ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.9601

Internet Message Format | 1996-01-31 | 273KB

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: workin on a website
Date: 11 Jan 1996 09:02:54 -0800

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:03:56 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Greetings everyone.  I'd like to announce that i've set up the
> infrastructure for a Zorn website at
> http://users.aol.com/froederick/jz.html
>
> You'll need Netscape 2.0 until I make it backwards compatible for other
> browsers.  There's almost nothing there right now, just the format, a few
> links, and some samples.  I'm under three feet of snow in New Jersey, so I
> couldn't get to my scanner at work to start getting artwork up.
>
> If anyone would like to contribute any ideas, links, or text for the page,
> let me know.   For now I'm just going to try to put up scans of artwork and
> audio samples from the Zorn CD's that I have.  This should keep me busy for
> awhile.

If I have any, you will find then at:

    http://www.nwu.edu:80/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/

> I hope no one in Mr. Zorn's circle will be offended by my flagrant
> disregard of copyright laws.  I'm putting these pages together solely for
> the purpose of promoting JZ's music on the net-  being able to peruse the
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If this is really the only reason (I insist on *really*), why don't you put
all that stuff on the WNUR-FM JazzWeb?

I am not against people creating their own page but I just wonder where
it is gonna stop:

    - I have a computer and an Internet access
    - I read HTML FOR DUMMIES
    - I have ten records by John Zorn

    --> I create my own John Zorn site

> artwork and listen to a few fuzzy music samples from the CD's will
> hopefully encourage people to go out and buy the originals.

{yawn]

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lori Taffet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Me Thinks More Zorn is Good Thing!
Date: 11 Jan 1996 14:29:32 -0600

You know- I think the site suggested (the www.nwu.edu.blah.blah.blah),
although informative, is BORING (i.e. yawn) and I would be extremely excited
to see more Zorn on the web, and any Zorn will do. Graphics, samples, and
whatever stupid/intelligent/irrelevant/revelatory/crass/confusing comments
you see fit Eric, I'll certainly go and check it out. I like seeing what
people create when they have a computer, a dumb ole reference book, and an
interest...Please, don't stop!

                                             [yipa]
                                                        Lori
!@#$%^&*()!@#$%^&*()!@#$%^&*()



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "emud" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Me Thinks More Zorn is Good Thing!
Date: 11 Jan 1996 13:23:45 PDT

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Me Thinks More Zorn is Good Thing!
Date: 11 Jan 1996 14:03:15 -0800

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:29:32 -0600  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>
> You know- I think the site suggested (the www.nwu.edu.blah.blah.blah),
> although informative, is BORING (i.e. yawn) and I would be extremely excited
               ^^^^^^

With people like you, can we expect this situation to improve?

> to see more Zorn on the web, and any Zorn will do. Graphics, samples, and
> whatever stupid/intelligent/irrelevant/revelatory/crass/confusing comments
> you see fit Eric, I'll certainly go and check it out. I like seeing what
> people create when they have a computer, a dumb ole reference book, and an
> interest...Please, don't stop!

Now, can you tell me what prevent this person to take advantage of an
available site to put his exciting stuff on it? I have some answers to
that but they have little to do with altruism...

If Joe Germuska says: "Sorry, I have no time to put your stuff on the WNUR
site", then I completely agree with the idea of creating your own site (what
a thrill!!!!). Joe has always been supportive of putting everything you
give him on the site.

I have just seen so many individual actions more based on lack of knowledge
than serious evaluation first of what is available. Maybe the poster did
his homework. If it is the case, I hope he will accept my excuses.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn at Knitting Factory box?
Date: 11 Jan 1996 20:35:54 -0500

Whatever happened to the boxset that Knitting Factory was supposed to
release?  It was to draw from the big birthday bash in 94.

Lang Thompson


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonathan FELDMAN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Me Thinks More Zorn is Good Thing!
Date: 12 Jan 1996 00:12:55 -0500 (EST)

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Now, can you tell me what prevent this person to take advantage of an
> available site to put his exciting stuff on it? I have some answers to
> that but they have little to do with altruism...
>
> If Joe Germuska says: "Sorry, I have no time to put your stuff on the WNUR
> site", then I completely agree with the idea of creating your own site (what
> a thrill!!!!). Joe has always been supportive of putting everything you
> give him on the site.
>
> I have just seen so many individual actions more based on lack of knowledge
> than serious evaluation first of what is available. Maybe the poster did
> his homework. If it is the case, I hope he will accept my excuses.
>

It seems to me that if a site has already been set up which is devoted to
jazz artists in which a John Zorn site already exists that we should make
an effort to use this site.  Why bother duplicating what has been done,
and why not add to it?  The WNUR site is superb and I am sure they would
be happy to expand with more worthy information.

jonathan feldman        [e-mail]
                http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~jonathan

"All these purists are walking around talking about how electrical
instruments will ruin music.  Bad music is what will ruin music, not
the instruments musicians choose to play."    - Miles Davis






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (James L. Kirchmer)
Subject: Re: workin on a website
Date: 11 Jan 1996 12:01:08 -0800

At 09:02 AM 1/11/96 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>I am not against people creating their own page but I just wonder where
>it is gonna stop:
>    - I have a computer and an Internet access
>    - I read HTML FOR DUMMIES
>    - I have ten records by John Zorn
>    --> I create my own John Zorn site

>> artwork and listen to a few fuzzy music samples from the CD's will
>> hopefully encourage people to go out and buy the originals.

>{yawn]
>    Patrice.

This commentary makes me yawn a hell of a lot more than reading the
original post does.  Arrogant BULLSH*T is boring as hell... ;)

'nuff said,
James Kirchmer- (who is now, for the FIRST time, contemplating
                       putting together a website)
....hmmmm....maybe I'll devote it to makin' fun of internet 'snobs'...
I'll call it the "Internet snobs eat shit" page....that sounds good!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David A. Craig" <[e-mail]>
Subject: last straw
Date: 12 Jan 1996 05:08:39 -0800

Stupid flame war-lett sufficient to inspire unsubscription.

bye, kids!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn at Knitting Factory box?
Date: 12 Jan 1996 08:51:08 -0800

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:35:54 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Whatever happened to the boxset that Knitting Factory was supposed to
> release?  It was to draw from the big birthday bash in 94.

93, you mean.

I doubt it will ever be released on Knitting Factory. I just got
their great 96 catalog (about 30 upcoming releases) and not the
slightest word about it.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: 1996 Knitting Factory announced releases
Date: 12 Jan 1996 09:12:11 -0800

    Just received the very exciting (and well designed) 1996 catalog from
the Knitting Factory and was amazed to see about 30 new records! Here is
the list (but people interested should write them to get the catalog).

    Patrice.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Arto Lindsay

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-187 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - MENAGERIE DREAMS: Thomas Chapin Trio

  Thomas Chapin: alto, mezzo-soprano, baritone saxophone, flute; Mario Pavone:
  bass; Michael Sarin: drums; John Zorn: alto; Vernon Frazer: voice.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-167 (CD)

  Note: release planned in January 1996.

======================================================================

*** - TRIO + STRINGS: Thomas Chapin

  Thomas Chapin; Michael Sarin; string section (cello, viola, violin).

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-176 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - HARLEM BETRAYED: Charles Gayle

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-177 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - THE GIFT OF TONGUES: William Hooker, Lee Ranaldo, Zeena Parkins

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-179 (CD)

  Note: release planned in February 1996.

======================================================================

*** - MEDITATIONS: Prima Materia with Rashied Ali

  First recording of this composition since Trane's death in 1967.

  Rashied Ali: drums; Greg Murphy: piano; etc.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-180 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - BELLS: Prima Materia with Rashied Ali

  Arrangements of Ayler's music.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-190 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - LOVE IN OUTER SPACE: Myth Science

  They play the music of Sun Ra.

  Reuben Radding: bass; Briggan Krauss: alto; Anthony Coleman: organ; Ed Ware:
  drums; Tim Otto: sax.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-183 (CD)

  Note: release planned in February 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Don Byron Live

    Recorded live at the Knitting Factory, NYC on January 6 & 7, 1996

  Don Byron's newest group.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-191 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - BY ANY MEANS: Rashied Ali, Charles Gayle, William Parker

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-198 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Steven Bernstein's Sex Mob

  Steven Bernstein: slide trumpet; Briggan Krauss: alto; Don Falzone: bass;
  Kenny Wollesen: drums; Peck Allmond: sax.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-190 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Andrea Parkins

  Andrea Parkins: piano, accordion; Briggan Krauss: alto; Kenny Wollesen:
  drums.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-185 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Briggan Krauss

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-178 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - SUNRISE: Anthony Coleman

  Music to accompany the silent film SUNRISE (by F.W. Murnau).

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFW-1002+ (HDCD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.
  Note: HDCD is a new format that combines a 2 1/2 hours video format with a
  regular 70 minute CD.

======================================================================

*** - THE GOLEM: Gary Lucas

  Music to accompany the silent film THE GOLEM (by Paul Wegener).

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFW-1001+ (HDCD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.
  Note: HDCD is a new format that combines a 2 1/2 hours video format with a
  regular 70 minute CD.

======================================================================

*** - INVOCATIONS: Mark Dresser

  Live, multi-tracked, and solo recordings.

  Mark Dresser: bass.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-173 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - 4TH TIME BROKE: Suck Pretty

  Chris Cochrane; Dudley Saunders; Ed Ware; Dom Richards.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-181 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - MUSIC FOR ALLAH: Joe Gallant

  Arrangement of the 1975 classic Grateful Dead album BLUES FOR ALLAH for jazz
  orchestra to mark the 20th anniversary of its release.

  Joe Gallant: bass; Tom Constanten: keyboards; Bob Brelove; David Gans; Steve
  Swell; Gary Lambert; Dave Tronzo; etc.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-188 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - THE LAND OF THE LOST DWARVES: X-Legged Sally

  Peter Vermeersch; Paul Belgrado; Pierre Vervlosem; Danny Van Hoeck; Peter
  Vandenberghe; Bart Maris; Michel Mast.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-182 (CD)

  Note: release planned in January 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Kiss My Jazz

  Rudy Trouve: guitar; etc.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-196 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - BEING VISITED: Laurie Galluccio

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-173 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - CONSENSUS: New And Used

  Dave Douglas: trumpet; Kermit Driscoll: bass; Mark Feldman: violin; Tom
  Rainey: drums; Andy Laster: alto, baritone saxophone.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-163 (CD)

  Note: release planned in January 1996.

======================================================================

*** - ???: Hasidic New Wave

  Frank London: trumpet; Greg Wall: sax; Bentsi Gafni: bass; Shlomo Deshet:
  drums.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-192 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================

*** - WHAT IS JAZZ? 1996: various artists

  Compilation featuring bands appearing at the 1996 What is Jazz? Festival.

    1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFWCD-195 (CD)

  Note: release planned in 1996.

======================================================================


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: last straw
Date: 12 Jan 1996 09:01:35 -0800

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 05:08:39 -0800  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> Stupid flame war-lett sufficient to inspire unsubscription.

Which proves how serious the subscribtion was :-).

>
> bye, kids!
  ^^^

Are we gonna miss a key contributor?

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Wittmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: Flames, music, RESPECT!!
Date: 12 Jan 1996 13:14:04 -0500

Now that the list has changed hands, I'd like to point out one little thing
about the old list and a HUGE change that has already cropped up in the new
one. It used to be a digest. That meant that you read ONCE every few days,
got a good dose of Zorn-etc. and then got back to the work you SHOULD have
been doing anyway. Well. Not anymore. Now we get bombarded by small
comments, and it's not as easy to deal with.

Is it possible to return to the digest form? Seriously, having a flame war
start up in the first few days of the new format is ludicrous, silly, and
annoying. I won't say anything personal here (after all, this is not a
flame), but in general, I had thought we were all a bit more respectful of
the other. Etiquette is only what we make of it, read Miss Manners to learn
how to behave on the Web and the Net. Sheesh.

What I would hope is that we could return to a more compact digest form,
where two things made it appealing: 1) easier to keep track of, 2) seems to
prevent flame wars and silly behavior by mature humans. Flaming is noise,
people; we can all read each other's email addresses and respond on a
personal level if need be, let's respond in respectful tones when it's a
public forum. Is that possible, even if we don't go back to the digest form?
Thanks in advance....

And on the topic of the web site itself....If someone wants to make a web
site, more power to them, isn't the point of the web a bit of anarchy and
personal opinion? Would it be unreasonable to ask WNUR to make a link to
this site? Doubt it. Must it be boring? That's up to the person who makes
the site. Mode of presentation says a lot, isn't that partially what Zorn is
about?

I'm trying to stay off my high-horse here, and not yell at anyone, so I'll
reiterate my main point (and I said this a few months ago, too): be nice to
each other. We're part of the Zorn list to read about Zorn-etc-MUSIC and not
to read about each other's personal attacks, okay? Let's get back to music,
that's what it's all about. And let everyone appreciate music in their own
way. Thanks for listening.

Michael Wittmann
===============================================
Michael Wittmann    [e-mail]
Physics Education Research Group, UMCP
office: Physics 0220    tel: [phone]
===============================================
   Form ohne Inhalt, Inhalt trotz der Form
=============Stil-Freiheit=====================



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Norman Yamada)
Subject: Wittman's idea
Date: 12 Jan 1996 14:03:47 -0500

I agree. Digest form is much better for the list....


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: Flames, music, RESPECT!!
Date: 12 Jan 1996 13:26:02 GMT

you can get the list in digest form, if you'd like.  the instructions are in
the welcome letter. if you can't find it, i could dig mine up.

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Wittman's idea
Date: 12 Jan 1996 16:24:54 -0800 (PST)

    [if this is the second time you have seen
    this email message, please drop me a note.]

Norman Yamada, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>Digest form is much better for the list....

    Several people have emailed me privately
    wishing there was a way to receive the zorn-list
    in digest form, not realizing that it already
    exists.

    I want to reiterate that you currently have the
    option of subscribing to a digest form of the
    zorn-list.

    To change your subscription, please send an
    email message to

        [e-mail]

    (from the computer account you want to subscribe)
    with a message containing the following lines
    of text

        unsubscribe zorn-list
        subscribe zorn-list-digest
        end

    The contents of the Subject: line is ignored.

    The list currently has 60 subscribers to the digest
    and 355 subscribers getting it "real-time."

    If there is anything else I can do, don't hesitate
    to email me.

        cheers,
        mike rizzi
        [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Marlin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 1996 Knitting Factory announced releases
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:02:29 -0800 (PST)

Hello, I'm relatively new to this list.  Could someone tell me the adress
(email or regular) and or 800 number for receiving a Knitting Factory
catalog?  And/or a DIW catalog.  I have a hard time, even here in
Seattle, getting Zorn and related releases sometimes and would like to be
able to mail order.  Any help is appreciated.  You can email me directly
so as to avoid alerting the thousands of people who read this list!

Thanks in advance.

Mike Marlin
Seattle, Wa
([e-mail])


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 1996 Knitting Factory announced releases
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:07:11 -0800

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:02:29 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Hello, I'm relatively new to this list.  Could someone tell me the adress
> (email or regular) and or 800 number for receiving a Knitting Factory
> catalog?  And/or a DIW catalog.  I have a hard time, even here in
> Seattle, getting Zorn and related releases sometimes and would like to be
> able to mail order.  Any help is appreciated.  You can email me directly
> so as to avoid alerting the thousands of people who read this list!

        Knitting Factory
        74 Leonard Street
        New York, NY 10013
        Tel: [phone]
        Fax: [phone]
        www: http://www.knittingfactory.com/

For DIW, you might try their distributor in the US:

        Sphere Marketing & Distribution
        Cargo Bldg 80 Rm 2A
        Jamaica, NY 11430
        Tel: [phone]

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: BOUNCE zorn-list: Non-member submission from [Steve Pescatore <[e-mail]>] (fwd)
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:03:22 -0800 (PST)

    [Another lost mail...found.]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Pescatore <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn discography
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:03:22 -0800 (PST)

it's been a while since i've seen a good, complete zorn discography, and
my current one is a year or so old. does anyone out there in zorn-land
have a recent one, or (even better) is there a good RECENT one online
somewhere.

thanks,
- --steve.

please take these riduculous flames, etc, bullshit to usenet and stop
clogging up my damn inbox!!!

steve pescatore            "Sleep?... Isn't that some completely
[e-mail]        inadaquate substitute for caffeine?"
[e-mail]        --programmer's saying via "Wizardry Compiled"
        http://www.cs.unc.edu/~pescator/index.html


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trenkel David William <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wittman's idea
Date: 12 Jan 1996 18:29:15 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Norman Yamada wrote:

> I agree. Digest form is much better for the list....
>
I disagree! I much prefer getting messages singly, it makes it easier to
participate in the discussion. How about making digest form an option for
subscribers who want it?

Zorn content: I just got "Harras" by Zorn, Derek Bailey, and William
Parker. It's great! Zorn sounds a little off-mic and thin, but Bailey is
in terrific form. But there's one quirk. The 3rd, and last piece, ends
very suddenly, at a very intense moment, with what sounds like like a
choppy tape edit. Then there's about 5min of silence, then a beautiful
Bailey solo for about 5 minutes. I remember the Bailey/Ruins disc ending
similarly. What's with this?

Later,
Dave Trenkel


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: 1996 Knitting Factory announced releases
Date: 12 Jan 1996 23:39:29 -0500

I just thought this was interesting-  I got the new Knitting Factory catalog
around Jan. 4th or 5th, and they had a listing for the new Don Byron live
cd (KFW 191).  It says in the caption "...Don's newest group recorded live
at the Knitting Factory on January 6th and 7th, 1996.."  The show
hadn't even happened yet!!  Aren't they jumping the gun a little?
I almost went to that show, but then I opted for the music of Micki Katz.
I just hope all of their planned releases happen.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: [none]
Date: 12 Jan 1996 16:57:34 EWT

Hello. This is my first post to the list, though I've been a reader for
some time. I'd like to suggest - as a possible respite from flame wars,
etc. - some commentary on two recent releases: Erik Friedlander's
"Chimera" and Dave Douglas's "Constellations". I first heard Friedlander
on Marty Ehrlich's latest and was blown away. "Chimera", particularly
the opening track and the title track, is well worth checking out. But
I can't get enough of DD's Tiny Bell Trio - the new disc on Hat Art is
tremendous. Great tunes from Douglas, great playing all around (Jim
Black is a marvel), and a burning cover of Herbie Nichols' "The Gig".
Any comments?
Jason Bivins


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jonathan FELDMAN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wittman's idea
Date: 12 Jan 1996 16:09:04 -0500 (EST)

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Norman Yamada wrote:

> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:03:47 -0500
> From: Norman Yamada <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Wittman's idea
>
> I agree. Digest form is much better for the list....
>

This listserv is set up to do this\1
Here's an exerpt from the listserv guidelines message:

                                    If you prefer to get
        zorn list mail bundled in digests (like the old list),
        then send mail to [e-mail] with

                unsubscribe zorn-list
                subscribe zorn-list-digest
                end

Hope this helps.

jonathan feldman        [e-mail]
                http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~jonathan

"All these purists are walking around talking about how electrical
instruments will ruin music.  Bad music is what will ruin music, not
the instruments musicians choose to play."    - Miles Davis







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Strauss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Flames, music, RESPECT!!
Date: 12 Jan 1996 13:42:52 -0500 (EST)

I'd like to second the motion to restore the Zorn List to digest form.

DS


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: precisions concerning few Zorn questions
Date: 12 Jan 1996 11:29:48 -0800

    1/ LENG TCH'E is *only* Naked City (no Melvins and no Patton)

       (I am of course talking about the record)

     2/ There won't be any West Coast Masada (the formation with Ben
       Goldberg, etc); don't know why (which is kind of sad because
       many people are raving about this band)

    3/ Sounds like FILMWORKS III is not out yet (if it is, then Zorn
       has no clue of what it contains :-)

    4/ Zorn did not approach Chadbourne to record BOOK OF HEADS

    5/ The music from THE ELEGANT SPANKING movie should be on FILMWORKS
       III (in fact, the music of RED BIRD is totally derived from two
       minutes of the total 30 mn music of THE ELEGANT SPANKING)

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Wittman's idea
Date: 12 Jan 1996 11:48:53 -0800 (PST)

Norman Yamada, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>I agree. Digest form is much better for the list....

    Several people have emailed me privately
    wishing there was a way to receive the zorn-list
    in digest form, not realizing that it already
    exists.

    I want to reiterate that you currently have the
    option of subscribing to a digest form of the
    zorn-list.

    To change your subscription, please send an
    email message to

        [e-mail]

    (from the computer account you want to subscribe)
    with a message containing the following lines
    of text

        unsubscribe zorn-list
        subscribe zorn-list-digest
        end

    The contents of the Subject: line is ignored.

    The list currently has 60 subscribers to the digest
    and 355 subscribers getting it "real-time."

    If there is anything else I can do, don't hesitate
    to email me.

        mike rizzi
        [e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Flames, music, RESPECT!!
Date: 12 Jan 1996 11:42:20 -0800

On Fri, 12 Jan 96 13:14:04 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Now that the list has changed hands, I'd like to point out one little thing
> about the old list and a HUGE change that has already cropped up in the new
> one. It used to be a digest. That meant that you read ONCE every few days,
> got a good dose of Zorn-etc. and then got back to the work you SHOULD have
> been doing anyway. Well. Not anymore. Now we get bombarded by small
> comments, and it's not as easy to deal with.

If I keep my mouth shut, everything should go back to normal :-). And people
who know me know that I get very tired very fast and fall asleep for a long
time.

> Is it possible to return to the digest form? Seriously, having a flame war
> start up in the first few days of the new format is ludicrous, silly, and
> annoying. I won't say anything personal here (after all, this is not a
> flame), but in general, I had thought we were all a bit more respectful of
> the other. Etiquette is only what we make of it, read Miss Manners to learn
> how to behave on the Web and the Net. Sheesh.

This little excess (mainly under my responsability) should not change the
actual status of the list.

Penalizing everybody because of the excess of a few (oups! I should use the
singular here, I guess) is not what I call a move toward a better future
(now we can argue if flaming the way I did is such a move :-).

> What I would hope is that we could return to a more compact digest form,
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please not!

> where two things made it appealing: 1) easier to keep track of, 2) seems to
> prevent flame wars and silly behavior by mature humans. Flaming is noise,
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This list is fairly small. We should take advantage of that to know each
other better.

In my case, because I have no intent of having a web page (to show how
uncool I am), now people at least know how obnoxious I can be; I am sure
this might help them in the future :-).

> people; we can all read each other's email addresses and respond on a
> personal level if need be, let's respond in respectful tones when it's a
> public forum. Is that possible, even if we don't go back to the digest form?
> Thanks in advance....
>
> And on the topic of the web site itself....If someone wants to make a web
> site, more power to them, isn't the point of the web a bit of anarchy and
> personal opinion? Would it be unreasonable to ask WNUR to make a link to
> this site? Doubt it. Must it be boring? That's up to the person who makes
> the site. Mode of presentation says a lot, isn't that partially what Zorn is
> about?
>
> I'm trying to stay off my high-horse here, and not yell at anyone, so I'll
> reiterate my main point (and I said this a few months ago, too): be nice to
> each other. We're part of the Zorn list to read about Zorn-etc-MUSIC and not
> to read about each other's personal attacks, okay? Let's get back to music,
> that's what it's all about. And let everyone appreciate music in their own
> way. Thanks for listening.

Just a last comment: shaking things a little bit should not bother people
so much, specially when the list is about somebody as controversial and
outspoken like Zorn... Should we be all cute and nice and carefull about the
choice of any of our words?

As far as I know, a flame was has never killed anybody.

    Patrice (who apologizes for being rude in a situation which could
      have been handled in much nicer way).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Subharmonic
Date: 13 Jan 1996 07:38:14 -0500

Does anyone have even a vague idea of how many Subharmonic releases there
are? I've been trying to complete my collection(like that will ever happen!).
Here's what I have:

Akasha: Divination(2-cd set)
Divination: ambient dub vol.1
Harris/Laswell: Sominific Flux
Sharp/Laswell: Visitation
Laswell/Inoue: Cymatic Scan
Laswell/Namlook: Psychonavigation
Lull: Cold Summer
Painkiller: Execution Ground (2-cd set)
Painkiller: Execution Ground (Marblized 2-cd set)
Praxis: Metatron
Praxis: Sacrafist
Valis i: Destruction of Syntax
Web: Web

     Anybody know what i'm missing? If music stores would just stick them all
in the Laswell bin instead of sending me on a scavenger hunt, things would be
much easier.
Also, Hey Patrice, are you still doing the Zorn Discography? I'd love to get
an updated copy if possible. That Discography is simply awesome, as is the
Horvitz one. .
Thanks---Jim


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Eric Marko)
Subject: [none]
Date: 13 Jan 1996 14:31:51 -0500

<<Patrice (who apologizes for being rude in a situation which could have
been handled in much nicer way).>>

Apology accepted, though I'd still like to dedicate "Perfume of a Critics
Burning Flesh" to the master of the (yawn).

I'd also like to say that although I really don't enjoy flame wars, I do
enjoy being offended, so Patrice, don't go changin',  and keep up the fine
work you do on keeping us informed about all things Zorn.

