ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.9702

Internet Message Format | 1997-02-27 | 187KB

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn & Chadbourne (was FAQ 1.1)
Date: 01 Feb 1997 00:34:57 -0500 (EST)



On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> In a recent Wire, I saw an ad for a Chadbourne record on Leo, Boogie with
> the Hook, that features Zorn as a sideman.  Is this a recent recording?  (Is
> it any good?)  If it's recent, is the above FAQ candidate question still valid?

This is a collection of Chadbourne duets with various cool people from
1977 to 1996.  The Zorn duet is from 1980, so it's old.  The record as a
whole is fine, but nothing spectacular.  The Zorn duet is 17:16, for those
who are wondering how much Zorn you'd be getting for your money.  The
highlight is either the version of John Lee Hooker's "Whiskey and Women"
with Han Bennink on pizza box, or the duet with the late, very
underrecorded cool saxophonist Charles Tyler.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



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From: Torsten Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Keiji Haino
Date: 01 Feb 1997 09:21:05 +0100 (MET)

On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> terrifying, cataclysmic free-rock guitar improvisations. If you can
> imagine a heavy rock Derek Bailey then you are just about in the same
> galaxy as Haino. He is prone to 45 minute improvisations involving

Derek and Haino recorded a duo cd, which will be released in a few month.
Has anybody heard it?
I believe some of it was broadcasted on the radio in London two or three
weeks ago.

Jonas

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From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: a fistfull of yen...
Date: 01 Feb 1997 14:32:56 +0200 (GMT+0200)

On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, DR S WILKIE wrote:

> okay,no-one has to buy them,but why are Diw charging full price for
> 20'of music(masada 4),and is the naked city 'black box'going to be 1
> or 2 cds?-don't we already have 'torture garden' on grand guignol ?

...and on 'Naked City', right? Wasn't it (TG, I mean...) split into the
CDs of NC and GG?

BTW, what is this Black Box you're talking about... I haven't read the
Zorn ML very carefully lately, so sorry if this has been mentioned
somewhere...

 teemu


OnNow: Giant Robot live-tape (not mr.B-Head, just a band I'm mixing...)

-------------
e-mail: [e-mail]                              "Follow that rat!"
Ruumen: http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html          - Fox Mulder -


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From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: zorn faq
Date: 01 Feb 1997 11:52:03 -0800

I've been out of town for a while, & I'm just starting to think about the
FAQs.  The response below to the game piece question may be more complex
than necessary, but I wrote it on the plane back and had way too much time
to think & rewrite stuff. (I checked spellings and added to the list of
game pieces & earlier composers when I got home.)  Hope it's not too dry or
detailed.

Loved the suitably flip answer to my sarcastic "is Zorn as old as my dad?"

Anyway,

What's a "game piece"?:

In the late 1970s an early 1980s, Zorn was often quoted as saying "My
concern is not so much with how things sound, as with how things work."
The game pieces were his most concerted early efforts at creating musical
structures that didn't dictate "how things sound."

While most of the game pieces are named after a sport or game (Pool,
Hockey, Archery, Lacrosse, Cobra, Tennis, Golf, Curling, Cricket, Jai Alai,
Go, Sebastopol are among those recorded or other wise referred to), the
term "game pieces" refers as much to the structures of the works.  Just as
people playing games or sports must follow certain rules which determine
how they interact, but not exactly what they do (in baseball, for instance,
the infield fly rule says what to do when one occurs, but there is no rule
governing when a player must hit an infield fly), in his game pieces, Zorn
creates structures and situations for improvisors to perform in, while
providing little, if any, actual notated music.

In early game pieces, like Pool & Archery, the structures may be as simple
as providing an order for the possible solos, duos, trios, and quartets
available for a particular size ensemble and then providing specific ways
in which participating musicians can interrupt this order. In several of
these early game pieces, Zorn provides very brief notated material, to be
used by players when or if certain options occur. In later game pieces,
like Cobra (the most recorded and performed of Zorn's game pieces), the
rules are more open (there is, for example, no attempt at having all
possible combinations of players perform together, and there is no notated
material) and the ways in which performers can interupt the proceedings are
more elaborate.

In all of the game pieces a prompter, who does not play an instrument
during the piece, keeps track of where players are within the structure,
making sure that everyone knows what's going on. The prompter acts as a
referee or conductor, making choices when more than one player desires to
interupt the proceedings and otherwise shaping the music as it progresses.

While these pieces, in part, grow out of the modern tradition of aleatoric
and/or intuitive music created by avant garde composers like John Cage,
Earl Brown, Christian Wolff, Pauline Oliveros, Jerry Hunt, Mauricio Kagel,
and Karlheinz Stockhausen, Zorn's game pieces differ primarily in the
nature of the structured interactions and performer choices allowed, and in
Zorn's use of musicians who are (often) more comfortable with improvising
in several styles of music.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn book blurb
Date: 01 Feb 1997 21:41:31 -0500 (EST)

"Jalal Toufic is one of the best writers working in America today.  *This is
the shit.*" -- John Zorn  (original italicized between astericks), from back
cover of Toufic's Over-Sensitivity (Sun & Moon).

For what it's worth, i read the first 50 or so pages and it's phenomenally
bad, some kind of attempt at film criticism through intense self-awareness as
best i can figure.  Not much to actually do with movies (at least what i
read) and Toufic's prose is quite dull, but it has a kind of
post-structuralist feel that must be what attracted Zorn.

Lang Thompson
http://members.aol.com/wlt4/index.htm

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From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jean-Paul Bourelli
Date: 01 Feb 1997 20:15:52 -0700

A friend of mine recently made a tape for me (don't tell ASCAP) that has a
funk guitarist named Jean-Paul Bourelli on it.  Anyone know anything about
this guy?


Greg Mills
Copywriter

ADVERTISING:

The bastard offspring of Art and Commerce kill their parents and go watch
roller derby.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Jean-Paul Bourelli
Date: 02 Feb 1997 13:43:46 -0600



On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Greg Mills <[e-mail]> wrote:
>A friend of mine recently made a tape for me (don't tell ASCAP) that has a
>funk guitarist named Jean-Paul Bourelli on it.  Anyone know anything about
>this guy?
>
>
>Greg Mills
>Copywriter
>
>ADVERTISING:
>
>The bastard offspring of Art and Commerce kill their parents and go watch
>roller derby.
>
>
>
>I made the mistake of buying his new "live" cd...poorly recorded, mediocre
material and even the "rap" segments stink (IMO).. His older stuff is good. He
definitely sounds somewhat like Hendrix.

glenn

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From: [e-mail] (Joshua N Schuster)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 02 Feb 1997 16:31:32 -0500 (EST)


[e-mail] wrote:
>
> "Jalal Toufic is one of the best writers working in America today.  *This is
> the shit.*" -- John Zorn  (original italicized between astericks), from back
> cover of Toufic's Over-Sensitivity (Sun & Moon).
>
> For what it's worth, i read the first 50 or so pages and it's phenomenally
> bad, some kind of attempt at film criticism through intense self-awareness as
> best i can figure.  Not much to actually do with movies (at least what i
> read) and Toufic's prose is quite dull, but it has a kind of
> post-structuralist feel that must be what attracted Zorn.

Gee, you've given this book a lot of thought.  I really doubt Toufic
pulled one over Zorn with that "post-structuralist feel" and convinced
Zorn that "phenomenally bad" writing has some deeper resonance in its
dullness (thus implying that post-structuralism is truly what is bad).  I
don't care to defend such post-structuralist ideology, or Zorn's cultural
capital of taste.  But, if you care to actually read the book, you might
find that, using the logic of film, Toufic thinks and writes through some
rather serious situations, both personal and international.  There is a
lot of film buff reflexiveness (too much for my pace, but maybe not
others), but the book is not about movies.  There is a lot of anger at
"quite dull" American blindness which, with racist smiles, sees
foreigners as "over-sensitive" ("they have too much luggage," or "their
food smells," writes Slavoj Zizek).  Toufic may be one of the only
writers left from Lebanon to actually want to say anything about the
decimation of one's own land and tradition.  There is a rapid urgency of
reviving the need for memory in "the inaccessibility of tradition by
traditional, 'legitimate' means."  Hmm, do you think there is any fucking
accident why Zorn likes Toufic's writing? I bet it is not for its
"post-structuralist feel".  If you need more help try listening to
"Hobah" on Masada's *Hei*.  It saddens me to hear how many cannot get
past Zorn's "violence" or Toufic's "dullness" (as if lives and nations
which are too violent and dull are just not worth the bother).

I do not know Zorn or Toufic but I hear they are good friends.
Apparently, they have worked together on some video projects.  At one
time Zorn asked Toufic to travel with him to parts of the middle east (I
don't know any more, or if they went).  Toufic lives in the SF Bay Area
and teaches around there.  One of the reasons his prose is so different,
and intense, is that he learned English perhaps not more than 10 years
ago.

Read Toufic again and you may find some serious resonances with Zorn's
work, perhaps even the best current literary moment which collaborates
with much of what Zorn is up to with music.

--Joshua Schuster

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From: [e-mail] (James Hale)
Subject: Re: Jean-Paul Bourelli
Date: 02 Feb 1997 18:30:29 -0500

>A friend of mine recently made a tape for me (don't tell ASCAP) that has a
>funk guitarist named Jean-Paul Bourelli on it.  Anyone know anything about
>this guy?

Jean-Paul Bourelly was one of the original members of Brooklyn's M-BASE
movement, and I believe he was also involved in the Black Rock Coalition.
He's recorded a number of things with Cassandra Wilson, as well as some
stuff with his own Blue Wave Bandits.

James Hale



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 02 Feb 1997 19:22:38 -0800

Lang Thompson wrote:

>"Jalal Toufic is one of the best writers working in America today.  *This is
>the shit.*" -- John Zorn  (original italicized between astericks), from back
>cover of Toufic's Over-Sensitivity (Sun & Moon).
>
>For what it's worth, i read the first 50 or so pages and it's phenomenally
>bad ...

Phenomenologically pretty interesting, though, if that matters to anyone here.

Toufic's writing about, among other things, being an outsider in a mass
culture that doesn't admit there's anything beyond the mainstream.  Which
sure seems to fit in with my (limited) understanding of Zorn's take on
Jewish culture, separate from the Jewish religion.  Re-read the Gershom
Scholem quote on the back of your Masada jewel boxes, and consider the
range of work in the Radical Jewish Culture series.  Zorn's overall project
as a musician, composer, and producer isn't just about making cool/weird
noises.

For whatever reason (I don't know if the connections I find between the
works are the same as Zorn's), Zorn is supportive of Toufic's work.  You
didn't like it.  Are you going to sue Zorn for calling it "the shit," when
you thought it was just plain shit?

But this posting raises the more basic question of how to take Zorn's
critical statements (both positive and negative).  The guy IS human, after
all & the chance of you  liking everything he likes is relatively low.  (Is
there anyone out there who likes EVERYTHING in, say, the Tzadik Composers
Series, which have received far more than just a positive blurb from Zorn?)


And then there's the oft-cited Post Modern Culture article describing
Zorn's active hostility to the work of John Cage.  Obviously the negative
quotes from Zorn on Cage & his work are real, but Zorn dedicated one of the
sections of Aporias, the piece for piano & orchestra recently discussed
here, to Cage's memory.  What do we make of the apparent dissonance here?

Anywya, for what it's worth, another writer doing some similar stuff to
Toufic (autobiographical "post-modernist" theoretical writing), in what may
be a more "interesting" (or at least more accessible) way, is Steven
Shaviro, whose book Doom Patrols just came out in paperback from Serpents
Tail.  The full text is also available online at:

<http://dhalgren.english.washington.edu/~steve/doom.html>

As always, your mileage may vary.

Bests

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 02 Feb 1997 19:48:56 -0800

At 07:22 PM 2/2/97 -0800, Herb Levy wrote:

>But this posting raises the more basic question of how to take Zorn's
>critical statements (both positive and negative).  The guy IS human, after
>all & the chance of you  liking everything he likes is relatively low.

And this raises the question of why we iconify people whose work we respect,
making whatever they do important.  To be perfectly blunt about it, I could
care less what Zorn's critical statements are, I buy his music because I
like the music.  I don't think there is any reason I should like/agree
with/care about what he says about literature, film, etc., any more than I
do any other "critic."  The critical statements I care about are those of
people who I have found over time to have common interests/likes, and most
of these understandings come through long conversations and/or relationships.





Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4
Date: 03 Feb 1997 12:11:46 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, DR S WILKIE wrote:

> well, it looks like masada 4 is avaialable in feb. harmonia mundi's
> ad in 'the wire'mention masada 1-7(they are the uk dist.) [ don't know
> about the US arrangements...] -now you can all rush out and pay full
> price for three tracks;( does this mean altering the FAQ?!)
> harmonia mundi (uk) are at [e-mail]


I'm assuming that Masada 4 will be a DIW thing?  Are they really going to
charge full album price for this?  Yikes...

Next, JZ and co. will release thier stuff song by song, on an even more
obcsure japanese label which has to be shipped via Tiera Del Fuego with a
stop-over in Sydney, costing $80.00 a shot.....  :)


-jascha



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From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 12:26:30 -0500 (EST)

> >But this posting raises the more basic question of how to take Zorn's
> >critical statements (both positive and negative).  The guy IS human, after
> >all & the chance of you  liking everything he likes is relatively low.
>
> And this raises the question of why we iconify people whose work we respect,
> making whatever they do important.  To be perfectly blunt about it, I could
> care less what Zorn's critical statements are, I buy his music because I
> like the music.  I don't think there is any reason I should like/agree
> with/care about what he says about literature, film, etc., any more than I
> do any other "critic."  The critical statements I care about are those of
> people who I have found over time to have common interests/likes, and most
> of these understandings come through long conversations and/or relationships.

Bingo! :)

-jascha


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From: [e-mail] (david m rothbaum)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 10:08:50 -0700

>At 07:22 PM 2/2/97 -0800, Herb Levy wrote:
>
>>But this posting raises the more basic question of how to take Zorn's
>>critical statements (both positive and negative).  The guy IS human, after
>>all & the chance of you  liking everything he likes is relatively low.
>
>And this raises the question of why we iconify people whose work we respect,
>making whatever they do important.  To be perfectly blunt about it, I could
>care less what Zorn's critical statements are, I buy his music because I
>like the music.  I don't think there is any reason I should like/agree
>with/care about what he says about literature, film, etc., any more than I
>do any other "critic."  The critical statements I care about are those of
>people who I have found over time to have common interests/likes, and most
>of these understandings come through long conversations and/or relationships.


i agree with this as well but i think its also important to point out that
since music or any art for that matter isnt created in a vaccum.  to be
inspired to compose or play write etc you are inspired by something in
particular certianly at first.  and this is strickly dictated by owns one
taste.  even in the most original works there is, however vague, a
reference point to something somewhere.  and by this way of thinking i
happen to think mr. zorn has exceptional "taste".  in his music there are
direct refrences or combinations of musical/artistic/philosophical
infulences. i dont think i have to point out the specific references in his
work.  another point too,  you could say that his taste dictates who a
givin composer/musician works with and again this is a testament to his
good taste.  i would never agree that one should iconify anyone but i would
if i could love to spend a week going through mr zorns record collection.


david rothbaum



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From: [e-mail] (Dan Given)
Subject: re: masada 4
Date: 03 Feb 1997 13:30:02 -0500 (EST)


>> well, it looks like masada 4 is avaialable in feb. harmonia mundi's
>> ad in 'the wire'mention masada 1-7(they are the uk dist.) [ don't know
>>about the US arrangements...] -now you can all rush out and pay full
>> price for three tracks;( does this mean altering the FAQ?!)
>> harmonia mundi (uk) are at [e-mail]


>I'm assuming that Masada 4 will be a DIW thing?  Are they really going to
>charge full album price for this?  Yikes...

>Next, JZ and co. will release thier stuff song by song, on an even more
>obcsure japanese label which has to be shipped via Tiera Del Fuego with a
>stop-over in Sydney, costing $80.00 a shot.....  :)

I really don't think that DIW has any intention of selling any copies of 4.
As Patrice said, the ad should probably have been taken to imply 1-3, 5-7.

I picked up #7 this weekend, and on the end paper it lists the releases,
(not sure what it says about them, as I don't read Japanese) but 4 is not on
the list. This kind of implies to me that it will not be available.

And hey, if they did want to sellit at full price, their seems to be enough
interest among those in this group who weren't fortunate enough to get in on
the deal that they could easily get away with it.  (Hell, I've been offered
more for mine than any of the others cost me)

Dan



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From: "Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hobah/Leng T'che
Date: 03 Feb 1997 12:41:43 -0500 (EST)


Someone mentioned the song 'hobah' of the 5th masada album a while ago,
and this reminded me of something i was thinking about earlier.  A while
ago the thought struck me that one could compose a song that consisted
entirely of different endings.  It could be a mixed genre piece, with
cliche classical cadences alongside blues endings and what-have-you, or
you could do a piece which stayed basically in one kind of musical
framework.

With this still lingering in my mind, i was listening to Masada 5 again
one day and 'hobah' came on.  The very first sounds were drum rolls,
rumbly bass noodling and ultra-confident triumphantly candential horns,
sounding as though they had just come back to a nice tonic-centered
resolution after a very long song.  Then they kept going...and going....
the whole thing sounded like that joyfull chaos you hear when a band
closes up a song with as much noise as they can make.

"Hm...." i thought, "perhaps mr. Zorn was thinking this idea before me..."

And then i listened to 'Leng T'che'.  Egad!  The same kind of idea,
except instead of a jazz-band ending, it's big nasty heavy-metal
cathartis, doom-laden arena-filling stuff.

