example both the Deep Listening
Band  (7 limit?) and the Long String Instrument (13 limit) are more
innovative in how they travel up the harmonic series.

And they too - not as far as La Monte Young (who?), Glenn Branca, Ezra Simms,
or maybe Ben Johnston, but I'm getting carried away...


--
* D a v i d        B e a r d s l e y
*           [e-mail]
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n     E z i n e
* M E L A  v i r t u a l  d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ginger Baker's _No Material_
Date: 23 Dec 1998 12:47:14 -0600 (CST)


Hello,

Any opinions on this disc which features, among others, Brotzmann and
Skopelitis?

Happy holidays,

Paul
[e-mail]

  GROOVE
----------
One Nation



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: James Tenney/La Monte Young
Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:25:34 -0500



David Beardsley wrote:

>And they too - not as far as La Monte Young (who?), Glenn Branca, Ezra Simms,
>or maybe Ben Johnston, but I'm getting carried away...

     As a staunch Young advocate, perhaps you or someone else can help me
     over my stumbling block with him. I picked up 'The Well-Tuned Piano'
     back when it was first released on Gramavision (mid 80's?) and have
     since gotten the 'High Tension Wire..." (or whatever the complete
     title is) and "Just Stompin'" discs, have listened many a time and
     have yet to get what the hubbub is about. With WTP, I can enjoy the
     tunings (at least to a limited non-musician extent; I can't tell a
     9-limit from a hole in the ground) but I don't hear a great deal of
     beautiful "music" otherwise. Obviously, one could listen to WTP the
     same way I can perform 4'33" on my way to work, but I imagine that's
     not what Mr. Young has in mind. Often, it sounds to me similar
     (allowing for tuning differences) to Jarrett's meanderings. A more
     appropriate comparison, though with different instruments, might be to
     David Hykes' Harmonic Choir: a fascinating technique applied to bland,
     newagey music.

     Now, I've never heard Young's music live, and can imagine that the
     physical sensations encountered sitting in the same space might have
     great effect similar to the buzzing-in-the-ears one gets at a Branca
     concert. But, to these buzzing ears, Branca has a lot more going on
     conceptually.

     In other words, what's there beyond the tuning? My love of, say,
     Partch, has much more to do with his musical conception than with a
     tuning system (though perhaps, one might argue that they're
     indistinguishable--I'm not so sure), a color in his palette. If the
     answer lies in mystic underpinnings that I'm not accepting, well, I'm
     not. But lack of agreement with an artist's philosophical/religious
     belief system doesn't prevent me from loving a Raphael
     Transfiguration, a Dostoevski novel or a Ghanaian funeral service.

     So, what am I missing?

     Ready to be pilloried,

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: James Tenney/La Monte Young
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:19:52 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

> David Beardsley wrote:
>
> >And they too - not as far as La Monte Young (who?), Glenn Branca, Ezra Simms,
> >or maybe Ben Johnston, but I'm getting carried away...
>
>      As a staunch Young advocate, perhaps you or someone else can help me
>      over my stumbling block with him. I picked up 'The Well-Tuned Piano'
>      back when it was first released on Gramavision (mid 80's?) and have
>      since gotten the 'High Tension Wire..." (or whatever the complete
>      title is) and "Just Stompin'" discs, have listened many a time and
>      have yet to get what the hubbub is about. With WTP, I can enjoy the
>      tunings (at least to a limited non-musician extent; I can't tell a
>      9-limit from a hole in the ground) but I don't hear a great deal of
>      beautiful "music" otherwise. Obviously, one could listen to WTP the
>      same way I can perform 4'33" on my way to work, but I imagine that's
>      not what Mr. Young has in mind. Often, it sounds to me similar
>      (allowing for tuning differences) to Jarrett's meanderings. A more
>      appropriate comparison, though with different instruments, might be to
>      David Hykes' Harmonic Choir: a fascinating technique applied to bland,
>      newagey music.

I can understand that but there is composition involved in the WTP.La Monte
improvises his way through the piece going from theme
to theme to variation. I think if one listened to the WTP as ambient
background music - and I'm not saying you do - , they might miss
some of the finer points. Try following the subtitles with a stop
watch and you'll catch the themes and variations. I like the clouds.

I also like the sound of the tuning. I'd say that one of
his goals is exploiting the tuning to get those sum & difference tones
that float above and below the notes that are actually played.
It has a trance like effect on me.

I have a friend and business associate named Bruce who
has a term for all this: subtle. It should be noted that tuning
isn't a style of music, and there are composers/musicans
who have a different approach. A few nights ago, I caught
a microtonal hard rock band - Birdhouse - at the Mercury
Lounge. Very high energy. Hardly New Age.

And then there's Joe & Mat Maneri's 72 equal temperament jazz,
72 being really close to just. I caught Mat with Joe Morris
recently at the Knit and his violin playing just blew me away.
Nothing mellow about his violin except the finish maybe.


>      Now, I've never heard Young's music live,

All I've ever heard live is his singing with Pandit Pran Nath anda performance of
his string quartet Chronos Kristalla at BAM in '95.
I wish you could hear Poem for Chairs, Tables, Benches, etc. (chairs, tables,
benches and unspecified sound sources) - noise from furniture
being dragged. In a way, La Monte has a bit in common with Xenakis.