BTW, my Zorn page, I think, is coming along nicely.  It's still at

http://users.aol.com/froederick/jz.html

I've recently added some artwork from torture garden, spillane, and
absinthe, and more is on the way.  Feel free to send me comments or
criticism.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Me <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic
Date: 13 Jan 1996 13:49:07 -0600 (CST)

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> Does anyone have even a vague idea of how many Subharmonic releases there
> are? I've been trying to complete my collection(like that will ever happen!).
> Here's what I have:

Subharmonic Catalog

26617-7001-2 - Divination - Volume 1: Ambient Dub
26617-7002-2 - Praxis - Sacrifist
26617-7003-2 - Divination - Volume 2:Ambient Dub - Dead Slow
26617-7004-2 - Chaos Face - Doom Ride
26617-7005-2 - Laswell and Namlook - Psychonavigation
26617-7006-2 - Sharp and Laswell - Visitation
26617-7007-2 - Praxis - Metatron
26617-7008-2 - Painkiller - Execution Ground
26617-7009-2 - Laswell and Tetsu - Cymatic Scan
26617-7010-2 - Laswell and Thaemlitz - Web
26617-7011-2 - Divination - Akasha
26617-7012-2 - Harris and Laswell - Somnific Flux
26617-7013-2 - Lull - Cold Summer
26617-7014-2 - Final - One
26617-7017-2 - Cypher 7 -Security
?????-4400-2 - Valis I : Destruction Of Syntax

Buy 'em when you see 'em, as these are all out of print now.

> Painkiller: Execution Ground (Marblized 2-cd set)

No difference between this one and the normal one.  Many Subharmonic
titles were issued in limited quantites with interesting types of
packaging by Rockit.

For more information on Subharmonic and other Laswell related stuff,
check out the excellent Axiom web site, http://www,hyperreal.com/axiom

Out 2 lunch with lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Harras - Derek Bailey recordings?
Date: 13 Jan 1996 17:07:53 -0500

Does anybody know of a release date for
Harras - Zorn/D.Bailey/W.Parker on Knitting Factory Works?

Does anybody know if the recording of Derek Bailey with
Bill Laswell & Tony Williams on DIW was ever released?



David Beardsley
[e-mail]

http://www.synet.net/sonic-boom/labels/immp.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  IMMP music recordings:
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  strange beautiful music.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK Music!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: a concert that's not at the Knitting Factory
Date: 14 Jan 1996 03:41:18 -0500

Ahhh, time to de-lurk.

I want to let ya'll know that on Feb 5&6 at New England Conservatory in
Boston, Mass there will be a John Zorn Festival. No, he won't be performing
but there will be countless concerts of his music. Lot's O' game pieces,
probably some Masada, and most importantly (to me, at least) my group, The
Prelapsarian Collective, will not only be playing a set of Naked City tunes,
but but we will also be PREMIERING 9 PIECES John wrote for N.C. but never
recorded.

I'm pretty sure this will be a free shindig, but don't quote me on that yet.
I'll post more info as I get it.

Mason Wendell

P.S. I feel the immediacy of the non-digest format brings a lot of life to
the list.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BOUNCE zorn-list: Non-member submission from [Steve Pescatore <[e-mail]>] (fwd)
Date: 14 Jan 1996 09:24:26 -0800

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:03:22 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>     [Another lost mail...found.]
>
> From: Steve Pescatore <[e-mail]>
> Subject: zorn discography
>
> it's been a while since i've seen a good, complete zorn discography, and
> my current one is a year or so old. does anyone out there in zorn-land
> have a recent one, or (even better) is there a good RECENT one online
> somewhere.

There is a "fresher" copy at the WNUR site:

  http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html

which is about 8 months old (May 1995).

Soon, I will send to this list the latest version (about 190 records listed).
Needless to say, it is huge (at least 4 mails with 64Kbyte).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harras - Derek Bailey recordings?
Date: 14 Jan 1996 09:57:52 -0800

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:07:53 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Does anybody know of a release date for
> Harras - Zorn/D.Bailey/W.Parker on Knitting Factory Works?

It was released late 95, but on Avant, not Knitting Factorry Works.

> Does anybody know if the recording of Derek Bailey with
> Bill Laswell & Tony Williams on DIW was ever released?

Wow! Never heard of such a project.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: last straw
Date: 14 Jan 1996 10:32:18 -0800

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:32:29 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> No, you won't because this list's subscribers seem unable
> to keep from clogging the bandwidth with B*LL SH*T instead
> of any contemplation of contemporary improvasatory
> information.

I doubt the charter of this list is "contemporary improvasatory
information".

Anyway, we are always happy to get new people who can elevate the
debate and are looking forward for your enlighting comments of the
aforementioned topic.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John McMahon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Anthony Braxton
Date: 14 Jan 1996 16:33:03 EST

Please excuse the following non-Zorn content. It occurs to me that people who
like John Zorn as much as I do might also share my enthusiasm for the work of
Anthony Braxton.

Is anyone on zorn-list aware of a list devoted
    (A) specifically to the work of Braxton, or
    (B) avant-garde "jazz"/music more generally,
or is zorn-list itself a proper place for such conversations?

I don't wish to water down the excellent focus of this discussion list, so
please reply to me off-list, unless those of you who've been here longer than
I have feel that this is an appropriate thread for the zornsters.

Cheers,
John McMahon
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trenkel David William <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Harras - Derek Bailey recordings?
Date: 14 Jan 1996 18:51:18 -0800 (PST)

On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> Does anybody know of a release date for
> Harras - Zorn/D.Bailey/W.Parker on Knitting Factory Works?
>
It's out. I got it last week and it's pretty great. However, it's on
Avant, not KFW



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (James L. Kirchmer)
Subject: Re: web stuff
Date: 14 Jan 1996 19:24:22 -0800

At 02:31 PM 1/13/96 -0500, Eric Marko wrote:

>I've recently added some artwork from torture garden, spillane, and
>absinthe, and more is on the way.  Feel free to send me comments or
>criticism.

Constructive, "matter-o-fact" criticism.  That's the key.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

I reacted negatively to Patrice's post because it wasn't "friendly"
criticism- it did not show the way to WEB enlightenment in a positive
manner.....but rather a "you should've done your homework, DUMMY"
kinda way.....(obvious to anyone who read the post)

Now, time to go check out this Zorn WNUR site!(finally)

Keep up the good info posts y'all- esp. Patrice, who definitely has
done his homework!  I've learned a lot on this list!
- -James





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Walsh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 10:16:00 PST

Hello,
   I've been looking at a few of the newer John Zorn / related CD's and
noticed on a few of the CD's the name Yamatanka Eye. Is this Yamatsuka Eye
or someone different. Also, if someone can give me (personal e-mail or on
the list, whichever you feel is more appropriate) a synopsis on the newer
Zorn recordings with Eye it would be much appreciated. I have liked most of
the stuff (Yamatsuka) Eye has been involved with (Naked City, Boredoms,
Omoide Hatoba), but was extremely displeased with the Mystic Fugu Orchestra
CD I bought a while ago. I listen to too many different styles of music and
Zorn has too much stuff (most being quite expensive) for me to run out and
buy everything, only to be dissapointed. So any help would be greatly
appreciated.
   Also, for those in the Philly area, Charles Gayle is scheduled to play
the Silk City Lounge (I believe) on March 1st. I plan on being there.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Oliver <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 11:44:46 -0700 (MST)

Actually Matt, it is the same guy. Yamataka and Yamatsuka are the same
person. He's the lead singer for the Japanese noise band the Boredoms and
sang (if you can call it that) on the Naked City lps and the new
collaboration "Nani Nani".

Brent Oliver


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: another lost message, found
Date: 15 Jan 1996 11:13:11 -0800 (PST)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christine Hibbard - Imonics Corporation <Christine Hibbard - Imonics Corporation"<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: last straw
Date: 15 Jan 1996 11:13:11 -0800 (PST)

No, you won't because this list's subscribers seem unable
to keep from clogging the bandwidth with B*LL SH*T instead
of any contemplation of contemporary improvasatory
information.

Christine Hibbard
[e-mail]

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 05:08:39 -0800  [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> >
> > Stupid flame war-lett sufficient to inspire unsubscription.
>
> Which proves how serious the subscribtion was :-).
>
> >
> > bye, kids!
>   ^^^
>
> Are we gonna miss a key contributor?
>
>     Patrice.
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Oliver <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 13:47:29 -0700 (MST)

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, m. rizzi wrote:

> Brent Oliver, the closet hipster sez:
> >
> >Actually Matt, it is the same guy. Yamataka and Yamatsuka are the same
>                                     ^^^^^^^^
>     nit pick: Eye's new name is Yamantaka (note the 'n')
>
>     see a past zorn digest for my story as to how Eye
>     and Zorn got their new names.
>
> >person. He's the lead singer for the Japanese noise band the Boredoms and
>
>     Boredoms is not a noise band. Their music has
>     rhythms and melody, two elements NOT present in
>     noise music. Just because the most famous noise
>     groups (Hijokaidan, Merzbow, Incapacitants, Solmania,
>     C.C.C.C. etc.) are from Japan, it doesn't mean that
>     the Boredoms are a noise band.
>
>     I've seen this journalistic inaccuracy a lot lately
>     whenever referring to a new band from Japan that
>     happens to include dissonant elements. Melt-Banana
>     being another recent example.
>
>     In fact (as I beat my point to death), if you asked
>     members of Boredoms (and I have), they would emphatically
>     say that they are not a noise band.
>
>     cheers,
>     mike rizzi
>     p.s. wow, I finally get to contribute something
>     myself instead of resending other peoples messages. :)
>     oh happy fucking day.
>
> [e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
> -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
>                       http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
> -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------
>
>
Sorry Mike. Actually in my ears, alot of what Zorn does I would classify
as noise. Not to say that noise is a bad thing, its just a description I
use to describe some music. It doesn't mean I dislike the music at all,
on the contrary, I crave it. I'm sorry if my use of the term "noise"
seemed to you to mean the underground, alterno-tag put on some bands; i
only meant the best.
As for his name, I just misspelled it.

Brent Oliver


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nicholas vassiliou <[e-mail]>
Subject: somethingnacht(can't remember whole title)
Date: 15 Jan 1996 21:09:21 GMT

Hi all,

I was recently looking for Zorn CD's at my local store when i came across a CD with a german title.I am not sure what it was but i
remember it ended in "nacht". I don't remember ever coming across that one one the various sites and i was wondering whether any
of you know anything about it. The tag on the CD said that it was his best release so far but i would like to hear some more opinions
since it was quite expensive.

Thanks,

Nick Vassiliou
York,UK




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Norihide Kise <[e-mail]>
Subject: A Question on mailing lists
Date: 15 Jan 1996 16:31:40 -0600 (CST)

Hello everyone!

I'm looking for some mailing lists on the following groups:
    *Henry Cow
    *Art Bears
    *The Work

    *S.P.K.
    *Throbbing Gristel
    *Popolu Vhu

If anyone knows any information, please let me know.

Sincerely,


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Germuska)
Subject: Tokyo Operations '94; New Zorn Discog online
Date: 15 Jan 1996 16:42:49 -0600

Hey, now...

as I'm a digest subscriber, perhaps this has already been announced, but
today I put version 9 of Patrice's Zorn discography into the WNUR JazzWeb
at <http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html>

I also put a pointer to Eric Marko's pages.  It's all the same to me if
everyone's pages point to all the same resources :-)

But the interesting thing -- we finally got "Cobra: Tokyo Operations '94"
(Avan 049) at the station -- it's _really_ good.  If you hadn't heard, it's
almost all traditional japanese instruments, including: nokan, shamisen,
dengakube, shakuhachi, gidayu, hichiriki, hoto, ortin doo, plus percussion,
guitar, bass, and vocals.  To be honest, it sounds almost exactly like I
would expect a japanese cobra recording to sound, although I probably
couldn't have imagined it beforehand!  It has the full range of sounds,
from skronky-noisy to refined and composed; six tracks, each about 8
minutes long...

We also got Masada: Vav, which, unsurprisingly, is great.  I know some
folks have run out of steam for Masada, but I still find it fresh and
interesting...

now would someone please ask John Zorn to come and _play_ this stuff for
us... I think the last time he was in Chicago was for a Cobra gig about two
years ago... far too long!  I'd especially be into a Masada show... (or
something with Big John Patton! :-)

joe

- --
Joe Germuska * Learning Technologies Group * Northwestern University
[e-mail] * http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska
"The man who owned the bookstore was not magic.  He was not a three-legged
crow on the dandelion side of the mountain."  - Richard Brautigan




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sandra York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: somethingnacht(can't remember whole title)
Date: 15 Jan 1996 17:25:26 -0500 (EST)

Yes, that would be Kristallnacht, translated as "Night of Broken Glass"
or "Night of Broken Windows."  It's a very intense piece about one
December night in Germany when the Nazis went on a spree of vandalism
and looting of Jewish-owned businesses.  Things really started to go
downhill for the Jews in Germany after this night (I'm sorry I don't
recall which year it was.)

A live performance of this piece is intense and moving, and the CD is an
incredible document.  It features Mark Feldman, Marc Ribot, Anthony
Coleman, Mark Dresser, William Winant, David Krakauer, Frank London, and
some really ear-piercing noises on track #2 that are very difficult to
listen to.

Sandra York


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 15:42:29 -0800 (PST)

Brent Oliver, the closet hipster sez:
>
>Sorry Mike.

    Awww, don't worry about it. This would be an awfully
    boring list if we didn't disagree about things. That's
    the beauty of the net, we can converse about stuff and
    if one of us is wrong, or has a different opinion, then
    folks step up and say their peace. I certainly hope you
    didn't take my soapbox spew personally.


    cheers,
    mike rizzi

    Now back to our regularly scheduled music discussions!

[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
- -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
                      http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
- -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Subharmonic -Reply
Date: 15 Jan 1996 16:51:26 -0800

You're missing Divination Vol 2 : Dead Slow.

BTW, what's the difference between "Execution Ground" and "Execution
Ground (Marbelized)?"

NLR

>>> <[e-mail]> - 1/13/96 4:38 AM >>>
Does anyone have even a vague idea of how many Subharmonic releases
there are? I've been trying to complete my collection(like that will
ever happen!).
Here's what I have:

Akasha: Divination(2-cd set)
Divination: ambient dub vol.1
Harris/Laswell: Sominific Flux
Sharp/Laswell: Visitation
Laswell/Inoue: Cymatic Scan
Laswell/Namlook: Psychonavigation
Lull: Cold Summer
Painkiller: Execution Ground (2-cd set)
Painkiller: Execution Ground (Marblized 2-cd set)
Praxis: Metatron
Praxis: Sacrafist
Valis i: Destruction of Syntax
Web: Web

     Anybody know what i'm missing? If music stores would just stick
them all in the Laswell bin instead of sending me on a scavenger
hunt, things would be much easier.  Also, Hey Patrice, are you still
doing the Zorn Discography? I'd love to get an updated copy if
possible. That Discography is simply awesome, as is the
Horvitz one. .   Thanks---Jim




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: precisions concerning few Zorn questions  -Reply
Date: 15 Jan 1996 16:55:28 -0800

#>>Sounds like FILMWORKS III is not out yet<<

Does this imply that there was a FILMWORKS II release?  If so, which
label and what does it contain?

NLR



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (john petrie)
Subject: Braxton
Date: 15 Jan 1996 20:11:08 +0500

John McMahon posted about Anthony Braxton, who i am a major fan of , so if
you want information about him and lots of other groovy musicians i suggest
the AACM homepage
, this is the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians out of
Chicago, and its members read like a who's who of good music, also check out
Braxton's new Knitting Factory disc with Mario Pavone, Dave Douglas, and
Thomas Chapin.

john petrie
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 16:54:35 -0800

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:42:29 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Brent Oliver, the closet hipster sez:
> >
> >Sorry Mike.
>
>     Awww, don't worry about it. This would be an awfully
>     boring list if we didn't disagree about things. That's
>     the beauty of the net, we can converse about stuff and
>     if one of us is wrong, or has a different opinion, then
>     folks step up and say their peace. I certainly hope you
>     didn't take my soapbox spew personally.
>
>
>     cheers,
>     mike rizzi
>
>     Now back to our regularly scheduled music discussions!

Mike, what about changing the name of this list? I remember you were
among the first ones to ask for a different name.

    Patrice.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic -Reply
Date: 15 Jan 1996 17:43:54 -0800

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:51:26 -0800  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> You're missing Divination Vol 2 : Dead Slow.
>
> BTW, what's the difference between "Execution Ground" and "Execution
> Ground (Marbelized)?"
>
> NLR
>
> >>> <[e-mail]> - 1/13/96 4:38 AM >>>
> Does anyone have even a vague idea of how many Subharmonic releases
> there are? I've been trying to complete my collection(like that will
> ever happen!).
> Here's what I have:
>
> Akasha: Divination(2-cd set)
> Divination: ambient dub vol.1
> Harris/Laswell: Sominific Flux
> Sharp/Laswell: Visitation
> Laswell/Inoue: Cymatic Scan
> Laswell/Namlook: Psychonavigation
> Lull: Cold Summer
> Painkiller: Execution Ground (2-cd set)
> Painkiller: Execution Ground (Marblized 2-cd set)
                ^^^^^^^^^

Don't forget also the metal one!

======================================================================

160 - EXECUTION GROUND: Pain Killer

  Disc 1:
    1/ Parish Of Tama (Ossuary Dub)                                     16:05
    2/ Morning Of Balachaturdasi                                        14:45
    3/ Pashupatinath                                                    13:47
  Disc 2: Ambient
    4/ Pashupatinath                                                    20:00
    5/ Parish Of Tama                                                   19:19

    Recorded in June 1994 at Greenpoint Studio, Brooklyn, New York

  John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Laswell: basses, samples; Mick Harris: drums,
  samples, vocals.

    1994 - Subharmonic (USA), SD 7008-2 (2xCD)
    1995 - Subharmonic (USA), #1708 (2xCD)
    1995 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88731/3 (3xCD)

  Note: the #1708 is a limited edition of 500 total: 250 being packaged in a
  marble box, and 250 in a metal box; both box designs are by artist Rockit.
  Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live concert
  called: LIVE IN OSAKA; following is its description:

*** - LIVE IN OSAKA: Pain Killer

    1/ GANDHAMADANA                                                     13:00
    2/ VAIDURYA                                                          9:00
    3/ SATAPITAKA                                                       11:00
    4/ BODKYITHANGGA                                                    13:00
    5/ John and Eye duo encore
      5a/ Black Bile                                                     1:45
      5b/ Yellow Bile                                                    0:58
      5c/ Crimson Bile                                                   1:46
      5d/ Ivory Bile                                                     1:26

    Recorded in November 1994 by Oz Fritz

  Regular Pain Killer lineup plus Yamatsuka Eye on (4,5).

======================================================================



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic -Reply
Date: 16 Jan 1996 12:52:44 +1100

>:You're missing Divination Vol 2 : Dead Slow.

Also

Chaos Face      Doom Ride       (sd 7004-2)
Final           One             (sd 7014-2)
Cypher7         Security        (sd 7014-2)

SD 7015-2 and SD 7016 were never released

Paul




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Muworks
Date: 16 Jan 1996 12:59:32 +1100

Hi z-listers,

Wondering if anyone knows where I can get in contact with Robert Musso's
label Muworks/ Mu Records. Is the label still in business? I've seen
mention of the label being discontnued in various on-line catalogs. Anyone
know the dirt?

Questions,questions,questions

Paul




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Pain Killer Live In Osaka
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:04:40 -0800

Thanks for clarification. One more question...

>>Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live
concert
  called: LIVE IN OSAKA<<

This is not the same as the RITUALS album released in 1994, is it?
When I was in New York, I had a chance to buy this at Downtown Music
but did not.  Now it is out of print.  Would be cool if they're
reissuing this one.

Another (un)related piece of flotsam:

The Grassy Knoll is playing two nights in San Francisco, beginning
the 26th.  For users of this news group, I would recommend getting a
copy of the first disk from this band.  It is available domestic on
Verve/Nettwerk.

NLR

>>> Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]> - 1/15/96 5:43 PM
>>>

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:51:26 -0800  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> You're missing Divination Vol 2 : Dead Slow.
>  > BTW, what's the difference between "Execution Ground" and
"Execution
> Ground (Marbelized)?"
>  > NLR   >  > >>> <[e-mail]> - 1/13/96 4:38 AM >>>
> Does anyone have even a vague idea of how many Subharmonic releases
> there are? I've been trying to complete my collection(like that
will
> ever happen!).
> Here's what I have:
>  > Akasha: Divination(2-cd set)
> Divination: ambient dub vol.1
> Harris/Laswell: Sominific Flux
> Sharp/Laswell: Visitation
> Laswell/Inoue: Cymatic Scan
> Laswell/Namlook: Psychonavigation
> Lull: Cold Summer
> Painkiller: Execution Ground (2-cd set)
> Painkiller: Execution
Ground
(Marblized
2-cd
set)
####^^^^^^^^^

Don't
forget
also
the
metal
one!

======================================================================

160 - EXECUTION GROUND: Pain Killer

  Disc 1:
    1/ Parish Of Tama (Ossuary Dub)
  16:05
    2/ Morning Of Balachaturdasi
  14:45
    3/ Pashupatinath
  13:47
  Disc 2: Ambient
    4/ Pashupatinath
  20:00
    5/ Parish Of Tama
  19:19

    Recorded in June 1994 at Greenpoint Studio, Brooklyn, New York

  John Zorn: alto, vocals; Bill Laswell: basses, samples; Mick
Harris: drums,
  samples, vocals.

    1994 - Subharmonic (USA), SD 7008-2 (2xCD)
    1995 - Subharmonic (USA), #1708 (2xCD)
    1995 - Toy's Factory Records (Japan), TFCK-88731/3 (3xCD)

  Note: the #1708 is a limited edition of 500 total: 250 being
packaged in a
  marble box, and 250 in a metal box; both box designs are by artist
Rockit.
  Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live
concert
  called: LIVE IN OSAKA; following is its description:

*** - LIVE IN OSAKA: Pain Killer

    1/ GANDHAMADANA
  13:00
    2/ VAIDURYA
   9:00
    3/ SATAPITAKA
  11:00
    4/ BODKYITHANGGA
  13:00
    5/ John and Eye duo encore
      5a/ Black Bile
   1:45
      5b/ Yellow Bile
   0:58
      5c/ Crimson Bile
   1:46
      5d/ Ivory Bile
   1:26

    Recorded in November 1994 by Oz Fritz


Regular
Pain
Killer
lineup
plus
Yamatsuka
Eye
on
(4,5).

======================================================================





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Yamatanka Eye
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:00:43 -0800 (PST)

Patrice L. Roussel, clearly not wanting to talk music sez:
>
>>     Now back to our regularly scheduled music discussions!
>
>Mike, what about changing the name of this list? I remember you were
>among the first ones to ask for a different name.

    Wrong-ola! I was against both the name change and
    the broadening of list charter.

    Not to worry, I don't have a secret plans to narrow
    the discussion hereabouts.

    Regarding the name change: Good god, Patrice, I've
    got my hands full handling the transition...I'm
    still spending about an hour a day on it. Let's
    wait till things settle down.

    cheers,
    mike rizzi


[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
- -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
                      http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
- -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: missing Digest Volume 0 Number 001
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)

ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN ZORN


    This is a digest of the zorn-list messages that
    were sent to the old address during the conversion.

    For you archivists, let's call this digest
    Volume 0 Number 001

        - mike rizzi, [e-mail]

======================================================================

>From [e-mail]  Wed Dec 27 13:43:29 1995

[e-mail]  said:

>> Just got Bucketheadland btw, and it kiks ass!
>
>
>You should check out 'Giant Robot'.  More music than 'B-H land'.

The third solo Buckethead CD is mastered and should be released on the Sub
Meta label (distributed by Caroline in the US) within two months.  It is
better than either of the prior ones.  It will be called "Day of the
Robot."

>Also, I've seen a double-cd set of 'Execution Ground'.  Does anyone know
>what the difference is between this and the regular edition?
>
>        [ David, the double-CD set *is* the regular edition.  You
>          may mean the triple-CD edition, which is a Japanese import.
>          the 1st two discs are the same, but the 3rd is a live disc.
>          Great stuff.  -Matt ]

There were also a bunch of special editions distinguished by their packages
- - rubber, marble, etc.  They were all double-CD versions, not the triple
version.  The triple-CD version, in addition to the excellent live disc,
has cool graphics (one of the photos only on the triple is on the Sub Meta
page at the Axiom Web Site (URL below.)


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/

======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Wed Dec 27 18:59:42 1995

Beunos Vuelcos, Amigos!

I'd like to begin a thread that I think will be a winner- seeing as how we
all have exquisite musical taste on this list, and seeing as how 1995 is
pretty much dead and buried, let's each post in with our opinion of:

BEST RELEASE OF 1995


There's alot to choose from, many different ones from Zorn himself.  My
vote goes squarely to-   _Disco Volante_ by Mr. Bungle.  Anyone on this
list who appreciates the pure illness of Zorn's material will splack this
album like a junky on china white.  In some ways Zorn proteges, they've
already gotten extensive coverage on this list.  And let me tell you
something- this album blows y away their last one- and their last one was a
masterpeice.

Anyone else?

======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Thu Dec 28 00:42:03 1995

just got back from the wednesday night masada show and as expected it was
great. zorn seemed to be in a really good mood and enjoyed watching the
other members solo as much as he enjoyed playing. i only own "aleph" so i
can't give you much set info but it was about 1 hr 15 mins. long.

greg cohen's bands opening set was a bit boring, a bit too straight ahead
for my tastes.

here's my questions. zorn seems to be doing everything in his power to
forward the cause of the "radical jewish culture" (i.e. his series,
masada, etc.). does anyone know if zorn himself is a practicing jew? i
remember the zorn month at the knitting factory a couple of years ago was
in september and he played on the high holy days, a definite "sin" as far
as the religion is concerned. tonight he was wearing tzi-tzis (sp?) the
strings mostly orthodox jews wear around their waist (and i've seen him
wear them before).

my question comes from simple interest, there's no ulterior motive to
tear down what zorn is doing. while i was raised jewish, i consider
myself an atheist today but still in some ways a "cultural" jew.

jon


======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Thu Dec 28 01:43:25 1995

Those interested in hearing John Oswald's "Plunderphonics" recording.....

