ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/zorn-list.200006

Internet Message Format | 2000-06-30 | 660KB

From: myke cuthbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: This event might interest you...
Date: 01 Jun 2000 02:15:46 -0400


On a similar Boston radio related note, Harvard radio, (www.whrb.org
95.3) is playing 80 hours of electronic music over five days, from
late 7 June until 12 June (most of the non electronic stuff is
happening midday june8, commencement day; so avoid
that). 1920s-present.

msc


[e-mail] wrote on May 31:
> Thought you guys and gals might like to hear this.  New music by a
> relatively new duo in Boston.  On http://wmbr.mit.edu

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From: Zach Griffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Extra Ornette Ticket...Who Wants It???
Date: 01 Jun 2000 09:55:15 -0400

Hi,
   Forgive my solicitation on this list but here is my situation.  The
friend who I was supposed to go see the Ornette Coleman concert with
tonight at Battery Park has cancelled out on me a couple of days ago.  I
have tried to get other friends to go yesterday.  But it is too last
minute for any of them to change their plans.  Since I know that some of
the Zorn fans are also Ornette fans (like me), I am offering my lawn
ticket at half-price ($11.00).  Think of it is a Zornlist special.  If
you want it, please respond to this email privately by 1:30pm.  I will
be leaving from Connecticut at that time.  I will check my email before
I leave and get into contact with the first person that responds.

Thanks,
Zach Griffin


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From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: extra tix for Yo La Tengo w/Susie Ibarra Friday
Date: 01 Jun 2000 10:32:00 -0400

Like Zach, please forgive me for the NZC of this email.

I have two tickets for Yo La Tengo at Irving Plaza on Friday, June 2.
They're playing with Susie Ibarra.  I will sell them for face value
which is 16.50 each.  Please email me if interested.

Thanks,
Dan Hewins

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From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:  brotzmann 10tet + 2 in sf
Date: 01 Jun 2000 11:38:58 -0700 (PDT)

>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:45:35 -0700
>From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: brotzmann 10tet + 2 in sf

>Any So. California dates?

That would be excellent if they were coming down
there, but I'll drive to SF to see them if not.  I
think the Okka site or something listed a "west coast
tour" so I guess they'll hit more than San Francisco.
Of course that doesn't mean So. Cal is included but
there's hope.

I just got the Stone/Water cd and it's great.  I
hadn't realized that the pieces they played that night
in Victoriaville weren't all represented on the 3cd
set.  Of course my memory was jogged pretty well after
hearing the disc.

Anyway, it got me thinking that even though I have the
3cd set, I'd still like to hear the versions from the
festival.  So, anyone who taped it off the radio and
is willing to make a copy for me (I don't have
anything to trade, but I'll send the tapes and $ for
postage) please e-mail me off list.

Thanks much,

Ryan N.


__________________________________________________
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: brotzmann 10tet + 2 in sf
Date: 01 Jun 2000 11:54:17 -0700


For those in Portland (OR), the Peter Brotzmann 12tet will play on June 21 at
the McGuire Auditorium (Campus of Warner Pacific College).

    Patrice.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: brotzmann in boston
Date: 01 Jun 2000 16:09:43 EDT

for you boston brotzmann fans:

 -the Peter Brotzmann 12~Tet is scheduled to play at the Middle East (Cambridge, Ma) on the 29th. tour schedule on Joe McPhee's home page, <www.joemcphee.com>-

over and out...



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: webern box set
Date: 01 Jun 2000 20:02:07 EDT

In a message dated 5/31/00 4:51:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< eye em aitch oh, wait till they kicks it, then examine and enjoy away.
  >>

One of my main caveats re this issue is the fact this:

Artists seek to create a body of work.  As soon as any little fragment or
'lesser' item is made public, regardless of who judges it that way, it
becomes part of that body, against the artist's wishes.  Do we then judge
said debris - lets face it, no matter how high quality, it still is very
often just that, in comparison with the rest of the particular oeuvre (sp?)
in question - on equal terms?  To do so would seem patently absurd.  To say
that an artist is not the most qualified person to judge this is also absurd.
 If we trust an artist to provide us with edification of any sort, can we not
trust him to also to decide what enters his body of work, no matter what we
may feel about it?

Any remnant, no matter how historically important, has NEVER satisfied me
even in the tiniest percentage of the original amount of satisfaction that I
gain from their masterworks.  To demand EVERYTHING is simply greed.

Also, the notion that the 'past' album is almost never their best due to
'lost magic' is a gross over-generalization.  If in your eyes, there's a lost
magic, then shouldn't you look to yourself first to make sure that you tried
YOUR hardest?  God forbid that the artist should want to change whatever
passes for his 'magical' inspiration once in a while...

I don't claim to have all the answers, (though I likely will be accused of
thinking that I do), but I would like to think that we can view our artists
as more than merely creative  slaves whose every last dropping is available
to satiate our gluttonous artistic desires.

-matt mitchell

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: webern box set
Date: 01 Jun 2000 18:25:03 -0700


On Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:02:07 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Artists seek to create a body of work.  As soon as any little fragment or
> 'lesser' item is made public, regardless of who judges it that way, it
> becomes part of that body, against the artist's wishes.  Do we then judge
> said debris - lets face it, no matter how high quality, it still is very
> often just that, in comparison with the rest of the particular oeuvre (sp?)
> in question - on equal terms?  To do so would seem patently absurd.  To say
> that an artist is not the most qualified person to judge this is also absurd.
>  If we trust an artist to provide us with edification of any sort, can we not
> trust him to also to decide what enters his body of work, no matter what we
> may feel about it?

You talk in the abstract and ignoring any material constraints, as if the
artist was living in Disneyland...

The only problem is that the artist is also part of a socio-economic process.
As such, he is put in a competitive environment where he is supposed to
deliver because if he fails to do so, he will be thrown away (and I am not
only talking about rock music; this is also true, but in a different form,
in less commercial forms of art).

I will also mention something that is taboo: maybe the artist, after a few
sparks of creativity, has not much to add. But since he has put a big
portion of his life in his artistic carreer, he has to keep going on.

This situation makes it sometimes hard to know if the artist is talking
sincerely of what he is doing, or simply playing the game of economics.
It is well known that some elements of artistic activity grow with
experience/age: craftmanship, mastery of the instrument (if we put aside
the acrobatics), arranging skills, etc. On the other side, all these
skills are usually absent from the early works of many of the artists
that we are talking about on this list (Zorn was an exciting player in the
late '70s, but not the level that is showing now in Masada). So, why did
we in first place got excited by them?

Let's face it, if an artist was acknowledging that his last record sucks,
that would be counterproductive, right? But, if I follow you, such situation
is impossible because an artist would never do a bad record, right? It is
only us, the consummer, who are not doing our homework, right?

> Any remnant, no matter how historically important, has NEVER satisfied me
> even in the tiniest percentage of the original amount of satisfaction that I
> gain from their masterworks.  To demand EVERYTHING is simply greed.

I agree with you with the "necrophilic" attitude of labels/publishers to
put out every crumbs.

> Also, the notion that the 'past' album is almost never their best due to
> 'lost magic' is a gross over-generalization.  If in your eyes, there's a lost
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sure! I agree that I was exagerating. But don't you feel sometimes that
you don't agree with an artist when he claims that his last record is the
best? Or does the fact that he claims it to be so is enough for you to
turn off any critical judgement?

    Patrice.

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: tape traders...
Date: 01 Jun 2000 16:05:22 EDT

hello zorn-listers.

i have started an email list for tape traders. the focus is improv, experimental, noise and all that "jazz" (hehe).

to subscribe please go to:

http://www.egroups.com/group/improv-trade

peace. jason w. t.



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: webern box set
Date: 02 Jun 2000 00:35:17 EDT

Patrice,

I agree with a number of the things you say, yet they don't necessarily have
a bearing on the point I was trying to make.

I'm not suggesting that we suspend critical judgement, only that we suspend
our demand for every last scrap of material from an artist.  However, the
amount of work and thought we as 'consumer,' 'listener,' etc. that we put in
needs to be seriously reassessed

I agree that sometimes the artists we know run out of things to say.
Sometimes they over-burden us with a massive catalog.  (Paul Bley, David
Murray, Braxton...even Zorn, dare I say)  In either case, why argue for the
right to sift throught the remains an drag out the items the artist himself
did not consider essential.  Those that run out of ideas most likely won't be
hiding anything else, and over-recorded artists make our work cut out for us
already.

Who's over-recorded and underrecorded, though, is a different and less
interesting (to me) bag of (insert small object)

Also: if anyone exists that would admit that their last record sucked or was
sub-par, then they're not an artist, and thus they also would be outside the
crux of this particular biscuit.  Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration when
assessing their work for ourselves.

Its my guess, though, that most artists worthy of the term would view their
body of work as an ever-changing entity, something that would change shape
each new addition and take on new overall significance.  This, to me, is one
of the truly fascinating aspects of studying an artist.  The finest in their
field all have this going for them: Duke, Miles, Keith Jarrett, Zappa,
Prince, Xenakis, Wolgang Rihm, Elliott Carter (to name just some of my
favorites)

-matt mitchell

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From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: transmissions festival update
Date: 02 Jun 2000 01:59:08 -0400 (EDT)


july 14-15
cats' cradle, carrboro, nc

transmissions site http://transmit.org

pita, fennesz, rafael toral, kim cascone, hazard, david grubbs, john
fahey, marcus schmickler, alan licht, dean roberts, pelt, lucky kitchen,
rhband, vote robot, idyll swords, zuerichten, keenan lawler, miss
murgatroid + films & audio installations

just a brief note to mention that the transmissions site ( transmit.org )
has been updated to include the schedule, accommodation information, and a
map to the cat's cradle.

we should be shortly announcing the film, video, and installation
information, including specific works and location details.

a limited number of tickets are still available through the website, and
should also currently be aquarius records in san francisco, ear-xtacy, and
ground zero in louisville, and cd alley and schoolkids records in chapel
hill.

tickets can also be mailordered; please contact [e-mail] to
notify us of how many tickets you would to reserve.

please let us know if you have any other questions ( [e-mail] )


thanks to everyone for the interest -
 keenan

________________________________________
k e e n a n mcdonald.              t r a n s o o 3
post  box 1816.    west jefferson  nc.       28694
[e-mail]        - - - - -       transmit.org




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From: "& c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:12:05 EDT

Does any one know anything about the band Sex Mob.  I just bought Solid
Sender on a whim.  Mainly because of the Knitting Factory connection.  i
just want to know the opinion of them in the avant garde scene.


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:22:40 -0400

sex mob is a band you have to check out live to fully get into what
they are doing. I am not a fan of solid sender, the first album is
much better in my opinion.

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From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: sex mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 16:47:20 +0200

I like Solid Sender a lot. There's much fun and great playing.

Jan Luyben


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From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: bill frisell interview online
Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:43:28 -0500 (CDT)


stumbled onto this, if anyone is interested

http://www.sonicnet.com/jazz/features/Frisell,_Bill/051500/

cheers,
whit


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From: Arthur Rother <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sex mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 18:11:40 -0700

They play many  songs live, that are on no album.

I really liked all that J. Bond stuff. But notting on CD except Goldfinger.


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From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 13:04:17 -0400

Hello &,

Friday, June 02, 2000, you wrote to me:

c> Does any one know anything about the band Sex Mob.  I just bought Solid
c> Sender on a whim.  Mainly because of the Knitting Factory connection.  i
c> just want to know the opinion of them in the avant garde scene.

Steven Bernstein has different own projects as well as he is playing
as a member of other groups like Kamikaze Ground Crew. Sex Mob is the
most joyful and bright quartet you have to check live. His Millenial
Territory Orchestra is another very interesting collective where they
are trying to play Ellington music. His CD Diaspora Soul on Tzadik is
one of my favorites on the label too. And the last thing I want to add
that he was a music director of Kansas City Band from Robert Altman's
Kansas City movie so he is even more famous as an arranger.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



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From: "Francisco =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fonz=2DGarc=E9s?=" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 19:46:55 +0200

Peter Gannushkin wrote:
> Steven Bernstein has different own projects as well as he is playing
> as a member of other groups like Kamikaze Ground Crew. Sex Mob is the
> most joyful and bright quartet you have to check live. His Millenial
> Territory Orchestra is another very interesting collective where they
> are trying to play Ellington music. His CD Diaspora Soul on Tzadik is
> one of my favorites on the label too. And the last thing I want to add
> that he was a music director of Kansas City Band from Robert Altman's
> Kansas City movie so he is even more famous as an arranger.

Still musical director in Lurie's Loungue Lizards?

Ciao
Paco
--
<HTML>
<HEAD>
   <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
   <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Mozilla/4.03 [es] (Macintosh; I; PPC) [Netscape]">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<TT>------------------------------------------</TT>
<BR><TT>francisco fonz-garcés</TT>
<BR><TT>po box 199 22080 huesca spain (europe)</TT>
<BR><TT>[e-mail]</TT>
<BR><TT>http://teleline.terra.es/personal/pacofonz</TT>
<BR><TT>[e-mail]</TT>
<BR><TT>[e-mail]</TT>
<BR><TT>------------------------------------------</TT>
</BODY>
</HTML>

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: webern box set
Date: 02 Jun 2000 10:49:34 -0700


On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:35:17 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Also: if anyone exists that would admit that their last record sucked or was
> sub-par, then they're not an artist, and thus they also would be outside the
> crux of this particular biscuit.  Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
> last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration when
> assessing their work for ourselves.

I have a different opinion here. Artists sometimes try new things that go
nowhere. Through history, we tend to only remember the ones that really
succeeded (the bins of art are quite full with failed attempts). All this to
say that an artist can recognize that his last record is not up to what he
expected because he tried something new and, finally, it ended up to be short
on promise. I am just sad that I never read about artists acknowledging, once
in a while, that their last record was lackluster (when there is sometimes a
silence conspiracy indicating that the result was... so-so, to say the least).
A typical situation on this list is the great expectections that upcoming
records are producing. Then, when the record is released, you barely read
anything really positive about it (I pass on the usual "interesting"). But
people have already jumped on the next upcoming one (which should put the
situation straight).

    Patrice.


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From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 14:24:16 -0400

Hello Francisco,

Friday, June 02, 2000, you wrote to me:

FFG> Peter Gannushkin wrote:
>> Steven Bernstein has different own projects as well as he is playing
>> as a member of other groups like Kamikaze Ground Crew. Sex Mob is the
>> most joyful and bright quartet you have to check live. His Millenial
>> Territory Orchestra is another very interesting collective where they
>> are trying to play Ellington music. His CD Diaspora Soul on Tzadik is
>> one of my favorites on the label too. And the last thing I want to add
>> that he was a music director of Kansas City Band from Robert Altman's
>> Kansas City movie so he is even more famous as an arranger.

FFG> Still musical director in Lurie's Loungue Lizards?

I'm not sure. He was musical director for several years but I don't
think he still is.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



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From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 02 Jun 2000 13:47:35 CDT

> > Also: if anyone exists that would admit that their last record sucked or
>was
> > sub-par, then they're not an artist....

What bothers me about this statement is that it seems to not make sense.  If
one must compulsively give pride of place to one's most recent work, then
one is an egomaniac, not (necessarily) an artist.  All that an artist _must_
do is PRODUCE, consciously (and even _that_ criterion is "iffy").  To stay
interested in one's work, to maintain a livelihood, to maintain the hype, to
deepen or insure one's enclave in the tumultuous annals of history....all
_these_ are reasons to promote the current.  And proximity, which is less
cynical and more natural a reason: whatever's just finished
is---assumedly---closest to who that producer is as a person RIGHT NOW; that
person, not worried about the annals of history, is happy to be alive and
productive, and here (i.e. here, the most recent fruits of his/her labours)
is the proof of that persistence.  But that doesn't mean we stop being
critical consumers (ouch! did I say "consumers"?  ouch!)

>Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
>last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration
>when
>assessing their work for ourselves.

If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
ourselves_.

Patrice Roussel responded to the above quoted comments:
>Through history, we tend to only remember the ones that really
>succeeded (the bins of art are quite full with failed attempts)...

1. I'd be interested to know what constitutes a "real" success, outside the
usual categories: platinum sales; "historical" "significance"; persistence
of popularity, even if diffuse (i.e. cult followings, resurgences, massive
subtle influence, critical acclaim amidst the ruins of popular ignorance,
etc.), etc etc.  I can intuitively agree with you: sometimes I feel that
someone shot for something, missed, and failed to even accidentally hit
anything interesting.  But I also feel (ah! the avant-gardist in me!) that
there may be new ways to look at old failures which makes the clarity of the
success/failure dichotomy less, well, clear.  Anyway, my question would be:
do we remember the works because they succeeded, or did they succeed
_because they WERE REMEMBERED_?  This leads me to my third point, right
after my next point...

>I am just sad that I never read about artists acknowledging, once
>in a while, that their last record was lackluster

2. Absolutely agreed!  More refreshing and more edifying than humility,
"modesty", or self-deprecation, would be the ability to shrug off a
(perceived) failure and say, "The next go-around will be a lot more fun" or
"Perhaps _someone_ will find it interesting" or take the John Coltrane (or,
for that matter, Cornel West) route and just be tremendously excited about
What's Next.

>But
>people have already jumped on the next upcoming one (which should put the
>situation straight).

The constant threat and promise of history---above and beyond the present
pleasures of fame and even wealth and power---and the "speeding up" of
history, the acceleration and exponential growth in mass quantity of
information that one can/should/must consume, now means that we must promote
with hyperbole, constantly.  Which is why every new novel is the greatest of
his/her generation, if not century; why Evan Parker is "the most innovative
saxophonist since John Coltrane", etc etc, blah blah blah.  It is the
perfect way to cater to the needs of those who love substance and fear
profusion, who flounder in the ocean of _information_ (which should not, as
Caleb Carr has put it, be confused with _knowledge_); it is the perfect way
not to even cynically dupe the masses into consuming a product in huge
quanitities, but rather a survival mechanism designed to allow an
artist/album/performance/utterance/idea to be noticed in the first place.  A
form of economic selection, of competition.  So the survival instinct in an
artist might move him/her to promote himself/herself basec on current work.

-----s
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: eric ong <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lurie brothers & Marc Ribot (fwd)
Date: 02 Jun 2000 18:22:56 -0400 (EDT)

This was probably meant for the list...


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Hi,

I know it's not very polite, but it's my last chance...
I'm a french fan of the new-york jazz scene, and especially of John & Evan
Lurie, Marc Ribot, Arto Lindsay, Ezter Balint...
For many years I try to find some records of those people, but i really
don't find them on the internet or in some french strores.
Could you help me if you have those records (of course i could send you some
money) or if you can tell me where i can find them :

1/ Live from drunken boat (LP, Europa 1983) : lounge lizards
2/ Big Heart live in tokyo (japanese version) : Lounge Lizards
3/ Banned from 93 countries : the terminators

Many thanks
Benoit



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From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sex Mob
Date: 02 Jun 2000 20:20:22 -0400


    I too own Solid Sender and love it very much.  I just look at them as a
Rock And Roll band played with "Jazz instruments" (if you know what I mean),
and of course with that inevitable Jazz feeling.  I love the drunken sound
of the trumpet and the sax.

    I haven't seen them live and haven't heard the first album, but Solid
Sender is very good.  Their cover of ABBA's Fernando is very funny, it
sounds like a drunk MARIACHI band, if you know what I mean.

I understand the debut album has a cover of MACARENA, ... I have to hear
that!!!!

Neil H. Enet
------------


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 02 Jun 2000 22:50:47 EDT

In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
 ourselves_.
  >>

Bait?  You imply trickery or some such thing here.  If an artist does
something we don't like, then its bait?  What is it if we like it?  Or is it
'bait' no matter what, even if we like it?

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 03 Jun 2000 04:10:13 EDT

In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< >Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
 >last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration
 >when
 >assessing their work for ourselves.

 If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
 ourselves_.
  >>

I think that this is a fascinating subject.  A few years ago I had the
opportunity to spend an afternoon visiting with composer George Rochberg, an
80 year old composer who has been part of the avant-garde his whole life.  He
told me that during Beethoven's time , old Ludwig Van was asked by an
interviewer to state his favorite symphony.  Beethoven replied that the Third
 symphony, Eroica, was his favorite.  The interviewer was surprised because
he expected him to state a more obvious choice, the 5th or the 9th.

"Why do you suppose Ludwig chose the third?", Rochberg asked me.  If anyone
is interested I'll write back tomorrow with his answer.

Peace,
Bruce

www.eisenbeil.com

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From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: ...and I don't even listen to Webern...
Date: 03 Jun 2000 10:55:57 -0400


MEEP! [e-mail] wrote:
>whatever's just finished
>is---assumedly---closest to who that producer is as a person RIGHT NOW; that
>person, not worried about the annals of history, is happy to be alive and
>productive, and here (i.e. here, the most recent fruits of his/her labours)
>is the proof of that persistence.  But that doesn't mean we stop being
>critical consumers (ouch! did I say "consumers"?  ouch!)
It's funny that you should apologize for being a consumer. You mentioned
marketing hyperbole as being symptomatic of a mass of available
information, and a way of trying to make a single recording or artist stand
out in a sea of options. Isn't this sort of apology pretty much the same
thing on the consumer's side of the transaction, ie. "I'm not like the
other people here in this record store... I actually buy stuff because it
*means* something to me"?
  This isn't meant as a way of singling out a particular comment for
accusations of snobbery, either. Musicians on other mailing lists have
managed to get awfully worked up about how their output is perceived or
used by their audience, in some cases reaching the point of getting into
shit-flinging matches with people who were "obviously just missing the
point". Well, for multiple parties to reach the point of politely telling
one another to go fuck a lawnmower, there are obviously some strongly-held
convictions being trampled on or ignored. If we're all trying to establish
unique identities for ourselves in the face of market research, browser
cookies, and serial numbers, why not just assume that we're all just a tiny
bit different from one another, and that blanket statements about artistic
intent are always going to leave somebody out? C'mon, it's a nice day
outside... doesn't a popsicle and a walk in the park sound better than
sitting in front of a computer and getting all pasty-toned over
generalizations?

-me



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: ...and I don't even listen to Webern...
Date: 03 Jun 2000 09:47:43 -0400


MEEP! [e-mail] wrote:
>whatever's just finished
>is---assumedly---closest to who that producer is as a person RIGHT NOW; that
>person, not worried about the annals of history, is happy to be alive and
>productive, and here (i.e. here, the most recent fruits of his/her labours)
>is the proof of that persistence.  But that doesn't mean we stop being
>critical consumers (ouch! did I say "consumers"?  ouch!)
It's funny that you should apologize for being a consumer. You mentioned
marketing hyperbole as being symptomatic of a mass of available
information, and a way of trying to make a single recording or artist stand
out in a sea of options. Isn't this sort of apology pretty much the same
thing on the consumer's side of the transaction, ie. "I'm not like the
other people here in this record store... I actually buy stuff because it
*means* something to me"?
  This isn't meant as a way of singling out a particular comment for
accusations of snobbery, either. Musicians on other mailing lists have
managed to get awfully worked up about how their output is perceived or
used by their audience, in some cases reaching the point of getting into
shit-flinging matches with people who were "obviously just missing the
point". Well, for multiple parties to reach the point of politely telling
one another to go fuck a lawnmower, there are obviously some strongly-held
convictions being trampled on or ignored. If we're all trying to establish
unique identities for ourselves in the face of market research, browser
cookies, and serial numbers, why not just assume that we're all just a tiny
bit different from one another, and that blanket statements about artistic
intent are always going to leave somebody out? C'mon, it's a nice day
outside... doesn't a popsicle and a walk in the park sound better than
sitting in front of a computer and getting all pasty-toned over
generalizations?

-me


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wild Ginger Philharmonic
Date: 03 Jun 2000 11:13:55 -0400

Hi.

The Wild Ginger Philharmonic performs TONIGHT at Good Shepherd Church,
66th Street between Broadway and Amsterdam.

Philip Glass came to our concert yesterday, and was very impressed.

Here's a review from the Philadelphia Inquirer, about Wednesday's concert.

http://web.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/06/03/magazine/GINGER03.htm


More info on today's concert is at http://www.WildGinger.org/


See you there?

Regad's,

-Ljova



--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: sex mob
Date: 03 Jun 2000 10:54:36 -0500 (CDT)


i haven't heard the new album, and didn't care much for the first.
nonetheless i went to a recent gig of theirs (because beggars can't be
choosers in st. louis) and was very impressed.  lots of fun (as long as
the audience doesn't try to participate - a friend of mine tried to play a
metal chair with them, and the response was a definite 'no'), and great
musicianship.  however, the highlights of the show, for me at least,
ocurred when it was just the trio of krauss, wollesen, and the bass player
(the name escapes me) playing: the silliness dropped away, everything
opened up, and we were treated to some serious
post-miles-davis-second-quintet-style music (to my slightly inebriated
ears ;).  i would have preferred just the trio, although i'm not sure what
they would have done if left to their own devices, without berstein
calling the shots. just my 2 cents,
whit


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Rochberg's answer (Was Artists and their...)
Date: 03 Jun 2000 12:46:14 CDT

Yeh,
  hey Eisenbel Brucy... I be very interested in his answer.
       -Samuel



"Why do you suppose Ludwig chose the third?", Rochberg asked me.  If anyone
is interested I'll write back tomorrow with his answer.



-


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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Joe Gallivan/Rainforest Project at the Knit TONITE
Date: 03 Jun 2000 11:45:59 -0600

If anybody goes to this I'd love to hear about it.....

I saw Gallivan/McMinn/Austin/Cuomo on Maui - a bright spot in an
otherwise dull scene, I tell you...

Dan in Taos


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shankar and Glass, sittin in a tree
Date: 03 Jun 2000 12:51:57 CDT

hey anybody,
anyone heard the Ravi Shankar and Philip Glass CD yet?  what's people think?
  I hear bits and samples at a site, but i don't think that gave me a very
revealing glimpse.
  descriptions, reviews?
   thanks in advance.
        -Samuel


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "BROGGI, GUSTAVO" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sex Mob
Date: 03 Jun 2000 16:23:32 -0300

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BFCD91.37C5B3DE
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Talking about Sex Mob.  Does anybody knows if they will be playing in =
NYC
between June 18th and June 30th?.  I Know S. Berstein=B4s Millennial =
Territory
Orchestra will be at Tonic on June 30th.

Best

Gustavo=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01BFCD91.37C5B3DE
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<HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>Sex Mob</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Talking about Sex Mob.  =
Does anybody knows if they will be playing in NYC between June 18th and =
June 30th?.  I Know S. Berstein=B4s Millennial Territory Orchestra =
will be at Tonic on June 30th.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Best</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Gustavo </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 04 Jun 2000 01:53:59 GMT

>From: Matt Mitchell:
>
>I'm not suggesting that we suspend critical judgement,

I would suggest that we do suspend critical judgment or at least interrogate
it vigorously because if the best we can do when we encounter a new CD is
repeat the same old tired critical tropes that have been hanging around
since the days of German Romanticism, than we haven't learned a thing about
our music or why we cathect with it so regularly.

>I agree that sometimes the artists we know run out of things to say.
>Sometimes they over-burden us with a massive catalog.  (Paul Bley, David
>Murray, Braxton...even Zorn, dare I say)

Notice the elision here between statements or propositions and musical
productions.  Musicians "say" things with music (presumably with our overly
inscribed avant-gardist "trope-a-doping," we would demand that they "say"
something new.  Musicians have to "say" new things; we "critics" get to
reinvoke the same old ideologies).  Should we bitch at musicians as well
because they "over-burden us with a massive catalogue?"  Who needs to buy?
Some call it overproduction; I prefer to call it documentation.


>From: "Patrice L. Roussel"
>
>I have a different opinion here. Artists sometimes try new things that go
>nowhere. Through history, we tend to only remember the ones that really
>succeeded (the bins of art are quite full with failed attempts).

The issue of memory is interesting from the standpoint of who creates it and
for what purpose.  The reason a number of artists/musicians/writers are
confined to the "dustbins of history" is not because of "failures" (who
legislates something as an artistic failure and for what purpose?), but
because of who determines the history and what gets successively passed on.
Many of the people who determine these histories think they have a handle on
the "timeless" and "true" sense of "aesthetic value," but more often than
not, it's just their version that has won and can get passed along because
of the institutional capacities available to them.  What we remember is what
we are told to remember; what's interesting are the elisions of history
brought back to our "collective memory" after we've been told by the "elites
of good taste" to forget them because they have nothing to "say," or because
their work is "shit," or because their efforts have produced "failures" from
the standpoint of some "timeless and universal aesthetic" that those with
accrued and well-developed taste can discern.


>From: [e-mail]
>
>In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
>  ourselves_.
>   >>
>
>Bait?  You imply trickery or some such thing here.  If an artist does
>something we don't like, then its bait?  What is it if we like it?  Or is
>it
>'bait' no matter what, even if we like it?


Whether we like something or not, doesn't matter.  "Likes" are arbitrary
and artists aren't that sneaky, primarily because they're not that
interested in duping audiences any more than in pleasing them.

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Date: 03 Jun 2000 22:40:09 CDT

Bill said:
  "Whether we like something or not, doesn't matter.  "Likes" are
  arbitrary and artists aren't that sneaky, primarily because they're
  not that interested in duping audiences any more than in pleasing
  them."


Dearest Bill,
  In your message you communicated something successfully and eloquently
that I have trying to get across to people for a long time.  I agree in the
subjectiveness of likes and dislikes especially with something as abstract
as music.  Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
seriously could do some people a lot of good.  Musicians/artists should be
respected for the fact that they tried.
  thanks,
    -Samuel

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 03 Jun 2000 21:10:25 -0700

>>>Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
seriously could do some people a lot of good.  Musicians/artists should be
respected for the fact that they tried.<<<

np: Sax Hits of the 90s by Kenny G

"I am a great fan of Kenny G and know what a true genius Kenny G is on the
SAX. Love your music Kenny G and thank you for filling my heart and mind
with such sounds that words can not decribe."

  --Reviewer: A music fan from Uinted (sic) States of America [Amazon.com
customer review]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 07:58:02 GMT




>From: "s~Z" >>>Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking
>it so
>seriously could do some people a lot of good.  Musicians/artists should be
>respected for the fact that they tried.<<<
>
>np: Sax Hits of the 90s by Kenny G
>
>"I am a great fan of Kenny G and know what a true genius Kenny G is on the
>SAX. Love your music Kenny G and thank you for filling my heart and mind
>with such sounds that words can not decribe."
>
>   --Reviewer: A music fan from Uinted (sic) States of America [Amazon.com
>customer review]


Sounds like just another judgment to me, "uncritical" though it may be.  Of
course when one questions the path of criticism, the old aestheticists come
along invoking without being able to quote Adorno's anxieties about pop
culture that jived with his ethos of high modernism.  We get the either/or
fallacy:  either we resort to critical judgment or we end up with pop
stupidities, as if we wouldn't anyway, no matter the state of criticism.
Let it be said though that one can love John Zorn and his ilk, appropriate
the titles of Roland Barthes' books, and yet exhibit stupidities of kind
though not of degree of the Kenny G lover in question, particularly in
regard to what is considered "self-evident," the quote that refuses a
narrative to account for it.
________________________________________________________________________
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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 09:02:00 -0400

samuel yrui wrote:

>  I agree in the
> subjectiveness of likes and dislikes especially with something as abstract
> as music.  Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
> seriously could do some people a lot of good.  Musicians/artists should be
> respected for the fact that they tried.

We've had this argument several times before, but I still wonder at the
insistence on the suspension of judgment with regards to certain human
activities like music (or art in general) but not others. I take it the
same folk walk into voting booths and randomly pull levers, pick lovers
arbitrarily from a crowd and stick with them no matter what and
uncomplainingly tolerate crappily made shoes two sizes too small. Humans
are judgmental beings, human actions are open for judgment. Now, there's
certainly a difference between making one's pronouncements with near
religious certainty and simply offering them as one's (hopefully
well-grounded) opinions but, he says judgmentally, some humans are
jerks.

Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.

imho, of course.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 04 Jun 2000 10:58:57 EDT

 This debate of quality as percieved by the critics in contrast to the
publics acceptance or in opposition to the composers objective is one that
has been documented for a long time.    Beethoven chose his third symphony as
his favorite because it was with this one that his most dramatic
breakthroughs in harmony, melody and form occured.  The devices used in the
third were ones that he recognized as being his personal signature and from
this point he could develop his style from even further.



In a message dated 6/2/00 2:48:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
 [e-mail] writes:

 << >Yet, if an artist claims that he feels his
  >last work to be his finest, maybe we should take that into consideration
  >when
  >assessing their work for ourselves.

  If we follow the artist's bait, we no longer assess anything _for
  ourselves_.
   >>

 I think that this is a fascinating subject.  A few years ago I had the
 opportunity to spend an afternoon visiting with composer George Rochberg, an
 80 year old composer who has been part of the avant-garde his whole life.
He
 told me that during Beethoven's time , old Ludwig Van was asked by an
 interviewer to state his favorite symphony.  Beethoven replied that the
Third
  symphony, Eroica, was his favorite.  The interviewer was surprised because
 he expected him to state a more obvious choice, the 5th or the 9th.

 "Why do you suppose Ludwig chose the third?", Rochberg asked me.  If anyone
 is interested I'll write back tomorrow with his answer.

 Peace,
 Bruce

 www.eisenbeil.com



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 10:20:41 CDT

Brian wrote:

Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.

imho, of course.

Brian Olewnick


well spoken, and i agree to a certain extent.
but i think the quality of a shoe is comparible somewhat to the quality of a
recording. what i'm addressing, i think, is taste.  you can certainly judge
on matters of taste, but like you say, when it comes to taste it has to be
more of an opinion. the shoemaker has two jobs. making the shoe comfortable
and have it last a long time.  but the shoemaker also has to take fashion
into consideration.  as much as it's taboo to compare art to fashion, the
fashion of a shoe, and richness of musical or artistic ideas, is a matter of
taste.
some could say that minimalism is, in Philip Glass's case, just a bunch of
well orchestrated arpeggios, or, in Arvo Part's case, a bunch of pretty
repetetive choir music travelling in fifths. "hey, what the hell! Indian
classical music doesn't even modulate?  it must be less complex than OUR
music." sorry, i don't mean to drive the point so hard.
i guess i should stress that i don't mean people should suspend ALL
judgement. i just think that when people have a negative judgement they
perhaps could try to be less spiteful about it.  true, Kenny G and N'Sync
are quite commercialized.  but for the most part i don't really think they
are offending anyone's morality, so go ahead and dislike it, but don't state
objectively how their music is just bad according to universal laws.
  respectfully,
   -Samuel
PS
what does imho mean? i forgot.



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 08:17:04 -0700

>>>Let it be said though that one can love John Zorn and his ilk,
appropriate
the titles of Roland Barthes' books, and yet exhibit stupidities of kind
though not of degree of the Kenny G lover in question, particularly in
regard to what is considered "self-evident," the quote that refuses a
narrative to account for it.<<<


You believe the quote was in regard to what is considered "self-evident."

Why? What is it that is self-evident?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: KFLA
Date: 04 Jun 2000 08:18:57 -0700

Good news for So. Californians?

http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla/



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From: "Truyens" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re:listen
Date: 04 Jun 2000 17:15:09 +0200

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Again some great music to check out.  On the dave Brubeck tribute CD the =
opening track by Dacid Slusser.Such unabashed use of every trick plus =
one of the firmest guitar solo's this side of the 70's.
For all of you who still have ears;)

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Again some great music to check =
out.  On the=20
dave Brubeck tribute CD the opening track by Dacid Slusser.Such =
unabashed use of=20
every trick plus one of the firmest guitar solo's this side of the=20
70's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For all of you who still have=20
ears;)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 15:37:36 GMT




>From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>
>We've had this argument several times before, but I still wonder at the
>insistence on the suspension of judgment with regards to certain human
>activities like music (or art in general) but not others. I take it the
>same folk walk into voting booths and randomly pull levers, pick lovers
>arbitrarily from a crowd and stick with them no matter what and
>uncomplainingly tolerate crappily made shoes two sizes too small. Humans
>are judgmental beings, human actions are open for judgment. Now, there's
>certainly a difference between making one's pronouncements with near
>religious certainty and simply offering them as one's (hopefully
>well-grounded) opinions but, he says judgmentally, some humans are
>jerks.


Fair question Brian.  But I think even the most strident aestheticist would
argue that making "decisions" about matters as diverse as voting or choosing
lovers and friends are in no way on the same ontological level as making
"judgments" about art, which is not to say that such critical judgments are
more important than the former.  In fact, I'd say the opposite.  Political
decisions in a polling booth have a lot more to do with issues of
responsibility while decisions about friends and lovers are very often even
more arbitrary or mysterious than choices about music; in fact they often
involve no judgment at all.  The fact that people make judgments certainly
belongs to the category of "is's" (plural), but when we make judgments,
we're invoking the category of "oughts," which suggests an alternative way
of being or seeing.  We have some intuition or thought about what's good and
we wish that a particular art object comported more with this quality we
expect.

But of course these aren't the days of Mozart and Beethoven.  We have a
plurality of musical forms surrounding us and an equally diverse set of
approaches.  The media are highly varied in terms of categories:  rock,
jazz, electronic, experimental, ethnic and the various hybrids and
departures.  What we need is a better vocabulary to deal with all these
approaches, without resorting glib dismissals of categories or
specificities--"ambient is crap," "minimalism is wallpaper" etc.--or blind
elations.  That's why I would encourage a "post-judgmental" critical
standpoint where one does something like "descriptive analytics" of what
goes on in a musical work.  (It would take some time to spell out what this
would look like).  What would then be interesting in terms of blurbs by a
lister would be a self-inquiry as to the personal history and experience
that permits the particular "cathectation" with a work or what doesn't
permit it in a different instance and why.  This would be a more
"phenomenological" approach in the latter case rather than a prototypical
aesthetic approach, which might help to pull us out of some of our
ingrained, habituated reactions.

Sorry for the length here, but there are no sound-bites or aphorisms for
this kind of stuff.

>
>Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
>painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
>removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.

It's a bit unfortunate to invoke Ingres and the category of the "beautiful"
once again, but since it's been done, let me invert it:  "A poorly made shoe
with a compelling history in terms of where it's been and who it has
accompanied is just as moving as a well-executed masterpiece of painting
that lives on only as an abstract manifestation of the "good."  Ingres gives
away his aestheticism in not allowing, by implication, the well-made shoe to
at least equal the well-made painting.

And now Jean-Francois Lyotard in paraphrase:
"On the wall of an ancient cave, a man draws a figure that appears to
resemble a real object.  Is it language or is it art?  It is neither.  The
distinction shall come later."
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 11:44:36 -0400

> Brian wrote:
>
> Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
> painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
> removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.
>
> imho, of course.
>
> Brian Olewnick
>
Samuel wrote:
> well spoken, and i agree to a certain extent.
> but i think the quality of a shoe is comparible somewhat to the
> quality of a
> recording. what i'm addressing, i think, is taste.  you can
> certainly judge
> on matters of taste, but like you say, when it comes to taste it
> has to be
> more of an opinion. the shoemaker has two jobs. making the shoe
> comfortable
> and have it last a long time.  but the shoemaker also has to take fashion
> into consideration.  as much as it's taboo to compare art to fashion, the
> fashion of a shoe, and richness of musical or artistic ideas, is
> a matter of
> taste.
> some could say that minimalism is, in Philip Glass's case, just a
> bunch of
> well orchestrated arpeggios, or, in Arvo Part's case, a bunch of pretty
> repetetive choir music travelling in fifths. "hey, what the hell! Indian
> classical music doesn't even modulate?  it must be less complex than OUR
> music." sorry, i don't mean to drive the point so hard.
> i guess i should stress that i don't mean people should suspend ALL
> judgement. i just think that when people have a negative judgement they
> perhaps could try to be less spiteful about it.  true, Kenny G and N'Sync
> are quite commercialized.  but for the most part i don't really
> think they
> are offending anyone's morality, so go ahead and dislike it, but
> don't state
> objectively how their music is just bad according to universal laws.
>   respectfully,
>    -Samuel
> PS
> what does imho mean? i forgot.
"in my humble opinion"

The aspect of taste doesn't come without some education.  Some people are
"born" with taste, but those are also the kind that accept mozart and reject
schoenberg  (or vice versa, for that matter).  Word-less music doesn't speak
directly to the heart (or the gutter) as does a song or a poem, and you need
some knowledge of (or a feeling for) compositional principles and machinery
to help "understand" better.   Eventually, when you're riding your
super-educated high, you may make silly comparisons of how Milton Babbitt's
stuff is just as expressive as Beethoven's.

The "problem" with Kenny G and N'sync is that they do not appeal to our
taste -- No, rather they appeal to our sense of decadence, and the worst
sort, the escapist sort. The harmonic scheme is simple and endlessly
repeated, and the beat is always there to comfort you, "I'll be there at the
next measure".  The way I understand it, harmony and rhythm are only the
basic ingredients, with which you may have to DO something. In Kenny G,
nothing ever happens, it's an endless of expanse of kitsch. That sounds
pretty offensive to me.

If music continues in the Kenny G or N'Sync sort of braindead idiocy, then
we're bound to have less and less musicians that think, and a tiny audience
of people that can truly listen.

(Actually, we've already reached that point. Now what.)


Regad's,

Ljova


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 15:50:01 GMT




>From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
>
> >>>particularly in
>regard to what is considered "self-evident," the quote that refuses a
>narrative to account for it.<<<
>
>
>You believe the quote was in regard to what is considered "self-evident."
>
>Why? What is it that is self-evident?


It's an old political/aesthetic strategy, I believe--the silent narrative of
juxtaposition--your quote vis-a-vis Samuel's comment in order to render it
absurd without saying so.  Am I wrong again, Mr. SchwitterZ?
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Joe Gallivan/Rainforest Project at the Knit TONITE
Date: 04 Jun 2000 11:53:30 -0400

>If anybody goes to this I'd love to hear about it.....


    I'll start by saying what a thrill it was to finally get to
hear Messrs Dean, Gallivan and Austin play, after 25 years of
listening to their recordings(The Gallivan/Austin LP's on Spitball
Records being tops on my list of needed re-issues).
    The concert was essentially one piece of music, beginning
with some dancing/vocalizing in the Hawaiian tradition(pardon my
cultural ignorance if I'm off base here), against an
electronic(taped?) background of Rainforest sounds, by one of the 2
Hawaiian women of the group. she moved to a single drum and then was
joined by Gallivan and Mattos. When the horns gradually joined in, a
theme developed. Each of the horn players then were announced by the
other Hawaiian woman(whose function was as narrator)  and each would
play unaccompanied with the rest of the group eventually joining in
for sections of free blowing. The all-to-short concert ended as it
began with more of the traditional Hawaiian vocalizations.
    All-in-all a good show, but I was a bit disappointed that the
rest of the audience was apparently sated by the 40 minute
performance, and didn't seem to want an encore.

Rich

BTW....has anyone else noticed an increasing tendency for the staff,
hangers-on and even the musicians at the knit, to tromp around on the
balcony, slam doors, network and bullshit, DURING the performances?
One would think that the people who play and present music that
requires attentive listening to be a bit more respectful.....




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 12:07:50 -0400

Bill Ashline, ladies and gentlemen, Bill Ashline:
> But of course these aren't the days of Mozart and Beethoven.  We have a
> plurality of musical forms surrounding us and an equally diverse set of
> approaches.  The media are highly varied in terms of categories:  rock,
> jazz, electronic, experimental, ethnic and the various hybrids and
> departures.  What we need is a better vocabulary to deal with all these
> approaches, without resorting glib dismissals of categories or
> specificities--"ambient is crap," "minimalism is wallpaper"
> etc.--or blind
> elations.  That's why I would encourage a "post-judgmental" critical
> standpoint where one does something like "descriptive analytics" of what
> goes on in a musical work.  (It would take some time to spell out
> what this
> would look like).  What would then be interesting in terms of blurbs by a
> lister would be a self-inquiry as to the personal history and experience
> that permits the particular "cathectation" with a work or what doesn't
> permit it in a different instance and why.  This would be a more
> "phenomenological" approach in the latter case rather than a prototypical
> aesthetic approach, which might help to pull us out of some of our
> ingrained, habituated reactions.

"Man desires a world where good and evil can be clearly distinguished, for
he has an innate and irrepressible desire to judge before he understands.
Religions and ideologies are founded on this desire. They can cope with the
novel only by translating its language of relativity and ambiguity into
their own apodictic and dogmatic discourse. They require that someone be
right: either Anna Karenina is the victim of a narrow-minded tyrant, or
Karenin is the victim of an immoral woman; either K. is an innocent man
crushed by an unjust Court, or the Court represents divine justice and K. is
guilty.
This "either-or" encapsulates an inability to tolerate the essential
relativity of things human, an inability to look squarely at the absence of
the Supreme Judge. This inability makes the novel's wisdom (the wisdom of
uncertainty) hard to accept and understand." (This passage, and the last
sentence in particular, refers to the plot of Cervantes' "Don Quixote".  But
I think it may also refer to anything that is novel  (i.e. new).)

and later,

"The Modern Era has nurtured a dream in which mankind, divided into its
separate civilizations, would someday come together in uity and everlasting
peace. Today, the history of the planet has finally become one indivisible
whole, but it is war, ambulant and everlasting war, that embodies and
guarantees this long-desired unity of mankind. Unity of mankind means: No
escape for anyone anywhere."

            -Milan Kundera, "The Depreciated Legacy of Cervantes" (an essay in "The
Art of the Novel")


Regad's,

Ljova


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 10:14:48 -0700

>>>It's an old political/aesthetic strategy, I believe--the silent narrative
of
juxtaposition--your quote vis-a-vis Samuel's comment in order to render it
absurd without saying so.  Am I wrong again, Mr. SchwitterZ?<<<


Whether or not it renders the comment absurd depends on the reader's
presuppositions. Samuel may very well think the quote is an example of his
point. I put it out there more as a litmus test for readers' positions than
as a self-evident assertion. But, hell, I am making progress. I've gone from
'exhibiting stupidities' to the 'political/aesthetic strategy' of 'the
silent narrative of juxtaposition.' More personal growth than on most wasted
Sundays.

If anyone is interested, I have some collages on some land in Arizona for
sale at my website.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 10:20:22 -0700

>>>so go ahead and dislike it, but don't state
objectively how their music is just bad according to universal laws.
  respectfully,
   -Samuel<<<


In what category does this assertion fall?

Is it an objective statement based on universal laws, or a matter of
taste/preference?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 13:34:28 -0400

Bill Ashline wrote:

> Fair question Brian.  But I think even the most strident aestheticist would
> argue that making "decisions" about matters as diverse as voting or choosing
> lovers and friends are in no way on the same ontological level as making
> "judgments" about art,

No strident aestheticist I, but I'm not so sure about that. I'm a bit
out of my league in so far as the particulars, but I'd imagine someone
like Edward O. Wilson, among others, might take a different point of
view.

> We have some intuition or thought about what's good and
> we wish that a particular art object comported more with this quality we
> expect.

But does that intuition have a more purely biological or societal basis?
I don't know (though I have my prejudicial leanings), just asking.

> What we need is a better vocabulary to deal with all these
> approaches, without resorting glib dismissals of categories or
> specificities--"ambient is crap," "minimalism is wallpaper" etc.--or blind
> elations.  That's why I would encourage a "post-judgmental" critical
> standpoint where one does something like "descriptive analytics" of what
> goes on in a musical work.  (It would take some time to spell out what this
> would look like).  What would then be interesting in terms of blurbs by a
> lister would be a self-inquiry as to the personal history and experience
> that permits the particular "cathectation" with a work or what doesn't
> permit it in a different instance and why.  This would be a more
> "phenomenological" approach in the latter case rather than a prototypical
> aesthetic approach, which might help to pull us out of some of our
> ingrained, habituated reactions.

I think that's a wonderful (if, in practice, unlikely) set of standards
to aspire to but, as complex and deep as those formulations are, I
wonder if the heart of the matter doesn't lie even deeper, down amongst
the genes.
>
> Sorry for the length here, but there are no sound-bites or aphorisms for
> this kind of stuff.

That's certainly the truth; no apologies needed.

> It's a bit unfortunate to invoke Ingres

Hey, it's _never_ unfortunate to invoke the great Ingres! ;-) Painters
today (eg, Close, Hockney, Freud) are still catching up to him!

> and the category of the "beautiful"
> once again, but since it's been done, let me invert it:  "A poorly made shoe
> with a compelling history in terms of where it's been and who it has
> accompanied is just as moving as a well-executed masterpiece of painting
> that lives on only as an abstract manifestation of the "good."  Ingres gives
> away his aestheticism in not allowing, by implication, the well-made shoe to
> at least equal the well-made painting.

You might be right about ol' JAD Ingres' opinion (though considering his
time and culture, it might be unreasonable to expect him to think
otherwise; perhaps today he'd reconsider) and I think your inversion is
right to the point, ie an assertion that "This poorly made shoe is more
moving than that fine painting" may only require further and deeper
explication to move it from the area of "preposterous sounding
statement" to something to seriously consider, with deeper still
probing...
>
> And now Jean-Francois Lyotard in paraphrase:
> "On the wall of an ancient cave, a man draws a figure that appears to
> resemble a real object.  Is it language or is it art?  It is neither.  The
> distinction shall come later."

Indeed. I'm just not so sure that the distinction, for all it may be
bandied about, is still really very clear or, in fact, can ever be.

Brian Olewnick

NP: John Fahey, The Dance of Death and other Plantation Favorites

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 12:51:55 -0400

On Sun, Jun 04, 2000 at 11:44:36AM -0400, Ljova wrote:
> Eventually, when you're riding your
> super-educated high, you may make silly comparisons of how Milton Babbitt's
> stuff is just as expressive as Beethoven's.

"silly"?

> The "problem" with Kenny G and N'sync is that they do not appeal to our
> taste -- No, rather they appeal to our sense of decadence, and the worst
> sort, the escapist sort. The harmonic scheme is simple and endlessly
> repeated, and the beat is always there to comfort you, "I'll be there at the
> next measure".

Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among
the only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor, and
that most musics of the world that have a pulse at all involve some sort
of rhythmic cycle, you've just called all music except for a tiny corner
of that which fits into those Western categories "escapist" and "decadent".

Can anyone, other than someone who has buried himself head-first into
academic and supposed high culture musics, conceivably believe that?

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 14:19:44 CDT


Alas I am only 18 and am perhaps a wee bit over my head among the
vocabularies of "rabid twenty-something" intellect.


<Ljova wrote:
<  "Today, the history of the planet has finally become one
<indivisible
<whole, but it is war, ambulant and everlasting war, that embodies and
<guarantees this long-desired unity of mankind. Unity of mankind
<means: No escape for anyone anywhere."
<-Milan Kundera, "The Depreciated Legacy of Cervantes"
and
<If music continues in the Kenny G or N'Sync sort of braindead idiocy, <then
we're bound to have less and less musicians that think, and a
<tiny audience of people that can truly listen.