"Hm...." i thought, for the second time...

Of course, i have no way of knowing what his intentions really were when
he did these pieces, but i thought i'd share.....any comments, anyone?  Am
i alone in this idea?

-jascha

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From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 11:08:44 -0800 (PST)


On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Jeff Spirer wrote:

>
> And this raises the question of why we iconify people whose work we respect,
> making whatever they do important.  To be perfectly blunt about it, I could
> care less what Zorn's critical statements are, I buy his music because I
> like the music.  I don't think there is any reason I should like/agree
> with/care about what he says about literature, film, etc., any more than I
> do any other "critic."

I think there's this aspect to the human psyche where we choose to
construct people whose work we like into heroes.  Add to that the seeming
use of supporting someone's work as a lifestyle choice (Deadheads being
the ultimate example in music, but think of the times when you have felt
"insulted" because someone doesn't like the music that you do).  One way
or the other, the sense that the artist you have engaged as either "hero"
or "badge of honor" should rank as somehow larger than life.  And if a
larger than life figure that's important to you expresses an opnion, than
of course you'll value it more than the opinion of some shlub you meet in
a bar....

Sorry to devolve into crit-think.

Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.

Bob

[e-mail]



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From: Torsten Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Eyvind Kang album?
Date: 03 Feb 1997 20:40:00 +0100 (MET)

Has Eyvind Kang made a cd called "Sweetness Of Sickness"? Has anybody
heard it?

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Eyvind Kang album?
Date: 03 Feb 1997 11:47:43 -0800


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:40:00 +0100 (MET)  Torsten Nielsen wrote:
>
> Has Eyvind Kang made a cd called "Sweetness Of Sickness"? Has anybody
> heard it?

Yes. It was released recently on Rabid God Inoculator. As usual, pretty
design. Not listened to it yet.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 17:56:04 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, david m rothbaum wrote:

> i would never agree that one should iconify anyone but i would
> if i could love to spend a week going through mr zorns record collection.

As would I, but that would be at least as much because I think it would
give me insight into Zorn's music, as because I think his taste is likely
to be wonderful.  Similarly, I'd be interested in reading the book under
discussion (or any other book that Zorn pushed) because it's likely to
provide insight into his work, whatever its own merits or flaws.  (Someone
whose very wonderful post I've already deleted said some very plausible
things about this already.)
     Not that I'm all that likely to find the time
to do any of this.  But I think it would be pretty cool if someone were
sufficiently devoted to Zorn's work to really try to understand it in
terms of all Zorn's influences.  A bit pathetic.  But cool.

Off to sort through Zorn's garbage,

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: a new release
Date: 03 Feb 1997 20:14:34 -0500 (EST)

has anyone heard of a cd by Zorn called "Intergalactic Maiden Ballet/Squar"?
an internet store called cd banzaii is selling it?  is it a new release,
a bootleg, or what?

the label/cateloge # they give is as follows:  TPT:888804

i apologize if this issue has been addressed already; i am new to the list

-a.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: BCMA (Feb. shows): NYC comes to Beantown, +...
Date: 03 Feb 1997 20:40:42 -0500 (EST)

Hello, all

Just wanted to update you on some exciting upcoming shows in Boston (and one
in NYC).  It's a shameless plug, but relevant no less.  I am excited to
continue my involvement with the Boston Creative Music Alliance (BCMA) and am
also excited about developments with my independant promotional ventures
(Unsound Productions.)  I'll begin with the BCMA info:

The Boston Creative Music Alliance will present two shows next week at the
Institute for Contemporary Art (955 Boylston Street, Boston, MA 02115)
featuring some fine NYC performers.  (Some of you may remember that the BCMA
hosted Zorn's "Masada", Henry Threadgill's "Make A Move Quartet", Boston's
own "Excelsior", Alva Rodgers, and Jason Hwang's "Far East Side Band" at the
ICA back in November.  Special thanks goes out to Twisted Village record
store on 12 Eliot Street, Cambridge, Ma 02138 (phone #[phone], fax
354-6899) for there past and continued support, and for doing advanced ticket
sales for this event.  Twisted Village buys, sells, and trades the finest in
obscure musics, so check em out!

We are proud to present (am I being shameless enough yet?):

Matthew Shipp/William Parker Duo  on Thursday, February 6th
     "Matthew Shipp is one of the brightest lights on the alternative-jazz
scene..."
      Gene Santoro, The New York Daily News

      This duo, featuring Shipp on piano and Parker on bass, is guarenteed to
start the
      BCMA's two event February series off with a bang.  Shipp has played
with such
      musician's as Roscoe Mitchell, David S. Ware in addition to his
projects like this
      duo.  Parker has played with, well...where do I start?  The two have
been
      collaborating since 1984, and we are pleased to bring them to Boston.


Myra Melford's "The Same River, Twice"
     "...her improvising bursts with enthusiasm, prompting heated, fast and
flexible
      responses from her band."  The New York Times

     "...Killer shit, man!"  My friend Dan the Janitor

      The Same River, Twice features Melford on piano, Dave Douglas on
trumpet, Eric
      Friedlander on cello, Chris Speed on reeds, and Michael Sarin on drums.
 The
      group have an album out by the same name on Gramavision, which has
recieved
      more accolades than I could possibly mention (not the least of which
comes
      from my friend Dan!)  Melford studied with Boston pianist and Third
Stream
      innovator Ran Blake and has worked with such artists as Butch Morris,
Leroy
      Jenkins and Joseph Jarman.  Douglas, of course, works with John Zorn's
      Masada, as well as other projects, including leading his own various
ensembles.
      I might add that his recent appearance in Beantown on Jan. 28th and
29th
      (featuring Douglas, Friedlander, Sarin and violinist extrodinaire Mark
Feldman)
      was nothing short of amazing.  What a treat to have this much great
music
      coming up from the big apple!

SO, in terms of Unsound Productions:  Last July, Unsound kicked off with a
show at The Middle East featuring Elliott Sharp/Zeena Parkins
"PsychoAcoustic", Debris, Prelapse (see below) and my band "Saturnalia"
(dito). I'm currently working towards securing some Boston gigs for the likes
of: NYC's "Dim Sum Clip Job" (they have an amazing album out on Avante), "The
Swarm" (also from NYC, featuring Mark Stanley, and also astounding), Boston's
own "Prelapse" (these guys actually pull off completely authentic Naked City
material, as well as some incredible originals), Virginia's "Boud Deun" (with
a new album out on Cunneiform entitled Astrology Made Easy and one previous
self release) and my own group "Saturnalia", (a free improv unit that has a
show with "Dog", "Mile Wide", "Bratface" and "Mourn" on Tuesday, Feb. 25th at
the Middle East - Upstairs -  Cambridge, MA #[phone], and will
feature, among others, special guest Mason Wendal from Prelapse on bass.
 Saturnalia has also recently recorded an album-no label yet- featuring guess
who? on violin, guitar, bass and vocals, Roger Miller from "Mission of Burma"
on guitar, Robin Amos from "Cul de Sac"  on analog synth and theramin, Vic
Rawlings from "Mile Wide" on serangi, Michael Knoblach from "Cul de Sac" and
"Twitcher" on drums and percussion, as well as a slew of other great
players.)  Please feel free to contact me for info on Unsound events, or
these particular artists.

And the last (I promise) shameless plug:  I'm filling in on bass for "Cul de
Sac's" upcoming tour (starting out at NYC's The Cooler on Wednesday, Feb.
26th and going south to Philly, Pittsburgh,  DC area?, Chapel Hill, Atlanta
and Athens, Memphis, Lawrence, KS, Chicago, Oberlain, OH, Ann Arbour and
Detroit, MI, and probably some others...these may change slightly so stay
tuned), so COME SEE US!  "Cul de Sac" has been dubbed "post rock" (slightly
overused now, perhaps?) by critics, (who have raved about the bands recent
Thirsty Ear/Flying Nun UK release China Gate) and is in the vein of Tortoise,
La Bradferd, and Bowery Electric, they say.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FAQ addition
Date: 03 Feb 1997 21:08:22 -0500 (EST)

I think the attached discussion of Haino's work is worthy of inclusion in
the FAQ, as I wondered about the same thing myself after purchasing the
Avant Fushitsusha release and finding it, well, not quite what I expected.
The web sites, while excellent for finding out what is and has been
available, don't usually have information on where to start with an artist.
And the more emotional an artist is, the less likely that s/he will carry it
off on every recording (Charles Gayle is another example of this).  Thanks
for the tips on Haino releases.

>>
>> Okay, I may be opening up a big can of worms here but here goes: can
>> someone give me the scoop on Keiji Haino?? Since he's got a release on
>> both Avant and Tzadik, I figure this is a legit question. Let me say that
>> all I've heard are the Tzadik release (I was disappointed) and a PSF disc
>> with Barre Phillips and some percussionist (which I found mediocre). The
>> reason I'm so curious is that the press I've encountered tends to
>> describe him as an all-out skronker, a sonic terrorist, etc. Any hints,
>> suggestions, descriptions?
>
>you are correct about the Haino Avant album. It is untypical of his
>output and yes,he is a first rate skronker! He has been around for
>over 20 years apparently, recording with a variety of bands and solo.
>I havent heard a great deal of his work but he does play truely
>terrifying, cataclysmic free-rock guitar improvisations. If you can
>imagine a heavy rock Derek Bailey then you are just about in the same
>galaxy as Haino. He is prone to 45 minute improvisations involving
>massive feedback and metallic noise, also shrieking and shouting when
>he gets really emotional. His band Fushitsusha have released a variety
>of albums but I can heartily reccomend The Caution Appears. This has a
>selection of 'approachable' shortish tracks which are heavy on the
>devastating, white noise rock-out! There are a few Haino/Fushitsusha
>web pages about, you can find them through Lycos and The Wire magazine
>has been covering this kind of mayhem for the last 18 months in a fair
>amount of detail.
>

--
Caleb T. Deupree
[e-mail]
;; For every complex question there is a simple answer.
;; And it is wrong.  (H. L. Mencken)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: weak Charles Gayle?
Date: 03 Feb 1997 22:01:50 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Caleb Deupree wrote:

> And the more emotional an artist is, the less likely that s/he will carry it
> off on every recording (Charles Gayle is another example of this).

Y'know, I've been pretty stunned by the consistency of Gayle's work.  For
someone working in a style which is often perceived as limited and/or
dated, he gets a hell of a lot of mileage out of it.  Maybe I've just been
lucky in my purchases, but the five records I have vary from really good
to excellent. I'd choose between them basically only on the basis of
accompaniment (or lack thereof) and Gayle's doubling on other instruments.
Which Gayles are the ones to avoid?

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 19:53:14 -0800

At 11:08 AM 2/3/97 -0800, Bob Boster wrote:

>or "badge of honor" should rank as somehow larger than life.  And if a
>larger than life figure that's important to you expresses an opnion, than
>of course you'll value it more than the opinion of some shlub you meet in
>a bar....

This is probably true, but if I compare the larger than life figure to my
sister, whose tastes are very close to mine, I probably prefer my sister.
And by valuing hers more than the shlub in the bar and John Zorn (or any
other larger than life figure), I will probably be a happier person.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for the idea that the shlub
in the bar may turn me onto something I had no idea existed.  And given that
I have the time to interrogate the shlub in the bar, which I probably cannot
do with the larger than life figure, I might end up ahead.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 03 Feb 1997 19:53:12 -0800

At 10:08 AM 2/3/97 -0700, david m rothbaum wrote:

>i agree with this as well but i think its also important to point out that
>since music or any art for that matter isnt created in a vaccum.  to be
>inspired to compose or play write etc you are inspired by something in
>particular certianly at first.  and this is strickly dictated by owns one
>taste.  even in the most original works there is, however vague, a
>reference point to something somewhere.

This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

Some of this is accomplished by the ability to tap into the imagination and
allow people to create their own reference points and their own contexts.
As an example, I have been listening to North African music for the last ten
years and find it to be something of a spiritual experience.  In my mind, I
have an image of North Africa that was constructed by the music, and not
vice versa.  In all likelihood, I will find North Africa to be quite
different, and possibly inferior, to my fairly complex mental image when I
visit next year.  But that will probably not impact how I feel about the
music in the long term as I will continue to construct new ways of
responding to the music.

>and by this way of thinking i
>happen to think mr. zorn has exceptional "taste".  in his music there are
>direct refrences or combinations of musical/artistic/philosophical
>infulences. i dont think i have to point out the specific references in his
>work.  another point too,  you could say that his taste dictates who a
>givin composer/musician works with and again this is a testament to his
>good taste.  i would never agree that one should iconify anyone but i would
>if i could love to spend a week going through mr zorns record collection.

I don't really agree with most of this.  First of all, "exceptional taste"
is relative to what one likes.  I can introduce you to plenty of people who
think Kenny G has "exceptional taste."  What you might want to say is that
you think that John Zorn has similar taste to yours.  The next issue is
references in music and what that means about the musician.  I don' know
John Zorn, but some of the musicians whose music I deeply respect have taste
radically different than mine regardless of what influences show in their
music.  I am reminded of a  musician who I particularly liked whose record
collection was almost entirely country music.  What *he created* was
radically different, and showed radically different influences, from what he
was interested in when not creating.

For the same reason, I disagree with the statement that taste dictates who
someone works with.  A lot of people who are on or would have been on this
list were extremely surprised when Henry Threadgill chose to have David
Sanborn play with him.  And the interesting thing about it was that
Threadgill was able to find something inside of Sanborn that none of us who
commented on it (myself included) had ever been able to see in Sanborn.  And
it is important to note that Threadgill probably made a better album by
choosing someone that resonated with what he was trying to do rather than
someone that would fit any pattern.

OK, end of diatribe.


Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kang's CD/Horvitz show
Date: 03 Feb 1997 20:19:25 -0800

Eyvind Kang's "Sweetness of Sickness". I've heard it. One person said to me
that this release has given many people reason to believe that Kang was
borne of the the belly of the beast. This became much clearer to me after
listening. Kang makes the mostly sweetly disturbing sounds on the violin
I've ever heard. Ever since I first saw him with Zorn a few years ago in a
cobra here in Seattle, I've sung his praises. I looked forward to his full
length release, to help me articulate to others what a great player he is.
But the playing I know him for is scarce on this release. Instead, layers
of wrenching electric noises, short bursts of mania, and "I can't believe
that's a violin" sounds dominate. There will be much written about this
release, I assure you.

I saw Kang play this last Saturday at the OK Hotel here in Seattle, as a
player in Wayne Horvitz's latest "four-and-one ensemble".  Here is the
lineup:
Wayne Horvitz: piano, electronics
Eyvind Kang: violin
Julian Priester: trombone
Reggie Watts: keyboards
Tucker Martine: electronics & processing

With my musical articulation ending somewhere around "the show was great, I
was floored", I hope one of my more musical Seattle brothers will review
this show with more insight. Hello?

Todd

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore
for a very long time."
Andre Gide
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Kick Media
Todd & Camarie Bramy            http://www.oz.net/~tbramy
Seattle, Wa                               [e-mail]
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (keefe j murren)
Subject: Henry Hills/JZ
Date: 03 Feb 1997 23:27:31 -0500

Hey guys,
    I've got two questions.

1 Can anyone provide some information on Hills? When did he start? what
else has he done?

2 On Saturday night, Hills introduced his first film as "the MTV video" I
didn't know exactly what he ment. On the next two he told who the patron
was (JZ and himself respectively--Osaka Bondage and Igneous Ejaculation).
What's the scoop?

OK i have a third. Has Zorn commissioned any other films besides Osaka Bondage?

Keefe



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: New Eyvind Kang album?
Date: 03 Feb 1997 20:26:22 -0800

>Has Eyvind Kang made a cd called "Sweetness Of Sickness"?

yes

>Has anybody heard it?

yes

It's primarily solo (though often overdubbed);

more consistently noise improv oriented than the Tzadik disc'

looks very good, though the alternative (non-jewel box) packaging is a
little too small for getting the disc out very easily;


It's on Rabid God Incubator; their address is P O Box 20664, Seattle, WA  98145



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Newgarden <[e-mail]>
Subject: masada 4
Date: 04 Feb 1997 04:22:14 -0500 (EST)


I heard that Masada 4 was coming out as a 100-record 78 rpm set with a few
seconds on each side.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David FENECH)
Subject: Re: Henry Hills
Date: 04 Feb 1997 10:34:02 +0100

  > OK i have a third. Has Zorn commissioned any other films besides Osaka Bondage?
  >

I don't know. But there is a new french band who plays improvised
things with elcetronics (it sounds a little bit like VOICE CRACK)
and their name is OSAKA BONDAGE. I saw them live last year and it
was quite good impro (not AMM , but some excellent parts).

They have issued a tape, and will soon release a LP on a french label
called NUMERO ZERO AUDIO. I can give you more details if you want.

david FENECH - One man band


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hobah/Leng T'che
Date: 04 Feb 1997 10:09:51 +0000

> A while ago the thought struck me that one could compose a song that consisted entirely of different endings.

Jascha

Isn't this what Neil Young did with Arc-Weld? I haven't heard it,
unfortunately, but the extra disc which came with the initial release
of the Weld live album apparently contained a 25 minute collage of
feedback endings from live performances. This sounds very like your
idea.

Scott Russell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: FAQ addition
Date: 04 Feb 1997 12:49:37 +0000

Caleb Deupree wrote:
>
> I think the attached discussion of Haino's work is worthy of inclusion in
> the FAQ, as I wondered about the same thing myself ...

How about an archive of short reviews? I don't know how we would
maintain this but I, for one, would find it quite valuable to read
opinions about hard to get albums.