                I actually got a hold of a tape copy through an ad in the
latest issue of the ReR Quarterly magazine "Unfiled - Music Under New
Technology" (this one being sold 'seperate' from the disc) following a
Negativland article. It reads:

                "For copies of Oswald's "Plunderphonic" and Negativland's
"U2", send a 100 minute blank cassette (not less) and a self-addressed
envelope & IRC to Copyright Violation Squad, PO Box 227, Iowa City, IA
52244, USA. Enclose $1.00 donation to their costs."

                There's also a promo CDEP from Oswald called "Rubaiyat
Plunderphonics" which is equally as amazing. It was released in conjuction
with their 20th (i think?) anniversary.

                For folks living in the SF area...I've found many of Oswald
"Recycled" tapes in the 'experimental' section at Amoeba Records
(Berkeley)...cheap too...under $4...some heavy plundering on these
cassettes.

                Those looking for the Massacre "Killing Time" CD....I've
seen it in the latest Wayside catalog for about $10...grab 'em while you
can.

                I've got about 5 or 6 kick-ass live shows from
Massacre...who's energy is best captured live....trades are always welcome.

                Greg Gunthner
                [e-mail]


======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Thu Dec 28 10:16:50 1995

> I don't know if this is Downtown or not, but has anyone heard the new album
> SKIN by Dr. Nerve?  It's pretty amazing and I think it is one of the best
> albums of '95.  Anyone else know how the older stuff from Dr. Nerve
compares?

> Also, has anyone head of Unsettled Scores from Cuneiform and know what's
> on it?

Yes, it's very downtown - Nerve *are* a NYC band - & one of the most
overlooked & least appreciated imho.
Doctor Nerve have been around for over a decade & have released five albums
(now on four CDs)

Their 1st 3 (Out To Bomb Fresh Kings, Armed Observation & Did Sprinting Die)
are all in their "earlier" vein, which is more in the "downtown" sound of
Massacre/Material/Curlew/Lounge Lizards "punk-jazz" for lack of a better term
(although they have their own sound, & don't really sound like any of those
bands.

By their 4th, Beta 14 OK, they begin to develop the sound they currently use
- - loud, fast, heavy, although the guitarwork is not as prominent, nor are the
metal influences as obvious as on "Skin" (their latest).

I'd suggest getting Beta 14, & working your way backwards from there.

"Unsettled Scores" has various Cuneiform bands covering other Cuneiform
bands, including several Doctor Nerve covers.

Steve F.


======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Thu Dec 28 12:53:25 1995

[e-mail] Simon Says:

Also a Japanese composer in the New Composer series looked interesting. I
don't remember his name but it features traditional instruments like shamisen
with vocals. Is the music based on trad. forms, and if so is it based on
gakaku (court music) or folk styles? or is it best described as 'avant-garde'?


The new disc Finger Light by Yuji Takahashi uses shamisen & voice, if what
you're thinking of is a new release, that's probably it.  None of the music
on Finger Light is strictly traditional Japanese music, it's more a kind of
fusion of contemporary "avant garde" western classical with trad Japanese.
It doesn't sound very "weird"  at least in the standard vein of "weird"
that gets discussed here, but it's very good.

The disc has three pieces that use traditional Japanese instruments & voice:

Sugagaki Kuzushi for shamisen & bass shamisen, with voice
Mimi No Ho for sho, viola, & text (a poem of Osip Mandelstam read in Russian)
Kagehime No Michiyuki for shamisen with voice

The disc also has a 20 minute piece for solo piano (Yubi Tomyo or Finger
Light, the title track).

Takahashi is probably best known in the west as a classical pianist who's
recorded early Modern (Satie & Debussy) & more contemporary (Cage, Rzewski,
Xenakis) classical repertoire.  This is virtually the only recording
available outside of Japan of his own music.  He makes electronic music
too.

For those who are interested in knowing more about Takahashi's work with
traditional Japanese instruments, there's a very good interview spread out
over several issues of Xebec magazine, a Japanese music mag that has an
English language Web site hanging off of the American electronic music
composer Carl Stone's Web pages at:

<http://www.sukothai.com>

FWIW, Stone has collaborated with Yoshihide Otomo (Monogatari: Amino Argot
on the Japanese Trigram label) & has a solo CD of music drawn from samples
of Japanese street sounds (Kamiya Bar on the Italian New Tone label).



Herb Levy
[e-mail]


======================================================================
>From [e-mail]  Thu Dec 28 12:53:33 1995

David Beardsley
[e-mail]

writes:

> Judging from the tiny photo on the cover (liner notes), the sonic sculptures
> seem to be very long string instruments hanging from above.

Mineko Grimmer's sculptures typically involve stones frozen into ice
suspended over wood and other stones, as the ice melts the frozen stones
are freed to drop onto the surface below.  I'm pretty sure from hearing the
CD that this is the kind of piece involved here.

Good general description of the disc, though.


Herb Levy
[e-mail]


======================================================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Mamoru Fujieda
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)

I found these interviews out on the net, and thought that some of you might
be interrested.

Jonas

   S: How did John Zorn get involved with your (Old: Lo Flux Tube) last album?

   Jim Plotkin: He asked us if we wanted any help, and we said 'sure'! I
   love the way he plays sax, so we just said, 'blow your brains out' on
   this one song, we did that and he basically put his two cents on the
   recording. It wasn't like he sat down and helped us produce, which all
   of the tabloids seem to have mixed up. He did offer his help freely and
   that was cool because he's got a lot of experience and he's pretty smart.

   S: He had known you before then?

   Jim Plotkin: Mick Harris introduced me to him a long time ago, and he's
   got a decent musical taste so it's easy to get along with him, he's really
   generous and everything.

======================================================================

Their (Mr. Bungle) eponymous debut album is produced by avant-horn guru
John Zorn, an appropriate choice since Mr. Bungle's sound is akin to a
mentally disturbed version of Zorn's band Naked City.

"Zorn is this great big guy," Dunn says earnestly.
"Looks a lot like Clarence Clemons," adds Bar.
"And he pretty much forced us to do the record," continues Dunn. "He
wouldn't let us leave until it was done."
"That's our principal motivatin force," says Heifitz. "Fear."

======================================================================

To help them blaze a more unorthodox path, Mr. Bungle chose jazz-metal
noise terrorist John Zorn as producer.  "We were just fans," says Danny
about the mad alto saxophonist, known for the jarring 'cable-TV-in-hell'
sound-bludgeons of Naked City, Painkiller and Torture Garden.

"And really, just like in porno shopping, all we had to do was ask,"
explains Mike.  "Besides, he was cheaper than Thomas Dolby."

It is Zorn's twisted jazz sensibilities that give Mr. Bungle a certain
edge in the strangeness department, above and beyond their own headfirst
leap into the lunatic fringe.

"Zorn could lend a lot of definition of parts; his music moves in pretty
much the same way ours does," says Trey.  "We wanted every part within a
song to have an entirely different character and he really brought that out."

As pay-back, Zorn "pinched my ass, ripped out a couple of butt-hairs and
asked me to sing for Naked City.  I guess he liked the way I screamed,"
sniggers Mike, who fronted the outfit on a string of East Coast dates.

"By the way, I'm leaving both Faith No More and Mr. Bungle for Naked City."


======================================================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Massacre CD
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)

I bought a cut-out copy of the Massacre CD from Wayside for seven bucks.
 They may still have some left.  Try [e-mail] but don't clog up their
e-mail with vague questions; if that's not correct i'll post the real mail
address later.

Best, Lang Thompson

======================================================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: um..sorry
Date: 15 Jan 1996 18:12:53 -0800 (PST)

when i uesd the phrase "blowing his nose thru the selmer" i was
paraphrasing zorn's description of pharoh sanders...i guess i didnt argue
my case very well and i misunderstood what was being discussed...my
sincere apologies

in other news...this week the  record store i workat received cobra:tokyo
operations 94, prompted by maganami koichi (who has a release of his own
on tzadik) and Harras the zorn/bailey/parker trio and masada six...i
havent heard any of these so any infowould be most welcomed

any more infomation on the New England Conservatory stuff would be most
appreciated (like tickets etc)

thanks
brendan

======================================================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: "conservative" Zorn
Date: 05 Jan 1996 11:42:46 -0500

While there hasn't been a new zorn digest in a while (I assume because of
the pending shift to a new list owner), I have been thinking some about the
ongoing thread concerning the relatively conservative nature of the Masada
group.

If an important part of Zorn's musical project is to stretch, confound, and
otherwise fuck with presuppositions about various musical styles & genres
(remember Zorn's frequent comments about jazz fans & critics during Naked
City shows), then perhaps a case could be made that one function of Zorn's
work with groups like Masada is to fuck with the presuppositions of those
who are most attracted to his noisy music.

On the other hand, like most composer/performers, maybe Zorn has always
just made music that he likes and his "fans" just respond to the music
that's most like what they are used to.  That is, Jazzbos like the jazz,
the noisemeisters like the noise, etc.  Few people seem to care that Zorn
seems to like all of the range of styles that he plays equally well.

My thoughts in this direction stem from Zorn's reactions to critics, which
seems based on attempts to pigeonhole him stylistically.  I'm really not
sure that there's a significant difference between wanting to judge his
work as if it were all within the "jazz" market niche, than judging it from
the "extreme" "industrial" market niche, or whatever.

I can't think of many musicians (or any other kind of artist either) who
have continued to push aesthetic boundaries for more than fifteen years.
Eventually, most artists end up mining a particular area or areas of their
past work.  John Cage is perhaps the best counter-example I can think of of
a composer who was able to continually push the boundaries he'd previously
set up for himself.  If Zorn's begun to repeat himself and/or retreat from
some of his past extreme positions (& I'm not going to count him out in
this regard yet), he's still worked creatively in more formats and
reinventing his overall approach more often than most composer/performers
working in any of the genres that he touches on.

Just my opinion, of course.

& BTW, there is little, if any, real klezmer influence in the Masada
recordings, the stylistic components that are not related to Ornette
Coleman's early acoustic groups are drawn from Middle Eastern folk
traditions, not the Eastern European traditions of klezmer.  As Wayne
Horvitz puts it, Zorn is not the kind of guy to jump on that kind of
bandwagon so late.

Bests

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]


======================================================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn - virgin
Date: 12 Jan 1996 09:49:16 -0500


I found out about John Zorn through the group Mr. Bungle a few years back
and I wanted to ask you guys which CD of Zorn's would be a good first
purchase. I really like bizarre jazz, so any recommendations would be
greatly appreciated.

Robert


[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
- -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
                      http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
- -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Muworks
Date: 15 Jan 1996 19:26:40 -0800

Muworks is handled by Downtown Music Gallery in New York City.  They can be
contacted at [e-mail].

At 5:59 PM 1/15/96, Paul Jacobson wrote:
>Hi z-listers,
>
>Wondering if anyone knows where I can get in contact with Robert Musso's
>label Muworks/ Mu Records. Is the label still in business? I've seen
>mention of the label being discontnued in various on-line catalogs. Anyone
>know the dirt?
>
>Questions,questions,questions
>
>Paul

Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: THE JOHN ZORN (AND OTHER DOWNTO
Date: 15 Jan 1996 20:47:24 -0800

Got the digest, mike.  Thanks. [e-mail] (Allan Horrocks)  PS How you
doin'?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Peter Valerio)
Subject: Tokyo Openations 94
Date: 15 Jan 1996 15:11:21 MST

I noticed an Avant release from John Zorn titled "Tokyo Operations 94".

It was released Jan 96.  Does anyone have any information on this.

Thanks in advance.

Peter Valerio


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Cengiz Dolkay <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 16 Jan 1996 14:01:32 +0300 (MEST)

Hello,

A very recent CD release from HatART label is Anthony Braxton Creative
Orchestra Music 1978. In the sleeve notes I remember that Mr. Graham LOCK
wrote that John Zorn had very close relations with Mr. Braxton's music,
at least once. His music made him very surprised and had great influences.

I cant remember the actual written material however if someone wants to I
will get it.

Thanks.
from Istanbul
volkan Terzioglu



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Simon Williams-Burns)
Subject: [none]
Date: 16 Jan 1996 12:50:25 +0000

re:michael wittman's comments on noo system

hiya folks...just waded through over 50 noo blobs of mail from thee
zzzzzorn list....so, to michael wittman-i hearby pledge alleigence....give
us back the olde system...this one is FAR too time consuming....as it is i
have to use the College computers to access my mail and it just gets VERY
difficult to take in so many individual messages....and I've got a 3000
word essay to write on the representation of empire in mass culture....so
stop it-this is getting STUPID!

                   loaf - CRAYOLA




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: HDCD
Date: 16 Jan 1996 13:18:02 GMT

"Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: 1996 Knitting Factory announced releases

[snip]

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *** - SUNRISE: Anthony Coleman
>
>   Music to accompany the silent film SUNRISE (by F.W. Murnau).
>
>     1996 - Knitting Factory Works (USA), KFW-1002+ (HDCD)
>
>   Note: release planned in 1996.
>   Note: HDCD is a new format that combines a 2 1/2 hours video format with a
>   regular 70 minute CD.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[THE GOLEM by Gary Lucas was also similarly described]

Hmmmm!  Interesting!!  HDCD is mentioned, but not quite correctly.

First up, we have to differentiate between High-Density Compact Disc
and High Definition Compatible Digital CD.  The former was a generic
name given to a new, higher density CD format, the latter is the name
of a coding process used to improve the quality of standard audio
CDs (rather like Sony's Super Bit Mapping).

If the Knitting factory intends to release the discs with HDCD coding,
then the sound *should* be improved on conventional CD players, but
will be further improved in a system containing a HDCD decoder (that's
the theory, all reviews I've read have been very sceptical up to now;
the only HDCD coded disc I own myself is Neil Young's Mirror Ball -- a
deliberately lo-fi production -- so I can't comment at this time).
Asssuming that this is the case, then the video comment makes no sense,
since HDCD does nothing to improve the data capacity.

If the Knitting Factory intends to release a high-density disc (known as
SD by Toshiba/Warner and MMCD by Philips/Sony), then, at least in its
first phase of life, it will have enough capacity to store 2.25 hours (or
thereabouts) of high quality video, but it can not do this in addition to
storing 70 minutes of standard audio CD data (it could if you reduced the
amount of video, though).  Maybe someone is getting a little confused
here, and meant that the high density discs will have enough capacity
for 2+ hours of high quality video on a disc the same size as an audio
CD (which is the case).  If the KF is planning to do this, this is very
exciting news, as the first commercial players are not expected to be
on the market until the latter part of 1996, so they will be very much
on the cutting-edge, technology-wise.  (I should point out that the
new high-density formats are *not* comaptible with existing CD players,
so you will need to buy a new player to view/listen to these discs.)

Hopefully this post wasn't too technology biased for you all, but if
we can clarify the situation with regard to these discs, it might
help to influence some of your purchasing decisions for `96 -- I'm
sure no one would want to be stuck with a disc they couldn't play!

Again, apologies for the lack of music content, if you must flame, do
it via private e-mail -- to keep the noise down.

Dem ([e-mail])

P.S. My comments are not directed at Patrice, by the way.  I'm sure he's
     just reporting what's in the catalogue.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Gulp!
Date: 16 Jan 1996 13:32:10 GMT

[e-mail] (m. rizzi) wrote:
> Subject: Re: Wittman's idea
>
>     The list currently has 60 subscribers to the digest
>     and 355 subscribers getting it "real-time."

Am I the only one to be amazed at this?  415 subscribers!  Incredible.
I'm on a number of lists, and I can tell you that the most recently
announced figures put the Rolling Stones list at about 850, Led
Zeppelin at just over 1000, and Peter Gabriel at around 600 (I've
no idea for the other lists I'm on).  Given the difference in popularity
between Zorn (and his ilk) and the Stones/Led Zep, this is no mean
achievement.  Once again, congrats. to Matt and Mike for building this
thing up.


David Beardsley ([e-mail]) wrote:
> Subject: Harras - Derek Bailey recordings?
>
> Does anybody know if the recording of Derek Bailey with
> Bill Laswell & Tony Williams on DIW was ever released?

No I don't, but PLEASE someone tell me that it's true.  This sounds
just too good to be true.

Dem ([e-mail])


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: This and That
Date: 16 Jan 1996 14:01:57 GMT

Norihide Kise <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: A Question on mailing lists
>
> I'm looking for some mailing lists on the following groups:
>     *Henry Cow
>     *Art Bears
>     *The Work
>     *S.P.K.
>     *Throbbing Gristel  <<<  Gristle ?
>     *Popolu Vhu         <<<  Popul Vuh ?

Most of these groups are regularly discussed on rec.music.progressive.
Can't help with any mailing lists, though, sorry.


Paul Jacobson <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: Re: Subharmonic -Reply
>
> >:You're missing Divination Vol 2 : Dead Slow.
>
> Also
> Final           One             (sd 7014-2)
> Cypher7         Security        (sd 7014-2)
>
> SD 7015-2 and SD 7016 were never released

Cypher 7's Security should, of course, be SD 7017-2.

Also, no one has listed the Strata releases, which are also linked
to Subharmonic:

Death Cube K (Buckethead) - Dreamatorium - Strata/Subharmonic - 0001-2
Azonic Halo - Strata/Subharmonic - 0002-2
Cypher 7 - Decoder - Strata/Subharmonic - 0003-2
Automaton - Dub Terror Exhaust - Strata/Subharmonic - 0004-2
Automaton - Jihad Points Of Order - Strata/Subharmonic - 0005-2


Nick Roberts <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: re: Pain Killer Live In Osaka
>
> Thanks for clarification. One more question...
>
> >>Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live
> >>concert called: LIVE IN OSAKA<<
>
> This is not the same as the RITUALS album released in 1994, is it?

No, completely different, and well worth having (if you can find/afford it!).

> When I was in New York, I had a chance to buy this at Downtown Music
> but did not.  Now it is out of print.  Would be cool if they're
> reissuing this one.

This sounds strange to me, I ordered a copy from Japan towards the end
of last year, and it showed up, no problem.  However, Buried Secrets is
proving difficult to get hold of!  (Guts Of A Virgin on Toy's Factory
also showed up no problem.)  Is this an availability in Europe vs. America
thing?  (All the Tzadiks are proving impossible to find here!!)

Dem ([e-mail])


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Muworks
Date: 16 Jan 1996 08:28:30 -0800

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:59:32 +1100  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Hi z-listers,
>
> Wondering if anyone knows where I can get in contact with Robert Musso's
> label Muworks/ Mu Records. Is the label still in business? I've seen
> mention of the label being discontnued in various on-line catalogs. Anyone
> know the dirt?

The label is out of business. That's all I know.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 16 Jan 1996 09:24:27 -0800

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:01:32 +0300 (MEST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> A very recent CD release from HatART label is Anthony Braxton Creative
> Orchestra Music 1978. In the sleeve notes I remember that Mr. Graham LOCK
> wrote that John Zorn had very close relations with Mr. Braxton's music,
> at least once. His music made him very surprised and had great influences.

Zorn's take on the sax is mainly due to him discovering FOR ALTO (which
seems to be, on the new generation, the most influential record ever made).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: This and That
Date: 16 Jan 1996 09:48:22 -0800

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:01:57 GMT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Nick Roberts <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Subject: re: Pain Killer Live In Osaka
> >
> > Thanks for clarification. One more question...
> >
> > >>Note: the Japanese pressing adds an extra record which is a live
> > >>concert called: LIVE IN OSAKA<<
> >
> > This is not the same as the RITUALS album released in 1994, is it?
>
> No, completely different, and well worth having (if you can find/afford it!).
>
> > When I was in New York, I had a chance to buy this at Downtown Music
> > but did not.  Now it is out of print.  Would be cool if they're
> > reissuing this one.
>
> This sounds strange to me, I ordered a copy from Japan towards the end
> of last year, and it showed up, no problem.  However, Buried Secrets is
> proving difficult to get hold of!  (Guts Of A Virgin on Toy's Factory
> also showed up no problem.)  Is this an availability in Europe vs. America
> thing?  (All the Tzadiks are proving impossible to find here!!)

Because of problems with CAAV (Commitee Against Asian Violence), Zorn
decided to remove from the US market both TORTURE GARDEN and RITUALS.
People in other countries, assumed more adult, are not affected by this
purely domestic decision. These records will be introduced again in the
US with a dark jacket.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 16 Jan 1996 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Brent Oliver wrote:

[snip. Extracted Mike's bit. Irrelevant. Folks, please learn to use your
mail viewers/text editors whatever it is (Elm, Eudora, Pine, ad nauseum)
and TRIM THOSE POSTS when you repost! It is a true waste of bandwidth...
(Not a general flame...just a PSA...)]

> Sorry Mike. Actually in my ears, alot of what Zorn does I would classify
> as noise. Not to say that noise is a bad thing, its just a description I
> use to describe some music. It doesn't mean I dislike the music at all,
> on the contrary, I crave it. I'm sorry if my use of the term "noise"
> seemed to you to mean the underground, alterno-tag put on some bands; i
> only meant the best.

Noise:
1noise \'no?iz\ n
[ME, fr. OF, strife, quarrel, noise, fr. L nausea nausea]
(13c)
1: loud, confused, or senseless shouting or outcry
2a: SOUND; esp: one that lacks agreeable musical quality or is
     noticeably unpleasant
2b: any sound that is undesired or intith one's hearing of
     something
   con    quiet, silence, stillness
- -Websters/Thesarus online dictionary/client v. 1.0.1 1992 Stanford University

Methinks that it is def. 2a that you describe. On the other hand, I
implore you to examine the antonym "silence" which was so thoughtfully
explored by Cage in the perhaps overplayed (but none less insightful)
4'33". Then will you will have further understanding as to what is
sound (everything), what is noise (the unwanted), and silence (null, it
doesn't exist.

Because every sound on a recording is an element of the art form, just as
sleeve art is a part of album art, none is unwanted (except perhaps,
vinyl pops and tape hiss.). Even then, the "Mystic Fugu Orchestra" (a
bizarrely annoying yet funny album despite what folks on this list
refer to Zorn's "conservatism") is filled with vinyl pops and are those
sounds unwanted? They are part of the artistic experience. It is in fact,
rather conservative to refer to it as noise - sort of what they said
about Jimi Hendrix' sound.

I'm not trying to put anyone down, but references to this stuff as noise
only demonstrates one's inability to comprehend or understand (of
course you can still appreciate) the music or art form.

'Course there is a lot of crap out there that you shouldn't bother trying
to comprehend...I just don't think that Zorn is part of it...

[steppin' off mah soapbox]

- -Pete


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: 16 Jan 1996 11:46:32 +48000

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Simon Williams-Burns wrote:

> re:michael wittman's comments on noo system
>
> hiya folks...just waded through over 50 noo blobs of mail from thee
> zzzzzorn list....so, to michael wittman-i hearby pledge alleigence....give
> us back the olde system...this one is FAR too time consuming....as it is i
> have to use the College computers to access my mail and it just gets VERY
> difficult to take in so many individual messages....and I've got a 3000
> word essay to write on the representation of empire in mass culture....so
> stop it-this is getting STUPID!
>
>                    loaf - CRAYOLA
>
Just to provide the counterpoint, I much prefer the new format.  If the
bombardment is too much, follow the instructions for moving yourself to
digest form.  I think the traffic will die down as soon as the "newness"
of the new format drops off.

Also this a particularly active time for labels, so there is more
"release info" coming forward about now.  I, for one, would be happier to
see more in depth show/release reviews and ongoing debate (with or
without flames) about the material in question.  The Braxton thread is,
for me, an example of what we could use more of.

Thanks to Mike for taking this list over and moving us all to xmission.com.

Bob
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 16 Jan 1996 18:20:28 -0500

> From: John McMahon <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 21:07:18 EST
>
>
> Friends:
>
[...]
>
> 1. Is there anything that would link the music of Zorn to the music of
> Braxton, and thus explain the appeal of one, to fans of the other?
>
[...]

I think the most important similarity between Zorn and Braxton is the
fact that they are both conceptual innovators who refuse to accept the
boundaries enforced by various musical traditions.  Also, they are
both composers who have mastered the important musical styles and
innovations of the last few decades (and earlier) who are also very
important saxophone soloists with influences spanning the history
of the instrument.

The game theory stuff goes back to the game pieces Xenakis wrote for
orchestra in the 50s, and John Cage and Lejaren Hiller's HPSCHD, and I
think Braxton and Zorn both got the idea from them; Mozart also wrote
a game piece but I'm not sure that was what influenced either Braxton
or Zorn.  Zorn and Braxton definitely know their Xenakis, Cage, and
Stockhausen inside and out.

[...]
>
> 2. To what extent are the performance/composition strategies of each artist
> purely intellectual, as opposed to emotional, or deliberately evocative of
> emotion? In other words - does what I feel when I listen to this music MATTER?

One of the marks of great music is the subtlety with which emotion is
evoked by it.  Masters like Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, etc. could
precisely evoke complex emotional states that are interminglings of
the more basic emotions that are trivial to portray musically (happy,
sad, blah, blah, blah).  These musical expressions require a certain
amount of stillness/inner calm/emptiness on the part of the listener
to understand/appreciate in full.