     Then we, the audiences who can still listen, and some of us, the
musicians who can still think, will have to accept our losing end of this
war. We must perish among the power chords and cute boys with synchronized
dances. but kitsch has it's charm...;)
        -Samuel







________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #954
Date: 04 Jun 2000 15:21:14 EDT

In a message dated 6/4/00 10:48:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among
 the only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor, and
 that most musics of the world that have a pulse at all involve some sort
 of rhythmic cycle, you've just called all music except for a tiny corner
 of that which fits into those Western categories "escapist" and "decadent".

 Can anyone, other than someone who has buried himself head-first into
 academic and supposed high culture musics, conceivably believe that?
  >>

Music in any form can represent innumerable emotions, experiences, memories,
etc. to different people, and can obviously contain varying degrees of
musical "prowess."
In other words, musical theory encompasses a broad spectrum of ideas and
might play a smaller role in commercial musics. However, the validity and/or
direct meaning ensconced within a song depends solely on the listener.  The
truth and passion required to create real "art" also fluctuates according to
different cultures, and ultimately contains no absolutes.
Therefore, arguing on an artist's integrity, validity, or musicianship is
quite absurd, because it is wholly subjective.  i realize this could be
restating former posts.....

ben    (new to list)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #954
Date: 04 Jun 2000 12:43:11 -0700

>>>However, the validity and/or
direct meaning ensconced within a song depends solely on the listener.  The
truth and passion required to create real "art" also fluctuates according to
different cultures, and ultimately contains no absolutes.

Therefore, arguing on an artist's integrity, validity, or musicianship is
quite absurd, because it is wholly subjective

ben    (new to list)<<<
______________________________________________

Is your position based on absolutes or is it subjective?

It seems to me that people are betraying their position by stating it.

Although universal consensus regarding ANYthing will never happen, to say
that there are not variations in integrity, validity, or musicianship...and
that meaningful discussion and argumentation about aesthetic quality is
invalid is a stretch from my way of thinking. The variations are most
obvious at the extremes...say comparing a 4 year old picking up a sax to
John Coltrane. While they get more difficult to define and agree upon as you
move up the scale, variations in quality seem evident. Doesn't seem that
different than most topics worth discussing. If you eliminate all topics
involving subjectivity and absurdity from meaningful discourse we'll have no
mouths and we must scream.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation
Date: 04 Jun 2000 16:07:31 -0400





> -----Original Message-----

>      Then we, the audiences who can still listen, and some of us, the
> musicians who can still think, will have to accept our losing end of this
> war. We must perish among the power chords and cute boys with
> synchronized
> dances. but kitsch has it's charm...;)
>         -Samuel

Nay, friend. :)

Decadence has charm, beer, wine, vodka, ice cream, nudity (all decadent),
but kitsch? Not for me.

-L

--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #954
Date: 04 Jun 2000 16:15:49 -0400


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of s~Z
> Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 3:43 PM
> To: Zornithology List
> Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #954
>
>
> >>>However, the validity and/or
> direct meaning ensconced within a song depends solely on the
> listener.  The
> truth and passion required to create real "art" also fluctuates
> according to
> different cultures, and ultimately contains no absolutes.
>
> Therefore, arguing on an artist's integrity, validity, or musicianship is
> quite absurd, because it is wholly subjective
>
> ben    (new to list)<<<
> ______________________________________________
>
> Is your position based on absolutes or is it subjective?
>
> It seems to me that people are betraying their position by stating it.
>
> Although universal consensus regarding ANYthing will never happen, to say
> that there are not variations in integrity, validity, or
> musicianship...and
> that meaningful discussion and argumentation about aesthetic quality is
> invalid is a stretch from my way of thinking. The variations are most
> obvious at the extremes...say comparing a 4 year old picking up a sax to
> John Coltrane. While they get more difficult to define and agree
> upon as you
> move up the scale, variations in quality seem evident. Doesn't seem that
> different than most topics worth discussing. If you eliminate all topics
> involving subjectivity and absurdity from meaningful discourse
> we'll have no
> mouths and we must scream.

Very well put!   I realize that we live in a polyglot age, with lots of
languages, cultures, musics, and so forth, all converging somewhere in the
collective brain.  But I see no need for the objectivist or the
all-welcoming approach. There's no use for being spiteful, only in that it
makes life entertaining.

I have seen it many times on mailing lists -- there are those that state
their honest opinions, and then there are others who just try to make things
"allright", return the conversation to its proper balance, with "the"
question still hanging, forever undecided.   But if we do not voice our
opinions (and especially negative opinions), then there is nothing to
balance, and whatever flowery conversation is left will surely be one-sided.

-L


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffrey Zima <[e-mail]>
Subject: touring
Date: 04 Jun 2000 13:51:27 -0700

can anyone help me out with regard to a tour schedule? zorn was just
here in oakland with masada and i was out of town.....anyone direct me
to a site or know what he's doing this summer?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation once more
Date: 05 Jun 2000 01:13:21 +0200

Samuel wrote:
> perhaps could try to be less spiteful about it.  true, Kenny G and N'Sync
> are quite commercialized.  but for the most part i don't really think they
> are offending anyone's morality, so go ahead and dislike it, but don't
state
> objectively how their music is just bad according to universal laws.

What does universality and laws have to do with it? It may be bad for some
peculiar, local reason. It does not make it better then music that is bad
for an universal reason.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation
Date: 05 Jun 2000 01:08:43 +0200

Brian Olewnick wrote:
> Ingres once said, "A well-made shoe is more beautiful than a poorly-made
> painting". I just don't see why what we call "art" is somehow to be
> removed from the same judgments we make about everything else.

Well, I do think that one of the greatest challanges both for artists and
the people who just take the art is just to not think about art in different
categories then the rest of life. And I do beleive that it has to do withy
one of the greatest lies present in our culture - namely, that art serves as
a mean for a rest, that it's something 'unessencial', just a 'hobby' or
whatever. Well, it is not; we just choose what kind of art we do in our
lives, and in most cases it is not very inspiring.
BTW, it's great to be back here. BTWII, if anybody posted me any personal
post to [e-mail] i won't be able to reply quikcly - so you 'd
better send me a copy to the new adress( [e-mail]).
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeremy Isaac Mc Cormick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #952
Date: 05 Jun 2000 05:49:38 -0400

Sex mob the song is huge in europe.  I hear it on every corner.  The song
that is.

jqh


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: five nights of new music in Boston
Date: 05 Jun 2000 07:22:54 -0400

for those around the Boston area, this could be of interest:
SICPP 2000! --
Five nights of explosive new music for piano and percussion at New England
Conservatory

Monday, June 12 - Williams Hall
Emanuele Arciuli solo piano:  New Music from Italy and America
    Including music by John Adams, George Crumb, and Frederic Rzewski

Tuesday, June 13 - Brown Hall
Stephen Drury, Shannon Wettstein, Thomas Guldborg, Aiyun Huang, Jennifer=
 Choi=20
    Music by John Zorn and Iannis Xenakis
=20
Wednesday, June 14 - Brown Hall
Robyn Schulkowsky: works for percussion and ensemble by John Cage=20
=20
Thursday, June 15 - Williams Hall
Yukiko Takagi and Stephen Drury
    Music by Cage and Satie, including Cage's arrangement of Socrate for 2=
 pianos

Friday, June 16 - Brown Hall
John Mark Harris and Aiyun Huang
Music with Electronics: Stockhausen Kontakte; Nono =85sofferte onde serene=
=85


New England Conservatory
290 Huntington Ave, Boston, MA

All concerts are free

for more info, go to http://www.stephendrury.com

--steve

http://www.stephendrury.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation (was re: webern box)
Date: 05 Jun 2000 09:03:04 EDT

In a message dated 6/3/00 9:56:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I would suggest that we do suspend critical judgment or at least
interrogate
 it vigorously because if the best we can do when we encounter a new CD is
 repeat the same old tired critical tropes that have been hanging around
 since the days of German Romanticism, than we haven't learned a thing about
 our music or why we cathect with it so regularly. >>


Quite right.

Your other points were as well.

-matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Artists and self-estimation Act III
Date: 05 Jun 2000 13:25:21 GMT

Joseph Zitt wrote:

>Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among the
>only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor, and that
>most musics of the world that have a pulse at all involve some sort of
>rhythmic cycle, you've just called all music except for a tiny corner of
>that which fits into those Western categories "escapist" and "decadent".
>Can anyone, other than someone who has buried himself head-first into
>academic and supposed high culture musics, conceivably believe that? <

Well stated Joseph.  I wholeheartedly agree.

Brian Olewnick wrote:

>No strident aestheticist I, but I'm not so sure about that. I'm a bit out
>of my league in so far as the particulars, but I'd imagine someone like
>Edward O. Wilson, among others, might take a different point of view.
><<<>You might be right about ol' JAD Ingres' opinion (though considering
>his time and culture, it might be unreasonable to expect him to think
>otherwise; perhaps today he'd reconsider)<


I should have perhaps pointed out that the issue of "judgment" with regard
to art has a particular history and resonance, which, though reducible in
some way to common sense, doesnÆt operate in quite the same commonsensical
manner as banal everyday judgments about politics or shopping.  My objection
is with a kind of practice with regard to art that always privileges a
determination of "quality" rather than explication or elaboration or that
fails to take into account the diversity of connections or disconnections.
Wilson was a great New York intellectual and one who was certainly a
"product of his time."  Ingres certainly was a product of his time, as was
Colombus, as are all of us.  The objective though is to become "untimely,"
which is what Zorn does in his best moments, those moments where he affirms
the pariahs and the accursed of art, all the while operating within the
expected idioms of precision and sophistication that one expects from an
avant-garde composer.  For me, his peaks are Naked City and Painkiller
rather than Masada, a configuration with which IÆve never really cathected
in the same way.  (And I havenÆt because I donÆt connect in the same way
anymore with that sort of avant-garde ensemble or with the cultural impetus
for the group, i.e. a lack of direct experience with ZornÆs diasporic
existence).  ItÆs in the former two configurations that I find his work most
affirmative as well as extreme.

>But does that intuition have a more purely biological or societal basis?
><<<>I think that's a wonderful (if, in practice, unlikely) set of standards
>to aspire to but, as complex and deep as those formulations are, I wonder
>if the heart of the matter doesn't lie even deeper, down amongst the
>genes.<

IÆd say that intuition is cultural rather than natural; I distrust
explanations that resort to the latter.  I think you have a good point above
regarding, implicitly, the body, since our reactions to music are inscribed
there by culture.  But once again, I would distrust the biological
explanation.  ItÆs a long story that I wonÆt get into right now.

>I think your inversion is right to the point, ie an assertion that "This
>poorly made shoe is more moving than that fine painting" may only require
>further and deeper explication to move it from the area of "preposterous
>sounding statement" to something to seriously consider, with deeper still
>probing... <

It all has to do with "auras" and their production/manufacture.  "Auras" can
attend to just about anything we want them to, and our culture has
conditioned us to attach them to things like art, fame, etc.  In Kandy, Sri
Lanka, one of BuddhaÆs teeth, having apparently been rescued from his
funeral pyre, lives out a notorious existence housed in a series of gold
caskets and reserved for only a select few to observe.  This is a culture in
which the aura of a Rembrandt or Beethoven will never even approach the aura
of a tooth.  And IÆm sure countless other examples can be dredged up.

Mr. SchwitterZ wrote:

>Whether or not it renders the comment absurd depends on the reader's
>presuppositions. Samuel may very well think the quote is an example of his
>point. I put it out there more as a litmus test for readers' positions than
>as a self-evident assertion. But, hell, I am making progress. I've gone
>from 'exhibiting stupidities' to the 'political/aesthetic strategy' of 'the
>silent narrative of juxtaposition.' More personal growth than on most
>wasted Sundays. <

Indeed.  But itÆs all plausible deniability.  You didnÆt claim Samuel to be
stupid.  And I never said that you were.

Ljova wrote:

>Bill Ashline, ladies and gentlemen, Bill Ashline: <

Thanks for the introduction.

Ljova quoted:

"Man desires a world where good and evil can be clearly distinguished, for
he has an innate and irrepressible desire to judge before he understands.
Religions and ideologies are founded on this desireà.This "either-or"
encapsulates an inability to tolerate the essential relativity of things
human, an inability to look squarely at the absence of the Supreme Judge."

Nice quotes.  Drives home what I was trying to say very well, despite all
the humanistic rhetoric.














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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 05 Jun 2000 09:22:28 -0700


On Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:40:09 CDT  "samuel yrui" wrote:
>
> Bill said:
>   "Whether we like something or not, doesn't matter.  "Likes" are
>   arbitrary and artists aren't that sneaky, primarily because they're
>   not that interested in duping audiences any more than in pleasing
>   them."
>
>
> Dearest Bill,
>   In your message you communicated something successfully and eloquently
> that I have trying to get across to people for a long time.  I agree in the
> subjectiveness of likes and dislikes especially with something as abstract
> as music.  Suspending some critical judgement, or at least not taking it so
> seriously could do some people a lot of good.  Musicians/artists should be
> respected for the fact that they tried.

For you musicians/artists seem to be all in the same box: you are one or
you are not one. Because the number of artists that can reach us has increased
dramatically in the past few decades, we (the consummers) are faced with a
tough choice: how to filter the superflous and derivative from the true
original and genuine stuff? Maybe you have an answer, but I don't.

This raises the question of who is more qualified to judge music: a mediocre
artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having done his
homework)? Is claiming that you are an artist enough for us (listeners) to
turn off our critical judgement?

If every artist was of the stature of Picasso or Cage, I would have never
opened my mouth.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daryl Loomis <[e-mail]>
Subject:  Verbatim
Date: 05 Jun 2000 10:54:35 -0700

Has anyone heard Bob Ostertag's Verbatim?  If so, any thoughts?  The line-up is excellent:  Mark Dresser (double-bass), Gerry Hemmingway (percussion), Phil Minton (voice) & Ostertag (samples, electronics).  I've only heard it once now...I just got it, and find it really interesting, but I don't think I quite understand.

Regards

Daryl Loomis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 05 Jun 2000 13:54:41 EDT

In a message dated 6/5/00 12:39:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< For you musicians/artists seem to be all in the same box: you are one or
 you are not one. Because the number of artists that can reach us has
increased
 dramatically in the past few decades, we (the consummers) are faced with a
 tough choice: how to filter the superflous and derivative from the true
 original and genuine stuff? Maybe you have an answer, but I don't. >>

Hello Partrice,

How do you determine what is superflous and derivative?   Not necessarily of
the present but even perhaps of merely 30 years ago.  Or if you prefer, of
50, 100, or 300 years ago.  What do those words mean to you with respect to
music?   And conversely, what does original and genuine mean with respect to
music?  What is your aesthetic criteria for evaluation?

I'd like to communicate with you and others about these concepts but I need
to understand your POV  with respect to these terms and not just from a
superficial orientation that is generated by the flux of comparitive
analysis;  ie  :  Kenny G is superflous and Louis Armstrong is not.
etcetera ad infinitum

I am aware that several of the writers and many of the readers here are
informed by modern philosophical and psychological backgrounds.    Methods of
evaluation really haven't been  defined using these referance points.   I
hope someone can define their musical aesthetic from a post modern vantage.

I've not come across a single writer here who uses musical analysis as a way
of expressing, from an objective musical analytic POV, the concepts that are
employed and developed upon by a specific composer in even one specific work.
 An I don't mean to imply that that is necessary or the better way to churn
out thoughts.  Granted , musical anaysis , cut and dry objective evaluation,
is not poetic but it does offer a sense of reason which can be compared and
contrasted with other works using a specific unified vocabulary.   For
instance, understanding and expressing likes and dislikes using vocabulary
that illuminates the  inner workings of the music as in:  intervals that are
emphasized in one Masada composition in contrast to another.  Or perhaps,
what makes so and so's counterpoint(in a string quartet, or jazz quartet)
original and unique in contrast to Mr. Doodycum's superflous and derivitive,
though perhaps sonically alluring, flavor of the week.


Regards,
Bruce

www.eisenbeil.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: label Ampersand?
Date: 05 Jun 2000 10:55:53 -0700


    Does anybody know who is behind the label Ampersand which just started
with three reissues of Cramps records (including Cage's CHEAP IMITATION)?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: label Ampersand?
Date: 05 Jun 2000 14:27:41 -0400

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>         Does anybody know who is behind the label Ampersand which just started
> with three reissues of Cramps records (including Cage's CHEAP IMITATION)?

Patrice,

What???!!!!  The Cramps covered Cage?

Which albums?  Presumably "Songs the Lord Taught Us" (one of Alex
Chilton's finest moments, imho), the first one (with "Human Fly" I can
never remember the title)  and what?

Aaah.....I will never forget the night I was introduced to The Cramps.
I kept asking my friend to play the albums over and over and over again.

--Mike

--
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer,  Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: label Ampersand?
Date: 05 Jun 2000 11:37:09 -0700 (PDT)

Mike Chamberlain, demi-God and Icon sez:
>> Does anybody know who is behind the label Ampersand which just started
>> with three reissues of Cramps records (including Cage's CHEAP IMITATION)?

>What???!!!!  The Cramps covered Cage?

    Sadly no. Patrice is referring to the
    record label Cramps, which did put
    out that Cage tribute compilation
    that included Joey Ramone singing
    acapella. darn fun.

    rizzi

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Bach/Caine
Date: 05 Jun 2000 15:27:07 EDT

Anyone catch Uri Caine's Bach Goldgerb Variation Project this past weekend at the Jazz Standard??

Do tell!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation
Date: 05 Jun 2000 13:37:47 -0600

Bruce wrote:
>what does original and genuine mean with
>respect to
>music?  What is your aesthetic criteria for evaluation?
>I hope someone can define their musical aesthetic from a post modern
>vantage.

I'm pretty ignorant about the concepts behind post-modernist thought, but
aren't we engaging in post-modernist behavior when we say - as I think many
have said over the course of this discussion - that quality is really judged
by the unique reaction of the individual listener.  Maybe I'm way off the
mark.

>understanding and expressing likes and dislikes using
>vocabulary
>that illuminates the  inner workings of the music as in:  intervals that
>are
>emphasized in one Masada composition in contrast to another.  Or
>perhaps,
>what makes so and so's counterpoint(in a string quartet, or jazz
>quartet)
>original and unique.

I'm going to snip Joseph Zitt's comment here

>>Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among
>>the only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor...

This is just the problem.  We don't have a set of terminology for some of
the musics which are now emerging and we have yet to discover a working
terminology for the musics of many of the world's cultures. Talking about
intervals and counterpoint is hardly helpful in a discussion of most musics.


We can write gamelan music or talk about the music in africa or even notate
that music, but the scope of understanding that our system of notation and
our cherished western music vocabulary offers does not begin to help us
understand how the music is heard by the people who make it...the people who
understand that musical language.

I don't think that disecting the music through webs of learned musical
concepts is going to help separate the superflous from the genuine, simply
because the concepts themselves are inadiquate descriptives.

Take LMC or Taku Sugimoto.  I don't think you could really say that they're
moving into any really new areas of counterpoint but yet some people
consider their music to be genuine.  What sorts of terms would you use to
talk about Kevin Drumm's music? ..

I do think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's the
most effective tool to separate artistic success from failure.

Matt Wirzbicki




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bach/Caine
Date: 05 Jun 2000 15:54:04 -0400

Hello XRedbirdxx,

Monday, June 05, 2000, you wrote to me:

Xac> Anyone catch Uri Caine's Bach Goldgerb Variation Project this
Xac> past weekend at the Jazz Standard??

I saw them yesterday. The ensemble includes almost the same people as
Mahler's project: Uri Caine - piano, Greg Tardy - clarinet and tenor
sax, Ralph Alessi - trumpet, Diane Monroe - violin, Barbara Walker -
vocals, DJ Olive - turntables, Drew Gress - bass, Ralph Peterson -
drums and two poets.

Caine did the same thing with Bach as with other composers before. He
played solo a little, arranged Bach for piano, violin, double bass and
trumpet in a very good Bachish way and added lots of R&B, jazz and
some klezmer music. Excellent arrangement and piano playing as usual.
Diane Monroe, Barbara Walker, Drew Gress and Ralph Peterson were great
too. Others were quit good but not so interesting.

The only bad thing was the worst acoustics in the city of Jazz
Standard. It was not unexpected though.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 05 Jun 2000 12:58:35 -0700


On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 13:54:41 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> << For you musicians/artists seem to be all in the same box: you are one or
>  you are not one. Because the number of artists that can reach us has
> increased
>  dramatically in the past few decades, we (the consummers) are faced with a
>  tough choice: how to filter the superflous and derivative from the true
>  original and genuine stuff? Maybe you have an answer, but I don't. >>
>
> How do you determine what is superflous and derivative?   Not necessarily of
> the present but even perhaps of merely 30 years ago.  Or if you prefer, of
> 50, 100, or 300 years ago.  What do those words mean to you with respect to
> music?   And conversely, what does original and genuine mean with respect to
> music?  What is your aesthetic criteria for evaluation?

I am not talking about absolute judgements at all!

My point was that people should not feel intimidated to say what they think
about music. Specialists might have more knowledge, but since they always
have an agenda (getting their paycheck, complying to the latest intellectual
fad, etc), a non-specialist who has escaped brainwash has something to
say that can be as relevant.

Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged specialists
(Boulez, Adorno, etc). And what? How does what these "enlighted" intellectuals
once wrote stand now? How many PhDs do we need to be slightly less wrong that
these specialists?

Yes, there are some interesting ideas that they expressed, but this is hidden
under a pile of dogmatism and fadish attitude.

At least critic is totally harmless (not like political theories...).

> I am aware that several of the writers and many of the readers here are
> informed by modern philosophical and psychological backgrounds.    Methods of
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does it help in any way? I mean, besides creating more confusion and making
the intimidating attitude even worse.

Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new philosophical
babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like to be
impressed)?

I mean, how many fashionable theories will it take to get it right? Are we
getting closer from the ultimate truth with any of these new theories? Or
are we just turning in round and wasting our time?

> evaluation really haven't been  defined using these referance points.   I
> hope someone can define their musical aesthetic from a post modern vantage.

It should be clear by now that there is no known algorithm to decide if music
is good or bad. But a still fairly common approach, pretending reaching
objectivity, consists in using the latest fashion in ready-to-wear philosophy
(or critic theory) to "analyze" and rate a piece of art.

Are you impressed by post modernism? Doesn't it make you feel like when
doctors during Middle Age were using Latin language to hide the vacuousness
of their discourse?

I know, being French, I should not spit in the soup...

> I've not come across a single writer here who uses musical analysis as a way
> of expressing, from an objective musical analytic POV, the concepts that are
> employed and developed upon by a specific composer in even one specific work.
>  An I don't mean to imply that that is necessary or the better way to churn
> out thoughts.  Granted , musical anaysis , cut and dry objective evaluation,
> is not poetic but it does offer a sense of reason which can be compared and
> contrasted with other works using a specific unified vocabulary.   For

Except that critic is still an a-posteriori demarche. Good to explain the
past but fairly useless for dealing with the future (where revolutions are
coming from). Because of that, there are good reasons to be dubious about
the value of critic theory when dealing with new forms of art.

> instance, understanding and expressing likes and dislikes using vocabulary
> that illuminates the  inner workings of the music as in:  intervals that are
> emphasized in one Masada composition in contrast to another.  Or perhaps,
> what makes so and so's counterpoint(in a string quartet, or jazz quartet)
> original and unique in contrast to Mr. Doodycum's superflous and derivitive,
> though perhaps sonically alluring, flavor of the week.

Confronted with the total failure of intellectual approaches to criticism,
I think that nobody should feel ashamed to say what they think without
being intimidated by "specialists" who most of the time have no clue (but
an agenda).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ARTISTS and self examination
Date: 05 Jun 2000 17:55:25 CDT

I think Merzhbow orchestrates his counterpoint beautifully.
            -Samuel



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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #955
Date: 05 Jun 2000 19:30:39 EDT

In a message dated 6/5/00 9:28:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< variations in quality seem evident. >>

According to whom? What is quality? It's not necessarily definable... thats
all i am saying. Of course comparisons between artists will forever occur,
its just that i believe it can be limiting to conversation to include an
ABSOLUTE or DEFINITE truth to something based on opinion. It's faulty
reasoning....

I was probably slightly too cut and dry in my other post....what i would like
to stress with all this babble is not that it is utterly pointless to argue,
but instead that it can be limiting if an idea or opinion does not draw from
a large base of information. Yet i still maintain that validity is a futile
subject.

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Laferty <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Date: 05 Jun 2000 20:53:47 -0400

I've had Verbatim for about a year now, and every time I put the track "Oxblood" on a mix, it inevitably causes beatific consternation among the recipients...I don't have any of the companion albums, but the I love the modified voice sounds as much as John Giorno's and they are much creepier.

Yep it is a creepy album, but holds up.

Matt

Daryl Loomis wrote:

> Has anyone heard Bob Ostertag's Verbatim?  If so, any thoughts?  The line-up is excellent:  Mark Dresser (double-bass), Gerry Hemmingway (percussion), Phil Minton (voice) & Ostertag (samples, electronics).  I've only heard it once now...I just got it, and find it really interesting, but I don't think I quite understand.
>
> Regards
>
> Daryl Loomis
>
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffrey Zima <[e-mail]>
Subject: please!!
Date: 05 Jun 2000 18:12:07 -0700

can somebody help me out with where zorn will be playing and with who -
a schedule?

please!
thx in advance
jeff


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 04:42:18 GMT

Patrice wrote:

<Because the number of artists that can reach us has increased dramatically
in the past few decades, we (the consummers) are faced with a tough choice:
how to filter the superflous and derivative from the true original and
genuine stuff? >

We donÆt really need any filters.  TheyÆre already built in.  ItÆs why we
refuse to hear so much thatÆs valuable.

<This raises the question of who is more qualified to judge music: a
mediocre artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having
done his homework)? >

No one is qualified to judge music.  No one could possibly do enough
homework.

<If every artist was of the stature of Picasso or Cage>

This is it in a nutshell.  A hierarchy of evaluation.  What if we are
surprised to find out that one common DJ in our time has as subtle a
knowledge about music as Mr. Cage?  Would this be blasphemous?

Bruce wrote:

<I've not come across a single writer here who uses musical analysis as a
way of expressing, from an objective musical analytic POV, the concepts that
are employed and developed upon by a specific composer in even one specific
work. >

I agree with this point and am certainly not in the position of doing so
myself, but I think this is but one mode of analysis available to us and not
necessarily an objective one.  The rest of your reflections I think were
highly compelling.

Matt wrote:

<This is just the problem. We don't have a set of terminology for some of
the musics which are now emerging and we have yet to discover a working
terminology for the musics of many of the world's cultures. Talking about
intervals and counterpoint is hardly helpful in a discussion of most
musicsà. I don't think that disecting the music through webs of learned
musical concepts is going to help separate the superflous from the genuine,
simply because the concepts themselves are inadiquate descriptivesà. I do
think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's the most
effective tool to separate artistic success from failure. >

Once again a very compelling set of issues here.  One neednÆt invoke the
term "postmodernism" to note that the issues have become very complex and
that the old categories of great art or bad art or success or failure are
insufficient to deal with many of the experiments taking place.

Patrice wrote:

<My point was that people should not feel intimidated to say what they think
about music. >

IÆm glad you donÆt feel intimidated, Patrice.

<Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged
specialists à.At least critic is totally harmless (not like political
theories...). >

Political theories donÆt kill people; people kill people, which they do
anyway, without theories most of the time.  As far as the timelessness of
aesthetic attitudes and the harmlessness of critics, Hans Haacke had a
different take, when he juxtaposed ExxonÆs support for  the symphony next to
the effects of their investment in S. Africa during apartheid.

<Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new
philosophical babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like
to be impressed)? I mean, how many fashionable theories will it take to get
it right? Are we getting closer from the ultimate truth with any of these
new theories? Or are we just turning in round and wasting our time?>

Are we still believing in "ultimate truth" and "getting it right,"  Patrice?
  Raging, raging against the dimming of the light?  I donÆt see a lot of
theory impressing anyone in the mainstream, and if itÆs "fashionable," I
donÆt see a lot of people wearing it.  But I can see you find it to be both
a lot of work and a waste of time, regardless of what it might contribute to
our discussions here.  Profess ignorance and a lack of interest if you must,
but if you think itÆs impressive to watch you take a vast amount of
significant literature, not bother to read much more than a lick of it, and
plop it all into the garbage can of your psyche, youÆre mistaken.

<Are you impressed by post modernism? Doesn't it make you feel like when
doctors during Middle Age were using Latin language to hide the vacuousness
of their discourse?à Except that critic is still an a-posteriori demarche.
Good to explain the past but fairly useless for dealing with the future
(where revolutions are coming from). Because of that, there are good reasons
to be dubious about the value of critic theory when dealing with new forms
of art. >

WhoÆs being "vacuous?"   All youÆre supplying are feelings and insults
rather than arguments.  This Napoleanic posturing is getting nowhere.  Which
criticism do you read makes you claim that itÆs only useful for dealing with
the past?  In logic, we call this a "straw man" argument:  itÆs an
"aposteriori demarche," (the straw man) and therefore "useless for dealing
with the future" (the slippery slope emerging from the straw man).

<Confronted with the total failure of intellectual approaches to criticism,
I think that nobody should feel ashamed to say what they think without being
intimidated by "specialists" who most of the time have no clue (but an
agenda).>

Agreed.  No one should feel intimidated.  Not even artists and musicians who
find out their works are "failures."  They should continue to go on
producing as before without any concern about offending our categories of
judgment.  Once again, we "clueless" specialists who espouse yet more
"failures" and "fashions" of "intellectual approaches to criticism" as a
secret agenda to subvert the common sense that we all love and admire are to
be refused in advance no matter the persuasiveness of our appeals.

I applaud the hyperbole and the bravura, Patrice.  Now letÆs get back to the
music so that we can adjudicate the good and the bad once again.













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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Date: 06 Jun 2000 14:44:18 +1000

> I've had Verbatim for about a year now, and every time I put the track
"Oxblood" on a > mix, it inevitably causes beatific consternation among the
recipients...I don't have any of > the companion albums, but the I love the
modified voice sounds as much as John > Giorno's and they are much
creepier.

Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there may have
been 4 but I could be wrong...

Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and Say No
More In Person?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware, etc.
Date: 06 Jun 2000 01:14:46 EDT

Anyone have any comments about the duo performances from Taylor & Roach or
Baron & Carter (I'm especially interested in hearing how this one went!).  I
was really bummed out that I had to miss this, so please fill me in on the
details.  Thanks!

-Evan

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 02:20:41 EDT

In a message dated 6/5/00 3:38:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< >>Well, considering that Western "classical" and "jazz" musics are among
 >>the only musics in which harmonic movement is a significant factor...

 <<<This is just the problem.  We don't have a set of terminology for some of
 the musics which are now emerging and we have yet to discover a working
 terminology for the musics of many of the world's cultures. Talking about
 intervals and counterpoint is hardly helpful in a discussion of most
musics.>>>

Why do you believe that intervals are an irrelevant concept in world musics?
The distance between 2 pitches can be assessed in any music.  With regard to
counterpoint, if there is more than one voice happening at any given time
then counterpoint exists.  There are only 4 types of movement:  contrary,
oblique, parallel and similar.  Any 2 or more voices or instruments in any
culture exhibit this behavior, no?   I am taking the time to explore this
discussion with you and others because I truly wish to understand other
peoples perception of musical experiance.  There is a lot of music I have not
heard and I look forward to getting turned onto music that challanges my
sense of order and reality.


<<< We can write gamelan music or talk about the music in africa or even
notate
 that music, but the scope of understanding that our system of notation and
 our cherished western music vocabulary offers does not begin to help us
 understand how the music is heard by the people who make it...the people who
 understand that musical language.>>>

These are 2 mutually exclusive concepts.  To notate or transcribe any
expression is just to notate the expression.  To notate is not to illuminate
the thought process behind the expression.  This is an area of philosophy or
psychology.

 <<>>

Here we go again, what do you mean by superflous or genuine?

 <<<Take LMC or Taku Sugimoto.  I don't think you could really say that
they're
 moving into any really new areas of counterpoint but yet some people
 consider their music to be genuine.  What sorts of terms would you use to
 talk about Kevin Drumm's music? .. >>>

Is  LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above?
His is the only music of the 3 above mentioned composers that I have heard.
Never heard his records, only 2 live shows.  >>>

<<< I do think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's
the
 most effective tool to separate artistic success from failure.>>>

 It seems to me that only the composer can judge if the piece is a success or
failure.  Afterall , isn't it a success if the  music reflects the composers
intent?     Which brings me around to a point , which I believe is the main
reason all of these kinds of questions are asked and that is, "What is the
composers intention?"  "Why does the composer or the musician write or play
what they do?"

Peace and best wishes,
Bruce

www.eisenbeil.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz Satellites Volume II
Date: 06 Jun 2000 10:54:48 +0000

Some time back, there were a few enquiries about the  proposed tracklisting
for the 3CD volume 2 of Kevin Martin's 'Jazz Satellites' compilation, a
project sadly dropped by Virgin Records, UK, following my departure. Well,
I finally got the listing out of Kevin, and here it is. Read it and weep.
As some consolation, here at motion ( http://motion.state51.co.uk ) we're
looking at putting this together as a 'radio' show. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

Simon

DISK 1
George Russell - 'Events I-Vii' from 'Electronic Sonata For Souls Loved By
Nature' (Soul Note) 1968
Julien Priester Pepo Mtoto- 'Love,Love' from 'Love,Love' (ECM) 1974
Carl Craig  & the Innerzone Orchestra - 'Bug In The Bassbin'(Jazz Mix)
(Mowax/A&M) 1996
Terumasa Hino - 'Aboriginal' from 'Double Rainbow' (Sony Japan) 1976
Bisk - 'Convergence' from 'Strange of Funny Ha Ha ?' (Sub Rosa) 1997

DISK 2
Sonny Sharrock - 'Many Mansions'  from 'Ask the Ages' (Axiom)
Pat Martino - 'Baiyina' from 'Baiyina - The Clear Evidence' (Prestige)
Mahavishnu Orchestra/John Mclaughlin - 'Miles Out' from 'Inner
Worlds'(Columbia Jazz)
AMM - 'Convergence' from 'It had been an ordinary enough day in
Pueblo,Colorado' (ECM) 1980
Peter Brotzmann/Bill Laswell - 'Locomotive' from 'Low Life' (Celluloid)
Contraband - 'The One Who Knows' from 'Time & Space'(Epic/CBS)
John Fahey - 'The Mill Pond' from 'Blind Joe Death' (Tim/Kerr Records) 1997
Masayuki Takayanagi -  'What have we given it' (April Disk) 1975
Ray Russell Quartet - 'A Day in the Life of a Slave in Lower Egypt' from
'Turn Circle' (CBS) 1968
Caspar Brotzmann/FM Einheit - 'Nizzary' from 'Merry Christmas' (Rough Trade
Deutschland/Blast First) 1994

DISK 3
Yusef Lateef - 'Sound Wave' from 'Reevaluations:The Impulse Years' (Impulse)
Charlie Mariano - 'Madras' from 'Mirror' (Atlantic) 1972
Joe Zawinul - 'Arrival in New York' from 'Zawinul' (Atlantic) 1971
Chris Bowden - ' Life Support' from 'Time Capsule' (Soul Jazz) 1996
Howard Shore / Ornette Coleman - 'Interzone Suite' from 'Naked Lunch -
music from the original soundtrack' (Milan) 1992
Marc Moulin - 'Tohubohu' from 'Sam Suffy' (Counterpoint Records) 1996
The Art Ensemble of Chicago - 'Tnoona' from 'Fanfare For The Warriors'
(Atlantic Records) 1974
Jigen - 'Appearance' from 'Soliloquy of Chaos'(Shi-ra-nui) 1997
John Coltrane - 'Living Space' from 'Infinity' (Impulse/MCA) 1965/1993
Pharoah Sanders - 'Village of the Pharoahs Pt.1' from 'Village of the
Pharoahs' (ABC/Impulse)
Quincy Jones  - 'The Lost Man' from 'The Lost Man' (Universal/MCA)
Charles Earland - 'Grasshopper' from the soundtrack to 'The Dynamite
Brothers'(Prestige) 1973
Marion Brown - 'Sweet Earth Flying Pt.3' from "Sweet Earth
Flying'(ABC/Impulse) 1974



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daryl Loomis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Date: 06 Jun 2000 07:22:55 -0700

>>Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there >>may have been 4 but I could be wrong...

>>Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and >>Say No More In Person?


According to the notes, Verbatim is the third in the series of four.  "Say No More" is in the studio, "Say No More in Person" is the live version of the former.  "Verbatim" is, again, in the studio, and then the fourth is live to complete the series.  Ostertag says that the album is forthcoming, but that was as of 1996, so I don't know if it was ever released.

Daryl Loomis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Verbatim (, Flesh and Blood)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 07:45:44 -0700

The fourth part, "Verbatim, Flesh and Blood,"  is out now. I picked it
up at Amoeba in Berkeley
a couple of weeks ago. I only have the first and fourth in the series,
and can't wait to get
the other two to find out how the hell Ostertag got from point A to
point B. (or D, or Z...)
Totally cool.

William Crump

Daryl Loomis wrote:

> >>Just wondering, how many were there in the series? I think there
>>may have been 4 but I
could be wrong...
>
> >>Come to think of it, isn't Verbatim the third, after Say No More and
>>Say No More In
Person?
>
> According to the notes, Verbatim is the third in the series of four.
"Say No More" is in
the studio, "Say No More in Person" is the live version of the former.
"Verbatim" is, again,
in the studio, and then the fourth is live to complete the series.
Ostertag says that the
album is forthcoming, but that was as of 1996, so I don't know if it was
ever released.
>
> Daryl Loomis
>
>
> -




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 10:30:51 -0400

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:20:41AM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

> These are 2 mutually exclusive concepts.  To notate or transcribe any
> expression is just to notate the expression.  To notate is not to illuminate
> the thought process behind the expression.  This is an area of philosophy or
> psychology.

But to notate or transcribe an expression imposes the transcriber's
idea of what is important. Someone transcribing a piece for
shakuhachi or didjeridoo in western notation (that is, almost entirely
in terms of pitch and rhythm) would utterly miss the timbral
subtleties that, to the performer, would be the point of the
performance.

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bach/Caine
Date: 06 Jun 2000 14:51:07 EDT

I had heard that the Bach project was to feature a classical choir of singers. Was this not the case at those shows?

J

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 13:20:04 -0600


Bruce wrote:
>Why do you believe that intervals are an irrelevant concept in world
>musics?
>The distance between 2 pitches can be assessed in any music.

Bruce,

Maybe not irrelevant, as you have said we can call a relationship between
two pitches an interval but as Joseph Zitt pointed out, these types of
concepts are sometimes not part of the mental framework which the musician
is drawing upon.  But he was more poiniant than I have been.

>With regard to counterpoint, if there is more than one voice happening at
>any given time then counterpoint exists... Any 2 or more voices or
>instruments in
>any culture exhibit this behavior, no?

Yes, but a transcription of the "counterpoint" between the principal flutes
in a Gagaku orchestra would be pretty messy.  Gagaku is traditional court
music of Japan and the flutes often play similar versions of the same melody
but the intervals are often unrecognizable to a western ear.  Here again our
transcriptions in western notation are inadiquate to fully represent the
music.

Or, try your hand at the music of Evan Parker.  How are you going to notate
his sound?  Maybe we don't even need to go that far in time.  I mean, to me,
a sizable part of the brilliance of John Coltrane or Albert Ayler is not in
their counterpoint, compositional structure, harmonic scheme etc, but rather
in the use of sound on their instrument.  I believe notation would not help
someone who had never heard their music to understand the power it contains.
(of course this is opinionated) -- my point is that the entirety of their
sound cannot be represented by notation.

>There is a lot of music I
>have not heard and I look forward to getting turned onto music that
>challanges my sense of order and reality.

This is one of my goals as well.  well put.

>To notate or transcribe any
>expression is just to notate the expression.  To notate is not to
>illuminate the thought process behind the expression.

No, but it does impose the thought process/(cultural value system?) behind
the notation.

>Is  LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above?

yes...sorry for the confusion.  I've seen it abriviated a bit on the list.

>His is the only music of the 3 mentioned composers that I have
>heard.

If you wanted to hear them check out list-member Jon Abbey's label
erstwhile.  I can try to describe their work but the example wasn't really
that important anyway.

Personally, I really like Kevin Drumm's ablum "Second," and the
Mueller/Rowe/Sugimoto release on erstwhile deserves to be treated with a
vocabulary that we don't really have.

Matt Wirzbicki







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 21:20:40 +0200

 Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) <[e-mail]> wrote:
> This is just the problem.  We don't have a set of terminology for some of
> the musics which are now emerging and we have yet to discover a working
> terminology for the musics of many of the world's cultures. Talking about
> intervals and counterpoint is hardly helpful in a discussion of most
musics.
> We can write gamelan music or talk about the music in africa or even
notate
> that music, but the scope of understanding that our system of notation and
> our cherished western music vocabulary offers does not begin to help us
> understand how the music is heard by the people who make it...the people
who
> understand that musical language.

Anybody who had tried tio record music knows that even the recording -
digital, new 988 ASS technology - is always a seelction aand a recreation of
a musical event. So what can we excpect form a description or notation?

> I do think that analysis is extreemly interesting, but I'm not sure it's
the
> most effective tool to separate artistic success from failure.

Well, that's right: and the ones who like it should write about the status
of analytical truths or the rules of translation, not music. And if they do,
analisys should serve the music.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 21:14:38 +0200

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> My point was that people should not feel intimidated to say what they
think
> about music. Specialists might have more knowledge, but since they always
> have an agenda (getting their paycheck, complying to the latest
intellectual
> fad, etc), a non-specialist who has escaped brainwash has something to
> say that can be as relevant.

I think that sincere discussion led by 'nonspecialist' (whatever that may
mean - we seem to assume that this discussion is of that kind, despite the
fact that 've got here on  this list a nice bunch of musicians, and some
people informed about 'modern thoeries') is much more informing then a
'speciaist' (ie professional - paid, which impliest the mentioned agendas
etc.) debate that is supposed to be closed to the public and their efforts
to formulate the views which one finds important.

> Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged
specialists
> (Boulez, Adorno, etc). And what? How does what these "enlighted"
intellectuals
> once wrote stand now? How many PhDs do we need to be slightly less wrong
that
> these specialists?
> Yes, there are some interesting ideas that they expressed, but this is
hidden
> under a pile of dogmatism and fadish attitude.

BTW could you tell something on the Boulez's writings? I love his works
(both as conductor and composer) and would be interesterd in what he writes.
I do not hesitate to call Adorno's stuff bullshit - i cannot stop to think
that the guy is crying THE WORLD DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HE WOULD LIKE IT TO
LOOK, and being highly educated he writes books whose depth does not go far
beyond an essay in a sunday newspaper, but are much lore lenghty and
peretencious. 'Philosophy of the new music' is a horrible work. In judging
Stravinsky, he does notr give any argument, nor even a sincere opinion why
he finds that music such a horrible thing. Who is this guy to judge 'Rite of
spring' or 'L'histoire du soldat'? His work looks so poor compared with
Stravinsky's masterpieces...

> Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new
philosophical
> babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like to be
> impressed)?
> It should be clear by now that there is no known algorithm to decide if
music
> is good or bad. But a still fairly common approach, pretending reaching
> objectivity, consists in using the latest fashion in ready-to-wear
philosophy
> (or critic theory) to "analyze" and rate a piece of art.

Well the way i see it, the problem consist in the fact that the philsophical
techniques became the end in these discussion: even perosnal opinions are
not put forward. Adorno is still a great example: reading his books i had
the impression that he did not want to say something on art but tried to
create a theory that WOULD BE GREAT.
But there are exceptions. See Wittgenstein diaries and the way he describes
the world there.

> Are you impressed by post modernism? Doesn't it make you feel like when
> doctors during Middle Age were using Latin language to hide the
vacuousness
> of their discourse?
> I know, being French, I should not spit in the soup...

I agree. I don't find anything new there.

> Confronted with the total failure of intellectual approaches to criticism,
> I think that nobody should feel ashamed to say what they think without
> being intimidated by "specialists" who most of the time have no clue (but
> an agenda).

Exactly.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 14:36:24 -0400

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:20:04PM -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)  wrote:

> >Is  LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above?
>
> yes...sorry for the confusion.  I've seen it abriviated a bit on the list.

FWIW, I tend to rean LMC as meaning the London Musicians Collective,
unless context suggests otherwise.

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 21:37:40 +0200

Mathhew Wierzbicki wrote:
> Yes, but a transcription of the "counterpoint" between the principal
flutes
> in a Gagaku orchestra would be pretty messy.  Gagaku is traditional court
> music of Japan and the flutes often play similar versions of the same
melody
> but the intervals are often unrecognizable to a western ear.  Here again
our
> transcriptions in western notation are inadiquate to fully represent the
> music.

Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the issue.
Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll see the
limitations of notation.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 12:57:32 -0700


On Tue, 06 Jun 2000 04:42:18 GMT  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> <This raises the question of who is more qualified to judge music: a
> mediocre artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having
> done his homework)? >
>
> No one is qualified to judge music.  No one could possibly do enough
> homework.

Wow! What a strong statement. Even the post-modern critic? Even with
the help of deconstruction? That's really disappointing. For a few
minutes, you almost convinced me.

> <If every artist was of the stature of Picasso or Cage>
>
> This is it in a nutshell.  A hierarchy of evaluation.  What if we are
> surprised to find out that one common DJ in our time has as subtle a
> knowledge about music as Mr. Cage?  Would this be blasphemous?

Sorry, I did not know that stating that some artists are more important
than others was taboo. I guess, thinking that way is being elitist,
right? I mentioned Picasso and Cage simply as archetypes of over-
achievers, artists who really changed the way we perceive creation.
I almost naively thought that nobody would question that choice...

Since you are bothered by that, you would have to listen to everything
to be able to make a judgement. Since you can't, I understand now why
your are saying: "No one is qualified to judge music". Based on your
assumption, it is in fact practically impossible.

But for people who don't buy your assumption, they can limit themselves
to a more manageable number of artists (those that they consider as
worth their time) and make some judgements (with the risk of being
wrong, it goes without saying).

What's wrong with making a judgement? The risk of being wrong? Not
for you, I guess, since "No one is qualified to judge music", hence
judgement is beyond the limit of our poor human logic capability (to
decide if something is right/wrong, good/bad, etc). Of course, all
this is based on your premiss ("No one is qualified to judge music"),
which, sorry to tell you, I don't buy at all.

> <Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged
> specialists à.At least critic is totally harmless (not like political
> theories...). >
>
> Political theories donÆt kill people; people kill people, which they do
> anyway, without theories most of the time.  As far as the timelessness of
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You should tell that to people from Cambodia.

> aesthetic attitudes and the harmlessness of critics, Hans Haacke had a
> different take, when he juxtaposed ExxonÆs support for  the symphony next to
> the effects of their investment in S. Africa during apartheid.

Wow! What a shrewd finding! The conspiracy theory is always more appealing.
The likely reason (a big company sprinkling money here and there for tax
purposes) looks boring in comparison (and not worth writing a paper).

> <Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new
> philosophical babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like
> to be impressed)? I mean, how many fashionable theories will it take to get
> it right? Are we getting closer from the ultimate truth with any of these
> new theories? Or are we just turning in round and wasting our time?>
>
> Are we still believing in "ultimate truth" and "getting it right,"  Patrice?

After the successes of structuralism, Marxist, and post-modern theories (I am
sure that I am forgetting a couple), I won't surprise you by saying that I
gave up that lofty objective.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ostertag & Say No More / Verbatim
Date: 06 Jun 2000 15:01:41 -0500 (CDT)


Just so everyone knows what the say no more project is, here's a
description of the creative process the ensemble uses, taken from
ostertag's web site: http://www.detritus.net/ostertag/

Ostertag began Say No More by sending the three instrumentalists,
separately, into studios with no instructions other than to record
improvisations. Using a computer, Ostertag then took these tapes and
reconstructed them into a "band" that played works he composed from
fragments of the improvisations. The remarkable recording that resulted is
possibly the first recording ever released by a band that had never played
a note together. Originally released on the RecRec label, it is now
available only through this web site.
Ostertag then returned this recording, along with a score, to the
musicians. In effect they were challenged to re-learn their own playing,
but as heard through the prism of Ostertag's work. When the musicians
gathered to rehearse, the ensemble began to develop a life of its own
through the direct interaction of with the musicians struggling to perform
the computer-derived material.
In October 1993, Say No More made a live recording at ORF-Vienna which was
released as the band's second cd, Say No More in Person. It features the
same compositions that Ostertag developed on the computer, performed in
their transformed, concert rendition.
Next, Ostertag put the live recording back into the computer, exploded it
once again into little bits, and assembled a new composition, Verbatim,
released in 1997. The group premiered the live version of Verbatim at the
Taktlos Festival in Switzerland, 1996.

---end snippit from website.  since then, the group recorded and released
the 4th cd, a live version of the music appearing on Verbatim.  There
was/is some talk of a box set of all 4 cds, but i don't know what's up
with that...

cheers,
whit


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 13:07:24 -0700


On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:14:38 +0200  "Marcin Gokieli" wrote:
>
> BTW could you tell something on the Boulez's writings? I love his works
> (both as conductor and composer) and would be interesterd in what he writes.
> I do not hesitate to call Adorno's stuff bullshit - i cannot stop to think
> that the guy is crying THE WORLD DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HE WOULD LIKE IT TO
> LOOK, and being highly educated he writes books whose depth does not go far
> beyond an essay in a sunday newspaper, but are much lore lenghty and
> peretencious. 'Philosophy of the new music' is a horrible work. In judging
> Stravinsky, he does notr give any argument, nor even a sincere opinion why
> he finds that music such a horrible thing. Who is this guy to judge 'Rite of
> spring' or 'L'histoire du soldat'? His work looks so poor compared with
> Stravinsky's masterpieces...

If I remember well, Adorno's main "argument" to demolish Stravinsky is that
the composer is bourgeois (would have been fun to check who was paying Adorno's
bills...). Starting with this rock solid "axiom", and going backward (you
fix the target first), he is able to make his point. Is that what we can call
intellectual integrity?

And Adorno is usually the pie in the face that you get when you dare to
doubt about the relevance of these music critic theorists...

Fortunately, more people remember Stravinsky than Adorno.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Naked City question...
Date: 06 Jun 2000 16:24:54 EDT

I might be being foolish here, but why are many of the tracks from
Torture Garden on Grand Guignol too?
This is some what annoying, considering the high price of Naked City records.
The songs are enjoyable in any case though.

What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
enjoyed
both of the tracks that they composed.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out.

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Bach/Caine
Date: 06 Jun 2000 16:40:12 -0400

Hello XRedbirdxx,

Tuesday, June 06, 2000, you wrote to me:

Xac> I had heard that the Bach project was to feature a classical
Xac> choir of singers. Was this not the case at those shows?

There was no any choir at this show.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City question...
Date: 06 Jun 2000 13:41:59 -0700


On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:24:54 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I might be being foolish here, but why are many of the tracks from
> Torture Garden on Grand Guignol too?
> This is some what annoying, considering the high price of Naked City records.
> The songs are enjoyable in any case though.
>
> What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zillions of records with Debussy's music. One of my favorite is Boulez
conducting:

    Prelude a l'Apres-midi d'un Faune
    La Mer
    Jeux

(I can check the exact ref. I you want)

"Jeux" is maybe one of the most underated pieces of this century. This
is the summum of Debussy's sophistication. Since it does not make as
much noise as Stravinsky's "Rite" :-), people thought it was less revolu-
tionary. That may be true but "Jeux" is as good as "The Rite" to
represent modernity in the early 20th century.