Further to this, is anyone interested in swapping live tapes or am I
offending people?

Scott Russell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Eyvind Kang album?
Date: 04 Feb 1997 08:26:20 -0800


On Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:26:22 -0800  Herb Levy wrote:
>
> >Has Eyvind Kang made a cd called "Sweetness Of Sickness"?
>
> yes
>
> >Has anybody heard it?
>
> yes
>
> It's primarily solo (though often overdubbed);
>
> more consistently noise improv oriented than the Tzadik disc'
>
> looks very good, though the alternative (non-jewel box) packaging is a
> little too small for getting the disc out very easily;
>
>
> It's on Rabid God Incubator; their address is P O Box 20664, Seattle, WA  98145
            ^^^^^^^^^

Inoculator :-).

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4
Date: 04 Feb 1997 08:30:09 -0800


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 04:22:14 -0500 (EST)  David Newgarden wrote:
>
>
> I heard that Masada 4 was coming out as a 100-record 78 rpm set with a few
> seconds on each side.

Only 100?

I would have prefered the Mystic Fugu Orchestra on 78RPM :-).

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Torsten Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Derek and The Ruins
Date: 04 Feb 1997 18:16:38 +0100 (MET)

Derek Bailey and The Ruins will be playing in London April 3. Where can I
get tickets? Where will they be playing?

ANY help would be appreciated!

Jonas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: N Vassiliou <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Derek and The Ruins
Date: 04 Feb 1997 23:27:17 GMT


> Derek Bailey and The Ruins will be playing in London April 3. Where can I
> get tickets? Where will they be playing?
>
> ANY help would be appreciated!
>
> Jonas

Is this true?Where did you hear it?

Nick V.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Archery
Date: 04 Feb 1997 17:09:10 -0700

Does anyone here know if Archery has been released yet on CD? If so, how
can I get a copy? I have the old LP version and think that it is one of
Zorn's best works. I'd sure like to hear it on CD.
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Archery
Date: 04 Feb 1997 16:19:53 -0800


On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:09:10 -0700  Larry Solomon wrote:
>
> Does anyone here know if Archery has been released yet on CD? If so, how
> can I get a copy? I have the old LP version and think that it is one of
> Zorn's best works. I'd sure like to hear it on CD.

Not yet.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Henry Hills/JZ
Date: 04 Feb 1997 19:49:21 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, keefe j murren wrote:

> 1 Can anyone provide some information on Hills? When did he start? what
> else has he done?

I didn't take notes when I saw Hills presenting some of his work a couple
of years ago in Pittsburgh, but as I recall the earliest work dated back
to the late 70's and was done in California.  The early stuff included a
cutup of a guy speaking and some wonderfully meditative (my reaction)
speed collages of fairly static landscapes and cityscapes.  Later works
included a promotional cutup for Elektra reminiscent of John Oswald's
stuff, and a recent piece on Bali, which frankly struck me as
condescending, like something put together by a tourist board for rich
Western tourists.  But it may have been intended ironically.  The high
point was a speed collage from ca. 1985 of various Manhattan scenes
including seconds-long footage of a number of improvisers including Arto
Lindsay, Derek Bailey, and David Moss playing sheet metal at a crowd of
bemused onlookers.  Aside from the celebrity factor, this piece was
fascinating and headspinning.  Sorry I don't remember titles.

> 2 On Saturday night, Hills introduced his first film as "the MTV video" I
> didn't know exactly what he ment. On the next two he told who the patron
> was (JZ and himself respectively--Osaka Bondage and Igneous Ejaculation).
> What's the scoop?

Again trusting to my spotty recollection, the MTV video was "Gotham".  It
was made for MTV play, and shown on that blessed channel only once.
"Osaka Bondage" was commissioned by Zorn, presumably for his private
amusement and the kinds of gallery-type showings you and I saw.  Hills did
"Igneous Ejaculation" on his own initiative as a gift for Zorn.  There's
another film not presented as a video, but using as a soundtrack Zorn's
Weill arrangement from _Lost in the Stars_.  It's sort of a colorful,
subdued dance piece.

Note: My memory is very bad at times, and I wouldn't bet on the accuracy
of any of the above.  Anyone who knows better should jump in and soundly
slap me down.

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Horvitz show, Julian Priester
Date: 04 Feb 1997 19:53:09 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Todd Bramy wrote:

> I saw Kang play this last Saturday at the OK Hotel here in Seattle, as a
> player in Wayne Horvitz's latest "four-and-one ensemble".  Here is the
> lineup:
> Wayne Horvitz: piano, electronics
> Eyvind Kang: violin
> Julian Priester: trombone
> Reggie Watts: keyboards
> Tucker Martine: electronics & processing

Seeing Julian Priester's name in this lineup is a very pleasant surprise.
Is he living in Seattle now?  Is this an ongoing band?  Will this lineup
be recording?  Inquiring minds want to know...

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 04 Feb 1997 20:09:49 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Jeff Spirer wrote:

> This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
> concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
> art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
> context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
> together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

I sort of agree with Jeff here, but I thought I'd say a word or two in
defense of those darned intellectual elitists.  Art can be understood in
many different ways.  One way you might want to understand a piece of art
is in terms of its context (or one of its contexts: personal,
art-historical, social, whatever).  In that case, obviously context is
useful.  But there are plenty of other ways to understand art that
don't require any knowledge of context.  Art critics often like to talk
about context, I'd guess, because it's much easier to say something
about that than to really get inside the work.  One of the things
distinctive about great (I won't put it in quotes) art is that the process
of understanding it just goes on forever.  It's bigger than anything we
can say about it, and so we can talk about it forever, or just sit there
and bask in its power.

End of defense. 8^)

Chris Hamilton
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Horvitz show, Julian Priester
Date: 04 Feb 1997 17:17:58 -0800


On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:53:09 -0500 (EST)  Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Todd Bramy wrote:
>
> > I saw Kang play this last Saturday at the OK Hotel here in Seattle, as a
> > player in Wayne Horvitz's latest "four-and-one ensemble".  Here is the
> > lineup:
> > Wayne Horvitz: piano, electronics
> > Eyvind Kang: violin
> > Julian Priester: trombone
> > Reggie Watts: keyboards
> > Tucker Martine: electronics & processing
>
> Seeing Julian Priester's name in this lineup is a very pleasant surprise.

In fact Julian has been playing with Horvitz for a while (I saw him the
New York Composers Orchestra a couple years ago).

> Is he living in Seattle now?  Is this an ongoing band?  Will this lineup
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes.

> be recording?  Inquiring minds want to know...

Yep. This is all I know for the moment:


*** - ???: Wayne Horvitz

  Wayne Horvitz: piano; Julian Priester: trombone; Eyvind Kang: violin; Tucker
  Martin: live processing; Reggie Watts: keyboards.

    1997 - Intuition (Germany), ??? (CD)


In fact, after a very quiet 1996 year, many records with Horvitz are announced
in the near future:


*** - ZONY MASH: Wayne Horvitz

  Wayne Horvitz: Hammond B3 organ; Tim Young: guitar; Fred Chalenor: bass;
  Andy Roth: drums.

    1997 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFW 201 (CD)

  Note: not released yet.


*** - NOTORIOUS: Bill Frisell

    Recorded in Nashville

    1997 - Nonesuch (USA), ??? (CD)

  Note: not released yet.


If all the tracks of the Zony Mash are like the one on NEW YORK DOWNTOWN (new
compilation from Knitting Factory Works), I am looking for it with hardly
contended impatience!!!!

There are few others, but still uncertain about the release date.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:Archery
Date: 04 Feb 1997 20:36:51 -0500 (EST)

isn't archery planned for rerelease in tzadik's upcoming parachute years
3CD set?

-a.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: skopelitis
Date: 04 Feb 1997 17:52:43 -0800 (PST)

Hello.  This actually doesn't relate to zorn.  Bill laswell does a lot of
work with nicky skopelitis, and produced an album of his called "next to
nothing" in 1989 on virgin records.  I was wondering if anyone had a copy
that they'd be willing to record.  Even better if anyone knows where I
could find it (I'm just assuming it's out of print).  Thanks
Josh Martin
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: skopelitis
Date: 04 Feb 1997 20:04:37 -0800

At 05:52 PM 2/4/97 -0800, [e-mail] wrote:
>Hello.  This actually doesn't relate to zorn.  Bill laswell does a lot of
>work with nicky skopelitis, and produced an album of his called "next to
>nothing" in 1989 on virgin records.  I was wondering if anyone had a copy
>that they'd be willing to record.  Even better if anyone knows where I
>could find it (I'm just assuming it's out of print).  Thanks

Downtown Music Gallery in NYC carries this CD in its re-release on Caroline.
I think it is out of print again, but it was in print just a few years ago,
and the last time I was there, they told me that they could get copies.
There was also vinyl available on this and that occasionally surfaces used.

They can be reached at [e-mail] or by calling 212 directory assistance.


Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Horvitz show, Julian Priester
Date: 05 Feb 1997 00:39:10 -0800

>> I saw Kang play this last Saturday at the OK Hotel here in Seattle, as a
>> player in Wayne Horvitz's latest "four-and-one ensemble".  Here is the
>> lineup:
>> Wayne Horvitz: piano, electronics
>> Eyvind Kang: violin
>> Julian Priester: trombone
>> Reggie Watts: keyboards
>> Tucker Martine: electronics & processing
>
>Seeing Julian Priester's name in this lineup is a very pleasant surprise.
>Is he living in Seattle now?  Is this an ongoing band?  Will this lineup
>be recording?  Inquiring minds want to know...

As far as I know, Priester has been in residence here (in Seattle) at
Cornish College of the Arts for several years. I'm not sure how long, or if
he still is, but I can easily find out tomorrow (or maybe someone else
could fill in the blanks).

By the way, anyone have any idea how OLD that guy is? He looked younger
than some of the 25 year olds in that band.



`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose
sight of the shore for a very long time."
Andre Gide
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Kick Media
Todd & Camarie Bramy            http://www.oz.net/~tbramy
Seattle, Wa                               [e-mail]
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Live Tapes
Date: 05 Feb 1997 09:52:52 +0000

Thanks to everyone who responded to my tape swap suggestion. It seems
that there is interest but not a great deal of material. I must
confess that I am in the same category. Living, as I do, in the West
of Scotland my chances of seeing the artists I'm interested in are
slim to the point of non existence. I do have a fair amount of Zappa
live stuff if that's of any interest, though I feel this may be a bit
mainstream for you guys.

Scott Russell

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       masada 4 - confirmed
Date: 05 Feb 1997 10:35:18 GMT0BST

I know you still won't believe it until it's in your cd draw, but i
rang harmonia mundi (who dist. DIW in the UK) and they said that
masada 4 is to be released at the end of Feb. I also heard from depth
charge records in the uk (who advertise masada 4 as being available
in the Feb. issue of 'the wire') and they confirmed that they'll have
copies to sell. I don't have any info. for releases in other
countries. Those non-believers who sent comments about 100 78 rpms
etc. should be ashamed of your lack of faith!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada 4 - confirmed
Date: 05 Feb 1997 08:50:25 -0800


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:35:18 GMT0BST  DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> I know you still won't believe it until it's in your cd draw, but i
> rang harmonia mundi (who dist. DIW in the UK) and they said that
> masada 4 is to be released at the end of Feb. I also heard from depth
> charge records in the uk (who advertise masada 4 as being available
> in the Feb. issue of 'the wire') and they confirmed that they'll have
> copies to sell. I don't have any info. for releases in other
> countries. Those non-believers who sent comments about 100 78 rpms
> etc. should be ashamed of your lack of faith!
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, David has not pitty for the rest of us :-).

    Patrice (still skeptic, even more after David's e-mail).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)



On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:

> > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
> > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Which Cage comments?

The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.

Bob


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn pans Cage, was Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 14:13:46 -0700

There may be more than one source for this, but the one that I'm
familiar with is an essay that everyone can read on the Web. It is in
the online journal *Postmodern Culture* at the following URL:

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/mcneilly.195.html

In this essay, the author Kevin McNeilly, compares Zorn with Cage, and
he says that Zorn dismissed Cage as a "boring old fart", and that his
music is "dead, lifeless, music".

These statements, are, of course, rhetorical, and Zorn is quoted no
further to explain why he thinks of Cage's music this way, or why he
thinks Cage, as a person, was "a boring old fart". It would be
interesting to know if Zorn ever gave any further explanation of these
blunt and callous remarks.
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (david m rothbaum)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 13:27:36 -0700


>This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
>concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
>art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
>context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
>together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

the point i was making is that without a historical perspective of some
sort you are basically saying the said composer is inventing music in and
of itself.  to say you cant hear ornette and the very old klezmer tradition
in masada is silly.  im not however saying that it doesnt transend its
influences. the only time i have been able to see masada i would describe
as an almost spiritual experience, my heart palpitated,  but i also
disticntly heard misheberekh and  ahava raba....  i dont think aknowleging
an influence in someones music is criminal but id also like to say that if
i hadnt heard ornette's infulence or reqognized any klezmer scales i would
have had the same experience.



david



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 13:31:24 -0800

>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:
>
>> > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
>> > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
>> >
>> > Bob
>>
>> Which Cage comments?
>
>The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.
>
>Bob

I no longer have the Option article I was thinking of , but at

<http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/mcneilly.195.html>

you'll find it cited and quoted.  It's Josef Woodward's "Zornography" in
Option, July/August 1987.

Here's an excerpt from the  McNeilly article (called Ugly Beauty: John Zorn
and the Politics of Postmodern Music):

> Such music, which Attali approves of as the harbinger of a new age of
>composition and of >listener-involvement in autonomous musical production,
>freed form the aesthetic and social restraints of the >recording industry,
>Zorn calls the "dead, lifeless music" of "boring old farts," of whom, for
>him, Cage is a >leading example.

McNeilly's article is an excellent example of the problem of taking Zorn's
frequent aesthetic pronouncements (whether positive or negative) at face
value.

The entire paper is built around a few polemical quotes that don't seem to
reflect fully the dynamic of Zorn's considered ideas about composers who,
on the one hand Zorn was willing to dismiss in an interview as "boring old
farts," but on the other hand, has memorialized in a major work for piano
and orchestra.



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 14:03:42 -0800


On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)  Bob Boster wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:
>
> > > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
> > > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Which Cage comments?
>
> The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.

I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.

For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
you have to take everything he did as pure genius.

At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
many of his worshippers).

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Great or not so great
Date: 05 Feb 1997 15:18:39 -0700 (MST)

>On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Jeff Spirer wrote:

>> This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
>> concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
>> art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
>> context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
>> together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

>I sort of agree with Jeff here, but I thought I'd say a word or two in
>defense of those darned intellectual elitists.  Art can be understood in
>many different ways.  One way you might want to understand a piece of art
>is in terms of its context (or one of its contexts: personal,
>art-historical, social, whatever).  In that case, obviously context is
>useful.  But there are plenty of other ways to understand art that
>don't require any knowledge of context.  Art critics often like to talk
>about context, I'd guess, because it's much easier to say something
>about that than to really get inside the work.  One of the things
>distinctive about great (I won't put it in quotes) art is that the process
>of understanding it just goes on forever.  It's bigger than anything we
>can say about it, and so we can talk about it forever, or just sit there
>and bask in its power.

>End of defense. 8^)

>Chris Hamilton
>[e-mail]


As an artist and I suppose a darned intellectual elitist, I could not
disagree more. I doubt I can change anyone's mind here, so I'll keep my
remarks short. It would be hard to take any course or read any book on
anthropology, and not come away with the conclusion that one's understanding
of art is controlled by one's culture, and will vary only insofar as true
cross-cultural study will allow.
        In fact I remember a prof telling us a beautiful story-myth from
some native american or eskimo group, and discussing how westerners
interpreted the meaning of the story, which sure made sense to all of us.
When she went on to explain how the members of this group think, view the
world and socialize -in short how they contextualize their environment- it
was clear that the significance of the story was vastly different than we
had thought. In fact, this goes to an old colonialist attitude that we can
understand and appreciate (or not, as the case may be) the cultural products
of others.
         It's interesting to note how little of what we consider to be the
"art" of other cultures is actually viewed as such by the members of those
cultures. "Art" tends not to even exist in many other cultures, simply the
by-products of a religious life. So the fact that you Jeff may find some
african music to be beautiful, is just a gloss on your own appreciation of
sound. I would seriously doubt that if you ever discussed the content with
the actual members of the people who create that sound, that there would be
much correlation.
        Furthermore, to say " In fact, art that is "great" transcends all
reference points, all
context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
together regardless of where they started and where they end up." in my
opinion is to vastly simplify human life. While it is true that as human
beings we do share in some universal experiences. But consider for a moment
how much art is considered great today, that wasn't considered great even a
few decades ago, because for example it was created by women. Is it the art
that changed or our context for appreciating it? And to say that art brings
people together seems naive in the context of the cultural wars currently be
waged in this country. Are the photos of Robert Mapplethorpe great art. I
believe it is. Is it going to bring me together with Jesse Helms? I doubt it.

yours in Zornocity, --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joshua N Schuster)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 05 Feb 1997 20:51:03 -0500 (EST)


Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
> used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.
>
> For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
> you have to take everything he did as pure genius.
>
> At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
> many of his worshippers).
>

If we are thinking of the same interview, I also recall something Zorn
said which is very provocative.  Zorn says something like he doesn't buy
the notion that one can just flip coins for twenty years and make
interesting music (a cop-out he implies).  Instead, Zorn says, he considers
the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
formalistically is a mistake.  I've heard people say, for example, that
"Forbidden Fruit" is so radical because it jumps all over the place, as
if the wild movement is all--but what about the title, the cartoons, the
voice, the folk bits, the speeds of fits and starts, etc.  Instead,
the process of selecting what music goes where is very thoughtful, especially
versus Cage's mysticism of negating the composer by invoking trascendental
anarchic operations.