If you're in town, stop by and check out the sound and light installation at
the Dream House, that's a wildly dissonant chord. I say that in the 2  1/2
years that I've been watching the place, I seen a couple of people
practically run out, although people generally stay.  ;)

It's right around the corner from the Knit. Thurs & Sat 2pm - 12 midnight.
Check the web site for other details.


>      and can imagine that the
>      physical sensations encountered sitting in the same space might have
>      great effect similar to the buzzing-in-the-ears one gets at a Branca
>      concert. But, to these buzzing ears, Branca has a lot more going on
>      conceptually.

Speaking just for me - Branca's non-tuning works do a lot less for me than
his tuned works do. However I'm a big fan of his symphonies #3, 5 & 6.

>      In other words, what's there beyond the tuning? My love of, say,
>      Partch, has much more to do with his musical conception

Yeah, but aren't the instruments cool? Even if they were in12 tone equal
temperament they would sound pretty wacky.

>      than with a
>      tuning system (though perhaps, one might argue that they're
>      indistinguishable--I'm not so sure), a color in his palette.

Is is infinitely many more colors. One of the advantages to this whole tuning
bizis this: You've might have heard of music being described as major = happy
and minor = sad. We're just touching on more colors.


>      If the
>      answer lies in mystic underpinnings that I'm not accepting, well, I'm
>      not. But lack of agreement with an artist's philosophical/religious

>      belief system doesn't prevent me from loving a Raphael
>      Transfiguration, a Dostoevski novel or a Ghanaian funeral service.
>
>      So, what am I missing?

If I didn't answer that question, hopefully I shed a bit of light on it.I hope
people don't have a problem with the subject of this thread,
La Monte was downtown long before the Knitting Factory even existed.

>      Ready to be pilloried,

Naa...

--
* D a v i d        B e a r d s l e y
*           [e-mail]
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n     E z i n e
* M E L A  v i r t u a l  d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm





-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: James Tenney/La Monte Young
Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:40:31 EST


In a message dated 12/23/98 6:31:12 PM, [e-mail]
wrote:

<<      Now, I've never heard Young's music live>>

I saw the Forever Blues Band play Lincoln Center just after that record was
released. It was very similar to the record, not surprisingly. but I found it
quite enjoyable, I must say, to see these four guys playing their heads off in
a piece that progressed so slowly. other than that, what I remember most about
this concert is that half the audience walked out well before it ended, while
the other half gave it a thunderous ovation at the end, which I found
immensely amusing.

The Second Dream... is an amazing record to fall asleep to. guaranteed to give
you cool dreams.

and I've never actually heard The Well-Tuned Piano. if anyone's interested in
selling it for a reasonable price or trading other discs for it, please e-mail
me.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ginger Baker's _No Material_
Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:05:18 EST

In a message dated 12/23/98 1:57:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> Any opinions on this disc which features, among others, Brotzmann and
>  Skopelitis?

I have this CD.  Never really play it much as I was expecting a Last Exit sort
of sound- which it delivered in places, but not with the same "energy"
throughout as those previous CDs do.  To be perfectly honest, I think Baker's
rather blase' drumming here holds back a wonderful lead section in Sko' and
Brotzmann.  Okay, but plenty more out there i'd buy if given the chance again.

=dgasque=

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lavrans Schr°der <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada
Date: 05 Dec 1998 01:48:56 +0100

I am goig to write a paper on Zorns Masada project, and i was wondering
if the songs on Masada and Bar Kokbah are his own compositions or are
the original jewish folk songs? And if they are jewish folk songs: where
can i get the origianls (sheet music)???
    Gaute




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "holly findlater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: as for improv-art-saturation-and the loss of all thats fresh?
Date: 25 Dec 1998 22:59:00 PST

maybe
  last nite
 you woke
       up with
   knots in your fingers
    and
      sand on your tongue
       but
          this
             morning
      you
     are
    loose and wet
  and
somehow not defined-






______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsliepen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Parachute Years
Date: 26 Dec 1998 13:32:36 +0100

Hye Zornies,

I wonder if I should invest in the box-set "The Parachute
Years"(Lacrosse,Hockey,
Pool,Archery).Does anyone own this material and is it worth purchasing?


Olivier

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: my notable reissues of 1998
Date: 27 Dec 1998 02:25:16 EST

Anal Magic & Rev. Dwight Frizzell-Beyond The Black Crack (Paradigm)
Art Ensemble Of Chicago-Baptizum, Fanfare For The Warriors (Atlantic UK)
David Behrman-Wave Train (Alga Marghen)
Marion Brown-Afternoon Of A Georgia Faun (ECM)
Eugene Chadbourne-Solo Acoustic Guitar, Volume 2 (Rastascan)
Dead C.-Harsh 70s Reality (Siltbreeze)
Franco Evangelisti-Franco Evangelisti (double CD on Editions RZ)
Terry Fox-Ataraxia (Plate Lunch)
Mnemonists-Horde (ReR)
Arne Nordheim-Electric (Rune Grammofon)
Omit-Quad (triple CD on Corpus Hermeticum)
Organum-Volume One (Robot)
Pharoah Sanders-Summun Bukmun Umyun (Impulse)
Sun Ra-Black Myth/Out In Space (double CD on MPS)
Taj Mahal Travellers-August 1974 (double CD on P-Vine)
Rafael Toral-Wave Field (Dexter's Cigar)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: my notable records of 1998
Date: 27 Dec 1998 02:25:08 EST