I think Zorn's music, especially the Naked City stuff, incorporates
the bewildering aspect of life in this cultural era, especially as
encountered in places like New York City.  The emotions expressed in
each of the jump-cut sections of the pieces in Torture Garden run the
gamut of those encountered today in an urban, media-barraged
lifestyle.  Also one feeling I definitely get from both the News for
Lulu and Masada recordings is a sense of deep affection and respect
for the material by Zorn and his cohorts.  He has also brought musical
irony back out of the gutter (PDQ Bach) and back into the realm where
it belongs (with Mozart and Carl Stalling).

I would have to say the same thing regarding Braxton's In the
Tradition and Standards recordings.  His duet album with Derek
Bailey (Moment Precieux) is one of the most sensitive and sublime
recordings I've ever heard, very heartfelt and moving.  His more
elaborate works for ensemble and orchestra to my mind express
more complex emotional/mental/spiritual states.  Braxton's manic
performance of Giant Steps precisely and brilliantly expresses
the panic and joy that every player must feel when performance
that very difficult piece for the first time...

I would have to say that looking for simple, clear evocation of
particular emotions in the music of Braxton or Zorn would be a
mistake.  The complexity of the music is a reflection of the
complex emotional and mental situations that everyone faces in
the contemporary urban environment.

While both of them are intellectual giants who have both produced
works of daunting complexity, to discount the importance of emotion
in their works is perhaps more a statement about the capacity of
the listener than of the music.  This is as true today with the
music of Braxton, Zorn and others as it was with the Grosse Fuge
of Beethoven.  This is not meant as a criticism per se, since it
is self evident to me that different listeners are always going
to have different levels of understanding and empathy with different
musics.

To quote Jorge Luis Borges, "Beauty waits in ambush for us.  If we
are sensitive, we will feel it in the poetry of all languages."

BTW, an interesting parallel between Zorn and Beethoven is their
disdain for critics.  Beethoven compared the audience to cattle
and asses at the premiere of the Grosse Fuge...kind of like saying
Jazz/Naked City snobs fuck off eh?  A similarity between Braxton
and Beethoven is that neither is caucasion (Beethoven was of Moorish
(North African) descent)...

Andrew


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Marc Kate)
Subject: an Italian Concert?
Date: 16 Jan 1996 18:41:54 -0800

On Patrice's list, I just came across the listing:

>  176 - ANGELICA 94: various artists
>
>  A document from the fourth edition of the Italian jazz festival Angelica
>  which features Bob Ostertag, John Zorn, Fred Frith, Phil Minton, John
>  Oswald, Guy Klucevsek, Rohan de Saram, Mark Dresser, Gerry Hemingway,
>  Stefano Scodanibbio, etc.
>
>    1995 - Pierrot Lunaire (Italy), CAICAI-006 (CD)

Has anyone heard it, have it or know if it is available from the us?
Thanks in advance.

                                        Marc Kate
                                   415-206-1050
                             [e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #3
Date: 16 Jan 1996 22:10:54 -0500

dave, yet another John Zorn list. It may need to be downloaded to your
machine for reading, and therefore may have the same name as the earlier Zorn
piece I sent you. You may need to rename it before downloading.

Joe Janecek

SNYDER'S OF HANOVER
OLD TYME PRETZELS
*Snack of the Year '95!*
Automatic Merchandiser Magazine
======================================================================


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: Re: More Braxton
Date: 16 Jan 1996 22:10:54 -0500

>Zorn's take on the sax is mainly due to him discovering FOR ALTO (which

he mentions this in writing in the liner notes to Early Works CD

>seems to be, on the new generation, the most influential record ever made).

indeed

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: stop
Date: 17 Jan 1996 01:07:00 -0500

unsubsribe


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 16 Jan 1996 21:15:14 GMT

john mcmahon:

> 1. Is there anything that would link the music of Zorn to the music of
> Braxton, and thus explain the appeal of one, to fans of the other?

i think that braxton was a very important (if not the most important) figure
to zorn as a saxophonist. the braxton influence is (admittedly) all over his
early playing.

> I've considered this from a number of angles. It seems to me that, while
the
> results they obtain are obviously different (and indeed may seem utterly
> unrelated), there is a similarity in approach, or at least in the spirit of
> their approach, to the task of composition/improvisation. I recall seeing a
> reference to compositional and improvisational "strategies" in Braxton's
notes
> to one of his albums, and it is striking that one refers to strategies in
> games (or 'game-pieces'(?)) as well.

braxton developed what he calls "language music" in which different ways of
playing are broken down into very basic units (the letters) and then
assembled in different ways in his various compositions (the words,
sentences, and eventually stories etc). this idea supposedly came to him
after playing his first solo concert, in which he used up all his ideas in
the first 10 min and then had to continue on for another 50.

this idea of integrating well defined structure into improvised music
(without relying on harmonic organization) seems to me to have been very
influential on zorn (and countless others) eventually leading him to throw
his own twist into the mix with the game pieces.


> 2. To what extent are the performance/composition strategies of each artist
> purely intellectual, as opposed to emotional, or deliberately evocative of
> emotion?

i think most music is always both. anyone who says braxton's all intellect
and no feeling is off their rocker. seeing the
braxton/crispell/dresser/hemmingway group was, without a doubt the most
spiritual musical experience that i've had. impossible to separate the
connection to my intellect from the elevation of my spirit. perhaps people
think of music which doesn't reflect one specific emotion as unemotional, i
don't know...

as far as zorn is concerned, i think his music clearly works in evocative
ways, often more sociological than purely emotional. then again, there's
always "kristallnacht".

>In other words - does what I feel when I listen to this music MATTER?

it's the only thing that matters, in the end.


shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Walsh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Yamatanka Eye / Noise
Date: 17 Jan 1996 10:12:00 PST

I think this thread about "noise" is being blown way out of proportion. I
don't think it really matters to what Webster has written down as the
definition of "noise". Everything in this world that you hear is noise, it's
when you listen to that noise and analyze/enjoy it is when it becomes
something else. I am a big fan of John Zorn, Naked City, and the Boredoms,
and would classify some of each artists material as "noise", though I
understand it, have listened to it and enjoy it. I think a classic example
of this is the band A.C. (whose real name I won't write to keep our readers
(especially female) from being disgusted). Anyway, upon first listen of A.C.
I think most people (even people in this list) would consider this band to
be noise. Not surprising, as from first listen (and most after that), it
sounds like a band just trying to sound loud and obnoxious, with no specific
notes being played, with the singer screaming to the top of his lungs
similar to what Eye does most times. Well, a few years back, I got to see
A.C. in concert, and to my suprise, they were playing the damn songs nearly
note for note the way they were on the album! I didn't even think there were
notes! My point is, that "noise" can be taken in many ways, and I think it's
mainly being taken in 2 ways on this thread. 1. Noise as "musicless, annoyng
sounds" is in the ear of the beholder. Artists such as Naked City and the
Boredoms to most of my friends is noise. I'm sure we all here have a similar
adjective to describe the artists we don't like, "crap" coming first on my
mind. If they don't like it, well, who cares, I think Madonna and Boyz II
Men suck. I think I'd prefer them not to like Zorn, as I'd be scared to hear
from Casey Casem that Naked City has the #1 song in America. 2. "noise" as a
style of music, such as Boredoms are a noise band. I can't believe that
there are arguments pertaining to this in a John Zorn list!! Hasn't the one
thing that John Zorn has taught us in all of his works is that Music has no
boundaries? Do the readers of this list view John Zorn as strictly a Jazz
musician? I sure as hell hope not. Zorn has taken all styles of music in,
and combined them into his own form. Which is why it is so goddamn hard to
find Zorn material in stores other than places like Tower or specialty
stores that have a clue. Where the hell do you look for a Zorn CD? Jazz?
Rock? Metal? You can spend a whole day looking all over a stores little
departments trying to find a Zorn CD, because his music has no boundaries.
So the Boredoms aren't a "noise" band? Don't tell me they haven't added
elements of the noise genre into they're style. It's the classification of
music that puts all these barriers in our way from having open minds. That
is the one thing John Zorn has taught me (other than he's one hell of a
musician). Sorry to write so much, but it almost seems to me that Zorn fans
are revolting against Zorn with some of these posts.
   By the way, my original post asked if someone could give me a synopsis on
the new Zorn/Eye recordings. Since my post somehow immediately turned into a
thread about noise (which I never mentioned), I am asking again. I own
Mystic Fugu Orchestra and don't like it at all, I like almost everything of
Zorn's I've heard/own, same with Eye (minus UFO or DIE), I especially like
the NC/Boredoms material. Any comments on what new Zorn/Eye stuff to get, if
any? E-mail me direct or post on here if you think it's worthwhile.
   By the way, I do think a John Zorn/A.C. collaboration would be quite
nifty.

Matt Walsh
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 17 Jan 1996 08:32:47 -0800

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:20:28 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > From: John McMahon <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 21:07:18 EST
> >
> > 1. Is there anything that would link the music of Zorn to the music of
> > Braxton, and thus explain the appeal of one, to fans of the other?
> >
> [...]
>
> I think the most important similarity between Zorn and Braxton is the
> fact that they are both conceptual innovators who refuse to accept the
> boundaries enforced by various musical traditions.  Also, they are
> both composers who have mastered the important musical styles and
> innovations of the last few decades (and earlier) who are also very
> important saxophone soloists with influences spanning the history
> of the instrument.

I totally agree up to here.

> The game theory stuff goes back to the game pieces Xenakis wrote for
                             ^^^^^^^

Xenakis wrote a game piece? Could you dig your archives (or memory)
and tell me what is the name of this piece?

> orchestra in the 50s, and John Cage and Lejaren Hiller's HPSCHD, and I
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

HPSCHD was designed with the help of a computer and the listener could
"participate" in the "creative" process by following a score telling
him how to turn the volume/treble/bass on his amplifier. It does not
fit at all what I call a "game piece".

For me, HPSCHD has strictly nothing to do with a game piece.

Also, does anybody know of multiple versions of HPSCHD? To my knowledge
there is only one version of it on a record. My impression was that
by relying on an early computer during the composition process, HPSCHD
was "static" and "close", as opposed to "dynamic" and "open". I would
even be tempted to say that it is hard to find something as different
from a game piece as HPSCHD.

> think Braxton and Zorn both got the idea from them; Mozart also wrote
> a game piece but I'm not sure that was what influenced either Braxton

Are you sure it was not a piece about game :-).

> or Zorn.  Zorn and Braxton definitely know their Xenakis, Cage, and
> Stockhausen inside and out.

For Zorn, you might put Mauricio Kagel in first position.

The problem with Cage is that as soon as you compose out of C Major, there
will always be somebody to trace that to Cage. It is really becoming a
joke -- the number of people who put their music under Cage's umbrella.

The problem with Cage, is that more than often, when people talk about
his influence, they should specify "philosophical influence" on the
process of creation. As far as music is concerned, his influence is
totally overrated. Zorn ackowledges that Cage influenced him from a
creative point of view, but he is much quieter (to put it nicely)
about Cage's influence from a pure musical point of view. The concept
of composing based on random numbers, for example, is something Zorn
is not ready to digest (although he indulged in it during his youth).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 17 Jan 1996 08:48:33 -0800

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:08:09 -0400 (EDT)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Methinks that it is def. 2a that you describe. On the other hand, I
> implore you to examine the antonym "silence" which was so thoughtfully
> explored by Cage in the perhaps overplayed (but none less insightful)
> 4'33". Then will you will have further understanding as to what is
> sound (everything), what is noise (the unwanted), and silence (null, it
> doesn't exist.
>
> Because every sound on a recording is an element of the art form, just as
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You really believe that? Do you seriously believe that EVERY 44kHz sample
(on both channels) has been reviewed? The only situation where what you
describe might be close to be achieved is during recording of classical music
where a string quartet can play and play non-stop until the result is
close to perfection.

Most of what end up on a record is a complete mix on planned and unplanned
decisions. I don't know of any artist who would call art ANY moment on
one of his record.

Let's go back to earth, there is nothing magic about a record. As soon as
you can produce sounds (a given attribute to the human gender), you are a
potential candidate for a recording. Now, when do you call the result art
is the true question, and the answer has little to do with the availability
of a recording.

> sleeve art is a part of album art, none is unwanted (except perhaps,
> vinyl pops and tape hiss.). Even then, the "Mystic Fugu Orchestra" (a
> bizarrely annoying yet funny album despite what folks on this list
> refer to Zorn's "conservatism") is filled with vinyl pops and are those
> sounds unwanted? They are part of the artistic experience. It is in fact,
> rather conservative to refer to it as noise - sort of what they said
> about Jimi Hendrix' sound.
>
> I'm not trying to put anyone down, but references to this stuff as noise
> only demonstrates one's inability to comprehend or understand (of
> course you can still appreciate) the music or art form.
>
> 'Course there is a lot of crap out there that you shouldn't bother trying
> to comprehend...I just don't think that Zorn is part of it...

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joe Germuska)
Subject: Re: Braxton, feeling
Date: 17 Jan 1996 12:53:49 -0600

Well, most of what I might have replied to the question about relationships
between Braxton and Zorn has been well stated already, and in fact better
than I would have done it.

as for the feeling part, I'll just reiterate these two comments:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Braxton, feeling
Date: 17 Jan 1996 12:53:49 -0600

>to discount the importance of emotion in their works is perhaps more a
>statement about the capacity of the listener than of the music.

and

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: Braxton, feeling
Date: 17 Jan 1996 12:53:49 -0600

>>In other words - does what I feel when I listen to this music MATTER?
>
>it's the only thing that matters, in the end.

and point folks to Graham Lock's "Forces in Motion", a tour diary of the
Braxton Quartet's 1985 british tour with much interview material and other
fascinating information that has made Braxton's music much more interesting
to me.

In the book, Braxton and his fellow musicians express disappointment and
even offense at the idea that their music is sterile and without emotion.
It just doesn't use the conventional triggers to which most listeners
respond.  Some music takes more commitment than others to be really
appreciated.

joe, who is in the mode after seeing two of Braxton's collaborators last
weekend (Marilyn Crispell/Joseph Jarman)


- --
Joe Germuska * Learning Technologies Group * Northwestern University
[e-mail] * http://www.nwu.edu/people/j-germuska
"The man who owned the bookstore was not magic.  He was not a three-legged
crow on the dandelion side of the mountain."  - Richard Brautigan




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 17 Jan 1996 14:12:38 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Herb Levy wrote:

> >explored by Cage in the perhaps overplayed (but none less insightful)
> >4'33". Then will you will have further understanding as to what is
> >sound (everything), what is noise (the unwanted), and silence (null, it
> >doesn't exist.
>
> While Cage's 4'33" MAY be over-discussed, it sure ain't overplayed.  Most
> people still spend far too much time hearing & not enough time listening.

You know, I just can't fathom anyone listening to 4'33" (silence) and not
figuring out that you have to listen and not hear. Actually - I take that
back - if it is a recording you might. But I still think that this takes
incredible stupidity to give it a spin and still not pick up his thesis.
Anyhow - I ran a search of the Oberlin COnservatory libraries and found
18 CD-recordings with references to the piece. Conusidering that it
should take only one listening to get it, I'd say that it is overplayed.
But then again, maybe I have spent too much time (the past 5 years) in
the con.

- -Pete
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=
 Peter T. Chen                              [e-mail]
 Information Resource Specialist                      OC '95
 Dept. of Biological Sciences          (Obviously, I'm no longer in Ohio. I
 Stanford University            just keep the email warm here...)
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 17 Jan 1996 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> > Because every sound on a recording is an element of the art form, just as
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You really believe that? Do you seriously believe that EVERY 44kHz sample
> (on both channels) has been reviewed? The only situation where what you

No Patrice, I don't believe that every molecular wave has been "reviewed"
- - that's why I think that there are a lot of crappy sound engineers out
there. But I do believe in all sound, intentional and unintentional, as
being part of the art. Give Cage a listen again - from your posts I
imagine you to be well versed in Avant-Gard - and consider his thesis on
sound. I'm not going to waste bandwidth explaining but there have been
countless essays by musicology students on the impact of Chance music's
observations on sound engineering.

> describe might be close to be achieved is during recording of classical music
> where a string quartet can play and play non-stop until the result is
> close to perfection.

Well, if your intention is to perfect a particular sound is then, yes.
Different musicians have differing opinions as to what they are concerned
about hearing in their recordings - those who give more thought and
observation to their technique, as well as the engineer's technique,
IMHO, are the greater artists because they are interested in perfection.
And you don't have to just be a classical musician to be concerned with
that.

>
> Most of what end up on a record is a complete mix on planned and unplanned
> decisions. I don't know of any artist who would call art ANY moment on
> one of his record.

Again, think about what Chance music composers tried to tell us.

> Let's go back to earth, there is nothing magic about a record. As soon as
> you can produce sounds (a given attribute to the human gender), you are a
> potential candidate for a recording. Now, when do you call the result art
> is the true question, and the answer has little to do with the availability
> of a recording.

This complete paragraph is beyond my comprehension. What the fuck does
producing sound have to do with one's gender? As to art being the true
question...you've just stepped in the PHILOSOPHICAL DISCOURSE ZONE!!!
Answer privately to me Patrice, I don't want to drag anyone else into
this if they don't want to read it.

That brings me to my next PSA...Folks, it would be most kind - when you
reply to another person's posts - to check the "To:" and "CC:" lines and
delete everything except  "[e-mail]". That saves us
recipients from getting multiple copies of your letters. This is most
annoying when you send a really bad flame.

- -Pete
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=
 Peter T. Chen                              [e-mail]
 Information Resource Specialist                      OC '95
 Dept. of Biological Sciences          (Obviously, I'm no longer in Ohio. I
 Stanford University            just keep the email warm here...)
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Ray Peck)
Subject: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #4
Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:48:19 -0800

>> I'm looking for some mailing lists on the following groups:
>>     *Henry Cow
>>     *Art Bears
>>     *The Work
>>     *S.P.K.
>>     *Throbbing Gristel  <<<  Gristle ?
>>     *Popolu Vhu         <<<  Popul Vuh ?
>
>Most of these groups are regularly discussed on rec.music.progressive.

I would also point the author to the Gibralter (prog) and nm-list
(mostly noisy) lists:

>*   WWW:    http://www.museum.tulane.edu/pub/gibraltar/gibraltar.html        *

>    subscribe nm-list-digest
>
>in the body of a message to "[e-mail]".


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: HPSCHD
Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:48:19 -0800

patrice:

> Also, does anybody know of multiple versions of HPSCHD? To my knowledge
> there is only one version of it on a record. My impression was that
> by relying on an early computer during the composition process, HPSCHD
> was "static" and "close", as opposed to "dynamic" and "open"

HPSCHD was performed many times on a tour of college campuses. your remarks
about the closed/static nature of the piece are only partially accurate. the
piece has many elements among them is a computer generated tape of microtonal
music, which is, of course, the same every time. to this is added a slew of
harpsichordists playing different mozart pieces. these will never twice
relate the same way to one another nor to the tape. all this is then intended
to be heard while wandering around inside the very large performance space to
get a number of different aural perspectives. i beleieve they usually showed
nasa films if possible, and supposedly the audience contributed significantly
to the experience just by being there, wandering around and grumbling and
laughing.

not exactly what i would call a static composition. however, it certainly
doesn't qualify as a game piece, as you pointed out.

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: xenakis
Date: 17 Jan 1996 10:55:17 GMT

>> The game theory stuff goes back to the game pieces Xenakis wrote for
                             ^^^^^^^

> Xenakis wrote a game piece? Could you dig your archives (or memory)
> and tell me what is the name of this piece?

perhaps this was a reference to the playful nature of "Terretektorh" or
"Nomos Gamma" where the orchestra is scattered throughout the audience.

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steev Hise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dr. Nerve
Date: 17 Jan 1996 11:55:37 -0800 (PST)

There was some talk of Dr. Nerve a little while back.
Just for further info, they have an excellent web site at:
http://www.ingress.com/~drnerve/

________________________________________________________________
Steev Hise
Composition/New Media Program,    CalArts
[e-mail]         http://music.calarts.edu/~steev/
======================================================================
"I think music is an instrument.  It can create the initial thought
 patterns that can change the thinking of people."
           -John Coltrane
======================================================================



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steev Hise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Book of Heads
Date: 17 Jan 1996 12:04:51 -0800 (PST)

I just obtained Book of Heads yesterday and think its incredible.
Someone mentioned that Eugene Chadbourne was not asked by Zorn
to do the recording.  Anyone know why?
The interesting and amazing thing is that the pieces sound like
Chadbourne. So I guess that means Zorn succeeded in the task he
had set for himself- compose solo guitar music that uses the
extended techniques that Chadbourne pioneered.

Another question:  In the liner notes Zorn thanks the engineer
for his "proficiency on the Synclavier."  Anyone know what this means?
Why would they need a synclavier when recording solo guitar?

It'd be great to see the entire score for Book of Heads.  Any ideas?

________________________________________________________________
Steev Hise
Composition/New Media Program,    CalArts
[e-mail]         http://music.calarts.edu/~steev/
======================================================================
"I think music is an instrument.  It can create the initial thought
 patterns that can change the thinking of people."
           -John Coltrane
======================================================================



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mozart's "game piece"
Date: 17 Jan 1996 15:18:08 -0400 (EDT)

[a goddamn awful lot of snipping. People, please mind the length of your
replies and trim the repost. If we were at all interested in the thread,
we read it the first time...]

> > think Braxton and Zorn both got the idea from them; Mozart also wrote
> > a game piece but I'm not sure that was what influenced either Braxton
>
> Are you sure it was not a piece about game :-).

The Mozart "game piece" was a sort of demonstration that he did to show
how simple it was to break down the musical form (i.e. 1st theme, 2ndry
theme, coda, exposition, etc.). Memory fails me a bit but I seem to
recall someone telling me that it was also meant as an educational tool,
appropriately enough. Anyhow, Mozart composed a whole bunch of little
snippets (in Gmajor I believe) and I think that it is in Sonata form - a
logical assumption based on Mozart;'s preferred form. Anyhow, you roll
dice to determine each section of the piece - not too exciting after a
while but I think that Mozart proved his point. I've only seen it written
for piano and you can easily find the score (plus a pair of dice) in any
sheet music store. If you're looking for a recording - I doubt there
would be one - it's really a children's piece.

- -Pete
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=
 Peter T. Chen                              [e-mail]
 Information Resource Specialist                      OC '95
 Dept. of Biological Sciences          (Obviously, I'm no longer in Ohio. I
 Stanford University            just keep the email warm here...)
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: xenakis
Date: 17 Jan 1996 12:19:57 -0800

On 17 Jan 1996 10:55:17 GMT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >> The game theory stuff goes back to the game pieces Xenakis wrote for
>                              ^^^^^^^
>
> > Xenakis wrote a game piece? Could you dig your archives (or memory)
> > and tell me what is the name of this piece?
>
> perhaps this was a reference to the playful nature of "Terretektorh" or
> "Nomos Gamma" where the orchestra is scattered throughout the audience.

If it is the case, the initial poster has no idea at all of what a "game
piece" is (or maybe it's me :-). Do people agree that a "game piece" is
a piece using some elements from game strategy (I am too squeamish to
make reference to the awesome "game theory")?

Up to now, here are the following interpretations I heard of (sounds
like a great test for being admitted to the list :-):

    Q - what is a game piece?

    1/ piece whose rules are derived from game strategy (game theory)
    2/ piece whose execution is open (a small portion of what is played
       is written)
    3/ piece where performers have a lot of fun
    4/ piece featuring game calls
    5/ piece related hunting and game

    Patrice (who's in a funny mood today).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: plantarm <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]
Date: 17 Jan 1996 14:52:28 -0500 (EST)

Curiously, it seems to me that Zorn's penchant for free and unencumbered
thinking has not entirely carried over here.  I noticed two assertions on
the list recently that I would like to address.

1. Categories are intrinsically "bad" in music.

Granted, Zorn talks a lot about musical "racism" and does a lot to counter
that trend, by playing all genres at once, adjacently, or in different
projects.  Racism, however, is not a self-defining term; it implies (to me)
simply a tendency to view genre as exclusive, both in itself and for the
musician(s).  Which brings me to my point: why is genrefication so reviled?
I'll grant, it CAN lead to racism, but I don't think it's logically
necessary.  If a genre is defined in terms of its unifying sounds and
philosophy, then there is a need for its existence as a hisotorical model
within music
and possibly as a pragmatic (useful) descriptive tool.  Proposing that
a world where all music is simply "music" is perhaps not ideal, at face
value or on any other level; i.e. negative trends in classification
may result from a variable independent from the classifications themselves.
Even avid Zornophiles (which we all are, it seems) talk about the genres
Zorn uses in a given project or recording; it's a handy reference point, a
good descriptive tool.  Moreover, it is accurate even in Zorn.  He eliminates
genre racism by bringing them together, not by literally eliminating them
altogether.
In my opinion, genrefication is only harmful when the boundaries are taken
to be more than illusory, or when genres are used as trend-tags, i.e. when
it functions as something other than what it is by itself.

2. Zorn's music represents our insta-culture and is much like flipping TV
channels.  It plays to our short attention spans.