I don't much like that PMC article by McNeilly for the reasons Herb Levy
suggests and also for the simply poor attention McNeilly gives to the
actual music (of both Cage and Zorn).

-js

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Toshi Makihara <[e-mail]>
Subject: PhiBa-improv: Philadelphia/Baltimore Improv List
Date: 05 Feb 1997 20:53:45 +0900

[ a n n o u n c e m e n t ]

 =====================================================
                    * PhiBa-improv *
 (Philadelphia-Baltimore Free Improvisation Mail-list)
 =====================================================

Thanks to Joe Germuska of Northwestern University, the
Philadelphia - Baltimore Improvised Music (PhiBa-improv)
Mailing List is now launched.

This list provides an online forum for discussing Free
Improvised Music and related subjects (such as New Jazz,
Experimental Music, Free Improvised Dance, etc.) in
Philadelphia and Baltimore. The list was created,
following the examples of Chicago and Boston Free
Improvisation Lists, in order to facilitate the Free
Improvised Music scene in Philadelphia and in Baltimore,
and to provide an open forum where various discussions,
concert reviews and announcements are exchanged. We also
hope this list to be informative and interesting to
out-of-town subscribers interested in Free Improvised
Music.

Presently two major concert series are produced in
Philadelphia. "Monday Night Performance (MNP)," a
biweekly concert series at Highwire Gallery in Olde
City, and a series produced at A-Space, an alternative
coffee house in friendly West Philadelphia. In
Baltimore, a regular concert series is produced at RED
ROOM (located at Normals Books and Records near Johns
Hopkins University) by John Berndt and his associates.
We hope this list to facilitate these concert series,
and vise versa.

 To subscribe to PhiBa-improv, send an email to

    [e-mail]

 with a message body of

    subscribe phiba-improv

or alternatively with a web browser (Netscape,
MS-Explorer), go to PhiBa-improv subscription page:

http://wnur.nwu.edu/cgi-bin/lwgate/PHIBA-IMPROV/subscrib
e.html

 The basic information regarding PhiBa Information page
is available at

    http://wnur.nwu.edu/lists/phiba-improv/

If you have any questions, please address to

    [e-mail]

Thank you for your support, and we are looking forward
to your participation.

 * Toshi Makihara
 * List Manager : PhiBa-Improv
 * [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Geert.Buelens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Coleman/Radical Jewish Culture
Date: 06 Feb 1997 11:34:34 +0100 (MET)

Anthony Coleman 'lectured' about Rad Jewish Culture, yesterday in Leuven
(belgium), and afterwards Claudia Heuermann's movie about the Lower
Eastside-scene 'Sabbath in Paradise' opened there. If some of you would
be interested ...


geert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 06 Feb 1997 07:39:11 -0800 (PST)




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
> used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.

While I'm not one of those Cage fans, couldn't the same charge be levelled
at many of us Zorn fans?

Indeed, having listened to a couple of hours of Cage interviews in the
last yearm I can confirm the man's sense of humour.  He was deep and often
prophetic, but always undercut by a playfullness and a sense of
self-deprecation.  His essays and mesostics don't really betray that as
well, but I think that flavor is in those texts too.

Bob


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Great or not so great
Date: 06 Feb 1997 07:51:40 -0800 (PST)




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, dennis summers wrote:

>          It's interesting to note how little of what we consider to be the
> "art" of other cultures is actually viewed as such by the members of those
> cultures. "Art" tends not to even exist in many other cultures, simply the
> by-products of a religious life.

I think this is a fascinating point.  In some ways the aspect of religious
expression within some cultures view maps out on some of the things WE
look for in musical experience, and especially in performance.  We want
devoted performers who push boundaries and take their expressions to
heights of personal expereince, while pushing our subjective reception as
well.  We want performers who appear to be hooked into something outside
of the normal experience of "mundane" music.  We want performers with a
vision.

Then you analyze our behavior (audience) from the same place...and the
parallels get even more interesting...

I'll leave the cultural context issue, since I entered this list with a
firefight about "artist's intention" that I barely survived....

Bob


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Toshi Makihara <[e-mail]>
Subject: "New Music Philadelphia / Baltimore"
Date: 06 Feb 1997 10:37:15 +0900

"New Music Philadelphia / Baltimore" page at

 http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos/nm_phiba.htm

contains a comprehensive list of upcoming concerts in
Philadelphia, Baltimore and the surrounding regions. It
is basically following the example of Seth Tisue's
"New music live (Chicago)" page.

The list is regularly updated and distributed weekly via
PhiBa-improv (Philadelphia/Baltimore Free Improv List).
For more information on PhiBa-improv please check
http://wnur.nwu.edu/lists/phiba-improv/

Thank you.

 T o s h i   D.   M a k i h a r a   percussionist
  [e-mail]
   http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tosmos

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 06 Feb 1997 08:08:14 -0800 (PST)




On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Joshua N Schuster wrote:

> If we are thinking of the same interview, I also recall something Zorn
> said which is very provocative.  Zorn says something like he doesn't buy
> the notion that one can just flip coins for twenty years and make
> interesting music (a cop-out he implies).  Instead, Zorn says, he considers
> the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
> Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
> formalistically is a mistake.  I've heard people say, for example, that
> "Forbidden Fruit" is so radical because it jumps all over the place, as
> if the wild movement is all--but what about the title, the cartoons, the
> voice, the folk bits, the speeds of fits and starts, etc.  Instead,
> the process of selecting what music goes where is very thoughtful, especially
> versus Cage's mysticism of negating the composer by invoking trascendental
> anarchic operations.

I think it's a big mistake to assume that the use of chance operations in
Cage's compositional process is the same thing as him "not" composing, or
just "flipping coins for 20 years."  First, the content of the material
selected by the chance operations was "composed" by Cage as it was set
into the grid of potential material.  Second, he assembled the material
back onto the page as it was selected - placement and linkage can only be
sequenced by chance, placement is beyond the ability of the system he
composed with.  Third, and most importantly, choosing to compose with
chance operations IS a compositional choice.  The extent to which this
choice leaves out some aspects of traditional issues of construction is
debatable, but the fact that it is a choice, at least as much as the
decision in a Zorn piece to use game rules to compose with, can't really
be debated.

Cage's implications about removing the composer from the process has been
oversimplified by generations of music students and thinkers and I'm
surprised to hear the Zorn fell (even if briefly) into that trap.  When he
goes on about try to remove something from the process, it is not the
composer in total, but the emotional state and "ego" of the composer.
There is a big difference.  The tracings of these ideas in his thinking
from various sources (including Zen) are too extensive to get into here.
Allowing the role of the composer's "mind" to shift into a place where the
compositions "mind" can have a life of its own is much of the point....

I don't read Cage's comments as mysticism.

Bob


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "R. Lynn Rardin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Intergalactic Maiden Ballet (was: a new release)
Date: 06 Feb 1997 11:56:38 -0500 (EST)

>has anyone heard of a cd by Zorn called "Intergalactic Maiden Ballet/Squar"?
>an internet store called cd banzaii is selling it?  is it a new release,
>a bootleg, or what?

It's a legit release on the Enja-associated Tiptoe label, but it's not a
Zorn-led date.  In other words, Zorn is a guest of 4 of the 8 tracks.  It
was recorded in 1989 and released in 1990, so it's not a new release.

For full details, check out Patrice's Zorn discgraphy at:

http://www.acns.nwu.edu:80/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html

-Lynn ([e-mail])

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 06 Feb 1997 13:27:04 -0700

Bob Boster wrote:
>I think it's a big mistake to assume that the use of chance operations in
>Cage's compositional process is the same thing as him "not" composing, or
>just "flipping coins for 20 years."

I agree with Bob. I'm not sure where Zorn got the 20 year figure, but
the number should be more like 40 years, since Cage began using chance
for complete compositions in 1952. Cage also denied that "God wrote his
music, and not him", when someone so accused him. He said it was silly
that anyone should think that he (Cage) didn't write his own music.
Zorn's statements about Cage seem naive and polemical to me.

Concerning Zorn's music, Joshua Schuster wrote:
>Instead, Zorn says, he considers
>the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
>Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
>formalistically is a mistake.

What could be more collage-like than Zorn's music? There is a high
degree of fragmentation and juxtaposition of styles and ideas. Whereas,
many of Cage's chance pieces are not collages: e.g., his many works for
piano, Mesostics, Freeman Etudes, Thoreau pieces, etc.

An aspect of Zorn's approach that interests me, and which relates to
Cage, is the degree to which Zorn's music is his own creation, and how
much is attributable to the performers. And where, exactly, does the
work reside? I am not questioning Zorn's authorship here, but I am
fascinated by the question of the identity and autonomy of his work. For
example, if we had several different performances of, let's say
"Archery", by completely different performing groups, could we still
identify the work as the same piece and as being by Zorn? If so, what
are the identifiers?
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: about E.O.E. on WordSound
Date: 06 Feb 1997 16:45:15 -0800


    Does anybody know about:


*** - EQUATIONS OF ETERNITY: E.O.E

  Bill Laswell; Mick Harris.

    ???? - WordSound Recordings (USA), ??? (CD)


It is new? Any comments?

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: about E.O.E. on WordSound
Date: 07 Feb 1997 04:14:21 -0500

>Does anybody know about:

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** - EQUATIONS OF ETERNITY: E.O.E
>
>  Bill Laswell; Mick Harris.
>
>    ???? - WordSound Recordings (USA), ??? (CD)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is basically an experimental post-dub album featuring Laswell, Harris
& Eraldo Bernocchi (Sigillum S, Somma 1, Simm) that was released in late
1996. Instead of transcribing what has already been written, I will direct
you to either the Mick Harris discography section of the Dub Terrorist
pages at hyperreal

[www.hyperreal.com/music/artists/dub_terrorist]

or Jeff's (who will probably also answer this) Laswell/Axiom site

[www.hyperreal.com/music/labels/axiom].

You should be able to find a track listing and other info at
either of these sites.


-Patrick




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #61
Date: 07 Feb 1997 01:22:18 -0800

For those that asked:

Julian Priester indeed is a Seattle resident and, according to my sources,
is on the faculty of Cornish College of the Arts and has been for at least
the past fifteen years. I'm also told this 40ish looking man is pushing
seventy. Amazing.

Todd

***********
"Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before."
Mae West
***********
Todd Bramy
[e-mail]
Seattle, WA
***********



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       spare radio
Date: 07 Feb 1997 10:27:48 GMT0BST

I've a spare cd of naked city's 'radio':if anyone has Berne/Frisell
'theoretically' and wants to exchange,please get it touch.
(why does 'bar kokhba' have an '8' on the spine?...)
                                                        Hywel Davies

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: spare radio
Date: 07 Feb 1997 05:58:03 -0800

>(why does 'bar kokhba' have an '8' on the spine?...)

It's the eighth release in the Radical Jewish Culture series.




Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #61
Date: 07 Feb 1997 05:58:01 -0800

Todd Bramy wrote:

>Julian Priester
<snip>
>I'm also told this 40ish looking man is pushing
>seventy.

If Priester's pushing 70, he isn't pushing all THAT hard yet, he's 62-63.


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 07 Feb 1997 06:05:59 -0800

Patrice Roussel wrote:

>
>I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
>used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.

I wonder if Zorn is bothered by Zorn fans who act this way?

>
>For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
>you have to take everything he did as pure genius.

Ditto for Zorn.

>
>At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
>many of his worshippers).

Ditto for Zorn.


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: slawlor <[e-mail]>
Subject: radical jewish culture?
Date: 07 Feb 1997 09:32:08 -0500 (EST)

Hi.  What's this radical jewish culture reference mean?  Does it mean
that the themes of the music are either jewish in nature or have many
influences from that culture or what?  Thanks for the info.


scott K. Lawlor
http://w3.gwis.com/~slawlor


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture?
Date: 07 Feb 1997 07:29:48 -0800

>Hi.  What's this radical jewish culture reference mean?  Does it mean
>that the themes of the music are either jewish in nature or have many
>influences from that culture or what?  Thanks for the info.

Zorn's Tzadik label releases discs in several series: Radical Jewish
Culture, Composer Series, New Japan, and  a few others.  (For details, see
the Tzadik Web page (that I obviously didn't check) at the label's
distributor's site <http://kochint.com/tzadik.html> )

The RJC discs draw on Jewish cultural motifs on some level: reconfigured
Klezmer or Sephardic music; odd music theater works like Shelley Hirsch's O
Little Town of East New York, Richard Teitelbaum's Golem, Zeena Parkins
Mouth=Maul=Betrayer (not exactly a theater piece); several Anthony Coleman
things, etc.

These projects are rarely based on the Jewish religion, more often on other
things in Jewish traditions.  The Gershom Scholem quote on the back of all
of the Masada CDs (I assume most folks on the list have at one of those
discs so I won't take the time to type it out here) is very relevant to
this aspect of Zorn's activities.

Bests

H


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 07 Feb 1997 09:04:54 -0800


On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:05:59 -0800  Herb Levy wrote:
>
> Patrice Roussel wrote:
>
> >
> >I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
> >used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.
>
> I wonder if Zorn is bothered by Zorn fans who act this way?

I hope he his!

> >
> >For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
> >you have to take everything he did as pure genius.
>
> Ditto for Zorn.

Hard to disagree :-).

>
> >
> >At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
> >many of his worshippers).
>
> Ditto for Zorn.

There is still a slight difference: Cage is the darling of academia. Zorn
is still not accepted in this temple.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 07 Feb 1997 09:52:30 -0800

At 09:04 AM 2/7/97 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>> >At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
>> >many of his worshippers).
>>
>> Ditto for Zorn.
>
>There is still a slight difference: Cage is the darling of academia. Zorn
>is still not accepted in this temple.

This is much more true now than when Cage was Zorn's age.  I saw Cage
perform years ago in a university setting and most of the audience walked
out during the final, and most noisy, piece.

Jeff Spirer
http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Axiom Records/Material Communications


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Tony Reif)
Subject: keith drudge email address
Date: 07 Feb 1997 14:23:04 +0000

Sorry to bother the list, but if Keith or anyone can reply with his correct
address I will email info about Songlines. My message replying to his
bounced with the usual "explanation" host unknown. Thanks.

Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 07 Feb 1997 18:07:44 -0800


On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 13:27:04 -0700  Larry Solomon wrote:
>
> Bob Boster wrote:
> >I think it's a big mistake to assume that the use of chance operations in
> >Cage's compositional process is the same thing as him "not" composing, or
> >just "flipping coins for 20 years."
>
> I agree with Bob. I'm not sure where Zorn got the 20 year figure, but
> the number should be more like 40 years, since Cage began using chance
> for complete compositions in 1952. Cage also denied that "God wrote his
> music, and not him", when someone so accused him. He said it was silly
> that anyone should think that he (Cage) didn't write his own music.
> Zorn's statements about Cage seem naive and polemical to me.

Zorn's image (flipping coin) is not more naive that Einstein's one (God
does not play dice). In clear: it is a simple way to convey a basic
problem. In Zorn's case (about Cage): the fact that critical decisions in
the process of composing are the result of some random processes.

In one interview Zorn makes it clear that when he composes, every note on
the score is the result of his will and effort.

Because of Cage's actual strong image (to use Zorn's outrageous language:
"everybody is giving him blowjobs"), I find refreshing that somebody challenges
what seems to be mainly unquestioned. And specially somebody who knows what
he is talking about (he is a big amateur of contemporary music).

> Concerning Zorn's music, Joshua Schuster wrote:
> >Instead, Zorn says, he considers
> >the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
> >Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
> >formalistically is a mistake.
>
> What could be more collage-like than Zorn's music? There is a high
> degree of fragmentation and juxtaposition of styles and ideas. Whereas,
> many of Cage's chance pieces are not collages: e.g., his many works for
> piano, Mesostics, Freeman Etudes, Thoreau pieces, etc.
>
> An aspect of Zorn's approach that interests me, and which relates to
> Cage, is the degree to which Zorn's music is his own creation, and how
> much is attributable to the performers. And where, exactly, does the
> work reside? I am not questioning Zorn's authorship here, but I am
> fascinated by the question of the identity and autonomy of his work. For
> example, if we had several different performances of, let's say
> "Archery", by completely different performing groups, could we still
> identify the work as the same piece and as being by Zorn? If so, what
> are the identifiers?

I agree that it is a very interesting question. The "open form" of Zorn
and Cage's compositions put so much responsability on the performer that
you might wonder if the notion of composer/interpret should not be
revised. You mention ARCHERY, but I think it is even more visible with
COBRA (which is also closer to us).

Ironically, if you ask to a young jazz amateur who wrote MY FAVORITE
THINGS, they will say John Coltrane :-). Maybe one day COBRA will
completely escape Zorn and its composer will be its interpret.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Telephone Co. Petition for Internet surcharges
Date: 08 Feb 1997 17:04:14 -0700

The following is a forwarded message:

I am writing you this to inform you of a very important matter
currently under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has
filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your
internet service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the
operation of the telephone network.

It is my belief that internet usage will be seriously curtailed if users
are required to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created
an email box for your comments, responses must be received by February
13, 1997. Send your comments to [e-mail] and tell them what you
think.