Derek Bailey-Takes Fakes & Dead She Dances (Incus)
Kjetil D. Brandsdal-Freedom-Waaaohwaaoh (Corpus Hermeticum)
Jonathan Coleclough-Cake (Robot)
Maxime De La Rochefoucauld-Automates XI (Plastique)
DJ Disk-Ancient Termites (Bomb Hip-Hop)
Don't Dolby-Don't Dolby (Gefriem)
Simon Fell-Composition No. 30: Compilation III (double CD on Bruce's Fingers)
Hatohan-Hatohan (Hacca)
K-Salvatore-Four Impossible Puns (double LP on Siwa)
Martin Klapper & Roger Turner-Recent Croaks (Acta)
George Lewis & Bertram Turetsky-Conversations (Incus)
Denman Maroney-Hyperpiano (self-released CD)
Massive Attack-Mezzanine (Virgin)
Matmos-Quasi-Objects (Vague Terrain)
Kouhei Matsunaga-Upside Down (Mille Plateaux)
Loren Mazzacane-Evangeline (Road Cone), In Twilight (Alien8)
Butch Morris-Tit For Tat (For 4 Ears)
Gunter Muller & Jim O'Rourke-Weighting (For 4 Ears)
1/Tau-Hikuioto (1/Tau)
Orchester 33 1/3-Orchester 33 1/3 (Plag Dich Nicht/Rhiz)
Evan Parker-Live At Les Instants Chavires (Leo)
Pomassl-Trail Error (Laton)
Radian-Radian (Rhiz)
RST-R136a (Ecstatic Peace)
Starfuckers-Infrantumi (Drunken Fish)
Taku Sugimoto-Opposite (Hat Noir)
Cecil Taylor-The Tree Of Life (FMP)
Martin Tetreault-La Nuit Ou J'Ai Dit Non (Audioview)
TV Pow-Away Team (BOXMedia)
Voice Crack-Below Beyond Above (Uhlang)
Various Artists-Meme (Meme)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: my notable records of 1998
Date: 27 Dec 1998 08:01:27 -0800 (PST)

>Derek Bailey-Takes Fakes & Dead She Dances (Incus)
>Kjetil D. Brandsdal-Freedom-Waaaohwaaoh (Corpus Hermeticum)

    [clip]

    before the zorn-list gets a barrage of fave
    album lists, I would like to remind everyone
    that it is preferable to include a review/comment
    for each item of your list. By doing that, your
    list will have some actual content, and possibly
    form the seed for a discussion, rather than be
    a rote enumeration.

    mike rizzi
    the fist and power behind the zorn-list :)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: my notable records of 1998
Date: 27 Dec 1998 12:50:14 EST


In a message dated 12/27/98 11:04:56 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<before the zorn-list gets a barrage of fave
    album lists, I would like to remind everyone
    that it is preferable to include a review/comment
    for each item of your list. By doing that, your
    list will have some actual content, and possibly
    form the seed for a discussion, rather than be
    a rote enumeration.>>

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions, private or public, about any
of these records, how they sound or how to try to get them. I've mentioned a
fair amount of these records on this list already this year, usually with some
description, and it typically leads to zero discussion. I feel like I've
contributed enough opinions and discussion to this list so that anyone paying
attention has a pretty good idea as to my taste and how (or whether) it
overlaps with theirs. therefore, I felt that a "rote enumeration" would prove
useful to at least some people out there. I put a fair amount of time into
putting this list together, and I apologize if anyone felt spammed by it.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Year's Best and then some (annotated)
Date: 28 Dec 1998 11:01:08 -0500


     Top ten releases, more or less from 1998:

     Derek Bailey       Takes Fakes and Dead She Dances         Incus

     A fine collection of solo pieces (including some recitation) very
     much in line with Bailey's solo work from recent years and, imo, the
     equal of any of them, which makes it among the best music anywhere.

     Howard Skempton    Well, Well, Cornelius                   Sony

     Short solo piano pieces (perfomed by AMM's John Tilbury). Think
     Satie, with dashes of Feldman, Cardew and Rzewski. Gorgeous stuff.

     Anthony Braxton    Compositions 10 + 16 (+101)             Hat [now]

     Hopefully just an early step towards the consideration of Braxton's
     great body of work as repertoire for all creative musicians.
     Striking, sensitive work from Jim O'Rourke, Guillermo Gregorio a.o.

     John Zorn          The Circle Maker                        Tzadik

     What's to say that everyone here doesn't know? Lovely, mature work
     from our favorite son. Especially fine performances from Feldman and
     Ribot.