After that? Get "Iberia", "Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien", "Nocturnes".
And this short list does not cover his wonderful piano pieces (his
"Children's corner" is so pretty).

If you dig opera (some people don't), you will have to try his haunting
"Peleas and Melisande".

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation
Date: 06 Jun 2000 23:02:57 +0200

Patrice L. Roussel wrote

> If I remember well, Adorno's main "argument" to demolish Stravinsky is
that
> the composer is bourgeois (would have been fun to check who was paying
Adorno's
> bills...). Starting with this rock solid "axiom", and going backward (you
> fix the target first), he is able to make his point. Is that what we can
call
> intellectual integrity?

He has, if i remember correctly, more rock solid axioms to fight with... He
says that IS's music is schizophrenic, that it embodies (that's almost a
quote, although i can't find the book now) - 'the oppression of the people
by the owners'. That it is badly written, simplistic, and noisy.
It's worth mentioning that Schoenberg (the positive hero of the story) did
not like the thing at all.
I do think that it is very strange that serious people can find that stuff
interesting. Hypocrysie, i believe.

> And Adorno is usually the pie in the face that you get when you dare to
> doubt about the relevance of these music critic theorists...

What a horrible pie in the face! Lets not talk about this @&&*!%^ anymore...
BTW, what would such a guy say about Torture Garden or Locus Solus (BTW I
wonder whther he read the Patrice's uncle ;-)  book.)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: sonic boom/june discs
Date: 06 Jun 2000 18:33:46 -0500


despite horrific probs wit me server, i'll offer up an article on, like, sound.
email me and i'll try to send you the full text.

LONDON (AP) - For the first time, sound artists have reached center stage in
London.
Works by 26 artists are humming, clicking, whirring, whistling and banging away
in the Hayward Gallery's "Sonic Boom: The Art of Sound," providing an
alternative to art lovers used to looking at drawings, paintings and sculpture.
One exhibit consists of 51 record players stacked on scaffolding from floor to
ceiling and another is a "Quiet Club."
There are dark rooms, flashing lights, sensors in floors to trigger noise as
people pass by, and even bird calls from the Brazilian rain forest to listen to
through headphones while standing outside looking across the river Thames toward
Big Ben.
"Sonic Boom" features artists from 10 countries and four continents, and was put
together by David Toop, a British musician, writer and sound curator...


also, here's wha's expectd in june, reaped from the a.p. newswire:

By Jonathan Takiff
Knight Ridder Newspapers
JUNE 6
"Nativity in Black 2" (Divine) features a rash of heavy metal currents paying
tribute to Black Sabbath. Among 'em - Pantera, Medadeth, System of a Down,
Monster Magnet and Godsmack. FYI - Sabbath's Ozzy Osbourne is proprietor of
Divine Recordings, and makes an appearance (with Primus) on the track "NIB."
Chick Corea is represented with "Standards" and "Originals" (Concord), two live
solo albums from his recent tour. The former covers tunes by Monk, Porter, Kern
and Powell, the second revisits his "Spain" and "Brasilia."
Guitarist Charlie Hunter returns with a self-named set on Blue Note. Rosemary
Clooney and John Pizzarelli collaborate on "Brazil" (Concord).
James Carter delivers two sets - "Layin' in the Cut" and "Chasin' the Gypsy"
(both Atlantic).
John and Alice's second son, Ravi Coltrane, scores "From the Round Box" (RCA),
mixing originals with idiosyncratic takes on tunes by Wayne Shorter, Thelonious
Monk and Ornette Coleman.
Steve Earle digs those "Transcendental Blues" (E-Squared/Artemis) and even
dabbles in Irish music with the aid of accordion player Sharron Shannon.
JUNE 20
The late Doug Sahm is celebrated with a full-blown country album "The Return of
Wayne Douglas" (Tornado), polished posthumously by Bill Kirchen and Doug's old
saddle pal, Augie Meyers.
Long-lost RCA/Bluebird recordings by Bill and Charlie Monroe surface on "What
Would You Give in Exchange for Your Soul?"
The late, great mambo king Tito Puente lives on to "Party With Puente"
(Concord).
Martial Solal and Johnny Griffin take it "In and Out" (Dreyfus). Carla Bley and
Steve Swallow ask "Are We There Yet?" while Swallow hosts his own date, "Always
Pack Your Uniform on Top" (both ECM).

np: Scott Miller/Joe Fonda - Bottoms Out



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: sonic boom/june discs
Date: 06 Jun 2000 20:17:33 EDT

In a message dated 00-06-06 18:33:59 EDT, [e-mail] writes:
>Long-lost RCA/Bluebird recordings by Bill and Charlie Monroe surface on "What
>Would You Give in Exchange for Your Soul?"

Unfortunately, the Knight-Ridder round-up article Kurt clipped and posted
fails to mention that this disc is on Rounder (they make it sound like it is
RCA), and is the first of 4 volumes that will encompass, for the first time
in the US, a comprehensive reissue of all 60 sides the Monroe Brothers made
together in the 1930s, and extremely significant body of pre-bluegrass Monroe
work.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Wosnitzer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware,
Date: 06 Jun 2000 22:51:17 -0400

The Max Roach Cecil Taylor combo was simply amazing.  They played for over
one hour in the beautiful outdoor atmosphere at Columbia University and they
basically took turns soloing.  They played with many different tempos but
overall they just kept going when you though they might stop.  After their
playing was over, each sat to play his own solo one last time.  Baron and
Carter were also great.  Joey Baron opened by playing with his hands and
then the two broke out into a faster pace and went for about 45 minutes.
Carter had some typical awesome solos and Baron played some of his typical
solos and was excellent as well.  He played as a backdrop for Carter and
also took over at times himself.  Overall, it was an excellent concert.
Later, Matt



on 6/6/00 1:14 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> Anyone have any comments about the duo performances from Taylor & Roach or
> Baron & Carter (I'm especially interested in hearing how this one went!).  I
> was really bummed out that I had to miss this, so please fill me in on the
> details.  Thanks!
>
> -Evan
>
> -
>

Matthew Wosnitzer
6177 Lerner Hall
New York, NY 10027-8363

212.853.5745
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dann-Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City question...
Date: 07 Jun 2000 00:11:53 -0400

> What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
> enjoyed
> both of the tracks that they composed.
> Thanks to anyone who can help me out.


For Ives, i highly recommend his Fourth Symphony, Orchestral Set #'s 1 & 2,
and his 'Holidays' Symphony.

-------
Dann-Brown

np: Pavement - "Cut Your Hair" CROOKED RAIN
-------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francesco Martinelli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sonic boom/june discs
Date: 07 Jun 2000 07:25:59 +0200

> LONDON (AP) - For the first time, sound artists have reached center stage
in
> London.
> Works by 26 artists are humming, clicking, whirring, whistling and banging
away
> in the Hayward Gallery's "Sonic Boom: The Art of Sound," providing an
> alternative to art lovers used to looking at drawings, paintings and
sculpture.
> One exhibit consists of 51 record players stacked on scaffolding from
floor to
> ceiling and another is a "Quiet Club."
> There are dark rooms, flashing lights, sensors in floors to trigger noise
as
> people pass by, and even bird calls from the Brazilian rain forest to
listen to
> through headphones while standing outside looking across the river Thames
toward
> Big Ben.
> "Sonic Boom" features artists from 10 countries and four continents, and
was put
> together by David Toop, a British musician, writer and sound curator...
i've visited the exhibition. it sounds more exciting in paper. The brazilian
forest thing is very neat, best pieces are by Max Eastley as usual. Eno's
quiet club is... quiet.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Bach/Caine
Date: 06 Jun 2000 22:50:54 -0700

Hi guys,

I saw Uri play the Goldberg variations with the Seattle Chamber Players in
March.  Just piano, violin, cello, clarinet and flute.  Very good, with
Uri's trademark arrangements, but maybe a little more like a straight
rendition with the acoustic instrumentation.  I made a recording of the
show, and I have an extra pair of CDs if either of you are interested.  Let
me know.

- Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Peter Gannushkin
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:54 PM
> To: XRedbirdxx @ aol . com
> Subject: Re: Bach/Caine
>
>
> Hello XRedbirdxx,
>
> Monday, June 05, 2000, you wrote to me:
>
> Xac> Anyone catch Uri Caine's Bach Goldgerb Variation Project this
> Xac> past weekend at the Jazz Standard??
>
> I saw them yesterday. The ensemble includes almost the same people as
> Mahler's project: Uri Caine - piano, Greg Tardy - clarinet and tenor
> sax, Ralph Alessi - trumpet, Diane Monroe - violin, Barbara Walker -
> vocals, DJ Olive - turntables, Drew Gress - bass, Ralph Peterson -
> drums and two poets.
>
> Caine did the same thing with Bach as with other composers before. He
> played solo a little, arranged Bach for piano, violin, double bass and
> trumpet in a very good Bachish way and added lots of R&B, jazz and
> some klezmer music. Excellent arrangement and piano playing as usual.
> Diane Monroe, Barbara Walker, Drew Gress and Ralph Peterson were great
> too. Others were quit good but not so interesting.
>
> The only bad thing was the worst acoustics in the city of Jazz
> Standard. It was not unexpected though.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Peter Gannushkin
> e-mail: [e-mail]
>
>
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: max'n'cecil, joey'n'ron, dsware, laguardia high
Date: 07 Jun 2000 10:21:19 -0500


absolutely historic night on columbia's campus. that's the first thing, knowing
i got bragging rights on some piece of jazz lore for when i'm an old guy. (a
couple i know were also at the 1979 and 1989 max/cecil sets, but what're you
gonna do).

the historic feel is relevant because it really permeated the evening, i
thought. and it may be why the audience (1,000 at least?) was surprisingly quiet
and respectful. a beautiful night.

that said...

tubamaster bob stewart and the laguardia high jazz band (w/soloists james
spaulding(!), wes anderson and someone else) - strong playing of big band
charts, mostly ellington and a piece from peer gynt which i assume was duke's
arrangement, altho bob didn't say so. ended with a strong version of mingus'
moanin'. to say they were great for their age would be a disservice. just a
strong, energetic big band steeped in tradition.

ron carter and joey baron - well... uh, good thing joey was there. i've always
found rc to be rather hit or miss. this seemed like 45 min of so of him going
'and i know this riff and i know this riff and i know this riff and i know this
riff...'. always-a-joy joey, however, excels in such a setting (i used to love
to watch him divine rhythms from the pedal-induced chaos frisell would create,
when it seemed bf didn't even know where he was going (tho maybe that was just
the shtick).

david s. ware quartet - ok, i've never been a champion of dsw either. i seem to
end up seeing him one place or another every summer, and i sorta think he's a
blowhard without much to say. but this was great. great. strong statement of an
aylery, gospelly theme by shipp, then ware came in and they took it to the sky
(there being no roof). great playing all around. lovely to see parker lay out a
fearsome noise, rattling the bricks of my stodgy alma mater. my first time
seeing brown, too. where'd he come from?

max roach and cecil taylor - one of the aforementioned couple said 'even if it
wasn't good, it was great.' seems like it took them a good 20 minutes to start
playing together, and even then each was pushing more than listening. but so the
fuck what? 2 brilliant players, the solos and the final duet were exceptional,
and damn if it's just good to see max pound for over an hour. rumors about his
failing health (true or not) be damned.

oh, and next time there's free history in the making, pick up after your damn
selves, y'all. that's all.

np: bobby zankel quintet - prayer and action



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: artists and self-expression
Date: 07 Jun 2000 14:22:28 GMT

Bruce wrote:

<The distance between 2 pitches can be assessed in any music. With regard to
counterpoint, if there is more than one voice happening at any given time
then counterpoint exists. There are only 4 types of movement: contrary,
oblique, parallel and similar. Any 2 or more voices or instruments in any
culture exhibit this behavior, no? I am taking the time to explore this
discussion with you and others because I truly wish to understand other
peoples perception of musical experiance.>

This can be a valuable exercise I think for bringing out a
structural/formalist approach to music using conventional vocabulary of that
sort.  I think itÆs a limited approach though for looking at other aspects
of music, including emotive/affective aspects.  For those matters, we need
to use a different vocabulary.

Patrice wrote:

<If I remember well, Adorno's main "argument" to demolish Stravinsky is that
the composer is bourgeois (would have been fun to check who was paying
Adorno's bills...). Starting with this rock solid "axiom", and going
backward (you fix the target first), he is able to make his point. Is that
what we can call intellectual integrity? And Adorno is usually the pie in
the face that you get when you dare to doubt about the relevance of these
music critic theorists... Fortunately, more people remember Stravinsky than
Adorno.>

I would never throw Adorno into anyoneÆs face since his theories on music,
particularly jazz, constitute a very inadequate reading.  But before I threw
Adorno out in trash, IÆd spend more than just an hour or two looking at the
Dialectic of Enlightenment and Minima Moralia so that you can see the hell
from which he emerged.  As far as his expanding the text of music into areas
outside the hermetic and solipsistic spaces of notation, I think that was a
positive contribution, despite all his high modernist aestheticism.  If more
people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, itÆs because the institutions that
support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support Adorno.
The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the responses one
sees on this list.

╪ <This raises the question of who is more qualified to judge music: a >
mediocre artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having >
done his homework)? > >
╪  > No one is qualified to judge music. No one could possibly do enough
homework.
╪ <Wow! What a strong statement. Even the post-modern critic? Even with the
help of deconstruction? That's really disappointing. For a few minutes, you
almost convinced me. >

"Qualification" and "homework" were your words.  You should be better than
this at reading joking hyperbole.

<Sorry, I did not know that stating that some artists are more important
than others was taboo. >

Not taboo.  Revealingà

<Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged
specialists à.At least critic is totally harmless (not like political
theories...). > >
╪ <Political theories donÆt kill people; people kill people, which they do
anyway, without theories most of the time. As far as the timelessness of >
╪ < You should tell that to people from Cambodia. >

Bad example.  Would you like to read my article on Cambodia?  Since you
prefer simple explanations, it would probably be moot to point out to you
that Pol Pot got his brilliant ideas about constructing irrigation systems
by reading the mythic fabrications of the 19th century French explorers in
the French libraries in the late fifties.  Now did more people die in
digging these irrigation systems or in being bludgeoned to death?  Is it
worth pointing out as well that French imperialists landed in Indochina long
before "badly-read Marx" did, thereby setting the stage for the
anti-colonialist rebellion of the Khmer Rouge?  Shall I go on for another 35
pages or so?

╪ aesthetic attitudes and the harmlessness of critics, Hans Haacke had a
different take, when he juxtaposed ExxonÆs support for the symphony next to
the effects of their investment in S. Africa during apartheid.>
╪ < Wow! What a shrewd finding! The conspiracy theory is always more
appealing. The likely reason (a big company sprinkling money here and there
for tax purposes) looks boring in comparison (and not worth writing a
paper). >

Actually, Haacke is an artist, believe it or not.  Not a Picasso to be
certain, and so I wouldnÆt expect you to know him as such.  This image was
the basis of an installation he did in Germany awhile back.

<After the successes of structuralism, Marxist, and post-modern theories (I
am sure that I am forgetting a couple), I won't surprise you by saying that
I gave up that lofty objective. >

But perhaps if you read more than just two or three sentencesà.

Your serveà





________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: sonic boom
Date: 07 Jun 2000 15:38:18 +0000

>i've visited the exhibition. it sounds more exciting in paper. The brazilian
>forest thing is very neat, best pieces are by Max Eastley as usual. Eno's
>quiet club is... quiet.

Can't really go along with Francesco's overall assessment of the show,
although I agree with him about Max's being the best pieces.

In any case, myself, Dan Hill and Matt Fretwell from the ---+motion team
went down during the preparation of the show and interviewed some of the
artists involved. In a couple of weeks we'll have videos of the interviews
up on the site, but for now we've put up transcripts of interviews with
David Toop (who curated the show, of course), Max Eastley and Stephan Von
Heune. During the course of the week we'll add transcripts of our chats
with Thomas Koner, John Oswald and Russell Mills & Ian Watson.

You can read the interviews at:

http://motion.state51.co.uk

We've also (finally) posted up our interviews with Paul Bley, Tomasz
Stanko, Pole and Mike Ladd. Again, video versions to follow soon.

Cheers

Simon



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: artists and self-expression
Date: 07 Jun 2000 19:33:42 +0200

Bill Ashline wrote (commenting Patrice L.)

> I would never throw Adorno into anyoneÆs face since his theories on music,
> particularly jazz, constitute a very inadequate reading.  But before I
threw
> Adorno out in trash, IÆd spend more than just an hour or two looking at
the
> Dialectic of Enlightenment and Minima Moralia so that you can see the hell
> from which he emerged.  As far as his expanding the text of music into
areas
> positive contribution, despite all his high modernist aestheticism.

What do you mean? What kind of 'hell' one can find in these cheap kind of
social philosophy that consist in showing great education and no
responsiveness to-- actual social life (reaction to jazz is just a great
example - just imagine that the mfer could just go and see Charlie Parker
live instead of wrting his #$$% - he did it in NYC in the forties). The most
striking fact of his writing is absolute lack of interest in actual theory
of value - compare MacIntyre's After Virtue, where large sections (chapters
XIV, and also XI & XV) are devoted to the discussion of the theory of value
and the structure of value judgement.


> If more
> people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, itÆs because the institutions that
> support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support Adorno.
> The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the responses
one
> sees on this list.

Well... THAT IS STRONG
I doubt if you seriously say that the interest people show in Stravinsky and
not in Adorno is just a function of 'institutional support'. And i do not
mean just Adorno in particular - I  would say the same thing about the
thinkers i admire much more, as Kant, Wittgenstein, Fodor, and Quine. I do
like much more listening to l'histoire du soldat then reading the Critiques,
despite the fact that i do both quite intensively.
Information is not knowledge, & music is  the best. That's all, really all.

Have fun,
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 15:57:27 EDT

In a message dated 6/6/00 3:40:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the issue.
 Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll see the
 limitations of notation.

 Marcin Gokieli
 [e-mail]
  >>

Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to read?
Seriously, being a guitarist myself, I am the strongest proponant that the
map is not the territory.  In order to bring this around to the original
concept that was being discussed, I think that with regard to discussions of
quality, in order for us to have discussions that go beyond surface aspects
of good work vs.  bad work, concepts that can be quantified in a notational
system that is somewhat universal should be expressed and discussed.  In the
book that Zorn edited, ARCANA, many musicians express concepts that are the
underpinnings of their work.  These are modern composers and improvisors with
extensive backgrounds.   What makes a music critic qualified?  Do they play
an instrument?  Do they understand the underpinnings of an artists work?   I
don't mean to imply that YES is the best answer to these questions.  In the
best music the musicians at some crucial point discovered the escape tunnel
to the universal music-stream.   To describe this , I find it impossible but
nonetheless, there are musical concepts, intervals and counterpoint that
exist that help to define the architecture and movement along the way to the
point of departure.

Regards,
Bruce

www.eisenbeil.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tonic Tonight (Moore/Gordon/Mori/Olive/O'Rourke)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 16:04:55 -0400

I really want to go but, alas, I cannot for I have to go to DC for a
day.  If anyone is going and happens to tape (if allowed) I would
love to get a copy.  Please email me privately.

--Wed, Jun 07--
Thurston Moore/Kim Gordon, Ikue Mori & DJ Olive Trio with special
guest Jim O'Rourke Double Bill at 8:00pm


Dan Hewins

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Verbatim
Date: 07 Jun 2000 22:42:15 +0200 (CEST)


Bob Ostertag has a website where you can obtain CDs from him :

http://www.detritus.net/ostertag

Jacques Oger




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dann-Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 07 Jun 2000 18:24:12 -0400

....specifically the two albums "Who's Bridge" and "No Idea".

Can anyone give their opinion on these?  High points, etc.?
-------
Dann-Brown

np: TMBG - "Greek #3", THEN
-------



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 16:32:05 -0600



<< Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the
issue.
 Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll
see the
 limitations of notation.

 Marcin Gokieli
 [e-mail]
  >>

Bruce replied:
>Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to
>read?

no, simply because he is not BB King and therefore cannot play like him no
matter how explicit the instructions are or how skilled he is at following
them.

>I think that with regard to
>discussions of
>quality, in order for us to have discussions that go beyond surface
>aspects
>of good work vs.  bad work, concepts that can be quantified in a
>notational
>system that is somewhat universal should be expressed and discussed.

I'd be curious to see a couple examples of these "quantified concepts" with
relation to specific works/composers to see just how it will lead to quality
judgments.  Hopefully, it will not turn into a search for the masterful
mental musician who composes complex theoretical patterns and is therefore
worthy to be termed "better."

I apologize if my comments come off as antagonistic but I really am just
curious because I feel that this is some pretty shakey ground you're asking
us to walk on.  Still I do agree that it would be nice to excape the simple
desciptives and metaphores and hyperbole used so frequently to talk about a
"good" piece of music, concert, album etc.

>In the best music the musicians at some crucial point discovered the
>escape
>tunnel to the universal music-stream...there are musical concepts,
>intervals and counterpoint that exist that help to define the architecture
>and movement along the way to the point of departure.

or the architecture of the departure??

On a semi-related tone:

I recently saw a document in which a theorist tried to discover the method
to the madness of Cecil Talyor.  The basic premise was that what he does
(and the author didn't mention if he felt that Cecil Taylor was concious of
this or not) is to contract the melody (the piece in question did have a
basic theme) into tone clusters and then toy with the clusters, adding
subtracting, modifying...I wasn't at the convention or anything so I didn't
hear his whole presentation, I just caught a glimpse of the pamphlet.

Matt Wirzbicki


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 17:56:59 -0400

On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 04:32:05PM -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)  wrote:
>
>
> << Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the
> issue.
>  Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll
> see the
>  limitations of notation.
>
>  Marcin Gokieli
>  [e-mail]
>   >>
>
> Bruce replied:
> >Is that because of notation or because of the guitarists ability to
> >read?
>
> no, simply because he is not BB King and therefore cannot play like him no
> matter how explicit the instructions are or how skilled he is at following
> them.

Why not?

> On a semi-related tone:
>
> I recently saw a document in which a theorist tried to discover the method
> to the madness of Cecil Talyor.  The basic premise was that what he does
> (and the author didn't mention if he felt that Cecil Taylor was concious of
> this or not) is to contract the melody (the piece in question did have a
> basic theme) into tone clusters and then toy with the clusters, adding
> subtracting, modifying...I wasn't at the convention or anything so I didn't
> hear his whole presentation, I just caught a glimpse of the pamphlet.

An interesting approach (whether or not it's used in this case).

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 07 Jun 2000 18:52:47 -0400

Hello Dann-Brown,

Wednesday, June 07, 2000, you wrote to me:

DB> ....specifically the two albums "Who's Bridge" and "No Idea".

DB> Can anyone give their opinion on these?  High points, etc.?

Both are beautiful. I like No Idea more though.
Joey Baron and Greg Cohen are playing on it and Brad Jones replaced
Cohen on Who's Bridge.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Ives
Date: 07 Jun 2000 19:13:38 EDT

an ives must is the Universe Symphony. there is a realization done by larry austin which rather misses the mark. but johnny reinhard in nyc has a realization too. has been performed in 96, recording in the works i believe. he's at [e-mail]. there may be a website on it too; try searching his name and universe symphony.

Jb

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Eisenbeil, Merzhbow
Date: 07 Jun 2000 19:52:07 CDT


<<Thanks for your input Samuel.  I don't know Merzhbow's work.  Is there
something that you would specifically recommend?
Bruce>>

  Yes. I don't know the exact title but I have it one tape.  Something with
Rainbow in the title. I also have an album called Oersted. I like the album,
and the packaging is pink. (I'm a sucker for pink.)
      -Samuel

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Teichman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Max and Cecil and all them
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:24:16 -0400

Laguardia High School Band:  Good for a high school band, but I have to
say, these kids are pretty lucky to get an entire Max/Roach Cecil Taylor
captive audience to play before :)  The drummer was excellent and the
bassist was not bad, but the vocalist (who came out for one number) was
disturbingly off key.

Ron and Joey:  A really groovy 45-minute-or-so-long duet between Ron Carter
and Joey Baron.  I've never had the pleasure of seeing either of them live
before, and it was quite a great experience seeing both of them in action.
Now I have some inkling as to how Joey Baron articulates such a large set
of delightful sounds on such a diminuitive kit.

David S. Ware:  The David S. Ware quartet (unfortunately, no Susie Ibarra
in this edition, but Guillermo Brown is also an excellent drummer) was a
real treat to see.  Unfortunately, since it was a big outdoor event, the
sound quality left something to be desired.  William Parker was absolutely
inaudible, but it sure looked like he was playing some great stuff :)  When
no one else was playing, however, he was quite audible, and on fire!  It
really threw the speaker system for a loop when he started doing his crazy
bow stuff.  Matt Shipp was a genius as always.  He seems to break new
musical ground every time he sits in front of a piano.  I've never heard of
this Guillermo Brown guy either, but I quite enjoyed his solo.

Max and Cecil:  Unfortunately, I was forced to bail out of this historic
event early in the night, but I did manage to catch the first half hour of
Max Roach and Cecil Taylor, who I'm told went on for another half hour with
their opening piece.  Max had this funny drum that did all these crazy
pitch bends; maybe someone else on this list can explain the technical
details of what was going on with that drum.  Cecil was magnificent!  He
was all over the place, and still it seemed like his fingers couldn't quite
keep up with all the ideas pouring out of his head.  Beautifully free,
stream-of-consciousness stuff.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 07 Jun 2000 20:35:20 CDT

Um. On Eric Dolpy's 'Last Date', there is a piano player, name spelled Misja
Mengelberg. Can I assume this is one and the same as Misha?
  and... is Misha Mengelberg a male or a female?
    thanks in advil,
           -Samuel

np:Rachmanninov: Rhapsody on Theme by Paganini

(just trying this whole NP thing. don't know why...)

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-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: artists and self-expression
Date: 08 Jun 2000 01:39:45 GMT




Marcin wrote:
>
>What do you mean? What kind of 'hell' one can find in these cheap kind of
>social philosophy that consist in showing great education and no
>responsiveness to-- actual social life (reaction to jazz is just a great
>example - just imagine that the mfer could just go and see Charlie Parker
>live instead of wrting his #$$% - he did it in NYC in the forties).

Boy you are ignorant, aren't you.  Adorno was one of the many intellectuals
who escaped Nazism in the forties.  If you bothered reading anything other
than his books on music, you'd know this.

>The most striking fact of his writing is absolute lack of interest in
>actual >theory of value - compare MacIntyre's After Virtue, where large
>sections (chapters
>XIV, and also XI & XV) are devoted to the discussion of the theory of value
>and the structure of value judgement.

On what do you base this argument, his book on Aesthetic Theory perhaps?  If
you're going to claim that he has an "absolute lack of interest in `actual'
theory of value," whatever "actual" means, I'm going to argue that you've
never read the man at all.

> > If more
> > people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, itÆs because the institutions
>that
> > support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support Adorno.
> > The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the responses
>one
> > sees on this list.
>
>Well... THAT IS STRONG
>I doubt if you seriously say that the interest people show in Stravinsky
>and
>not in Adorno is just a function of 'institutional support'.

I'd most assuredly say that.  It comes out in your particular love for music
over other "forms of life," a Wittgensteinian phrase that I'm sure you'll
recall.

>And i do not
>mean just Adorno in particular - I  would say the same thing about the
>thinkers i admire much more, as Kant, Wittgenstein, Fodor, and Quine. I do
>like much more listening to l'histoire du soldat then reading the
>Critiques,
>despite the fact that i do both quite intensively.
>Information is not knowledge, & music is  the best. That's all, really all.


That says it, doesn't it?  Your preference for Anglo-American philosophy
over continental European.  Fodor and Quine don't exactly go together
though.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 07 Jun 2000 22:00:40 -0400

samuel yrui wrote:
>
> Um. On Eric Dolpy's 'Last Date', there is a piano player, name spelled Misja
> Mengelberg. Can I assume this is one and the same as Misha?

The same.
>   and... is Misha Mengelberg a male or a female?

XY

--Mike

--
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer,  Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 07 Jun 2000 22:13:37 EDT

Nice try- but it's supposed to be something that totally throws off everyone on the list, while impressing them with your diversity in musical tastes.

Example:

--
np: Menudo- Exitos Grandes

=dg=

=========================

In a message dated Wed, 7 Jun 2000  9:36:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]> writes:

<<
np:Rachmanninov: Rhapsody on Theme by Paganini

(just trying this whole NP thing. don't know why...)

 >>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 20:54:01 -0600

>>he is not BB King and therefore cannot play like
>>him no
>> matter how explicit the instructions are or how skilled he is at
>>following
>> them.

>Why not?

I suppose the word "like" isn't effective.  He can play "like" BB King but
he will be filtering the sounds of BB King through himself.  Unless he can
have no conciousness of his own existance and entirely assimilate his being
to the being of BB King (maybe with the help of modern science) he will only
sound "like" BB King.  Granted, the difference may sometimes be very slight
especially if the player is very skilled and has an audio recording to
emmulate but the source of the emotive character of the solo will be absent
and that will effect the sound.

A good performer will be able to mold an emotive character which is a
balance of the indications in the score and his/her own inclinations.

The same thing happens with any score.  No two people will ever play it
quite the same way.  Just listen to a couple different interpretations of
Beethoven sonatas and the diversity of approach is pretty clear.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Hugo Linares" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Misha Mengelberg
Date: 08 Jun 2000 01:10:26 -0300



>
>DB> ....specifically the two albums "Who's Bridge" and "No Idea".
>
>DB> Can anyone give their opinion on these?  High points, etc.?
>
>Both are beautiful. I like No Idea more though.


On the contrary, I think "Who's Bridge" is unbeatable; though "No Idea" is
beautiful indeed.
Though I recommend both, you should try "Who's Bridge" first.

My two pesos.


Hugo Linares



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Max and Cecil and all them
Date: 08 Jun 2000 02:14:25 -0400

Matt Teichman wrote:

> Laguardia High School Band:  Good for a high school band, but I have to
> say, these kids are pretty lucky to get an entire Max/Roach Cecil Taylor
> captive audience to play before :)  The drummer was excellent and the
> bassist was not bad, but the vocalist (who came out for one number) was
> disturbingly off key.

Seconded regarding the drummer and the vocalist.  But the band was not just
"good for a high school band," I'd have to say.  They were a lot better than my
college big band, for one example...  And there were some terrific solos by
Warren Vache (with his arm in a sling!), Wes Anderson and especially James
Spaulding.  I enjoyed this a lot more than I enjoyed...

> Ron and Joey:  A really groovy 45-minute-or-so-long duet between Ron Carter
> and Joey Baron.  I've never had the pleasure of seeing either of them live
> before, and it was quite a great experience seeing both of them in action.
> Now I have some inkling as to how Joey Baron articulates such a large set
> of delightful sounds on such a diminuitive kit.

Jeez, I wish I had something better to say about this set.  It got real tired
real quick.  Ron Carter is a great figure in jazz history, but I didn't hear
that he had a lot to say on this gig.  Joey was Joey, completely dependable,
affable and enjoyable.  Low point for me was when Joey started playing a
clearly discernible Monk tune on his drums and Ron joined in - only Ron didn't
play ANY of the correct notes for said tune's melody...

> David S. Ware:  The David S. Ware quartet (unfortunately, no Susie Ibarra
> in this edition, but Guillermo Brown is also an excellent drummer) was a
> real treat to see.

I'm still on the fence regarding Mr. Brown.  In re: Matt's and Kurt's question
regarding where he came from, he was introduced to Ware by Cooper-Moore, in
whose ensemble he'd been playing recently (prior to the Ware/Ibarra schism).

> Unfortunately, since it was a big outdoor event, the
> sound quality left something to be desired.  William Parker was absolutely
> inaudible, but it sure looked like he was playing some great stuff :)  When
> no one else was playing, however, he was quite audible, and on fire!  It
> really threw the speaker system for a loop when he started doing his crazy
> bow stuff.

I found the bowed solo to which Matt refers to be brutally painful - not the
solo per se, but the solo as delivered through the sound system.  But, given
the overamplification, I found many parts of the evening to be painful from a
purely sonic perspective.  I understand the urge for artists to play in front
of huge crowds, but some of this music just sounds far better played in smaller
rooms, with minimal amplification.  Hope that doesn't sound too elitist...

> Matt Shipp was a genius as always.  He seems to break new
> musical ground every time he sits in front of a piano.

Funny, I had quite the opposite reaction - not that I disliked anything Matt
played, far from it, in fact, but I felt his playing to be rather more
conservative than usual, and in general fairly derivative of McCoy Tyner's
comping style with the "classic" Coltrane quartet.  In fact, in the heat of the
moment, I told my girlfriend that I thought Shipp's playing was inhabiting the
middle ground between Tyner and Taylor... the space defined by Alice Coltrane,
a brilliant and underrated player.

Throw things at me if you must, but I don't mean this to be a criticism;
rather, I enjoyed the notion that Matt has come to the point where he's willing
to allow some overt melodicism into his playing.  Ware, too, I enjoyed a great
deal.  This must have been the closest he's come so far to realizing his dream
of playing to the size and kind of crowd that Charles Lloyd enjoyed in his
heyday.  No small irony in the fact that it comes at a time when Ware's
covering a Lloyd tune liberally based on Trane's version of "My Favorite
Things"...

Minor caveats aside, I, too, greatly enjoyed this set.

> Max and Cecil:  Unfortunately, I was forced to bail out of this historic
> event early in the night, but I did manage to catch the first half hour of
> Max Roach and Cecil Taylor, who I'm told went on for another half hour with
> their opening piece.  Max had this funny drum that did all these crazy
> pitch bends; maybe someone else on this list can explain the technical
> details of what was going on with that drum.

It was a floor tom with a foot pedal similar to the one found on a timpani -
raising or lowering the pedal with your foot changes the tension of a small pad
pressed against the drum head, thereby raising or lowering its pitch.  I
thought he used the gimmick far too much, but then that's me, a drummer (no,
dammit, NOT the drummer from Journey!!!) who knew what he was doing.  The
novelty value may have been greater for others.  Joey Baron often does the same
thing with the heel of his foot actually applied to the drumhead.

> Cecil was magnificent!  He
> was all over the place, and still it seemed like his fingers couldn't quite
> keep up with all the ideas pouring out of his head.  Beautifully free,
> stream-of-consciousness stuff.

One journalist said to me that Cecil played everything it was possible to play
on the piano that night, and I'm inclined to agree.  He was simply
breathtaking, and without an ounce of compromise even given that he was playing
to a much, much larger crowd than normal.

That said, I actually (and perhaps a bit uncharitably) found myself wondering
if Cecil reserves his best game for the gigs in which he's afforded the luxury
of playing with musicians who have been unconditionally recognized as jazz
icons, since Cecil has only recently begun to garner widespread acceptance
within that elite fraternity.  I adore Cecil unconditionally, but some of the
finest playing I've ever heard from him in a live setting was on this evening
with Max Roach and another occasion not so long ago with Elvin Jones at the
Blue Note in NYC, thus leading to the query I posed...

Agreed with Kurt that it took a while for Max to get up to speed (and I also
agree that it has everything to do with failing health, not failing
creativity).  For much of the first piece it sounded like Max was simply doing
his best to accompany Cecil, not to challenge him or even to enter into a
conversation.  But later Max seemed to be catching up, and it was a true
dialogue for the last stretch.  Max then played his classic solo composition
"The Drum Also Waltzes."  Cecil then took a solo turn that, like his solo track
on last year's CD 'Momentum Space,' perfectly crystallized his Promethean art
within the space of a few minutes.  The finale was a duo dedicated to the
memory of Tito Puente, and it made for the most satisfying duo music of the
evening.  Standing huddled under a blanket with my lovergirl, we danced in
place, entranced...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Joel Harrison, "I Don't Live Today," demo CD-R


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: artists and self-expression
Date: 08 Jun 2000 10:39:22 +0200

Bill Ashline wrote:

> Boy you are ignorant, aren't you.  Adorno was one of the many
intellectuals
> who escaped Nazism in the forties.  If you bothered reading anything other
> than his books on music, you'd know this.

Well, i read some other of his work, and do find them disgusting

> On what do you base this argument, his book on Aesthetic Theory perhaps?
If
> you're going to claim that he has an "absolute lack of interest in
`actual'
> theory of value," whatever "actual" means, I'm going to argue that you've
> never read the man at all.

Well, what he writes in Dialectics of enlightment (I am not sure whther
that's the correct english title, but probably is), which is not a book on
music, shows a lack of intret in theory: my impression was that the guy used
rhetoric to avoid statements of more theoretical value.
I did not read aesthetic theory, neither neagtive dialectics, but i think
that his way of writing is an insult to the readres.

> > > If more
> > > people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, itÆs because the institutions
> >that
> > > support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support
Adorno.
> > > The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the
responses
> >one
> > > sees on this list.

Well - what do you mean?

> >Well... THAT IS STRONG
> >I doubt if you seriously say that the interest people show in Stravinsky
> >and
> >not in Adorno is just a function of 'institutional support'.
>
> I'd most assuredly say that.  It comes out in your particular love for
music
> over other "forms of life," a Wittgensteinian phrase that I'm sure you'll
> recall.


of course it does come from my particular love for music. I just mean that
it is normal and that much more people like to listen to 'the rite' then to
read Adorno, and that it has not much to do with institutional support. I do
not know what kind of support you mean - here in Poland there is none.

> That says it, doesn't it?  Your preference for Anglo-American philosophy
> over continental European.  Fodor and Quine don't exactly go together
> though.

????! (mabe a personal post would be better on this particular topic, as we
move quite dramatically off-topic)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Max and Cecil and all them
Date: 08 Jun 2000 05:05:54 EDT


In a message dated 6/8/00 2:15:16 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I actually (and perhaps a bit uncharitably) found myself wondering
if Cecil reserves his best game for the gigs in which he's afforded the luxury
of playing with musicians who have been unconditionally recognized as jazz
icons, since Cecil has only recently begun to garner widespread acceptance
within that elite fraternity.  I adore Cecil unconditionally, but some of the
finest playing I've ever heard from him in a live setting was on this evening
with Max Roach and another occasion not so long ago with Elvin Jones at the
Blue Note in NYC, thus leading to the query I posed... >>

I'm not sure if it's that he reserves his best game for the topnotch guys or
that it's those are the guys who push him and bring his best work out in a
manner that "lesser" musicians don't. you can add in his set with Derek
Bailey at Tonic last month to the list of superior sets with jazz icons, or
improv icons at least. I much preferred that set to the one with Jones at the
Blue Note, but I've never been a huge Elvin Jones fan.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Odp: artists and self-expression
Date: 08 Jun 2000 10:39:22 +0200

Bill Ashline wrote:

> Boy you are ignorant, aren't you.  Adorno was one of the many
intellectuals
> who escaped Nazism in the forties.  If you bothered reading anything other
> than his books on music, you'd know this.

Well, i read some other of his work, and do find them disgusting

> On what do you base this argument, his book on Aesthetic Theory perhaps?
If
> you're going to claim that he has an "absolute lack of interest in
`actual'
> theory of value," whatever "actual" means, I'm going to argue that you've
> never read the man at all.

Well, what he writes in Dialectics of enlightment (I am not sure whther
that's the correct english title, but probably is), which is not a book on
music, shows a lack of intret in theory: my impression was that the guy used
rhetoric to avoid statements of more theoretical value.
I did not read aesthetic theory, neither neagtive dialectics, but i think
that his way of writing is an insult to the readres.

> > > If more
> > > people remember Stravinsky than Adorno, itÆs because the institutions
> >that
> > > support Stravinsky are lot more powerful than those that support
Adorno.
> > > The power of these institutions are exemplified in some of the
responses
> >one
> > > sees on this list.

Well - what do you mean?

> >Well... THAT IS STRONG
> >I doubt if you seriously say that the interest people show in Stravinsky
> >and
> >not in Adorno is just a function of 'institutional support'.
>
> I'd most assuredly say that.  It comes out in your particular love for
music
> over other "forms of life," a Wittgensteinian phrase that I'm sure you'll
> recall.


of course it does come from my particular love for music. I just mean that
it is normal and that much more people like to listen to 'the rite' then to
read Adorno, and that it has not much to do with institutional support. I do
not know what kind of support you mean - here in Poland there is none.

> That says it, doesn't it?  Your preference for Anglo-American philosophy
> over continental European.  Fodor and Quine don't exactly go together
> though.

????! (mabe a personal post would be better on this particular topic, as we
move quite dramatically off-topic)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?new=20G=FCnter=20M=FCller=20CD?=
Date: 08 Jun 2000 06:42:12 EDT

it might fall through the cracks since it's not on For 4 Ears, but G=FCnter=20
M=FCller's newest record, Direct Chamber (33revpermi), a trio with trombonis=
t=20
Fabrice Charles and Michel Doneda, shouldn't be missed for fans of his work,=
=20
or for fans of the recently named "microvising" scene. very quiet,=20
intricately involving material. nothing that'll change your life, but a very=
=20
nice record, one of the better things I've heard this year.

not sure how 33revpermi is distributed in the US; I got my copy in France.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: more on sonic boom
Date: 08 Jun 2000 12:08:33 +0000

Apols for being increasingly off-topic, but I've a bit more news about
Sonic Boom. The Paul Schutze site ( http://paulschutze.com ) now has
several pages about his role in the show, and the building of the 'Third
Site' installation piece. Go to 'installations' on the site's front page or
direct to: http://paulschutze.com/sonicboom/.

Cheers

Simon



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Merzbow
Date: 08 Jun 2000 11:09:12 -0400

> <<Thanks for your input Samuel.  I don't know Merzhbow's work.  Is there
> something that you would specifically recommend?

Well I've got this thing called _Space Metallizer_ on the Canadian
Alien8 label.  I don't know if it's representative, or better than
the other stuff.  Basically it's pure unabashed electronic noise,
with little evolution or development.  There's a few things about
this one that are funny.  First, the label says, "Loads of change
ups make it a very catchy Merzbow release."  (Uh huh.)  Second, the
first track is called "Space Metallizer Pt.1" and then, amazingly
enough, one later called "Space Metallizer Pt.2," which I can only
view as pure redundancy.  A friend of mine calls this record "the
most unlistenable thing he's ever heard" out of my collection, and
that's saying a lot actually.  For a "very catchy" record.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Indy Jazz
Date: 08 Jun 2000 11:49:01 -0400

Does any one know what the jazz scene is like in Indianapolis?  I may be
going there for college and am curious.  Thanks

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_new_G=FCnter_M=FCller_CD?=
Date: 08 Jun 2000 14:18:54 -0600


>it might fall through the cracks since it's not on For 4 Ears, but
>G=FCnter=20
>M=FCller's newest record, Direct Chamber (33revpermi), a trio with
>trombonist=20
>Fabrice Charles and Michel Doneda, shouldn't be missed for fans of his
>work,=20

Thanks for the recommendation.  I saw a few other recent releases on =
the
European free improvisation home page.  I wonder if you or anyone else =
on
the list might be able to comment on any of them.

Sassi/Doneda/Pichelin/Ninh "Montagne Noire" (poil)
Quatuor Helios (works by Ninh, Globokar, Takemitsu)
Hauf/Siewert/Stangl/Dieb 13 "Efzeg" (Durian)
Tilbury/Parker "Two Chapters and an epilogue"

>or for fans of the recently named "microvising" scene.

Do you know who began using this term?=20

>I got my copy in
>France.

welcome back.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_new_G=FCnter_M=FCller_CD?=
Date: 08 Jun 2000 15:26:04 -0500

I still prefer to call it "battleship" improvising, but "microvising" does
have a nice ring to it.


At 02:18 PM 6/8/00 -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) wrote:

>>or for fans of the recently named "microvising" scene.
>
>Do you know who began using this term?


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20new=20G=FCnter=20M=FCller=20CD?=
Date: 08 Jun 2000 16:41:03 EDT


In a message dated 6/8/00 4:19:30 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Quatuor Helios (works by Ninh, Globokar, Takemitsu)>>

just got it, haven't heard it yet.


<<Hauf/Siewert/Stangl/Dieb 13 "Efzeg" (Durian)>>

very good, as is the previous Durian CD, Printer. Efzeg has its moments of
rock-inspired wildness, but most of it is the Polwechsel-style subtle improv
we've grown to know and love.


<<Tilbury/Parker "Two Chapters and an epilogue" >>

I wasn't crazy about this after one listen, "a bit like chalk and cheese", to
use the words of Keith Rowe. the second long piece works better than the
first, but I don't think it's essential.

<<or for fans of the recently named "microvising" scene.


Do you know who began using this term? >>

Rob Young used it in the Wire in his long glitch piece, then Ben Ratliff
picked it up for his Times piece a few weeks back.

<<welcome back.>>

thanks! I took lots of notes at the 24 hour MIMEO show, planning to write up
a long piece for this list, but it looks like I'm reviewing the show for the
Wire now, so I probably should hold off. but I will say that it was possibly
the most intense musical experience of my life. myself, Tom Pratt, and a
German fan were the only three audience members to make it through all 24
hours awake.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: guitar...no zorn content.
Date: 08 Jun 2000 16:59:36 EDT

hi all.

i'm looking to do a project, via mail, with a guitar player. it will be a duo recording with myself playing turntable & someone playing guitar. i'm looking for a guitar player who is willing to play sparse, with a lot of space and texture.
if this is of interest please email me privatley. thanks. jason t.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: ibarra & hunt
Date: 08 Jun 2000 17:03:16 EDT

any reviews of the new susie ibarra album on tzadik?
also has anybody heard the jerry hunt album on tzadik (with karen finley & mike patton on vocals).

thanks. jason t.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Death Ambient tonight @ Tonic, NYC 6/8
Date: 08 Jun 2000 17:41:34 EDT

Mourn the music.  Wear Black.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: possibly release date for LIVE IN SEVILLA
Date: 08 Jun 2000 18:12:06 -0400

I already made my pre-order for MASADA LIVE IN SEVILLA 2000, and the Amazon
website says that it will be release on July 25th.  Just thought you'd like
to know the (probably) exact date.

Neil H. Enet
------------

NP: DOT ALLISON: colour me (single)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Death Ambient tonight @ Tonic, NYC 6/8
Date: 09 Jun 2000 00:28:03 +0200

You guys in NYC have too much fun.
Just send some info about how was it like...

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tilbury Parker
Date: 08 Jun 2000 18:28:37 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:

> I wasn't crazy about this after one listen, "a bit like chalk and cheese", to
> use the words of Keith Rowe. the second long piece works better than the
> first, but I don't think it's essential.

I think the biggest problem with the Tilbury/Parker disc is one of
ultra-high expectations. imo, it's not a bad disc at all, just not as
wonderful as one might have hoped. The first long track is a bit hunt
and peck, to my ears steered by Tilbury, but has some attentive
conversational playing eventually. The second seems to follow Parker's
lead, with EP in patented swirls of sound mode and Tibury gamely keeping
up. It's the only time I've heard Tilbury approach the frenetic in his
playing; he sometimes sounds positively Taylorish! The final short
piece, however, gels superbly. They revert to the style of the first but
everything connects, every sound seems exactly right. An entire album at
this level would've been incredible. Still, I'd say lower one's
expecational sights a bit and pick it up.

Brian Olewnick

NP: I dunno, some opera my wife put on.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Merzbow
Date: 09 Jun 2000 01:03:47 EDT

<< I don't know Merzbow's work.  Is there
something that you would specifically recommend? >>

many of Merzbow's releases are in the wall of noise vein previously
discussed, but there are a few that aren't which I'd highly recommend. both
volumes of Music For Bondage Performance (Extreme) are more detailed and
almost ambient in stretches, and The Prosperity of Vice, the Misfortune of
Virtue (Che) under the name Masami Akita is tone-based electronica, much
closer to Pan Sonic than to a typical Merzbow record. I'd suggest trying one
of the Extreme records before giving up on Mr. Akita.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MiniDisc
Date: 09 Jun 2000 01:58:49 -0400

Dear Friends,

I need your help.

Do any of you perchance have a MiniDisc Player (or Recorder) with a Digital
OUT port?

If you do, please contact me ASAP.

Thanks very much in advance, guys,

Ljova

--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Italian Instabile Orchestra
Date: 09 Jun 2000 06:03:13 EDT

I see that they're scheduled to play the Chicago Jazz festival at the end of
August/beginning of September. anyone know if they have more US dates,
specifically NYC?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20new=20G=FCnter=20M=FCller=20CD?=
Date: 09 Jun 2000 10:34:28 -0400 (EDT)

Jon wrote:

myself, Tom Pratt, and a
German fan were the only three audience members to make it through all 24
hours awake.

This is a good thing?

Ken Waxman

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Italian Instabile Orchestra
Date: 09 Jun 2000 10:44:05 -0400 (EDT)

No, but they ar playing the Toronto Jazz Festival June 30 in a club.

Ken Waxman



On Fri, 9 Jun 2000 [e-mail] wrote:

> I see that they're scheduled to play the Chicago Jazz festival at the end of
> August/beginning of September. anyone know if they have more US dates,
> specifically NYC?
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20new=20G=FCnter=20M=FCller=20CD?=
Date: 09 Jun 2000 10:48:07 EDT


In a message dated 6/9/00 10:36:01 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< myself, Tom Pratt, and a
German fan were the only three audience members to make it through all 24
hours awake.

This is a good thing? >>

I was just stating it as a fact. it was actually a real shame that the
concert wasn't better attended, which was at least partially due to it being
scheduled from Tuesday afternoon through Wednesday afternoon. but the fact
that stretches of it seemed almost like a private command performance was
kind of cool in a way, yes, especially since I believe it was a historic
event.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Laferty <[e-mail]>
Subject: Indian music (no zorn content)
Date: 09 Jun 2000 11:32:31 -0400


I was thinking about buying the recent cd box set "The Raga Guide" and am
wondering if any listers have any exposure to it.

I am concerned that four discs of the same artists playing short ragas
without the usual extented performances would be boring.  I'm a fan of
indian raga, but don't know my tala from my alapa, so I'm interested in the
book.  But how is the listening for a semi-experienced Indian classical
listener?

Thanks for your time.

ps.  I just got Vol. 4 of the Harry Smith anth, and would love to hear  of
anyone else's transcendental experiences with the first three songs on disc
two:  Hello Stranger, Stand by Me and West Virginia Girls

M
---
Matt Laferty
Department of English, General Literature, & Rhetoric
Binghamton University
PO Box 6000
Binghamton, NY 13902
607.777.2754
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Free Classical Dementia
Date: 09 Jun 2000 11:54:34 -0400


Fans of Classical Dementia (the Genre, I suppose) might enjoy this lovely
mp3.com station I just found:
http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/25/classical_dementia.html

Some interesting stuff there.