Every phone company is in on this one, and they are trying to sneak
it in just under the wire for litiagation. Please pass the word. The
E-mail address to write to is:

[e-mail]

Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so all
our voices may be heard!
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re Zorn/Cage
Date: 09 Feb 1997 12:26:55 +0000

An aspect of Zorn's approach that interests me, and which relates to
> Cage, is the degree to which Zorn's music is his own creation, and how
> much is attributable to the performers. And where, exactly, does the
> work reside?

A very interesting point. We live in an age where traditional concepts
or art have been worn away so the blurring of the line between
composer and performer is perhaps one to be observed rather than
dissected. Zorn's music is as much about the people playing it as the
composition itself. He shares this with Duke Ellington and Frank Zappa
(both composers who wrote for specific individuals). I don't, however,
think that any of their works can be attributed to anyone but them.
Even if they don't perfom a piece they still generate the music and/or
organise the context for the performance to take place. This,
generally speaking, defines authorship.

Let me be clear, I wish to celebrate the crossover between player and
composer not separate them into warring camps. I think the whole
question of authorship is fraught with difficulties. There can be no
doubt the creator of a work should receive credit for it but how far
does that extend? Does it include the right to stop others performing
it (see Bernstein vs The Nice)? What about rights to quote or sample
other works (see Negativland, Oswald, Hip-hop and just about any other
popular music development today)? What rights do performers have in
work they are part of (see Henry Kaiser's assertions that Beefheart
didn't write all the magic band's music on his own)?

I offer no answers to these questions because I don't know if there
are any. Hard and fast rules rarely apply to art, there are always
exceptions and other points of view. It seems to me that Zorn
epitomises the truely modern musician; at home in a variety of fields,
encyclopaedic knowledge of his subject, capacity to innovate, ability
to integrate a variety of players into his compositions etc. Zorn and
his ilk (we can argue over who they might be!) could not have existed
in any other century, why chain them down with the outmoded concepts
of the past?

We could argue all day about where the authorship vs the performance
of 4.33 lies but, in the end, it's pointless. Cage thought of it so
it's his. It may be obvious, annoyingly so, but he did it! No-one
else.

But hey! What do I know?

Scott.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 09 Feb 1997 11:17:20 -0700

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>Zorn's image (flipping coin) is not more naive that Einstein's one (God
>does not play dice). In clear: it is a simple way to convey a basic
>problem. In Zorn's case (about Cage): the fact that critical decisions in
>the process of composing are the result of some random processes.

I'm not sure that I understand this, but I can't agree that Zorn's
naivete about Cage compares with Einstein's alleged "naivete" about the
physical universe. If Einstein was naive about physics, I would ask
where that places the rest of us. Einstein was a master of physics and
was deeply involved with it, and he knew the implications of what he was
saying about God throwing dice. Einstein himself was a major contributor
to the development of quantum mechanics and thoroughly understood its
meaning.

However, Zorn's statements about Cage reveal an ignorance of Cage's
ideas on a fundamental level. That Zorn would cavalierly dismiss Cage's
methods as a mere throwing of coins betrays a misunderstanding of Cage's
purpose for doing so, and it misrepresents Cage's music.
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stickman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn At Knit. Tonight
Date: 09 Feb 1997 15:11:15 -0800

A friend and i were going to see Zorn tonight at the Knitting Factory,
but we were unsure of what was scheduled. Does anyone know what context
Zorn will be performing in?

I've usually try to check in advance, but am unable to this time.
Sometimes Zorn may be listed, but that doesn't neccessarilly mean that
he'll be performing (For example, did anyone catch Zorn's "Pueblo" at the
Cooler a year or so ago? He sat  down in front of all the musicians on
the floor while they played the same slow 3 0r 4 chord progression for
about 40 min. Quite dull, actually, though the restlessness from the
audience yelling out "Freebird" half way through it cracked up Joey
Baron.)
                Thanks..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 09 Feb 1997 12:49:56 -0800


On Sun, 09 Feb 1997 11:17:20 -0700  Larry Solomon wrote:
>
> Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >Zorn's image (flipping coin) is not more naive that Einstein's one (God
> >does not play dice). In clear: it is a simple way to convey a basic
> >problem. In Zorn's case (about Cage): the fact that critical decisions in
> >the process of composing are the result of some random processes.
>
> I'm not sure that I understand this, but I can't agree that Zorn's
> naivete about Cage compares with Einstein's alleged "naivete" about the
> physical universe. If Einstein was naive about physics, I would ask
> where that places the rest of us. Einstein was a master of physics and
> was deeply involved with it, and he knew the implications of what he was
> saying about God throwing dice. Einstein himself was a major contributor
> to the development of quantum mechanics and thoroughly understood its
> meaning.

We all know that. What I was trying to convey is that we should be careful
in taking too seriously a statement when the context is missing. I had
always assumed that Zorn was Cage litterate, and hence I did take this
sentence for what it is: a terse way of summarize something deeper.
A sentence that taken out of context and commented by people not familiar
to Zorn's respect for Cage can lead to endless thread :-).

By making the analogy with Einstein's famous quote, you immediately
reacted showing that you were aware of the context in which he made it.

Now, what I am saying is that Zorn's statement is just the tip of an
iceberg -- the famous missing context (about how he perceives Cage).

> However, Zorn's statements about Cage reveal an ignorance of Cage's
> ideas on a fundamental level. That Zorn would cavalierly dismiss Cage's
> methods as a mere throwing of coins betrays a misunderstanding of Cage's
> purpose for doing so, and it misrepresents Cage's music.

Zorn had been listening to Cage since he was 15 year old. I sincerely
doubt that his understanding of Cage's achievements is naive.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "k.   drudge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Einstein & quantum physics (was Re: Zorn and Cage...)
Date: 09 Feb 1997 16:46:07 -0500 (EST)

> I'm not sure that I understand this, but I can't agree that Zorn's
> naivete about Cage compares with Einstein's alleged "naivete" about the
> physical universe. If Einstein was naive about physics, I would ask
> where that places the rest of us. Einstein was a master of physics and
> was deeply involved with it, and he knew the implications of what he was
> saying about God throwing dice. Einstein himself was a major contributor
> to the development of quantum mechanics and thoroughly understood its
> meaning.

It is untrue that Einstein was a major contributor to the development
of quantum mechanics.  His relativity theories are entirely deterministic,
and throughout his career, Einstein maintained a
stubborn opposition to quantum mechanics; in fact his statement that `God
does not play dice' was a reflection of his deep philosophical opposition
to the theory.  The question of whether he thoroughly understood its
meaning is a different (more difficult) one; did anyone of his generation
(does anyone now) fully  understand the meaning of quantum physics?
I realize this is more or less irrelevant to the thread, but I saw the
statement and had to respond.
All the best,
Keldon


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 09 Feb 1997 20:01:47 -0400

Hi gang,

I'm not sure if this was touched on, but in reading interviews with Zorn, I
got the impression that he is very anti non-emotional; i.e. modern
techniques of composition and musical thinking were cool, but he wasn't
happy with how they lacked emotion. I believe in one interview he actually
called himself a "neo-romanticist" (tho obviously not in the same vein as
Barber or Britten :-)

So, I'm wondering if this attitude is related to the comment about Cage
tossing coins, ipso facto composing without emotional means, and not to any
amout of ignorance on Zorn's part. Thoughts?

And I missed this too (or perhaps this is part of the conflict); what is
the exact quote by Zorn about Cage?

Matthew


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Einstein & quantum physics (was Re: Zorn and Cage...)
Date: 09 Feb 1997 18:59:02 -0800


On Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:46:07 -0500 (EST)  "k. drudge" wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure that I understand this, but I can't agree that Zorn's
> > naivete about Cage compares with Einstein's alleged "naivete" about the
> > physical universe. If Einstein was naive about physics, I would ask
> > where that places the rest of us. Einstein was a master of physics and
> > was deeply involved with it, and he knew the implications of what he was
> > saying about God throwing dice. Einstein himself was a major contributor
> > to the development of quantum mechanics and thoroughly understood its
> > meaning.
>
> It is untrue that Einstein was a major contributor to the development
> of quantum mechanics.  His relativity theories are entirely deterministic,
> and throughout his career, Einstein maintained a

Hard statements! I guess the following is negligeable:

    - explanation of the photoelectric effect
    - spontaneous and stimulated radiation
    - derivation of the Bose-Einstein statistic

And I am sure that I am forgetting other key achievements (specific
heat?).

Einstein was the first to explicitely introduce quantification of
electromagnetic fields (Planck's introduction of h was more like a
technical trick that lead to a workable expression for the black body
spectrum; Planck did not believe that the introduction of h was more
than that).

Yes, he was not involved at all in the developement of the theory in
the '20s.

Yes, he was opposed to the "orthodox" interpretation of quantum
mechanics, but it does not change the fact that he is with Planck
and Bohr, one the fathers of the theory.

In the early '40s, when Feynman and Wheeler were working on what
would become QED, who did they ask for advice? Einstein.

Of course, I am not even mentioning the fundamental role of relativistic
covariance in the developement of quantum mechanics and QED.

> stubborn opposition to quantum mechanics; in fact his statement that `God
> does not play dice' was a reflection of his deep philosophical opposition
> to the theory.  The question of whether he thoroughly understood its
> meaning is a different (more difficult) one; did anyone of his generation
> (does anyone now) fully  understand the meaning of quantum physics?
> I realize this is more or less irrelevant to the thread, but I saw the
> statement and had to respond.
> All the best,

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wilson, King of Prussia" <[e-mail]>
Subject: A Question brought about by Zorn vs. Cage.....
Date: 10 Feb 1997 00:14:43 -0600

  Hey all,

  The recent thread of Zorn vs. Cage has been really interesting.  I find
myself at somewhat of a loss because I am not familier with Cage's work,
but  I am very much a Zorn fan.  But while reading the thread, I realized I
know little about the man aside from what from what others have written
about him.  Because of his media blackout, I hear few direct quotes, and my
distrust of other's words always rears up when I hear explainations of his
work.   This, combined with the fact that I have never seen him perform (he
seems to have INCREDIBLY bad timing when he comes to Chicago (not bloody
often))  leads me to ask the following questions:
  Where can I find interviews with him?  Anyone have a list?  Does anyone
have anything they could send me over the net?

  Anyway, enough about this.  I assume this is a question alot of people
are asking, so maybe everyone could contribute what they know......

 Thanks for taking the time.....


















                                read icculus



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: COBRA
Date: 10 Feb 1997 10:50:47 CST


Can anyone tell me where to get a hold of the "score" ( or shall I say,
"rules" ) for Cobra?

Is it published anywhere? PD?

Thanks in advance,

Lyle R.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 10 Feb 1997 19:46:59 -0800 (PST)



On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Ernest Glib wrote:

>
> patrice,
> would the image lose some force were cage construed as suggesting a
> re-evaluation of what are the `critical decisions in the process of
> composing?' -b
>
Well put, or even substitute constructed for construed.

Bob


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Torsten Nielsen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Next batch of Tzadik releases
Date: 12 Feb 1997 13:02:28 +0100 (MET)

> Here is the next batch (courtesy of David Newgarden):
>
> In Late Spring or Summer
> Mike Patton
> Burt Bacharach
> Filmworks IV
> Zorn - New Traditions In East Asian Bar Bands

Is this a new Mike Patton cd? Any info? Is it solo voice?

Jonas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Next batch of Tzadik releases
Date: 12 Feb 1997 08:19:54 -0800


On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:02:28 +0100 (MET)  Torsten Nielsen wrote:
>
> > Here is the next batch (courtesy of David Newgarden):
> >
> > In Late Spring or Summer
> > Mike Patton
> > Burt Bacharach
> > Filmworks IV
> > Zorn - New Traditions In East Asian Bar Bands
>
> Is this a new Mike Patton cd? Any info? Is it solo voice?

It is definitely a new record, but I have no more info on it.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (James Hale)
Subject: Victoriaville 97
Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:45:34 -0500

I received the preliminary lineup for the Victoriaville International
Festival Musique Actuelle today.
The dates are May 15 - 19.
Acts include: Phil Minton Quartet, Fred Frith Quartet, William Parker
Quartet, Bobby Previte's The Horse You Rode In On, William Hooker and Lee
Ranaldo, Borah Bergman, ROVA x 8, Doctor Nerve, etc. ... 23 in all.
Check out their homepage at www.bw.qc.ca/FIMAV97

James Hale



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ernest Glib <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 10 Feb 1997 17:34:27 -0500


patrice,
would the image lose some force were cage construed as suggesting a
re-evaluation of what are the `critical decisions in the process of
composing?' -b


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ernest Glib <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn (early)
Date: 11 Feb 1997 16:42:42 -0500


thing is, everytime i try to construct cage, i wind up on the same
side as, and am promptly torn to shreds by, ol' wil's fearfully
symmetric vision so i cop out and construe. i wonder if anyone now
wants to comment on zorn's early works cd -- a question keldon asked a
while back -- and why no one's offered mild rebuke to patrice's
decorticating keldon (divine's butt'd fit betwixt major and
negligible) and core-dumping on the bruised bark chips. -b

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Smith)
Subject: Replacement for Painkiller at the Knit
Date: 06 Feb 1997 12:40:59 -0500

For those who have been waiting to find out who would replace Painkiller at
the Knitting Factory on Sunday, February 9, it'll be Zorn and Fred Frith.
Fred plays solo here tonight in a double bill with the Wayne
Horvitz/Briggan Krauss duo.  And as for a show of related interest, Anthony
Coleman's Selfhaters are here in the Alterknit Theater on Friday Feb. 14.

A pulic service announcement from Steve Smith, yr. pal at the Knit



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 07 Feb 1997 10:11:43 -0800

Patrice Roussel wrote:


>> >At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
>> >many of his worshippers).
>>
>> Ditto for Zorn.
>
>There is still a slight difference: Cage is the darling of academia. Zorn
>is still not accepted in this temple.

While there could be some disagreement about how accepted Cage is within
the academy, it took him thirty years or more to get much attention there
at all.

By that standard, Zorn's probably at least a few months ahead of Cage.



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M.Ho" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: radical jewish culture?
Date: 07 Feb 1997 12:37:12 EST


I read a marc ribot interview that was explaining how he,
Zorn, Lou Reed and others organized an event in Germany a few years
back called the Radical New Jewish Culture Festival in order to make
a statement against the rise of the neo-Nazism and the increase
activity of anti-semitism.

"Twenty-six people were killed in Germany last year [1993] by
Rightists," says Ribot.  "There is a resurgence of neo-Nazism.  Many
of the bands I work with are Jewish, which is an issue.  Especially
those of us that use elements of hardcore in our music - we did not
want to have our silence seen as complicity, so we tried to make some
kind of statement."
>
> Hi.  What's this radical jewish culture reference mean?  Does it mean
> that the themes of the music are either jewish in nature or have many
> influences from that culture or what?  Thanks for the info.
>
>
> scott K. Lawlor
> http://w3.gwis.com/~slawlor
>
>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb
Date: 14 Feb 1997 08:45:58 -0800


On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:11:43 -0800  Herb Levy wrote:
>
> Patrice Roussel wrote:
>
>
> >> >At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
> >> >many of his worshippers).
> >>
> >> Ditto for Zorn.
> >
> >There is still a slight difference: Cage is the darling of academia. Zorn
> >is still not accepted in this temple.
>
> While there could be some disagreement about how accepted Cage is within
> the academy, it took him thirty years or more to get much attention there
> at all.
>
> By that standard, Zorn's probably at least a few months ahead of Cage.

I think I did not express myself clearly (which happens more often that I
would like :-). I was trying to talk about the special contemporary audience
that is always afraid to miss any "creative" event. An audience that has
despise (best case), or condenscending (worst) attitude toward what is
not "their" music.

This is why I kind of gave up on contemporary music 15 years ago. I was willing
to keep up with the antics of the composers, but it was getting harder and harder
to deal with the snobism and elitism of the audience.

This is what I had in mind when I said that Cage was their little darling.

Compared to Cage's audience, Zorn's one look like a bunch of guys you could
have a beer with :-).

My use of "academia" was definitely incorrect, and applies (as Herb immediately
recognized) to a more recent period. Now, Cage is an institution, but I agree
that it took a long time to reach that level.

But the situation I was describing ("the darling" of the beautiful and hipster-
than-thou people), was happening fairly early in his carreer. To my knowledge,
Zorn is not even mentioned in any of the arty magazines that will never miss
any performance of Cunningham, etc. This is a temple where having clean shoes
is not enough to be accepted...

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 14 Feb 1997 13:17:18 -0800


On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:34:27 -0500  Ernest Glib wrote:
>
> would the image lose some force were cage construed as suggesting a
> re-evaluation of what are the `critical decisions in the process of
> composing?' -b

I have read this sentence about ten times and I do not understand it.
Is it based on a limitation of my understanding of the English language
or the diameter of my brain, not sure...

If you really want an answer, could you rephrase it?

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier <[e-mail]>
Subject: Knitting Factory Birthday
Date: 14 Feb 1997 22:02:16 +0100

Hi,

For a French man, do you have any news of the shows at the Knit ?

* On the 4th, the day of the birthday
* on Painkiller, on Sunday
* on Diamanda Galas, on Monday


Thanks a lot

Olivier


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn (early)
Date: 14 Feb 1997 13:18:57 -0800


On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:42:42 -0500  Ernest Glib wrote:
>
>
> thing is, everytime i try to construct cage, i wind up on the same
> side as, and am promptly torn to shreds by, ol' wil's fearfully
> symmetric vision so i cop out and construe. i wonder if anyone now
> wants to comment on zorn's early works cd -- a question keldon asked a
> while back -- and why no one's offered mild rebuke to patrice's
> decorticating keldon (divine's butt'd fit betwixt major and
> negligible) and core-dumping on the bruised bark chips. -b

Am I the only to have trouble to read you? I can barely grasp what
you are trying to say :-). Could you add a little bit of redundancy
in your message?