     Rabih Abou-Khalil  Odd Times                               Enja

     Unusual ensemble (oud, harmonica, tuba and percussion) playing
     jazz-inflected Middle Eastern music with great spirit. Think of
     an earthier Simon Shaheen.

     John Zorn          Masada Tet                              DIW

     Still going strong at this point.

     Fred Frith         Pacifica                                Tzadik

     Serene, lovely piece incorporating Neruda texts and found sounds.
     Calm, contemplative and very beautiful.

     John Zorn          Filmworks VIII                          Tzadik

     I know some found things herein a wee bit precious, but not me.
     Great work from Min Xiao-Fen, Ribot and Anthony Coleman on the
     first section and spirited fun from Baptista and Wolleson on
     'Latin Boys Go to Hell'.

     Teodoro Anzelotti  Erik Satie                     Winter & Winter

     A must for Satie and/or accordion fans.

     Kazutoki Umezu     Ahiru                                   Nani

     How can one resist a 20 piece Japanese Klezmer ensemble doing rousing
     versions of 'Tum Balalayke', 'Bay Mir Bistu Sheyn' and [English
     transalation of the Yiddish] 'I Wanna Go Where the Wild Goose Goes'?

     Honorable mention:

     Aaly Trio w/KvDM   Stumble                                 Wobbly Rail
     Derek Bailey/
        Joelle Leandre  No Waiting                              Potlatch
     Martin Bartlett    Burning Water                           Periplum
     La Banda           Banda and Jazz                          Enja
     Peter Brotzmann    Chicago Octet/Tentet                    Okkadisk
     Brian Eno/BOAC     Music for Airports                      Point
     Ellery Eskelin     One Great Day...                        Hatology
     Morton Feldman     Neither                                 hat[now]
     Ground Zero        Plays Standards                         Nani
     Barry Guy          Three Pieces for Orchestra              Intakt
     Min Xiao-Fen       Spring, River, Flower, Moon, Night      Asphodel
     Previte/Zorn...    Downtown Lullaby                        Depth
     Taku Sugimoto      Opposite                                Hat Noir
     David Shea         Mort aux Vaches                         Staalplaat
     David Shea         Classical Works                         Tzadik
     Ken Vandermark     Target or Flag                          Atavistic
     John Wall          Fractuur                                Utterpsalm
     John Zorn          The Bribe                               Tzadik
     John Zorn          Masada Yod                              DIW
     (Various)Burma     White Elephants & Golden Ducks          Shanachie
     (Various)Ghana     Drums of Death                          Avant

     Most fondly remembered live shows:

     Steven Drury and Anthony de Mare performing Rzewski        The Kitchen
     Bar Kokhba Chamber Ensemble                                Tonic
     Elliot Sharp's Terraplane                                  Knit
     Guy Klucevsek solo                                         Tonic
     Tambastics                                                 Knit

     Phew!

     Brian Olewnick



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Kowalski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Zorn List Digest V2 #563
Date: 28 Dec 1998 11:20:50 -0500

I'll be out of the office until December 29th - if you need immediate assistance please call an Info Center staff member at either ext. 1320 or 8265.  Happy Holidays!

Bob


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (Members of) Comma (and Friends) in Austin, TX
Date: 28 Dec 1998 11:20:39 -0600 (CST)

[of possible interest to Zornlisters...]

Performance: (Members of) COMMA (and Friends)

Members of the Washington, DC, based experimental ensemble Comma, in
conjunction with a crew of cutting-edge Texas cronies, will be
performing at 33 Degrees in Austin on Wednesday, December 30th, at 8 PM.

Comma includes intermittent Austinite Joseph Zitt (formerly of Empty Words
and the Human Systems Performance Group), once-and-future Houstonian
Thomas Bickley (leader of Deep Listening(TM) workshops, who has recorded
with the Denison/Kimball Trio), and stuck-on-the-east-coast opera and new
music specialist Matthew Ross Davis.

Zitt and Bickley will be joined for this performance by
- Josh Ronsen (of Brekekekexkoaxkoax),
- Jay Rozen (of the Creative Opportunity Orchestra),
- John Snyder (formerly of Empty Words),
- Tim Wood (of "Question Authority, the", Dallas's "The Word",
  and poetryvideo.com),
- Bobby Corbell (of Mezaway),
- Thom the World Poet (of, well, the world),
and surprising guests.

The performance will include music by John Cage, pieces by the performers,
and improvisations by the entire group (and subsets thereof). The show is
free and open to the public.  33 Degrees is at 4017 Guadalupe (476-7333)


- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Felix" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Three Recent Goodies
Date: 28 Dec 1998 23:13:20 +0100

I got these today. Stuff that will undoubtedly TRANSFORM my ass!

NAKED CITY - HERETIC (jeux des dames cruelles)
The only thing I missed from Naked City. Absinthe may be really weird, but
this baby is not far behind. I like particularly the way the whole band is
never together except for one track, and the whole album develops in duets
or trios (or should I call them duels and triels?). I like specially the
Zorn/Eye duets, where, in my opinion, Eye shows the real range of his voice.
He may have done some weird things with his voice for other NC albums (don't
know The Boredoms), but here he completely goes mad!
Is this "motion picture" actually for real, I mean, does it really exist? I
couldn't help notice that the leaflet was lacking any reference to the movie
or it's maker(s) unlike other JZ filmworks... Great! But you should hear it
before you buy it...