Regards,

-Ljova


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: freejazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 13:01:23 EDT

I've heard quite a number of good things about european free jazz, and
i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.
Evan Parker, Peter brotzmann, derek bailey, etc. seem to be names that come
up often. Paul Rutherford's "the gentle harm of the bourgeoisie" is also
supposedly very good.
any help would be appreciated.

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: freejazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 11:35:52 -0600


>I've heard quite a number of good things about european free jazz, and
>i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.

>Evan Parker,

If you can find "Saxophone Solos" on Chronoscope it's well worth the $$.
Also Conic Sections on AH UM.  This one's a circular breathing fest.
A more available solo album is Process and Reality on FMP.

My first exposure to Evan Parker was through "Most Material" (duo with Eddie
Prevoust) on Matchless records and I still recommend that album highly.

There are also a number of CDs of Evan Parker with Barry Guy and Paul
Lytton.

>Peter brotzmann,

I'm not a huge fan but I'd say that in terms of historical significance you
might want to look at "Machine Gun" on FMP.

>derek bailey

Derek Bailey has a huge discography, and I've heard relatively little of it.
But my two cents is to start with the solo material.  "Aida," "Incus taps,"
and maybe even "Takes Fakes and Dead She Dances."

Of course, you probably shouldn't go without hearing Cecil Taylor either.

You could even go back a little bit and pick up a couple Albert Ayler
records ("Spiritual Unity," "Bells/Prophecy")...Ornette's album "free Jazz"
with Eric Dolphy is pretty classic, as is Dolphy's "Out to Lunch."  Maybe
even some late Coltrane material: "Meditations," "Sun Ship..."  But some of
these may begin to leave the area of free jazz a little bit.

I'd also recommend checking out the music of AMM.  I'm not sure what you're
looking for but I'd highly recommend their album "Before driving to the
chapel we took coffee with Rick and Jennifer Reed" (Matchless Records).

Also check out the European Free Improvisation web site:

www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/ehome.html

hope this is some help.

Matt Wirzbicki


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: freejazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 10:46:15 -0700

[e-mail] wrote:

> I've heard quite a number of good things about european free jazz, and
> i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.
> Evan Parker, Peter brotzmann, derek bailey, etc. seem to be names that come
> up often. Paul Rutherford's "the gentle harm of the bourgeoisie" is also
> supposedly very good.
> any help would be appreciated.
>
> ben
>

If you don't have the Penguin Guide to Jazz on Compact Disc (by Cook and
Morton), I highly recommend it for use as a guide to the European improvisers,
as well a handy starting place for prolific artists' discographies, and it's
just a darn good read, too.  Unlike most reviews, the Penguin Guide actually
gives me a good idea of how something might sound. I think the fourth edition
is the most recent. (Stan Getz on the cover.)

William Crump


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Laferty <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: freejazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 13:55:36 -0400

Ben

I would wholeheartedly recommend almost anything on the German label FMP.
That includes Brotzmann, lots of Cecil Taylor from 1988 and later, Evan
Parker, Han Bennink, and others.

I love Brotzmann's "Machine Gun" and "Live in Berlin 1971" as well as a
couple of others.  Taylor's duets with different drummers on that label are
also pretty impressive.

There is also a bunch of legal mp3s on the European Improvisors Website
that would provide good intros to Bailey, et al...

Matt


At 01:01 PM 6/9/00 EDT, [e-mail] wrote:
>I've heard quite a number of good things about european free jazz, and
>i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.
>Evan Parker, Peter brotzmann, derek bailey, etc. seem to be names that come
>up often. Paul Rutherford's "the gentle harm of the bourgeoisie" is also
>supposedly very good.
>any help would be appreciated.
>
>ben
>
>-
>
>
---
Matt Laferty
Department of English, General Literature, & Rhetoric
Binghamton University
PO Box 6000
Binghamton, NY 13902
607.777.2754
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Indian music (no zorn content)
Date: 09 Jun 2000 13:58:48 -0400




Matt Laferty asked:
>I was thinking about buying the recent cd box set "The Raga Guide" and am
>wondering if any listers have any exposure to it.

>I am concerned that four discs of the same artists playing short ragas
>without the usual extented performances would be boring.  I'm a fan of
>indian raga, but don't know my tala from my alapa, so I'm interested in the
>book.  But how is the listening for a semi-experienced Indian classical
>listener?

I'm not sure where I fit on the Indian classical scale, probably left of
semi-experienced.  But I recommend the set highly.  The book is nearly 200
pages, with a full page of VERY detailed notes on every track: scale in western
notation and Indian notation, lyrics if any, history of the raga, when it should
be performed, etc.  More than you would ever need to know.

There _is_ some variety, even though there are only a few performers, since they
don't all perform together:  there will be a flute track, then a male vocal
track, maybe another flute, then a female vocal, etc.  All of the tracks do have
a predicable "pattern":  statement of the scale, then variations on it.  As a
semi-semi-experienced listener, I find it easier to get my head around these
pieces than the 30+ minute ones that one usually hears.  My only complaint is
that the ragas are presented in strict alphabetical order (there are 84 in all).
I would have preferred them to be arranged by recommended listening time or
something.  But that's a quibble.

Glenn Lea



-



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From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 11:26:20 -0700

>  Matt Wirzbicki wrote:t

> I'd also recommend checking out the music of AMM.  I'm not sure what you're
> looking for but I'd highly recommend their album "Before driving to the
> chapel we took coffee with Rick and Jennifer Reed" (Matchless Records).

AMM is pretty far from 'free jazz', but definitely is worth checking out for anyone interested in improvised music.  I wouldn't, however, recomment "Before driving..." as the first place to start. It is an OK album, but compared to some of the others in the catalogue, it doesn't hold up.

There are two ways I would recommend going at AMM: 1) get one of the late 80s/early 90s discs, such as Nameless Uncarved Block, Newfoundland, or Allentown.  This might be the best era for starting out with, as all contain really great music, and it may actually be a bit more 'accessible' than the earlier work to a listener who doesn't know what they are in for.

2) start early.  Personally, I started in the middle (Nameless...), and am now disappointed I did this, because it by the time I heard AMMusic and The Crypt I was already aware of where the journey they were on was headed. The earlier stuff is much more noisy, and it would have been interesting to hear the way they developed into the more refined music of the newer recordings.  So, my recommendation would probably be The Crypt as a great start (though AMMusic is earlier, I won't recommend it because I have only heard it a couple of times, but remember it as being worth getting).

Dan


_______________________________________________________________________

Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now!
http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go

_______________________________________________________________________


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ibarra & hunt
Date: 09 Jun 2000 14:35:43 PDT

>any reviews of the new susie ibarra album on tzadik?
>also has anybody heard the jerry hunt album on tzadik (with karen >finley &
>mike patton on vocals).

To risk being called a heathen for only liking the track with Patton on
vocals, I'll go ahead and say that that was the only I liked. I guess if you
know Karen Finley and enjoy her, that would help; her vocals make me push
'skip'. Also, I like Shelley Hirsch, who has 3 or 4 songs on there, but
she's pretty much reciting lyrics about her remembrances of Hunt, and those
tracks were fairly disappointing. Half of the songs are vocal, the rest are
instrumentals, kind of ambient but hard to appreciate in this context.

To put it another way, this may be the Tzadik CD that I most often see
used...

Maybe somebody disagrees but I would save my $$

WY


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Indy Jazz
Date: 09 Jun 2000 20:26:18 EDT

The Indy jazz scene...Not too exciting as I remember it.  I went to undergrad
in Bloomington as a jazz pianist, and I found the scene in Indy to be fairly
nonexistent.  You might find Bloomington more interesting, actually, if
fairly conservative.

-matt mitchell

-



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From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: gunter muller
Date: 10 Jun 2000 06:18:42 GMT

Just read the article in the recent Wire on Muller.  He briefly discussed
reactions to his Victoriaville concert with Jim O'Rourke last year, when
O'Rourke played a G3 computer and Muller a minidisk player and what this all
meant in terms of improvisation and the performative because there was
basically nothing to see.

I was curious about his contribution to the Filament 2 release, since I've
now heard the "extreme" minimalism of Filament 1.  And also is there any
comparison between the two?

NP:  Schizotrope/Richard Pinhas & Maurice Dantec Schizospheric Experience
(electronic washes with guitar and readings in French from the texts of
Gilles Deleuze

"Every work of art is an uncommitted crime."
"We can tell whether we are happy by the sound of the wind.  It warns the
unhappy man of the fragility of his house, hounding him from shallow sleep
and violent dreams.  To the happy man it is the song of his protectedness:
its furious howling concedes that it has power over him no
longer."------Theodor Adorno

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



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From:   Sickness <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: freejazz
Date: 10 Jun 2000 10:12:49 +0200


--------------3A7173933BEDC66E77463D28
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



[e-mail] wrote:

> I've heard quite a number of good things about european free jazz, and
> i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.
> Evan Parker, Peter brotzmann, derek bailey, etc. seem to be names that come
> up often. Paul Rutherford's "the gentle harm of the bourgeoisie" is also
> supposedly very good.

I think you should visit European Free Improvisatio Pages at the address:

 www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/

It's an excellent source of information about many European jazz artists.


S&S

--------------3A7173933BEDC66E77463D28
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<p><tt>[e-mail] wrote:</tt>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><tt>I've heard quite a number of good things about
european free jazz, and</tt>
<br><tt>i would appreciate it if someone could push me in the right direction.</tt>
<br><tt>Evan Parker, Peter brotzmann, derek bailey, etc. seem to be names
that come</tt>
<br><tt>up often. Paul Rutherford's "the gentle harm of the bourgeoisie"
is also</tt>
<br><tt>supposedly very good.</tt></blockquote>

<p><br><tt>I think you should visit European Free Improvisatio Pages at
the address:</tt>
<p><tt> <a href="http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/">www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/</a></tt>
<p><tt>It's an excellent source of information about many European jazz
artists.</tt>
<br>
<p><tt>S&S</tt></html>

--------------3A7173933BEDC66E77463D28--


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 10 Jun 2000 04:28:40 EDT


In a message dated 6/10/00 2:20:12 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Just read the article in the recent Wire on Muller.  He briefly discussed=
=20
reactions to his Victoriaville concert with Jim O'Rourke last year, when=20
O'Rourke played a G3 computer and Muller a minidisk player and what this all=
=20
meant in terms of improvisation and the performative because there was=20
basically nothing to see. >>

one interesting element of the 24 hour MIMEO show was that the musicians wer=
e=20
seated around the outside of four tables which formed a square, and people=20
could walk around and sit right behind them and watch what they were doing.=20
so even though it wasn't necessarily much more animated than many=20
electroacoustic improv shows, the audence had a much better sense of being=20
involved. of course, this is much harder to do at a duo or trio show.

<<I was curious about his contribution to the Filament 2 release, since I've=
=20
now heard the "extreme" minimalism of Filament 1.  And also is there any=20
comparison between the two?>>

Filament 2 is a much superior record. F1 documents Otomo (and Sachiko) when=20
he's just beginning to work with sine-wave electronics after having been=20
inspired by Ikeda, and quite honestly, he's not very good at them yet. I=20
recall the record as sounding very lifeless, like an academic exercise. F2,=20
recorded just a few months later, is much more varied and interesting, which=
=20
I chalk up partly to M=FCller's involvement and partly to Otomo and Sachiko'=
s=20
becoming increasingly familiar with this style. there's evidently a Filament=
=20
3 in the works for Sachiko's Amoebic label, although I'm not sure of the=20
personnel.

by the way, I believe that the duo CD which I'll be releasing (hopefully in=20
August or September) of M=FCller and L=EA Quan Ninh is M=FCller's best work=20=
yet. he=20
seizes a much more up-front and prominent role on this record than I've ever=
=20
heard him take before. I'm pretty excited about it, needless to say.=20

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 10 Jun 2000 12:18:10 +0200 (CEST)

 >I was just stating it as a fact. it was actually a real shame that the
>concert wasn't better attended, which was at least partially due to it being
>scheduled from Tuesday afternoon through Wednesday afternoon. but the fact
>that stretches of it seemed almost like a private command performance was
>kind of cool in a way, yes, especially since I believe it was a historic
>event.

>Jon

Yes it was a pity that there were not more people at this "big event".
But there is another explanation. People who go to the Vandoeuvre festival
come from other cities in France, sometimes from far away, and some from
NYC :-)
And this year, most of people could come only after thursday (because these
days were special holiday period in France). The organizer explained to me
that he would have preferred to schedule this "concert" later in the same
week, so there would have been more attendance, but it was not possible.
Myself, I desesperately couldn't come before and I could only attend the
last three hours of Mimeo. But these three hours were a very very great
experiment : 11 crazy guys and girl playing their incredible machines.

BTW, other concerts were very good at this same festival :
Konk Pack (Tim Hodgkinson, Thomas Lehn, Roger Turner)
Bloc Moteur (Xavier Charles, Frederic Le Junter, Martin Tetreault, Pierre
Berthet, Jerome Jeanmart)
Trio Lid (Laurent Dailleau, Isabelle Duthoit, David Chiesa)
Maxwells Damon (Ulrich Phillipp, Uwe Buhrdorf, Ulrich Bottcher)
Sophie Agnel-Phil Minton duo
Eugene Chadbourne-Paul Lovens duo
Miseres et cordes (Camel Zekri-Pascal Battus-Emmanuel Petit-Dominique Repecaud)
Zack Settel
Sophie Agnel, Frederic Blondy, Le Quan Ninh, Paul Lovens
Urs Leimgruber, Jacques Demierre, Barre Phillips

It was the 17th edition of this festival.

Jacques Oger





-



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From: Hywel Davies <[e-mail]>
Subject: Puschnig?
Date: 10 Jun 2000 06:04:14 -0700 (PDT)

I heard a quartet track on the radio recently which
consisted of Wolfgang Puschnig, Herbert Joos, plus
bass and drums; the reception was too poor to hear the
details - any idea which cd this might have been
from?!
thanks for any help...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 10 Jun 2000 10:07:44 -0400

Bill Ashline wrote:
>
> Just read the article in the recent Wire on Muller.  He briefly discussed
> reactions to his Victoriaville concert with Jim O'Rourke last year, when
> O'Rourke played a G3 computer and Muller a minidisk player and what this all
> meant in terms of improvisation and the performative because there was
> basically nothing to see.

The "nothing to see" aspect of much electro-improv is a decided turn-off
to a sizeable portion of concert goers, as was evidenced by the reaction
of some writers at Victo last year, including towards the performance
you cite. A desire for what Braxton once termed "the sweat factor" is,
not surprisingly, still fairly pervasive.

Without wanting to sound too perjorative about it, I can't help but
think of this attitude as immature. While many artists certainly take
advantage of visual aspects, and go through the requisite calisthetics,
one would hope it all comes down to the music in the end (and when
you're dealing with someone like O'Rourke, whose visual interest level
is, to put it bluntly, minimal (;-)), why on earth should it matter?) If
anything, it should serve as a welcome wake-up call for those drawn to
the music from rock, where image is all.

I recall hearing of the Public Image concert where the group played
behing scrims for the entire show, causing a near riot among the fans.
After all, you have to SEE the group, right? You have to take home
memories (if not photos and tapes!) of what people looked like, not just
something as ephemeral as music...

Dolphy's statement carries much weight.

Brian Olewnick

-



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From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 10 Jun 2000 07:14:12 -0700

http://206.24.127.9/qManage/questionView.cfm?queID=2233



-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 10 Jun 2000 10:21:25 EDT

hi, Jacques. long time no see. :)

you said:

<<Yes it was a pity that there were not more people at this "big event".
But there is another explanation. People who go to the Vandoeuvre festival
come from other cities in France, sometimes from far away, and some from
NYC :-)
And this year, most of people could come only after thursday (because these
days were special holiday period in France). The organizer explained to me
that he would have preferred to schedule this "concert" later in the same
week, so there would have been more attendance, but it was not possible.>>

yeah, for one thing, Gert-Jan Prins had to leave right after the show and
drive back to Holland. I wasn't criticizing fans for not attending, I just
thought it was unfortunate that more people didn't see it, for whatever
reason. on the other hand, there were way more people at the Bloc Moteur
show, later that Wednesday night, then were present at any time during the
MIMEO set, so maybe I am criticizing, at least a bit.

<<BTW, other concerts were very good at this same festival>>

I'd have to disagree, at least in my opinion. I saw about five other shows,
and didn't see any I thought were really successful. I will chalk part of my
reaction up to being a jaded New Yorker, and another part to my brain being
saturated with 24 hours of music already, but I was personally disappointed
by the rest of the shows I saw.

<<Konk Pack (Tim Hodgkinson, Thomas Lehn, Roger Turner)>>

I'm one of the world's larger Lehn fans, but this is not one of my favorite
projects of his. Turner and Hodgkinson go full speed ahead, leaving him no
space, and when he tries to change synth patches, Turner laughed at him
because he was left behind. I enjoyed virtually all of Lehn's work during the
MIMEO show more than I did this set, although that being said, it was
probably the best thing I saw in Nancy after MIMEO.

<<Bloc Moteur (Xavier Charles, Frederic Le Junter, Martin Tetreault, Pierre
Berthet, Jerome Jeanmart)>>

this wasn't bad, a lot of complicated homemade mechanical instruments, but as
Tom Pratt whispered to me, "doesn't it seem like they could make the same
sounds with a lot less work?". plus, Tetreault was kind of hidden in the
back, so I couldn't really see him.

<<Eugene Chadbourne-Paul Lovens duo>>

I liked this way less than I did their duo at Victo a few years ago. in that
show, they played mostly freely, occasionally transitioning into Chadbourne
singing an Ernest Tubb tune or some other country song. the songs were very
infrequent, so when they came, they were a nice change of pace, but at this
show, it was almost all songs, very little improv in between. too long, and a
bit annoying, I thought.

<<Zack Settel>>

are you serious? this was one of the most amateurish displays I've ever seen.
Settel is from Montreal, and he has some sort of software where he can
process the music of his collaborators live. based on the evidence of this
show, it's extremely primitive, and has about two different things he can do
with it. the real shame was that this was the only one of Le Quan Ninh's
concerts that I could make it to, and it was pretty much ruined by Settel.
plus, the only other time I've seen Ninh perform live, at Victo last year, he
also played with Settel, who was much better during the Victo set, so anyone
who saw that one can empathize with me. a musician friend of mine, who will
remain nameless, and who was very unhappy with his project in this festival,
leaned over to me during the Settel set and said "at least my project isn't
the worst thing here this week".

those were the only ones I saw of the ones you mentioned. the show you didn't
mention, which I enjoyed to some extent, was the string quintet with Phil
Durrant, Rhodri Davies, Ulrich Phillipp, Jurgen Krusche and Martine
Altenburger. it was this band's first meeting as a quintet, and Durrant and
Davies (the harpist from Simon Fell's IST trio) were superb, as was Phillipp.
Krusche was OK, but Altenburger ruined a lot of the set for me. at least
three or four times, the other four would all stop together, and she would
still be going. she wasn't listening to them at all, and after a while she
even started to play louder then the others.

but I enjoyed the MIMEO show as much, if not more, than any show I've seen in
my life.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Looking for:  Nitsch, Rev Frizzell
Date: 10 Jun 2000 11:49:13 -0400

Hi,  I goofed around and didn't buy these CDs, now can't find them.  Anybody know a store that has copies left?  Maybe it's time for a third job just for a music budget.

Hermann Nitsch "Island Sinfonie" (the four-CD one)

Rev. Dwight Frizzell & Anal Magic - first CD

Red Krayola - Kangaroo?  (CD)

Thanks, LT

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From: "J.A.Bueno" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Glenn Horiuchi dead
Date: 10 Jun 2000 19:59:02 -0300


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Can anybody confirm this bad news



> I just heard that pianist Glenn Horiuchi died a week ago. Cancer.
> Don't know the details or his age; probably mid-40s. Maybe someone on
> the list knows more or read an obit.

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Can anybody confirm this bad news
<br>
<br>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>I
just heard that pianist Glenn Horiuchi died a week ago. Cancer. Don't know
the details or his age; probably mid-40s. Maybe someone on the list knows
more or read an obit.</font></font></blockquote>

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From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 11 Jun 2000 00:17:00 GMT

Brian Olewnick wrote:

>The "nothing to see" aspect of much electro-improv is a decided turn-off
>to a sizeable portion of concert goers, as was evidenced by the reaction
>of some writers at Victo last year, including towards the performance
>you cite. A desire for what Braxton once termed "the sweat factor" is,
>not surprisingly, still fairly pervasive.
>
>Without wanting to sound too perjorative about it, I can't help but
>think of this attitude as immature.

It sounds like there might even be a shift in paradigms in terms of the
performative, and the audience has yet to catch up.  Of course, the
performance takes place in real time and involves improvisation, perhaps, to
a greater or lesser degree, and certain materials used are prepared far in
advance, etc.  But the "experience" of the performance could take place with
the performers working in another room and not visible to the audience,
since such visibility adds little perhaps to the experience.  Instead of the
live performance as such, we might have the voyeurism of watching people
work in a "studio."  And what Jon Abbey describes about MIMEO suggests the
removal of the "stage" aspect as well.  Muller concludes his discussion by
saying that "everybody going to a concert has to supply their own answer" to
the question of priority in the performative.

JonAbbey2 wrote:
>Filament 2 is a much superior record. F1 documents Otomo (and Sachiko) when
>he's just beginning to work with sine-wave electronics after having been
>inspired by Ikeda, and quite honestly, he's not very good at them yet. I
>recall the record as sounding very lifeless, like an academic exercise. F2,
>recorded just a few months later, is much more varied and interesting,
>which
>I chalk up partly to Mⁿller's involvement and partly to Otomo and Sachiko's
>becoming increasingly familiar with this style.

This is good to know.  My sense about the first filament was that it was
trying question the entire concept of music altogether and taking a line of
flight away from all kinds of musical language.  Perhaps this is what I read
in the Extreme blurbs.

>by the way, I believe that the duo CD which I'll be releasing (hopefully in
>August or September) of Mⁿller and LΩ Quan Ninh is Mⁿller's best work yet.
>he
>seizes a much more up-front and prominent role on this record than I've
>ever
>heard him take before. I'm pretty excited about it, needless to say.

I look forward to getting the release.  Please keep us posted as to when it
becomes available.

Regards

"Every work of art is an uncommitted crime."
"We can tell whether we are happy by the sound of the wind.  It warns the
unhappy man of the fragility of his house, hounding him from shallow sleep
and violent dreams.  To the happy man it is the song of his protectedness:
its furious howling concedes that it has power over him no
longer."------Theodor Adorno

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 11 Jun 2000 00:24:48 GMT

I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G.  If one wants to preserve
categories, the best thing to do is to call him "pop" and leave it at that.
Kenny G is very popular with the Asian kids I've talked to.  The simplicity
of the music jives with their worldview.  I let it go and hope that they'll
grow out of it.


>From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
>
>http://206.24.127.9/qManage/questionView.cfm?queID=2233
>
>
>
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
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From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: free jazz
Date: 10 Jun 2000 20:46:20 EDT

I agree that AMM is a must, an excellent but expensive overview would be
Laminal, a 3 CD set covering three periods in the development of the band.
However, I think they are only marginally "free jazz."  Improvised music is
more like it, as they are about as far from the implied Coltrane, Coleman,
Taylor sphere as they could possibly be.  Another British group that has not
been mentioned is Mujician.  Again, more improvised than free, their four
CDs on Cunieform are essential listening for anyone interested in this type
of music.  Consisting of Keith Tippett on piano, Paul Dunmall reeds, Tony
Levin drums, and Paul Rogers bass, each is also a leader on his own.  The
recordings are all from live performances which are spontaneously composed.
Perhaps more traditional than the abstract AMM, they are nonetheless every
bit as challenging.  Sadly, there are only four recordings over a period of
about ten years.  Tippett, Dunmall, and Rogers make use of their bandmates
on their solo recordings, which are also not to be missed.  Visit the
Europena Improvisors site for more info.

Alan E. Kayser
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 10 Jun 2000 21:17:36 EDT


In a message dated 6/10/00 8:17:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< My sense about the first filament was that it was
trying question the entire concept of music altogether and taking a line of
flight away from all kinds of musical language. >>

this is actually really interesting, because when Otomo was recently asked to
name the style of music he makes, he referred to it as "un-music".

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Penguin Guide
Date: 11 Jun 2000 01:06:25 -0700

I second the recommendation of the Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD.
By far the most my most useful resource guide. I figure there must be
reviews of 20,000 albums (plus passing mention of more that are out of
print). All by two guys, so there's consistency in the points of view.
Dixie to avant. Lots of little things you might quibble over, but
generally accurate enough that you can find pleasure in those occasions
when you hear things that they missed. As was said by the originally
poster, Euro-free scene is given full and informed commentary. It's
hard for me to imagine a jazz fan who won't discover stuff they want to
hear -- hard, indeed, to imagine how these guys listen to so much music
(although I sometimes think the same about some of you on this list)!

Martin
np: Steve Lacy/Roswell Rudd -- Monk's Dream. Probably the most
delightful CD I've heard this year.

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From: Hywel Davies <[e-mail]>
Subject: For Alto
Date: 11 Jun 2000 04:32:18 -0700 (PDT)

i see (at cdnow) that Braxton's "For Alto" is to be
released on cd; is this a single disc? i don't think
the double album will fit - have tracks been left off?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

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From: "Franz Fuchs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: For Alto
Date: 11 Jun 2000 15:18:12 +0200

> i see (at cdnow) that Braxton's "For Alto" is to be
> released on cd; is this a single disc? i don't think
> the double album will fit - have tracks been left off?

Francesco Martinelli lists in his discography the durations of "For
Alto's" four sides:
18:47/12:46/ 20:14/ 14:48 = appr. 65 minutes
So fortunately there are no abridgements necessary!
I'm so enthusiastic about this release...

Regards
Franz Fuchs


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From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: For Alto
Date: 11 Jun 2000 18:22:46 +0200

BTW: who is releasing it?

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]



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From: "Franz Fuchs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: For Alto
Date: 11 Jun 2000 19:23:59 +0200

> BTW: who is releasing it?

Delmark Records
http://www.delmark.com/

Regards
Franz Fuchs

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From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 11 Jun 2000 12:47:00 -0500

On Sun, Jun 11, 2000, Bill Ashline <[e-mail]> wrote:
>It sounds like there might even be a shift in paradigms in terms of the
>performative, and the audience has yet to catch up.  Of course, the
>performance takes place in real time and involves improvisation, perhaps, to
>a greater or lesser degree, and certain materials used are prepared far in
>advance, etc.  But the "experience" of the performance could take place with
>the performers working in another room and not visible to the audience,
>since such visibility adds little perhaps to the experience.  Instead of the
>live performance as such, we might have the voyeurism of watching people
>work in a "studio."  And what Jon Abbey describes about MIMEO suggests the
>removal of the "stage" aspect as well.  Muller concludes his discussion by
>saying that "everybody going to a concert has to supply their own answer" to
>the question of priority in the performative.

So why is this any different from going to see a 'classical' concert? I
don't think it's so much a shift in paradigms as much as it's an
unfamiliar context for people.

I think the energy of an audience has a lot to do with what a live
performer does, and the performance would have a much different tone to
it were the performers separated from the audience. As much as we may
sometimes think an improv performance depends on the performers, I think
it's equally important to state that it depends on the audience.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | |  http://www.mp3.com/mrd | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com  | | http://www.mp3.com/graycode | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 11 Jun 2000 14:05:46 -0400 (EDT)

Agreed. The collective energy and attetiveness (or lack of same) expressed
by an audience is what usually makes the diffrence between a good and a
great performance.

Braxton's comment about "the sweating brow" was one thing. But taking it
the next step and expect people to watch nearly motionless performers
seemingly  "downloading their e-mail" (as someone once descibed an
electronica performance at FIMAV) seems to defeat the very idea of "live
performance. Most of us would like to see that some sort of thought or
craft goes into creation, and it doesn't have to be a Big-Jay-McNeely-
sweating-while-playing-on-your back to make it so.

The fidelity of recorded performances is better most of the time, so we
attend live performances to *see* that little extra that we can't get
from a recorded document.

Ken Waxman


Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

I think the energy of an audience has a lot to do
with what a live
performer does, and the performance would have a much different tone to
it were the performers separated from the audience. As much as we may
sometimes think an improv performance depends on the performers, I think
it's equally important to state that it depends on the audience.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: audiences? (was gunter mueller)
Date: 11 Jun 2000 12:24:15 -0600


Bill Wrote:
>>And what Jon Abbey describes about MIMEO suggests
>>the removal of the "stage" aspect as well.

I think this is a great idea.  I'd be curious how they pulled it off.
Perhaps a slightly different performance context would ease a paradigm
shift.

Matthew wrote:
>So why is this any different from going to see a 'classical' concert? I
>don't think it's so much a shift in paradigms as much as it's an
>unfamiliar context for people.

Certainly the unsaid social custom of virtual silence on the part of the
audience is exhibited at each but there is a relatively active visual
componant to 'classical' music.  Some audience members like to watch a
conductor or the mechanical exactitude of the Symphonic sections, and they
also teld to enjoy watching people playing their instruments in small
chamber ensembles.  Here again I think we're seeing something in the
audience that is not unlike what we see in rock and jazz audiences, namely,
the desire to SEE evidence of the performer's musicality.  When Jim O'Rourke
plays a laptop these people don't have anything to watch, they have to be
content just listening.
I guess I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

-Matt Wirzbicki

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 11 Jun 2000 13:25:19 -0500

On Sun, Jun 11, 2000, Ken Waxman <[e-mail]> wrote:
>Braxton's comment about "the sweating brow" was one thing. But taking it
>the next step and expect people to watch nearly motionless performers
>seemingly  "downloading their e-mail" (as someone once descibed an
>electronica performance at FIMAV) seems to defeat the very idea of "live
>performance. Most of us would like to see that some sort of thought or
>craft goes into creation, and it doesn't have to be a Big-Jay-McNeely-
>sweating-while-playing-on-your back to make it so.
>
>The fidelity of recorded performances is better most of the time, so we
>attend live performances to *see* that little extra that we can't get
>from a recorded document.

Yes, but with a live performance you're seeing the artists "in the
moment" and living in the music, rather than hearing a recording which
may or may not have been edited and/or done several times until the
performer(s) is satisfied with documenting it.

For me, there's a hightened energy in experiencing live music, regardless
of what the performer is actually doing to create the music.

So my argument is that there's a lot more we can *hear* extra when we
experience it live.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | |  http://www.mp3.com/mrd | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com  | | http://www.mp3.com/graycode | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: audiences? (was gunter mueller)
Date: 11 Jun 2000 13:47:10 -0500

On Sun, Jun 11, 2000, Matthew W Wirzbicki
<[e-mail]> wrote:
>Certainly the unsaid social custom of virtual silence on the part of the
>audience is exhibited at each but there is a relatively active visual
>componant to 'classical' music.  Some audience members like to watch a
>conductor or the mechanical exactitude of the Symphonic sections, and they
>also teld to enjoy watching people playing their instruments in small
>chamber ensembles.  Here again I think we're seeing something in the
>audience that is not unlike what we see in rock and jazz audiences, namely,
>the desire to SEE evidence of the performer's musicality.  When Jim O'Rourke
>plays a laptop these people don't have anything to watch, they have to be
>content just listening.
>I guess I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

Au contraire, you hit it on the head precisely: the expectation of a
performer's outward physical expressiveness is a completely different
context from that of a performer who chooses to focus the energy in a
different, more concentrated fashion. It goes to show that every
performer is different, and experiencing them live brings us closer to
their actual involvement in the music making, whether it be physical or not.

Just one clarification: when I speak of 'classical' concerts, I'm not
just talking about the activity of string players or a chamber ensemble.
The comparison I meant was that of 'classical' electronic composers, who
are often very immobile and focussed on the computer/equipment/etc.

On the other hand, if it doesn't even look like the performers are
*involved* in the performance - i.e. they look bored or something - then
I won't really enjoy it either.

| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | |  http://www.mp3.com/mrd | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com  | | http://www.mp3.com/graycode | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


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From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: audiences? (was gunter mueller)
Date: 11 Jun 2000 22:22:33 GMT




>From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
>
>Just one clarification: when I speak of 'classical' concerts, I'm not
>just talking about the activity of string players or a chamber ensemble.
>The comparison I meant was that of 'classical' electronic composers, who
>are often very immobile and focussed on the computer/equipment/etc.

OK, this is an important clarification, since seeing a classical orchestra
live and seeing an electronic composer live are quite different experiences
in both visual and auditory aspects.  The visual interest of the latter
depends very much on the tools being deployed.  And with the proliferation
of electronic music, a new paradigm needs to be used in regard to the
performative, especially when one of the "performers" is spending the bulk
of the evening observing a screen saver, which was how one "event" was
described to me.  This is what I meant when I said the "studio" replaces the
"live" setting.

>
>On the other hand, if it doesn't even look like the performers are
>*involved* in the performance - i.e. they look bored or something - then
>I won't really enjoy it either.

This is precisely the circumstance I'm referring to, though if one is
playing a minidisc player, one may not be bored but one may not look very
involved.


BA

"...it is a source of great surprise and disappointment to me that after
more than twenty years of music-making on the New York scene...not one
single writer has ever come forward to champion or even to intelligently
analyze exactly what it is that we have been doing.  Indeed, they hardly
seem able even to describe it."--John Zorn
"Improvising musicians create a genuine Deleuzian assemblage, a musical
machine of desire--not binary nor unitary but multiple."--John Corbett

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mujician
Date: 11 Jun 2000 21:48:50 EDT

Alan Kayser wrote:

>Another British group that has not
>been mentioned is Mujician.  Again, more improvised than free, their four
>CDs on Cunieform are essential listening for anyone interested in this
>type
>of music.  Consisting of Keith Tippett on piano, Paul Dunmall reeds, Tony
>Levin drums, and Paul Rogers bass, each is also a leader on his own.  The
>recordings are all from live performances which are spontaneously composed.
>Perhaps more traditional than the abstract AMM, they are nonetheless every
>bit as challenging.  Sadly, there are only four recordings over a period
>of
>about ten years.  Tippett, Dunmall, and Rogers make use of their bandmates
>on their solo recordings, which are also not to be missed.

Alan, that's an interesting take on Mujician, as I *never* would've mentioned
Mujician in the same breath as AMM, as I pretty much think of AMM's as *the*
benchmark of non-idiomatic free-improv, whereas, Mujician have always seemed
to me very much to be a "free jazz" band, building on the work of Ornette &
(esp.) late period Coltrane/Impulse. Even their 1st album "The Journey",
which is their least free-jazz-like, still doesn't remind me very much of the
work of folks like AMM, S.M.E., or other non-jazz improvisers. But, I am glad
you obviously like the music so much.

I feel I should mention that Mujican only have four albums recorded because
they wish to have only four albums recorded. The choice is theirs, and not
due to lack of opportunities from us or other "outside" reasons.

Steve/
Cuneiform Records

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mujician
Date: 11 Jun 2000 21:55:11 -0400

On Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 09:48:50PM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

> Alan, that's an interesting take on Mujician, as I *never* would've mentioned
> Mujician in the same breath as AMM, as I pretty much think of AMM's as *the*
> benchmark of non-idiomatic free-improv, whereas, Mujician have always seemed
> to me very much to be a "free jazz" band, building on the work of Ornette &
> (esp.) late period Coltrane/Impulse. Even their 1st album "The Journey",
> which is their least free-jazz-like, still doesn't remind me very much of the
> work of folks like AMM, S.M.E., or other non-jazz improvisers. But, I am glad
> you obviously like the music so much.

I find the term "non-idiomatic free-improv" curious. Would anyone doubt
that the style of improvisation developed by AMM, Derek Bailey, et al
over the past 30-some years is by now a pretty clearly identifiable
idiom?

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 12 Jun 2000 12:14:47 +0200 (CEST)

Jon Abbey said:

><<Zack Settel>>
>
>are you serious? this was one of the most amateurish displays I've ever seen.
>Settel is from Montreal, and he has some sort of software where he can
>process the music of his collaborators live. based on the evidence of this
>show, it's extremely primitive, and has about two different things he can do
>with it. the real shame was that this was the only one of Le Quan Ninh's
>concerts that I could make it to, and it was pretty much ruined by Settel.
>plus, the only other time I've seen Ninh perform live, at Victo last year, he
>also played with Settel, who was much better during the Victo set, so anyone
>who saw that one can empathize with me. a musician friend of mine, who will
>remain nameless, and who was very unhappy with his project in this festival,
>leaned over to me during the Settel set and said "at least my project isn't
>the worst thing here this week".


Hi Jon,

I know that many people don't/didn't like Zack Settel. And it's a long time
since I stopped to wonder if I am serious or not :-)
I don't know exactly what Zack Settel does now. (I just know he was
recently in Africa).
I saw him some years ago in a very good french group called "Kinobits" and
he was doing some very good stuff.
In Vandoeuvre, this year, I liked what he made. I agree with you that he is
probably not creating a new kind/trend of music. And his live process
treatment seems old style.
But, nevertheless, in that festival, I liked the 1st piece played on the
bass, and the 2nd one on the voice.
Maybe because the complete lack of ego gave to this (their) performance a
kind of freedom which is, after all, not so frequent. That's why I liked
their show, for extra musical reasons, I agree, but sometimes human factors
are important too.
And I agree with you that there were other better concerts than this one
(my list was not by order of importance, but by chronological order, and I
omitted some other good concerts).

More important, about this festival: I think Vandoeuvre Musique Action is
one of the greatest event in Europe and maybe in the world. Don't call me a
chauvinist :-)
In fact, it would be very difficult to find musicians who have never played
in Vandoeuvre in the last past years.
But, even in that case, some concerts are not always meeting our
expectations, (human factors ?) For instance the Quatuor Helios show, (a
group where Le Quan Ninh plays), was not good. I couldn't believe it! They
are some of my favorite musicians! I would strongly recommend to listen to
their last CD (on the Vandoeuvre label). I think it is possible to buy it
on the Verge website.

I agree with your comments on the string quintet with Phil Durrant, Rhodri
Davies, Ulrich Phillipp, Jurgen Krusche and Martine Altenburger.

There was another good concert with Axel Dorner (I could'nt attend it). But
I was told he played very well. I saw him twice the week before in Paris.
One night playing modern jazz (yes indeed!), Charlie Haden's compositions
and this kind of stuff, with a japonese bassist and a german bass
clarinettist. The night after in a very great duo with bassist Ulrich
Phillip.

To finish with Vandoeuvre, apart from Mimeo, one of my favorite group this
year was: Maxwells Damon (Ulrich Phillipp, Uwe Buhrdorf, Ulrich Bottcher)

Jacques Oger

NP: incredible stuff by Phillip Corner ("The judson days" recorded during
the 60's) on the Alga Marghen italian label.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Simon Hopkins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 12 Jun 2000 10:35:50 +0000

>I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G.

Bill, that's a disappointing response to the piece.

I actually think it's one of the finer pieces of intelligent invective I've
read in some time, and it's got my week off to a great start!

But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's
posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the
guitarist's own world view, being an impassioned commentary on, among other
things... the general impoverishment of mainstream culture... the
importance of musicians' respect for their inheritance... the role of
(linguistic) dialogue *at all* in music... the disappointing lack of
attention (from allegedly serious music critics) to things that really *do*
matter... and the fact that the ultimate commentary on music is more music.

This last point is VITAL and very reminiscent of Zorn's introduction to
'Arcana' (and, sadly, of very little else written of late). Check out these
statements he makes:

"...but, for what it╣s worth, i can safely say that i personally have never
read anything, good or bad, from anyone anywhere that has had any impact
whatsoever on the actual musical issues that involve my most every waking
minute..."

"...so, anyway, the real job for me and other musicians out there that are
trying to find the good notes, in fact, has nothing to do with talking, or
with opinions; the real challenge is to try to make music that is the
antidote to the disease, a symptom of which *might* be under discussion
here..."

That's a point Zorn has made over and over. Consider Cinema. Godard,
Truffaut and the other 'Cahiers du Cinema' critics intrinsically understood
that if you want to discuss film seriously, the only way to do it is to
maks other films. Ultimately, everything else is journalism.

So I was very impressed with Metheny's thoughts. They confirmed a long-held
suspicion on my part that he's a much more serious musical thinker than
many give him credit for.

Simon

simon hopkins
a   state51  rhoda street  london e2 7ef
t   00 44 (0)171 729 8493

sh is a member of the state51 conspiracy

check out motion
http://motion.state51.co.uk



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 12 Jun 2000 06:58:28 -0700

>>>But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's
posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the
guitarist's own world view<<<

Exactly. That is why I titled the post to the link, 'Pat Metheny's
Aesthetic.' He is angry for very specific reasons based on his aesthetic.
And, he is not ashamed to put his opinions out there with some passion. AND,
he  creates music, thus is not writing ivory tower opinions about it. I was
very impressed, and I can't stand his music.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 12 Jun 2000 14:28:30 GMT




>From: Simon Hopkins
>
> >I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G.
>
>Bill, that's a disappointing response to the piece.

Sorry to disappoint you Simon.

>
>I actually think it's one of the finer pieces of intelligent invective I've
>read in some time, and it's got my week off to a great start!

I'm glad it did.  But for me it was the usual sort of criticism one hears
about KG and his ilk, which, though, obviously true, is too facile.  Too
easy a target.  I've got a fair bit of Metheny on my shelves.  Some of this
kind of criticism could be sent his way too.

>
>But beyond the impressive anger, what's interesting is that Metheny's
>posting is barely about Kenny 'the necrophile' G at all but about the
>guitarist's own world view, being an impassioned commentary on, among other
>things... the general impoverishment of mainstream culture... the
>importance of musicians' respect for their inheritance... the role of
>(linguistic) dialogue *at all* in music... the disappointing lack of
>attention (from allegedly serious music critics) to things that really *do*
>matter... and the fact that the ultimate commentary on music is more music.

This is all good, but also fairly predictable.  I'm glad to see Metheny
articulating these positions.  But if we're going to understand the
impoverishment of mainstream culture, we're going to need more than music to
help us, and that's where dialogue/writing as a preliminary to action will
be necessary.  Some of Metheny's comments about musical inheritance sounded
a bit too romantic, religious and snobby for my taste, just as the invective
sort of rang like a parliamentary hearing.


>This last point is VITAL and very reminiscent of Zorn's introduction to
>'Arcana' (and, sadly, of very little else written of late). Check out these
>statements he makes:
>
>"...but, for what it╣s worth, i can safely say that i personally have never
>read anything, good or bad, from anyone anywhere that has had any impact
>whatsoever on the actual musical issues that involve my most every waking
>minute..."

I wonder what he's read.  You know I'm sure the Mille Plateaux crew in
Germany might have a very different take on this matter.  Though I'm sure
that for him this matter is true.


>"...so, anyway, the real job for me and other musicians out there that are
>trying to find the good notes, in fact, has nothing to do with talking, or
>with opinions; the real challenge is to try to make music that is the
>antidote to the disease, a symptom of which *might* be under discussion
>here..."

Interesting idea.  Music as the positive source of affective transformation.
  I think the idea is very true.  One recalls one's experiences in music and
one considers the manner in which their reception/understanding of culture
and society is transformed.  It can happen in music and it can happen in
other places as well.


>That's a point Zorn has made over and over. Consider Cinema. Godard,
>Truffaut and the other 'Cahiers du Cinema' critics intrinsically understood
>that if you want to discuss film seriously, the only way to do it is to
>maks other films. Ultimately, everything else is journalism.

Hmm.  Perhaps Zorn is no longer satisfied with this approach, which is why
he put out the book.  One can argue that discourse about the arts is in some
ways inauthentic in comparison to the real, etc.  In literary studies, you
know, some writers like to say that critics are parasitical on their work.
We always respond that they're parasitical on our attention spans.  The
whole thing I think works on exchange.  Musicians, artists, writers, etc.
need audiences and apparently we need them as well.  But none of us can live
very well without intellectual life either, I'm afraid.  A lot of our ideas
about culture, even if they're ideas that reject the idea that ideas about
culture are important, still have a theoretical history, if one bothers to
spend the time looking.  As far as film goes, there's a lot that's been
written that's been quite significant and that I wouldn't reduce to
journalism.  And it's good to see that filmmakers like Trinh T. Minh-ha are
keeping up with the literature and engaging it and not trying to take a
purist stance about art.  And regarding art, it needn't be said how much
recent intellectual developments are impacting the production of art works
and how seminal and positive that interaction can be.

Zorn of course reads a lot of theoretical stuff as well, as a number of the
better musicians have.  I particularly liked his reference to Artaud's take
on Van Gogh in the introduction as well, when describing the condition of
the modern musician.  But I think the Arcana book though is a bit too
idiosyncratic to do much good.  Some of the material is strong; much of it
fits poorly with the rest.  Stephen Drury's essay isn't bad but his basic
theses are fairly naive.

BTW, I like the Motion reviews and read them frequently.  I find them
"affirmative."

BA

"...it is a source of great surprise and disappointment to me that after
more than twenty years of music-making on the New York scene...not one
single writer has ever come forward to champion or even to intelligently
analyze exactly what it is that we have been doing.  Indeed, they hardly
seem able even to describe it."--John Zorn
"Improvising musicians create a genuine Deleuzian assemblage, a musical
machine of desire--not binary nor unitary but multiple."--John Corbett

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Indian music (no zorn content)
Date: 12 Jun 2000 10:44:53 CDT

I have heard quite a few tracks from it and though i haven't seen the book
i'm buying it this week. if you put some time into it, the box set should
help you be able to gain a better feel for what the differences are between
different ragas.  i can now identify some of them by ear with the
introductory scale. i highly recommend it. it might seem boring at first but
if you buy it in interest of studying indian music it will be highly
beneficial, and probably serve to unlock a lot of things about the music to
you, making the music in general a lot less boring.
  i think it's a very rewarding box.
     -samuel


I was thinking about buying the recent cd box set "The Raga Guide" and am
wondering if any listers have any exposure to it.

I am concerned that four discs of the same artists playing short ragas
without the usual extented performances would be boring.  I'm a fan of
indian raga, but don't know my tala from my alapa, so I'm interested in the
book.  But how is the listening for a semi-experienced Indian classical
listener?




________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture)
Date: 12 Jun 2000 10:52:43 CDT

The recent short thread on the sound-design and installation exhibit in
London (?), along with the State51 coverage, reminded me of this book, which
I have not read.  Perhaps it would be of interest to some of you.  If
anyone's read it, feedback would be appreciated.  (No pun intended.)  The
link leads to a Table of Contents:

http://mitpress.mit.edu/book-home.tcl?isbn=0262112434


Noise, Water, Meat

A History of Voice, Sound, and Aurality in the Arts

by Douglas Kahn


"The dual task here is to listen through history to sound and through sound
to history."

This interdisciplinary history and theory of sound in the arts reads the
twentieth century by listening to it--to the emphatic and exceptional sounds
of modernism and those on the cusp of postmodernism, recorded sound, noise,
silence, the fluid sounds of immersion and dripping, and the meat voices of
viruses, screams, and bestial cries. Focusing on Europe in the first half of
the century and the United States in the postwar years, Douglas Kahn
explores aural activities in literature, music, visual arts, theater, and
film. Placing aurality at the center of the history of the arts, he revisits
key artistic questions, listening to the sounds that drown out the politics
and poetics that generated them. Artists discussed include Antonin Artaud,
George Brecht, William Burroughs, John Cage, Sergei Eisenstein, Fluxus,
Allan Kaprow, Michael McClure, Yoko Ono, Jackson Pollock, Luigi Russolo, and
Dziga Vertov.







________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Noise, Water, Meat (sound sculpture)
Date: 12 Jun 2000 12:04:05 -0400

>   If anyone's read it, feedback would be appreciated.  (No pun


I'm about a quarter of the way into it and have been disappointed so far but I suspect that there's just too much introductory blather (& standard-issue acadmic prose) since it's already started to improve now that he's covering more factual/historical material.  I'll post a review on my site eventually.

LT

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: non-idio
Date: 12 Jun 2000 12:45:08 EDT

>I find the term "non-idiomatic free-improv" curious. Would anyone doubt
>that the style of improvisation developed by AMM, Derek Bailey, et al
>over the past 30-some years is by now a pretty clearly identifiable
>idiom?

I absolutely agree with this.
But I call it that sometimes to differentiate it from "free jazz", which I
think has a very different sound/style.

If you have a better suggestion for what to call it, I'd be very happy to
hear it!

Steve

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 12 Jun 2000 12:30:46 -0600

Jacques Oger wrote concerning Zach Settel:

>his live process
>treatment seems old style.
>But, nevertheless, in that festival, I liked the 1st piece played on the
>bass, and the 2nd one on the voice.
>Maybe because the complete lack of ego gave to this (their) performance
>a kind of freedom which is, after all, not so frequent. That's why I liked
>their show, for extra musical reasons, I agree, but sometimes human
>factors
>are important too.

Lack of ego was extra-musical, "human" factor?  I'm confused.

-Matt Wirzbicki


Jacques Oger



-

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gunter muller
Date: 12 Jun 2000 13:07:01 -0700


On Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:25:19 -0500  Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> Yes, but with a live performance you're seeing the artists "in the
> moment" and living in the music, rather than hearing a recording which
> may or may not have been edited and/or done several times until the
> performer(s) is satisfied with documenting it.

Bernhard Gunther being the extreme in the "no-sweat" direction since
during his show, he only played his records (some being not available)
and as you know, he is not really a DJ...

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 12 Jun 2000 18:53:17 EDT


In a message dated 6/12/00 6:16:56 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< one of my favorite group this
year was: Maxwells Damon (Ulrich Phillipp, Uwe Buhrdorf, Ulrich Bottcher) >>

I left the morning before this show, unfortunately. did they play acoustic
instruments only, as listed in the program, or electronics also, as on their
1996 record Nefastismaschine (Hybrid)?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 12 Jun 2000 16:15:08 -0700


On Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:21:25 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> <<Konk Pack (Tim Hodgkinson, Thomas Lehn, Roger Turner)>>
>
> I'm one of the world's larger Lehn fans, but this is not one of my favorite
> projects of his. Turner and Hodgkinson go full speed ahead, leaving him no
> space, and when he tries to change synth patches, Turner laughed at him
> because he was left behind. I enjoyed virtually all of Lehn's work during the
> MIMEO show more than I did this set, although that being said, it was
> probably the best thing I saw in Nancy after MIMEO.

That was not the case at all with their show in Victoriaville. I felt that
the performance was perfectly balanced between the three players. Lehn was
all over the place as much as Tim or Roger.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: zornies for pho?
Date: 12 Jun 2000 16:25:42 -0700

I'm sure all the selfrespecting zornlisters on the west coast will be at
the Great American Music Hall next Tuesday. Who all wants to meet up for
food and drink beforehand? Mike Rizzi, that means you. As a stone freak
for Vietnamese food, I should mention that Larkin St. (aka Pho Avenue)
is right around the corner from the venue.

Wm. Crump


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Comments (Johnson/Walrath)
Date: 13 Jun 2000 15:09:06 +1000

I am curious about these 2 CDs, can anyone offer comments?

The first is Marc Johnson's second release with Frisell and Scofield (I
believe it is called "Second Sight"). And the second is by trumpet player
Jack Walrath, I am unsure of the title, but there is a Mingus tune on there
and the word "Hang" is in the title...