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 14 Feb 1997 16:40:46 -0700

On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:42:42 -0500  Ernest Glib wrote:
>
> thing is, everytime i try to construct cage, i wind up on the same
> side as, and am promptly torn to shreds by, ol' wil's fearfully
> symmetric vision so i cop out and construe. i wonder if anyone now
> wants to comment on zorn's early works cd -- a question keldon asked a
> while back -- and why no one's offered mild rebuke to patrice's
> decorticating keldon (divine's butt'd fit betwixt major and
> negligible) and core-dumping on the bruised bark chips. -b

HUH??!! What genre of Python-like banter is this?
--

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Linda Highland)
Subject: Acceptance of Zorn by the "serious" Cage audience
Date: 14 Feb 1997 16:47:30 -0500

My first introductiojn to Zorn was 5 or 6 years ago, whe at the end
of a Cage symposium at the NE Conservatory (attended by Cage himself,
possibly an artist in residence at the time) they performed works of
other contemporary performers,  One was Zorn, and I thought it was
amazing. It causeed me to seek out more of his work.
I notice many in the audience, however, looking less impressed, and
sure enough, I believe a reviewer questioned whether Zorn had "soul", or
someting like that. I believe I also heard comments about his work being
too angry....
Interestingly enough, my then roommate, a student from Israel, had
brought her sketch book to draw some of the proceedings and one of these
"serious" Cage aficiandos kept giving her dirty looks and finally
grabbed her hand  to stop her from drawing.  The "noise" of the pencil
against the paper was distacting him from the performace..,,,,Cage
followers too stuffy for Zorn?  What a surprise!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Toshi D. Makihara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New "Philadelphia Improvisers Network" page
Date: 15 Feb 1997 09:09:14 +0900

Hi all.

I recently checked Ben Burck's "Philadelphia
Improvisers Network" page, and it is gone! Burck
moved out of Philadelphia, and the page was no
longer maintained by him. His whole web site is no
longer available.. I am glad that I saved all the
data just in case.. I created a new "Philadelphia
Improvisers Network" page at:

 http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos/pin.htm

The list of Philadelphia improvisers is now at:

 http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos/pinnames.htm

Please update your link if you still have the old
URL (http://pobox.upenn.edu/~burck/improv.html)..
These pages are now maintained by Toshi Makihara
([e-mail])..

Thank you.

T o s h i   D.   M a k i h a r a  -  percussionist
[e-mail]  |  http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos
BASE-MENT:  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tosmos
New Music PhiBa:  http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos/nm_phiba.htm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ockham's stubble" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn
Date: 15 Feb 1997 20:36:56 -0500


you seemed to be saying that the `image' of cage flipping coins for 20
years indicated a `problem,' which you described as leaving the
`critical decisions in the process of composing' to chance. the quotes
are not scare quotes, they enclose text that i am certain was in your
post (which i no longer have). one impression i get is that cage
wanted to think again about the decisions a composer makes when
creating a piece of music. this is distinct from simply making other
decisions. in particular, he might come up with different anwers than
conventional wisdom concerning which decisions are the critical ones.
given this, i wondered whether the image offered might be missing its
mark, or at best land a glancing blow. how's that? (i prefer the
original formulation.)

i'd like to leave the second message alone.

zorn is taken up, at least around here, in music courses with titles
involving the word avant-garde. perhaps the coverage is superficial,
but his presence is not denied and he is regarded as an innovator.
there are political objections, however: i heard that last year (i
think) someone read a paper at a meeting somewhere (is that vague
enough?) and the point was that we shouldn't put up with his portrayal
of women. i believe spillane and torture garden were among the
offending releases. please don't leap down my throat for writing this.
my opinion, if you care for it, is that given the diversity of his
output, this is rather like taking kafka to task for portraying
travelling salesmen as repulsive bugs.

perfunctorily yours, b

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Geert.Buelens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn, Cunningham and Academia
Date: 17 Feb 1997 13:45:11 +0100 (MET)

Hi,

Apparantly, arty magazines, arts festivals etc in Europe (or at least,
Belgium) don't have the same attitude towards Zorn/Arts as the one
Patrice described. Cunningham and Zorn perform in the same venues, get
(most often positive) press reviews etc. Just a few weeks ago, Stuc in
Leuven (Louvain, in French) had a three week Zorn filmfestival (Thieves
Quartet, the Japanse pornmovies, Art of Remembrance...) and performances
by Anthony Coleman (one, Messing Up Stockhausen; the other was a sort of
lecture on Radical Jewish Culture); there's even a high brow essay on
Zorn in Dutch ('The corpse of the Composer' - re. Roland Barthes 'death
of the author').

Geert



 To my knowledge,
> Zorn is not even mentioned in any of the arty magazines that will never miss
> any performance of Cunningham, etc. This is a temple where having clean shoes
> is not enough to be accepted...
>
>     Patrice.
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Smith)
Subject: Zorn and Eye at the Knit... NOT
Date: 17 Feb 1997 15:00:40 -0500

Dear Zornlisters -

The ever-mercurial Mr. Zorn has announced the following change in plans for
his February 21 performance at the Knitting Factory:

Yamataka Eye was unable to make it to New York for this performance.
Instead Zorn will be performing with John "Plunderphonics" Oswald and
Makigami Koichi.  Makigami is of course an equally fascinating Japanese
vocalist who can be heard on his Tzadik solo CD "Kuchinoha" as well as seen
and heard in the Derek Bailey videotape "Company in Japan," while Oswald,
aside from his plunderphonics escapades, is also a first rate improvising
sax player.  What his role in these shows will be is anyone's guess, though
it appears that Zorn has him listed as "tape manipulation."

So far Zorn has indicated no changes in the lineup for March 2 (Ruins,
Mainliner and Zorn / Arto Lindsay).

- Steve
[e-mail]

Steve Smith
Public Relations Manager
Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works
74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 [phone] ext. 22
[e-mail]            http://www.knittingfactory.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn, Cage, fakery
Date: 19 Feb 1997 16:55:02 +1100 (EST)

In a coupla interviews Zorn refers to Nicholas Smolinsky's 1952 book,
"Lexicon of Musical Invective", which documents how the 'great' composers
(who basically define the canon of historical classical music) were
received by their contemporaries. I.e. as fakes w no no technique, noisy
racket-mongering punks, and v much worse unkind words. It seems everyone
from Mozart to Varese suffered similar malicious treatment at the hands of
bovine reviewers and jealous peers. But what these people are really
complaining about is: this music is too unfamiliar, too challenging. Just
goes to show: any fan of classical music, contemporary or otherwise,
expressing these sentiments is dead ignorant of their own sub-cultural
tradition!

Every generation seems to pick up the neglected (and by then, usually
dead) composers of the previous era, while remaining hostile to its
contemporary innovators. I dunno, I despair of it.
Cheers,

Jim k

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Linda Highland wrote:

> I notice many in the audience, however, looking less impressed, and
> sure enough, I believe a reviewer questioned whether Zorn had "soul", or
> someting like that. I believe I also heard comments about his work being
> too angry....
> against the paper was distacting him from the performace..,,,,Cage
> followers too stuffy for Zorn?  What a surprise!
>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nicholas Collins
Date: 19 Feb 1997 17:04:32 +1100 (EST)

Hi, unnh, just wondering if anyone know's how to get hold of music by
Nicholas Collins. In particular, "Devil's Music" (if its still available)
and "100 of the world's most beautiful melodies". Thanks, and Cheers,

Jim K



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Nicholas Collins
Date: 19 Feb 1997 08:21:21 -0800


On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:04:32 +1100 (EST)  James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
> Hi, unnh, just wondering if anyone know's how to get hold of music by
> Nicholas Collins. In particular, "Devil's Music" (if its still available)
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On Lovely, right? This is still available, I am pretty sure (I bought mine
just two years ago).

> and "100 of the world's most beautiful melodies". Thanks, and Cheers,
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This one is out of print.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: really Otomo's Ground Zero?
Date: 21 Feb 1997 09:14:52 -0800


       Does anybody know the following record:


*** - THE HAIR & SKIN TRADING CO./JO IN NINE G HELL: various artists

  This record features Elevenate, Flat Truck, Torque, Monkies, Kak, Where's
  Gala, Ground Zero, $1000 Pledge, The Final Nail, Pipeline.

    1993 - Beggar's Banquet (USA), BEG 07863 66136-2 (CD)


Could it really be the Ground Zero of Otomo Yoshihide?

       Thanks,

       Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Todd Hildreth)
Subject: Tim Berne in Louisville, KY
Date: 21 Feb 1997 17:38:04 GMT

Just a note to let everybody know that Tim Berne's Bloodcount will be
making am appearance here in Louisville, KY on Marsh 14th.  If you're
interested in this, email me and I'll keep you posted as I find out
more info.

Todd

---=20
http://www.webcom.com/groove/javamen/welcome.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Cul de Sac Live(s),with E#/Zeena/Bachir Attar @The Cooler, etc.
Date: 21 Feb 1997 18:01:26 -0500 (EST)

Greetings, fellow appreciators of fine music,

     Just wanted to plug the Cul de Sac tour, which will start off in NYC @
The Cooler on Wed. 2/26.  Sharing the bill will be Elliott Sharp/Zeena
Parkins/Bachir Attar (from The Master Musician's of Jajouka) Doors at 8pm,
show at 9pm.  The Cooler is located on West 14th St., and their phone # is
212-229-0785.  Stops along the tour include Philly, Chicago, and Michigan, in
case these lists are wondering why I've posted with them, too.

     Cul de Sac maintains a website @:
http://www1.shore.net/~csf/culdesac.htm
You can hear a 60 sec.sample of the tune "Doldrums" here and read the critics
raving about Cul de Sac.

     The tour line-up will be:Robin Amos (analog and digital synths, sampler)
                                      Glenn Jones (guiotar, bazooki)
                                      Jonathan LaMaster(bass, violin.Filling
in for Chris Fujiwara)
                                      Michael Knoblach (drums and percussion)

     You can also catch Cul de Sac in the following places:

Thurs. 2/27 Phildelphia: Dragon's Den, 3210 Chestnut , on the Drexel
Univ.campus
  with Bardo Pond and The Dealers

Fri. 2/28 Charlottsville, VA @ The Tokyo Rose Sushi and Bands (804-963-5478)
with Last Days of May and Carl P. (ex. Dream Syndicate)

Sat. 3/1 Durham, NC @ Duke Univ

Sun. 3/2 Greensboro, NC @ ? with Raymond Break

Mon. 3/3 Washington, DC @ The Black Cat Backroom (202-667-4527) with Tone

Tues. 3/4 Athens, GA @ Atomic Cafe, 140 E. Washington St. with Elf Power
(Members of Neutral Milk and Olivia Tremor Control)

Wed. 3/5 Atlanta, GA @ Dottie's (404-523-3444) ?

Thurs. 3/6 Birmingham, AL @ ??

Fri. 3/7 Memphis, TN @ Barristers, 147 Jefferson St. with Hot Monkey

Sat. 3/8 Columbia, MO? KC?  Wanna book us?

Sun 3/9 ??

Mon. 3/10 Lawrence, KS @ Replay Lounge (913-838-4510) with Rome

Tues. 3/11 Chicago, IL @ Lounge Axe, 2438 N. Lincoln with Rome

Wed. 3/12 Bloomington, IN @ The University somewhere? with Rome

Thurs. 3/13 ??  Your midwestern town, USA??

Fri. 3/14 Grand Rapids, MI @ ?

Sat. 3/15 Detroit, MI @ Alvin's (313-538-4962) with Rome

Sun. 3/16 Cleveland, OH @ Speak in Tongues

Mon. 3/17 Pittsburgh, PA @ Charlie's?  The Beehive? With ?Dim Sum Clip Job??

Tues. 3/18 Providence, RI @ ??


Hope to see folks at some of these shows!!  Come introduce yourselves, I'd
love to meet one and all of ya!

Jonathan LaMaster
Unsound Productions/ Boston Creative Music Alliance





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Allan)
Subject: Re: really Otomo's Ground Zero?
Date: 21 Feb 1997 20:19:59 -0800

Patrice asked:

>       Does anybody know the following record:
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** - THE HAIR & SKIN TRADING CO./JO IN NINE G HELL: various artists
>
>  This record features Elevenate, Flat Truck, Torque, Monkies, Kak, Where's
>  Gala, Ground Zero, $1000 Pledge, The Final Nail, Pipeline.
>
>    1993 - Beggar's Banquet (USA), BEG 07863 66136-2 (CD)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Could it really be the Ground Zero of Otomo Yoshihide?

While I can't say that I've heard the record in question, I know that it's
not a "various artists" compilation, the listing is in error.  It's the
band Hair & Skin Trading Co., an spin-off from Loop (cousin to Main), and
so therefore Ground Zero, Kak, etc. are all song titles, not band names.

There was also a rap group a few years back by the name of Ground Zero,
their record featured a Bootsy Collins cameo.  Somebody should arrange for
Bootsy to do something with Otomo's Ground Zero, I suggest.

--Allan Horrocks



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: I'm new
Date: 22 Feb 1997 18:33:28 -0500

Hello,

    My name is Tom Pratt, I'm a 15 year old guitar player and fairly new
fan of John Zorn.  I have Masada 2 and 3 and Bar Kokhba but that's it.
I've heard Naked City (with the dead gangster) but don't own it.  My
musical interests include Medeski, Martin & Wood, Dave Douglas, Mark
Feldman, Bill Frisell, Joey Baron, Human Feel, Anthony Braxton, Mark
Dresser, Jonas Hellborg, Bill Frisell, Erik Friedlander, Eric Dolphy,
Miles Davis, Grachan Moncur III, and lots of other stuff.  As you can
see, most of these people lead to John Zorn in some way.  Anyway, I'm
looking to find more albums out by John Zorn that I would like. I know
that his music ranges a lot from album to album but any sort of
recommendations would be appreciated.  Glad to be here!

            -Tom Pratt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 22 Feb 1997 16:38:45 -0800 (PST)

Hi, and welcome aboard!
Two words:  TORTURE GARDEN.  THis was my first zorn album, and it started
me off right.  42 songs, 24 minutes...What more could you ask for?
Also, Painkiller's execution ground double cd.  Umm...incredible.
For more straighter stuff, get every masada album you can find, because
they all equally kick ass.  Especially the 1994 live one (may take a bit
to find it).  If you want to get both feet right in to his weirdness, get
a classic guide to strategy.  OH!  Very importantly, check out FILMWORKS
2!  I think everyone will agree that it is truly something special.
there are some EXTREME zorn collecters on this list that could do about a
million times of a better job of advising you, but this should get your
feet into some of his main stuff.  Ok.  THat's all.  Take  care.
j



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:36:07 -0500 (EST)



On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> Two words:  TORTURE GARDEN.  THis was my first zorn album, and it started
> me off right.  42 songs, 24 minutes...What more could you ask for?
> Also, Painkiller's execution ground double cd.  Umm...incredible.
> For more straighter stuff, get every masada album you can find, because
> they all equally kick ass.  Especially the 1994 live one (may take a bit
> to find it).  If you want to get both feet right in to his weirdness, get
> a classic guide to strategy.

I'd second all of the above.  _Torture Garden_ is included on the CD
_Grand Guignol_.  Note that _A Classic Guide to Strategy_ is
solo reed improvisation.  Of the studio Masada albums, which are easier to
find and not bootlegs, many Zorn fans seem to give the edge to _Masada 3_.

  OH!  Very importantly, check out FILMWORKS
> 2!  I think everyone will agree that it is truly something special.

I'm surprised by this one.  Is there really a consensus on this?  I like
it fine, but I like it less than the other _Filmworks_ discs.

I'd also recommend _Cobra_ as the best example of Zorn's game
compositions.  (Go for the Hat Hut version if possible, and avoid the
Knitting Factory Works version, unless you turn into a completist.)  Also
_The Big Gundown_ for his work as an arranger of other people's
compositions, and _Yankees_ for group improv.  Obviously, the above is a
big list; you should dive into whatever portion of it most
interests you.

Chris Hamilton

P.S.  Welcome to the list, Tom.  I accidentally deleted your initial post,
so I apologize if I've recommended anything you already have.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Chavez-Paul)
Subject: Cobra - Tokyo Operations Disc
Date: 24 Feb 1997 00:30:06 -0800

I'm curious to know if people would recommend this disc. My curiosity was touched from
reading the list of instruments used. I don't have the other Cobra discs (but I've
heard them and thought they were ok). I enjoy the Masada series, Bar Kokhba,
Filmworks, as well as the Naked City stuff (except Radio).

I was wondering if Tokyo Operations is mellow or noisey and spastic. Any input is
appreciated.

Paul

NP: Dead C - Repent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Cobra - Tokyo Operations Disc
Date: 24 Feb 1997 01:13:51 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 97-02-24 00:33:25 EST, [e-mail] (Chavez-Paul)
writes:

>  I enjoy the Masada series, Bar Kokhba,
>  Filmworks, as well as the Naked City stuff (except Radio).

I'm just wondering how you can not like this?  Especially since it isn't that
unsimilar to the first Naked City disc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cobra - Tokyo Operations Disc
Date: 24 Feb 1997 10:09:29 +0000

> I was wondering if Tokyo Operations is mellow or noisey and spastic. Any input is
> appreciated.
>
Paul, the short answer is, all of the above!
The Tokyo Cobra features the usual variety of players but the music
veers from traditional-ish (and I mean that term relatively) Japanese
music to full-on screaming improvisation and stops at most points in
between. It has a distinctly different character to the original NY
Cobra which features the by now fairly familiar mix of improvisation
and skewed scribbling around. Tokyo Operations is a good disc but
remember that Zorn doesn't play on it. It will also help if you are
familier with other Japanese underground acts such as Otomo Yoshihide,
Musica Transonic and Keiji Haino as their influence is distinctly
audible.