MARC RIBOT - SHOE STRING SIMPHONETTES
I liked this one alot, Ribot surprized me as a composer. But I think the
Real Audio in the Tzadik homepagedoesn't really do justice to the album. It
introduces it as something it is not, which is a "surf guitar" album. The
only "surf" song in the album is actually the one in the tzadik Homepage.
The album is VERY GOOD indeed.

ORCHESTER 33 1/3
WOW! I think there's a bit of everything in this CD. Excellent work by these
austrian fellows. I hope to hear more from them in the future.

Felix
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #557
Date: 29 Dec 1998 00:34:44 +0100


 As always, I'm a few digests behind, but ...

 Rick Lopez wrote about different perceptions of music when starting with it
 and after years of listening to it:

> Has anyone out there had any progressions of this kind that they can actually
> recall enough to talk about the differences?

 Well, I can. When I first listened to Herbie's "Sextant", it blew me away.
 You'll have to know that I was 14 and only listened to Iron Maiden, Helloween
 and Queen at that time. I had no idea about jazz, about fusion, about chords
 or arrangements or improvisation vs. composition, anything - I just loved the
 sounds. Well, I listened to this album very often; at first, I really thought
 that all the music was performed by Hancock, and that it was all performed
 on synthesizers! You couldn't even say that I didn't care because I just
 didn't *know*. Anyway, I was so fascinated. I checked out more of Herbie's
 recordings (Headhunters, Thrust...), and I really wanted to dig into the music.
 I realized that there were various musicians, playing different instruments.
 I tried to find out what everybody did. Well, I couldn't tell a trumpet from
 a trombone or a clavinet from a guitar, but I tried to. Eventually Herbie led
 me to other jazz performers, and he lead me to jazz itself. And I gradually
 learned to tell who's doing what.

 This was the first big change in my listening perception. The second came
 only years later, because I was so much into jazz I didn't really listen to
 anything else. However, there was this bassist whose name popped up every
 once in a while, e.g. on "Mooko", on "Future Shock", on "Memory Serves" ...
 you know it's Bill Laswell; I wanted to check out some of his stuff, even
 though I had no idea what it's like. I got the Divination disc "Ambient Dub
 volume I" and all my preoccupations about techno, programmed music, etc.
 went away. Laswell led me to lots of styles (like I guess he did for many
 people) - he also led me to check who's the producer of a record. The
 interesting thing came when I returned to the jazz records I hadn't really
 listened to for a while - there was so much I hadn't noticed before! I
 couldn't recognize all the influences on Miles' "Agharta" before because I
 just didn't know all these kinds of music - Cosey's Hendryx-like guitar
 playing (I would never have thought of checking out Jimi's music before),
 the James Brown influences - but suddenly it was all there. Before, it was
 all jazz to me; funk-jazz or acoustic jazz for sure, but nothing else.

 By the way, I'm still interested mostly in the sounds.

 I don't know other people had such experiences in "learning" to listen to
 music, but I surely can tell the different between what it was like then and
 today. Rick, I hope this answered your question.

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ----------------------------------------------------
 Chris Genzel -- [e-mail]
 ----------------------------------------------------
 Discographies of
 Herbie Hancock, Michael Beinhorn & Bennie Maupin at:
 http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/
 ----------------------------------------------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tonic's New Music Series - January
Date: 28 Dec 1998 19:12:17 -0500 (EST)


The New Music Series at Tonic
January curated by Arto Lindsay

107 Norfolk Street
(Between Delancey and Rivington)
(F to Delancey or the JMZ to Essex)
New York City
Info line: 212-358-7503 / www.tonic107.com


Friday, January 1 ($10)
John Zorn & friends improv party
(special unadvertised show)

Saturday, January 2 ($10)
Dougie Bowne

Wednesday, January 6 ($10)
Zeena Parkins, Alan Licht & Lukas Ligeti

Thursday, January 7 ($10 double bill)
Eyvind Kang & Ted Reichman at 9:00
Guy Klucevsek at 10:30

Friday, January 8 ($10)
Cyro Baptista

Friday, January 8 ($4)
Midnight
Slowpoke (Dave Tronzo, Kenny Wollesen, Michael Blake, Tony Scherr)

Saturday, January 9 ($10)
Eyvind Kang

Wednesday, January 13 ($10 double bill)
Gabriel Zagni at 9:00
Felix Sanabria at 10:30

Thursday, January 14 ($10)
Leonid Soybelman (of Ne Zhdali, Kletka Red) w/ Marc Ribot & others

Friday, January 15 ($10 double bill)
Peter Scherer at 9:00
Dougie Bowne (w/ Dave Douglas, Chris Speed & others) at 10:30

Friday, January 15 ($4)
Midnight
Slowpoke (Dave Tronzo, Kenny Wollesen, Michael Blake, Tony Scherr)