I don't want to contest this so much as point out that few, if any, valid
arguments have been posed for it.  Zorn sees his own music that way, as
do a few critics; this has translated into thousands of well-read
Zorn buffs reciting it like it was Biblical (a metaphor-- no religious
significance meant).  In other words, why do we so often take this
translation of Zorn for granted?  I'm not certain I would have picked
that out had I not been told.  It's something of a political or
cultural statement, definitely; and yet the music, it seems to me,
is not often OVERTLY politically or culturally REFLECTIVE.  When I hear
Zorn, I hear the rapid shifts in textures and ideas, but I don't see it
(or hear it) as a metaphor for my generation's declining attention span;
I hear it as shocking, refreshing, disturbing, unique, structurally
defining, compositionally new, whatever.  It can strike a person many
different ways, besides those which Zorn has prescribed for us.  Besides,
the artist is frequently his own worse judge, missing some of the
best implications and sticking to the ones that particularly motivated
HIM (or her, or whatever).  Not that Zorn is unqualified to judge
himself, but here's a case in point: a former of professor of mine did
a workshop with Zorn on Cobra.  It struck my professor that Zorn was
interested in the sounds Cobra produced, almost to the exclusion of
what really fascinated my prof: the social dynamic, i.e. the players'
interaction.  Now this may or may not have been the case-- I wasn't
there-- but it illustrates how opinions can differ on the most important
aspects of a good piece of music.  And if we read Zorn a little differently
than Zorn reads himself, it isn't going to kill us or him.  We may, in fact,
learn something useful from it.

Thanks for your time

Plantarm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Braxton
Date: 17 Jan 1996 15:41:14 -0500

> Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:32:47 -0800
> From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>

[...]
> Xenakis wrote a game piece? Could you dig your archives (or memory)
> and tell me what is the name of this piece?

Two pieces, both for orchestra: "Duel" and "Strategie".  There's a
very good book on Xenakis by Nouritza Matossian that was recently
republished in the states.  One of these pieces is (was?) available
on CD on the Varese Sarabande label.

The biggest difference between these pieces and Zorn's is that in
the Xenakis pieces, the conductors (two) are the only "players",
whereas in Cobra for example, everyone is a "player".

Xenakis was the first (to my knowledge) to use the game as a generator
of forms in real time;  Zorn was the first (again to my knowledge) to
use the game as a way to structure improvisation.

[...]
>
> For me, HPSCHD has strictly nothing to do with a game piece.

There were game rules used to generate the harpsichord parts that I
believe derived from Mozart's game piece.  But in the sense that there
is no "game" being "played" in the performance you are absolutely
correct here.

[...]
> > think Braxton and Zorn both got the idea from them; Mozart also wrote
> > a game piece but I'm not sure that was what influenced either Braxton
>
> Are you sure it was not a piece about game :-).

Nope.  It's a system for writing waltzes organized as a game.  It uses
dice.  It is different than a "game" piece in the sense of the Xenakis
or Zorn works.  It's more like Cage's Music of Changes in that respect.

>
> > or Zorn.  Zorn and Braxton definitely know their Xenakis, Cage, and
> > Stockhausen inside and out.
>
> For Zorn, you might put Mauricio Kagel in first position.

Certainly.  I was only trying to indicate the fact that Zorn, like any
educated composer, is fully aware of the works of these fellows, not
imply any order on their influence.  Kagel is definitely someone for
Zorn fans to check out!

>
> The problem with Cage is that as soon as you compose out of C Major, there
> will always be somebody to trace that to Cage. It is really becoming a
> joke -- the number of people who put their music under Cage's umbrella.
>
> The problem with Cage, is that more than often, when people talk about
> his influence, they should specify "philosophical influence" on the
> process of creation. As far as music is concerned, his influence is
> totally overrated. Zorn ackowledges that Cage influenced him from a
> creative point of view, but he is much quieter (to put it nicely)
> about Cage's influence from a pure musical point of view. The concept
> of composing based on random numbers, for example, is something Zorn
> is not ready to digest (although he indulged in it during his youth).

Cage's most important influence for lots of people, including Zorn and
Boulez, was to plant the idea that musical forms can be created by any
process the composer is prepared to imagine.  I would cite Music for
Changes, composed using the I Ching, as an example of this.  Cage also
deserves credit for the influence his prepared piano pieces and his
silent piece has had on not only Zorn, but any serious musician who has
encountered them.  The guy changed music forever, like it or not.

Where many composers object to Cage is with his concept of indeterminacy,
which can be seen as an abdication of the responsibility of the
composer.  Many of them have quite nasty things to say about Cage in
that area, but that does not diminish the importance of his other
ideas.  It is perfectly consistent to be influenced by them and at the
same time be of the opinion that Cage's music sucks.

Andrew
>
>     Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: game theory
Date: 17 Jan 1996 16:02:52 -0500

Zorn's game pieces are only very loosely based on game theory - game theory
itself is much more rigid, and deals with plays based on expectations of
the other players' rationale. It also has expectant outcomes. So COBRA, et
al., are not necessarilly game theory pieces, though they definitely should
be called game pieces (as they are) based on the similarity and also the
playful, cooperative nature of the improvisation.

Matthew Ross Davis, Webmaestro                  HuskyLabs
[e-mail]                            [phone]
mailto:[e-mail] (NetscapeMail)   12C Parkway Dr.
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart/mdavis/         Greenbelt, MD 20770




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Strauss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5
Date: 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)

So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mozart's "game piece"
Date: 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)

>theme, coda, exposition, etc.). Memory fails me a bit but I seem to
>recall someone telling me that it was also meant as an educational tool,

Here is the (unverified, I think) quote:

       "Anleitung
       Walzer oder Schleifer mit 2 W=FCrfeln zu componieren,
       ohne Musikalisch zu seyn,
       noch von der Composition etwas zu verstehen..."

Translation:

       "Instruction
       to compose a waltz or a slurred note with two dice,
       without being musically gifted,
       nor knowing anything about composition"
       W.A. Mozart

=46or more information, see http://www.butterfly.net/neoism/squares/mozart.h=
tml

>logical assumption based on Mozart;'s preferred form. Anyhow, you roll

Well, probably not so much that it was a preferred form of Mozart, but a
developing and popular form to write a first movement in - in fact, it was
a standard for first movements in many cases.

>sheet music store. If you're looking for a recording - I doubt there
>would be one - it's really a children's piece.

I'm sure there is one somewhere!

Matthew Ross Davis, Webmaestro                  HuskyLabs
[e-mail]                            [phone]
mailto:[e-mail] (NetscapeMail)   12C Parkway Dr.
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart/mdavis/         Greenbelt, MD 20770




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Book of Heads
Date: 17 Jan 1996 13:30:11 +48000

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Steev Hise wrote:

>
> Another question:  In the liner notes Zorn thanks the engineer
> for his "proficiency on the Synclavier."  Anyone know what this means?
> Why would they need a synclavier when recording solo guitar?

Sounds to me like they had to do a bunck of editing to get it right,
based on that note.  Seems strangely un-Zornlike.

Bob
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 17 Jan 1996 16:41:14 -0500

> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
>
[...]
> > describe might be close to be achieved is during recording of classical music
> > where a string quartet can play and play non-stop until the result is
> > close to perfection.
>
> Well, if your intention is to perfect a particular sound is then, yes.
> Different musicians have differing opinions as to what they are concerned
> about hearing in their recordings - those who give more thought and
> observation to their technique, as well as the engineer's technique,
> IMHO, are the greater artists because they are interested in perfection.
> And you don't have to just be a classical musician to be concerned with
> that.
>

Instrumental technique and recording engineering technique are
completely different things, and neither one necessarily has a bearing
on artistic quality.

Instrumental technique has almost nothing to do with whether the
person is playing music.  I've seen musicians who could barely play
their instruments produce great music, and monster technicians produce
absolute crap.  Thinking about instrumental technique while recording
is a sure way to get a perfectly dead recording.  Once Miles told John
McLaughlin that he had to forget how to play guitar to play the piece
he was recording.

Also, depending on the artistic goals of the recording, certain
"substandard" recording techniques might be used.  Witness the whole
"lo-fi" movement.  Not to mention the enduring importance of historic
recordings.  I'd rather listen to a crappy recording of Bartok playing
his own music than some "perfect" recording because no one plays the
piano like he did.  Same thing goes for Thelonius Monk and a zillion
other musicians whose recordings are less than perfect.

I'm not trying to say that you can't be a perfectionist to create
great art (Zorn is and does) but that's certainly not the only way
either.

Andrew



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5
Date: 17 Jan 1996 13:50:56 -0800

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
> Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
> even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
> Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)

Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a Zorn
point of view).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: 4:33
Date: 17 Jan 1996 13:50:56 -0800

peter chen:

>I ran a search of the Oberlin COnservatory libraries and found
>18 CD-recordings with references to the piece.

meaning there are 18 cds with "4:33" on them?!

>Conusidering that it
>should take only one listening to get it, I'd say that it is overplayed.

hmm. so beyond "getting it" music has no value to you?

>But then again, maybe I have spent too much time (the past 5 years) in
>the con.

indeed.


shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Genre surfing
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:32:46 -0500

Here are some musings on how Zorn's jump cut style
fits in with modern classical music.

Originally what got me thinking about this was the
genre collage methods used by composers like Luciano
Berio and William Bolcom in the sixties, which derived
from Stravinsky's writing method of using small blocks
of music and forming a collage of them.  Both Berio and
Bolcom would superimpose musical genres in the same
piece.  Berio would superimpose music from different
historical eras (Sinfonia) or different genres (avant
garde classical music, tape music and jazz in Laborintus
II);  Bolcom would superimpose radically different styles
(Balinese ketjak and Chopinesque Barcarolle in the Piano
Quartet, or avant garde classical music, renaissance music
and ragtime in Black Host).  Come to think of it, Penderecki's
fusion of church music of differing eras in the St. Luke
Passion and Utreja is somewhat related too.  Anyway, I think
most or all of these composers were influenced by cubist
painting in using collage forms in music.

What's interesting about Zorn's particular use of the
technique is that he's more influenced by cinema and cartoons
where the scenes/genres go by at a much faster rate.  Zorn
probably represents the most interesting use of cinema
derived forms in composition since Elliott Carter (his first
String Quartet from the late 50s used a form derived from
the films of Eisenstein, along with James Joyce's writings).

Also of course there is a continuity between Zorn's use
of jump-cuts that SOUND like tape edits, and the pioneering
uses of tape editing by folks like Berio and Mario Davidovsky,
who is someone I would definitely recommend to Zorn fans
(the tape studies and early Synchronisms series especially,
all on CRI vinyl).  Of course what makes Zorn's jump cuts so
successful is that they are not tape edits, but in fact composed,
deliberate transitions.

Andrew




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Strauss" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)

> > So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
> > Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
> > even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
> > Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)
>
> Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a Zorn
> point of view).

I have to admit that I found the first disc pretty "eh", although I'm
looking forward to the Zorn/Joe Chambers duet on CD 2, as Chambers is one
of the all-time great drummers (at least he was during the 1960s).
Patrice, do you know any of the background around the sessions, and why
Zorn became dissillusioned (I think I can hazard a guess based on the
recorded results so far--though he does seem pretty happy in the promo
shots).

DS


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nick Roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5  -Reply
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)

If he hates these sessions, then why is he now doing them more
frequently than ever before?  Certainly he isn't that much of a
masochist...

>>> Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]> - 1/17/96 1:50 PM
>>>

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>  > So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead
playing on  > Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_
on Evidence? He  > even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz,
Archie Shepp, David Murray,  > Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison
(?!)

Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a
Zorn point of view).

#Patrice.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5 -Reply
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:15:52 -0800  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> If he hates these sessions, then why is he now doing them more
> frequently than ever before?  Certainly he isn't that much of a
> masochist...

What do you mean by that? This "new" record on Evidence (a 2xCD) is
in fact a reissue of the King (Japan):

139 - SAX LEGENDS VOLUME 1 (1993 - King Records/Paddle Wheel, KICJ 139 (CD))
140 - SAX LEGENDS VOLUME 2 (1993 - King Records/Paddle Wheel, KICJ 140 (CD))

All that material was recorded during a three day period in 1992 (case
for all the material, I doubt Zorn spent three days in studio for only
three tracks).

What other equivalent material do you have in mind?

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #5
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> > > So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
> > > Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
> > > even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
> > > Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)
> >
> > Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a Zorn
> > point of view).
>
> I have to admit that I found the first disc pretty "eh", although I'm
> looking forward to the Zorn/Joe Chambers duet on CD 2, as Chambers is one
> of the all-time great drummers (at least he was during the 1960s).
> Patrice, do you know any of the background around the sessions, and why
> Zorn became dissillusioned (I think I can hazard a guess based on the
> recorded results so far--though he does seem pretty happy in the promo
> shots).

No idea exactly of what happened. My feeling is that these sessions
look a lot like a producer gimmick targetting a bored audience (you
know plenty of prestigious names of artists who do not have to much
to say to each others, but because they are paid and are true pro-
fessional...). Sounds enough to me to gauge the project as suspect :-).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Humblest Apologies
Date: 17 Jan 1996 17:41:35 -0500 (EST)

yes, I did realize that I sent a stupid message to the entire list. Hit the
wrong button, ya know. I am sorry. I asked the list-owner to kill it, but I
guess it was too late. Sorry for the confusion.

Joe Janecek


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 17 Jan 1996 21:14:23 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Andrew J. Wilson wrote:
[snip]
> > Different musicians have differing opinions as to what they are concerned
> > about hearing in their recordings - those who give more thought and
> > observation to their technique, as well as the engineer's technique,
> > IMHO, are the greater artists because they are interested in perfection.
> > And you don't have to just be a classical musician to be concerned with
> > that.
> >
>
> Instrumental technique and recording engineering technique are
> completely different things, and neither one necessarily has a bearing
> on artistic quality.

I never said, nor implied, that they were _not_ different things (where
did you pull that idea?). And yes way, they do have bearing on artistic
quality. Folks, maybe we are a bit too young to realize how recording
actually changed the experience of music. Anything you hear on a
recording is a completely different artistic experience from hearing it in
some concert hall, or some seedy club, or in a practice room. Even "live"
recordings are a different experience. And we rely on the engineers'
technique to bring that to us as much as we rely on selecting a fine pair
of bose speakers and the room that we listen to it in. Maybe you don't
give a shit - you like to hear it on a two bit radio in a tin can - that
is still part of the artistic experience. There is a reason why Wagner
demanded that his works be performed at Bayreuth and at Bayreuth only. In
fact, let me emphasize - Gesamkunstwerk - "total art work" - something
that all artists have to accept is how they want their work presented -
and those musicians who give a shit about how their recordings are
produces understand this.

> Instrumental technique has almost nothing to do with whether the
> person is playing music.  I've seen musicians who could barely play
> their instruments produce great music, and monster technicians produce

That is opinion. That is not fact. Anyhow, technique has to do with how
you prepare to play the music. And if lack of experience helps a musician
make great music , then that _is_ their technique.

> absolute crap.  Thinking about instrumental technique while recording
> is a sure way to get a perfectly dead recording.  Once Miles told John
> McLaughlin that he had to forget how to play guitar to play the piece
> he was recording.

Um, no shit Sherlock? Sorry to get cheeky. Like I said, technique is
about preparation - not performance so I agree with you, Miles, and
perhaps now John 100%. Look, technique is not about obsessing that you
can play Wieniawski's Scherzo as fast as Jasha Heifetz did - neither is
it about being consistent. But, if you are at all interested in knowing
what you are throwing out to the public, you god damn better well
understand that it is your technique that got you there.

> Also, depending on the artistic goals of the recording, certain
> "substandard" recording techniques might be used.  Witness the whole
> "lo-fi" movement.  Not to mention the enduring importance of historic
> recordings.  I'd rather listen to a crappy recording of Bartok playing
> his own music than some "perfect" recording because no one plays the
> piano like he did.  Same thing goes for Thelonius Monk and a zillion
> other musicians whose recordings are less than perfect.

I'm sorry - perhaps somewhere I gave you the impression that "perfection"
meant being "anal". I can't imagine where I might have written that since
I certainly don't believe it. Perfect - true to one's form or technique.
How does that work? You can strive to play a piece to perfection and you
can strive to perfect the way your shit rolls down to the bottom of the
toilet. You can try to perfect the wheel and you can try to perfect
genocide.

> I'm not trying to say that you can't be a perfectionist to create
> great art (Zorn is and does) but that's certainly not the only way

Andrew, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Explain how you see Zorn to be a
perfectionist. I know how I see him to be one. I am curious as to how you
take a guy who does only one studio take on his recordings, to be a
perfectionist. Please, no one else answer this one until he does! I'm not
trying to embarrass you Andrew, I'm just tring to figure what it is that
you see about his technique that makes him a perfectionist where others
don't have to. Besides, I am tired of how this thread has deviated from
the artist in point to questions of musical technique - something that
you don't need to appreciate nor understand to discuss in this group. SO,
if you want to run this thread into the ground, do so privately. The
topic is now:    WHY I THINK JOHN ZORN IS A PERFECTIONIST AND GREAT ARTIST.
            by John Adams, 3rd grade

- -Pete
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=
 Peter T. Chen                              [e-mail]
 Information Resource Specialist                      OC '95
 Dept. of Biological Sciences          (Obviously, I'm no longer in Ohio. I
 Stanford University            just keep the email warm here...)
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 4:33
Date: 17 Jan 1996 21:32:26 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, John Shiurba wrote:

[snip]
> >Conusidering that it
> >should take only one listening to get it, I'd say that it is overplayed.
>
> hmm. so beyond "getting it" music has no value to you?

When it comes to 4'33", yes. Many other works, no. That was the point that I
was making about how I think this piece is overplayed.  (perhaps,
overlistened is better.) I have no interest in hearing how many different
interpretations of this piece there are (even if Zorn does it) and if I
recall correctly, Cage did say at one point how tired he was of it
because the message was more important than the content.

Nonetheless John, I am at a loss for words as to how you might
extrapolate my opinion of music in general based on my comments on
one particular piece. Frankly, I'm offended since I've observed more
mature comments from you before.

- -Pete
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=
 Peter T. Chen                              [e-mail]
 Information Resource Specialist                      OC '95
 Dept. of Biological Sciences          (Obviously, I'm no longer in Ohio. I
 Stanford University            just keep the email warm here...)
=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=_=-=



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Shawn W Coleman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Digest problems?
Date: 17 Jan 1996 20:00:01 -0500 (EST)

Why am I getting both digests and individual posts right now?  Anybody
else, and can I correct it?

                        --Evilshawn


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Digest problems?
Date: 17 Jan 1996 20:00:01 -0500 (EST)

Shawn Coleman wrote:

>Why am I getting both digests and individual posts right now?  Anybody
>else, and can I correct it?
>
>                                                --Evilshawn


You should be able to send the message:

<unsubscribe zorn-list>

to

<[e-mail]>

and still remain subscribed to the digest version of the list.

For anyone who is still unsure about how to get this list in digest form
instead of one or two messages every fifteen minutes, send the message:

<subscribe zorn-list-digest>

to the same address.  DO NOT unsubscribe from the individual message format
until you are sure that you are getting the digest form, because in
majordomo you cannot subscribe to a list in digest form unless youare
already subscribed to the list.

The way that majordomo works is not particularly intuitive, but this should
do it.

Bests


Herb Levy
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 02:30:08 -0500

 I remember reading about the new Buckethead release, to be on Axiom,
a week or so ago.  But then I also remember reading in Zorn digest #115
this post from Patrice regarding new Avant releases:

(excerpt)
>53 - PLAYS DISNEY: Buckethead (???? - Avant, Avan 053 (CD))
>54 - ??? - Buckethead (not released - Avant, Avan 054 (CD))

So what gives with these?  Are they for real?  I called Sphere and they
didn't know anything
about a new Buckethead cd.  Just curious, thanks.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tkorpipa <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Book of Heads
Date: 18 Jan 1996 10:30:10 +0200 (GMT+0200)

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Bob Boster wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Steev Hise wrote:
> >=20
> > Another question:  In the liner notes Zorn thanks the engineer
> > for his "proficiency on the Synclavier."  Anyone know what this means?
> > Why would they need a synclavier when recording solo guitar?
>=20
> Sounds to me like they had to do a bunck of editing to get it right,=20
> based on that note.  Seems strangely un-Zornlike.
>=20
> Bob
> [e-mail]

It may be worth poining out that there are many degrees in the use of=20
digital editing (what the use of synclavier seems to be on this album, I=20
haven=ABt heard it). Every record (I=ABve been the recording engineer and=
=20
digital editor of this kind on a couple of albums) has to be edited from=20
the two-track master to the final master (with correct gaps between=20
songs, etc...) before pressing. It may be done by splicing the tape or,=20
as it seems to be more and more, by using a digital workstation of some=20
sort. Synclavier is one possible machine. Of course, this kind of editing=
=20
can be also used to =ABdoctor=AB the final product by merging two different=
=20
takes into one what uses the best parts from both, or to take out the=20
boring parts from a 47 minute improvisation to get a three-minute one=20
with nothing but =ABgood=AB playing. Etc, etc... Somebody consider this kin=
d=20
of editing cheating. I personally think that it=ABs just the same: it=ABs t=
he=20
final product that matters. I couldn=ABt care less if I would know for=20
certaing that =ABSpeedball=AB is edited from 39 different takes. I like it=
=20
because of the way it sounds. Amen.

Teemu


=09=09from: Teemu ---> [e-mail]
======================================================================
=09'I can't forget...
   =09      but I don't remember what'
=09=09     -Leonard Cohen-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: a concert that's not at the Knitting Factory
Date: 18 Jan 1996 04:06:10 -0500

Howdy!
I want to answer some of the questions about the John Zorn Festival at New
England Concervatory.
1. NEC as located on the corner of Huntington Ave and Gainsborough St. in the
Backbay/Fenway area of Boston. The NC stuff will be in Brown Hall which is a
recital hall in NEC's main building. Go in the main door towards Jordan Hall.
Turn right and go allthe way around the building untill you find some stairs.
Go down them and you're there. Ask Directions.
2.The NC stuff will be on the 5th of Feb but there will be concerts
throughout the 5th and 6th. Yes, Monday and Tuesday. All the shows are free
so there is of course no way of getting tix in advance.
3. While John Zorn WILL NOT be performing he will be in attendance.

I think showtime will be around 8:00 PM but the only thing I know for sure
about this thing is that is that the details can change at any time. I
definitely post as much program info as I can as soon as I get it myself.

Mason Wendell


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jake Rodriguez <[e-mail]>
Subject: West Coast Masada
Date: 18 Jan 1996 01:11:43 -0800 (PST)

Sorry, meant to get to this a little earlier, but:

Patrice--what exactly did you mean by "there will be no west coast Masada?"
No recordings?
No more collaborations? live or otherwise?
In any case, thanks for clarifying this bad news.

By the way, as much as I have enjoyed the new format of the list (it's
great to check my mail every night and see the day's dialog), things are
getting a bit tense around here.  It seems like a great deal of the
posts, while well-written, are half about the topic and half about
one-upping.  There is some of the best and most intelligent discussion
going on right now since I've been a subscriber, though, so something is
going well and something is going not so well. Maybe it will iron itself
out like someone suggested, but it just seems like people are being extra
touchy about what other people are saying--just because they JUST said it.
Or maybe we're all having high-stress weeks (I know I am).
Jake ([e-mail])




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Denman Maroney <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:21:42 -0500

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail](Denman F. Maroney)
Subject: 2 basses
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:21:42 -0500

Andrew Hill also used two basses in one of his early sixties Bluenote
recordings.
- --
Denman Maroney


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Denman F. Maroney)
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:57:46 -0500

On Jan 17, 1996 15:41:14, '"Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>' wrote:


>Xenakis was the first (to my knowledge) to use the game as a generator of
forms
>in real time;  Zorn was the first (again to my knowledge) to use the game
as a
>way to structure improvisation.

Earle Brown might have beat him to it with Available Forms I (1961).  To
quote the liner notes by Massimo Mila from the LP "The New Music" by Rome
Symphony Orch. under Bruno Maderna: "The score consists of six loose pages
with four or five 'events' on each page. The conductor may begin with any
'event' on any page and continue from one page to another, with or without
repetitions and omissions of 'events' and pages, combining them any way he
wants and stopping on any page and any 'event' he chooses. In the
orchestra, all six pages of parts can be seen at the same time by the
performers, and the conductor indicates where they are to play by moving an
arrow around on a large board, placed in full view of all performers and
bearing the numbers 1 to 6."

Then again Cage was probably doing this sort of thing before 1961; I don't
know. Does this qualify as a game piece? Certainly it's aleatoric. Does the
game have to be mathematical like Pascal's triangle or something?
__
Denman Maroney


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Denman F. Maroney)
Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
Date: 18 Jan 1996 09:16:54 -0500

It seems to me that without instrumental technique you can't say what you
want to say. Some people think Monk didn't have good instrumental
technique, but Monk could play chords in which each note had a different
dynamic. He did it deliberately, too, I'm sure, i.e. he thought about it as
he was doing it. Thought does not preclude emotion.

It also seems to me that without recording engineering technique you can't
get the sound you want - low fi, hi fi, or whatever. It takes a lot of
technique to make a hi fi recording sound low fi.

On Jan 17, 1996 16:41:14, '"Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>' wrote:


>Instrumental technique and recording engineering technique are completely

>different things, and neither one necessarily has a bearing on artistic
>quality.
- --
Denman Maroney


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 07:22:52 -0800

The new Buckethead release will be on Sub Meta, not on Axiom.  I don't
think Caroline has sent out any information on the release, so it is
unlikely that any stores will know about it yet.  Look for it at the end of
February, if everything happens on time.

I heard two tracks in the studio while it was being recorded, both of which
sounded closer to _Transmutation_ than anything else, but I have not yet
heard final mixes.  I should get a tape next week and post on it.

Bill Laswell plays bass, I don't recall the name of the guy who did the
drum tracks.