Thanks,
Julian.
http://www.hartingdale.com.au/~jcurwin

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 12 Jun 2000 22:23:11 -0700

> >I think Metheny wastes too many words on Kenny G. < <


You say you want some more? Well here's some more:

http://www.patmethenygroup.com/af/index-qna.html

Click on 'Kenny G and Cultural Aggression' and 'The response to the
response.'

Kenny G provides wonderful fodder in any discussion of the hierarchial
nature of aesthetics. It puts the heat on the populists.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pat Metheny's Aesthetic
Date: 13 Jun 2000 09:02:05 GMT




>From: "s~Z"
>
>You say you want some more? Well here's some more:
>
>Kenny G provides wonderful fodder in any discussion of the hierarchial
>nature of aesthetics. It puts the heat on the populists.

Yup, burning up over here....

Kenny G isn't "bad."  He's absolutely boring, which is far worse.

"it is a little alarming to me to see that my little rant on this topic
seems to have generated such a relatively huge response. it makes me feel
that in this day and age, even within the ôjazz communityö, controversy,
especially PUBLIC controversy, has the chance to ôwinö over musical
substance, even in terms of what gets discussed - people seem to absolutely
love it."--Pat Metheny

Well said Pat.  Let's move on to another topic then and put this matter to
bed where it belongs.

I think Joseph Zitt has a blurb at the bottom of his messages from Duchamp
which says something like, "the only thing that isn't art is inattention,"
which is precisely the response one should have toward Kenny G.  Incredulity
followed by silence...and lots of inattention.



BA

"...it is a source of great surprise and disappointment to me that after
more than twenty years of music-making on the New York scene...not one
single writer has ever come forward to champion or even to intelligently
analyze exactly what it is that we have been doing.  Indeed, they hardly
seem able even to describe it."--John Zorn
"Improvising musicians create a genuine Deleuzian assemblage, a musical
machine of desire--not binary nor unitary but multiple."--John Corbett

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Alan Licht recommendations (no Zorn content)
Date: 13 Jun 2000 21:30:47 +0400

    Good day!

    Can anybody please recommend an Alan Licht record.
I've never heard anything by him.
My ordering catalog lists these CDs:

- Gerry Miles w/ Keiji Haino
- Rabbi Sky
- Two Nights w/ Loren Mazzacane Connors

I would be happy to know any thoughts/info on these records.
Also it would be great to know your opinion on Alan Licht related projects
(not under his name).

    Thanks in advance

    Edward.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Edward Lutiy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: E.A.R. (on Atavistic) questions (no Zorn content)
Date: 13 Jun 2000 21:31:13 +0400

    Good day!

    Sorry for no-Zorn-content message but I need your help very much.
Have anybody heard the record "E.A.R. - Experimental Audio Research"
on Atavistic? As far as I know Eddie Prevost plays on this record
(and I like his work with AMM and solo on "Loci Of Change" very much)
but I know nothing about the other guys that appear on the record.
So the questions are:
- does Eddie play on all the tracks (or only on part of the album) ?
- does he play percussion ?
- is this CD worth buying just for Eddie ?
- is this music close to AMM ? (What the music is like, anyway ?)
Also I'd like to know your personal opinion about the record.

    Thanks in advance

    Edward.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: E.A.R. (on Atavistic) questions (no Zorn content)
Date: 13 Jun 2000 13:40:14 EDT

<<Have anybody heard the record "E.A.R. - Experimental Audio Research"
on Atavistic?>>

yes.

<<So the questions are:
- does Eddie play on all the tracks (or only on part of the album) ?
- does he play percussion ?
- is this CD worth buying just for Eddie ?
- is this music close to AMM ? (What the music is like, anyway ?)>>

definitely don't buy this for Prevost. I believe the consensus when it came
out was that he's not even really on it. and it's not like AMM at all; it's
aimless noodly guitar-based textural soundscapes, created primarily by Sonic
Boom (formerly of the Spacemen 3).

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Alan Licht recommendations (no Zorn content)
Date: 13 Jun 2000 16:07:22 -0500

At 09:30 PM 6/13/00 +0400, you wrote:
>    Can anybody please recommend an Alan Licht record.
>I've never heard anything by him.
>My ordering catalog lists these CDs:
>
>- Gerry Miles w/ Keiji Haino

Great disc, with Haino doing mostly percussion and vocals, no guitar.
Licht plays organ for the most part with other people on various woodwinds.


>- Rabbi Sky

More noisy, less melodic than Gerry Miles - haven't listened to it a whole
lot.


>- Two Nights w/ Loren Mazzacane Connors

Probably my favorite of the three you've listed.  The two of them play off
of each other rather well.  If you like Connors, you'll like this disc.

Another one to look for would be his release "The Evan Dando of Noise?",
which has a collection of various styles and moods on it.  Also his other
two collaborations with Connors are very good as well.





Craig M. Rath
H: [e-mail]
W: [e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: susana baca (and a "p.s." for all you heavy metal fans)
Date: 15 Jun 2000 16:10:59 +0200

hi there.

a while ago somebody mentioned the release of a cd by a peruvian singer
that features some downtowners. (note: guest appearances only; none of
them appears on the whole cd.)

listened to some realaudio files on amazon and decided to buy it.

received it yesterday and had the chance to listen to it once.

it's called "eco de sombras", by susana baca. and is out on luaka bop.

the downtowners on it: marc ribot, greg cohen, john medeski, cyro
baptista.

the music is in a traditional south american vein. nothing spectacular
or groundbreaking. great for listening to on a sunday morning while
still in bed reading the paper. (and yes, another cd that wont scare any
of your friends...)

greg cohen's playing, as usual, is very solid. great sound. i love his
sound more and more!

ribot is also very solid. but not at his best. (personally, i feel, it's
our man zorn who gets the best playing out of marc.)

cyro baptista is also solid. though, i must admit, i've never been too
much a fan of his playing.

medeski. well - solid.

hope this was interesting to at least one person on the list...

yours,
patRice

p.s.: must admit that i was quite a bit of a fan of iron maiden ages
ago. so i was surprised to find out that bruce dickinson is back on
vocals - after eight years. and, i think, also one of the former
guitarists has joined again. might be reason (and excuse) enough for me
to go to the concert...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jim McLoughlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: susana baca
Date: 15 Jun 2000 13:20:15 -0400

Hi there

I just caught Susan Baca last night at Joe's Pub in NYC.  Greg Cohen didn't
play bass, her regular bass player did.  She also had a guitar player, 2
percussion players (one on a wooden box the whole time), and a guitarist in
her core group.

I enjoyed the live sound more than the CD - not as smooth, and the
percussion is more up front.  Medeski and Ribot sat in and added nice
background stuff, but the core group steals the show.  For those interested,
they're playing 2 sets a night through Friday.  A bit pricey at $30 a pop -
I'm sure many people are paying it to see David Byrne as advertised, but he
contributed minimally to the set I saw last night.

J



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: bobjectify yourself <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #964
Date: 16 Jun 2000 08:53:16 -0700

Hey,
Was I kicked off the list or something?
bob




















<pre>I know, appealing modern music is lacking, thats why
you should take me, Bob, for what it's worth and visit
www.webofmimicry.com and listen to everything you can
right now like a good little shopper!  And...
HEY! AND PAY NO ATTENTION TO THESE GODDAMN ADS AT THE
BOTTOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
</pre>___________________________________________________________________
Get your free, permanent e-mail @www.com, the original Net address!
- http://www.com/freemail

Listen to your favorite music while you work!
- http://www.com/radio

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hip hop cobra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT)


    I just heard about this gig...sounds
    cool...I'm in Boston until the 20th
    that week, maybe I can extend my
    travel plans for a NYC departure instead.

    mike rizzi

Fri. JULY 21
Cibo Matto presents
John Zorn's HIP HOP Cobra
  + special guest performers & djs
Brooklyn Bridge Anchorage, Brooklyn, NY
$12 adv/ $15 at door; 10pm

(zorn will be prompter - he'll also be curating at Tonic that month)

--
[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop cobra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 12:21:26 -0700


On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT)  "m. rizzi" wrote:
>
> Fri. JULY 21
> Cibo Matto presents
> John Zorn's HIP HOP Cobra
>   + special guest performers & djs
> Brooklyn Bridge Anchorage, Brooklyn, NY
> $12 adv/ $15 at door; 10pm

Still wondering what happened with Ned Sublette presenting Zorn's COUNTRY
Cobra...

> [e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
>                    "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
> -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

Talking about BROWBEAT... any idea when #3 will come out?

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: any comments on Cage's ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS?
Date: 16 Jun 2000 12:33:25 -0700


     Does anybody have comments on the following record:


*** - ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS & WINTER MUSIC: John Cage

  SEM Ensemble; David Tudor: piano; Petr Kotik: conductor.

    2000 - Asphodel (USA), ??? (CD)


Also, is this record an exception or will Asphodel be more involved with
classical contemporary music?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

NP: CHEAP IMITATION: John Cage (Ampersand)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: any comments on Cage's ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS?
Date: 16 Jun 2000 15:37:40 EDT


In a message dated 6/16/00 3:34:02 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< *** - ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS & WINTER MUSIC: John Cage

  SEM Ensemble; David Tudor: piano; Petr Kotik: conductor.

    2000 - Asphodel (USA), ??? (CD) >>

well, I haven't seen it or heard it yet, but I did see that it's out, because
Aquarius is stocking it. the one piece of info I can add is that it's a 4 CD
set.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip hop cobra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 16:04:54 -0400

Funny, I have pencilled in my book that Zorn is playing @Symphony Space that
night!
This is certainly cheaper.

Do you have a phone number for the venue, train directions?

Thanks,

Ljova


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of m. rizzi
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 3:10 PM
> To: Zorn Mailing List
> Subject: hip hop cobra
>
>
>
>     I just heard about this gig...sounds
>     cool...I'm in Boston until the 20th
>     that week, maybe I can extend my
>     travel plans for a NYC departure instead.
>
>     mike rizzi
>
> Fri. JULY 21
> Cibo Matto presents
> John Zorn's HIP HOP Cobra
>   + special guest performers & djs
> Brooklyn Bridge Anchorage, Brooklyn, NY
> $12 adv/ $15 at door; 10pm
>
> (zorn will be prompter - he'll also be curating at Tonic that month)
>
> --
> [e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
>                    "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
> -------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: hip hop cobra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 16:29:01 EDT


In a message dated 6/16/00 4:21:35 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Funny, I have pencilled in my book that Zorn is playing @Symphony Space
that

night! >>

that's next week, 6/21, not 7/21.

<<Do you have a phone number for the venue, train directions?>>

try www.creativetime.org, although this series of shows hasn't been posted
there yet. I believe that Glenn Branca will be performing his 12th Symphony
in this series also, which should be pretty wild in this space.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Italian Instabile Orchestra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 17:37:50 -0400

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I see that they're scheduled to play the Chicago Jazz festival at the end of
> August/beginning of September. anyone know if they have more US dates,
> specifically NYC?

Don't know if it helps much, but they're playing Montreal on June 30.

--Mike

--
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer,  Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 17:56:44 -0500


somehow i tend to always be one disc behind with the youth. my theory as to why
is pretty boring.

so i'm really entranced w/goodbye 20th c. i know little to nothing about the
pieces; approaching it as a youth disc however is really great. short-sighted,
but great. it's something like a kronos compendium/primer which might well
irritate the knowledgeable, but is valuable in learnin the rest of us.

that said, i'm particularly taken with the christian wolff trax. are these
"faithful" to his compositions? (somehow i trust kronos more than sy to deliver
the goods undamaged.) what about other pieces?

my asking also brings up how annoying it is that they include no liner notes. i
mean, no doubt people even less familiar with such stuff than i have pickd this
up and are wondering what they're listening to. someone could easily think, for
example, that they're just makin funna yoko (who i saw in central park last week
-- *swoon*) if they aren't familiar with the instruction pieces. pretentious not
to provide info as to what they're doing here, methinks.

np: xtc: the upsy-daisey assortment



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 18:02:20 EDT


In a message dated 6/16/00 5:57:07 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< that said, i'm particularly taken with the christian wolff trax. are these

"faithful" to his compositions? (somehow i trust kronos more than sy to
deliver

the goods undamaged.) what about other pieces? >>

since Wolff plays on the tracks in question, I think it's safe to say they're
faithful. as for other tracks, I recall reading somewhere that Jim O'Rourke,
Takehisa Kosugi and William Winant, all of whom have substantial backgrounds
with modern classical repertoire, helped SY in this regard.

so who's going to see SY with O'Rourke and the Brotzmann 12tet tomorrow in
NYC, besides me and Brian?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Laferty <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 18:01:58 -0400

I agree a bit on Goodbye 20th Century.  I like the record (it IS listenable and well
chosen) but only know something abou t some of the tracks.  It's my understanding
that the Reich piece is pretty faithful (and sounds great).   I'm not looking for
some kind of academic treatise either, a Byron Coley rant (I'd like to see a good
list of everywhere he's done liners and reviews...btw) would be just fine by me.

np: npr

[e-mail] wrote:

> somehow i tend to always be one disc behind with the youth. my theory as to why
> is pretty boring.
>
> so i'm really entranced w/goodbye 20th c. i know little to nothing about the
> pieces; approaching it as a youth disc however is really great. short-sighted,
> but great. it's something like a kronos compendium/primer which might well
> irritate the knowledgeable, but is valuable in learnin the rest of us.
>
> that said, i'm particularly taken with the christian wolff trax. are these
> "faithful" to his compositions? (somehow i trust kronos more than sy to deliver
> the goods undamaged.) what about other pieces?
>
> my asking also brings up how annoying it is that they include no liner notes. i
> mean, no doubt people even less familiar with such stuff than i have pickd this
> up and are wondering what they're listening to. someone could easily think, for
> example, that they're just makin funna yoko (who i saw in central park last week
> -- *swoon*) if they aren't familiar with the instruction pieces. pretentious not
> to provide info as to what they're doing here, methinks.
>
> np: xtc: the upsy-daisey assortment
>
> -


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop cobra
Date: 16 Jun 2000 15:11:09 -0700 (PDT)

Patrice L. Roussel, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>Talking about BROWBEAT... any idea when #3 will come out?

    heh. ever since I started my own company,
    browbeat has been on the "back burner"
    shall we say.

    someday...I hope.

    mike

[e-mail] -------------------------------------- www.browbeat.com
                   "Another nerd with a soulpatch"
-------- browbeat magazine, po box 11124, oakland, ca 94611-1124 -------

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 18:09:43 -0400

>so who's going to see SY with O'Rourke and the Brotzmann 12tet tomorrow in
>NYC, besides me and Brian?
>
>Jon
>www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
>-

I am...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 15:13:35 -0700


On Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:01:58 -0400  Matt Laferty wrote:
>
> I agree a bit on Goodbye 20th Century.  I like the record (it IS listenable and well
> chosen) but only know something abou t some of the tracks.  It's my understanding
> that the Reich piece is pretty faithful (and sounds great).   I'm not looking for

Although you have to be careful with the microphones. If they don't show any
enthousiasm to swing, it can completely ruin the performance.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: any comments on Cage's ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS?
Date: 16 Jun 2000 18:39:40 -0400

At 12:33 PM 6/16/00 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>     Does anybody have comments on the following record:
>
>*** - ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS & WINTER MUSIC: John Cage
>
>  SEM Ensemble; David Tudor: piano; Petr Kotik: conductor.
>
>    2000 - Asphodel (USA), ??? (CD)

There was a discussion about this on the Cage list a couple of weeks ago,
archived at http://www.newalbion.com/artists/cagej/silence/html/2000q2/.
The recording generated some controversy because Kotik conducts, while Cage
specifies no conductor.  Look for the thread 'Cage for orchestra'.


--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

-- Satchel Paige

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 16 Jun 2000 21:11:16 -0400

Dan Hewins wrote:

> >so who's going to see SY with O'Rourke and the Brotzmann 12tet tomorrow in
> >NYC, besides me and Brian?
> >
> >Jon
> >www.erstwhilerecords.com
> >
> >-
>
> I am...

Funny, I just gave my ticket away to Jason "Ohm" Gross tonight.  I mainly
bought it to see the Brotzmann group and now they're playing later in the month
at Tonic, a better venue.  And I have to admit that SY's new one ain't doing it
for me yet.  Bummed to be missing Jim O'Rourke as bass playing rock god,
though...  Someone take a photo.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Cecil Taylor, "First," 'Nailed' (FMP)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: susana
Date: 16 Jun 2000 20:15:15 -0700 (PDT)

The person who brought Susana Baca to mention here was none other
than silly old me. Her voice is definitely soothing and relaxing, and
she's one of the very few local singers I tolerate.

Anyway, said record release was kinda big news here...it sure was
funny seeing John Zorn's name on the paper!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: taboo
Date: 16 Jun 2000 20:40:17 -0700 (PDT)

I finaly got around to buying Taboo and Exile last week...I was
pleasantly surprised because the record's much better than I thought
it was, judging from the reaction it got on all of you, I thought it
was good, just not great, but being a total Lombardo groupie, I HAD
TO HAVE IT. Anyway, it's too good, so if any of you doesn't have it,
which I doubt, go get it.

A
np: Dream Theater-Scenes from a Memory

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: PD: Ensemble Modern playing Zappa in Berlin
Date: 17 Jun 2000 10:31:59 +0200

I forward a message concering the availibility of tickets for Ensemble
Modern playing Zappa in berlin the 11.07.2000. Maybe they also cover the
other cities - there is a whole tour in Germany.
That may be great! the show is announced as Gregarry peckary & other tales.
GP is a great tune, (side A of STUDIO TAN) and EM's performance can be a
beast.
Conducted by Peter Eotvos (who joins the family of Zappa conductors - Mehta,
Boulez, Nagano, and Rundall. Well, one can talk about a quality label!).
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>

>From: Pinner, Barbara <[e-mail]>
> Hello,
>
> prices for the concert are
>
> cat. E 30,00 DM
> cat. D 40,00 DM
> cat. C 50,00 DM
> cat. B 60,00 DM
> cat. A 65,00 DM
>
> plus VVK-fee 10 %. Beginning is 20.00.
>
> You can order tickets by e-mail (with your full name/adress/tel.no.), we
> will send you then an invoice. After payment tickets will be deposited at
> the ticket counter at gendarmenmarkt (Charlottenstra▀e/Taubenstra▀e).
>
> With best wishes,
>
> MEDIA ON-LINE Management GmbH & Co. Classic Open Air KG
>
> Barbara Pinner




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: taboo
Date: 17 Jun 2000 10:38:47 +0200

BTW: will Blade Runner release anything more (live albums?)
Why don't they play in Warsaw ?..:-(

> I finaly got around to buying Taboo and Exile last week...I was
> pleasantly surprised because the record's much better than I thought
> it was, judging from the reaction it got on all of you, I thought it
> was good, just not great, but being a total Lombardo groupie, I HAD
> TO HAVE IT. Anyway, it's too good, so if any of you doesn't have it,
> which I doubt, go get it.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Death Ambient tonight @ Tonic, NYC 6/8
Date: 17 Jun 2000 10:41:49 +0200

Hey, what was it like?

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: one more Modern Zappa
Date: 17 Jun 2000 11:12:06 +0200

BTW i send the tour info...

          ZAPPA
          Greggery Peccary & Other Persuasions / Works
          31.05.2000, Hannover, Eroeffnungsveranstaltung EXPO 2000
          06.06.2000, Cologne, E-Werk, CologneTriennale 2000
          08.06.2000, Munich, Muffathalle, Musica Viva
          10.06.2000, Amsterdam, Concertgebouw (Holland Festival)
          05.07.2000, Bologna, Teatro Communale (Bolgna 2000)
          09./10.07.2000, Hannover, EXPO 2000
          11.07.2000, Berlin, Gendarmenmarkt
          09.-10.09.2000, Duisburg, Kraftzentrale (KulturRuhr 2000)
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]
<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: private message to Artur Nowak
Date: 17 Jun 2000 20:08:01 EDT

Artur,
Please contact me... the last email I sent to you bounced.
-Jody

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Allan Sutherland <[e-mail]>
Subject: Satoko Fujii solo concert and award nomination
Date: 18 Jun 2000 14:30:30 +0900

Apologies for cross posting:

The Jazz Journalists Association has nominated the Japanese pianist,
composer and big band leader in their Jazz Awards 2000 for the award of jazz
composer of the year! Congratulations, is in order, especially given the
august members on the list along with Satoko Fujii:

9) Composer of the Year
    Corea, Chick
    Douglas, Dave
    Fuji, Satoko
    Hill, Andrew
    Holland, Dave
    Marsalis, Wynton
    Rivers, Sam

We are very especially lucky, because Satoko will be give a solo piano
performance in our house next Saturday evening, June 24, the day before the
awards winners are announced in New York. She will be performing
improvisations based on Japanese folk melodies, deconstructing Japanese Folk
Melodies. We have a large house, especially for Japan, making an intimate
venue. If there are any on this list who live near here; 30minutes from
Kumamoto, 1 hour from Fukuoka, by train, in Kyushu, southern Japan.

It is still possible to obtain tickets for our Saturday night, June 24,
performance. The sets begin at 6:45pm and 8:45pm, and finish around 7:45 and
8:45, respectively. The full price tickets, at 2,500 yen, and student
discount tickets  at1500 yen, are very cheap for this type of intimate
venue,  for which (especially in Japan) it would be impossible to experience
anywhere else, except for far far more expensive ticket price. (The
musicians who have performed here in the past have praised the venue for its
overall acoustics compared with many other venues that they have performed
in, I  of course, would have to bow to their superior ability to assess
this, and agree with them.) Anyone who is reading this and can, is
encouraged to come, they will experience a truly wonderful performance, and
can anticipate the outcome of the award ceremony.

The venue is in Tamana, and is a mere 8 - 10 minutes walk form the station,
or about 700yen by taxi, A map of directions can be faxed or sent by email
to anyone not familiar with the town, please request one.

Reservations can be made by calling 0968-75-1262, or sending a simple email
message, with your name, number of tickets, and whether you wish these for
the first or second set. (Please note, that on the night tickets have a
small supplement of 250 yen, making them 2,750.)

Cheers,


Allan.


****************************************************************
McCoy Tyner, Charlie Parker sessionographies of all known recordings,
official and unofficial. Any information heartily appreciated, merci,
arigato, graci, thanks.

http://www.kyushu-ns.ac.jp/~allan/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christina Carter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:38:35 CDT

Just a few thoughts -

the names of composers and pieces is the information that one needs for
further research if interested. They might be trying to show that this
'classical' music can become part of our lives w/o having to go into
explanations. That is has influenced culture now to the extent that it has
become a (reachable/imaginable?) inspiration to those who are receptive (yet
not formally schooled)...

and as to the yoko track, someone could interpret it this way but it shows
how we can have innocence and not be cynical (anyone can perform this even a
child... wait - isn't that wonderful?) if we instead "read" it in the same
way that yoko wanted us to read "yes" from her art.

Not that I felt in your message that you are describing a cynical attitude
that you yourself felt, but you are describing a possibility of a reaction.


Christina








>From: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: syr4
>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:56:44 -0500
>
>
>somehow i tend to always be one disc behind with the youth. my theory as to
>why
>is pretty boring.
>
>so i'm really entranced w/goodbye 20th c. i know little to nothing about
>the
>pieces; approaching it as a youth disc however is really great.
>short-sighted,
>but great. it's something like a kronos compendium/primer which might well
>irritate the knowledgeable, but is valuable in learnin the rest of us.
>
>that said, i'm particularly taken with the christian wolff trax. are these
>"faithful" to his compositions? (somehow i trust kronos more than sy to
>deliver
>the goods undamaged.) what about other pieces?
>
>my asking also brings up how annoying it is that they include no liner
>notes. i
>mean, no doubt people even less familiar with such stuff than i have pickd
>this
>up and are wondering what they're listening to. someone could easily think,
>for
>example, that they're just makin funna yoko (who i saw in central park last
>week
>-- *swoon*) if they aren't familiar with the instruction pieces.
>pretentious not
>to provide info as to what they're doing here, methinks.
>
>np: xtc: the upsy-daisey assortment
>
>
>
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: PD: Ensemble Modern playing Zappa in Berlin
Date: 18 Jun 2000 10:34:00 +0200

It seems that i have not sent this message.
BTW i repost the tour info
         ZAPPA
          Greggery Peccary & Other Persuasions / Works
          31.05.2000, Hannover, Eroeffnungsveranstaltung EXPO 2000
          06.06.2000, Cologne, E-Werk, CologneTriennale 2000
          08.06.2000, Munich, Muffathalle, Musica Viva
          10.06.2000, Amsterdam, Concertgebouw (Holland Festival)
          05.07.2000, Bologna, Teatro Communale (Bolgna 2000)
          09./10.07.2000, Hannover, EXPO 2000
          11.07.2000, Berlin, Gendarmenmarkt
          09.-10.09.2000, Duisburg, Kraftzentrale (KulturRuhr 2000)

> I forward a message concering the availibility of tickets for Ensemble
> Modern playing Zappa in berlin the 11.07.2000. Maybe they also cover the
> other cities - there is a whole tour in Germany.
> That may be great! the show is announced as Gregarry peckary & other
tales.
> GP is a great tune, (side A of STUDIO TAN) and EM's performance can be a
> beast.
> Conducted by Peter Eotvos (who joins the family of Zappa conductors -
Mehta,
> Boulez, Nagano, and Rundall. Kind of 'quality label!').
> Marcin Gokieli
> [e-mail]
> <<Thanks to this excellent device
> man shall reenter paradise.>>
>
> >From: Pinner, Barbara <[e-mail]>
> > Hello,
> >
> > prices for the concert are
> >
> > cat. E 30,00 DM
> > cat. D 40,00 DM
> > cat. C 50,00 DM
> > cat. B 60,00 DM
> > cat. A 65,00 DM
> >
> > plus VVK-fee 10 %. Beginning is 20.00.
> >
> > You can order tickets by e-mail (with your full name/adress/tel.no.), we
> > will send you then an invoice. After payment tickets will be deposited
at
> > the ticket counter at gendarmenmarkt (Charlottenstra▀e/Taubenstra▀e).
> >
> > With best wishes,
> >
> > MEDIA ON-LINE Management GmbH & Co. Classic Open Air KG
> >
> > Barbara Pinner



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 18 Jun 2000 11:51:45 +0200 (CEST)



>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:30:46 -0600
>From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
>Subject: RE: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
>
>Jacques Oger wrote concerning Zach Settel:
>
>>his live process
>>treatment seems old style.
>>But, nevertheless, in that festival, I liked the 1st piece played on the
>>bass, and the 2nd one on the voice.
>>Maybe because the complete lack of ego gave to this (their) performance
>>a kind of freedom which is, after all, not so frequent. That's why I liked
>>their show, for extra musical reasons, I agree, but sometimes human
>>factors
>>are important too.
>
>Lack of ego was extra-musical, "human" factor?  I'm confused.
>
>- -Matt Wirzbicki
>
>
>Jacques Oger
>


Very pleased that you can be confused  :-)


Yes I think that absence of ego is a human quality. Not necessary of course.

But above all,  a concert is made in front of people. And what people think
at that moment is another human factor.

Jacques Oger



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 18 Jun 2000 11:51:39 +0200 (CEST)


>
>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:53:17 EDT
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
>
>In a message dated 6/12/00 6:16:56 AM, [e-mail] writes:
>
><< one of my favorite group this
>year was: Maxwells Damon (Ulrich Phillipp, Uwe Buhrdorf, Ulrich Bottcher) >>
>
>I left the morning before this show, unfortunately. did they play acoustic
>instruments only, as listed in the program, or electronics also, as on their
>1996 record Nefastismaschine (Hybrid)?

Hi Jon,

It was definitely both : acoustic and electronics process. (written "mixte"
on the program).

Jacques Oger



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: Moondog scores request / and Modern String Quartet
Date: 18 Jun 2000 09:32:23 -0400

Anyone have anything to offer here?:

>>>>>>>>

Gentle readers,

Forgive the egregious cross-posting, which will be explained by the nature
of my inquiry.

I am making on behalf of a newbie friend who has not discovered mailing
lists.

He is forming a string quartet for a performance at an outdoor rock
festival in New York in August and wants to present one of Moondog's (Louis
Thomas Hardin) string quartets, preferably No. 2, "Synchrony."

He has not been able through his channels to locate a performing score and
would appreciate any pointers you might have about where one might be found.

His name is Louis Nicolia and he can be mailed at:

[e-mail]

Also, anybody having any knowledge of the arrangements of Miles Davis
material by the German Modern String Quartet should let Lou know, as well.

Thanking you in advance and apologizing once again for the cross-post, I am

JC
|John Chacona |
|[e-mail]|
<<<<<<<<


--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Mimeo at Vandoeuvre Musique Action Festival
Date: 18 Jun 2000 12:58:13 -0600


Oger on Settel:
>>>That's why I
>>>liked
>>>their show, for extra musical reasons, I agree, but sometimes human
>>>factors
>>>are important too.
>>
>>
>>Lack of ego was extra-musical, "human" factor?  I'm confused.
>>
>
>Very pleased that you can be confused  :-)

ok...I'm happy that you're happy. (?)

>Yes I think that absence of ego is a human quality. Not necessary of
>course.

I'll agree that "human" factors are important but I don't think they're
extra-musical.  People don't make music in a a labratory (hopefully).  It
just sounded to me like the lack of ego was somehow apparent to you without
listening to the music.  -That it was "extra-musical."  The inverse of you
statement didn't really work and that's what confused me.  (ie.  If I like a
performance for intra-musical reasons then I may not neccessarily have
considered the "human factors")  I'd argue that they are one in the same.
Humans make music therefore music is human. I'm not saying that absence of
ego is not a human quality.  I'm saying that absence of ego may not be
extra-musical within the context of performance.

I'm pleased that you can be touched by Zach Settel's humanity.

>But above all,  a concert is made in front of people. And what people
>think
>at that moment is another human factor.

sure, but what they think is derived from what they hear.  - It is a factor
of the music.


Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fred Frith: Technology Of Tears
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:28 +0000

a question: any of you know Frith's "Technology Of Tears"? Opinions? What kind of music is it?
thanks and sorry if it was discussed earlier...
andras


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: What's going on at RCA... (long)
Date: 18 Jun 2000 21:11:44 -0400

Hey there, all:

While this post might seem a bit self-serving, it's not meant to be.
Rather, I'm posting this as a followup to Kurt Gottschalk's posting a
few weeks back regarding the "corporate restructuring" at BMG and the
effect it's had on the classical department.  This article, from
Sonicnet, is the first to actually deal with the jazz end of things, and
while there are a few factual errors (for instance, "RCA/Victor" [sic]
was never a record company in and of itself, but rather a record label
name operated by the record company BMG Classics - in other words,
anytime the writer refers to these two companies, he's really only
referring to one company), it's essentially the way things are.

You'll notice I'm mentioned a couple of times in this article, but don't
worry.  I've already got another job.  Also, note that Dave Douglas, for
one, is able to find a silver lining in this dark cloud, which is to his
credit, I think.  But check out what Sam Rivers has to say, as well.
The man don't mince words...

Best,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]

Ravi Coltrane, Dave Douglas, Others In Limbo After BMG Shakeup

Jobs cut as RCA/Victor, BMG Classics fold into new company.

Contributing Editor Bob Margolis reports:

The recording deals of saxophonist Ravi Coltrane, trumpeter Dave
Douglas, pianist D.D. Jackson and other jazz artists may be in jeopardy
after a major reorganization at BMG Entertainment.

The change has already cost several employees their jobs and more
layoffs are to come.

"They are evil," veteran saxophonist Sam Rivers said of the people who
run major record companies. "Business people are interested in one
thing, the bottom line."

On May 26, RCA/Victor and BMG Classics =97 the labels that handled jazz =97
were dissolved and folded into the RCA Music Group, which also has
swallowed RCA and Windham Hill records.

According to Keith Estabrook, a spokesman for the German-owned BMG
(Bertelsmann Music Group) Entertainment Corporation, "The RCA Music
Group will be home to all of the music genres: rock and pop, world
music, jazz, traditional and nontraditional classical, Broadway and
soundtracks."

Major Changes

Although no one at BMG or RCA Music Group would talk about the fate of
the labels' jazz artists, some classical artists formerly attached to
BMG Classics have been terminated, flutist James Galway and
percussionist Evelyn Glennie among them.

Industry sources say as many as 100 employees, including staff at RCA
and new-age label Windham Hill, could lose their jobs in the
reorganization. Four senior staff members at BMG Classics-RCA/Victor
already have been fired: National Media Manager Steve Smith, Vice
President of Catalogue Development Bonnie Barrett, Vice President of A&R
for Jazz and World Music Steve Gates and Vice President of Marketing and
Advertising David Neidhardt.

A recent report in Billboard magazine said that former BMG Classics
General Manager David Eyer and Windham Hill President Steve Vining will
not stay with the new company.

The RCA Music Group will be under the direction of RCA Records'
President Robert Jamieson and General Manager Jack Rovner; the two did
not return sonicnet.com's phone calls.

In late March BMG Entertainment signaled its intentions in a memo from
its CEO, Strauss Zelnick, addressed to employees of BMG Classics and
Windham Hill. It said a review of "operating structures" was under way
and that the company's objective was "to create the most efficient and
effective business organization emphasizing the creative integrity of
the individual genres of music."

Legendary History

The demise of BMG Classics and RCA/Victor marks what may be the final
chapter in the long and impressive role that the RCA Company has played
in jazz history. On its own label and various imprints such as Bluebird,
the company has issued classic recordings by bandleader Duke Ellington,
trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, saxophonist Sonny Rollins and many other
legends of jazz.

Trumpeter Dave Douglas, who recently issued his major-label debut on
RCA, Soul on Soul, and has just finished recording his second, has mixed
feelings about the shakeup.

"I am just curious about this mysterious decision-making process that's
going on over there," he said. "People like Steve Smith and Bonnie,
Steve Gates and David, were all doing a really fine job and turning the
label around in a really positive way. But this may not be a bad thing
overall. Usually, improvised music like mine gets relegated to very
small labels with limited distribution, and subsequently gets
ghettoized. Hopefully, a big powerhouse label like RCA will take chances
with challenging music and put muscle behind it."

Also an RCA artist, Rivers, who just released Culmination, takes a
harsher view. The 76-year-old saxophonist is a veteran of several
labels, including Blue Note and Impulse in the '60s and '70s.

"What advantage did I get from being with a major label?" Rivers asked.
"They didn't put my records out as a double disc, which I wanted, and
they certainly didn't advertise my work either. Anytime I saw an
advertisement from RCA, it had a bunch of records on one page. That
doesn't help much, does it? The small independent labels are the ones
that really work with you and push your product. So, no, I am not
surprised at all by this action going on up there."

According to a source at RCA who requested anonymity, it is "too soon to
tell" who will handle jazz marketing, artist development and A&R for the
RCA Music Group. "Right now, we have no idea whatsoever about which
artists will be dropped and which ones will be kept on," the source
said.

Other jazz artists who may be affected by the reorganization at BMG are
trumpeter Tom Harrell, saxophonist Harry Allen, alto saxophonist Steve
Coleman and the vocal group New York Voices.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Risser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4
Date: 18 Jun 2000 22:31:15 -0400

So, was it Wolff who used to do the graph paper compositions?
I forget.

Peter


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Risser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: any comments on Cage's ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS?
Date: 18 Jun 2000 22:28:21 -0400

I used to play a side of this at a time, off an ... 8? album set.  Cage
placed star charts over score paper and made the music.  VERY sparse.  It
was always good to throw on behind a set of wacky noise collage, because all
the sudden an orchestra would jump out from behind the bushes, make a big
noise, and run off tittering like schoolchildren.  Quite nice.

Peter

>   Does anybody have comments on the following record:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
> *** - ATLAS ECLIPTICALIS & WINTER MUSIC: John Cage
>
>   SEM Ensemble; David Tudor: piano; Petr Kotik: conductor.
>
>     2000 - Asphodel (USA), ??? (CD)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt Teichman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Recording Zorn
Date: 19 Jun 2000 00:18:19 -0400

Just for the record, does Zorn allow his concerts to be taped for personal
use (we already know MP3 distribution is a no-go)?  There's a nice juicy
Masada concert this Wednesday for which I was thinking I might haul along
my junky tape recorder...

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: non-performance aspects of electronic music, Cage, Sonic Youth's
Date: 19 Jun 2000 01:45:20 -0500

Hi,

With my usual digest delay enhanced by unusual, but great, personal
circumstances (I just got married),I'm late weighing in on discussion
of whether a performance with nothing to look at (& often with no
music being created in real time before the audience) is a
performance at all.

I didn't read every digest super closely on this, so this may
havebeen mentioned, but there's more than a forty year "tradition" of
concerts of tape music.Most all of the classics of musique concrete
and Elektronische Musik made in the studios of New York, Paris and
Cologne during the late 1940s, 1950s and beyond were presented in
concerts long before they were released on LPs. Some of the most
important works went unrecorded until the advent of CDs, and only now
are most people able to hear the range of what was being created in
electronic studios around the world back in the day.

So the recent flap about concerts with "no performers" is old news.
Old school electronic music venues, both alternative spaces (like
Experimental Intermedia & Roulette in New York) and academic
situations (most colleges or universities with an electronic studio),
have been presenting works on tape since the old days.  The tape
starts, the piece plays, when the piece stops there's either an
awkward silence til folks are sure the piece is done, some
venue-specific convention informs the audience the piece is finished
(lights go up or down, etc), or the composer or other person who
knows the work begins to applaud to cue other listeners.

The first live idiomatically (I'm distinguishing avant garde work
from more traditionally romantic/instrumental works for theremin,
trautonium, ondes Martenot, etc) electronic pieces were similar:
Cage, Tudor, et al listening and twiddling knobs every once in awhile
and this performance style continued with folks in the 1980s who were
often simply dealing with a table of gear. Some folks were more
direct in their performance approach (composers like Alvin Lucier &
Alvin Curran who often mixed live performers with electronic sounds,
Julius' magnets & buzzers, Carl Stone's visible responses to his own
works, Nic Collins use of other instrumental performance cliches with
his trombone-propelled electronics, are some examples who come to
mind, but many others were still doing mystfyingly little to perform
their music.

Now that there are composers who perform in venues that more commonly
present pop music to audiences that if not any larger than that at
least include some folks who aren't used to earlier tape-music
conventions, the potential "problems" are more perhaps obvious. Body
English, looking like one is doing something, let alone looking like
you mean what you're playing all seem beside the point which, to my
mind anyway, should be how does each listener respond to what they've
heard.

On a related note, I'd like to give early warning for a Mappings show
in two weeks that features recordings by MIMEO and FennO'Berg, as
well as the earlier computer music bands The Hub and the League of
Automated Composers. This'll be online at
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index.htm> beginning, I
think, June 26, after the current show.

The issues with the recent Petr Kotik led recordings of Atlas
Eclipticalis/Winter Music/103 are NOT simply that these pieces were
originally composed to be performed without a conductor, nor is this
the essence of the discussion on Silence. Rather the issue is the
role of a conductor in pieces like these. Atlas & Winter are often
performed together, almost always with a conductor who's function is
to track the time for scores in which performers must interpret a
line of events that are supposed to occur within a particular
timeframe. Most of the late number pieces by Cage (which includes
103) have not been performed with conductors of any kind rather by
groups of musicians performing independently, using stopwatches or
digital clocks.

In the liner notes to this disc Kotik is quoted describing a more
active, interpretive sense of how to direct the group rather than
simply keeping track of the time. While the specific quote cited
originally to the Cage-list was somewhat incendiary, in the context
of the complete liner notes what Kotik seems to be doing is not as a
far afield of the actual practice of Cage's late "time bracket"
pieces. Performers often make versions that include specific
preferred events and simultaneities that are possible, but not
required by the score. Probably the most extreme recorded instance of
this is the CD of two different versions of Thirteen on CPO in which
the ensemble chose to do one fairly sparse realization and one that's
more full.

As to Sonic Youth's Goodbye 20th Century, Jon Abbey is correct to
note that because of the participation of folks who either are the
composers or who've worked with them directly, the performances are
generally good. But for many of these pieces that doesn't mean that
this is the way they would sound in any correct version, since
they're as flexible as Zorn's game pieces: different ensembles, with
or without the composer's participation, could do the same works
correctly and the music would sound quite different.

That said, several of the pieces on the discs are performed a bit
oddly. Steve Reich's Pendulum Music sounds as if it were several
performances strung together, and at least one of the Cage number
pieces (Four6) is presented as two takes by different groups
overdubbed. James Tenney's Having Never Written a Note for Percussion
is also a kind of re-orchestration of this work for several musicians
performing in the spirit of the original solo work (which is a single
note marked with a slow crescendo & decrescendo).

Bests,

Herb
--
Herb Levy
NEW MAILING ADDRESS:  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX  76147
NEW PHONE: [phone]
same old e-mail: [e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: books (NO ZORN CONTENT!!!)
Date: 19 Jun 2000 13:47:20 +0200

hi y'all...

recently i've asked several times on this list about books.

i wonder if i'm maybe over-doing this? what do you think, mighty rizzi?

is it okay as long as people don't start complaining - or are some of
you interested in maybe starting a separate e-groups list?

i was wondering today: do any of you know of good/reommendable books on
japanese mythology? any help is appreciated!

yours,
patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Eyvind Kang's "The Story Of Iceland"
Date: 19 Jun 2000 23:12:27 +1000

Got this album today, it's really quite hard to describe. Somewhere in
between 7 NADEs and Theatre Of Mineral NADEs. The pieces are much longer
and a bit more experimental than on the latter, but there aren't any
noisefests like on the former. The first 5 tracks (which make up "The Story
Of Iceland") focus on one nice little 'theme' (rest assured it isn't the
NADE theme!) developing it in a few different ways, and inserting little
bits of contrasting material here and there. The sixth track is kind of
poppy, but with lots of layered singing and playing. Basically the layers
build up till the end where it has become completely distorted. And the
last track is a short gamelan solo.

Anyway, my admittedly quite early impression is that it's generally good,
but some of the longer repetitive ones tend to get boring (particularly the
one described as 'kind of poppy' above).

Incidentally some of the more well known musicians on there: Bar McKinnon,
Tim Young, Keith Lowe, Tucker Martine, Bill Frisell... Trey Spruance is
also cited as one of the recording engineers.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: thurston@tonic and zornchambermusic@angelorensanz
Date: 19 Jun 2000 14:17:17 +0100

hi all

please forgive me if i missed it, but i'm surprised that there's been
no mention of two gigs i caught a couple of weeks ago:

a) thurston moore improv set at tonic (i think with nels cline(?) and
zeena parkins), followed by kim gordon/ikue mori/dj olive

and perhaps more pertinantly,

b) john zorn's chamber music at the angel orensanz foundation,
norfolk st., nyc (part of the bell atlantic jazz festival), with
stephen drury, william winant, jennifer choi, and the "de sade"
quartet!


i just took a short break in new york and managed to catch both, and
was suitably impressed, particularly the latter which was utterly
enchanting, imho.

was i the only zorn-lister there? i find that hard to believe ... if
so, you new yorkers are taking your access to live music for granted!

all the best,
dan.


--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [19.6.2000]:
< hia/biosphere | graham haynes | suburban lick |  zed bias | david
howard | burnt friedmann/atom heart | david howard >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: syr4 (notes)
Date: 19 Jun 2000 14:05:26 +0000 (GMT)


http://www.smellslikerecords.com/syr/syr4/syr4frameset.html

there are notes by winant at the above link (follow the 'notes' link).

whit


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: more sy4
Date: 19 Jun 2000 11:50:17 -0500


maybe i was a little unclear by being a little dismissive about the youth
project. i don't mean that i wonder if they've ruined the pieces or if the john
cage estate is likely to sue or anything. but these are different sorts of
players (i'm guessing) than would normally tackle these pieces. that said, are
they radically different than the "usual" approach?

i love a lot of 20th C through-composed stuff. i also love electric guitars.
probably moreso the latter. somebody could, for eg, take a schoenberg quartet
(let's say #2 since it's so beautiful) and arrange it for 4 electric guitars. it
would almost necessarily sound more alive (at least to these ears) because of
the nature of the instrument.

that's sorta what i'm wondering about the sy perfs. there's still a level of
rock band i hear in it. my questions really are too numerous to generalize, i
guess (did wolff instruct a telling of the 3 lil bears, or was kim just in the
mood?). i much appreciated herb's comments (and congrats, herb), and would be
interested to hear more (and more opinionated) reactions. also if anyone knows
of web sources which talk about the pieces (with or without the sy filter,
whatever that means), i'd be appreciative.

didn't mean to dis the youth. i love them. i'm just trying to learn more about
the music they've introduced me to here.

Patrice said:
Although you have to be careful with the microphones. If they don't show any
enthousiasm to swing, it can completely ruin the performance.

In other words, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing?

kg

np: roland kirk - we free kings



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: SY in NYC review (was Re: syr4)
Date: 19 Jun 2000 14:09:55 -0400

Well, I have to say that the SY show didn't impress me that much.
Perhaps my expectations were too high because the show was by no
means bad.  I'll note tah I really like all of SY's recent output
(Thousand Leaves, NYC Ghosts & Flowers, and the SYR EPs) and haven't
really been much of a fan of the older stuff except Daydream Nation.

The Br=F6tzmann 10tet + 2 was pretty good.  I think the venue was too
large and open for them to sound good though.  They were mic'd and
mixed like a rock band and that didn't sound so hot to me.  The
composition wasn't that interesting to me either.  It seemed like
full-on blasts from the whole group interspersed with sols and duos
and trios improvising.  I liked "Other Brothers" from the 3CD set and
this was nothing like that.  Perhaps the Tonic show will be better...
I can't see all 12 of those folks on the Tonic stage though!

SY was good but, like I said, maybe I expected more because I left
feeling dissatisfied.  They played a bunch of songs from NYC Ghosts
and some from 1000 Leaves.  The second song they played was from
Daydream Nation which was nice.  Jim played bass and guitar
(alternating with Kim).  He also manned a "gadget board" which
generated some noises and sounds.  I think his addition was
beneficial.  I had never seen them before and I was glad to see them.

Dan Hewins

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: SYR -> SFS
Date: 19 Jun 2000 11:53:43 -0700

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/20000618/t000057955.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sun Ra's "Space is the Place"
Date: 19 Jun 2000 12:17:27 -0700

A friend of mine recently saw a Sun Ra film from the early 70s called "Space
is the Place". Rather than a concert film, it has a plot, something about
Sun Ra and the Arkestra riding around in a rocket ship thwarting the
nefarious plans of the FBI.

In trying to explain the look of the film, he said it was if Earth Wind and
Fire were featured on an episode of "Shazam".

Has anyone else seen this?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: DOWNTOWN 81 by Edo Bertoglio?
Date: 19 Jun 2000 12:27:46 -0700


    A friend mentioned to me the upcoming release of the movie DOWNTOWN 81
by director Edo Bertoglio. The movie (if I read correctly) is about the
no-wave scene and features Jean-Michel Basquiat, Debby Harry, and many others
(or is it mainly about Basquiat?).

    Although the above is mouth watering, there is more since coupled with
the release of the movie, there will be a CD with unreleased tracks by... DNA,
Tuxedomoon, James White, Kid Creole!!!

    Could it be, finally, the release of the mythic:


*** - GRUTZY ELVIS: various artists

  This record features DNA (one track), etc.

    1979 - Ze Records, ??? (??)

  Note: this record was never released.


    Needless to say, if anybody has more info on this exciting movie,

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sun Ra's "Space is the Place"
Date: 19 Jun 2000 14:35:56 -0400

It's currently available on video. I keep meaning to pick it up.

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 12:17:27PM -0700, Greg Mills wrote:
> A friend of mine recently saw a Sun Ra film from the early 70s called "Space
> is the Place". Rather than a concert film, it has a plot, something about
> Sun Ra and the Arkestra riding around in a rocket ship thwarting the
> nefarious plans of the FBI.
>
> In trying to explain the look of the film, he said it was if Earth Wind and
> Fire were featured on an episode of "Shazam".
>
> Has anyone else seen this?
>
> -

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Marclay/Arto & Chris Speed Yeah No @ Tonic 6/16
Date: 19 Jun 2000 16:24:49 -0400

I caught the sets at Tonic last Friday and I have mixed reviews.

I had to go see Christian Marclay and Arto Lindsay because I haven't
ever seen Marclay work his tables before.  I do wish he had another
collaborator though.  Marclay was great.  For those of you who
haven't seen him before, I'll describe the setup he was using on
Friday.  He had two turntables that looked very old and very used.
He had them both going into a digital delay pedal.  He had one of
them going to a volume/wah pedal that also went into another
(boomerang) phrase sampler.  This allowed him to sample pieces and
repeat them to his liking.  This seemed like a versatile setup and he
was able to get quite a wide range of sounds out if it.  He also
employed "extended techniques" such as wiping the records under the
needle across the grooves, banging on the tone arm with records,
tapping on a spinning record with his fingers, and "man-handling" the
records and turntables in other ways.  Very enjoyable to watch.
Arto, on the other hand, seemed to employ only one technique on his
guitar and that was turn on the distortion and make noise.  As a
preface I'll say that I don't want to sound disrespectful but I do
want to describe what I saw as accurately as I can.  He didn't ever
play any "notes" or even very many rhythms.  He tuned down the lowest
string down to a slobber and left it that way for much of the set.
Does he know how to play the guitar?  (I know he does, at least a
little, by hearing his more song-oriented records but If I hadn't
ever heard those I would seriously wonder about his skill level.)  He
doesn't seem to have much of imagination, improvisationally.  It came
again and again as the same noise and growling distortion for each
"piece" of improv they performed, while Marclay continued to change
and make different sounds over the course of the night.  To his
credit he also sang spanish sounding words into the mic every once
and a while.  I'll leave it by saying that I lost some respect for
Arto that night.  I really enjoy his song-oriented records like Mundo
Civiizado and some others I have heard but his free-improv leaves a
lot to be desired.  Skuli Sverrisson joined in for the last two
improvs and he was great.  He played his instrument.

Chris Speed's Yeah No was fantastic.  This group is great!  I always
like watching Jim Black.  I love it when my friends who aren't all
into this music are impressed by Jim's playing.  It's hard not to be.
I have written so much already so I'll just say that this group gets
better and better.

Dan Hewins

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "fink stephane" <[e-mail]>
Subject: About japanese band
Date: 18 Jun 2000 14:32:06 GMT

   hello,

thanks to do something about experimental band, I love this music a punch in
my face each time I ear one.
But I'm interess about a Japanese band call "ruins" can you help me to take
contact with them, please.
And if you know some other experimental band from this crazy country, please
give me.
Sorry for my bad english but I'm french,Hey !,Hey !,Hey !!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jennifer Dahmus <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: DOWNTOWN 81 by Edo Bertoglio?
Date: 19 Jun 2000 17:07:46 -0400

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> A friend mentioned to me the upcoming release of the
> movie DOWNTOWN 81 by director Edo Bertoglio. The movie (if I read
correctly) is
> about the no-wave scene and features Jean-Michel Basquiat, Debby Harry,
> and many others (or is it mainly about Basquiat?).