Saturday, January 16 ($10)
Melvin Gibbs

Wednesday, January 20 ($10 double bill)
Ikue Mori, Eyvind Kang & Shelley Hirsch at 9:00
Eyvind Kang, Jim Black & DJ Olive at 10:30

Thursday, January 21 ($10 advance / $12 @ door)
John Zorn's Masada - 9:00 & 10:30 shows

Thursday, January 21 ($4)
Midnight
Sex Mob with Steve Bernstein

Friday, January 22 ($10 advance / $12 @ door)
John Zorn's Masada - 9:00 & 10:30 shows

Friday, January 22 ($4)
Slowpoke (Dave Tronzo, Kenny Wollesen, Michael Blake, Tony Scherr)

Saturday, January 23 ($10 advance / $12 @ door)
John Zorn's Masada - 9:00 & 10:30 shows

Saturday, January 23 ($4)
Midnight
David Garland

Wednesday, January 27 ($10 double bill)
Pitchbrite (Christine Bard & Keiko Uenishi) at 9:00
Noto & Craig I-Sound at 10:30

Thursday, January 28 ($10)
Arto Lindsay

Thursday, January 28 ($4)
Midnight
Sex Mob with Steve Bernstein

Friday, January 29 ($10)
Arto Lindsay

Friday, January 29 ($4)
Midnight
Michael Blake Free Association

Saturday, January 30 ($10)
Arto Lindsay

Saturday, January 30 ($4)
Midnight
Matt Moran's Balkan Party




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Denman Maroney-Hyperpiano
Date: 28 Dec 1998 21:34:03 EST

I've gotten a handful of inquiries about this one since I included it in my
list, so I thought I'd post some additional info here.

Denman Maroney, for those not familiar with him, is a prepared pianist best
known for working with Mark Dresser on a bunch of different projects, as well
as for being 1/4 of the fab band Tambastics (Maroney, Dresser, Gerry Hemingway
and Robert Dick). he's very under-recorded; more info can be found on his web
page at www.pipeline.com/~denman.

Hyperpiano consists of three 20-plus minute solo compositions, Flux Time,
Artemisia, and On The Contrary. what I find so exciting about this record is
that unlike the other prepared pianists I've heard, Maroney spends almost the
entire record inside the piano. I quote from his web site: "When the piano is
played the way it is built to be played, the keys are depressed, indirectly
causing the hammers to strike the strings. When I play, I also stop, slide,
bow, pluck, strum and strike the strings directly with a variety of tools
including bars, bowls, knives, bells and mashers of metal, boxes and bottles
of plastic, mallets of various kinds, and blocks of rubber." all these
techniques are very effective and musical, and they leave you amazed that
you're listening to a solo piano record.

unfortunately, Denman has no distribution for these as of yet, although he's
working on it. but I talked to him today, and if you're interested (in the US
only, unfortunately), send him a self-addressed CD mailer with postage on it
and a check for $10 and he'll send you a copy.

Denman Maroney
246 Route 306
Monsey, NY 10952

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gsliepen <[e-mail]>
Subject: parachute years
Date: 29 Dec 1998 12:29:22 +0100

Hye Zornies,

I wonder if I should invest in the box-set "The Parachute
Years"(Lacrosse,Hockey,
Pool,Archery).Does anyone own this material and is it worth purchasing?


Olivier

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Coltrane and Varese
Date: 29 Dec 1998 14:36:29 +0100

In an interview published by french monthly Jazz Magazine (january issue),
painter Pierre Alechinsky declared that, when he attended the Coltrane gigs
in Village Vanguard in 1961, he regularly saw Edgar Varese who was there.

Jacques Oger



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: parachute years
Date: 29 Dec 1998 08:23:34 -0800


On Tue, 29 Dec 98 12:29:22 +0100  gsliepen wrote:
>
> Hye Zornies,
>
> I wonder if I should invest in the box-set "The Parachute
> Years"(Lacrosse,Hockey,
> Pool,Archery).Does anyone own this material and is it worth purchasing?

Yes, you should. And I see four reasons for that:

    - fantastic document
    - totally original approach to improv
    - great and inspired playing
    - gorgeous parkaging

This set is a fantastic document of what (more or less) became the NY downtown
scene. This was recorded when all of them were basically kids, barely able to
even get their friends to show up at their gigs. And still, there is an
awesome quality in the delivery.

The music is really demanding. It is free-improv based (hey! Derek Bailey was
a huge influence on Chadbourne and Zorn in the '70s), but Zorn has already
added his "structures" to channel the energy and ideas of the players. If
you are mainly a fan of late Zorn (specially Masada), you might find the music
on the set unbearable. But if you like YANKEES or THE CLASSIC GUIDE TO STRATEGY,
you should enjoy them.

Last, but not least, the design is really gorgeous. I remember buying the
original vinyls in the early '80s. How could you doubt, looking at the design
(even more amazing after reading how poor John was when he produced them), and
listening at the music, that this kid was going somewhere and knew perfectly
what he was doing (to the point of frightening Fred Frith)?

You might not listen to it on a daily basis, but if you have the money, get
it, it won't be wasted.