> I remember reading about the new Buckethead release, to be on Axiom,
>a week or so ago.  But then I also remember reading in Zorn digest #115
>this post from Patrice regarding new Avant releases:
>
>(excerpt)
>>53 - PLAYS DISNEY: Buckethead (???? - Avant, Avan 053 (CD))
>>54 - ??? - Buckethead (not released - Avant, Avan 054 (CD))
>
>So what gives with these?  Are they for real?  I called Sphere and they
>didn't know anything
>about a new Buckethead cd.  Just curious, thanks.

Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:30:29 -0800

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:34:41 +0100 (MET)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> Did I hear somebody say that Rituals by Painkiller will be avaible again??

Once, the graphic design is more

At one time, it was even thought about keeping the original designs but selling
them with a black plastic cover, like PLAYBOY and other similar magazines :-).
I know for sure that Zorn asked Shimmy to stop selling TORTURE GARDEN until
the new pressing (with a dark sleeve) is available. My statement about RITUALS
should be rephrased: because both TORTURE GARDEN and RITUALS were targetted
by the CAAV campaign, I made the assumption that RITUALS might also be back
on the domestic market with a similar PC sleeve. My feeling now (after
analyzing the facts), it that there is no reason for Toy's Factory (a Japanese
label) to redo a graphic design to meet local regulation (US market); Sony
can do that, but not a small label like Toy. Hence, if RITUALS ever appears
again on the US market, it is likely that it will be with a black plastic
wrapping. Sorry for guessing about RITUALS.

>
> I don't know if Zorn have worked with A.C. but I'm pretty sure that
> Boredoms have.

I know of a split vinyl with (at least) both of them (audio companion to a
rock magazine), although it does not imply that they have played with
each other.

> I'd like to hear some opinions on the Axiom funk stuff like Third Power
> by Material and Funkinomicron

Jeff?

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:41:40 -0800

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:30:08 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>  I remember reading about the new Buckethead release, to be on Axiom,
> a week or so ago.  But then I also remember reading in Zorn digest #115

There are projects with Buckethead on Laswell's labels, but the following
ones are different.

> this post from Patrice regarding new Avant releases:
>
> (excerpt)
> >53 - PLAYS DISNEY: Buckethead (???? - Avant, Avan 053 (CD))
> >54 - ??? - Buckethead (not released - Avant, Avan 054 (CD))
>
> So what gives with these?  Are they for real?  I called Sphere and they

They came from a list of available and upcoming records on Avant. My
impression is that this list was showing more than just upcoming records,
but also included all the "signed" projects to the label. In clear, this
list was not a promotional catalog.

> didn't know anything
> about a new Buckethead cd.  Just curious, thanks.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: West Coast Masada
Date: 18 Jan 1996 08:47:49 -0800

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:11:43 -0800 (PST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Sorry, meant to get to this a little earlier, but:
>
> Patrice--what exactly did you mean by "there will be no west coast Masada?"
> No recordings?
> No more collaborations? live or otherwise?
> In any case, thanks for clarifying this bad news.

Exactly what I said: Zorn has no intent to release Masada recordings with
the West Coast lineup (Ben Goldberg, Trevor Dunn and Kenny Wollesen).

Many people have been raving about West Coast Masada and, I agree, it is
a kind of sad news.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 09:09:22 -0800

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:57:46 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> On Jan 17, 1996 15:41:14, '"Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>' wrote:
>
>
> >Xenakis was the first (to my knowledge) to use the game as a generator of
> forms
> >in real time;  Zorn was the first (again to my knowledge) to use the game
> as a
> >way to structure improvisation.
>
> Earle Brown might have beat him to it with Available Forms I (1961).  To
> quote the liner notes by Massimo Mila from the LP "The New Music" by Rome
> Symphony Orch. under Bruno Maderna: "The score consists of six loose pages
> with four or five 'events' on each page. The conductor may begin with any
> 'event' on any page and continue from one page to another, with or without
> repetitions and omissions of 'events' and pages, combining them any way he
> wants and stopping on any page and any 'event' he chooses. In the
> orchestra, all six pages of parts can be seen at the same time by the
> performers, and the conductor indicates where they are to play by moving an
> arrow around on a large board, placed in full view of all performers and
> bearing the numbers 1 to 6."
>
> Then again Cage was probably doing this sort of thing before 1961; I don't
> know. Does this qualify as a game piece? Certainly it's aleatoric. Does the
> game have to be mathematical like Pascal's triangle or something?

My understanding is that a "game piece", although containing aleatoric events,
is not only that, hence the use of a separate qualifier. I personally think
that a "game piece" is closer to an "open piece", in which the interpret has
an active role in the developpement of the piece. Game pieces are democratic
and make the life of strong egos very hard :-). Aleatoric pieces (a la Cage)
are still very in the occidental tradition: I am the composer, you are the
interpret. The fact that Cobra got a life on its own is to me a sign that
its mechanisms are of a different nature.

An aleatoric piece does not give any control to the interpret, but to the one
who is throwing the dice :-). I think it is a significant difference. I know
the objection that some people are gonna raise: but the musician is the one
who decides what he is gonna choose to play next, etc. But wasn't Cage
advice that "pure random" choice should be used (hence his fondness for
"pure" random generators)?

I will have to dig the sentence where Zorn comments Cage's use of chance.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jesse Canterbury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Colossal Sax Sessions/musical technique
Date: 18 Jan 1996 12:39:18 -0500 (EST)

Hope no one minds my responding to a couple posts in one letter -- I
get the digest and it's easier this way.

> From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:50:56 -0800
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
> > So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
> > Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
> > even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
> > Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)
>
> Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a Zorn
> point of view).
>
>     Patrice.

Despite subsequent postings, the question still remains for me:  why
did Zorn involve himself with these sessions?  I haven't heard them,
but based on the personnel and the name of it, it seems kind of
outside the realm of what is currently active in his musical mind.

> From: "Peter T. Chen" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:14:23 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Noise (was Re: Yamatanka Eye)
>
> Besides, I am tired of how this thread has deviated from
> the artist in point to questions of musical technique - something that
> you don't need to appreciate nor understand to discuss in this group. SO,
> if you want to run this thread into the ground, do so privately.
> - -Pete

I think the question you've asked of Andrew could be potentially
interesting to the rest of us.  Why not keep your discussion on the
list?

If musical technique is an issue that comes up such that discussing it
will help us understand Zorn's motivations and methods a little
better, then I think it definitely belongs in this group.  Of course
you don't *need* to understand/appreciate it to discuss in this group
- -- but that understanding/appreciation certainly helps to understand
Zorn, which is what this group is all about.

Jesse



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Madge)
Subject: Digest archiving
Date: 18 Jan 1996 13:17:18 -0500

Just a quick question about the new list formats - will the digest form of the
list still be archived at a publicly accessible location?

Jeff (anxiously awaiting the arrival of Masada 5 + 6 (1-4 are getting lonely
on the shelf))

======================================================================
Jeff Madge       |
<[e-mail]>  |
                 |



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jesse Canterbury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Colossal Sax Sessions/musical technique
Date: 18 Jan 1996 13:17:18 -0500

> On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:39:18 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > Despite subsequent postings, the question still remains for me:  why
> > did Zorn involve himself with these sessions?  I haven't heard them,

Patrice responded:
> Do you really need an explanation to that? Are you, in your life, just
> doing things that are right and successful? What about the idea of
> trying something expecting it might work better than you think? I
> find it funny to have to answer such question.

First off, I'm not John Zorn.  My motives are not his motives.  I love
his work, and I'm curious about his motives, hence the question.  If
he's "trying something thinking it might work better than he thinks"
then that's fine by me, but seems strange, considering the number of
other projects he's involved with currently.

> I don't know the exact motives of John to get involved in these
> sessions; I don't feel that I need to ask him to guess the answer.
> I might be wrong in my guess, but I really don't care.

Nor do I feel I need to ask him personally.  Of course you might be
wrong, and you don't need to care if you're wrong or not.  But
insights can be gained through speculation.

>     - VOODOO
>     - NEWS FOR LULU
>     - MORE NEWS FOR LULU

These are old records.

I'm not trying to challenge Zorn's motives.  I'm just interested as to
why he'd involve himself with something that, again, seems outside his
current musical interests.

Jesse



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andrew J. Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 14:55:27 -0500

> Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail]
> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:09:22 -0800
> From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
[...]
>
> My understanding is that a "game piece", although containing aleatoric events,
> is not only that, hence the use of a separate qualifier. I personally think
> that a "game piece" is closer to an "open piece", in which the interpret has

Perhaps a reasonable definition of a "game piece" would be:

1) Music organized by a set of rules rather than a sequential score.
2) In which at least two "players" of the "game" independently direct
   aspects of the performance.
3) In which any random factors (cards, dice) used present more than one
   possible reaction by the "players"; i.e. in which the players
   always have a choice of strategy.
4) Which is explicitly presented as a "game" by the composer.

Andrew


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 13:30:33 +48000

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> An aleatoric piece does not give any control to the interpret, but to the one
> who is throwing the dice :-). I think it is a significant difference. I know
> the objection that some people are gonna raise: but the musician is the one
> who decides what he is gonna choose to play next, etc. But wasn't Cage
> advice that "pure random" choice should be used (hence his fondness for
> "pure" random generators)?


If you have seen the score to _The Music of Changes_ you know that there
is too much visual information that needs to be factored in for the
performer to just use "random choice" to determine how to structure the
piece in performance.  I would agree that Cage felt like the performer
was not "composing" but his obvious approval of David Tudor's very
complex and personal methodology for "interpreting" the scores implies a
tacit acknowledgement of the amount and way in which he was almost
"recomposing" the work.

Anyone interested in the specifics of how Tudor worked with Cage's scores
should seek out a paper by John Holzaepfel (NYU) entitled "The
Performance of Cage's _Concert for Piano and Ochestra (1958)_"  which was
read at the cage conference here in the fall.  I know the papaer will be
available in a collection documenting the conference, but it may have
been published already as well.  Tudor's methodology is very carefully
examined in the paper.


Other than that, I'd like to completely stay out of this game or not game
thread, so proceed without me.

Bob
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 18 Jan 1996 13:35:15 +48000

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Torsten Nielsen wrote:

> I'd like to hear some opinions on the Axiom funk stuff like Third Power
> by Material and Funkinomicron

I can only speak to third power, but it is representative of a whole set
of Laswell offerings. Sort of lighter aesthetically, but with an effort to
mixup the soundpalatte by bringing different and not necessarily "samey"
players together within the project.  Basically rehashing the Funkadelic
vision but with a larger (even at limes global) vocabulary. If you like
that sort of thing, you're in like Flynn.

Bob
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Gary M. Gettier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 18 Jan 1996 16:55:54 -0500 (EST)

Did I just read here the other day that all of the Subharmonic stuff
was out of print? Cuz, I just got a catalog from them and it looks like
most are still available.

7001-7014, 7016-7017, 7021-7022 are available.





Seeya,                                                          [e-mail]
Gary

"Think for yourself and feel the walls become sand beneath your feet."
- - Queensryche


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Takeshi Kaifuku <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 14:43:47 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

>  I remember reading about the new Buckethead release, to be on Axiom,
> a week or so ago.  But then I also remember reading in Zorn digest #115
> this post from Patrice regarding new Avant releases:
>
> (excerpt)
> >53 - PLAYS DISNEY: Buckethead (???? - Avant, Avan 053 (CD))
> >54 - ??? - Buckethead (not released - Avant, Avan 054 (CD))
>
> So what gives with these?  Are they for real?  I called Sphere and they
> didn't know anything
> about a new Buckethead cd.  Just curious, thanks.
>
You might wanna check this address for buckethead related news,
http://192.211.16.13/individuals/tdorm/BucketheadMain.html




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Damien Cassidy/Acton/NFSA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 19 Jan 1996  9:46:13 EAT

Jonas wrote:

>I'd like to hear some opinions on the Axiom funk stuff like Third Power
>by Material and Funkinomicron

I think Third Power is a bit tiring but the 2nd Material album... Hallucination
Engine is currently my most played CD. I don't remember the song titles (I
never do) but track 2 is absolutely incredible. I would recommend listening to
this CD if you can. It's nothing at all like the first album.
Funkinomicron is high on my favourites as well. The Bootsy Collins version
Hendrix's If 6 was 9 off this album is used in a Calvin Klien perfume ad on TV
(at least here in Australia). It's also my favourite track from this album.






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: Re: 4:33
Date: 18 Jan 1996 14:17:09 GMT

>I am at a loss for words as to how you might
>extrapolate my opinion of music in general based on my comments on
>one particular piece. Frankly, I'm offended since I've observed more
>mature comments from you before.

aw geez,
sorry to offend you. i was just following the train of logic from one listen
- -> you get it -> you don't want to hear it again ==> thus you only wanted to
hear it in order to "get it" and not to enjoy it.  i assumed that was indeed
not the case, sorry if i sounded snotty.

my feeling is this: if ever there was a piece of (composed) music that would
different every time, this is it. therefore the need to hear as many versions
as possible... ok, i'm exaggerating a bit, i only have two recordings, and
i'm happy stopping there.

a hopefully more mature,
shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 15:26:00 -0800

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:30:33 +48000  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> >
> > An aleatoric piece does not give any control to the interpret, but to the one
> > who is throwing the dice :-). I think it is a significant difference. I know
> > the objection that some people are gonna raise: but the musician is the one
> > who decides what he is gonna choose to play next, etc. But wasn't Cage
> > advice that "pure random" choice should be used (hence his fondness for
> > "pure" random generators)?
>
>
> If you have seen the score to _The Music of Changes_ you know that there
> is too much visual information that needs to be factored in for the
> performer to just use "random choice" to determine how to structure the
> piece in performance.  I would agree that Cage felt like the performer
> was not "composing" but his obvious approval of David Tudor's very
> complex and personal methodology for "interpreting" the scores implies a
> tacit acknowledgement of the amount and way in which he was almost
> "recomposing" the work.

But I would not call Tudor a "regular" interpret. Tudor is as famous as
both a piano player and a composer. The long time collaboration between
Tudor and Cage was a composer's one; but the fact that Tudor was also an
interpret, I am sure, helped.

> Anyone interested in the specifics of how Tudor worked with Cage's scores
> should seek out a paper by John Holzaepfel (NYU) entitled "The
> Performance of Cage's _Concert for Piano and Ochestra (1958)_"  which was
> read at the cage conference here in the fall.  I know the papaer will be
> available in a collection documenting the conference, but it may have
> been published already as well.  Tudor's methodology is very carefully
> examined in the paper.

Thanks for the advice.

> Other than that, I'd like to completely stay out of this game or not game
> thread, so proceed without me.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 18 Jan 1996 16:00:17 -0800

At 1:46 AM 1/19/96, Damien Cassidy/Acton/NFSA wrote:

>I think Third Power is a bit tiring but the 2nd Material album...
>Hallucination

_Hallucination Engine_ is the eighth or ninth Material album.  Here is a
listing:

Memory Serves (1981)
One Down (1982)
Praxis (1984) (Unclear if this is an EP or an album)
Seven Souls (1989, will be reissued in 1996)
The Third Power (1991)
Temporary Music 1979-1981 (1992)
Live in Japan (1993)
Live at Soundscape (1994)
Hallucination Engine (1994)


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Digest archiving
Date: 18 Jan 1996 16:56:30 -0800 (PST)

Jeff Madge, the closet hipster sez:
>
>Just a quick question about the new list formats - will the digest form of the
>list still be archived at a publicly accessible location?

    The digests generated since the changeover (except for
    the first two that I hand collated) are available via
    ftp at
        ftp.xmission.com    /pub/lists/zorn-list/
    or via the web at
        ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/
    there are two directories
        archive - old digests
        current - current messages waiting to be
              built into the next digest.

    I find it easiest to access them via a web browser.

    cheers,
    mike rizzi
    p.s. I have a sneaking suspicion that only one of
    my hand collated digests successfully went out.
    They were called Volume 0 Number 0, and Volume 0
    Number 001.
    Did any of you digest subscribers get both of these?


[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
- -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steev Hise <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  Book of Heads, digital editing
Date: 18 Jan 1996 16:56:30 -0800 (PST)

>boring parts from a 47 minute improvisation to get a three-minute one=20
>with nothing but =ABgood=AB playing. Etc, etc... Somebody consider this
>of editing cheating. I personally think that it=ABs just
>the same:

Usually I would agree- what matters is how it sounds.  But with Naked
City the cool thing is that they do it live.  Isn't that what most
people find is one of the really amazing things about Naked City?
I mean, anybody can take a tape and a razorblade, or a digital editing
system, and make a bunch of jumpcuts. But its not the same as knowing
that a real live band learned how to do it "for real."
Right?

steev


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re:  Book of Heads, digital editing
Date: 18 Jan 1996 18:31:09 -0800

At 5:29 PM 1/18/96, Steev Hise wrote:

>I mean, anybody can take a tape and a razorblade, or a digital editing
>system, and make a bunch of jumpcuts. But its not the same as knowing

I don't think that this is true.  I have heard a lot of bad mixing.  It is
not necessary to trivialize the hard work and artistry of other people in
order to value Zorn.

And I really think that is the music that matters, not how hard it is to do
it.  Otherwise, we could just have a Music Olympics and listen to whoever
wins instead of anyone else.



Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (windy)
Subject: Re: Buckethead
Date: 18 Jan 1996 18:40:00 -0800

Buckethead will release at least one cd
on Avant (or is it Tzadik?) in late february, i think.
it's supposed to be a collaboration
with some english guy
and it's JUNGLE. yes!

  ~windy




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: Book of Heads
Date: 18 Jan 1996 22:47:54 -0500

Steev Hise <[e-mail]>

<somethings snipped>

>Another question:  In the liner notes Zorn thanks the engineer
>for his "proficiency on the Synclavier."  Anyone know what this means?
>Why would they need a synclavier when recording solo guitar?

Can't the synclavier be used as a sampler? Then they would
edit the pieces for mastering?

btw: I heard about the D.Bailey/Laswell/T.Williams
from a Derek Bailey page:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mbailey.html



David Beardsley
[e-mail]

http://www.synet.net/sonic-boom/labels/immp.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  IMMP music recordings:
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  strange beautiful music.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK! music.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: Book of Heads
Date: 18 Jan 1996 23:02:24 -0500

Steev Hise <[e-mail]>

<somethings snipped>

>Another question:  In the liner notes Zorn thanks the engineer
>for his "proficiency on the Synclavier."  Anyone know what this means?
>Why would they need a synclavier when recording solo guitar?

Can't the synclavier be used as a sampler? Then they would
edit the pieces for mastering?

btw: I heard about the D.Bailey/Laswell/T.Williams
from a Derek Bailey page:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mbailey.html



David Beardsley
[e-mail]

http://www.synet.net/sonic-boom/labels/immp.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  IMMP music recordings:
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  strange beautiful music.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK! music.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: games
Date: 18 Jan 1996 23:32:42 -0800

I'm not sure whether the Earl Brown pieces that Denman Maroney mentions
qualify as "game pieces" but there are several (early) works by Christian
Wolff in which players respond to each other according to a set of rules,
rather than following a strictly notated score.

These works seem to fit all but the last of Andrew Wilson's proposed
definition of a game piece, I'm pretty sure that it was NOT "explicitly
presented as a "game" by the composer."  However, this seems to me to be
the most questionable of Wilson's four defining characteristics.

Bests


Herb Levy
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Subject: Re: Re: 4:33
Date: 18 Jan 1996 23:33:11 -0800

It seems to me that the issue with 4:33, isn't how many recordings of
performances of the work are useful to own or to have available.

Recordings (or performances) of the piece don't matter at all in comparison
with how one pays attention to what they are hearing, whether as a
performer or a member of the audience.

>
>my feeling is this: if ever there was a piece of (composed) music that would
>different every time, this is it. therefore the need to hear as many versions
>as possible... ok, i'm exaggerating a bit, i only have two recordings, and
>i'm happy stopping there.
>
>a hopefully more mature,
>shiurba


Herb Levy
[e-mail]




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 15:29:37 -0800

At 2:43 PM 1/18/96, Takeshi Kaifuku wrote:

>You might wanna check this address for buckethead related news,
>http://192.211.16.13/individuals/tdorm/BucketheadMain.html
>

This site does have an incorrect bit of information on the next solo
Buckethead release- it says that Brain is playing drums on the _Day of the
Robot_.

The drum track on _Day of the Robot_ is primarily from some guy in England
whose name I can't recall. I asked Brain about this and he told me he
wasn't on it so I think this is pretty good information unless they go back
and re-record the rhythm tracks.


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Buckethead releases
Date: 18 Jan 1996 15:31:35 -0800

At 2:43 PM 1/18/96, Takeshi Kaifuku wrote:

>You might wanna check this address for buckethead related news,
>http://192.211.16.13/individuals/tdorm/BucketheadMain.html
>

At this site you have a bit of misinformation.  Brain does not play drums on it.

The drum track on _Day of the Robot_ is primarily from some guy in England
whose name I can't recall. I asked Brain about this and he told me he
wasn't on it so I think this is pretty good information unless they go back
and re-record the rhythm tracks.  He was at the studio where Buckethead's
tracks were recorded but was not even near the recording piece of it.
Mostly he sat around in the business office and talked with me and the guy
that managed the Limbomaniacs (Dave something).




Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Digest archiving
Date: 18 Jan 1996 11:02:29 -0800 (PST)

Jeff Madge, the closet hipster sez:
>
>Just a quick question about the new list formats - will the digest form of the
>list still be archived at a publicly accessible location?

    The digests generated since the changeover (except for
    the first two that I hand collated) are available via
    ftp at
        ftp.xmission.com    /pub/lists/zorn-list/
    or via the web at
        ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/
    there are two directories
        archive - old digests
        current - current messages waiting to be
              built into the next digest.

    I find it easiest to access them via a web browser.

    cheers,
    mike rizzi
    p.s. I have a sneaking suspicion that only one of
    my hand collated digests successfully went out.
    They were numbered Volume 0 Number 0, and Number 01.
    Did any of you digest subscribers get both?


[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
- -=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
                      http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
- -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Colossal Sax Sessions/musical technique
Date: 18 Jan 1996 11:02:29 -0800 (PST)

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:39:18 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Hope no one minds my responding to a couple posts in one letter -- I
> get the digest and it's easier this way.
>
> > From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:50:56 -0800
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:54:12 -0500 (EST)  [e-mail] wrote:
> > > So what the hey does everyone think of Zorn's straight-ahead playing on
> > > Joe Chambers' recent _The Colossal Saxophone Sessions_ on Evidence? He
> > > even plays on a jam session with Lee Konitz, Archie Shepp, David Murray,
> > > Frank Morgan (!) and Donald Harrison (?!)
> >
> > Zorn hates these sessions. His advice: don't buy it (at least from a Zorn
> > point of view).
> >
> >     Patrice.
>
> Despite subsequent postings, the question still remains for me:  why
> did Zorn involve himself with these sessions?  I haven't heard them,

Do you really need an explanation to that? Are you, in your life, just
doing things that are right and successful? What about the idea of
trying something expecting it might work better than you think? I
find it funny to have to answer such question.

I don't know the exact motives of John to get involved in these
sessions; I don't feel that I need to ask him to guess the answer.
I might be wrong in my guess, but I really don't care.

> but based on the personnel and the name of it, it seems kind of
> outside the realm of what is currently active in his musical mind.

I think there are few records with Zorn that target a similar
audience:

    - VOODOO
    - NEWS FOR LULU
    - MORE NEWS FOR LULU

I mean, jazz records.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 18 Jan 1996 09:46:08 -0800

>
>> I'd like to hear some opinions on the Axiom funk stuff like Third Power
>> by Material and Funkinomicron
>
>Jeff?

_The Third Power_ was originally supposed to be released as a Sly & Robbie
album, but ended up coming out as Material.  There are two tracks without
vocals, the others have vocals.  The overall sound is sort of "smooth" funk
and I happen to like the overall effect.  There is an incredible cover of
Funkadelic's "Cosmic Slop" which has a (!) string track which I think works
particularly well.  There is also a cover of an early Marley tune.  Herbie
Hancock's piano is quite prominent on many of the tracks (I think this is
the last time that Laswell recorded Hancock).

_Funkcronimicon_ is a compilation of tracks that Laswell recorded over a
number of a years.  To get the negatives out of the way first, it is fairly
short for a double CD and includes a number of tracks that appeared on
other CDs, including the cover of "Cosmic Slop."  On the positive side,
there is Bootsy Collins' cover of Jimi Hendrix's "If 6 Was 9," which some
people may have heard on a Calvin Klein commercial; it is probably the best
track.  There are about a half dozen other great tracks, including a very
P-Funkish thing with a Buckethead solo, and the remainder are hit-and-miss.

There will be a 12" remix of "If 6 Was 9" and a new CD called _Altered
Beats_ which includes new mixes of some of the _Funkcronimicon_ tracks
coming out on Axiom in the near future.

Here is an artist listing for _The Third Power_, I seem to have misplaced
the one for _Funkcronimicon_.

Gary Mudbone Cooper: vocals; Jenny Peters: vocals; Herbie Hancock: piano;
Bernie Worrell: piano and organ; Jeff Bova: synths; Henry Threadgill:
flute; Robbie Shakespeare: bass; Nicky Skopelitis: guitar and fairlight;
Michael Hampton: guitar; Aiyb Dieng: percussion; Sly Dunbar: drums and drum
programming; Olu Dara: cornet and African trumpet; Joe Daly: baritone horn;
Richard Harper: euphonium; Marcus Rojas: tuba; Joel Brandon: whistling;
Fred Wesley: trombone; Maceo Parker: alto sax; Pee Wee Ellis: tenor sax;
Jungle brothers: vocals; Jalaluddin Mansur Nuriddin: vocals; Shabba Ranks:
vocals; Bootsy Collins: vocals  and guitar; Gary Shider: vocals and guitar

Produced by Bill Laswell.