Check out: http://www.downtown81.com

I've waited anxiously for the release of Downtown 81, which is Basquiat's
only acting role on film (excluding Blondie's "Rapture" video).  Finally
we'll hear Basquiat's band, Gray.  I've tried to track down a recording for
years.  Was anyone on this list lucky enough to see Gray live?

Jeni



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: SY in NYC review (was Re: syr4)
Date: 19 Jun 2000 17:57:51 -0400

Dan Hewins wrote:
>=20
> Well, I have to say that the SY show didn't impress me that much.

Coming from a non SY-fan, I thought they were OK, with a few pretty good
rock songs and a final number, the title track from the new record, that
came close to being Branca-esque. My main problem was the whole
traditional rock band showcase thing, where the group trots out old hits
and select cuts from the latest release. It just seems so tired. I had
little sense that any of the band members (with the possible exception
of O'Rourke) still possessed the capability of being surprised by what
each other was playing; it was more going through the motions, within a
tightly constricted format, for all the feedback and guitar noise. One
amusing moment: during most of the show, as is normal I guess, audience
members were shouting forth song suggestions (demands?). Moore at one
point took the mike and with a fist-pumping and mocking imitation
shouted, "Don Byron's Music for Twelve Musicians!!" Would've loved to
see an audience reaction shot.


> The Br=F6tzmann 10tet + 2 was pretty good. =20

I liked them well enough, though they seemed a bit ragged and possibly
under-rehearsed (Roy Campbell, doing lackluster sub duty for Kondo,
definitely missed his mark a couple of times). I kinda figured they'd
try to woo the crowd with a trademark Vandermark riff-based piece, but
instead they did one longer number (probably a Brotz composition, I'd
guess) that alternated Machine Gun-like walls of sound with various
duos/trios/quartets, etc. The few hundred Sonic Youth fans towards the
front of the crowd seemed to enjoy it reasonably well, though the number
of cell phone conversations going on was disconcerting ("Like, I don't
know, like there's this weird shit going on?"). They closed with a good
head of steam, including ferocious back to back solos on tenors from KV
and Brotz. Gustaffson joined Sonic Youth for the band's second encore,
an engaging skronk-fest.

Looking forward very much to hearing them at Tonic where, with a little
more gelling and a more comfortable and smaller space (and seats! these
ancient legs did yeoman's duty standing for four hours!), things should
work out better.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fred Frith: Technology Of Tears
Date: 19 Jun 2000 20:35:54 -0400

At 09:28 PM 6/18/00 +0000, [e-mail] wrote:
>a question: any of you know Frith's "Technology Of Tears"? Opinions? What
kind of music is it?

It's interesting to listen to this again in light of what Frith has done
since.  This is a suite of pieces for dance, mostly very rhythmic, a lot of
pulse-based and repetitive figures, and still fairly close to the RIO
aesthetic of Henry Cow, but also looking ahead to his more recent interest
in larger forms.  Frith overdubs most of the instruments himself (although
Zorn, Marclay, and Tenko are on half the album, and Jim Staley plays on a
couple of pieces too), which reinforces some of the rockish rhythmic
figures and doesn't leave as much room for virtuosity or improv as on some
of his other works.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

-- Satchel Paige

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sun Ra's "Space is the Place"
Date: 20 Jun 2000 01:11:58 GMT




>From: Greg Mills <[e-mail]>
>
>A friend of mine recently saw a Sun Ra film from the early 70s called
>"Space
>is the Place". Rather than a concert film, it has a plot, something about
>Sun Ra and the Arkestra riding around in a rocket ship thwarting the
>nefarious plans of the FBI.
>
>In trying to explain the look of the film, he said it was if Earth Wind and
>Fire were featured on an episode of "Shazam".
>
>Has anyone else seen this?

It's pure kitsch and blaxploitation parody--early seventies afros and
psychedelic clothes and Sun Ra having a Tarot card game with a pimp.  Ra's
best line is when he is the operator of the Outer Space Employment Agency
and is queried by a vagrant for a job.  When Ra asks what the man can do, he
responds "nothing."  So Ra offers to hire him to do "nothing."  Then the
vagrant asks what he will be paid.  And Ra responds "nothing."
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: SY in NYC review (was Re: syr4)
Date: 19 Jun 2000 22:42:27 EDT

a couple of my own opinions on the Br=F6tzmann/SY show:

for me, both the 10tet/12tet and Die Like A Dog are much better with=20
Toshinori Kondo (absent for this show, and for the whole US tour, I believe)=
=20
than with Roy Campbell. when you also factored in the poor acoustics and the=
=20
somewhat ragged play of the band (it was the first show of the tour, I'm=20
pretty sure), I didn't get too much out of this. they should be better at=20
Tonic, but Kondo still won't be there. it was nice to see all of the Sonic=20
Youth fans exposed to this music, though.

<<Moore at one point took the mike and with a fist-pumping and mocking=20
imitation

shouted, "Don Byron's Music for Twelve Musicians!!">>

what's really funny about this, which I didn't realize until I told someone=20
the story, is that Byron's record is actually called Music For SIx Musicians=
.

what was impressive to me about the SY set was the energy these guys put out=
,=20
especially Thurston. O'Rourke blended in well, mostly staying in the=20
background. my high points of the set were:

the raveup at the end of NYC Ghosts and Flowers.

the first encore, which was a Steve Shelley-less piece, with O'Rourke on=20
synth, Ranaldo on Korg, and Gustaffson jamming along. this piece was closer=20
to the O'Rourke/Gustaffson/Ikue Mori set at Tonic a few weeks ago than it wa=
s=20
to Sonic Youth.

the guitar break in the last encore, 100%, where all four guitarists used a=20
drumstick on their strings at once.

<<a more comfortable and smaller space (and seats! these

ancient legs did yeoman's duty standing for four hours!)>>

my legs were as stiff as anyone's, but the two shows and the break in betwee=
n=20
only lasted about three hours.=20

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mathieu Belanger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Brotzmann tentet + 2 [was: SY in NYC review]
Date: 19 Jun 2000 23:09:04 EDT

Hello,

> The Br=F6tzmann 10tet + 2 was pretty good.

Sorry for this little question. I know it seems a little late but I
simply kept forgetting to ask... Who are the "+2"? I am assuming the
line-up of the tentet did not change very much in the last year, but I
am curious to know who are the additionnal players,

Thank you,

Mathieu

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Brotzmann tentet + 2 [was: SY in NYC review]
Date: 19 Jun 2000 23:33:56 EDT


In a message dated 6/19/00 11:05:45 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Who are the "+2"? >>

Joe McPhee and Mars Williams.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brotzmann tentet + 2 [was: SY in NYC review]
Date: 20 Jun 2000 00:44:37 -0400

Was William Parker with them at the SY show?  I believe it was the Okka Disk
page that said he wasn't going to be playing either NY show (or was it just
at Tonic?).  Which is a shame if true, because he's been the highlight of
the groups I've seen him play with on several occasions.

-Jesse

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 11:33 PM


>
> In a message dated 6/19/00 11:05:45 PM, [e-mail]
writes:
>
> << Who are the "+2"? >>
>
> Joe McPhee and Mars Williams.
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brotzmann tentet + 2 [was: SY in NYC review]
Date: 20 Jun 2000 00:39:24 CDT

Weren't McPhee and Williams both part of the "original" Tentet (on the
recordings)?  So isn't it Campbell (or Kondo) and ________?

-----s: yes, anal


>From: [e-mail]
><< Who are the "+2"? >>
>
>Joe McPhee and Mars Williams.
>
>Jon
>www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 20 Jun 2000 13:16:18 CEST

>From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:24:49 -0400
>
>Arto, on the other hand, seemed to employ only one technique on his
>guitar and that was turn on the distortion and make noise.  As a
>preface I'll say that I don't want to sound disrespectful but I do
>want to describe what I saw as accurately as I can.  He didn't ever
>play any "notes" or even very many rhythms.  He tuned down the lowest
>string down to a slobber and left it that way for much of the set.
>Does he know how to play the guitar?  (I know he does, at least a
>little, by hearing his more song-oriented records but If I hadn't
>ever heard those I would seriously wonder about his skill level.)

Arto is great as a songwriter and singer - not a guitar player. About 10-15
years ago he decided to concentrate on these things and not to really learn
the guitar. On his latest CDs are lots of phantastic guitars played by Marc
Ribot, Vinicius Cantuaria, Romero Lubambo, Bill Frisell, Amadeo Pace... Arto
is still making the noise.

Andreas Dietz
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Big Gundown Anniversary Edition
Date: 20 Jun 2000 09:44:25 -0400

What's this BIG GUNDOWN 15th Anniversary Edition about?

Does it have extra tracks, liner notes, etc?

Thanks in advance

Neil
----

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "John L. Scott / Tonic" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Eyvind Kang's "The Story Of Iceland"
Date: 20 Jun 2000 11:01:10 -0400

>Got this album today, it's really quite hard to describe. Somewhere in
>between 7 NADEs and Theatre Of Mineral NADEs. The pieces are much longer
>and a bit more experimental than on the latter, but there aren't any
>noisefests like on the former. The first 5 tracks (which make up "The Story
>Of Iceland") focus on one nice little 'theme' (rest assured it isn't the
>NADE theme!) developing it in a few different ways, and inserting little
>bits of contrasting material here and there. The sixth track is kind of
>poppy, but with lots of layered singing and playing. Basically the layers
>build up till the end where it has become completely distorted. And the
>last track is a short gamelan solo.
>
>Anyway, my admittedly quite early impression is that it's generally good,
>but some of the longer repetitive ones tend to get boring (particularly the
>one described as 'kind of poppy' above).
>
>Incidentally some of the more well known musicians on there: Bar McKinnon,
>Tim Young, Keith Lowe, Tucker Martine, Bill Frisell... Trey Spruance is
>also cited as one of the recording engineers.
>
FYI: Eyvind is performing his "Dying Ground" project tonight at Tonic (9:30)
with the following line-up: Eyvind Kang (violin), Kato Hideki (bass), Calvin
Weston & Billy Martin (drums), Trey Spruance & Tim Young (guitar/keyboards).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Big Gundown Anniversary Edition
Date: 20 Jun 2000 17:31:09 +0200

hi neil!

where have you heard about this?

what label will it be on? elektra? tzadik?

i did a search on amazon, but they only listed the original issue.

patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kotik's Response to John Kennedy's post re 103
Date: 20 Jun 2000 11:51:38 -0400

PETR KOTIK'S RESPONSE TO KENNEDY LETTER:

Dear John Kennedy,

Here are a few comments on your email message regarding my recording of 103
by John Cage, a copy of which I have just received.

It is obvious that you have not taken the trouble to listen to the 103
recording in question; and what is more surprising, is that you have also
not
taken into account the music itself. I have no problem with personal
attacks,
but here you have attacked my work, my work ethics, and my music making
without an adequate professional base to do so. This is what prompted me to
answer your statement:

1) I worked continuously with John Cage from 1964 until his death in August,
1992. My extensive experience with Cage allows me to have a broad
perspective
on his music, ideas, and personality.

2) I have explained in detail in the liner notes of the Asphodel record
release of how Atlas Eclipticalis and 103 were prepared. If you wish to
debate this issue perhaps you should read the notes first.

3) Performance versions of Cage's music (something you refer to as an
"arrangement") is common practice and is sometimes explicitly required. It
assumes understanding of the music, and must be free of ideological baggage.
David Tudor did this throughout his life, and it is what I do every time it
is necessary.

4) The only thing which matters is the music itself.


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Big Gundown Anniversary Edition
Date: 20 Jun 2000 14:10:16 -0400

Can't add anything to the discussion of what's on this new issue of
'Gundown,' but it's on Tzadik, and the Nonesuch version is officially
out of print on July 1.

Steve
[e-mail]

patRice wrote:

> what label will it be on? elektra? tzadik?
>
> i did a search on amazon, but they only listed the original issue.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dying Ground (was RE: Eyvind Kang's "The Story Of Iceland")
Date: 20 Jun 2000 20:15:48 +0200

> FYI: Eyvind is performing his "Dying Ground" project tonight at Tonic
(9:30)
> with the following line-up: Eyvind Kang (violin), Kato Hideki (bass),
Calvin
> Weston & Billy Martin (drums), Trey Spruance & Tim Young
(guitar/keyboards).

DG is playing in Warsaw on Thusday, so, any info would be apreciated...
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brotz show
Date: 20 Jun 2000 12:40:45 -0700 (PDT)

>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:09:55 -0400
>From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
>Subject: SY in NYC review (was Re: syr4)

>The Br=F6tzmann 10tet + 2 was pretty good.  I think
>the venue was too
>large and open for them to sound good though.  They
>were mic'd and
>mixed like a rock band and that didn't sound so hot
>to
>me.  The
>composition wasn't that interesting to me either.  It

>seemed like
>full-on blasts from the whole group interspersed with

>sols and duos
>and trios improvising.

Isn't that the appeal though, that the huge group
breaks into pieces at points and creates various
combinations of the different musicians?  I think if
the whole band was jumping all the time things would
probably have to be more rigidly composed instead of a
looser, more texture oriented organization.  As
someone who is travelling from LA to see the fellows
in San Francisco, I just don't want to hear anything
negative.  :~)   Actually, I love Other Brothers also,
but that has composition and the smaller group improv
in it too doesn't it?

Ryan N.-  geeked up about seeing the show tonight


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Big Gundown Anniversary Edition
Date: 20 Jun 2000 16:40:09 -0400

Pat asked:

where have you heard about this?

what label will it be on? elektra? tzadik?
----------------

    I was looking in a place called TOWER RECORDS www.towerrecords.com (never
heard of it before) and there it was.  But there's no information, actually
it says "n/a".
    But there is another one (obviously the same one) that says:The Big Gundown
(Remaster) on TZADIK.  The release date is 8/22/00.

    Personally, I'm glad I haven't bought this one yet. :-)

Neil H. Enet
------------


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: the namesake
Date: 20 Jun 2000 18:45:11 -0600


>on that note why continue to call this the "zorn" list, as it covers all
>musicians on the scene? many of whom are proving to be more worthwhile
>than its namesake.

I'm not sure what 'scene' you're refering to.  Downtown NY or beyond?

In any event I would like to see a name change.  It seems like the "zorn"
list is a little bit of an inappropriate title for this list given the
spectrum covered.  Plus all the messages warning NO ZORN CONTENT are a
little odd to me.
But, I'm no zorn fan.  I never have been.

A new name would likely change the tone of the list a little bit.  The
future subscribers wouldn't necessarily be zorn fans but I don't think
that's a downside.

Relocation might also be an option.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: If it isn't broken............
Date: 20 Jun 2000 18:04:52 -0700

Please don't change anything about this list.

Mr. Rizzi does a fabulous job of managing things just the way they are,
called just what it is called.

This list ain't broke, and needs no fixing.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: new Murakami books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 00:08:05 EDT

well, unless the name of the list changes to murakami-l, I suppose this is
somewhat off-topic. but I know we discussed the works of Haruki Murakami here
a year or two ago, so I thought I'd let people know that there are two new
books available by him in English translations. the first is Norwegian Wood,
which he wrote in 1987, and the second is Underground, which is his most
recent book, a non-fiction book about the gas attacks in the Tokyo subway.

anyway, here's the catch: these are only available in Europe as of now.
Norwegian Wood is scheduled for US release in September and Underground seems
to have been dropped from Knopf's US schedule completely, at least for now.
but thanks to the wonders of the internet, those of us in the US can order
them from Amazon's UK site. the two of them cost me about $48 including
shipping, and got here within a few days after I ordered, making me a happy
guy.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: house of leaves
Date: 21 Jun 2000 00:50:24 -0400

As long as books are coming up again, I'll just add that I appreciate the
recommendations from the multi-national group here, and enjoyed the Lars
Gustafsson novel Death of a Beekeeper which was recommended here several
months ago.  I think our eclectic musical tastes must spill over into
literature as well.  It is these eclectic tastes and discussions that
categorize this discussion group.  The connection to Zorn is that his music
is equally eclectic, and he quite happily discusses all sorts of new art in
liner notes and interviews.  I also wouldn't change a thing about this list.

With this in mind, I'd also like to recommend the best new American fiction
I've seen in years, since Mason Dixon, Underworld, or Infinite Jest: House
of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski.  It's a first novel, with parallel tales
about a house that's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, and
the narration by the novel's first reader, a tattoo-parlor worker from
southern California.  The book has the most interesting use of fonts and
typographical expression that I've ever seen.  Some people might find it
gimmicky, but I found it very effective at telling a pretty creepy and
complex story.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

-- Satchel Paige

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: book recs
Date: 21 Jun 2000 06:02:23 GMT

Who cares about list names?


Book recommendations:

Michel Gaillot/Multiple Meaning Techno:  Political Laboratory of the
Present/Disvoir Press (contains an interview with the philosopher Jean-Luc
Nancy and one with a sociologist who's written on orgies--a smarter reading
of techno than one will get from most avant-garde heads, though he makes
little distinction regarding the forms)

Michael Hardt and Antonio Negri/Empire/Harvard UP (critique of
globablization--Negri still sits in an Italian prison for political
activities in the eighties)

Alphonso Lingis/Abuses/U California (travel narratives with a theoretical
accent)

Just bought a copy of Douglas Kahn's Wireless Imagination--precursor to
Noise/Water/Meat discussed here previously--also bought a copy of Ryo
Murakami's Coin Locker Babies at narita airport in Tokyo.  Will provide a
non-evaluative explication to all private queries....
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new Murakami books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:02:38 -0400

I haven't yet checked into Murakami but at least I've got one of his books on my
teeming "to be read" pile - 'South of the Border, West of the Sun.'  Managed to
pick this up recently at my former place of work, whose offices are in the same
building as Random House.  At least once a week RH would put several bookshelves
of books in the foyer opposite the company cafeteria on the 8th floor, free for
the taking.  I found the Murakami and remembered the discussion that had gone on
here, so I should get around to it soon.  Darn thing's autographed, too...

SS


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: [murakami-l] Re: new Murakami books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:33:47 EDT


In a message dated 6/21/00 2:03:14 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I haven't yet checked into Murakami but at least I've got one of his books
on my
teeming "to be read" pile - 'South of the Border, West of the Sun.' >>

this one's pretty good, but it's definitely a minor work. I'd recommend
starting with Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World or The Wind-Up
Bird Chronicle. the latter is as good as any book I've read in the past five
years.

<<Managed to pick this up recently at my former place of work, whose offices
are in the same building as Random House.  At least once a week RH would put
several bookshelves of books in the foyer opposite the company cafeteria on
the 8th floor, free for the taking.>>

one of the very few things I miss about working at Time is all the books and
CDs that were constantly laying around, also free for the taking. I probably
picked up a hundred Vintage International titles this way.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas's Witness playing Tonic in July
Date: 21 Jun 2000 02:52:55 -0400

Hi all:

For those of you who were disappointed to hear about the cancellation of
the JVC Festival's Dave Douglas show at Symphony Space in New York City
tomorrow night (Thurs. 6/21) that was to have featured the US premiere
of his new nonet project Witness, I received a bit of good news
tonight.  Witness will now be making its debut at Tonic on July 13 and
14.  What's more, on both nights the band shares a double bill with the
return of one of the rarest of Dave's projects, Thoughts About Mahfouz.
See ya there.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(no longer paid to talk about Dave, but happy to do so all the same...)
NP - Ellery Eskelin & Han Bennink, "Bud + Shake," 'Dissonant Characters'
(hatOLOGY)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: fas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: About japanese band
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:05:15 +0200

salut,

the official ruins homepage can be found at
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Kouen/9347/ruins.html

"this crazy country" refers to what? japan, usa or france?
every country is crazy in some sense, right?

if you live in paris, go to the "bladerunner" gig on july 5th
(john zorn, fred frith, bill laswell, dave lombardo).
the ruins will be in france on july 29th in marseille
and july 30th in paris.

enjoy,
f.


> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:32:06 GMT
> From: "fink stephane" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: About japanese band
>
>   hello,
>
> thanks to do something about experimental band, I love this music a punch in
>  my face each time I ear one.
> But I'm interess about a Japanese band call "ruins" can you help me to take
> contact with them, please.
> And if you know some other experimental band from this crazy country, please
> give me.
> Sorry for my bad english but I'm french,Hey !,Hey !,Hey !!!!!!

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Dave Douglas's Witness playing Tonic in July
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:06:50 +0200

> For those of you who were disappointed to hear about the cancellation of
> the JVC Festival's Dave Douglas show at Symphony Space in New York City
> tomorrow night (Thurs. 6/21) that was to have featured the US premiere
> of his new nonet project Witness, I received a bit of good news
> tonight.  Witness will now be making its debut at Tonic on July 13 and
> 14.  What's more, on both nights the band shares a double bill with the
> return of one of the rarest of Dave's projects, Thoughts About Mahfouz.

It may seem old news for you on the list but it must be said  that:
The NYC guys have just to much fun ;-)
I hope at least that the crime rate is raising there (OF COURSE this is
intended as a joke).

Isn't witness his string thing with sax and electronics? Can anybody tell me
anything about it?
and what is that 'Thoughts about Mahfouz'?


Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: murakami / miyuki miyabe
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:51:11 +0200

[e-mail] wrote:
>
>
> this one's pretty good, but it's definitely a minor work. I'd recommend
> starting with Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World
can only second this recommendation. "hard-boiled wonderland..." is
absolutely fantastic. two stories happening at the same time, that are
not two stories, that are two stories. got it? (not sure if i did ;-))

another book by a japanese writer i really like was miyuki miyabe's "all
she was worth". it's a pity no other english translations of her works
are available.

"all she was worth" is a crime story. a guy wants to get married to a
girl, finds out she is not the person she pretended to be, and just
disappears. the guy asks his uncle, a policeman, to investigate and find
her for him. the book is about this chase. i really enjoyed it!

if anyone is interested in stuff by other japanese writers, let me know.
i've got quite a bit of a collection by now.

yours,
patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: lars gustaffson (writer) (was: book of leaves)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:51:17 +0200

Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> and enjoyed the Lars
> Gustafsson novel Death of a Beekeeper which was recommended here several
> months ago.

i'm still waiting for this to arrive in the post, and am looking forward
to it.

i read gustaffson's "stories of happy people" (a collection of short
stories) which was great. unusual way of writing, imho, and the stories
have some sort of weird touch to them. i can only recommend this!

yours,
patRice

np: (nothing! silence is a rhythm, too...)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:56:42 +0200

As there were two positive reactions to Gustaffson's books i recomended few
months ago (that makes me quite happy, i must say...), I try to post some
other book info:

1) I'm a great fan of L.F. Celine, especially 'mort a credit' (in english
it's 'death on installment plan', if i remember correctly). 'Voyage au bout
de la nuit' (it should be 'travel to the end of night'), 'd'un chateau
l'autre' (from one castle another?) and 'entretiens avec professeur Y' are
also great. The 'chateau' are a little bit difficult to read - and there
could be serious problems with translation. 'Prof Y' is a great thing: a
kind of pseudo - interview with LF Celine he wrote himself. Celine should be
THE writer for hardcore 'torture garden' fans (although not for the Masada
addicts...;-).

2) Three other scandinavian writers.
    First, Sven Delblanc: i know his 'gunnar emanuel', which is really ok, a
very funnily written book, 'night over  jerusalem' - a pseudo biblical
strory, 'esperanza' which is really fascinating - a story about a young, 18
year old idealist form XVIII-century Sweden who was send to america: his
ship sinked, and he was taken in full sea by a slave transport, whose owners
supposed to get some big money from his parents. The ship does not arrive
anywhere, and the goy's ideals disapear... quite fun reading. His best,
however, is  'river of memeory', which describes the life of a small town.
Surrealist elements invade the whole thing. It's incredible, VERY seriously
recommended.

       Second, Tajrei Vesaas. I read his 'ice castle' (for all those
scandinavian books i'm not sure of the english titles. The norwegian title
is 'is-slottet'), which is really INCREDIBLE. A subtle story about two
little girls, of which one dies in ice. Quite unknown, but really
incredible.

    Third, Jens Bjornboe. I read two of his novels:  "The sharks", a
maritime story, a bit condradesque, but really OK. The second one may be
more interesting: it's a part of the cycle called 'the history of brutality'
(again, the translation is mine and from polish, so...) and is called 'the
moment of liberty'. It's very violent, it tells a chaotic story of a life.
It starts quite normally, but after about forty pages STRANGE thing
appear...

3) I could also recommend a polish writer who is great, but can be not well
known outside Poland: Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz 'Witkacy'. He wrote very
funny, surrealist books and great drama (he was also an intersting painter).
The 'farewell to automn', '622 falls of Bungo', and 'insatibility'
(translation of the titles is mine) are great, as well as all his dramas.
Dunno if they've been translated into English (although I think they were).

BTW, are there any Philip Dick fans around here ( he's quite well known so i
do not knw if he neeeds any recomendation)?
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: "bladerunner"
Date: 21 Jun 2000 15:18:49 +0200


>From: fas <[e-mail]>
>To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: About japanese band
>Date: woe, 21 jun 2000 10:05

> if you live in paris, go to the "bladerunner" gig on july 5th
> (john zorn, fred frith, bill laswell, dave lombardo).
>
> enjoy,
> f.
>
Hello,

I live in Belgium but I have the intention to go to the Zorn-concert in
Paris (it's not that far away). As I wasn't at La Villette or the Paris Jazz
Festival before, I wanted to ask if it's possible it will be sold out. So,
is it necessary to buy a ticket a few days before (and if so, where can I do
this?), or can I simply buy my ticket at the entrance itself?

Kind regards, Ari.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Marsh" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 09:39:51 +0100


Dan wrote:
>>
>>Arto, on the other hand, seemed to employ only one technique on his
>>guitar and that was turn on the distortion and make noise.  As a
>>preface I'll say that I don't want to sound disrespectful but I do
>>want to describe what I saw as accurately as I can.  He didn't ever
>>play any "notes" or even very many rhythms.  He tuned down the lowest
>>string down to a slobber and left it that way for much of the set.
>>Does he know how to play the guitar?  (I know he does, at least a
>>little, by hearing his more song-oriented records but If I hadn't
>>ever heard those I would seriously wonder about his skill level.)

>Andreas wrote:

>Arto is great as a songwriter and singer - not a guitar player. About 10-15
>years ago he decided to concentrate on these things and not to really learn
>the guitar. On his latest CDs are lots of phantastic guitars played by Marc
>Ribot, Vinicius Cantuaria, Romero Lubambo, Bill Frisell, Amadeo Pace... Arto
>is still making the noise.

I'm not much of a fan of Arto's solo stuff but I must defend his guitar
playing, which is noise generation of the highest order...one of the few
guitarists who can effectively create the aural equivalent of a car
accident. What he does is obviously nothing to do with conventional
technique so it makes no sense to criticise it on that level (in the same
way that it would be pointless to criticise Derek Bailey for not playing any
tunes...). What it comes down to is whether the noise he makes floats your
boat (or not). If it doesn't, that's fine, but technique in the Berklee
sense is really not the issue here...

cheers


Peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Big Gundown Anniversary Edition
Date: 21 Jun 2000 09:28:20 -0400

Will this reissue include new material (i.e. tracks, liner notes, out takes)
or does it simply constitute a change in ownership rights from Elektra to
Tzadik?  I doubt the new release will be worth the money if one already owns
the original. I have been known to be wrong, though.
Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 14:36:13 +0100

>I'm not much of a fan of Arto's solo stuff but I must defend his guitar
playing, which is noise generation of the highest order..<snip>


absolutely peter. i couldn't agree more. the arto lindsay group live
at in london a couple of months ago was perhaps one of the best gigs
i've ever been to, and it had everything to do with arto's playing -
particularly in collaboration with the awesome rhythm section - he's
a true rhythm guitarist - and in sharp contrast to vinicius
cantuaria's playing - two utterly different approaches to the guitar,
making total sense together. i love his guitar playing (you can also
catch him on the recently (re?)issued soundtrack to "down by law" by
john lurie, where he's listed as arto "guitar" lindsay ...

anyway, good point well made, peter.

cheers,
dan.


--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [21.6.2000]:
< indo | amon tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere |
graham haynes | zed bias >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Names
Date: 21 Jun 2000 09:42:14 -0400

I have been a tad confused by why the name of this list is Zorn List.  I've
only been subscribing for a short while and quite frankly don't care about
some of the things discussed.  For instance I don't get to New York too
frequently, so that leaves my concert going options limited.  I do find some
things very informative and some of the exchanges witty.  I've found out a
lot about Zorn and my horizons have been broadened beyond Zorn as well.  I
say change the name so newbies know what they're getting.  It is some what
disappointing if you are looking for a dedicated Zorn mailing list.  There's
two things wrong with the list,  the name and the fact that people take
themselves way too seriously.  Learn to laugh at yourself.

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jason and jill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Names
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:10:55 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 21 Jun 2000, &c. wrote:

> disappointing if you are looking for a dedicated Zorn mailing list.  There's
> two things wrong with the list,  the name and the fact that people take
> themselves way too seriously.  Learn to laugh at yourself.

I'd suggest you do the same thing.

There's no reason for the list to be any more focused than Zorn himself
is.

More to the point, someone looking for tight-sphinctered, anal
retentive little community shouldn't be listening to Zorn in the first
place. If someone unsubs b/c they want a dedicated, Zorn-centric list,
is that really a loss? ;)

A very small opinion, b/c I just subbed very recently myself, but when
the first messages that came through talked about Japanese fiction and
Dave Douglas concerts, I saw this list was just what I expected it to
be.

Jason


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:16:54 CEST

>From: "Peter Marsh" <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:39:51 +0100
>
>I'm not much of a fan of Arto's solo stuff but I must defend his guitar
>playing, which is noise generation of the highest order...one of the few
>guitarists who can effectively create the aural equivalent of a car
>accident. What he does is obviously nothing to do with conventional
>technique so it makes no sense to criticise it on that level (in the same
>way that it would be pointless to criticise Derek Bailey for not playing
>any
>tunes...). What it comes down to is whether the noise he makes floats your
>boat (or not). If it doesn't, that's fine, but technique in the Berklee
>sense is really not the issue here...
>

I┤m not criticising Arto in a Berklee sense. I┤m a great Arto fan,
especially his solo stuff, but as he points out in recent interviews, he┤s
defining himself not as a guitarist and that┤s well put.

There are lots of other great musicians who are/were not great
instrumentalists: Sun Ra, Carla Bley, Thelonious Monk... and some other
virtuosos with a lack in conception and they have/had there best moments as
a sideman: James Carter, Marc Ribot, Eric Dolphy...

Andreas Dietz


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: should we change this list's name? (was: Re: Names)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:20:40 +0200

&c. wrote:
>
> lot about Zorn and my horizons have been broadened beyond Zorn as well.  I
> say change the name so newbies know what they're getting.

and i say we should NOT change the name.
(somebody else already said it: if it ain't broke, why fix it?)

i first subscribed to this list because i was a fan of john zorn, but am
happy that through that interest i learned so many more new things
through this list.

> It is some what
> disappointing if you are looking for a dedicated Zorn mailing list.

i first thought it would cover nothing but zorn, and was not
disappointed at all when it turned out i was wrong.

it depends on nothing but the subscribers' contributions.

therefore, if a subscriber feels he/she would prefer a list that
tolerates no mail that has no direct zorn-relating topic - hell, it's
quite easy nowadays setting up your own list; e.g. through egroups.

patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: [murakami-l] OT: More Japanese literature
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:29:12 -0400

At 2:33 AM -0400 6/21/00, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>this one's pretty good, but it's definitely a minor work. I'd recommend
>starting with Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World or The Wind-Up
>Bird Chronicle. the latter is as good as any book I've read in the past five
>years.

Both of these are good--_Bird Chronicle_ particularly.  But don't
overlook his earlier book _A Wild Sheep Chase_.  It's a short, very
readable masterwork.  It begins very normally, and slowly, steadily
slips into the strange (not unlike some Kobo Abe, like _The Ruined
Map_--but better).  I recommend it highly.  (Unfortunately, I found
_Dance, Dance, Dance_, the "sequel" to _Sheep Chase_, to be a vast
disappointment.)

Since I've brought up Abe, (and to go off-topic from the Murakami
thread) I've got to say that _The Box Man_ is another mind-blowingly
great book.  Disturbing, but great.

And does anyone else find it amusing that a few people are angry
about this being called the zorn-list?  "Zorn," after all, is "anger"
in German, right?  So if they're angry about it, maybe the name is
appropriate....

Cheers,
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:39:57 -0400

At 4:16 PM -0400 6/21/00, Andreas Dietz wrote:
>
>There are lots of other great musicians who are/were not great
>instrumentalists: Sun Ra, Carla Bley, Thelonious Monk... and some
>other
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh, I'm going to have to take exception on this one.  You ever hear
the complete
Riverside recordings?  If you're thinking of some of those minor
seconds, say, or some of the more "off-kilter" voicings or whatever,
I've always heard them as deliberate--a following of his own vision,
if you will--rather than as mistakes. Or maybe I don't share your
definition of "great instrumentalist." (For example,could he fit into
someone else's band and not stand out as "Monk"?  I don't know.)

I've got to say, though, that the distinction you point out here
(great musician/not so good instrumentalist, virtuoso/not so good
conceptualist) is definitely thought-provoking.  Thanks for starting
that off.

Two posts from me in one day.  Man, what a breakneck pace.

Best,
--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Terwilliger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: should we change this list's name? (was: Re: Names)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:43:11 -0400

Actually, when this list was first started, it was called John Zorn (and
other downtown musicians)

-Sean


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: dying ground
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:52:03 -0500


> DG is playing in Warsaw on Thusday, so, any info would be apreciated..

i saw the expanded dying ground at the knit last year. it was nothing like the
record (which i love) and was not even that good. maybe i was just disappointed
at the complete change in sound. i remember it as a jumbled attempt at pop
instrumental a la bacharach. i'm sure i'm selling it short, but i know i wasn't
pleased.

but maybe if you forget the 'dying ground' connection and consider it a kang
show, and if you just really wanna see the players, you'll enjoy it. kang misses
as much as he hits with me.

btw, i think it's a testiment to mr. z that this list is as diverse and
occasionally combative as it is. there are few artists who work in, promote and
call attention to as wide a spectrum of expression as he does (through his
labels, the visuals and other things cited on his own releases, his one-time top
10 lists on the web site, etc.) i was surprised to see someone say they're not
even a zornfan, but then maybe i shouldn't be. it just adds to the sorta mix jz
himself seems to enjoy. changing the list name, in any event, would be silly.

leastways, i think.

np: charlie johnson "the boy in the boat"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Jon Mooneyham)
Subject: Re: should we change this list's name? NO!
Date: 21 Jun 2000 09:51:52 -0500

The Zorn-list is just fine as is.

I subscribed as a Zorn fan, and I've not been disappointed. I think few
discussions here can be construed as off-topic, insofar as they mirror and
expand on various Zornic interests and connections... and the Tzadik
catalog alone presents a fine case for just how far afield a thread can
ramble and still be germane.

Further, the general qualitative level of exchanges here is far, far higher
than any other list I'm on - gobs of (mostly) well-reasoned information on
all manner of arcana and minutiae. (Except for debates like this one...
8P~ )

And I haven't been to NYC in fifteen years - all the, uh, "scene reports"
both make me drool with envy *and* thank Yahweh I don't live there ('cause
I would be one sad broke motherfucker after blowing all my $$ going to all
those shows)...

Jon M.

_________________________
Radio Free Norman
96.7 FM



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bob Kowalski" <[e-mail]>
Subject: evan lurie
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:35:57 -0400

Anyone familiar with the following release?  =20

Evan Lurie and Yoshitada Minami, Sony

Its listed on the Marc Ribot site discography and as a HUGE fan of all =
things Evan (Lurie, that is) if he really has a duet album than I must =
seek it out.  Is this a typo?  If not, anyone know where to find it?

Cheers=20

BK



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn-list / its name, etc. (was: murakami)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 17:49:30 +0200

Maurice Rickard wrote:


> And does anyone else find it amusing that a few people are angry
> about this being called the zorn-list?  "Zorn," after all, is "anger"
> in German, right?  So if they're angry about it, maybe the name is
> appropriate....

good point! you made me chuckle!

(and yes, it is true that zorn means anger in german.)

yours,
patRice

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: should we change this list's name? (was: Re: Names)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 08:51:28 -0700

> lot about Zorn and my horizons have been broadened beyond Zorn as well.  =
I say change the name so newbies know what they're getting.=20

Consider Zorn's scope and you'll realize the discussion is (mostly) about =
Zorn alumni or kindred spirits.

> It is some what disappointing if you are looking for a dedicated Zorn =
mailing list. =20

Well considering Zorn's scope, this list is right on target... He plays =
with nearly everyone in Japan and New York, so they all get discussed due =
to their involvement with Zorn, his compositional and improv esthetics, =
etc. That's what Zorn is about.

Finally... I wouldn't have found this list had Zorn's name not been =
attached to it.=20

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: dolphymonk!!
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:42:08 -0500


ok, i gotta say it, peter, even if your larger point is a good one. monk not an
instrumentalist?!? listen to his left hand plop as his right hand sprinkles.
listen to his solo stuff. listen with your eyes closed. i dunno, dude, listen!

and while the head is still swimming: dolphy has a lack of conception!?! good
god, man. 'out to lunch' is one of the single best jazz recordings ever. easily.

oh, and i saw john zorn play last night. there. now i belong on the list again.

kg (laughing at himself dutifully)

np: fletcher henderson "variety stomp"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: SY in Boston + new Thurston CD (was SY in NYC)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 12:37:27 EDT

I thought I'd jump in with my 2 and 1/2 cents on this...I got to see the
Boston SY show (also with O'Rourke, who's doing the whole tour apparently)
and even hang out backstage afterwords and chat with them all (no coke
backstage, by the way...just Coca-Cola!).  I've been a big SY fan since
Sister, and probably seen about 10 shows by now....I was REALLY excited to
see them, as the last time I'd seen them was in NYC (with David Ware opening)
and that show had been SOOO amazing!  At the NY show a year ago they had
played about 2 hours, and did alot of extended jams that were simply
transcendant...their control over feedback, etc. had just gotten "better with
age".  Anyway, the Boston show was great also, but not as long (maybe an hour
and 15?) and much different...It was much more "song oriented" instead of jam
oriented, and of course, O'Rourke was playing... But I thought they played a
fantastice set none-the-less.  Anyway else see it?

Also thought I'd mention that for those of you interested in Moore's improv
leanings, I'm releasing a CD by him in a trio with saxophonist Wally Shoup
(who grew up playing improv with LaDonna Smith and Davey Williams in
Birmingham, AL and has since relocated to Washington where he's been running
the Seattle Improvised Music Festival for 15 years) and percussionist Toshi
Makihara from Philly.  It was recorded live at a show I put on last September
in Harvard Square.  That was the night that Hurricane Floyd hit, and we went
ahead with the show anyway.  200 people braved the storm to see the show (the
FIRST time they'd EVER played together actually!) and it garnered great
critical reviews in such pubs. as the Boston Phoenix and even Spare Change
(our "Homeless Paper"!).  Thurston also did a solo acoustic guitar set that
night, and the CD includes one piece from that set (called "Altar Boy, Church
Basement"...he he he...)

The CD is at the manufacturer at this very moment, and will be available for
purchase on Monday (June 26th).  It's Sublingual Records # SLR007: HURRICANE
FLOYD, and you can read some of the press quotes from the performance (as
well as getting ordering info) at WWW.SUBLINGUAL.COM

Jonathan LaMaster
[e-mail]

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:17:05 -0700


On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:56:42 +0200  "Marcin Gokieli" wrote:
>
> 1) I'm a great fan of L.F. Celine, especially 'mort a credit' (in english
> it's 'death on installment plan', if i remember correctly). 'Voyage au bout
> de la nuit' (it should be 'travel to the end of night'), 'd'un chateau
> l'autre' (from one castle another?) and 'entretiens avec professeur Y' are
> also great. The 'chateau' are a little bit difficult to read - and there

Nothing compared, for exemple, with GUIGNOL'S BAND, which is almost
impossible to read in French (I gave up after 50 pages -- a frustrating
experience since it was the first time I was giving up on a novel that
I thought was fantastic but could not read). I am wondering how the
translation could be. But since there are people reading Japanese
litterature translated in French from English translations...

> BTW, are there any Philip Dick fans around here ( he's quite well known so i
> do not knw if he neeeds any recomendation)?

Count me there! Does anybody else write as nightmarish stories as THREE
STIGMATAS OF PALMER ELDRICH? If yes, I am open to recommendations.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Graves <[e-mail]>
Subject: Thoughts on Mahfouz
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:22:22 -0400 (EDT)

to the person who asked about Mahfouz:

I saw Dave and Mahfouz at the KF Old Office a year (or two?) ago. The band
is Jamie Saft on organ, Ikue Mori doing her drum electronics, Kenny
Wolleson and Dave playing trumpet and some electronic setup with CD and
tape players, samplers and lots of pedals. It sounded like a small group
"Sanctuary" with very loose, free compositions. Great group, but I don't
think they plan to release any albums, at least according to Bruce at
Downtown Music Gallery. The name comes from a writer from the middle east
(Egpyt I think...), but I don't know anything about him. Anyone else know
who Mahfouz is/was?

Jamie


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:23:09 -0700


>Andreas wrote:
>
>Arto is great as a songwriter and singer - not a guitar player. About 10-15
>years ago he decided to concentrate on these things and not to really learn
>the guitar. On his latest CDs are lots of phantastic guitars played by Marc
>Ribot, Vinicius Cantuaria, Romero Lubambo, Bill Frisell, Amadeo Pace... Arto
>is still making the noise.

Arto made an art of non-playing guitar.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn and Prelapse at Tonic- June 22nd!
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:28:47 EDT

Attention New York City area Zornsters!  Don't forget- Zorn and Prelapse at
Tonic tomorrow night, Thursday June 22nd, 8pm.  Last night's DYING GROUND gig
was excellent!  Zorn stopped in briefly to check it out after his brief,
unadvertised gig at the Knit with Yoshida Tatsuya (of the RUINS).

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 10:30:07 -0700

>> BTW, are there any Philip Dick fans around here ( he's quite well known =
so i do not knw if he neeeds any recomendation)?

> Count me there! Does anybody else write as nightmarish stories as THREE =
STIGMATAS OF PALMER ELDRICH? If yes, I am open to recommendations. =
Patrice.

It's interesting to me how much PKD resonates with many of my musician =
friends, while many others I've introduced him to think he's just weird or =
not "real" science fiction etc. Strange.

I love the final trilogy of Valis, Transmigration of Timothy Archer and =
Radio Free Albemuth.

I'd also highly recommend A Scanner Darkly, Maze of Death, Now Wait for =
Last Year, UBIK... His "mainstream" stuff is also good reading... The =
Broken Bubble, The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly Alike...

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:38:55 -0400

At 10:30 AM -0700 6/21/00, Mike Biffle wrote:
>I love the final trilogy of Valis, Transmigration of Timothy Archer
>and Radio Free Albemuth.
>
>I'd also highly recommend A Scanner Darkly, Maze of Death, Now Wait
>for Last Year, UBIK... His "mainstream" stuff is also good
>reading... The Broken Bubble, The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly
>Alike...
>

I'm down with PKD as well.  _VALIS_ has that quality of integrating
the strange so well into the mundane that you can find yourself
convinced of its possibility.  Funny, I always thought that the final
trilogy was _VALIS_, _The Divine Invasion_, and _Transmigration_, and
that _Albemuth_ was a first attempt at what would later be _VALIS_.
Anyone have confirmation either way?

Thanks for the other recommendations, too.

--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [zorn] tag in subject ?
Date: 21 Jun 2000 14:26:15 -0400

hi.
i recently switched email address for a couple of lists to my hotmail
address. now i'm horrified to find out that hotmail cannot filter on
'To' address! only from address and subject! now i wonder if there is
any objection against automatically adding a tag [zorn] to the
subject of every posting (i hope the list admin reads this...).
thanks
robert


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Marclay/Arto
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:39:06 +0200

> instrumentalists: Sun Ra, Carla Bley, Thelonious Monk... and some other
> virtuosos with a lack in conception and they have/had there best moments
as
> a sideman: James Carter, Marc Ribot, Eric Dolphy...

I'll fight to death for dolphy's 'Out to lunch'. Any volounteers for a
crusade ;-)?
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:51:38 +0200

Patrice L Roussell wrote (quoting me)
> > 1) I'm a great fan of L.F. Celine, especially 'mort a credit' (in
english
> > it's 'death on installment plan', if i remember correctly). 'Voyage au
bout
> > de la nuit' (it should be 'travel to the end of night'), 'd'un chateau
> > l'autre' (from one castle another?) and 'entretiens avec professeur Y'
are
> > also great. The 'chateau' are a little bit difficult to read - and there
>
> Nothing compared, for exemple, with GUIGNOL'S BAND, which is almost
> impossible to read in French (I gave up after 50 pages -- a frustrating
> experience since it was the first time I was giving up on a novel that
> I thought was fantastic but could not read). I am wondering how the
> translation could be. But since there are people reading Japanese
> litterature translated in French from English translations...

I had a similiar experience with 'Feerie pour une autre fois' (the title is
already hard enough to translate...) . Incredible thing, but I just could
not read it.

> > BTW, are there any Philip Dick fans around here ( he's quite well known
so i
> > do not knw if he neeeds any recomendation)?
>
> Count me there! Does anybody else write as nightmarish stories as THREE
> STIGMATAS OF PALMER ELDRICH? If yes, I am open to recommendations.

Just try 'A scanner Darkly' and ' flow my tears, the policeman said'.
'Valis' trilogy can be intersting, but IMO its better to read some other PKD
stuff before.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: [murakami-l] OT: More Japanese literature
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:42:11 +0200

Muaric Rickard wrote:
> Since I've brought up Abe, (and to go off-topic from the Murakami
> thread) I've got to say that _The Box Man_ is another mind-blowingly
> great book.  Disturbing, but great.

Is Abe the author of a book 'a women from the dunes' (or something like it -
again i got it in polish translation)? If so, i give my voice for this
author.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: Names
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:32:19 +0200

Zach wrote:
>  I've found out a
> lot about Zorn and my horizons have been broadened beyond Zorn as well.  I
> say change the name so newbies know what they're getting.  It is some what
> disappointing if you are looking for a dedicated Zorn mailing list.

One thing i like about this list is that it is not limited to the questions
like 'is yamatsuke eye' the same person as yamantaka eye' or 'what kind of
sax JZ uses'.  I find it natural for people who like JZ to listen to other
stuff as well. More - it would be strange to be a 'zorn fan' in the sense to
not listening to other stuff (maybe even more then JZ). The whole image of a
'fan' that we got from the pop culture - a guy who cries when a guitarist
leaves a band, who buy every record even if there is just a new version of
an old song new on it - is quite disgusting IMO. For example, the
fripp/crimson list is much more boring then zl just because there's only
talk about the last cd, 'is fripp going to change guitar', 'what is a
fernandez sustainer' etc. They've got their advantages (just look to the
website www.elephant-talk.com! It's faboulous!), and it would be hard to get
such a 'no problem loose subject' conversation as here because of the number
of KC fans comapred to JZ fans, but the thing remains: ET is boring zornlist
is not. People who like JZ and want to talk just drop in, and that's all.
I'm not at all disturbed by NYC announcements (ok they make me a litle bit
angry...). And you always have the subject... (ok except if it's RE: zdigest
2388).
Just my two cents,
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:58:30 +0200

> I'm down with PKD as well.  _VALIS_ has that quality of integrating
> the strange so well into the mundane that you can find yourself
> convinced of its possibility.  Funny, I always thought that the final
> trilogy was _VALIS_, _The Divine Invasion_, and _Transmigration_, and
> that _Albemuth_ was a first attempt at what would later be _VALIS_.
> Anyone have confirmation either way?

AFAIK what you say is correct. The source would be a biography  i read, a
got one (an american author whose name i forgot, with PKD photo on cover...)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 7:38 PM


> At 10:30 AM -0700 6/21/00, Mike Biffle wrote:
> >I love the final trilogy of Valis, Transmigration of Timothy Archer
> >and Radio Free Albemuth.
> >
> >I'd also highly recommend A Scanner Darkly, Maze of Death, Now Wait
> >for Last Year, UBIK... His "mainstream" stuff is also good
> >reading... The Broken Bubble, The Man Whose Teeth Were All Exactly
> >Alike...
> >
>
> Thanks for the other recommendations, too.
>
> --
> Maurice Rickard
> http://mauricerickard.com/
>
> -
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 20:56:09 +0200

Mike Biffle <[e-mail]> wrote: (About Philip Dick)
>His "mainstream" stuff is also good reading... The Broken Bubble, The Man
Whose Teeth Were >All Exactly Alike...

Confession of a crap artist is also great... What is The Broken Bubble

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"
----- Original Message -----


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 11:14:00 -0700

> I'm down with PKD as well.  _VALIS_ has that quality of integrating the =
strange so well into the mundane that you can find yourself convinced of =
its possibility.  Funny, I always thought that the final trilogy was =
_VALIS_, _The Divine Invasion_, and _Transmigration_, and that _Albemuth_ =
was a first attempt at what would later be _VALIS_. Anyone have confirmatio=
n either way?

You're absolutely correct... I was in "automatic" writing mode and excited =
that PKD is popping up as an influence. The Divine Invasion is absolutely =
amazing... The biblical tie ins in all of them are just mind boggling. =
Really great twisted informed takes on the document...=20

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Kobo Abe
Date: 21 Jun 2000 15:12:51 -0400

At 8:42 PM +0200 6/21/00, Marcin Gokieli wrote:
>
>Is Abe the author of a book 'a women from the dunes' (or something like it -
>again i got it in polish translation)? If so, i give my voice for this
>author.

Yes, he's the same guy. It's _Woman in the Dunes_ in the English
translation; I have no idea of the original Japanese title.   As a
topic, he certainly isn't out of place on the list, since his books
tended to explore his (often disturbing) obsessions.

--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject:  [zorn] tag in subject
Date: 21 Jun 2000 15:20:37 -0500


> any objection against automatically adding a tag [zorn] to the
> subject of every posting (i hope the list admin reads this...).

well, that would certainly take care of the 'no content' problem.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 12:20:40 -0700

>>His "mainstream" stuff is also good reading... The Broken Bubble, The =
Man Whose Teeth Were >All Exactly Alike...

> Confession of a crap artist is also great... What is The Broken Bubble

Another of his so-called mainstream novels... wrtten in 1988 right after =
1987's Mary and the Giant. Both are fairly melancholy books and seem =
semi-autobigraphical... (main character works in a record store) etc. I =
like both nearly equally.

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ladew <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #970
Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:30:17 -0400 (EDT)

<Zach wrote in zorn-list #790:

<I have been a tad confused by why the name of this list is Zorn <List. I've
only been subscribing for a short while and <quite ,frankly don't care about
some of the things discussed. <For instance I don't get to New York too
frequently, so that <leaves my concert going options limited. I do find some
<things very informative and some of the exchanges witty. I've <found out a
lot about Zorn and my horizons have been broadened <beyond Zorn as well. I
say change the name so newbies know what <they're getting. It is some what
disappointing if you are <looking for a dedicated Zorn mailing list.>>

well, here's the thing:  zorn-list has been going strong for many years now,
and despite the fact that many artists are discussed here, I find the list
quite focused in terms of modern, creative/experimental/whatever its being
called this week music.  I'm sure some people who have been posting/lurking
for several years could back me up on this.

the problem with focusing just on zorn is that there isn't always news, so a
lot of people on the list will be left with questions like what is Naked
City/Masada/etc. like?  These are all great questions, but with no new Zorn
content to talk about a lot of the great side discussions/arguments
featuring Zorn sidepeo[ple would go away.

maybe someone should start a "zorn-list-newbie" group or something
comprable.