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new otomo & sachiko m release
Date: 29 Dec 1998 18:22:06 -0500

Yesterday I got a copy of the new Otomo Yoshihide & Sachiko M release on
Extreme, Filament 1.  Since both of these artists were in Ground Zero, I
was expecting something at least remotely similar, but this is much more in
the headphonautical area generally associated with Ryoji Ikeda and the
Rastermusic roster.  11 tracks, most of which are around five minutes long,
most dealing almost obsessively with one particular flavor of earbath
(except for the first track, which sounds like a turntable stuck at the end
of the record, i.e., almost silent).  I think I'll end up liking it, but it
was most definitely a surprise, so I'm passing on a word of warning for
others who might think they're getting the next GZ.


--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
-- Pablo Picasso

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  new otomo & sachiko m release
Date: 29 Dec 1998 18:51:29 EST


In a message dated 12/29/98 6:22:32 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Yesterday I got a copy of the new Otomo Yoshihide & Sachiko M release on
Extreme, Filament 1.  Since both of these artists were in Ground Zero, I
was expecting something at least remotely similar, but this is much more in
the headphonautical area generally associated with Ryoji Ikeda and the
Rastermusic roster.  11 tracks, most of which are around five minutes long,
most dealing almost obsessively with one particular flavor of earbath
(except for the first track, which sounds like a turntable stuck at the end
of the record, i.e., almost silent).  I think I'll end up liking it, but it
was most definitely a surprise, so I'm passing on a word of warning for
others who might think they're getting the next GZ.>>

I completely agree with Caleb on this, except for the fact that I don't think
I'll end up liking it. Otomo is one of my favorite handful of musicians in the
world, but this is a really uninteresting direction for him, and not his
strength at all. this record is like work to listen to, not because it's
harsh, but because it's  relentless in its pursuit of tones. Caleb's
comparison to Ikeda is a good one in terms of general style, but as far as
skill in this niche, the two aren't even close. Ikeda's music (especially +/-
and the recent double 3 inch CD on Staalplaat, Time/Space) has much more of a
sense of composition, movement and variety. I'd agree more with the
Rastermusic reference, but Filament is more abrasive than the Raster stuff
I've heard (a label I don't care much for, actually).

Otomo released another record this year in a similar style, ISO-Gravity Clock,
on his own label, Amoebic, that's in a similar style but better executed. but
I hope he goes back to turntable cutups soon, or tries something entirely new.
there's plenty of people making this kind of music, and a lot of them are
better at it than Otomo. check out Pomassl's Trail Error disc if you're
interested and are able to find one, the current high point of the Viennese
attempts in this direction to my ears. and if you have any interest in this
style of music, Ikeda's +/- (Touch) is the blueprint for the genre, one of the
most important records of the decade.

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: CORRECTION-Denman Maroney-Hyperpiano
Date: 29 Dec 1998 19:06:19 EST

to anyone planning to or interested in purchasing this CD which I posted about
yesterday, I'm taking over distribution of it in the US. I've told a few
people on this list already that I'm in the process of starting an independent
record label (Erstwhile Records), and while that gets underway, I'm going to
help Denman out by selling his disc for him. clearly there's a conflict of
interest, but in my defense, I wouldn't have taken this on if I didn't think
the CD was pretty special, and I'm certainly not going to get rich from doing
this.

North Country should be getting copies in the next few weeks also, and I'm
going to try to get other distributors, especially for the rest of the world.
but for now, the quickest (and probably cheapest) way to get one (again, only
in the US for now, although I welcome tips on overseas distribution) is to
send me either a self-addressed CD mailer with postage on it and a check for
$10 and I'll send you one. any questions, e-mail me here or at
[e-mail]. thanks! and on the off chance, anyone already sent Denman a
check, he'll send you a copy too, don't worry.

Jon Abbey
189 Christopher Columbus Dr.
Apt. #4
Jersey City, NJ 07302

Jon

original post follows below:


I've gotten a handful of inquiries about this one since I included it in my
list, so I thought I'd post some additional info here.

Denman Maroney, for those not familiar with him, is a prepared pianist best
known for working with Mark Dresser on a bunch of different projects, as well
as for being 1/4 of the fab band Tambastics (Maroney, Dresser, Gerry Hemingway
and Robert Dick). he's very under-recorded; more info can be found on his web
page at www.pipeline.com/~denman.

Hyperpiano consists of three 20-plus minute solo compositions, Flux Time,
Artemisia, and On The Contrary. what I find so exciting about this record is
that unlike the other prepared pianists I've heard, Maroney spends almost the
entire record inside the piano. I quote from his web site: "When the piano is
played the way it is built to be played, the keys are depressed, indirectly
causing the hammers to strike the strings. When I play, I also stop, slide,
bow, pluck, strum and strike the strings directly with a variety of tools
including bars, bowls, knives, bells and mashers of metal, boxes and bottles
of plastic, mallets of various kinds, and blocks of rubber." all these
techniques are very effective and musical, and they leave you amazed that
you're listening to a solo piano record.

unfortunately, Denman has no distribution for these as of yet, although he's
working on it. but I talked to him today, and if you're interested (in the US
only, unfortunately), send him a self-addressed CD mailer with postage on it
and a check for $10 and he'll send you a copy.