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Walsh <[e-mail]>
Subject: A.C. / Boredoms
Date: 19 Jan 1996 10:18:00 PST

>> I don't know if Zorn have worked with A.C. but I'm pretty sure that
>> Boredoms have.
>
>I know of a split vinyl with (at least) both of them (audio companion to a
>rock magazine), although it does not imply that they have played with
>each other.

The split vinyl you mentioned is (I believe) from Thorazine zine. From what
I remember all of these are tracks taken from their respective albums, them
being, from what I remember A.C.'s "Everyone Should Be Killed" and Boredoms
"Pop Tatari". If I am wrong someone PLEASE let me know as I've declined
buying the zine numerous times because I thought the tracks were on these
albums. I don't know of a AC/Boredoms collaboration, but I do know that A.C.
thanks Boredoms on the above album.

Does anyone on this list have "Nani Nani"? If so, please give me a synopsis
or some idea as to what it's like.

Matt Walsh
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brent Oliver <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: A.C. / Boredoms
Date: 19 Jan 1996 10:20:28 -0700 (MST)

On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Matt Walsh wrote:

> Does anyone on this list have "Nani Nani"? If so, please give me a synopsis
> or some idea as to what it's like.
>
> Matt Walsh
> [e-mail]
>
Yes, I have it. I don't know if it is available in the U.S. yet but I found
it up here in Canada. I don't know if anyone else agrees with me, but I
found it a bit of a departure for Zorn and Yamantaka Eye. The album has
bits of everything, but very little in the way of Sax playing by Zorn.
There are some very good tracks on it, mostly improvised with Zorn and
Eye feeding off each other's collective creativity. There are long songs
with looped samples, Karaoke music and toilet flushing creating what I
think could be the future of Zorn's non-sax or non-music fentures.(not to
say this isn't music, I don't want to start this again!)

It's a great little disc.

Brent Oliver
Green Pepper records
[e-mail]

P.S. Does anyone know if Zorn has a mailing address (e-mail or snail), if
so, could someone send it to me?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: List Popularity
Date: 19 Jan 1996 16:26:00 -0500

[e-mail] wrote:

>415 subscribers!  Incredible.
>I'm on a number of lists, and I can tell you that the most recently
>announced figures put the Rolling Stones list at about 850  . . . [et al]

The number of people on a list is probably a product of the following
factors:

   1) Popularity of topic
   2) Propensity for fetishizm
   3) "Nerd" element of audience

Zorn's audience certainly ranks high in factors 2 & 3 (speaking as a fellow
nerd with a bit of a Zorn fetish), thus a relatively high number of readers.
 Likewise,  Elephant Talk (the King Crimson Letter).

Mark Stevens





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: List Popularity
Date: 19 Jan 1996 15:49:14 -0800

On Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:26:00 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> >415 subscribers!  Incredible.
> >I'm on a number of lists, and I can tell you that the most recently
> >announced figures put the Rolling Stones list at about 850  . . . [et al]
>
> The number of people on a list is probably a product of the following
> factors:
>
>    1) Popularity of topic
>    2) Propensity for fetishizm
>    3) "Nerd" element of audience
>
> Zorn's audience certainly ranks high in factors 2 & 3 (speaking as a fellow
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If you want to do this kind of thing, you might better choose categories
with a small intersection. Popularity is also a direct result of 2 and 3 :-).

> nerd with a bit of a Zorn fetish), thus a relatively high number of readers.
>  Likewise,  Elephant Talk (the King Crimson Letter).

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: just to piss you all off
Date: 19 Jan 1996 18:38:43 -0400

im not sure what effect this question will have on you all as the list has
been a bit defensive latley but none the less....in my personal experence
ive found that the majority of  jazz fans not just the avant-garde tend to
be muscians,  as opposed to rocks non-musician fans.  this applies to a lot
of modern orchetrial music as well IMO.  i have only been to 1 zorn
performance, masada in santa barbara,  fucking amazing i might add.  but i
noticed a really diverse crowd seemingly not as musicany as most jazz shows
not that you can really tell.  my question then is how many of you are
musicians/composers?  my curiosty stems from the lack of people i have
found who share my intrest in his music for colaboration or in general.
then again i live in los angeles.  current company excluded of course....

david

Cattiva come adesso, non sono stato mai.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: just to piss you all off
Date: 19 Jan 1996 20:06:34 +48000

On Fri, 19 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> im not sure what effect this question will have on you all as the list has
> been a bit defensive latley but none the less....in my personal experence
> ive found that the majority of  jazz fans not just the avant-garde tend to
> be muscians,  as opposed to rocks non-musician fans.  this applies to a lot
> of modern orchetrial music as well IMO.  i have only been to 1 zorn
> performance, masada in santa barbara,  fucking amazing i might add.  but i
> noticed a really diverse crowd seemingly not as musicany as most jazz shows
> not that you can really tell.  my question then is how many of you are
> musicians/composers?  my curiosty stems from the lack of people i have
> found who share my intrest in his music for colaboration or in general.
> then again i live in los angeles.  current company excluded of course....


I guess I'm a musician if music is "organized sound", otherwise I'm a
sound artist...

I would say that my experience is the opposite though, coming from Chapel
Hill where everyone is or was in a rock band... active music audience is
primarily music playing people (albeit untrained/novice).

Bob
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: Re: Book of Heads, digital editing
Date: 19 Jan 1996 20:26:26 GMT

>>Otherwise, we could just have a Music Olympics and listen to whoever
>>wins instead of anyone else.

>That's right gang, art is not sports!

but what about "Hockey" and "Pool" and "Lacrosse" and "Archery" :-)

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Moffett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: just to piss you all off
Date: 20 Jan 1996 13:22:02 -0500 (EST)

    I'm really fairly new to John Zorn, but I am a musician as well.
Although the term can be applied much more loosely to me, I suppose,
than some others who are on the list.  The music scene where I go to
college is pretty lame,  all imitations of either Hootie and the Blowfish
or poppy punk like Green Day.  So in my experience it is mostly
non-musicians who are into Zorn.  In fact the two friends who exposed me
to them have never touched an instrument in their lives.  They just seem
to have a knack for understanding there is a lot more superior music out
there than just what is popular.  I was, however, able to convince my
bass teacher that Zorn is a true talent.  Still can't get him into Naked
City, though.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jesse Canterbury <[e-mail]>
Subject: 4'33'' recordings
Date: 20 Jan 1996 14:48:59 -0500 (EST)

> my feeling is this: if ever there was a piece of (composed) music that would
> different every time, this is it. therefore the need to hear as many versions
> as possible... ok, i'm exaggerating a bit, i only have two recordings, and
> i'm happy stopping there.

we're still talking about 4'33'', right?  do you even need a
recording?  i mean, one performance, one record-listening maybe, then
you don't really need it, right?  i heard from a friend of mine (who
is currently lurking on this list) that Cage, while sitting in
rehearsals waiting for everyone to arrive, or sitting in the airport,
or whatever, would just sit and listen.  he described this as
"listening to my piece."

jesse


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jesse Canterbury <[e-mail]>
Subject: tape cuts
Date: 20 Jan 1996 14:54:40 -0500 (EST)

> >I mean, anybody can take a tape and a razorblade, or a digital editing
> >system, and make a bunch of jumpcuts. But its not the same as knowing
>
> I don't think that this is true.  I have heard a lot of bad mixing.  It is
> not necessary to trivialize the hard work and artistry of other people in
> order to value Zorn.

I agree that one of the amazing things about Naked City is that they
can do all that shit live -- completely astounding, actually.  But
even if it were all tape cuts (as I've heard some of the tunes on
Torture Garden/Grand Guignol are), it's not really less amazing.  The
playing between the possible cuts is still amazing, and it takes
confident and focused artistic vision to make the cuts so that they
don't sound like a bunch of tape cuts.

jesse


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Andrew D. Boyko)
Subject: Material's "Praxis"
Date: 20 Jan 1996 13:45:06 -0800 (PST)

>_Hallucination Engine_ is the eighth or ninth Material album.  Here is a
>listing:

>Memory Serves (1981)
>One Down (1982)
>Praxis (1984) (Unclear if this is an EP or an album)
>
> etc.

Praxis is a 45 RPM 12" (CEL 168).  While it credits "Produced by Bill Laswell
for Material/OAO", it doesn't appear to mention Material anywhere else.
I've never timed it, but I'd guess it's around 15-20 minutes total.

although there are several musicians thanked in the credits, it sure seems
like a Laswell solo work.  it's all drum machines & samplers.
amusing, but hardly essential.

Andrew Boyko  [e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: just to piss you all off
Date: 20 Jan 1996 17:33:43 -0500

At 6:38 PM 1/19/96, [e-mail] wrote:
>my question then is how many of you are
>musicians/composers?

I am an opera singer and do some composing. My guitar playing is jazz.

I ran into someone who had first hand information of Zorn being a real,
well, asshole - blacklisting people from the Knitting Factory, that kind of
shit. Any foundation to this rumor?

Matthew Ross Davis, Webmaestro                  HuskyLabs
[e-mail]                            [phone]
mailto:[e-mail] (NetscapeMail)   12C Parkway Dr.
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart/mdavis/         Greenbelt, MD 20770




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Moffett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: tape cuts
Date: 20 Jan 1996 19:30:31 -0500 (EST)

On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Jesse Canterbury wrote:

> > >I mean, anybody can take a tape and a razorblade, or a digital editing
> > >system, and make a bunch of jumpcuts. But its not the same as knowing
> >
> > I don't think that this is true.  I have heard a lot of bad mixing.  It is
> > not necessary to trivialize the hard work and artistry of other people in
> > order to value Zorn.
>
The production studio is now more than ever a place of true artistry.
With the creation of sampling, mixing, and other techniques in industrial
and techno, the studio has really been pushed to new levels.  It is
extremely difficult to put complex items together like they do, and it
is only in the last couple of years that it has begun to bleed into
other forms of music. .  I agree
that a live performance is of high importance for certain kinds of music,
but other forms of music seem made solely for the album.  And there
shouldn't be anything wrong with that.  In fact, it should be looked as a
new potential for expression, instead of a hindrance or weakness.  But I
guess when you get right down to it, the studio is a new art form and new
art forms are often looked down upon by those who don't understand its
point.

matt


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (John Shiurba)
Subject: Re: 4'33'' recordings
Date: 20 Jan 1996 17:59:09 GMT

>we're still talking about 4'33'', right?  do you even need a
>recording?  i mean, one performance, one record-listening maybe, then
>you don't really need it, right?

well, if you're so inclined (and you have a timer) you can perform it
yourself, yes.

>i heard from a friend of mine (who is currently lurking on this list) that
Cage,
>while sitting in rehearsals waiting for everyone to arrive, or sitting in
the airport,
>or whatever, would just sit and listen.  he described this as "listening to
my piece."

i've not heard this particular (and interesting) story, was he referring to
"4:33" specifically, or was it more like 'my favorite music is the music that
surrounds us' which i've heard of him (more or less) saying. it's hard to
imagine that he would consider sitting in an airport to be a performance of
"4:33" --even he used a stopwatch-- the score specifies, very specifically
that a _pianist_ is to perform the piece in three movements, which are to be
marked by opening & closing the keyboard cover. he also wrote something
called " 4:33 (No. 2) (0:00)" which is a piece for anybody doing anything for
4:33 or something like that.

shiurba


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 12:02:31 +48000

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Jeff Spirer wrote:

>
> Bill Laswell is no longer associated with Subharmonic.  Subharmonic as a
> label is essentially out of business.  Product that was already in the
> hands of the distributor (Caroline) may still be available.  I believe that
> there may still be some product at manufacturing facilities, based on
> information from a musician associated with the company that put out
> Subharmonic.
>
> However, since it appears that many Subharmonic titles have disappeared
> from the shelves of retailers and it is unlikely that more will be pressed,
> if you see it and want it, buy it.
>
> There is a new label putting out similar stuff to what Subharmonic was
> putting out, called Sub Meta.  The first releases on Sub Meta should be in
> the stores starting next week.  For a list of the releases planned and a
> schedule, see the URL below.
>

Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if there is a public way for you
to explain how all this went down.  Not to put anyone in a uncomfortable
position, but I think a lot of people would be interested in the workings
on a business level, of some of these operations...

Just ignore me if I'm out of line.

Thanks either way.

Bob
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masque
Date: 21 Jan 1996 14:20:30 -0600 (CST)

I hope I don't bust anything by posting this to multiple lists, but I
thought I would inquire to see if anyone has any news on the status of
Vernon Reid's new band Masque.  Have they recorded any material
or played any more gigs?  I know someone saw MMW open for them and
seemed to express some disapointment in Masque's performance, but there
hasn't been any word since then I don't believe.  Thanks all.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Schwartz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 15:39:42 -0500 (EST)

Yeah, I'd like to know more about the business end of things too.
Like what was the difference between Strata and Subharmonic?
and, most of all, how does Laswell keep getting record companies to give
him labels to put out such uncommercial music? What secret power does he have?
I imagine a meeting: "Yes Bill, this collaboration between a reggae rhythm
section, Indian violinists and percussionists, free jazz horns, and
ex-members of Funkadelic has great commercial potential. Do you think you
could find a lead guitar player who wears a mask and claims to be related
to poultry? That would be just the thing to guarantee a MTV Buzz Clip."

On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Bob Boster wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 18 Jan 1996, Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
> >
> > Bill Laswell is no longer associated with Subharmonic.  Subharmonic as a
> > label is essentially out of business.  Product that was already in the
> > hands of the distributor (Caroline) may still be available.  I believe that
> > there may still be some product at manufacturing facilities, based on
> > information from a musician associated with the company that put out
> > Subharmonic.
> >
> > However, since it appears that many Subharmonic titles have disappeared
> > from the shelves of retailers and it is unlikely that more will be pressed,
> > if you see it and want it, buy it.
> >
> > There is a new label putting out similar stuff to what Subharmonic was
> > putting out, called Sub Meta.  The first releases on Sub Meta should be in
> > the stores starting next week.  For a list of the releases planned and a
> > schedule, see the URL below.
> >
>
> Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if there is a public way for you
> to explain how all this went down.  Not to put anyone in a uncomfortable
> position, but I think a lot of people would be interested in the workings
> on a business level, of some of these operations...
>
> Just ignore me if I'm out of line.
>
> Thanks either way.
>
> Bob
> [e-mail]





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Masque
Date: 21 Jan 1996 16:57:02 -0500

I talked to Vernon in early December and he said that Masque
has recorded, and that it should be out sometime soon, on Sony.
They haven't played in a while around NYC, but I'm keeping
my eyes out, because I really want to see this band!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: plantarm <[e-mail]>
Subject: cage
Date: 21 Jan 1996 18:24:09 -0500 (EST)

as far as 4:33 goes-- i believe that it's currently available to any
instrumentalist.  the instrumentation, clearly, is beside the point;
the scoring & performance was simply to underline the focus of the
piece, which is the instruction "tacet" meaning "silent".  the use
of randomly determined durations was typically cage, and was mostly to
make the thing into a "piece" instead of something open-ended-- i.e.
improvisationally determined by the player, which it should not be.

my feeling is that 4:33 is a specific representation of what cage
considered to be the piece proper: any person listening, for any
amount of time.  i've read a lot of cage and i think this coheres
with his philosophy even if it is not a literal interpretation of
4:33.

plantarm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Damien Cassidy/Acton/NFSA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 22 Jan 1996 11:41:22 EAT

>> I'd like to hear some opinions on the Axiom funk stuff like Third Power
>> by Material and Funkinomicron
>
>Jeff?

>Here is an artist listing for _The Third Power_, I seem to have misplaced
>the one for _Funkcronimicon_.

Well it just so happens that I bought this CD to work today.....

If you don't care then hit DELETE Now!

I'll list the artist with each track as this is a compilation.

1 ORDER WITHIN THE UNIVERSE
Bernie Worrell, DXT, Bill Laswell

2 UNDER THE INFLUENCE (JES GREW)
George Clinton, Gary "Mudbone" Cooper, Bootsy Collins, Herbie Hancock, Robbie
Shakespeare, Sly Dunbar, Anton Fier, Daniel Ponce, Aiyb Dieng, Michael "Clip"
Payne, Debrah Barsha, Zhana Saunders, Edwin Rodriguez, Joe Daly, Ted Daniel,
Janet Grice, J.D. Parron
(Horns arranged and conducted by Henry Threadgill)

3 IF 6 WAS 9
Bootsy Collins, Blackbyrd McKnight, Nicky Skopelitis, Robert Musso, Buckethead,
Lili Haydn

4 ORBITRON ATTACK
Eddie Hazel, Bootsy Collins, Bernie Worrell, Jerome "Bigfoot" Brailey

5 COSMIC SLOP
Gary Shider, Gary "Mudbone" Cooper, Bootsy Collins, Michael Hampton, Bernie
Worrell, Nicky Skopeletis, Robbie Shakespeare, Sly Dunbar, Ayib Dieng

6 FREE-BASS (GODZILLATRON CRUSH)
Zillatron, Menace (the Dawg of the C)

7 TELL THE WORLD
Maceo Parker, Sly Stone, Bootsy Collins

8 PRAY MY SOUL
Eddie Hazel, Bernie Worrell

CD 2
1 HIDEOUS MUTANT FREEKZ
George Clinton, Garry Shider, Gary "Mudbone" Cooper, Bootsy, Buckethead, Bernie
Worrell, Anton Fier

2 SAX MACHINE
Maceo Parker, Bobby Byrd, Fred Wesley, Bootsy, Bill Laswell, Bernie Worrell,
T-Bone

3 ANIMAL BEHAVIOR
Bootsy, Bernie Worrell, Buckethead, Af Next Man Flip, Brain, Bill Laswell

4 TRUMPETS AND VIOLINS
Abiodun Oyewole, Backbyrd McKnight, Nicky Skopelitis, Robert Musso, Buckethead,
Lili Haydn

5 TELLING TIME
Nicky Skopelitis, Amina Claudine Myers, Billy Laswell, Joseph "Zigaboo"
Modeliste, Guiherme Franco

6 JUNGLE FREE_BASS
Bootsy, Bill Laswell, Torture

7 BLACKOUT
Blackbyrd McKnight

8 SACRED TO THE PAIN
Eddie Hazel, Bernie Worrell, Umar Bin Hassan

I realize this is probably on the Axiom WEB Page but some people (like myself)
don't have Web access.

That is all.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Me <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 19:00:06 -0600 (CST)

On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, Jeff Schwartz wrote:

> Yeah, I'd like to know more about the business end of things too.
> Like what was the difference between Strata and Subharmonic?

In terms of types of projects, I would say there was very little
difference between the two.  Strata releases were mostly ambient or
ambient dub, with the exception of Azonic, which consisted of
manipulations of guitar drones, which is pretty much ambient as well.
All of the titles would have fit nicely on Subharmonic, which is probably
why having Strata around was a bit redundant.  From a business point of
view, I believe that Jeff once told me that Strata releases were limited
to one or two thousand copies each, much like on the FAX label.

> and, most of all, how does Laswell keep getting record companies to give
> him labels to put out such uncommercial music? What secret power does he have?
> I imagine a meeting: "Yes Bill, this collaboration between a reggae rhythm
> section, Indian violinists and percussionists, free jazz horns, and
> ex-members of Funkadelic has great commercial potential. Do you think you
> could find a lead guitar player who wears a mask and claims to be related
> to poultry? That would be just the thing to guarantee a MTV Buzz Clip."

I got a big kick out of reading the above passage.  I does seem crazy
that Laswell has been able to release all the stuff that he has.  I can
imagine a record company executive saying this kind of thing
sarcastically and then rejecting a label deal.  While I'm in no position
to guess how this actually works, I would say that it all comes down to
the almighty dollar.  As long as Laswell can record for a realistic
budget, afford a good distributor, and sell enough to make his
money back, he'll be able to put out whatever he wants.  It's the same
thing Zorn does with Tzadik, I would imagine.

Out 2 lunch with lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 18:22:59 -0800

At 4:02 AM 1/1/96, Bob Boster wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, I was wondering if there is a public way for you
>to explain how all this went down.  Not to put anyone in a uncomfortable
>position, but I think a lot of people would be interested in the workings
>on a business level, of some of these operations...

A lot of what happened I don't think is appropriate.  One of the key events
in the demise of the label(s) was that the person who was doing most of the
work on it, including being the interface between the label and Laswell,
got very ill and was unable to work.

However, the fact is that indie labels have a lot of obstacles to success,
which is why so many of them go either go out of business or sell to a
major.  If you think about the economics of it, a CD that sells 2000
results in sales volume of around $16,000 (this is lower than for a major
label because they have to go through a distributor.)  Out of this comes
the costs for manufacturing, and then you have to pay the musicians,
artists, studio fees, producer, etc.  Then you have to pay to run the label
(phones, promotion, someone's salary) and you can see how tough it can be.

Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 18:38:47 -0800

At 12:39 PM 1/21/96, Jeff Schwartz wrote:
>Yeah, I'd like to know more about the business end of things too.
>Like what was the difference between Strata and Subharmonic?

Originally, Strata was supposed to have music that was more 'experimental'
than Subharmonic.  Since the Strata releases ended, I think a lot of what
would have come out on Strata ended up on Subharmonic and there wasn't much
difference.

>and, most of all, how does Laswell keep getting record companies to give
>him labels to put out such uncommercial music? What secret power does he have?

He hasn't done that much with the majors, in fact only Virgin and
Polygram/Island have put out Laswell-only labels, and Virgin ended it
fairly quickly after only a few releases.  Ryko puts out Black Arc, and
that label is well-identified, even if it isn't being marketed too well
into its target audience.  The others are either major label releases of
individual projects like Sony with Henry Threadgill, or small/tiny labels.

The Axiom relationship with Island is worth looking at - it is a case of a
strong interest at the label in music as opposed to just money.  This has
been allowed to thrive at major labels as long as there is a strong
personality with an interest - at Island, Blackwell is the driving force.
It is very similar to Lenny Waronker when he was at Warner Bros, who was
responsible for about 15 Ry Cooder albums over a number of years even
though they never sold in the numbers required.  For what it's worth,
Waronker left Warner in a well-publicized disastrous restructuring that
favored accountants over music.

Japan seems to be different, as I am sure most people on this list have
noticed.  Stuff that never gets out in the US because of the small number
of people who would be interested in it seems to have no trouble being put
out over there.  Some of Laswell's stuff is put out over there long before
it comes out in the US (the Black Arc titles are a good example) and some
of it never comes out in the US. The number of jazz titles available in
Japan is simply phenomenal compared to the US.  If anyone on this list ever
gets to Tokyo, check out the six level music store across the street from
the Akihabara train station.


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn box not coming out
Date: 22 Jan 1996 00:16:23 -0500

Somebody at Knitting Factory (i've forgotten who but i think he was in charge
of marketing) confirmed that the Zorn box is a dead project.

LT


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Next Zorn release date?
Date: 22 Jan 1996 01:00:38 -0500

Weren't a lot of early Zorn reissues on Tzadik supposed to come out around
now? Anyone know the actual release date for these? Is there a Tzadik release
schedule that someone could post?

Thanks,
Jon



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Joseph Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing Li
Date: 22 Jan 1996 00:33:23 +0000

[e-mail] (John Shiurba) wrote on 20 Jan 1996
17:59:09 GMT:

> i've not heard this particular (and interesting) story, was he referring to
> "4:33" specifically, or was it more like 'my favorite music is the music that
> surrounds us' which i've heard of him (more or less) saying. it's hard to
> imagine that he would consider sitting in an airport to be a performance of
> "4:33" --even he used a stopwatch-- the score specifies, very specifically
> that a _pianist_ is to perform the piece in three movements, which are to be
> marked by opening & closing the keyboard cover. he also wrote something
> called " 4:33 (No. 2) (0:00)" which is a piece for anybody doing anything for
> 4:33 or something like that.

The score to 4:33 that I have seen does not indicate any instrument. Since the
premiere was done by David Tudor on piano, the story survives that it
is particularly for that instrument.

The score to '0:00 (4:33 N. 2)', as quoted in James Pritchett's "The
Music of John Cage", consists of a single sentence: "In a situation
provided with maximum amplification (no feedback), perform a
disciplined action."
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/  Joseph Zitt ==== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/         Organizer, SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List         \||
|/<A HREF="http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/">Joe Zitt's Home Page</A>\|


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn vinyl
Date: 22 Jan 1996 02:03:12 EST

I been wondering for a long time why neither Tzadik nor Avant issue any
vinyl.  Zorn seems to be particularly proud of his vinyl collection. I've
read mention of it (his collection) on several occassions.  Anyway, I
thought Patrice or someone else might know. I figure it's purely a matter
of economics, but I would love to see the beautiful packaging of these labels
available in the size of an LP.
                               Trey Lofton
                               [e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: Re: Digest problems?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 23:27:46 -0800 (PST)

>Shawn Coleman wrote:
>
>>Why am I getting both digests and individual posts right now?  Anybody
>>else, and can I correct it?

    There are some of you zorn-list'ers out there who
    are subscribed to both the regular and digest forms
    of the list. I've sent mail to those who were obvious
    duplicates suggesting they unsubscribe from the list
    version they didn't want.

    Unfortunately, there are others who have more than
    one computer account. And in those cases, I am not
    able to identify multiple subscriptions.

    SO, to make along story short, if you are still getting
    BOTH versions of the zorn-list (and that is not what
    you want), then check to see if you are subscribed
    via another computer account and take appropriate action.