NP:  Anthrax "Among The Living" (who says we zorn-listers take ourselves too
seriously??)

Rich Ladew
[e-mail]


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: fas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: "Balderunner"
Date: 21 Jun 2000 22:43:53 +0200

hey!

i have never been there either but someone posted the phone number
of the villette jazz festival in paris a few weeks ago in
this mailing list:

> They're also playing in Paris at La Villette Jazz festival
> on the 5th July - tel [phone].

just call there!

f.

ps: i will go see them in london on july 3rd at the barbican centre.
   (+44/(0)20/7638-8891)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: should we change this list's name? (was: Re: Names)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 16:52:14 -0400

I am for a name change.

I personally don't like the fact that this list is the "Zorn" list
because it makes me feel like it's zorn-centric, which I don't feel
it is.  I wouldn't say Zorn is in the top handful of my favorite
artists, and frankly there is a lot of stuff that he does (musically,
and otherwise) that I don't like.  I am subscribed because I am
interested in the NYC Downtown scene, European improv, and some 20th
Century composers.  Basically, I think it would be safe to say that
we're all interested in "modern (or contemporary) creative improvised
music."  Perhaps avant-garde or progressive has to be a part of the
music...  In any case, I perfer not to be called a "fellow zorn-head"
or "zornie" or whatever other zorn names have been inflicted upon all
members of the list.

My feelings also stem from the fact that I don't want to contribute
to the inflation the ego of Mr. Zorn any more than I can help it.  By
discussing the wide, WIDE range of musics we all love under the the
moniker "Zorn List" I feel that that is what we are doing.

I don't agree with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" because there is
always room for improvement with anything.

Dan Hewins

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: should we change this list's name? (was: Re: Names)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:59:06 -0700

>>>I don't agree with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" because there is
always room for improvement with anything.<<<

Ending this thread would improve things.







-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn@angelorensanz follow-up (long - too long)
Date: 21 Jun 2000 13:07:54 +0100

hi all

well, a couple of people got in touch after i expressed surprise that
no-one else had commented on the zorn chamber works show at the angel
orensanz foundation as part of the bell atlantic festival (inc. the
great stephen drury, who was very clearly there!)

so i thought i'd write about it anyway ... particularly after it was
pointed out to me that there appears to be less emphasis on zorn's
music for acoustic instruments on the zorn-l ...

as to this relative quietness, i guess that with an artist like zorn,
who has covered so much musical ground (albeit with strong continuity
across all genres), the zorn-list is bound to represent a fairly
diverse bunch of tastes (which is why the zorn-l is a good name -
there's lots of room for maneouvre)  ... i know from the site i
co-produce, motion, which attempts to cover good new music across the
board i.e. from avant-garde composition to 2-step garage, that the
broad range of tastes can cause friction occasionally, and that
certain musics tend to induce louder responses than others - perhaps
it's easier to vocalise thought about zorn's 'other' music (also
bearing in mind his introduction to the arcana book about the
difficulty of talking about complex music) ... consequently, please
forgive me if what follows isn't a sufficiently detailed or
intelligent analysis of the music ...

but for the record, i found the angel orensanz concert utterly
enchanting. i'd had a great new york day. the city itself is so
enchanting to this jaded londoner - even on a flying, and
consequently slightly jet-lagged visit - witnessing numerous examples
of the quiet drama the city seems to effortlessly generate.

i'd spent the afternoon drifting around downtown with a
friend/musician who introduced me to the delights of the chinatown
end of canal street (a semi-serious d=E9rive, with nick zammuto, who's
work i can wholeheartedly recommend to people), witnessed a minor
fire in a dorm at NYU walking along prince street, ambled through the
lower east side in the 100-degree heat, kids setting off fire
hydrants etc. (i'm not used to that heat, but actually enjoyed it,
perhaps because i had nothing particularly to accomplish), and
chanced upon the foundation (i knew it was a different number of
norfolk st. to tonic - that's all!) ... what a beautiful building. an
old synagogue as far as i could tell (reminding me of the beautiful
"hidden" synagogue in london's princelet street, though much larger),
converted in idiosyncratic fashion into an artist's foundation, and
here into a concert venue. the hall was pretty hot too
(air-conditioning not really being an issue in early-20thC synagogue
design) and filled up rapidly. i ended up sitting behind arto
lindsay, ikue mori and zeena parkins ... bizarre (for downtown
gossipmongers, arto and zorn hugged warmly at 'half-time', arto
congratulating zorn and the two generally joshing around ... zorn
thanked a less-than-enthusiastic young girl for being dragged down to
the show by her parents, saying "don't worry. it'll be more rocking
next time!", perhaps alluding to the upcoming gigs with
lombardo/frith/laswell?)

zorn introduced the show, thanking us all for "coming downtown to
hear his uptown music"! in fact, jz's role/presence throughout was
interesting, enthusiastically applauding "his" musicians and
generally beaming broadly. he was also responsible for shifting
around all the instruments between pieces - hilarious. he somehow
managed to convey that he was perfectly happy to do this, but also
made a bit of a show of it. "that's the other difference with
downtown gigs - the composer has to shift the instruments around!",
he noted at one point ...

the foundation felt like the perfect setting for the concert as far
as i was concerned (in a non-religious spiritual sense?!?!), though
it was hot, and somewhat noisy (the first musicians had to contend
with a rogue air-conditioning unit firing up and then being shut
down, creaky old chairs in the congregation, dogs barking, sirens
etc., but that all added to the experience for me - concr=E9te indeed)

i can't remember the exact running order, but it started with "music
for children" and ended with "kol nidre", with a friedlander solo
piece "untitled" and possibly several pieces from "string quartets"
(http://motion.state51.co.uk/reviews/563.html)  .... the musicians
were stephen drury, jennifer choi,and william winant ... followed by
zorn's string quartet - whom he referred to as "the de sade quartet"
with a knowing smile (joyce hammann and mark feldman (violin), lois
martin (viola) and erik friedlander (cello)).

the music was beautiful. far more lyrical than i'd heard before.
there seemed to be more simply beautiful music this time - perhaps it
was the performance, but there was far less emphasis on simple shock
through continual displacement, and a lack of fear of producing a
music which was about achieving a sense of the sublime - even a
prettiness on occasion, though never twee and always countered, and
consequently highlighted, by contrast. there was also the gorgeous
dissonance, rapid scene-shift, sharp contrast, and intense dynamics
we've come to look for in zorn's music.

in this first piece, i also remember jennifer choi's near sine-wave
high notes on her violin, and her twisting, diving, very physical
performance ... i loved, as i had previously at london's barbican,
the interplay between stephen drury and william winant - their timing
is quite extraordinary. drury is such a fine player, utterly attuned
to the other performers, carefully constructing the foundations for
the music ...

erik friedlander then performed an awe-inspiring, intense solo cello
piece, working from memory and performing flawlessly for 15 minutes+,
sweat dripping from his brow, hair shredded from his bow ... he got a
deserved standing ovation. he's an incredible player.

the "de sade" quartet performed as brilliantly as i'd seen them at
the barbican ... i particularly adore "kol nidre" (for all it's
arvo-part-isms) and it seemed apposite to play it in this setting ...
the other pieces were akin to the work on "string quartets" (they may
well have been the same pieces - i couldn't catch all jz's
introductions, and they *felt* a little different) ... complex, rich,
rollercoasters ... i particularly enjoyed the quartet's ability to
shift easily to high-register playing (almost echoing yoshihide's
recent work for tzadik), countered by their sheer power when all are
bowing furiously in unison, and one moment when the players whipped
the air with their bows, drawing warm smiles from the crowd, just as
william winant "admonishing" a pillow with his cane had earlier -
zorn gently took the piss out of winant, introducing him as "william
wildman winant ... rock star" ... it was great, as ever, to watch
winant, veering between precise 'traditional' percussion work and
ripping his plywood boards, and rolling dried peas(?) around metal
bowls ... he often looks like a overgrown school boy, with his tongue
stuck out in total concentration (interesting to note the key role he
played in syr4, following the link posted to the list yesterday) ...

for such serious, complex music, and on such a hot day, the whole
event was incredibly well-received and zorn's infectious good humour
(which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ...
congratulations to all involved, and particularly john zorn.

anyway, for all my inability to talk about the music in detail, i
hope this has given a decent *impression* of the gig ...

all the best,
dan.

[ also, a few days before, i'd enjoyed thurston moore's improv gig at
tonic, with nels cline and zeena parkins (i think, again moore's
mumbled unamplified introductions were pretty inaudible). equally
intense, in different ways - hugely enjoyable ... the dj olive trio
(olive, kim gordon & ikue mori) was less successful imho, but still
interesting ]

--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [21.6.2000]:
< indo | amon tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere |
graham haynes | zed bias >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: one extra ticket for masada extravaganza tonight
Date: 21 Jun 2000 18:06:19 -0400

please respond asap if interested. It is at the symphony space on
95th street at 8, ticket is 31$

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: ||closed||one extra ticket for masada extravaganza tonight
Date: 21 Jun 2000 18:52:28 -0400



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 18:56:29 -0400

At 10:17 AM 6/21/00 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>Nothing compared, for exemple, with GUIGNOL'S BAND, which is almost
>impossible to read in French

I made it through the whole last trilogy in French then found that one of
our local libraries actually had one of the famous pamphlets (Ecole des
Cadavres, I think).  I was very excited, until I got the book -- most of
the pages still uncut -- and tried to read it.  First, *very* long, over
400 pages (not what I expected from a "pamphlet").  But the language, more
vitriolic than anything else Celine wrote, and immensely unreadable.
Didn't make it through two pages.  I saw a couple of the pamphlets at the
bouquinists on a recent trip to Paris, for 900ff (around $120 US -- cheap),
but I'd need a glossary for these.  I'm still a big Celine fan, but have
resigned myself to sticking with his masterpieces, since the pamphlets
won't be republished, much less translated, any time soon.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

-- Satchel Paige

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Akira SAITO" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kobo Abe's Cinema
Date: 22 Jun 2000 08:08:41 +0900


Hi,

>It's _Woman in the Dunes_ in the English
>translation; I have no idea of the original Japanese title.

The original title is the same meaning in Japanese.
You know there is the movie _Woman in the Dunes_,
directed by Hiroshi Teshigahara, written be Kobo Abe,
music by Toru Takemitsu?

Akira Saito (from JAPAN)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:05:01 -0400

Akira SAITO wrote:

> You know there is the movie _Woman in the Dunes_,
> directed by Hiroshi Teshigahara, written be Kobo Abe,
> music by Toru Takemitsu?

Great movie, great music, imho.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 00:14:50 GMT




>From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]
>Celine should be
>THE writer for hardcore 'torture garden' fans (although not for the Masada
>addicts...;-).

Actually, I think Octave Mirbeau's "Torture Garden" is a more appropriate
choice.


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
Date: 22 Jun 2000 00:21:50 GMT




>From: [e-mail]
>
>oh, and i saw john zorn play last night. there. now i belong on the list
>again.
>
>kg (laughing at himself dutifully)
>

I have to admit that your two posts have had me in stitches.  Isn't it
interesting how in the states the requirement of a sense of humor, whether
it's mandated in personal ads or job applications, is so prevailing as to
become "serious."  I think this mainstream "requirement" is a sign of a loss
of spontaneity.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Names...I've changed my mind
Date: 21 Jun 2000 21:03:11 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFDBC4.1BA47960
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."

You must be looking for a different list than most people.  Most were =
probably looking for dedicated list.  Unfortunately for them =
(fortunately for many, my self included) it's not.  I don't think any =
one wants the list to be "zorn-centric."  They just don't want the Zorn =
List to sound like it is. =20

I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live because =
they are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material.  The =
problem with the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's =
misleading.  I'm beginning to think that a name change is not a good =
thing.  Bringing people in is better than risking people getting upset =
over the content.  I think Zorn is a popular introduction to =
avant-garde/NYC Downtown music.  People learn of others through Zorn and =
maybe find that they don't like Zorn as much as they thought.  =
Regardless of people's opinions of the man, he has as big a name as any =
in the scene.  Isn't it a good thing to have it attached to this lowly =
internet mailing list?

Zach

------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFDBC4.1BA47960
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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You must be looking for a different list than most people.  =
Most were=20
probably looking for dedicated list.  Unfortunately for them =
(fortunately=20
for many, my self included) it's not.  I don't think any one wants =
the list=20
to be "zorn-centric."  They just don't want the Zorn List to sound =
like it=20
is.  </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live =
because they=20
are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material.  The =
problem with=20
the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's =
misleading. =20
I'm beginning to think that a name change is not a good thing.  =
Bringing=20
people in is better than risking people getting upset over the =
content.  I=20
think Zorn is a popular introduction to avant-garde/NYC Downtown =
music. =20
People learn of others through Zorn and maybe find that they don't like =
Zorn as=20
much as they thought.  Regardless of people's opinions of the man, =
he has=20
as big a name as any in the scene.  Isn't it a good thing to have =
it=20
attached to this lowly internet mailing list?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Zach</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFDBC4.1BA47960--

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Maurice Rickard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
Date: 21 Jun 2000 21:20:07 -0400

At 8:08 AM +0900 6/22/00, Akira SAITO wrote:
>You know there is the movie _Woman in the Dunes_,
>directed by Hiroshi Teshigahara, written be Kobo Abe,
>music by Toru Takemitsu?

Oh, yeah!  I've seen it.  As Brian said, great film.  I recall the
soundtrack as very electronic.  Was it ever released separately?

--
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mahfouz
Date: 21 Jun 2000 19:33:31 -0500

Thanks for the info, Jamie. That's interesting because now that you mention
it, Sanctuary kind of reminds me of Mahfouz the writer.

Naguib Mahfouz is a Nobel Prize winning author from Egypt who is probably
most famous in these parts (US) for his Cairo Trilogy (Palace Walk, Palace
of Desire,
and Sugar Street).  At least those are the books that you usually find at your
local bookstore.   The last thing I read by him was Arabian Nights and Days
which is a more fleshed out retelling of the famous Thousand and One Nights.
I've always been somewhat disappointed in the original but Mahfouz' version is
utterly magical.  He is an excellent, sometimes mesmerizing writer although
I really
need to read more of his books.  I believe he is still alive somewhere
close to 90
although given the amount of time it takes for his books to be translated
from the
Arabic to English we could still be waiting for that news to hit here.    James



At 01:22 PM 06/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>to the person who asked about Mahfouz:
>
>I saw Dave and Mahfouz at the KF Old Office a year (or two?) ago. The band
>is Jamie Saft on organ, Ikue Mori doing her drum electronics, Kenny
>Wolleson and Dave playing trumpet and some electronic setup with CD and
>tape players, samplers and lots of pedals. It sounded like a small group
>"Sanctuary" with very loose, free compositions. Great group, but I don't
>think they plan to release any albums, at least according to Bruce at
>Downtown Music Gallery. The name comes from a writer from the middle east
>(Egpyt I think...), but I don't know anything about him. Anyone else know
>who Mahfouz is/was?
>
>Jamie
>
>
>-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mathieu Belanger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 21 Jun 2000 22:44:40 EDT

Hello,

>Nothing compared, for exemple, with GUIGNOL'S BAND, which is almost
>impossible to read in French (I gave up after 50 pages -- a
frustrating
>experience since it was the first time I was giving up on a novel that
>I thought was fantastic but could not read).

I experienced the same frustration. I had start reading _Guignol's
Band_ in February. Just like Patrice, I stopped after 100 pages. Celine
really put his style to the limit with this book. The first chapter
gives the impression you are actually reading an endless enumeration
except he is telling a story... Very hard to read... especially in the
metro!

>I am wondering how the translation could be.

Is it possible to translate this book? Of course, the words and the
sentences can be and probably have been, but I think it would be very
hard to capture the essence of the text. Also, Celine uses a particular
tone that would very difficult to express without the very specific
vocabulary used...

Bye,

Mathieu

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeni Dahmus <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: thurston@tonic and zornchambermusic@angelorensanz
Date: 21 Jun 2000 22:45:29 -0400

I meant to post a message about Zorn's chamber works concert earlier but was
too swamped to write anything articulate.  Dan, thanks for the lovely
review.  The concert was a spectacular, possibly historic, marathon of
Zorn's old and new chamber music. Several of my favorite pieces were
performed.  I remember the sets as:

8:00 - Music for Children, Untitled cello solo, The Dead Man, Amour Fou, Kol
Nidre
10:30 - Cat O'Nine Tails, Shibboleth (premiere), Le Momo, Dead Ringer,
Memento Mori

The opportunity to hear all the works live, in the same evening (!), was
extraordinary.  In my opinion, Zorn has produced / is producing a body of
classical compositions that will remain significant in the repertoire.  I
left the concert completely inspired to study this music further.

Just a few notes on individual pieces that Dan did not mention: Shibboleth's
quiet orchestration--string trio with practice mutes, percussion, and
clavichord--was refreshing.  What a delight to hear clavichord in a modern
work!  I enjoyed Dead Ringer, a finale-esque piano solo from 1982.  Stephen
Drury rocked the Orensanz with his virtuosic display.  Regarding the other
pieces on the program, I've gained a better appreciation through multiple
listenings, especially with the most recent series (Le Momo, Amour Fou,
Untitled).  It's impossible to catch the fine details and layers the first
time.  I've heard Le Momo live more often than the other compositions; each
time I'm blown away to a greater degree.  Also, the subtleties of
performance simply cannot be duplicated on a sound recording.

Zorn's chamber works, Secret Chiefs 3, and Dying Ground (go Kang!) were
concert highlights for me these past few months.

By the way, Zorn is Merkin Concert Hall's featured composer of the 2000-2002
season.  According to the season brochure, Kol Nidre, the untitled cello
solo, and music from Masada will be performed.  Zorn will also participate
in the "A Great Day in New York" series.

Jeni

p.s.  Someone else reviewed the concert on the Caca Volante list.  I can
forward the message to anyone interested.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Marsh" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:08:32 +0100


kurt wrote:

>
>ok, i gotta say it, peter, even if your larger point is a good one. monk not an
>instrumentalist?!? listen to his left hand plop as his right hand sprinkles.
>listen to his solo stuff. listen with your eyes closed. i dunno, dude, listen!

not guilty...that was andreas's point. i'm with you on that one. i think the
whole distinction of bad instrumentalist/good musician or vice versa is sort
of interesting because it raises questions of the relevancy of instrumental
technique as opposed to 'musicality', but of course it's all based on value
judgements. john mclaughlin is likely to score a 9 in most people's books in
technical terms alone. he can move his fingers very fast. but is he a good
musician ? (my answer would be sometimes, 30 years ago). you won't get a
concensus on that one. at the other end of the scale you might have anyone
from brian eno to steve jones to sun ra, where technique is less than
relevant.  somebody on another list i'm on once defined soul as 'to play
with more expression than normal using as little technique as possible'...
>
>and while the head is still swimming: dolphy has a lack of conception!?! good
>god, man. 'out to lunch' is one of the single best jazz recordings ever. easily.

i'm with you on that too.

cheers

peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Celine translation (was RE: books)
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:25:50 +0200

Mathieu Belanger <[e-mail]> wrote (quoting Patrice
L.Roussel about Gugnol's Band):

> >I am wondering how the translation could be.
>
> Is it possible to translate this book? Of course, the words and the
> sentences can be and probably have been, but I think it would be very
> hard to capture the essence of the text. Also, Celine uses a particular
> tone that would very difficult to express without the very specific
> vocabulary used...

Translating any of Celine's books is IMHO nearly impossible because of the
specific tone & vocabulary used... There is an excellent polish translation
of 'mort a credit' ,one that cathes much mof the tone, but it's seriously
cenosred - the book becomes mucgh less vulgar and violent.
'D'un chateau l'autre' was translated more preecsiely, but a way less fun -
but that one is more difficult...

What are english translation like?

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Celine translation (was RE: books)
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:24:29 GMT




>From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
>
>Translating any of Celine's books is IMHO nearly impossible because of the
>specific tone & vocabulary used...
>
>What are english translation like?
>

Most of the translations were very ably rendered by Ralph Manheim, whom I
believe has also done translations of German writers.  The exception was
Guignol, which was translated by Bernard Frechtman and Jack Nile.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Names...I've changed my mind
Date: 22 Jun 2000 09:45:30 -0400

", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."

You must be looking for a different list than most people.  Most were
probably looking for dedicated list.  Unfortunately for them (fortunately
for many, my self included) it's not.  I don't think any one wants the list
to be "zorn-centric."  They just don't want the Zorn List to sound like it
is.

I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live because they
are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material.  The problem with
the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's misleading.  I'm
beginning to think that a name change is not a good thing.  Bringing people
in is better than risking people getting upset over the content.  I think
Zorn is a popular introduction to avant-garde/NYC Downtown music.  People
learn of others through Zorn and maybe find that they don't like Zorn as
much as they thought.  Regardless of people's opinions of the man, he has as
big a name as any in the scene.  Isn't it a good thing to have it attached
to this lowly internet mailing list?

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeremy McClain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn Top Ten
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:11:02 EDT

A couple days ago someone mentioned the Zorn top ten list that he used to
post on the Tzadik site.  I've been on a quest for some time now to track
them down.  It seems there is no archive to retrieve them.  Would anyone
have or know where to find these lists?  I've always loved the fact that
Zorn uses his liner notes to recommend other artists.  His Top Ten lists
were great because they were up-to-date nods to his current influences.  I'm
kicking myself for not saving them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeremy
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:00:45 -0400

At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
downtown."

Briefly tho, zorn sounded in great shape, he must be playing his ass off.

Dave was just as unbelievable as you could imagine, does that guy
ever take the horn off his face? He went up on stage and didnt have
any charts or written music.

Joey laid back during bar kokhba but kicked it into high gear for the
quartet. His solos are starting to change a lot, not just fast
powerhouse activity, but really musical.

Greg was cranked the whole night and laying it down in all three
groups, his big red mit got bigger and bigger as the night wore on. I
know we have talked about his hand, just wondering if there are any
more insights into the cause. Some really amazing solos in the trio
and quartet.

Mark played better than I have ever seen him, really pushing himself
and the songs. There were a few new arrangements for the trio and the
sextet. I can never remember the names of the tunes, but I believe
they were off some of the newer masada releases.

Erik was totally on top of his game, his solos in the sextet and trio
were beautiful.

Cyro was inventive and used a lot of the same sounds as on the circle
maker, he just makes me laugh with his expressions. I love the two
black metal pots he hits, it has a hole in the top and makes this
great bassy sound. Zorn was telling him that he was overplaying a few
times, dont know if that is typical. Zorn was doing a great job
conducting, really subtle, I was sitting on the side so I could see
him giving out his sigals, he really shaped the way a lot of those
tunes played out.

Ribot played great solos, some of his written parts he was having a
hard time with, but he made up for it in pure playing.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 08:10:03 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:14:50 GMT  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]
> >Celine should be
> >THE writer for hardcore 'torture garden' fans (although not for the Masada
> >addicts...;-).
>
> Actually, I think Octave Mirbeau's "Torture Garden" is a more appropriate
> choice.

From a spirit point of view (if such thing is possible between two different
mediums), I would say that Torture Garden (the band) is closer to Celine since
both attempt to stretch their own medium -- they both end up to punch the
consummer in the face. Mirbeau does not do that but focuses on a dark corner
of human mind (his delivery is in pure 19th century tradition).

    Patrice (indulging in the frivolous attempt at establishing
        connections beteween the uncommensurable).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Akira SAITO" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
Date: 23 Jun 2000 00:15:53 +0900


>Oh, yeah!  I've seen it.  As Brian said, great film.  I recall the
>soundtrack as very electronic.  Was it ever released separately?

I have not seen the soundtrack of the film only. But, there have been
several soundtracks of Takemitsu's music for some films directed
by Teshigahara, Ohshima, Imamura, etc.
Now you can buy CD titled "The Film Music of Toru Takemitsu".
It includes Kobo Abe's movie, "Woman in the Dunes" and "The Face
of Another". The front photo of the CD is from the latter, the face with
whole bandage! (He is Nakadai, regular actor for Kurosawa's film.)

Akira Saito

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn's humour
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:18:26 -0500


dan observed:
"zorn's infectious good humour
(which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ... "

i was surprisd the first time i saw jz play, about 9 yrs ago, how much he seemd
to love what he was doing and how happy he was just to be there. i remember him
grinning ear-to-ear, sitting on the drum riser, thurston moore on his left,
haino keiji on his right, basking in it.

and that's more or less the attitude he has whenever i've seen him. he might run
to the edge of the stage to violently flip off a press photographer or
something, but he's generally having a good time once that's taken care of.

reason i say it is i think the image he's projectd (moreso in the past) makes
him seem like an angrier, more volatile person than he is. he's also generally
friendly and approachable.

i don't mean to come off all starry-eyed. there's certainly things he does that
i find uninteresting (like any artist, at least any artist who tries so many
different things). but i do think it's, well hasty anyway, for someone who (i'm
guessing) doesn't know the man to talk trash about him. someone else said here
they didn't want to contribute to zorn's huge ego by calling this list after
him. i wonder where he got that impression. because jz recognizes his place in
the market and puts a lot of work into attaching his name to a nonprofit label
that calls a fair bit of attention to a lot of musicians who otherwise wouldn't
get it? i guarantee there's nobody on this list who knew all the acts tzadik has
releasd before they came out. and from my few contacts with the man, he's never
struck me as egotistical. there's been unkind personal assumptions made about
other people, loren mazzacane connors for one, here. let's keep the conversation
to music (and books and film and electronics and travel spots and...) and leave
out the name-calling, of each other or the folks we write about.

whew! i didn't really even know i was going there.

ah well,

kg

np: john fahey - the transfiguration of blind joe death



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 15:29:44 GMT




>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
> >
> > Actually, I think Octave Mirbeau's "Torture Garden" is a more
>appropriate
> > choice.
>
>From a spirit point of view (if such thing is possible between two
>different
>mediums), I would say that Torture Garden (the band) is closer to Celine
>since
>both attempt to stretch their own medium -- they both end up to punch the
>consummer in the face. Mirbeau does not do that but focuses on a dark
>corner
>of human mind (his delivery is in pure 19th century tradition).
>
>    Patrice (indulging in the frivolous attempt at establishing
>        connections beteween the uncommensurable).


You're right Patrice.  Torture indeed has its "periodization."  The question
we must ask Celine is what happens during the ellipses.  Mirbeau belongs to
that 19th century form of tortuous aestheticism that would have to include
Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and his infamous love for the soles of women's
boots.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:32:00 EDT


In a message dated 6/22/00 11:04:35 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Ribot played great solos, some of his written parts he was having a
hard time with, but he made up for it in pure playing. >>

for me, Ribot's playing during the chamber sextet was easily my favorite part
of the evening. I was sitting pretty far back, but it seemed that after the
first tune or two, when Ribot was having some trouble with the sheet music,
Zorn decided to change his plan of attack, loosen up the reins, and
essentially let Ribot be the star soloist. it sounded much closer to
Filmworks 9 then it did to The Circle Maker or Bar Kokhba.

I also thought it was kind of funny that when Zorn announced "Bar Kokhba will
be next" after the String Trio, he pronounced it "Bar Kakhba" as if the o in
Kokhba rhymed with the Ra in Sun Ra. now, my Hebrew School days are long
behind me, but I'm fairly sure that it's pronounced as an O, like in rotund.
if I'm wrong, I'm sure you guys will tell me, but I don't think I am.

I was pretty impressed that the place was sold out (six or seven hundred
people, I'd guess) at $31/ticket. I couldn't figure out whether the audience
was predominantly downtown Zorn fans or JVC tourists, but whichever, they
loved what they were seeing, clapping long and loud after each piece of the
three sets. some people started trickling out during the Masada set, but that
might have been because it was starting to get a bit later, rather than a
dislike for the band.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
Date: 22 Jun 2000 08:35:46 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:08:32 +0100  "Peter Marsh" wrote:
>
> >
> >ok, i gotta say it, peter, even if your larger point is a good one. monk not an
> >instrumentalist?!? listen to his left hand plop as his right hand sprinkles.
> >listen to his solo stuff. listen with your eyes closed. i dunno, dude, listen!
>
> not guilty...that was andreas's point. i'm with you on that one. i think the
> whole distinction of bad instrumentalist/good musician or vice versa is sort
> of interesting because it raises questions of the relevancy of instrumental
> technique as opposed to 'musicality', but of course it's all based on value
> judgements. john mclaughlin is likely to score a 9 in most people's books in
> technical terms alone. he can move his fingers very fast. but is he a good
> musician ? (my answer would be sometimes, 30 years ago). you won't get a
> concensus on that one. at the other end of the scale you might have anyone
> from brian eno to steve jones to sun ra, where technique is less than
> relevant.  somebody on another list i'm on once defined soul as 'to play
> with more expression than normal using as little technique as possible'...

I have been thinking about a related question, but with litterature:

    Why some writers have succeeded so well in writing in a language
    that was not theirs? [besides, of course, their talent]

I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet (I know, he is not a foreigner, but
his limited education made him almost in the same position as a foreigner
writing in another language). Why have these artists reached such phenomenal
status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the language than
only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?

I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the sense
that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?

    Patrice (biting an old bone).


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Chicago question.
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:46:37 EDT

I am possibly moving to Chicago next year, and I would like to move to an
area with an interesting music scene.  Does anyone have any comments or
advice on music in Chicago?

Thanks...

Ben.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 08:50:00 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:29:44 GMT  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> You're right Patrice.  Torture indeed has its "periodization."  The question
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, that is one of the elements that helps comparing both.

> we must ask Celine is what happens during the ellipses.  Mirbeau belongs to
                        ^^^^^^^^
I think that going so far, Celine reached the limits of the language and
that the ellipses represent the culmination of his frustration at not being
able to spit in the face of the world with words...

When you read Celine, you quickly realize how hyper-lucid he was (it is
almost scarry since he can see so much behind the smoke screens that
conventions and society put in everything we do). When you are so lucid, it
is hard to look at the world without such dose of irony and bitterness. He
did a fantastic job at conveying that with words. But words are just words,
and there is a limit to what they can do. I am happy that Celine never got
political control of any kind, and only used art to express his bitterness...

> that 19th century form of tortuous aestheticism that would have to include
> Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and his infamous love for the soles of women's
> boots.

And don't forget Sade!

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Your Imaginary Friend)
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:52:24 -0500

Jason wrote:

>Greg was cranked the whole night and laying it down in all three
>groups, his big red mit got bigger and bigger as the night wore on. I
>know we have talked about his hand, just wondering if there are any
>more insights into the cause. Some really amazing solos in the trio
>and quartet.

I've missed previous discussions on this bit of esoterica, but when Masada
played in Oklahoma five 'r six years ago, I asked Greg about his hand -
it's a birthmark...

Jon M.

_________________________
Radio Free Norman
96.7 FM



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 11:22:47 -0400

On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
> At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
> coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
> downtown."

Premature end?

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter Marsh" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:43:29 +0100

Patrice wrote:

>I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet (I know, he is not a foreigner, but
>his limited education made him almost in the same position as a foreigner
>writing in another language). Why have these artists reached such phenomenal
>status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the language than
>only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?

>I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the sense
>that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
>recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
>control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
>in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
>education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?

That's an interesting idea...it sort of relates to the idea of limiting your
options, which is what artists have to spend a lot of time doing. Prodigious
technique or fluency kind of multiplies creative options in the same way
that new technology tends to, which usually has the result of
overcomplicating the issue and leads (in my experience anyway) to prolonged
head scratching, much timewasting and eventually, nothing much. Limited
technique or resources focusses creative activity for those of us who aren't
preternaturally gifted. Guitarists of the world, chuck away all your effects
pedals and tie one hand behind your back !

cheers

peter

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT)

Following past messages I pulled out my 1966 Signet edition of Death On
The Installement Plan and re-read the first 100 or so pages last night.
What struck me the most about read LFC at this late date is how much the
prose resembled that of Henry Miller circa the Tropics.

Miller was living in Paris at about that time and I wonder if one
influenced the other. Or was it like Sonny Stitt and Bird? Stitt insisted
that he developed his style before he heard Parker.

Ken Waxman

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn's humour
Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:42:40 +0100

>dan observed:
>"zorn's infectious good humour
>(which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
>whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ... "
>
>i was surprisd the first time i saw jz play, about 9 yrs ago, how
>much he seemd
>to love what he was doing and how happy he was just to be there. i
>remember him
>grinning ear-to-ear, sitting on the drum riser, thurston moore on his left,
>haino keiji on his right, basking in it.
>
>and that's more or less the attitude he has whenever i've seen him.
>he might run
>to the edge of the stage to violently flip off a press photographer or
>something, but he's generally having a good time once that's taken care of.



hiya

thanks for that kurt ... i totally see what you're saying. the only
reason i threw that in was the comment someone made a few days ago
(which was actually on the jazz-l list come to think) about zorn's
performance as part of SLAN (with elliot sharp and ted epstein):

quote:
"Zorn either screamed into a mic or squeaked and squawked on his alto
saxophone. At one point, an audience member cynically shouted out
"Play something artsy!" Zorn just glared out at him and hissed
"Suffer!" It was a less than compelling set - and I'm a *fan* of
those guys."

just hearsay obviously. and the audience member sounds like they deserved it.

combined with the (righteous) anger that comes through in, say, the
jazz times article, i guess that he may project a certain image. note
i said righteous not self-righteous.

like i say, i was delighted to zorn so good-humoured, humble, and
clearly enjoying the whole experience. hey, now i sound star-struck
...

cheers,
dan.
--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [22.6.2000]:
< indo | amon tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere |
graham haynes | zed bias >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:05:55 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT)  Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> Following past messages I pulled out my 1966 Signet edition of Death On
> The Installement Plan and re-read the first 100 or so pages last night.
> What struck me the most about read LFC at this late date is how much the
> prose resembled that of Henry Miller circa the Tropics.

First VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT was written in 1932 and TROPIQUE DU CANCER in
1934, which puts Celine first (by a very small margin, at least from a
publishing date point of view).

Both books are more of less of biographical nature and exhibit similar
bitterness and highly-critical look at society. There are written by
adults who had quite a bit of experience (Celine with I WW and Miller
with the Depression).

Although less obvious in TROPIQUE DU CANCER, TROPIQUE DU CAPRICORNE has a
poetic (should I say exalted?) dimension that is totally missing in Celine
(I do not consider the style of GUIGNOL'S BAND as being of a poetic nature,
but again, I use criterias from the old time; I know that according to modern
standards, it is impossible these days to write any combination of words that
do no qualify as being poetic...). I am not familiar with Miller's trilogy
(NEXUS, SEXUS, etc), but I seem to remember that the poetic/exalted aspect
of his writing kept on growing.

Although VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT and TROPIQUE DU CANCER are both phenomenal
first attempts of young writers (not based on age criteria, but fame), Celine
kept experimenting more and more, and, IMHO, Miller got more and more self-
centered and annoyingly self-indulgent. Needless to say, Celine never got,
IMHO again, self-indulgent (he has no pity for anybody, and he puts himself
in the front row). But Celine wrote those awful pamphlets... Which means that
as a human being, it is hard to defend Celine.

Miller's first books finish on an optimistic tone (with moral like: "Life
is crappy, but we are happy to be there anyway"). Also, with Miller sex is
what save the man from his desperate lot. This escape is absent in Celine:
the man is naked and there is no hope.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: upcoming releases on Unheard Music Series
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:16:20 -0700


    I talked yesterday with John Corbett and he mentioned some interesting
upcoming releases on his label (Unheard Music Series):

*** - NERVE BEATS: Han Bennink (1973, unreleased)
*** - HEAVY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN: Leo Cuypers (reissue, on Bvhaast initially)
*** - HUNTING THE SNAKE: Alex Schlippenbach 4tet (1976, unreleased)
    4tet = A.S., Evan Parker, Peter Kowald, Paul Lovens
*** - WILLIE THE PIG: Irene Schweizer (reissue, I guess)

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:25:24 -0700

>>>the man is naked and there is no hope.<<<

I have no mouth and I must scream.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:36:12 -0400

off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
up on the fourth or fifth tune.

>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
>  > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
>  > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
>  > downtown."
>
>Premature end?
>
>--
>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
>
>-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 10:40:42 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:25:24 -0700  "s~Z" wrote:
>
> >>>the man is naked and there is no hope.<<<
>
> I have no mouth and I must scream.

Hoops! I meant:

    "Man [in general] is naked and there is no hope."

as a way of ultra-simplifying Celine's philosophy. I did not mean
"the man" as Celine.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:54:21 -0400

Hello Jason,

I wonder how many people from this list were there? :-)

What was the tune Masada String Trio played picking strings only? I
think it was not recorded for Circle Maker. Does anybody know if they
are going to make another recording?

Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:

JT> off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
JT> didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
JT> up on the fourth or fifth tune.

>>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
>>  > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
>>  > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
>>  > downtown."
>>
>>Premature end?
>>
>>--
>>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>>
>>
>>-


JT> -


--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]
URL: http://www.shkin.com/



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 14:32:04 -0400

I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.

There was this kid named Lauren [I Think] he is an alto player, I saw
him play with a buddy of mine anders griffen about 4 years ago in
white plains, he was hot then, I wonder where he is at now. Does
anyone know who I am talking about.

Of course bruce lee galager was front row dead center sporting is
tzadik tshirt.

I was really surprised at the variety of folks that were out at this gig.

Has there ever been a list get together, sounds kind of lame but it
might be interesting to put faces to names when out at shows.

>Hello Jason,
>
>I wonder how many people from this list were there? :-)
>
>What was the tune Masada String Trio played picking strings only? I
>think it was not recorded for Circle Maker. Does anybody know if they
>are going to make another recording?
>
>Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:
>
>JT> off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
>JT> didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
>JT> up on the fourth or fifth tune.
>
>  >>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
>  >>  > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
>  >>  > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
>  >>  > downtown."
>  >>
>  >>Premature end?
>  >>
>  >>--
>  >>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>  >>| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>  >>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>  >>| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>-
>
>
>JT> -
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Peter Gannushkin
>e-mail: [e-mail]
>URL: http://www.shkin.com/
>
>
>
>-


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: dolphymonk!!
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:47:06 -0600


>>i think the whole distinction of bad instrumentalist/good musician or
>>vice versa is sort of interesting because it raises questions of the
>>relevancy of instrumental technique as opposed to 'musicality', but of
>>course it's all based on
>>value judgements.

>I have been thinking about a related question, but with litterature:

    >Why some writers have succeeded so well in writing in a language
    >that was not theirs? [besides, of course, their talent]

>I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet...
>...Why have these artists reached such
>phenomenal
>status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the
>language than
>only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?

I think that perhaps the clumsy control that they have lends itself to
certain idiosyncratic uses of the language that native speakers would not
neccessarily have employed.  These unusual methods eventually become a
recognizable style, distict from traditional prose or spoken english.

>I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the
>sense that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play
>(although recognizing his incredible imagination and talent).

I would agree entirely.  In either music or literature it obviously takes
talent and imagination to rework the material of the field but it may be
that the 'untrained' or the 'outsider' has a leg up by virtue of his/her
lack of familiarity with the building blocks of the repertoire.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[3]: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 15:06:32 -0400

Hello Jason,

Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:

JT> I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
JT> the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.

We always meet them on concerts. Definitely on all Zorn's and
Friedlander's shows. Seems they are very special people because they
were sitting at VIP seats on Zorn's Chamber Music and had Bell
Atlantic Jazz Festival VIP cards. Do you know who are they?

JT> There was this kid named Lauren [I Think] he is an alto player, I saw
JT> him play with a buddy of mine anders griffen about 4 years ago in
JT> white plains, he was hot then, I wonder where he is at now. Does
JT> anyone know who I am talking about.

Yes, I think. He was helping with equipment on Beat The Donkey at
Knit.

JT> Of course bruce lee galager was front row dead center sporting is
JT> tzadik tshirt.

Yes, we were almost behind him on the next row.

--
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]
URL: http://www.shkin.com/



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: chicago question/cohen's hand
Date: 22 Jun 2000 15:07:36 -0500


chicago's a fun town. i lived there for a few years, back when. it supposedly
has the greatest annual average temperature disparity of any place on the globe,
so get ready.

the aacm is alive and strong, and great stuff happens there. watch for edward
wilkerson, mwata bowden, kahil el'zabar, ernest dawkins. clubs are the hothouse,
the empty bottle and fred anderson's velvet lounge. also the green mill, in
uptown, is a beautiful old club once owned by capone. usually pretty pedestrian
stuff there, but sometimes there's good stuff and it's worth a visit.

a new scene has grown up since i left. (not sure what i mean by 'new', younger
and white, i suppose). ken vandermark, jeb bishop, kent kessler. myopic books, i
believe, is a venue for that scene.

of course jim o'rourke lives there, but i don't think he's ever home. and this
'tortoise' band i'm always meaning to check out.

listings and a newsgroup are at:

http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~tisue/chicagonow

also check for shows at:

www.hothouse.net

>>>

the interesting, and unanswered, question about cohen's hand is not about color
but size. it's definitely bigger than it's match.

kg

np: xtc - wasp star (apple venus vol. 2)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 13:30:18 -0400

On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 10:40:42AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Hoops! I meant:
>
>     "Man [in general] is naked and there is no hope."
>
> as a way of ultra-simplifying Celine's philosophy. I did not mean
> "the man" as Celine.

How could Celine have that depressing a worldview, even after singing
"My Heart Will Go On"?

*ducking*

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:19:44 -0700


On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:30:18 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> How could Celine have that depressing a worldview, even after singing
> "My Heart Will Go On"?

Hum... I miss the joke. Maybe you have to watch TV to get it :-).

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 12:40:01 -0700

Hum... I miss the joke. Maybe you have to watch TV to get it :-).

Patrice.

http://www.celineonline.com/albums/cd1408.html




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: books
Date: 22 Jun 2000 14:40:33 -0400

That song, by Celine Dion from the soundtrack to Titanic, was a gigantic
hit last year. If you were in any public places with forced music (such
as supermarkets) odds are that you've heard it.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 12:19:44PM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:30:18 -0400  Joseph Zitt wrote:
> >
> > How could Celine have that depressing a worldview, even after singing
> > "My Heart Will Go On"?
>
> Hum... I miss the joke. Maybe you have to watch TV to get it :-).
>
>     Patrice.

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[3]: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 17:16:22 -0400

>Hello Jason,
>
>Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:
>
>JT> I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
>JT> the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.
>
>We always meet them on concerts. Definitely on all Zorn's and
>Friedlander's shows. Seems they are very special people because they
>were sitting at VIP seats on Zorn's Chamber Music and had Bell
>Atlantic Jazz Festival VIP cards. Do you know who are they?

    Stephanie & Irving Stone.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn's humour
Date: 22 Jun 2000 18:04:51 +0000

I always found that Zorn took his own persona pretty lightly.
A few years ago in Victoriaville I was in the hotel restaurant and the only other
people were JZ, Dave Douglas, Joey, Marc Ribot. The shy young French woman who was
helping with publicity approached Zorn to tell him that someone wanted to interview
him. Zorn started into a high-pitched tirade about not having done an interview "in
10 years" but then started to crack himself up. He finally told her politely that
he wasn't interested.

James Hale

[e-mail] wrote:

> dan observed:
> "zorn's infectious good humour
> (which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
> whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ... "
>
> i was surprisd the first time i saw jz play, about 9 yrs ago, how much he seemd
> to love what he was doing and how happy he was just to be there. i remember him
> grinning ear-to-ear, sitting on the drum riser, thurston moore on his left,
> haino keiji on his right, basking in it.
>
> and that's more or less the attitude he has whenever i've seen him. he might run
> to the edge of the stage to violently flip off a press photographer or
> something, but he's generally having a good time once that's taken care of.
>
> reason i say it is i think the image he's projectd (moreso in the past) makes
> him seem like an angrier, more volatile person than he is. he's also generally
> friendly and approachable.
>
> i don't mean to come off all starry-eyed. there's certainly things he does that
> i find uninteresting (like any artist, at least any artist who tries so many
> different things). but i do think it's, well hasty anyway, for someone who (i'm
> guessing) doesn't know the man to talk trash about him. someone else said here
> they didn't want to contribute to zorn's huge ego by calling this list after
> him. i wonder where he got that impression. because jz recognizes his place in
> the market and puts a lot of work into attaching his name to a nonprofit label
> that calls a fair bit of attention to a lot of musicians who otherwise wouldn't
> get it? i guarantee there's nobody on this list who knew all the acts tzadik has
> releasd before they came out. and from my few contacts with the man, he's never
> struck me as egotistical. there's been unkind personal assumptions made about
> other people, loren mazzacane connors for one, here. let's keep the conversation
> to music (and books and film and electronics and travel spots and...) and leave
> out the name-calling, of each other or the folks we write about.
>
> whew! i didn't really even know i was going there.
>
> ah well,
>
> kg
>
> np: john fahey - the transfiguration of blind joe death
>
> -




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Date: 22 Jun 2000 18:10:27 +0000

The Stones are legendary in NYC jazz circles.
I sat with them last year at Masada at the Angel Orensatz Foundation, and
Irving regaled me with stories of when he was Ornette Coleman's (unpaid)
bookkeeper.
These people are living jazz historians.

James Hale

Rich Williams wrote:

> >Hello Jason,
> >
> >Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:
> >
> >JT> I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
> >JT> the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.
> >
> >We always meet them on concerts. Definitely on all Zorn's and
> >Friedlander's shows. Seems they are very special people because they
> >were sitting at VIP seats on Zorn's Chamber Music and had Bell
> >Atlantic Jazz Festival VIP cards. Do you know who are they?
>
>         Stephanie & Irving Stone.
>
> -



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: alan hovhaness dies
Date: 22 Jun 2000 18:02:55 CDT

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/late/22cnd-obit-hovhaness.html

Also, a good but very short review of Hovhaness' place in contemporary music
on NPR's All Things Considered for 6/22/00.  Might not be archived yet, but
it will be:

www.npr.org

-----s
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: transmissions festival update
Date: 22 Jun 2000 20:06:58 -0400 (EDT)


july 14-15 cat's cradle, carrboro, nc

Pita, Fennesz, Rafael Toral, Kim Cascone, Hazard, David Grubbs, John
Fahey, Marcus Schmickler, Alan Licht, Dean Roberts, Pelt, Lucky Kitchen,
rhBand, Vote Robot, Idyll Swords, Zuerichten, Keenan Lawler, Miss
Murgatroid + films & audio installations

transmissions site  www.transmit.org


here's a comprehensive transmissions update.
please let us know if you have any other questions -

thanks for being on the list.

best,

keenan
___________________________

trans oo3 announcements:

>> site additions
>> trans.missive
>> trans oo2 cd
>> trans oo3 installations
>> trans oo3 filmmakers
>> tickets

>> >>additions to site ( transmit.org) : :

there are currently new photos and
sound clips of the forthcoming trans oo2 cd.
more audio + photos will be added soon, along with video footage.


>> >>we are also anticipating the arrival of the transmissions
magazine, trans.missive, which features:

bernhard guenter's program notes from trans oo2
interview with pelt, by chris toenes
for tune un der sun (dialogues on haiku, with john hudak and julie
shapiro)
a series of trans oo2 photgraphs taken by dwayne dixon
interview with rafael toral, by chuck johnson
archival information from last year's festival
details for the upcoming festival
and more.

>> >> trans.missive will also include a cd of
live recordings from last year's festival
with pieces  by:

phil kline
chuck johnson
john hudak
micro-east collective
loren mazzacane connors
fm:xpanse
windy and carl


>> >>trans oo3 installations are being prepared by:

s.fenton
chris rice//ian nagoski (10-11pm  on 7.15.00)
marc faris
(taking place at go! studios on 7.15.00 from 7-11pm, except where noted)

alyssa wood
keith obadike
(these installations will be running on friday and
saturday at  cd alley)


>> >>the following filmmakers will have work screened at the
cat's cradle on 7.14.00:

marc masters
chris jolley
julie shapiro
jim haverkamp
robbie land
jesse seay


>> >>tickets

trans oo3 tickets are dwindling. If you are planning to attend the
festival, we highly advise that you purchase your tickets as soon as
possible.  tickets are available through the transmit.org site, at CD
Alley and Schoolkids Records in Chapel Hill, at Aquarius in San Francisco,
at Ear X Tacy, Ground Zero and Underground Sound in Louisville, and via
mailorder from us.

by mail : : send a check or money order for $30 per
weekend pass payable to Keenan McDonald:

trans oo3
c/o keenan mcdonald
po box 1816
west jefferson, nc 28694

_______________________________________
[e-mail]                          > transmit.org<




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Celine
Date: 23 Jun 2000 00:26:11 GMT

Ken wrote:
<Miller was living in Paris at about that time and I wonder if one
influenced the other. Or was it like Sonny Stitt and Bird? Stitt insisted
that he developed his style before he heard Parker.>

Yes, Miller has written in his essays about the influence of Celine on his
work.

Patrice wrote:

>Although VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT and TROPIQUE DU CANCER are both
>phenomenal
>first attempts of young writers (not based on age criteria, but fame),
>Celine
>kept experimenting more and more, and, IMHO, Miller got more and more self-
>centered and annoyingly self-indulgent.

Actually, Tropic of Cancer wasn't Miller's first work.  It was his first
published work, but Crazy Cock was his first work actually.  Yes, Miller
becomes a rather tired and repetitive act after awhile.



>But Celine wrote those awful pamphlets... Which means that
>as a human being, it is hard to defend Celine.
>

Julia Kristeva did a pretty good job of trying, despite the awful pamphlets.
  You might want to check out the Powers of Horror, a rejuvenating reading
of Celine's work, particularly chapter 6.  She reads Celine against the
grain, as it were, and so it's a useful book just to see how such a reading
proceeds.  Perhaps many already know that Celine was a trained medical
doctor who wrote his dissertation on Ignaz Semmelweis, who, during the
Napoleanic era and before the discovery of microbes, had located the causes
of puerperal fever, an infection that develops during childbirth.
Semmelweis' great contribution to medicine was in recommending to doctors
that they wash their hands after handling corpses and before attending to
pregnant women.  This leads Kristeva to remark at one point:  "A foreigner
[Semmelweis], a solitary, on the fringe of the profession, insane in the
end, persecuted by everyone, the inventor of obstetric hygiene had what it
takes to fascinate not only those suffering from obsessions but, more
deeply, those who fear decay and death at the touch of the feminine [Celine
on both counts]."

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: music in Russia
Date: 23 Jun 2000 00:50:41 GMT

Going to be in Moscow and St. Petersburg for most of July.  Any suggestions
for venues and music would be most appreciated.  Thanks.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Celine
Date: 22 Jun 2000 22:15:58 -0400

At 10:05 AM 6/22/00 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>First VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT was written in 1932 and TROPIQUE DU CANCER in
>1934, which puts Celine first (by a very small margin, at least from a
>publishing date point of view).
>
>Celine wrote those awful pamphlets... Which means that
>as a human being, it is hard to defend Celine.