Denman Maroney
246 Route 306
Monsey, NY 10952

Jon

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn article
Date: 29 Dec 1998 23:54:13 -0500

I'll wager that people here already know about this but just in case....

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/jazz/dzorn.htm

J

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: parachute years
Date: 30 Dec 1998 09:41:35 +0100

> The music is really demanding. It is free-improv based
> (hey! Derek Bailey was
> a huge influence on Chadbourne and Zorn in the '70s), but
> Zorn has already
> added his "structures" to channel the energy and ideas of
> the players.

I have this album and I still didn't found the "key" to this music.
What are the "structures"? I was reading carefully (as far as my
english is sufficient) all mails about the "game pieces" which Zorn
invented/created, and I still don't get it (yes, you can call me
stupid). I don't listen to demanding music for the first time of my
life, but when it comes to Parachute/improv/game-stuff I'm helpless.

So far improv seems to me to be live-show music only. I saw Fred
Frith's show in Bydgoszcz (try to pronounce it!) about month ago, I'm
his fan for years and I knew that sometimes he performs with a guitar
only. Frith looks then like a child having fun with the instrument,
making strange sounds, using all objects located on the stage. But
this is only the "fake" show, the real stuff is pure music, which is
great. I enjoyed the show a lot, although many people were
dissapointed. I was able to hear "structures" in this improvised
music: the rythm (complicated, dense, changing), harmony (atonal),
dynamics, dramatugry of the piece. The point: live show is convincing,
live show has it's own life, and this is probably the best part about
improv. Maybe my sense of "structure" is too traditional, but
Parachute Years seems to me to be structureless and I can't hear the
live play between musicians.

Please give me some hints. Which piece, where is the note, which makes
the whole thing make sense? I really mean it, tell me the minute of
the CD!

My approach may seem to be strange, but I think you have to learn to
listen to demanding music. Unless you are genius.

Regards


__________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak [[e-mail]]
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/default.htm - Discography of Bill
Frisell



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: parachute years
Date: 30 Dec 1998 09:09:11 -0800


On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:41:35 +0100  "Artur Nowak" wrote:
>
> > The music is really demanding. It is free-improv based
> > (hey! Derek Bailey was
> > a huge influence on Chadbourne and Zorn in the '70s), but
> > Zorn has already
> > added his "structures" to channel the energy and ideas of
> > the players.
>
> I have this album and I still didn't found the "key" to this music.
> What are the "structures"? I was reading carefully (as far as my
> english is sufficient) all mails about the "game pieces" which Zorn
> invented/created, and I still don't get it (yes, you can call me
> stupid). I don't listen to demanding music for the first time of my
> life, but when it comes to Parachute/improv/game-stuff I'm helpless.

Game pieces introduce structure by removing the number of degrees of
freedom (that characterize a pure free-improv situation, at least in
theory). I realize that this is a kind of negative way of looking at it,
in the sense that I describe it by reduction instead of construction :-).

For example, the prompter introduces constraints on time, combination
of performers, mood, genre, speed, volume.

Now game pieces vary in complexity in the definition of the rules
selected for the above constraints. These rules are there to limit
the dictatorship of the prompter who, without rules, could end up
making the performance look like exactly a free-improv performance
(which of course is not the objective).

The rules define the piece (why COBRA is not XU FENG, etc), and the
mood of the prompter combined with the talent of the performers define
the colour of the performance (and its success).

Now, to answer your concern, can a listener (who has never attended a
performance of the piece) figure out what is going on and "reverse-
engineer" the rules in order to get the structure flat? Not me, for
sure.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: parachute years
Date: 30 Dec 1998 15:35:18 EST

Zorn has said he is more interested in "the way things work", than with the
final outcome.  Which seems obvious to me, in a piece like Cobra.   Ive seen
it performed a couple of times, and it was fun, but to listen to a recording
of it doesn't do much for me.  Its really difficult-- the chemistry has to be
*just right*, and with 12 musicians, thats not an easy thing to accomplish.  I
do enjoy the smaller game pieces (and The Parachute Years).

-Jody

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nancarrow
Date: 30 Dec 1998 18:28:49 -0600

None of Nancarrow's player piano rolls were ever mass-produced.

>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:43:12 +1100
>From: Jim Glaspole <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Nancarrow
>
>Hi there
>My parents-in-law have a player piano.  Has any of Nancarrow's scrolls
>ever been manufactured?  If so are they available anywhere?
>Probably stupid questions but thought I'd ask.
>Regards
>Jim Glaspole


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



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From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: parachute years
Date: 31 Dec 1998 16:24:39 -0800



Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
>
> Now, to answer your concern, can a listener (who has never attended a
> performance of the piece) figure out what is going on and "reverse-
> engineer" the rules in order to get the structure flat? Not me, for
> sure.
>
>         Patrice.

> i agree this would be a extremely difficult feat wihtout having actually
> composed or played in one.  but i would bet the farm that you patrice, if
> anyone, could "reverse engineer" a Cobra game/piece after many repeat
> attendences to Cobra performances.i dont think it is enough to just listen
> a few times.  it takes effort.

patrick in portland


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