Herb Levy, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>DO NOT unsubscribe from the individual message format
>until you are sure that you are getting the digest form, because in
>majordomo you cannot subscribe to a list in digest form unless youare
>already subscribed to the list.

    Actually, this is not true. You can subscribe to the
    digest form directly, even if you are not already a
    member of zorn-list.

    Any questions, please drop me a line

    Thanks for your patience.

        mike rizzi
        [e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SEAN TERWILLIGER)
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 21 Jan 1996 23:27:46 -0800 (PST)

GG>Did I just read here the other day that all of the Subharmonic stuff
  >was out of print? Cuz, I just got a catalog from them and it looks like
  >most are still available.

GG>7001-7014, 7016-7017, 7021-7022 are available.
                         ^^^^^^^^^
What are these??

- -Sean

 * 1st 2.00 ~ 1stReader 2.00: The DOOM of offline mail readers.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (SEAN TERWILLIGER)
Subject: Re: misc
Date: 19 Jan 1996 13:40:00 -500

JS>_Hallucination Engine_ is the eighth or ninth Material album.  Here is a
  >listing:

JS>Memory Serves (1981)
  >One Down (1982)
  >Praxis (1984) (Unclear if this is an EP or an album)

It's a 12" 45 rpm. It does not say anything about Material on it. Just
Laswell's name is mentioned. It's called 1984. (On Celluloid)

  >Seven Souls (1989, will be reissued in 1996)

When???


- -Sean

 * 1st 2.00 ~ "You've got backup systems.  Let's see if they work!"


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 22 Jan 1996 09:16:29 -0800

On Mon, 22 Jan 96 02:03:12 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I been wondering for a long time why neither Tzadik nor Avant issue any
> vinyl.  Zorn seems to be particularly proud of his vinyl collection. I've
> read mention of it (his collection) on several occassions.  Anyway, I
> thought Patrice or someone else might know. I figure it's purely a matter

The only thing I know was that Zorn wanted the Mystic Fugu Orchestra on... 78RPM!
But he gave up after failing to find a manufacturing plan capable of producing
them (just when the Sun City Girls released their :-).

> of economics, but I would love to see the beautiful packaging of these labels
> available in the size of an LP.

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Risser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 4.33
Date: 22 Jan 1996 12:39:16 +500

My belief is that later on in life, Cage felt that this piece could
and should be played anywhere, picking mushrooms, sitting in an
airport, waiting for a concert.  The score I have seen only says
Tacet.  I don't remember the time or instrumentation being anywhere
in the actual score.

The idea behind it is that it can be performed anywhere and he chose
to first have it performed in a concert hall.  And marking the
movements by opening and closing the lid, was, I believe, a nifty
piece of drama by Tudor.

I've had several moments where I just stop and listen to my
surroundings, either in a backyard or in a stairwell of a building or
on an empty street.  Thinking about the piece helps me to stop and
open my ears, which was, I believe, his intention.

- ----
Peter Risser                            [e-mail]
Support Engineer                        1-800-888-1140 x17


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: New stuff
Date: 22 Jan 1996 13:55:24 EWT

I just found out about some upcoming Zorn-related projects that will be
of interest to the group. I was exchangin email with cellist Erik
Friedlander and he mentioned a number of dates, etc.

He will have a CD out on Tzadik in the summer (perhaps July), which is
comprised of music he wrote for Zorn's Radical Jewish Culture festival
in December. Also from Tzadik sometime in 1996 will be the Chamber
Masada double CD, featuring Friedlander, Mark Feldman, Greg Cohen, Marc
Ribot and John Medeski. Dave Douglas's String Band will have another
release on Soul Note, probably in March. I think the working title is
"Five". And Friedlaner is in the studio this week with Myra Melford,
Chris Speed and Michael Sarin before going to Europe next month with
Marty Ehrlich and Mark Helias.

I hope this post is of some interest. Later.
Jason Bivins


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Drew <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 22 Jan 1996 12:18:42 -0700 (MST)

On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 96 02:03:12 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > I been wondering for a long time why neither Tzadik nor Avant issue any
> > vinyl.  Zorn seems to be particularly proud of his vinyl collection. I've
> > read mention of it (his collection) on several occassions.  Anyway, I
> > thought Patrice or someone else might know. I figure it's purely a matter
>
> The only thing I know was that Zorn wanted the Mystic Fugu Orchestra on... 78RPM!
> But he gave up after failing to find a manufacturing plan capable of producing
> them (just when the Sun City Girls released their :-).
>
> > of economics, but I would love to see the beautiful packaging of these labels
> > available in the size of an LP.
>
>     Patrice.
>

I have seen _Spy Vs. Spy_ on vinyl and own _Guts of a Virgin_ on vinyl.

Drew.

- --
Andrew Ramsey - Phoenix, Arizona USA
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 22 Jan 1996 12:24:01 -0800

On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:18:42 -0700 (MST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Jan 96 02:03:12 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
> > >
> > > I been wondering for a long time why neither Tzadik nor Avant issue any
> > > vinyl.  Zorn seems to be particularly proud of his vinyl collection. I've
> > > read mention of it (his collection) on several occassions.  Anyway, I
> > > thought Patrice or someone else might know. I figure it's purely a matter
> >
> > The only thing I know was that Zorn wanted the Mystic Fugu Orchestra on... 78RPM!
> > But he gave up after failing to find a manufacturing plan capable of producing
> > them (just when the Sun City Girls released their :-).
> >
> > > of economics, but I would love to see the beautiful packaging of these labels
> > > available in the size of an LP.
> >
> >     Patrice.
> >
>
> I have seen _Spy Vs. Spy_ on vinyl and own _Guts of a Virgin_ on vinyl.

True Drew, but I was trying to answer the question, which happens to be fairly
precise about the labels concerned :-).

Now, if you want the complete list of Zorn's records on vinyl...

    Patrice.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Allen Huotari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: question to entire group
Date: 22 Jan 1996 16:26:20 PST

     hello all

     I'm a longtime Zorn fan but have been on the list for only 4 weeks.

     hence, a question about whether or not this group considers it a
     "breach of protocol" for private individuals (i.e., those of us who
     are NOT affiliated with any type of music recording or distribution
     service where such service is defined as the day to day business
     activities of: recording labels, chain stores, independent outlets,
     mail order houses, etc.) to occasionally post to this list offers of
     LEGITIMATE commercially available recordings for sale and/or trade

     to be specific, my inquiry is targeted towards instances where an
     individual simply wants to make it known that a recording currently in
     one's personal collection is being made available

     certainly this forum cannot be allowed to degenerate into a mere swap
     meet and the recordings offered must be appropriate for the list, but
     is there any strenuous objection (or for that matter vigorous support)
     to an occasional posting of the type:
        "hey, I've got a copy of...does anyone out there want it?"

     thanks for your time, I look forward to your thoughts


     ajh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Damien Cassidy/Acton/NFSA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 23 Jan 1996 12:06:36 EAT

>The only thing I know was that Zorn wanted the Mystic Fugu Orchestra on...
78RPM!
>But he gave up after failing to find a manufacturing plan capable of producing
>them (just when the Sun City Girls released their :-).

If anyone can pass this on, I believe the EXPERT STYLUS COMPANY have a 78
cutting lathe.
I'm not 100% sure. Talk to...

 Mr W D Hodgson
 EXPERT STYLUS COMPANY
 P.O.Box 3 Ashstead
 Surrey KT21 2QD  ENGLAND
 ph. 0372 276604    fax. [phone]





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: plantarm <[e-mail]>
Subject: cage
Date: 22 Jan 1996 21:07:55 -0500 (EST)

to clear this up: i have a reproduction of the original 4:33 in a book.
it is divided into three timed sections totalling of course 4 minutes
and thrity-three seconds; each section bears the single instruction,
in capital letters, "TACET".  instrument is not specified, and the
lid opening and closing was definitely tudor's (or at least, it isn't
on the score, and there's an apocryphal story about tudor deciding to
do that himself.  either way).

P

p.s. sorry about the typo, I meant of course "thirty-three".


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: D Alexander Bailey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 22 Jan 1996 19:47:31 -0800 (PST)

> If anyone can pass this on, I believe the EXPERT STYLUS COMPANY have a 78
> cutting lathe.

Which brings up a good point about the impracticality of releasing a 78.
While I DO have a turntable (and a fancy one at that) which is capable of
78 rpm as well as the usual 33 and 45, I still can't play 78s because
they require the use of a different stylus (I don't know the details
about the shape) than the modern "standard".  Using an ordinary stylus on
a 78 will quickly destroy it (the record - and it probably isn't good for
the stylus either).  So basically it comes down to having two turntables,
one for 78s the other for 33s and 45s.

Zorn's solution, sampling some surface noise from an old 78, on the Mystic
Fugu Orchestra record really wasn't much of a compromise, since most
people don't have good enough systems to hear the superior quality (if
the surface noise doesn't bother you) of vinyl vis-a-vis compact disc.  I
would extend the argument to say that it's a pretty small subset of Zorn
listeners who would even have the opportunity to hear the difference in
terms of sound quality (more precisely, lack thereof)
between the digital version of the Mystic Fugu Orchestra and an 78 rpm
analog version of the same.

Now, the packaging on vinyl is a completely different story.  Zorn could
have easily put the record out as a 10" 45 (or 33).  Too bad.

Alexander





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Damien Cassidy/Acton/NFSA <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 23 Jan 1996 15:17:59 EAT

>> If anyone can pass this on, I believe the EXPERT STYLUS COMPANY have a 78
>> cutting lathe.

>Which brings up a good point about the impracticality of releasing a 78.
>While I DO have a turntable (and a fancy one at that) which is capable of
>78 rpm as well as the usual 33 and 45, I still can't play 78s because
>they require the use of a different stylus

Not to play a new 78 you wouldn't. The old 78's used a larger sized groove
called coarse groove which is why you need a larger stylus but if a disc was
cut today it could be cut as microgroove (if you wanted), the same as on a
standard LP. You could you the same stylus on it and it would probably sound
very good but if Zorn wanted the old sound he'd probably be best off having one
disc cut as coarse groove and then recording back to digital and releasing it
on CD. Maybe even add some surface noise and distortion to age the sound.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ellis Godard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 23 Jan 1996 00:36:07 -0500

At 12:24 PM 1/22/96 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>Now, if you want the complete list of Zorn's records on vinyl...
>    Patrice.

Okay, sure. :)
Ellis


 Ellis Godard [phone]; POB 3350 Charlottesville 22903
  Sociology Doctoral Candidate, SOC 495 TA, Phish FAQ Admin
[e-mail] [e-mail] [e-mail]
  WWW homepage URL: http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~jeg5s
======================================================================
 "When one dives into endlessness, in both space and time,
farther and farther without stopping, one needs fixed points
 or milestones past which one speeds.  Without these, one's
movement does not differ from standing still." --M.C. Escher





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jake Rodriguez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Some amusement for the list.
Date: 22 Jan 1996 21:55:22 -0800 (PST)

Thought this might make a few people smile:

I was in L.A. a couple of weeks ago and I was introduced to a man named
Juan Zorn.

Swear it's true,
Jake ([e-mail])



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Drew <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 23 Jan 1996 00:13:10 -0700 (MST)

On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:18:42 -0700 (MST)  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > I have seen _Spy Vs. Spy_ on vinyl and own _Guts of a Virgin_ on vinyl.
>
> True Drew, but I was trying to answer the question, which happens to be fairly
> precise about the labels concerned :-).

Did I try to flame you or put you down?  I didn't think so.  I was just
trying to _contribute_, as you were, also.

>
> Now, if you want the complete list of Zorn's records on vinyl...
>
>     Patrice.
>

Drew.

- --
Andrew Ramsey - Phoenix, Arizona USA
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Pissing us all off
Date: 23 Jan 1996 17:47:54 GMT

[e-mail] wrote:
> Subject: just to piss you all off
>
> ...in my personal experence ive found that the majority of jazz fans not
> just the avant-garde tend to be muscians,  as opposed to rocks non-musician
> fans.  this applies to a lot of modern orchetrial music as well IMO.  i have
> only been to 1 zorn performance ... but i noticed a really diverse crowd
> seemingly not as musicany as most jazz shows not that you can really tell.
> my question then is how many of you are musicians/composers?

This smacks of a similar thread that has been running on rec.music.bluenote,
namely, "do you have to be a musician to like jazz?"  First up, I see no
reason why one has also to be an artist to appreciate art, so no musical
training should be needed to appreciate any form of music -- either you like
it, or you don't (knowing the theory behind it won't change your opinion,
but you might end up admiring the composer for some reason).  Secondly, since
the vast majority of the music under discussion here receives scant media
coverage, it is highly likely that the majority of people who might encounter
such music are those attending music lessons, since music students have to
have exposure to as much music (and musical styles) as possible.

Why so many un-trained people (like myself) should plump for Zorn is anybody's
guess.  Maybe they find out about him through Mr. Bungle, or Patton's work
with Faith No More, or maybe they are fans of Mick Harris' old band, Napalm
Death.  Perhaps they like Laswell, and just want to complete their collections,
and accidentally discover another world.  Maybe they like Zappa, and think that
anyone who has a name that begins with Z must be doing something that `deviates
from the norm'.  Or, like me, they see a review for a Naked City record that
says, "The greatest band of its type in the World, because they are the only
band of its type in the World."  It intrigued me, and the rest, as they say, is
history.

Point is, does it matter whether you've had a musical grounding, or not?

It certainly doesn't limit my enjoyment.

Dem

P.S. Jesse Canterbury <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Subject: 4'33'' recordings
>
> we're still talking about 4'33'', right?  do you even need a
> recording?  i mean, one performance, one record-listening maybe, then
> you don't really need it, right?

As I understand Cage's description of 4' 33", you are absolutely right.
Every performance should be different.  I guess the question then is, "Do
you hear the same version each time even from a recording?"



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: just to piss you all off
Date: 23 Jan 1996 12:11:10 -0800

On Sat, 20 Jan 1996 17:33:43 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> At 6:38 PM 1/19/96, [e-mail] wrote:
> >my question then is how many of you are
> >musicians/composers?
>
> I am an opera singer and do some composing. My guitar playing is jazz.
>
> I ran into someone who had first hand information of Zorn being a real,
> well, asshole - blacklisting people from the Knitting Factory, that kind of
> shit. Any foundation to this rumor?

Zorn has the reputation of being BS-free; in the mind of some people, it is
more than what is needed to qualify for an asshole.

Look at what he is doing with Avant and Tzadik, and it should tell you a
lot on what kind of person he is (faithful, commited, etc).

It is true that Zorn does not respect too much journalists, record label
owners and concert organizers who had been jumping on him since he became
hip. I kind of like this attitude.

    Patrice.



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From: Matt Walsh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn vinyl
Date: 23 Jan 1996 15:55:00 PST


>I have seen _Spy Vs. Spy_ on vinyl and own _Guts of a Virgin_ on vinyl.
>
>Drew.

Neither of these are on Tzadik nor Avant (to my knowledge - "Spy vs. Spy" is
on Elektra and "Guts Of A Virgin" is on Earache/Toy's Factory). The point
was asked about these two labels, though I didn't know "Guts If A Virgin"
was available on vinyl.
I'm sure most of Zorn's older material is available on vinyl, as I know a
store near me is selling "The Big Gundown" on vinyl.

Matt Walsh
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Tzadik records to France and Masada IV ?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 09:42:00 +0100

Hi,

i'm french and here we have some difficulties to found zorn records. Since 5
years it's getting better but as Zorn always use japanese and other strange
labels...

So, i've seen in patrice Roussel discography many records on Tzadik label but
here nobody have heard of this label even my favourite records shop. So if
anyone can give me details on it : address, if we can order from France, if it
have a distributot in France and his address, if it has e-mail...

Thanks.

I have an other question about Masada 4. We can't found it in France and a
record shop in Belgium told me it doesn't exist. Is it real and if real what is
the reason ?

Many thanks
[e-mail]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 09:04:40 GMT


[e-mail] (SEAN TERWILLIGER) wrote:
> Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
>
> GG>7001-7014, 7016-7017, 7021-7022 are available.
>                          ^^^^^^^^^
> What are these??

They were meant to be:

7021 - Aiyb Dieng - Rhythmagick

7022 - Third Rail - South Delta Space Age

As Jeff Spirer, of Axiom web-page fame, advised me to get the Dieng
album on P-Vine Records (PCD-5801) from Japan, I assume that it never
surfaced on Subharmonic, and presume the same holds true for the Third
Rail.

Maybe Jeff can clarify the situation for us?

Dem

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From: [e-mail] (Jeff Spirer)
Subject: Re: Subharmonic out of print?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 06:54:39 -0800

At 1:04 AM 1/24/96, [e-mail] wrote:

>They were meant to be:
>
>7021 - Aiyb Dieng - Rhythmagick
>
>7022 - Third Rail - South Delta Space Age
>
>As Jeff Spirer, of Axiom web-page fame, advised me to get the Dieng
>album on P-Vine Records (PCD-5801) from Japan, I assume that it never
>surfaced on Subharmonic, and presume the same holds true for the Third
>Rail.

Rhythmagick was released on Blues Interactions, which is P-Vine, around six
months ago; Third Rail (James "Blood" Ulmer) just got released on either
P-Vine or Polystar (I won't have a copy until next week so I am not sure) a
few weeks ago.  Both of these are extremely difficult to find in the US,
although they appear to be obtainable in Europe.

There was promotional literature that said they were appearing on
Subharmonic (complete with the numbering above), but obviously they did not
appear.  Both are still without labels, which is unfortunate.  The Third
Rail recording is *completely* different than anything Ulmer has done
before; maybe someday it will get released here.


Jeff Spirer   [e-mail]
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: Some amusement for the list.
Date: 24 Jan 1996 11:49:14 -0500

>Thought this might make a few people smile:
>
>I was in L.A. a couple of weeks ago and I was introduced to a man named
>Juan Zorn.

>Swear it's true,
>Jake ([e-mail])

When I was in high school (20 years ago),
the V.Principal was named Zorn.
He didn't like us too much.


David Beardsley
[e-mail]

http://www.synet.net/sonic-boom/labels/immp.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  IMMP music recordings:
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  strange beautiful music.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK! music.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: re:  Tzadik business?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 11:49:16 -0500

on Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:21:19 -0500, [e-mail]  (aka LT) writes:

>Since we're talking about the business aspects of labels, does anybody know
>how Tzadik is financed?  To put out that many albums in such a short period
>would require a fairly hefty investment.  Is it all Zorn's?  Are there other
>backers?  I wonder how they're selling.  I've seen only a couple of reviews.
>
>Best, LT

I was told that Tzadik is distributed by KOCH, a major distributor
of "classical" music and they financed Tzadik. Sounds good to me.

David Beardsley
[e-mail]

http://www.synet.net/sonic-boom/labels/immp.html
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  IMMP music recordings:
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * send email for a catalog of this
* * * * * * * * * * * * *  strange beautiful music.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * and coming soon: BINK! music.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:       Ned Rothenberg release?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 11:06:13 CST6CDT

Well now that things have settled down under the new format, I'm getting
used to spending an hour reading the digests!!!

>     hence, a question about whether or not this group considers it a
>     "breach of protocol" for private individuals (i.e., those of us
>     (stuff deleted etc.) to occasionally post to this list offers >of
>     LEGITIMATE commercially available recordings for sale and/or trade

I don't mind, I've done it myself, recieved no flames, and more than
doubled my illegitimate collection!

Also, last summer I saw Ned Rothenburg's Power Lines Ensemble at the
Knitting Factory with Rothenburg & Zorn opening as a duo.  Excellent
compositions and the ensemble featured a plethora of KF favorites
including Mark Feldman, Dave Douglas,  Mark Dresser, Glen Velez, etc.
Ned said they were going into the studio the next day to cut a CD with
that group.  Has anyone seen or know any info of this release.  I can't
remember the label he said it would be on. (I know it wasn't KF Works)

Thanks in advance for any info

Chris Sipe
[e-mail]


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:       tape cuts & Laswell
Date: 24 Jan 1996 15:05:17 CST6CDT

>> >I mean, anybody can take a tape and a razorblade, or a digital
>>editing
   (stuff deleted)
>I guess when you get right down to it, the studio is a new art form and
>new art forms are often looked down upon by those who don't understand
its point.
>
>matt

I strongly agree with matt.  Zorn is one of those artists who believes
in fully utilizing recording technology  to the nth degree if that isn't
readily apparent to some.  I am a musician first, but also a gainfully
employed recording engineer.  I appreciate a live performance as much as
the next guy, but the studio, approached differently by musicians (than
a live performance) can be just as creative an experience.  It's another
performance technique if realized.

A good example of this is Zorn's production of Mr. Bungle's first CD,
which I consider an engineering masterpiece.  His production of that
album has been debated but I believe that he is (mostly) responsible for
how excellent that CD "sounded." (I give the engineer some credit too)
Zorn's albums are never sonically lacking, and he always knows how to
gear the recorded sound to the music or project.

> I imagine a meeting: "Yes Bill, this collaboration between a reggae
>rhythm section, Indian violinists and percussionists, free jazz
>horns, and ex-members of Funkadelic has great commercial potential. Do
>you think you
> could find a lead guitar player who wears a mask and claims to be
>related to poultry?

That's hilarious.  He's another one though.  Laswell gets some AMAZING
sounds.

CS
Chris Sipe
[e-mail]
Creator of the UNT Percussion site:
http://www.music.unt.edu/Percussion/Main.html

"Make way for the Iron Sausage!" - Bald Headed John
                                   from Zappa's Joe's Garage

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Me <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tzadik records to France and Masada IV ?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 19:04:52 -0600 (CST)


On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> So, i've seen in patrice Roussel discography many records on Tzadik label but
> here nobody have heard of this label even my favourite records shop. So if
> anyone can give me details on it : address, if we can order from France, if it
> have a distributot in France and his address, if it has e-mail...

3 of the 30 Tzadik discs are handled outside of the US by Evva.  Those
titles are: Kristalnacht, Elegy, and Locus Solus.  The remaining 27
releases are distributed in England by a company called Impetus.  I would
imagine that if you looked them up they would be able to help you, or
have your local shop owner imquire for you.  Unfortunately, I don not
have the address of Impetus.

> I have an other question about Masada 4. We can't found it in France and a
> record shop in Belgium told me it doesn't exist. Is it real and if real what is
> the reason ?

Masada 4 was only obtainable by sending in proofs of purchase from the
first three to DIW in Japan.  The offer has lapsed and DIW has no
remaining copies left, so you're out of luck on this one.  Interestingly,
since instructions for the offer were written only in Japanese, I
would imagine probably 95% of the people outside of Japan had no idea the
offer even existed.

Out 2 lunch with lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Me <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Tzadik business?
Date: 24 Jan 1996 19:10:20 -0600 (CST)


On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 [e-mail] wrote:

> I was told that Tzadik is distributed by KOCH, a major distributor
> of "classical" music and they financed Tzadik. Sounds good to me.

To give KOCH International some more props, it's worthwhile to point out
that they also handle the distribution chores for Knitting Factory Works
here in the US and in Canada.

Out 2 lunch with lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: The John Zorn (and other downtown NYC musicians) Mailing List Digest V1 #10
Date: 24 Jan 1996 20:03:34 -0800

Heard about a book titled The Happy Mutant Handbook by Frauenfelder and many
others.  My cool friend Mike in Chicago told me about it.  He said Zorn is
mentioned in it.  Anyone have it?

MUSHROOMHEAD

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: just to piss you all off
Date: 24 Jan 1996 20:27:19 -0400


>Zorn has the reputation of being BS-free; in the mind of some people, it is
>more than what is needed to qualify for an asshole.
>
>Look at what he is doing with Avant and Tzadik, and it should tell you a
>lot on what kind of person he is (faithful, commited, etc).
>
>It is true that Zorn does not respect too much journalists, record label
>owners and concert organizers who had been jumping on him since he became
>hip. I kind of like this attitude.
>
>        Patrice.

i couldnt aggre more patrice,  i find his attitude inspiring.

david

Cattiva come adesso, non sono stato mai.



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From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: READ ME - new zorn-list server!
Date: 31 Jan 1996 15:24:35 -0800 (PST)

    Hola Zorn List!

    You may wonder why the traffic to the zorn-list has slowed
    down...well, our host computer for the zorn-list, xmission.com
    is in the process of changing list servers from majordomo
    to SmartList. How this will affect us all, has yet to
    be determined...I'll keep y'all posted (tell your friends
    who are on the zorn-list-digest that is why a digest
    hasn't been sent out since Jan. 23rd).

    Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope this isn't
    painful.  :)

    thanks,
    mike rizzi
    p.s. If you have opinions on how you would like to see the
    archives structured please email me privately. The new
    system will build one archive file for every month (of course,
    digests will still go out with their normal (ir)regularity).
    If you prefer a one digest = one archive file approach
    let me know. Also, any opinions about archive file
    naming conventions are appreciated.



--
[e-mail] ------------------------------------------- [e-mail]
-=work=-             "Another nerd with a soulpatch"              -=home=-
                      http://www.meer.net/~browbeat/
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 ---------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: READ ME - new zorn-list server!
Date: 31 Jan 1996 19:03:48 -0500

I like the digest format. Maybe it will help cut down on the folks who need
to reply to everything thats posted. Also, its like receiving one big
present. Please post information when the next issue of your mag is
available. By the way, do you know how Eye is? I heard several weeks back
that he was very ill from a lung infection he got in India. Sounded very
serious. Super Roots 6 was released on 1/25 in Japan. 5 is way dull.