Scott Russell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Moffett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Blind Idiot God
Date: 24 Feb 1997 11:22:29 -0500 (EST)

I just picked up their self titled album on SST, and have fallen in love
with it.  How does their material on Avant compare to this album?

thanks

Matt


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 24 Feb 1997 18:34:05 +0200 (GMT+0200)

On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:

> _Torture Garden_ is included on the CD
> _Grand Guignol_.

I don't have GG (and I kick myself again just now for not buying it),
but... Isn't half of TG on Naked City 1 (the dead gangster)? I mean,
there's 45 or so tracks on TG. I think TG is spread on both CD versions
of NC1 and GG.

 teemu

OnNow: Air Liquide:'Red'

-------------
e-mail: [e-mail]                              "Follow that rat!"
Ruumen: http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html          - Fox Mulder -


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Blind Idiot God
Date: 24 Feb 1997 09:08:10 -0800

>I just picked up their self titled album on SST, and have fallen in love
>with it.  How does their material on Avant compare to this album?

I have no idea it compares, but I've got the album ("Cyclotron") on Avant
and just isn't my cup of tea, so, that said, if anyone wants to take a
chance on it, it yours for ... how about US $11, including 1st class
postage within the US.  For Canada add $1, elsewhere add $2.  Checks are
fine, some non-US currencies accepted.  Please e-mail me directly if you're
interested.

Hmm, probably the same thing goes for the Pig Pen disc on Avant and some
other stuff, but I need to listen to it again.

Alexander
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 24 Feb 1997 20:52:36 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, silver whale wrote:

> I don't have GG (and I kick myself again just now for not buying it),
> but... Isn't half of TG on Naked City 1 (the dead gangster)? I mean,
> there's 45 or so tracks on TG. I think TG is spread on both CD versions
> of NC1 and GG.

ARGH!  My bad.  33 of 45 tracks are on _Grand Guignol_.  Enough, I think,
to make it a reasonable substitute.

Chris Hamilton


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cobra - Tokyo Operations Disc
Date: 24 Feb 1997 21:08:08 -0500 (EST)



I like it a lot.  It's more accessible than the Hat Hut version, with more
obvious genre references.  It's not mellow, but I can play it in the
middle of the night without annoying my neighbors.  However, if you're not
into the more improv-oriented parts of Zorn's work, I couldn't recommend
it as a good way in.

Chris Hamilton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 24 Feb 1997 12:03:07 -0800 (PST)


The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that the
cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The gangster
album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.

On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, silver whale wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Feb 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> > _Torture Garden_ is included on the CD
> > _Grand Guignol_.
>
> I don't have GG (and I kick myself again just now for not buying it),
> but... Isn't half of TG on Naked City 1 (the dead gangster)? I mean,
> there's 45 or so tracks on TG. I think TG is spread on both CD versions
> of NC1 and GG.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 08:29:50 +0000

The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that
the cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The
gangster album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.

Patrice

Regarding the above comment,I'm a little confused about the thrash
tracks that make up Naked City/Torture Garden/Grand Guignol. I'm sure
if I'd read your discography thoroughly I'd know this but, are they
all from the same sessions? I know they are duplicated across these
discs but my understanding was that TT is duplicated on GG. I didn't
realise there were also duplications from NC? Am I wrong here? Does
the TT CD have even more tracks? Lastly I did look for the European CD
of TT as we discussed but I can't find it. A friend tells me he thinks
he has seen one on Earache but...

I'd appreciate your expert guidance.

Scott Russell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recommendations
Date: 25 Feb 1997 11:43:05 +0200 (GMT+0200)

On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> If you don't buy GG because it has repeated material
> on it, you do yourself a diservice, as you miss a whole different side of
> Zorn and Naked City.

No no no. I really kick myself for not getting it yet (and do it once
again, excuse me for a sec... outch!)  I really liked Messien (sp?) at one
time (still do) and I'm very interested to hear their version. The problem is,
however, that I have a 100-something list of records to get, and GG, for
some reason (maybe because Avant disks - it is on Avant, isn't it? - are
so phukin' expensive here) always got dropped out of my list then I had
money. Stupid me...

 teemu


-------------
e-mail: [e-mail]                              "Follow that rat!"
Ruumen: http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html          - Fox Mulder -


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: silver whale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 25 Feb 1997 11:47:37 +0200 (GMT+0200)

On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that the
> cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The gangster
> album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.

Well, I may be nitpickin' here, but I once had the TG lp (just loaned)
and it had lots of tracks from NC1 (speedball, I die screaming etc etc)
I've never even seen the cd of TG so I may not be qualified to make any
further comments... :)

Who could set the record straight? Anyone has the CDs for TG, GG _and_ NC1?

Maybe we should look at the discography? :)  Where is it, BTW?

 teemu

-------------
e-mail: [e-mail]                              "Follow that rat!"
Ruumen: http://www.siba.fi/~tkorpipa/ruumen.html          - Fox Mulder -


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jan-Wen Lu <[e-mail]>
Subject: Butch Morris CD's
Date: 25 Feb 1997 19:30:31 +0800

Hi,

I've been trying very hard to find Butch Morris' "Current Trends In Racism
In Modern America" and "Homeing" CD's. Both released by Sound Aspect Sound
in Germany. Does anyone know where to mail-order them? Or they were out of
print? Thanks.


Best regards,


Jan-Wen Lu
Taipei County, Taiwan
--
Jan-Wen Lu  E-Mail address: [e-mail]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Butch Morris
Date: 25 Feb 1997 11:56:51 +0000

Can anyone tell me anything about TESTAMENT: A CONDUCTION COLLECTION
by Lawrence "Butch" Morris. This is a 10 disc set of Morris conducting
various ensembles. I know very little about his music but feel I would
enjoy it based on the ensembles listed.

While I'm on the subject does anyone know anything about the Los
Angeles Free Music Society. I've been reading about them with some
interest but the only available recording is yet another 10 cd set.
Again, I'd appreciate any information anyone could provide.

Thanks in advance

Scott Russell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 08:07:47 -0800


On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 08:29:50 +0000  Scott Russell wrote:
>
> The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that
> the cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The
> gangster album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.
>
> Patrice
>
> Regarding the above comment,I'm a little confused about the thrash
> tracks that make up Naked City/Torture Garden/Grand Guignol. I'm sure
> if I'd read your discography thoroughly I'd know this but, are they
> all from the same sessions? I know they are duplicated across these
> discs but my understanding was that TT is duplicated on GG. I didn't
> realise there were also duplications from NC? Am I wrong here? Does
> the TT CD have even more tracks? Lastly I did look for the European CD
> of TT as we discussed but I can't find it. A friend tells me he thinks
> he has seen one on Earache but...


094 - TORTURE GARDEN: Naked City

    1/ Blood is Thin                            (Zorn)                   1:00
    2/ Demon Sanctuary                          (Zorn)                   0:38
    3/ Thrash Jazz Assassin                     (Zorn)                   0:45
    4/ Dead Spot                                (Zorn)                   0:31
    5/ Bonehead                                 (Zorn)                   0:51
    6/ Speedball                                (Zorn)                   0:37
    7/ Blood Duster                             (Zorn)                   0:13
    8/ Pile Driver                              (Zorn)                   0:33
    9/ Shangkuan Ling-Feng                      (Zorn)                   1:14
    10/ Numbskull                               (Zorn)                   0:29
    11/ Perfume Of A Critic's Burning Flesh     (Zorn)                   0:24
    12/ Jazz Snob Eat Shit                      (Zorn)                   0:24
    13/ The Prestidigitator                     (Zorn)                   0:43
    14/ No Reason To Believe                    (Zorn)                   0:26
    15/ Hellraiser                              (Zorn)                   0:39
    16/ Torture Garden                          (Zorn)                   0:35
    17/ Slan                                    (Zorn)                   0:23
    18/ Hammerhead                              (Zorn)                   0:08
    19/ The Ways Of Pain                        (Zorn)                   0:31
    20/ The Noose                               (Zorn)                   0:10
    21/ Sack Of Shit                            (Zorn)                   0:43
    22/ Blunt Instrument                        (Zorn)                   0:53
    23/ Osaka Bondage                           (Zorn)                   1:14
    24/ Igneous Ejaculation                     (Zorn)                   0:20
    25/ Shallow Grave                           (Zorn)                   0:40
    26/ Ujaku                                   (Zorn)                   0:27
    27/ Kaoru                                   (Zorn)                   0:50
    28/ Dead Dread                              (Zorn)                   0:45
    29/ Billy Liar                              (Zorn)                   0:10
    30/ Victims Of Torture                      (Zorn)                   0:22
    31/ Speedfreaks                             (Zorn)                   0:29
    32/ New Jersey Scum Swamp                   (Zorn)                   0:41
    33/ S & M Sniper                            (Zorn)                   0:14
    34/ Pigfucker                               (Zorn)                   0:23
    35/ Cairo Chop Shop                         (Zorn)                   0:22
    36/ Fuck The Facts                          (Zorn)                   0:11
    37/ Obeah Man                               (Zorn)                   0:17
    38/ Facelifter                              (Zorn)                   0:34
    39/ N.Y. Flat Top Box                       (Zorn)                   0:43
    40/ Whiplash                                (Zorn)                   0:19
    41/ The Blade                               (Zorn)                   0:36
    42/ Gob Of Spit                             (Zorn)                   0:18

    Recorded in Brooklyn, New York City and Tokyo 1989-1990

  John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Frisell: guitar; Wayne Horvitz: keyboards;
  Fred Frith: bass; Joey Baron: drums; Yamatsuka Eye: vocals.

    1990 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), S-039-CS (CT)
    1990 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), (45 RPM 12")
    1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 (LP)
    1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 CD (CD)
    1990 - Earache (UK), Mosh 28 MC (CT)
    1991 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88557 (CD)
    1993 - Shimmy-Disc (USA), 039 (CD)
    1996 - Tzadik (USA), TZ ???? (CD)

  Note: all the songs except (2,6,7,18,24,26,36,37,39) are also available on
  GRAND GUIGNOL (1992).
  Note: (2,6,7,18,24,26,36,37,39) were previously released on NAKED CITY
  (1990).
  Note: the Tzadik reissue is not released yet (planned for March 18, 1997).
  Note: the Tzadik reissue also includes LENG TCH'E (1992).



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 08:08:42 -0800

At 08:29 AM 2/25/97 +0000, Scott Russell wrote:
>The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that
>the cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The
>gangster album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.
>
>Patrice
>
>Regarding the above comment,I'm a little confused about the thrash
>tracks that make up Naked City/Torture Garden/Grand Guignol.

I'm a little confused too.  My copy of _Grand Guignol_ does not have all
the tracks that my (CD) copy of _Torture Garden_ has, yet some people have
said that all of _TG_ appears on _GG_.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Butch Morris CD's
Date: 25 Feb 1997 08:10:52 -0800


On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:30:31 +0800  Jan-Wen Lu wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been trying very hard to find Butch Morris' "Current Trends In Racism
> In Modern America" and "Homeing" CD's. Both released by Sound Aspect Sound
> in Germany. Does anyone know where to mail-order them? Or they were out of
> print? Thanks.

I have not seen CURRENT TRENDS... in ages and I guess it is out of print.
Concerning HOMEING, I bought my copy six months ago at Tower (although it
was the Tower on Piccadilly Circus :-). My guess is that it is still around.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I'm new
Date: 25 Feb 1997 16:48:46 -0500 (EST)



On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 [e-mail] wrote:

> The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that the
> cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The gangster
> album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.

The LP version of _Torture Garden_ has 42 pieces.  _Grand Guignol_
includes 33 of these plus "Grand Guignol" and the covers, with no
additional material.  The remaining nine tracks from the _Torture Garden_
LP are on _Naked City_; they're the nine tracks clocking under a minute
each.  Are you saying that the _Torture Garden_ CD contains some of the
more measured (one minute+) performances from _Naked City_?  Does the
_Torture Garden_ CD really have over 80 songs?

Confused in Pittsburgh



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Butch Morris
Date: 25 Feb 1997 16:32:00 -0500 (EST)



On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> Can anyone tell me anything about TESTAMENT: A CONDUCTION COLLECTION
> by Lawrence "Butch" Morris. This is a 10 disc set of Morris conducting
> various ensembles. I know very little about his music but feel I would
> enjoy it based on the ensembles listed.

I haven't heard this one either, but according to the 3rd edition of the
_Penguin Guide_ there are plans to release the discs separately.

Chris Hamilton



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Butch Morris
Date: 25 Feb 1997 14:29:58 -0800


On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:32:00 -0500 (EST)  Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Scott Russell wrote:
>
> > Can anyone tell me anything about TESTAMENT: A CONDUCTION COLLECTION
> > by Lawrence "Butch" Morris. This is a 10 disc set of Morris conducting
> > various ensembles. I know very little about his music but feel I would
> > enjoy it based on the ensembles listed.
>
> I haven't heard this one either, but according to the 3rd edition of the
> _Penguin Guide_ there are plans to release the discs separately.

This has already be done. They started to sell them separately 4-6 months
ago (in the US at least).

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: filmworks
Date: 25 Feb 1997 15:09:42 -0800 (PST)

I know there was a list put out semi-recently on this, but I
forgot.  When are filmworks 3 & 4 schedueled for release?
j



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 18:44:12 -0500

A little trivia about Torture Garden - Zorn says that the album is his
version of the Webern "Bagatelles".

MRD


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 15:54:28 -0800


On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:44:12 -0500  Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> A little trivia about Torture Garden - Zorn says that the album is his
> version of the Webern "Bagatelles".

He might have been thinking of:

    BAGATELLES POUR UN MASSACRE by Louis Ferdinand Celine...

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 16:02:34 -0800


On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:57:58 -0500  Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> >He might have been thinking of:
> >
> >    BAGATELLES POUR UN MASSACRE by Louis Ferdinand Celine...
>
> :-)

In fact a very bad joke... I should be ashamed of me.

    Patrice.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 18:57:58 -0500

>He might have been thinking of:
>
>    BAGATELLES POUR UN MASSACRE by Louis Ferdinand Celine...

:-)



| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recommendations
Date: 25 Feb 1997 19:00:11 -0500

>No no no. I really kick myself for not getting it yet (and do it once
>again, excuse me for a sec... outch!)  I really liked Messien (sp?) at one
>time (still do) and I'm very interested to hear their version.

Gotcha! I sympathise with you. Ah yes, it's quite good (Messiaen). The work
they do on there is from a larger piece by him titled "Quatuor pour la fin
du temps" (Quartet for the End of Time) which Messiaen wrote while in a
concentration camp. It's scored for Violin, Cello, Piano, and Clarinet;
these were the players who were available to Messiaen at the camp when they
let him give a performance. Supposedly, one of the string instruments was
missing a string and the piano was very badly out of tune at its world
premiere!

Good luck on getting GG back on your list, and then off again. My list is
well over a few hundred now myself!


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 25 Feb 1997 19:07:52 -0500

>> >    BAGATELLES POUR UN MASSACRE by Louis Ferdinand Celine...
>>
>> :-)
>
>In fact a very bad joke... I should be ashamed of me.

Eh, not that bad. I liked it!


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: show (fwd)
Date: 25 Feb 1997 18:14:07 -0800 (PST)




hello all, a couple show announcements headed your way...




Scott Rosenberg's Pocket Opera (working title)

SF Art Institute, 800 Chestnut, SF, CA
Thursday  Feb. 27, 1997 8:00 PM  FREE

Scott's heroic run of local shows continues with a work for spoken word,
and improvised music which features Mills' types: Matt Ingalls, Brian
Pearson, Cheryl Leonard, Richard Miller, and Bob Boster, along with other
members of the Bay Area improvisational community.  The piece moves the
texture and dynamism of Scott's instrumental compositions and
improvisation into a balanced relationship with the written word to
exciting effect... Q&A to follow the performance.


Please forward to all appropriate persons/lists.  Thanks.

----------------------===---------------====------------------==-------

Bob Boster (aka Mr. Meridies)

[e-mail]            [e-mail]
              [e-mail]

PO Box 9383 Oakland, CA 94613 510-655-8636




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: show (fwd)
Date: 25 Feb 1997 18:14:24 -0800 (PST)







     arent you through yet?      a concert of acoustic music
                   presented by friction media and 2779

Thursday, March 6th   8pm  at    2779 (formerly Komotion)
16th St  and  Folsom, SF, CA.  $3 requested donation.
     Info: 510-655-8636 or email: [e-mail]

Bringing together composers, conceptualists, songwriters,
and improvisers for an evening of blurring genre boundaries.

featuring new works by:

        A.L. Dentel
        Cheryl Leonard
        kristi metal
        Bob Boster
        Scott Rosenberg
        Tim White

along with performers:

        Adrienne Waterman
        Ian Davis
        Jessica Courtier
        Aurora
        Brian Pearson
        Matt Ingalls
        Elizabeth Gray


More information about composers below. Please forward to all appropriate
persons/lists.  Thanks.





This concert is the second in a series of collaborations between Friction
Media and 2779 (the collective club/studio formerly known as Komotion).
The first, momentum, focused on electronic music, and brought out artists
and audience from a variety of backgrounds to examine a wide range of
styles.

aren't you through yet? looks at acoustic music (although there may be
some stretching of this boundary) with the same interest in breaking
through genre limitations as momentum.  This informal concert brings a
range of styles together rarely seen in either  academic or popular
venues, but all the work is linked by a strong sense of individual vision
and iconoclasm.  Below is a brief description of the composers and/or
their work....

A.L. Dentel  presents a piece from her magnum opus, 365.  This collection
of daily pieces from the last 12 months ranges from the highly conceptual
to excruciatingly detailed notated pieces.  Her offering for this concert,
"9/17/96 - Ritual" is for  nonpianist: Adrienne Waterman and
nonclarinetist, Aurora.

Cheryl Leonard's work has earned her acclaim and interest (including a
1996 Bay Area Award from New Langton Arts), whether electronic, acoustic,
or both.  Cheryl is active in the Bay Area improvisational community, a
member of the 23-five collective (a Bay Area noise label), a participant
in the underground experimental rock band Caroliner, and presented a piece
at last years Seamus conference.

kristi metal moves back and forth across a spectrum of personal expression
from performance art to singer/songwriter material and various places in
between, all powerfully drawn from her life experience, and all involving
voice and movement.  kristi also uses piano and other sound sources, and
always challenges the audience, in some way, to see inside her life.

Bob Boster is the local representative of the Friction Media collective
(see below for details) and actively performing electronic music as Mr.
Meridies.  This piece, "Obfuscation", written for two interwoven
ensembles, one of pitched instruments and another of percussion, focuses
on "covering" and "being hidden".

Scott Rosenberg is a reed player and composer whose concertizing and
recent CD release (are on Super J Recordings) has brought him the
unofficial title of busiest man in Bay Area show biz.  Scott's palette has
recently expanded to include contrabass clarinet, and this piece will
focus on that amazing instrument  In general, Scott's playing often seems
to exceed the expectations of the genre "free jazz", somehow wandering
into the "non-idiomatic improvisational music" category.

Tim White is a Bay Area fixture, whether as a composer, studio builder and
engineer, participant in the Good Sound Foundations acoustic work, or
student of Ali Akbar Khan.  Tonight Tim will offer something new for
sitar, and his playing must be seen/heard to be believed....



Friction Media is a collective founded in Chapel Hill, NCs eclectic music
scene to smash expectations about  genre limitations in music.  Since that
time members of the collective have moved to the SF Bay Area and NYC  in
an effort to gain foothold in those centers of culture.  Friction Medias
visionary compilation CD, Cognitive Mapping Vol. 2 epitomizes the groups
agenda, and the highly acclaimed zine _Tuba Frenzy_ spreads the gospel on
paper.  To contact us, write to PO Box 373, Chapel Hill, NC 27514 or email
friction@ pobox.com.







----------------------===---------------====------------------==-------

Bob Boster (aka Mr. Meridies)

[e-mail]            [e-mail]
              [e-mail]

PO Box 9383 Oakland, CA 94613 510-655-8636
            PO Box 373 Chapel Hill, NC 27514 919-942-7672






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       time signatures
Date: 26 Feb 1997 11:47:07 GMT0BST

Just replaced Masada 1 (stolen 15 months ago) and this week's sublime
moment comes at the end of Dave Douglas' solo on Janohah (?), where
he plays that "creeping up behind you" riff and segues into the
instrumental riff from the opening of Singin' In The Rain ...

What I wanted to ask any musos on this list concerns a song on Masada
3.  I don't know its title, as this CD too was stolen and I haven't
replaced it yet, but it comes somewhere in the middle of the disc.
It opens with Greg Cohen alone playing a riff in 8, subdivided 3-
3-2.  When the horns enter, the "verse", if i can call it that,
seems to be in 31 (!), but I could never seem to subdivide it
further than that (not even whether 15-16 or 16-15 !).  Even worse,
the "bridge" (or "B" section) seemed to be in something else
altogether, but, by that time, I was completely lost.

Can anyone help?  Can anyone even work out which song I am describing?

Sean Wilkie
lone

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:17:46 +0000

I take it everyone has heard that Tony Williams died?

Even though he is not directly involved in the music we discuss here,
it's still a sad day indeed. I reckon he was one of the great
drummers. I saw him at The Glasgow Jazz Festival a few years ago and
he was still playing up a storm.

A great loss.

I know I'll miss him.

Scott Russell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 08:51:45 -0600 (CST)


On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> Even though he is not directly involved in the music we discuss here,
> it's still a sad day indeed. I reckon he was one of the great
> drummers. I saw him at The Glasgow Jazz Festival a few years ago and
> he was still playing up a storm.

To be a bit of a trainspotter, I'll point out that yes, Williams was
directly related to the music we discuss here.  He appeared last year on
the Arcana CD with Bill Laswell and Derek Bailey.  It was nice to see that
he could appreciate the avant garde.

RIP,

Paul
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:42:41 +0000

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Scott Russell wrote:
>
> > Even though he is not directly involved in the music we discuss here,
> > it's still a sad day indeed. I reckon he was one of the great
> > drummers. I saw him at The Glasgow Jazz Festival a few years ago and
> > he was still playing up a storm.
>
> To be a bit of a trainspotter, I'll point out that yes, Williams was
> directly related to the music we discuss here.  He appeared last year on
> the Arcana CD with Bill Laswell and Derek Bailey.  It was nice to see that
> he could appreciate the avant garde.
>
> RIP,
>
Paul

You are, of course, correct. I have the Arcana CD and I was thinking
it could have been an interesting new direction for him. After all he
was one of the people who freed jazz drumming from standard
timekeeping. Williams had a sixth sense for  space and tension in
music that left mostdrummers atnding. I also thought his drumming on
Arcana was less adventurous than in other bands; check out Miles
Complete live at the Plugged Nickle if you want to hear a band go from
fairly straight ahead jazz to free form explorations in the space of
two days! The Arcana disc is,however, the result of only one meeting
of the players involved.

Scott.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:40:47 -0500 (EST)

I don't see the connection.

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> A little trivia about Torture Garden - Zorn says that the album is his
> version of the Webern "Bagatelles".
>
> MRD
>
>
> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
> http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 26 Feb 1997 10:35:58 -0700

daniel:

> I don't see the connection.
>
> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> > A little trivia about Torture Garden - Zorn says that the album is his
> > version of the Webern "Bagatelles".

presumably JZ fashioned these vignettes to say everything he wanted to say
in a tiny space, with no wasted gestures, like Webern did with the 6
Bagatelles. For compilation tapes, I've often used the 6 bagatelles
alternating with the shortest Napalm Death pieces (clearly another
inspiration for TG) and the juxtapostion has a remarkable logic, to me at
least.
--



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 11:52:01 -0800

At 12:17 PM 2/26/97 +0000, Scott Russell wrote:
>I take it everyone has heard that Tony Williams died?
>
>Even though he is not directly involved in the music we discuss here,
>it's still a sad day indeed. I reckon he was one of the great
>drummers. I saw him at The Glasgow Jazz Festival a few years ago and
>he was still playing up a storm.
>
>A great loss.
>
>I know I'll miss him.

It is very sad indeed.

_Arcana 2_ will be released as a tribute album to Tony Williams.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "ALAN E. KAYSER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 17:38:36 -0500

Scott Russell wrote:

  I take it everyone has heard that Tony Williams died?

  Even though he is not directly involved in the music we discuss
  here,
  it's still a sad day indeed. I reckon he was one of the great
  drummers. I saw him at The Glasgow Jazz Festival a few years ago and

  he was still playing up a storm.

  A great loss.

  I know I'll miss him.

  Scott Russell.

 Scott
Check out the Tony Williams Lifetime CDá"Emergency."  This is the
original jazz-rock band, featuring John McLaughlin and Larry Young. It
was 2 LPs of fuzz guitar and post Jimmy Smith organ via Coltrane.   I
remember hearing this for the first time when it originally was released
way back when.  It blew me away.  Thought WHATáISáTHIS!  The vocals by
Tony are really dated, but it sure brings back memories.  This was a
great band, and I understand Verve has just released a compilation 2
CD.  Tony never quite matched his early work, nor was there anything in
this genre that matched the energy of Emergency.
His passing is indeed sad, especially at a relatively early age.
Alan E Kayser
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bruce Morris CDs
Date: 26 Feb 1997 20:04:46 -0500 (EST)

>On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 19:30:31 +0800  Jan-Wen Lu wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've been trying very hard to find Butch Morris' "Current Trends In Racism
>> In Modern America" and "Homeing" CD's. Both released by Sound Aspect Sound
>> in Germany. Does anyone know where to mail-order them? Or they were out of
>> print? Thanks.
>

Cadence (http://cadencebuilding.com) lists Homeing but not Current Trends.
They also carry the individual Testament disks on New World.

On now: Albert Marcoeur, Sports & Percussions

--
Caleb T. Deupree
[e-mail]
;; For every complex question there is a simple answer.
;; And it is wrong.  (H. L. Mencken)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DANIEL BITTON <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 20:32:19 -0500 (EST)

How did he die? I don't think he was very old, was he?

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From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 26 Feb 1997 22:33:45 -0400

That's a great summary, John! Thanks for enlightening us all.

Matt


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
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From: Brian & Sharon Beuchaw <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 26 Feb 1997 22:03:14 -0600 (CST)

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, DANIEL BITTON wrote:

> How did he die? I don't think he was very old, was he?

He was 51 and died of a heart attack following gall bladder surgery.....
:-(

cya
brian



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From: Jan-Wen Lu <[e-mail]>
Subject: More new CD's with Otomo Yoshihide
Date: 27 Feb 1997 13:54:36 +0800

Hi,

For those fans of Otomo Yoshihide. Here are two new CD's with him.

1.Novo Tono/Panorama Paradise  (Alida/Creativeman Disc, CMDD-000038, Japan)
  -a long time project with Phew(Anton Fier's Dreamspeed), Seiichi Yamamoto(
   Boredoms, Omoide Hatoba, Live Under the Sky, etc.), Otomo Yoshihide, Etoh
   Naoko, Yusuke Nishimura and Masahiro Uemura(Ground Zero, P.O.N.).

2.Cult Junk Cafe  (Gentle Giant Records, ggcd002, U.S.A.)
  -a Japanese-American band with Kyota Yoshigami, Yasuhiro Ohtani, Kazutaka
   Sakamoto, Tsuguto Tsunoda and Michael Hartman. Otomo plays handmade
   guitar and 6-string bass on seven tracks.

Also the Bob Ostertag/Otomo Yoshihide "Twins" CD(Creativeman Disc) and
Bloodbath "Live" CD. Details and review can be found from Wire magazine and
update catalog of ReR Megacorp.

--
Jan-Wen Lu  E-Mail address: [e-mail]

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From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 27 Feb 1997 10:20:06 +0000

ALAN E. KAYSER wrote:

> Check out the Tony Williams Lifetime CDá"Emergency."  This is the
> original jazz-rock band, featuring John McLaughlin and Larry Young. It was 2 LPs of fuzz guitar and post Jimmy Smith organ via Coltrane.   I remember hearing this for the first time when it originally was released way back when.  It blew me away.  Thought WHATáISáTHIS!  The vocals by Tony are really dated, but it sure brings back memories.  This was a great band, and I understand Verve has just released a compilation 2 CD.  Tony never quite matched his early work, nor was there anything in this genre that matched the energy of Emergency.

Thanks Alan

I have a copy of Emergency and I agree, it's furious, churning stuff.
The vocals are pretty funny, I like them for their 'cheese' value. Of
course I couldn't be without any of the Miles albums Tony plays on, or
his early Bluenotes, Lifetime and Spring. I haven't heard too many of
his later solo albums but he did turn in a good appearance with John
McLaughlin and Jack Bruce on McLaughlin's 'Electric Guitarist' album.
It's a really funky power trio workout with added 'cheesy' vocals by
all three. As far as anything matching Lifetime's power, well I don't
know if I quite agree, I think the first Mahavishnu album is pretty
scorching but I don't want to start a raving fued about jazz-fusion of
all things!

Scott Russell.

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From: NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier <[e-mail]>
Subject: Joey Baron, Barondown in Paris
Date: 27 Feb 1997 12:48:57 +0100

Hi,

Yesterday, it was the grand opening of a French jazz festival "Banlieue Bleue"
near Paris.

Barondown was the first band and, as usual, Joey was GREAT !
He was sharp, smooth and very creative.

Only, one problem : the next band (main band) was Abbey Lincoln Quartet
(they are on Verve). It is classical jazz with a singer. The poor drummer
(Aaron Walker) seemed so slow and ... ridiculous. He looked like a heavy
metal drummer and I hated this "too-classical" band. Jazz snob eat shit !
Rule 1 : "Never play drums after Joey Baron" !

I already saw Barondown in New York, last year at the What is jazz? festival
at the knit'. The trombone was not the same : I think it was Steve Swell like
on the CD "Crackshot". Yesterday, it was Josuah Roseman.

Personally, I prefer Steve Swell but Joey said "he is not in the band anymore".
Do you know the reason why ?
Do you have some news of Steve Swell ? What is he doing right now ?

Joey Baron also said that a solo drum album was on the way.
I am waiting for this !!

French fans, don't worry :
Joey said he will be back with Masada
the 8th of April !! So cooooolll !!


Olivier


ps: Thanks, Mister Tony Williams


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From: "R. Edward Stuart" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #65
Date: 27 Feb 1997 10:54:13 -0500

Yo,

I've been despriately looking for Anthony Braxton's _Dortmund Quartet_ on
Hat Art.  This disk is OOP but might be sitting in a local Borders or Tower.
So if any of you people see this disk please drop me a line.

Thanx,
Ed Stuart
[e-mail]


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From: "M.Ho" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joey Baron, Barondown in Paris
Date: 27 Feb 1997 10:46:06 EST

>
> Personally, I prefer Steve Swell but Joey said "he is not in the band anymore".
> Do you know the reason why ?
> Do you have some news of Steve Swell ? What is he doing right now ?
>
I saw Steve Swell lead a group up in New York back in October at the
Internet Cafe and they were great.  Unfortunatly, I was one of about
three people there.  I don't know who the other musicians were but
there was a man on reeds (sax, bass clarinet, flute) and a wonderful
drummer.  I didnt get a chance to talk to him although I wanted to
because that was the night Chamber Masada played the Knitting Factory
and I had to run out early.

By the way, Tim Berne's Bloodcount is playing in Richmond, VA at the
Biograph with Hotel X on March 19.

-Mary


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From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joey Baron, Barondown in Paris
Date: 27 Feb 1997 22:36:38 -0500 (EST)



On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, NGUYEN VAN TAN Olivier wrote:

> Only, one problem : the next band (main band) was Abbey Lincoln Quartet
> (they are on Verve). It is classical jazz with a singer. The poor drummer
> (Aaron Walker) seemed so slow and ... ridiculous. He looked like a heavy
> metal drummer and I hated this "too-classical" band. Jazz snob eat shit !

And what should avant-garde snobs eat? :^)))

Chris Hamilton



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From: Friedrich Feger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada in France at 8th of April?
Date: 28 Feb 1997 11:07:00 +0100

hi everybody,

does anyone know if Masada plays anywhere else in Europe, especially if
they play in Germany? I've never seen Masada on stage and kind of tired of
this state...

Thanks in advance,
Fritz
Fritz Feger
[e-mail]

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From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject:       Tony Williams
Date: 28 Feb 1997 13:58:57 GMT0BST

Tony Williams R.I.P.

Actually, one of Williams first LP appearances, Jackie McLean's One
Step Beyond (Blue Note) was pretty far out.  Williams' own albums for
Blue Note, Lifetime and Spring, are even further out.  All before he
was 20 years old.  But he was also pretty eclectic, and had a real
love for good pop music (The Beatles).  So I don't think we should
paint him as an old fuddy-duddy.

Sean.

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From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tony Williams
Date: 28 Feb 1997 16:21:25 +0000

DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> Tony Williams R.I.P.
>
> Actually, one of Williams first LP appearances, Jackie McLean's One
> Step Beyond (Blue Note) was pretty far out.  Williams' own albums for
> Blue Note, Lifetime and Spring, are even further out.  All before he
> was 20 years old.  But he was also pretty eclectic, and had a real
> love for good pop music (The Beatles).  So I don't think we should
> paint him as an old fuddy-duddy.
>

Sean

I certainly had no intention of suggesting Williams was a fuddy-duddy.
I reckon he was one of the greats of modern jazz, it's just that his
later work didn't seem to match the work he did on Lifetime and Spring
(my 2 favourite Williams albums by the way), or any of the classic
Miles recordings.

The Glasgow Herald quoted him as saying he found drumming easy and
that studying composition was where his interests lay. Perhaps his
choice of idiom is what put me off the later work. I heard a couple of
his 80's Blue Note discs and, though the drumming is superlative, I
thought they were a bit too neo-classical in that Wynton Marsalis way.
I'd like to have seen him expand his choice of players and styles. The
direction of the Arcana disc, with Derek Bailey, could have yielded
something tremendous.

Scott Russell

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From: Anthony Saunders <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Torture Garden etc
Date: 28 Feb 1997 13:37:19 -0500 (EST)



On Tue, 25 Feb 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> The tape & lp versions of torture garden only have half the songs that
> the cd t.g. does.  Grand Guignol has the supplemental tracks.  The
> gangster album has some, but not all of the additional tracks.
>
> Patrice

 I'd have to disagree with that, the tape version of torture garden that I
played till it broke has exactly the same songs on it as my cd version.
And Grand Guignol has most of T.G., and Gangster (as we seem to call it)
has the rest of the songs.

 Torture garden was my first Zorn also, Painkiller's Buried Secrets is my
fav., but I haven't heard much...

 anthony