I've mentioned Frederic Vitoux's biography before, and have to bring it up
again.  First and easiest, although he says that no one knows when Voyage
was completed, it was started in 1929 and Celine started sending it around
in 1931.  However, on the pamphlets, Vitoux is eloquent and places the
pamphlets in quite a bit of context that puts some of the complexities back
into the picture.  'Each individual lives with his or her own
contradictions, his or her own zones of shadow and light....  There exists
within each of us a solid core of unyielding opacity.  We can only orbit
around it and try to shed light on merely fragmentary aspects of that
mysterious (and dubious) unity known as man.'  He goes on to discuss
several possible factors behind Bagatelles and the other pamphlets.

I would encourage anyone interested in the pamphlets and Celine's behavior
during the war (as well as all other aspects of Celine's fascinating life)
to read Vitoux's biography, admirably translated by Jesse Browner.

--
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.

-- Satchel Paige

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zornchambermusic@angelorensanz
Date: 22 Jun 2000 23:25:08 -0400

many thanks to Dan and Jeni for their appreciative and thoughtful comments
on this concert.  just to clear up a small detail, for the historical record -
"Shibboleth" was originally written for and ensemble including clavichord.
we were unable to get a clavichord for this concert, so made do with a small
(1 manual) harpshichord with the lid closed.  unfortunate, as the
harpsichord sound, even with the lute stop, is completely different from the
clavichord (and the performer, pianist Yukiko Takagi (my wife) had spent the
last month learning the special touch required for a clavichord); however,
the clavichord would probably have been inaudible in that space anyway ...

--steve

http://www.stephendrury.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #975
Date: 22 Jun 2000 23:53:02 -0400

A silly newbie question to ask but...what is the story behind the Sun Ra
Arkestra.  I saw a poster for a performance at a college in PA last summer.
I only remember the poster because of the novelty of the spelling of
orchestra.  I hear references made to them quite frequently on the list.
Some people I know have made references to them.  I'm merely curious.
Thanks to any one who can help.

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: if you don't want it...
Date: 22 Jun 2000 20:49:07 -0700

after the suggestion that this listserv change it's name, i did some
thinking and realized that my name doesn't suit me as well as i might
like.

a more fitting name for me would be "zornlist." so if you guys are done
with it, pass it over here.

Martin

np. Egberto Gismonti -- Sanfona (does anybody know why all but one of
Gismonti's ECM albums have been suddenly deleted?)

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: xtc
Date: 23 Jun 2000 00:49:48 EDT

In a message dated 6/22/00 7:16:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< np: xtc - wasp star (apple venus vol. 2)
  >>

how is this record?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Sonic Youth/Stereolab live
Date: 23 Jun 2000 00:58:04 EDT

I saw Sonic Youth w/ Stereolab tonight. Impressive. Sonic's stage presence is
really exciting. Raw, beautiful, noisy. They did a lot of older songs, but
did alternate versions, etc. The new songs were wild...jim o'rourke did some
tweedling too. it kept things interesting.  there was also a projection of
NYC in various areas running throughout the show. the contrast of the
children laughing and running around on the subway with the song "sunday" was
dizzying.
stereolab was good too. really straight..

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Francesco Martinelli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #975
Date: 23 Jun 2000 07:11:36 +0200

check this to start with:
Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra, & Free Jazz):
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: books
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:24:07 +0200


> I think that going so far, Celine reached the limits of the language and
> that the ellipses represent the culmination of his frustration at not
being
> able to spit in the face of the world with words...

Well, he alsmost realizes that - if we take care of the way his prose is
tangible, nearly physical... Her uses word as sounds - they are not only
abstract representations.

> When you read Celine, you quickly realize how hyper-lucid he was (it is
> almost scarry since he can see so much behind the smoke screens that
> conventions and society put in everything we do). When you are so lucid,
it
> is hard to look at the world without such dose of irony and bitterness. He
> did a fantastic job at conveying that with words. But words are just
words,
> and there is a limit to what they can do. I am happy that Celine never got
> political control of any kind, and only used art to express his
bitterness...

Speaking of his political involvement with the nazis (not a very evident
one, BTW), we should IMO see it as a part of general hostility toward the
world. It's true he did not like Jews - but he did not seem to like anybody
very much... (except for wife &cat)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: dolphymonk!!
Date: 23 Jun 2000 14:15:50 +0200


> I have been thinking about a related question, but with litterature:
>
> Why some writers have succeeded so well in writing in a language
> that was not theirs? [besides, of course, their talent]
>
> I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet (I know, he is not a foreigner,
but
> his limited education made him almost in the same position as a foreigner
> writing in another language). Why have these artists reached such
phenomenal
> status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the language
than
> only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?

That question is really intersting, and is very special in the case of
litterature because of the very special way one learns the first language.
So i do believe that tthere is a huge difference here between Conrad (who
was polish and only learned later to speak  - and write - english) and
Genet, who put his own native language into work in such an incredible way.
BTW your remark about Genet made me realize that we can look at his style as
of a litterary french style seen from the bottom of the society and its
language. One shall remember that the 'official litterary style' is
something quite institutionalized in french - they have a different tense
(passe simple) that nobody uses in spoken language and that replaces the
passe compose of normal conversation (i hope i did not miss something ;-).
So there are easy ways to 'mark' something as 'litterary' (which Genet did)
or 'popular talk' (which Celine did).

> I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the
sense
> that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
> recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
> control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
> in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
> education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?

Well, the way I see it, limitations (and the fight against it) are necessary
for a great work. Monk is one example, Zappa is another. He fought for
expressing himself and to bypass severe limitations he had (lack of
composing teaching! and the pieces that guy wrote were performed by such
people as Boulez, Nagano, and now Eotvos. Just stunning.) What i like very
much about Zappa is that we see this struggle: we see what he sought, we see
were he failed, and we see what he achieves. We see the work on the music,
not just a finishede product. And the way i see it, Barry, that's much more
interesting.
    There's quite a similiar situation with King Crimson now. Bill Bruford
and Tony Levin are out, and the band goes on with much less experienced and
much less versalite-jazz-virtuoso Trey Gunn and Pat Matselotto (although i
must say that TG has made a terrific progress and it is quite hard to not
call him a 'voruoso'. THE electric bassist, with Steve Swallow of course)
And the result is still the same: interesting things emegre out of a
struggle for creating something new, but not evident. BTW if you have a
chance to catch them live, JUST DO IT.  They' re really impressive, and the
improv are mindblowing. I do think that this is the reason why Zorn often
plays with less experienced players. They have to fight for every good sound
they achieve, and the music we listen to is the story of that fight. It does
not mean that with unexperienced (or 'uneducated') players you'll always get
this 'struggle effect': 'free improv -electronic-whatever' also becomes
quickly a 'style' where there is nothing creative and just the repetioin of
those 'incredible sounds',  'wicked rhythmpatterns' etc.
    Just compare the achievements of the new electronic scene with what
Brian Eno did. (i do not mean to say that the thing is worthless, just to
put emphasis on the fact that BE changes and fights for the sound)
It's long enough,
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Graves <[e-mail]>
Subject: dolphymonk!
Date: 23 Jun 2000 09:12:55 -0400 (EDT)

I think an artistically limited range of
options is certainly more conducive to greater creativity. To expand
the idea from technique to creation of music, you only have to look at the
origins of jazz and blues to see how people can create unique and
beautiful art under limited conditions. I'm always amazed when I think
about washtub basses or steel drums: instruments made from the materials
around, when traditional instruments are too expensive.

Jamie


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:20:45 EDT

Hence the wonders of Rock and Roll

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: xtc
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:22:30 EDT


the songs are fine, no real ground breaking, other than Andy Partridge seems
to be adding Keith Richards type guitar to the Beatles, beach boys influence
that he has been exploring in the past 10 years

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Feminism and sorry(not sorry for feminism, sorry for offtopic)
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:48:54 CDT

Well well well,
with all this recent talk on the list name i feel even worse for how
drastically off topic this is.
but i'm desperate (well, sort of desperate) to find an intelligent email
list on feminist subjects.  onelist/egroups either didn't fit my preferences
or only had two or three members.  i figured there had to be at least on
person on this list who knew of one or two good ones.

i'm not really interested in feminists who only call themselves this because
Sarah McLaughlin calls herself one,
  and i'm more interested in people who educate themselves a la Betty
Friedan and Susan Faludi
rather than Naomi Wolf/Robert Bly.

   again, i know this is horribly off topic but i don't really know where
else i could find a trustworthy recommendation.

  thanks in advance,
    -samuel y.



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ljova as last-minute replacement, monday night @Cornelia
Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:56:26 -0400

Hi!

I'm now a last-minute replacement for this interesting show on Monday nig=
ht.
Peter Herbert is Austrian, now lives in NYC. I've heard him improvising
several times, and am very fond of his work.

If you're free, come check it out, I'd be very glad to see you.  Let me k=
now
if you're planning on coming.

Warmest,

Ljova

********************************
Peter Herbert - An evening of chamber music

Monday, June 26, 2000, 9:00 p.m.

Featuring:
Alexandra Montano (vocals), Mary Wooten (cello), Ljova (viola), John
Mettam (percussion), Mike Holober (piano), Mark Helias (bass), Peter Epst=
ein
(alto), Peter Herbert (bass)

Program-compositions by Peter Herbert:
'fragments of a city' for tape, 2 basses and alto (NY premiere); 'climbin=
g'
bass concerto, originally for string orchestra, now for piano and bass so=
lo
(NY premiere); 'muhler' for alto and low strings; the fifteen coins for l=
ow
strings, mezzo and percussion, poem by Jorge Luis Borges (world premiere)

This concert is made possible with the support of the Austrian Cultural
Institute New York.

The =93one drink minimum=94 Contemporary Classical Series
Cornelia Street Cafe
29 Cornelia Street
(between Bleecker and West 4th)
New York, NY
[phone]

Peter Herbert Page: http://www.azizamusic.com/peterherbert/
Cornelia Street Cafe page: http://www.corneliastcafe.com/
Ljova page: http://Ljova.com/

--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: dolphymonk!!
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:11:41 -0600


>'free improv -electronic-whatever' also becomes
>quickly a 'style' where there is nothing creative and just the repetioin
>of those 'incredible sounds',  'wicked rhythmpatterns' etc.
    >Just compare the achievements of the new electronic scene with what
>Brian Eno did. (i do not mean to say that the thing is worthless, just
>to put emphasis on the fact that BE changes and fights for the sound)

The "free improv-electronic-whatever" offers nothing creative and consists
only of repetition?  Is this what you mean to say?  These performers don't
"fight" for or "change" the sounds?

Whose work did you have in mind?


>We see the work on the music, not just a finishede product. And the way i
see it, Barry,
>that's much more interesting.

I think there is plenty of "work" or "struggle" evident in a recording of
improvised electronic music.


Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chi-Town >>> Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 11:23:31 -0700

I'm another person considering a possible move to either Minneapolis or =
Chicago and I'm impressed with the creative music activities in Chicago... =
Any info on the scene in Minneapolis? Is there one? 8-)

-Miko Biffle


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: fishing with John
Date: 23 Jun 2000 12:23:34 -0600


I just saw an episode of this three(?) volume series last night.
John is John Lurie of Lounge Lizards fame.  The show is home movie quality.
John takes friends of his out fishing.  The episodes I saw included shark
fishing with Jim Jarmusch and fishing for Red Snapper with Tom Waits in
Jamacia.  The high point for me was when Tom Waits put a Snapper in his
pants to help with depression.  There is narration thoughout in a sports
event kind of way.  Pretty tounge and cheek.  There's also a bunch of
bizzare sounds - school children, cows - and music accompanying the film.
Funny stuff, especially if you like the fishermen.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sun Ra corp face
Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:37:06 CDT

hey,
i was in big fat corporate-face Barnes'n'noble and saw a pretty and colorful
hardcover in the music section about Sun Ra. didn't have time to look
through it.  i'm not huge on reading biographical works about musicians
cover to cover but Sun Ra seems so important to me on a cultural,
sociological level and in relation to civil rights and philosophy and stuff.
   any thoughts on this book or perhaps other publications about the sun
god?
  thanks,
   -samuel y.



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:54:23 CDT



I'm another person considering a possible move to either Minneapolis or
Chicago and I'm impressed with the creative music activities in Chicago...
Any info on the scene in Minneapolis? Is there one? 8-)

-Miko Biffle


Well,
lived in Minneapolis for two years.  Einsturzende Neubauten came a couple
years ago. Stereolab's visits have been semi-frequent. sonic youth and
stereolab came a little while ago.   and Minneapolis is a "twin city" with
St. Paul.  St. Paul is largely disliked by people who are "street, yo!" i.e.
streetsmart and low income, or pretending to be low income. i also dislike
St. Paul and maybe that's because i'm low income.  St. Paul is really clean
and known for being very conservative or republican or catholic etc.  mostly
white people there.  my point? The twin cities sports ONE jazz club: The
Dakota.  which is located in St. Paul.
  I have spent lots of time at this club for lack of any other good weekend
shows that I have been able to find.  i like traditional jazz, so that's
okay.  the stuff played there is almost always traditional stuff.  with
exceptions only to those of national repute- Dave Holland came this year and
Steve Lacy w/Roswell Rudd.
  Cecil Taylor played at Tedd Mann Concert Hall at the University of
Minnesota campus.  Bill Frisell (i think) came to the Walker Art Museum with
his group (octet).  Chick Corea played somewhere (at 50$ a ticket).  and Pat
Metheny played somewhere at 35-40$ a ticket.

  not a bad feast of musicians.  for me, it hasn't been enough access to
GOOD and AFFORDABLE shows.  most things i couldn't go to because i couldn't
afford it.
  it just depends how much good live music you need per month. if you don't
need too much, minneapolis should be pretty good.
    local improvisatory/avant garde scenes are scarce, and in my opinion
full of lame, pretentious gimmicks.

on this note...  I am moving to Vermont this fall... 50 miles from Albany NY
in SW Vermont.  anything around here other than me having to go to Boston or
NYcity?  does Albany have anything?  how is their orchestra/how much do
seats cost?

   i know, i know, I ramble.
        -samuel y.


-


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Moffett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cleveland info
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:15:26 -0400

I'm going to Cleveland next week for a writer's conference and am just
curious about good places for live music, cd's, bookstores, etc.  Email
me privately so we don't clog up the list.  Thanks in advance.

Matt

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 13:52:48 -0700 (PDT)

samuel yrui, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>on this note...  I am moving to Vermont this fall... 50 miles from Albany NY
>in SW Vermont.  anything around here other than me having to go to Boston or
>NYcity?

    I'm pretty sure Northampton, Mass. is close
    to SW Vermont...and they are known to have
    some good improv shows and a good record
    store...I think Sonic Youth have a summer
    place near there, and are involved in
    the local scene...isn't that cool label
    erudite in Northampton?

    mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 14:20:05 -0700

> local improvisatory/avant garde scenes are scarce, and in my opinion =
full of lame, pretentious gimmicks.

That's pretty discouraging sounding. I'm looking for a fertile playing/perf=
orming scene for experimental / creative / improv based stuff. I'd say =
Chi-Town is probably the call for the midwest. I'm close to San Francisco =
(Santa Cruz) right now and there's quite a lot of people playing this kind =
of stuff and at least a few regular places that it happens... Santa Cruz =
has far less places to play... but I'm working on that.

Thanks for the comment Samuel? Anyone else know of underground / academia =
stuff that might be happening in Minneapolis? There's gotta be someplace =
for abberant players to converge.

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "& c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Siddhartha
Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:40:13 EDT

I recently read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha.  It was extremely meaningful to
me.  I found the message about finding for your own path to be one of the
most important that I've gotten out of a book.  Does anyone else have any
feelings or insights on this book?

Zach
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: wasp star
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:40:17 -0500


<< np: xtc - wasp star (apple venus vol. 2)
  >>

>>>how is this record?

if you think, as you should, that xtc can do no wrong as long as todd rundgren
isn't in the room, then pick it up. apple venus vol. 1 was brilliant, and this
doesn't compare, but it's as good as much of their stuff. there are some really
great songs, and 2 of colin's 3 are quite good. ugly cover art, tho.

kg

np: amy denio - birthing chair blues



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:26:33 -0400

>samuel yrui, demi-God and Icon sez:
> >
> >on this note...  I am moving to Vermont this fall... 50 miles from Albany NY
> >in SW Vermont.  anything around here other than me having to go to Boston or
> >NYcity?
>
>    I'm pretty sure Northampton, Mass. is close
>    to SW Vermont...and they are known to have
>    some good improv shows and a good record
>    store...

    Yes!  The Northampton area has been more than kind to all
forms of alternative music. I have always credited this to the large
number of  yippies, hippies and 60's radicals who settled there over
the years.(but maybe I'm overly-nostalgic).  Also, check out the
colleges; Miford Graves, I believe, has a chair at Bennington, and
David Moss is a vermont native, and has taught there. You never know
what you'll discover. I live in Ct. and my favorite "local" bands
include Forever Einstein, and Anthony Braxton!

Rich


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Siddhartha
Date: 23 Jun 2000 14:50:13 -0700


On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:40:13 EDT  "& c." wrote:
>
> I recently read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha.  It was extremely meaningful to
> me.  I found the message about finding for your own path to be one of the
> most important that I've gotten out of a book.  Does anyone else have any
> feelings or insights on this book?

Depending on how you interpret the message of Hesse it is either a good
book or an sad one (again IMHO):

    good book: the message is that by spending too much time at
        looking above your head you end up loosing contact
        with people around round you and die in total
        solitude (religious people here might differ...)

        In short: Siddhartha might reach God but he totally
        failed connecting to people around him (his son, for
        example, as well as the prostitute)

    sad one: you are impressed by Siddhartha and his search for
        "elevation" and he might be a role model for you

Surprisingly, many people are in awe with the mystic message. From a
litterary point of view, the didactic aspect of the book is a little
bit annoying.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alastair Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Frisell
Date: 23 Jun 2000 22:51:07 +0100

Zornithologists:

I've heard that Bill Frisell played in a trio with Percy Jones (bass) and a
drummer (???) in the late seventies/early eighties. Can anyone shed any
light on this line up? Did they ever record?

Thanks for your help

Alastair

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:53:33 -0400

what are those folks over at knitmedia doing? They just put up the
most confusing website I have ever seen.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:08:06 -0700


On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:53:33 -0400  Jason Tors wrote:
>
> what are those folks over at knitmedia doing? They just put up the
> most confusing website I have ever seen.

Jason, you have been here long enough to know better :-).

Usually, when the KF web site is revamped, we know that the KF was able to get
a new person to take care of their web. A few months later, you start to
realize that the enthousiasm is down (symptom? the updates are less and less
frequent, until you learn more about the KF new releases by reading the adds
in magazines). Then there is is black out period where nothing happens
anymore. At this time you know that the person in charge of the web has
left toward greener horizons... Period of this cycle? About 6 months.

    Patrice.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 23 Jun 2000 23:09:41 +0100

>what are those folks over at knitmedia doing? They just put up the
>most confusing website I have ever seen.

it could be *so* much better. sigh.



--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [23.6.2000]:
< indo | amon tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere |
graham haynes | zed bias >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: sun ra reading
Date: 23 Jun 2000 15:31:48 -0700

i found "space is the place" by john szwed readable with  fair share of
insight into the music, the philosophy, the commune and the players.

as for the music, there was a thred 6 months or so ago with
recommendations and descriptions. check the archives. the life and
career and music of sonny was extensive and rich and fascinating.
definitely an iconclast.

martin

np. andrew hill "dusk" -- the man seems to have mellowed quite well
with age, rounding the edges on his angles. is this really his first
album since two soul note releases in 1986 (as per Penguin guide)?

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 23 Jun 2000 18:43:28 EDT


In a message dated 6/23/00 5:55:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< what are those folks over at knitmedia doing? They just put up the
most confusing website I have ever seen. >>

yeah, it's bad. but the one for the Cooler (www.thecooler.com) is arguably
worse. at least there's some info, eventually, on the KF one.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: neongreen7 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 17:49:34 -0500

i've lived here for all of my 18 years. it's an okay place to live, but the
music scene is pretty shitty for any sort of jazz or avant. even out rock
scene is pretty lame. just a bunch of people that are not quite good enough
to make it anywhere else. the local jazz musicians are brutal, save for a
few.  the scene sucks for anyone that really knows anything about the new
york scene. shows do come through here, but they are usually packed with
pretentious snobs that leave hald way through the show because "this isn't
jazz!". that's exactly what happened at the uri caine show. i could tell
that a lot of people came hoping to hear dave grusin style stuff because it
was billed as "jazz piano". a lot of people just looked confused and
threatened.

one more thing. driving sucks here. the winters are brutal and the summers
are 85% road work. it never lets up. rush hour is brutal most days.

that's my rant....

craig


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Alan Lankin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: if you don't want it...
Date: 23 Jun 2000 18:00:26 -0400


> Martin
>
> np. Egberto Gismonti -- Sanfona (does anybody know why all but one of
> Gismonti's ECM albums have been suddenly deleted?)

They were probably deleted during the distributor change; hopefully they'll
re-emerge soon.

Alan Lankin
[e-mail]

---
jazzmatazz == http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz
upcoming jazz CDs == http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz/upcomingcds.html
jazz salelist == http://home.att.net/~lankina/jazz/forsale.html
jazz trading post == http://www.egroups.com/group/jtp



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Biffle" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Minneapolis
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:30:15 -0700

>>> neongreen7 <[e-mail]> 06/23 3:49 PM >>>
> even out rock scene is pretty lame. just a bunch of people that are not =
quite good enough to make it anywhere else. the local jazz musicians are =
brutal, save for a few.  the scene sucks for anyone that really knows =
anything about the new york scene.=20

Yep... Sorry its tough there... I think it's pretty similar in MOST place =
though... it's easy to feel pretty deprived if you want to actually PLAY =
music like that. 5 people in every 1000 might be a realistic ratio of =
acceptance. In Santa Cruz, we are fortunate to have a couple clubs which =
might actually book someone like Meridian w/Percy Howard, Frith or Vernon =
Reid and co. or Henry Kaiser... but even those groups exhibit a certain =
level of structure... Someone like Peter Kowald might have an audience of =
15-20 folks or worse... (as he did up in Oakland where I saw him).=20

It seems that the University of CA, Santa Cruz has a pretty cool scene =
happening with William Winant on staff. A group of his students have a =
group called Estradasphere who blend Eastern European, Thrash, Metal ala =
Mr. Bungle who are pretty happening. They're on tour now with Trey =
Spruance's group, Secret Chiefs 3. Now to find a way into that scene =
without attending the program is the trick.

> shows do come through here, but they are usually packed with pretentious =
snobs that leave hald way through the show because "this isn't jazz!". =
that's exactly what happened at the uri caine show. i could tell that a =
lot of people came hoping to hear dave grusin style stuff because it was =
billed as "jazz piano". a lot of people just looked confused and threatened=
.=20

It's interesting just how bent the trad crowd gets when they don't hear =
their II V I progressions being played ad nauseaum...=20

-Miko


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: if you don't want it...
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:35:41 -0700 (PDT)

[e-mail], demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>after the suggestion that this listserv change it's name, i did some
>thinking and realized that my name doesn't suit me as well as i might
>like.
>
>a more fitting name for me would be "zornlist." so if you guys are done
>with it, pass it over here.

    I'm sorry Martin, but humor isn't allowed
    on the zorn-list. Please cease and desist.
    heh.

    mike iron-fist rizzi



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: tzadik.com (was Re: www.knittingfactory.com)
Date: 23 Jun 2000 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT)

>yeah, it's bad. but the one for the Cooler (www.thecooler.com) is arguably
>worse.

    ouch, that IS bad.

    I may regret asking this...what improvements would
    y'all like to see on the tzadik website?

    I have my own ideas of things to do (time
    willing) and would like to fix some of the
    things that bug me (having the list of releases
    in both frames, for example) that I can do
    something about. And some I can't really
    change (like the shopping cart software...sigh).

    Please email me privately with your comments
    and curses.

    thanks,
    mike


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell
Date: 23 Jun 2000 20:50:25 -0400

>Zornithologists:
>
>I've heard that Bill Frisell played in a trio with Percy Jones (bass) and a
>drummer (???) in the late seventies/early eighties. Can anyone shed any
>light on this line up? Did they ever record?

    The band you are thinking of was Stonetiger. They existed
from late 82 till Mid 84.
Mike Clarke from Brand X was the first drummer, followed by Dougie
Bowne. near the end they added Anton Sanko on keyboards.  They
recorded a demo in 1983 but nothing came of it.
They were a great live band, and I think, Frisell's first attempts at
really cranking it up. Its funny how he has come full circle now,
with his current projects sounding (stylistically at least) a lot
like when he first started in the late 70's.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 23 Jun 2000 20:13:03 -0700

Can you spot the oxymoron in the following paragraph?

Knitting Factory Delays Continue: The construction delays that prevented
Knitting Factory Hollywood from opening on its originally scheduled date in
early June have still not been resolved, according to the club's CEO,
Michael Dorf. "The contractor doesn't want to promise to complete the job
until the end of July," Dorf says, "although obviously I'm hoping it will be
earlier. But, as embarrassing as these delays have been, I'm not going to
open until the club is everything we promised it would be." The current
projected date for that to take place is the first week in August.
(Thursday, LA Times)

it could be *so* much better. sigh.






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (otto)
Subject: good news from the Beeb
Date: 24 Jun 2000 08:22:31 +0200

Hi everybody,

BBC radio 3 has something special to offer next Saturday (July 1st):


18:00 Jazz File
Downtown Avent Garde: Steve Beresford presents a four-part series on virtuoso jazz
saxophonist John Zorn, who has been at the heart of the New York music scene.

23:30 Jazz on 3
Tonight's concert was given by maverick New York saxophonist John Zorn, who leads two of his
compellingly original bands.


Best,

Siegfried








-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: What Joey's Up To
Date: 24 Jun 2000 02:29:04 +0000

As promised a few weeks ago, here's a snippet from my recent interview
with Joey where he talks about his current projects aside from Down
Home.
The complete interview will be downloadable in the upcoming "issue" (I
don't know what do you call it?) of DooBop, and a profile based around
the interview will be in the Summer 2000 issue of The Jazz Report.

James Hale

Hale: At the same time, you also started another band with Marc Ribot
and John Medeski that generated a lot of attention. What are your plans
for that trio?

Baron: That was a special project for me. It's more of a live thing.
It's been difficult to get everyone together, so that project sort of
just happens when it happens. It's really fun when it does. I've written
a few pieces especially for that instrumentation and it=92s pretty
powerful. Marc and John are both very busy, so it's more like a project
for special situations. I haven't gone into the studio with them because
I've already recorded a lot of that material. If something develops out
of the period of writing I'm going into I'll probably go into the studio
with them, but I didn't see the need to re-record things.

From being in the studio and working live with Down Home I really
started to hear how the Ribot-Medeski band could sound. I wanted to
explore a rougher kind of texture. It's a little thicker, a little more
in your face, noisy (laughs).

Hale: And you have another band happening too?

Baron: Out of both of those things I developed a new band I'm calling
Killer Joey. It's a local group, and we've been playing very frequently
at Tonic in New York. We recorded a self-produced CD that we sell at
gigs and we did a little West Coast tour and had a great time. We'll be
doing more things as time goes on.



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jim Kan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 24 Jun 2000 02:48:12 -0400

>     I'm pretty sure Northampton, Mass. is close
>     to SW Vermont...and they are known to have
>     some good improv shows and a good record
>     store...I think Sonic Youth have a summer
>     place near there, and are involved in
>     the local scene...isn't that cool label
>     erudite in Northampton?
>
>     mike

The best things going in Northampton aren't actually in Northampton -- one
guy seems to own all the clubs here, and the bookings lean heavily towards
folky singer/songwriter stuff and deadhead fodder.

Michael Ehlers, the guy who runs the Eremite label, does a very good improv
series at the Unitarian Meetinghouse in Amherst, which is about 10-15
minutes away.  To give you an idea, Alan Silva/Sabir Mateen/Wilbur Morris
are playing tomorrow night, and last weekend was Joe Maneri/Barre Phillips.

The other interesting place is Flywheel in Easthampton.  They have a new
music series that seems to be mostly people from the Boston improv scene,
although I did see John Butcher/Gerry Hemingway there.  And I think Kevin
Drumm played there recently.

The colleges (there are 5 of them...) also do interesting stuff on occasion.

I have yet to run into Sonic Youth at Stop & Shop.

Jim


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tim Blechmann <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Member
Date: 24 Jun 2000 09:42:06 +0200

Hi group,

I am new in this list. Short about me: I live in a town near
Stuttgart/Germany an next year I will finish school. The music I
listen to covers Jazz since about 1960. Musicians such as John
Coltrane, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, Jaco Pastorius, Keith
Jarrett, Fred Frith, Elliott Sharp, Bobby Previte, Dave Douglas, Bill
Laswell, Uri Caine but also composers like Stockhausen, Steve Reich,
Philip Glass and, of course, John Zorn.


PEACE

 Tim                          mailto:[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bennington/Vermont
Date: 24 Jun 2000 10:52:33 CDT

RICHEY says:

      Also, check out the
colleges; Miford Graves, I believe, has a chair at Bennington, and
David Moss is a vermont native, and has taught there.


Interesting that you mention Bennington and Milford Graves.  Because I'm
enrolled for my freshman year there starting this fall, and I'm probably
taking a class with him.  I've heard his name here and there rolling around
but haven't had a chance to find out why.  Are there some websites etc and
recommended recordings of him?  Who has he worked with?
  Also, my saxophone instructor there will be Bruce Williamson, who I guess
has played with Dave Douglas.  Any info on him/other people he's worked
with.  i'm also interested in the double bass teacher there, Christopher
Faris.  I know I could probably just find out in two months and/or do some
calling but i'm curious what viewpoint i could get from people here.  for
all i know Bennington teachers or students could be members of zorny-list
world.
  hm.
   -samuel


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: siddhartha/klossowski
Date: 24 Jun 2000 11:48:20 EDT

I felt the same way, except it was Demian. It really changed my perspective
drastically.

Has anyone read "Sade my Neighbor" by Klossowski? Apparently it is a sort of
analysis of Sade's philosophies...i could be wrong though.

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: www.knittingfactory.com
Date: 24 Jun 2000 18:03:49 +0100


>Usually, when the KF web site is revamped, we know that the KF was able to get
>a new person to take care of their web. A few months later, you start to
<snip>

can i just clarify something ... are we talking about the same
knitting factory that secured about four million bucks in venture
capital last year??? (i know we are - see below for more details).
surely they can they afford to do a website properly???

i'm interested in this for numerous professional reasons, as well as
a fan and customer, so any opinions gratefully received.

cheers,
dan.

____________________________________________________________________
in FINANCE

   ->  KnitMedia Secures $1.2M, On Financial Roll

       To access links and related news:
       http://news.webnoize.com/cgi-bin/n/item.rq?ID=5840

       New media entertainment provider KnitMedia has secured $1.2
       million in private financing that, combined with a recent
       investment of $3 million, will let the company expand its wired
       empire into Los Angeles and Europe, and further develop its
       talent and management rosters.

       First Analysis Venture Capital provided the new equity
       investment, part of a total round KnitMedia received in August
       from New York-based The Argentum Group, which specializes in
       funding later-stage growth companies [see 8.05.99 KnitMedia to
       Use Funding For Music, Internet Expansion].

       First Analysis manages about $500 million in assets, focusing
       on both early-stage and emerging-growth ventures.

       KnitMedia operates New York's famed Knitting Factory nightclub,
       which webcasts every show from its main performing space, and
       plans soon to sell through its web site downloadable music
       files of live performances recorded at its club [see 5.24.99
       KnitMedia to Digitally Distribute Live Performances].

       A second Knitting Factory is scheduled to open in Los Angeles
       in February 2000, and a third in Berlin, Germany, by May of
       next year. All the clubs will be connected by high-speed links,
       so that performances may be webcast, according to KnitMedia.

       KnitMedia plans to use the new investment to fund the L.A.
       club, expand the artist roster of the Knitting Factory Works
       record label, and hire executives for its management team.

       The investment comes as wired nightclub competition heats up.
       House of Blues Entertainment has inaugurated a series of
       pay-per-view webcasts likely to grow now that the company has
       acquired Universal Concerts and its various live music venues.
       SFX Entertainment, the world's largest producer, promoter and
       venue operator, is developing a webcast plan of its own, as
       well as an online ticket-trading area [see related items].

       In addition to its nightclub and record label operations,
       KnitMedia owns 50% of the Digital Club Festival (formerly the
       Intel New York Music Festival), a webcast extravaganza
       historically marketed in tandem with Jupiter Communications'
       Plug.In music conference.

       Among recent KnitMedia projects is KnitTV, which features live
       webcasts from four Knitting Factory stages nightly, as well as
       archived performances. KnitTV is one of Apple Computer's newly
       launched QuickTime TV channels [see 7.21.99 RollingStone.com,
       VH1, Knitting Factory Help Launch Apple's QuickTime TV].

       KnitMedia plans to produce a music video program for
       Cablevision's broadband Internet service.

____________________________________________________________________
--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [24.6.2000]:
< marc ribot y los cubanos postizos | steve gurley | indo | amon
tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bennington/Vermont
Date: 24 Jun 2000 13:35:55 EDT

I bet that you will have a blast studying with the various people from
Bennington.  Milfrd Graves is one of the most important drummers and
percussionists around.  He has recorded with Albert Ayler, Sonny Sharrock,
and David Murray.  John Zorn has performed with him.  Chris Farris has
recorded with the late alto saxaphonist Jimmy Stewert, an amazing musician
with whom I had the opportunity to work with when I lived in Philadelphia.
 all the best to you,

Bruce Eisenbeil

www.eisenbeil.com

In a message dated 6/24/00 11:53:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Interesting that you mention Bennington and Milford Graves.  Because I'm
 enrolled for my freshman year there starting this fall, and I'm probably
 taking a class with him.  I've heard his name here and there rolling around
 but haven't had a chance to find out why.  Are there some websites etc and
 recommended recordings of him?  Who has he worked with?
   Also, my saxophone instructor there will be Bruce Williamson, who I guess
 has played with Dave Douglas.  Any info on him/other people he's worked
 with.  i'm also interested in the double bass teacher there, Christopher
 Faris.  I know I could probably just find out in two months and/or do some
 calling but i'm curious what viewpoint i could get from people here.  for
 all i know Bennington teachers or students could be members of zorny-list
 world.
   hm.
    -samuel
  >>

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Bennington/Vermont
Date: 24 Jun 2000 14:28:15 -0600




>Interesting that you mention Bennington and Milford Graves.  Because I'm
>enrolled for my freshman year there starting this fall, and I'm probably
>taking a class with him.  I've heard his name here and there rolling
>around but haven't had a chance to find out why.  Are there some websites
etc
>and recommended recordings of him?  Who has he worked with?

Graves hasn't recorded much at all.  Probably the most (only?) available
recording of his is his solo album "Grand Unification" on Tzadik.  As Bruce
said he has played with Albert Ayler, Sonny Sharrock, and David Murray but I
think the recordings of him existed in another time on the now out of print
ESP label.  I know there has been some attempt to reissue the ESP recordings
by the Italian label Get Back.  Does anyone else know if any Graves material
has been reissued?

Matt Wirzbicki


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Siddhartha
Date: 24 Jun 2000 16:36:47 -0400

"Surprisingly, many people are in awe with the mystic message"

I think you are looking at the surface of the book.  I found the "mystic"
message to be a unique way to present a age old problem and point of view on
it.  I see the book to be a metaphor for the relations between youth and
older people.
Adults (parents namely) want younger people (children) to benefit from them
having made mistakes.  Children want to go it alone and make the mistakes. I
feel Hesse is greatly in favor of taking all life has to offer and running
with it and making sense of the mistakes you make.  You learn from the
mistakes until you find your ideal life.  If you don't, at least you tried.
Try every dinner at a restaurant until you find one you like, don't limit
yourself to steak because someone said the chicken and seafood aren't good.
Find for your self that they're awful.

The enlightenment Siddhartha found was his personal happiness.  He tried to
impart his happiness on his son and the son rejected it.  The son has to
find his own happiness and fulfillment.  This interpretation might just be
my youth screaming out for freedom, or not.

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bennington/Vermont
Date: 24 Jun 2000 17:19:21 -0500

> Graves hasn't recorded much at all.  Probably the most (only?) available
> recording of his is his solo album "Grand Unification" on Tzadik.  As Bruce
> said he has played with Albert Ayler, Sonny Sharrock, and David Murray but I
> think the recordings of him existed in another time on the now out of print
> ESP label.  I know there has been some attempt to reissue the ESP recordings
> by the Italian label Get Back.  Does anyone else know if any Graves material
> has been reissued?

Graves recorded copiously for ESP, but, as you mention, much of it is out of
print or hard to find right now.  He's also on Sonny Sharrock's noisy,
shambolic "Black Woman," currently available as an expensive Japanese import.

Of what's available, Albert Ayler's "Love Cry" would be a good start.  The duo
CD with David Murray on DIW shouldn't be too hard to find.  Graves is also on
the newish "35th Reunion" by the New York Art Quartet (with Reggie Workman,
Roswell Rudd, John Tchicai and Amiri Baraka) also on DIW, but, as I've not
heard this yet, I can't say anything about it.  Anyone else?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(newly back online after a complete hard drive meltdown last Wednesday, so if
you've sent me personal mail recently and I've not replied, please try me
again...)



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Frisell
Date: 24 Jun 2000 16:26:24 -0500

I belive Bill was playing with Joey Baron before they both migrated over
to Naked City, and there are plenty of pre-Zorn Frisell recordings out there.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2000, Alastair Wilson <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Zornithologists:
>
>I've heard that Bill Frisell played in a trio with Percy Jones (bass) and a
>drummer (???) in the late seventies/early eighties. Can anyone shed any
>light on this line up? Did they ever record?
>
>Thanks for your help
>
>Alastair
>
>-
>
>



| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | http://www.mp3.com/craque | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com  | | http://www.mp3.com/graycode | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Stones [was Re: zorn in your face]
Date: 24 Jun 2000 17:38:14 -0500

Peter Gannushkin wrote:

> JT> I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
> JT> the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.
>
> We always meet them on concerts. Definitely on all Zorn's and
> Friedlander's shows. Seems they are very special people because they
> were sitting at VIP seats on Zorn's Chamber Music and had Bell
> Atlantic Jazz Festival VIP cards. Do you know who are they?

As others have mentioned, they are Irving and Stephanie Stone.  They are the
patron saints of the downtown scene and have been a presence on the New York
avant-garde circuit since Ayler was at the Vanguard, and probably much
earlier.  Zorn and Tim Berne cite them as major inspirations, and I know
that they've quietly helped out Michael Dorf and the Knit from the
beginning, thus their carte blanche status at any show they care to visit.
I know their presence is seen as a vote of confidence by many artists.

Irving used to be a civil servant of the city, while Stephanie was a
singer/pianist who has recently returned to the keyboard at places like
Tonic and the Vision Festival.  They are simply lovely people, the source of
countless stories of New York music history, and an inspiration to me in all
kinds of ways - not just musical, but as a personal relationship that has
lasted for years based on mutual respect and common ground.

Next time you see them, say hello!

> JT> Of course bruce lee galager was front row dead center sporting is
> JT> tzadik tshirt.
>
> Yes, we were almost behind him on the next row.

That's "Gallanter," by the way, not "Galager."

Helpfully,
Steve Smith
[e-mail]



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Diego Gruber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: dolphymonk!!
Date: 24 Jun 2000 10:22:09 -0500

>
> > I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the
> sense
> > that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
> > recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
> > control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
> > in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
> > education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?

Someone else already  said it, but I think as well that sometimes limitations
bring out the most creative sides of an artist, so that he may overcome such
limitations. I've had similar experiences. I used to paint regularly  when I was
in school and shortrly after that (not anymore with so much work and study). I
also had art classes, and i realized sometimes that i would use a technique, and
then  learn this technique was considered 'improper'  in a conventional sense.
So I started using more conventional techniques and the results were that my
paintings would look more realistic, but i wasn't entirely satisfied with them,
cause i felt they were lacking something more profound, what i'd call my
personal touch, which is what i appreciated by using my own techniques, so i
went back and kept painting 'improperly', and in this way i found that my
ignorance about some rules of painting actually helped me be more creative and
develop a 'style'. Of course, by this i don't mean that learning these correct
techniques was bad or unuseful in any way, I'm just glad i learned them after i
had made my mistakes, or I would otherwise just be doing imitations.

D




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: ESP
Date: 24 Jun 2000 17:53:48 -0400

>Graves hasn't recorded much at all.  Probably the most (only?) available
>recording of his is his solo album "Grand Unification" on Tzadik.  As Bruce
>said he has played with Albert Ayler, Sonny Sharrock, and David Murray but I
>think the recordings of him existed in another time on the now out of print
>ESP label.  I know there has been some attempt to reissue the ESP recordings
>by the Italian label Get Back.  Does anyone else know if any Graves material
>has been reissued?

    The whole Esp catalog was reissued on CD a few years ago.
Since the license expired, those issues are available all over as
cut-outs. Cadence still has some for $8. There is a new issue that's
starting to come out with better packaging. I saw a few at Other
Music the last time I was there. Has anyone compared the sound
between the 2 reissues?

Rich


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bennington/Vermont
Date: 24 Jun 2000 18:11:14 EDT


In a message dated 6/24/00 5:23:05 PM, [e-mail]
writes:

<< Graves recorded copiously for ESP, but, as you mention, much of it is out
of
print or hard to find right now.  He's also on Sonny Sharrock's noisy,
shambolic "Black Woman," currently available as an expensive Japanese import.
>>

there's also the in-and-out of print Meditation Among Us (DIW), under
Milford's name with a band of Japanese musicians, Kaoru Abe, Toshinori Kondo,
Mototeru Takagui (tenor), and Toshiyuki Tsuchitori (drums, percussion) from
1978. I always liked this one.

in general, though, I'm not sure how well Milford translates to record. go
see him live if you have the chance. it's about more than the music; he
leaves everyone feeling really good. I know that sounds cliched, but it's
true.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sean Terwilliger" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Chi-Town/Vermont/Minneapolis
Date: 24 Jun 2000 19:15:00 -0400

Well, I live in Northampton, MA and there is one great club here, The Iron
Horse Music Hall. Umass, in Amherst and Smith, here in 'Hamp both produce
good shows at times. For not being a "big city", this is a pretty cool area.
Yousef Lateef lives just outside of Amherst and teaches at Hampshire
College.

-Sean

>     I'm pretty sure Northampton, Mass. is close
>     to SW Vermont...and they are known to have
>     some good improv shows and a good record
>     store...I think Sonic Youth have a summer
>     place near there, and are involved in
>     the local scene...isn't that cool label
>     erudite in Northampton?
>
>     mike
>
>
> -
>
>


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: free jazz underground
Date: 24 Jun 2000 19:49:10 EDT

here are thurston moore's top ten free jazz underground records...
the only one i have is Brotzmann's "nipples"...if anyone has any clues to
obtaining any of these please email me.

1 dave burrell- echo
2 milford graves and don pullen- nommo
3 arthur doyle- plus 4-alabama feeling
4 sonny murray- sonny's time now
5 the ric colbeck quartet- the sun is coming up
6 john tchicai and cadentia nova danica- afrodisiaca
7 rashied ali and frank lowe- duo exchange
8 peter brotzmann sextet/quartet- nipples (got it)
9 the marzette watts ensemble- self titled
10 marion brown- in sommerhausen
    black artists group- in paries, aries
    frank wright quartet- uhuru na umoja
    dr. umezu-seikatsu kojyo iinkai- selftitled
    cecil taylor- indent part 2

last five are tied.

thanks.

ben


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Dikemans" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Videos or Elegy and the Big Gundown
Date: 24 Jun 2000 18:10:16 -0600

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I'm sorry if this has been discussed before but I'm just rejoining, so I =
wanted to know if anyone had information on the videos of Elegy and The =
Big Gundown.  Where you might be able to find them is my main question, =
if they are available at all, or if any of you have them.

Thanks
john

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm sorry if this has been discussed =
before but I'm=20
just rejoining, so I wanted to know if anyone had information on the =
videos of=20
Elegy and The Big Gundown.  Where you might be able to find them is =
my main=20
question, if they are available at all, or if any of you have =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>john</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: free jazz underground
Date: 24 Jun 2000 20:19:26 -0400 (EDT)

Hmmm. . . I think this e-mail software just
mysteriously deleted my first attempt.  Trying again:

The Arthur Doyle 4 is in print, and Forced Exposure has
copies (www.fe.org).  Also, I believe that Sonny's Time
Now is currently in print on DIW.  If you check the FE
website, I bet you may find that some others have been
reissued recently too (cf. "Nipples").

Hope that helps,
Jesse



Quoting [e-mail]:

> here are thurston moore's top ten free jazz
underground records...
> the only one i have is Brotzmann's "nipples"...if
anyone has any clues to
> obtaining any of these please email me.
>
> 1 dave burrell- echo
> 2 milford graves and don pullen- nommo
> 3 arthur doyle- plus 4-alabama feeling
> 4 sonny murray- sonny's time now
> 5 the ric colbeck quartet- the sun is coming up
> 6 john tchicai and cadentia nova danica- afrodisiaca
> 7 rashied ali and frank lowe- duo exchange
> 8 peter brotzmann sextet/quartet- nipples (got it)
> 9 the marzette watts ensemble- self titled
> 10 marion brown- in sommerhausen
>     black artists group- in paries, aries
>     frank wright quartet- uhuru na umoja
>     dr. umezu-seikatsu kojyo iinkai- selftitled
>     cecil taylor- indent part 2
>
> last five are tied.
>
> thanks.
>
> ben
>
>
> -
>
>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Knit Net and one great Chicago band
Date: 24 Jun 2000 18:27:43 -0600

I've been thinking for awhile about writing something about the history
of live video on the Knitting Factory site.  From being a very poor
little single stationery cam that was on 24/7, "focused" on the Main
Stage (VERY exciting nonetheless to one who's never been to NY, let
alone the KF), to whatever the hell it is now. Sorry guys, but it's just
slipped lower and lower in my eyes.

The sound always was in and out, the picture bad, the camera not always
pointed at the players, and you never knew when it would all work, but
it sure was something to see the crew setting up the lighting and then
the equipment, the the band trickling in one by one, maybe Bill Laswell
or Marc Ribot or Masada warming up - I get goosebumps just
remembering...

I made a lot of audio recordings in those early daze, including the
events (directly caused by Mr. Z hisself, bless'm) that led to closing
the cam down for a few months.  I can see why it maybe wasn't nice to be
looking and listening in on conversations with friends family and band
members - the soundcheck that did it for Zorn I think was the one where
Dave Douglas said he was having trouble with his lip and Zorn adjusted
the setlist for him (the subsequent performance was still incredible, as
usual, but that was the night Zorn threw something over the camera at
the beginning of the second set and announced that this performance was
only for those present, or something to that effect).  The cam was down
for weeks and weeks after that incident.

When the livecam re-emerged it was sporatic, occassionally with multiple
cam angles, often requiring software updates, sometimes exciting, but
mostly not there for the shows I was most interested in.  By then, of
course, it seems Zorn was pretty disgusted with the KF's invasion of his
soundchecks and quit playing there altogether for a long time.  The
Tonic lucked out and became Z's venue of choice.

Then came an interminable period where we got a lot of marginal acts(OK,
a few jewels, but everything unscheduled, so we never knew when to tune
in) "live" on tape, not the bands actually playing on any given night,
just a continuous grab bag loop.

There's been no way for a long time of knowing who'll be on or when.
The excitement of following the KF calendar is gone.

Now I see talk of "...KnitTV, which features live webcasts from four
Knitting Factory stages nightly, as well as archived performances...".
Sounds good, anybody have any luck tuning in?

Personally I'd like to see the whole KF site "dirtier", just the facts
ma'am, no clever animations and complicated layouts.  I understand all
the arguments against a full-time web cam(song rights, privacy, etc.),
but it was sure fun, and it somehow fit with this kind of "free jazz"
thing.  I miss it.

Ah well,

Dan Kuehn
aqui en Taos, NM

PS  Another great Chicago band is Isotope 127(is that the right
number?), sort of Miles in the mid seventies - very good stuff.  They've
got at least three albums out, all way too short.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan hill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Knit Net and one great Chicago band
Date: 25 Jun 2000 01:47:53 +0100

thanks dan (one of the other dans!), for your comments on the live video thang.

<snip>
At 18:27 -0600 24/6/00, [e-mail] wrote:
>Now I see talk of "...KnitTV, which features live webcasts from four
>Knitting Factory stages nightly, as well as archived performances...".
>Sounds good, anybody have any luck tuning in?

nope. but should it be a question of luck?

rhetorical.


>Personally I'd like to see the whole KF site "dirtier", just the facts
>ma'am, no clever animations and complicated layouts.  I understand all
>the arguments against a full-time web cam(song rights, privacy, etc.),
>but it was sure fun, and it somehow fit with this kind of "free jazz"
>thing.  I miss it.

i agree with just about everything you've said here (though i didn't
know about the zorn-cam thing!). and with your concluding comment.

anyway, there's a million issues in here (i guess speaking as a new
media professional kinda guy - ahem) probably not of general interest
to the list. but imagine how it would be of general interest to the
list if *all of us* could discuss recent gigs at the knitfac? ...
it's a shame to see this huge potential not taken as seriously as the
musicians and fans take the music.


>PS  Another great Chicago band is Isotope 127(is that the right
>number?), sort of Miles in the mid seventies - very good stuff.  They've
>got at least three albums out, all way too short.
>

Isotope 217.

there's a spinoff of Tortoise. and they are pretty good too.

on the chicago live broadcast tip, there's a pretty good site called
supersphere, which has an awesome archive of video recordings of live
gigs at various chicago venues.
http://www.supersphere.com/Club/Archive/

gigs by the likes of godspeed you black emperor!, tortoise, ui, the
ex, nobukaza takemura, the ruins, uri caine, vandermark 5 etc. ....
and loads more. it's good.

cheers,
dan.

--
---+ dan hill [state51]
    ---+ new reviews on motion [25.6.2000]:
< yo la tengo | signer | marc ribot y los cubanos postizos | steve
gurley | indo | amon tobin | os mutantes >
             http://motion.state51.co.uk/   +---

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: free jazz underground
Date: 24 Jun 2000 20:49:14 EDT


In a message dated 6/24/00 7:51:11 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< here are thurston moore's top ten free jazz underground records... >>

just to slightly clarify, this is a list Thurston made for Grand Royal #2,
and is not his favorite free jazz records, but his favorite ones which were
then impossible to find on LP or on CD. a few of them have since been
reissued on CD. in other words, I think rarity is as key a factor as quality
in the list.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: siddhartha/klossowski
Date: 25 Jun 2000 01:43:53 GMT




>From: [e-mail]
>
>Has anyone read "Sade my Neighbor" by Klossowski? Apparently it is a sort
>of
>analysis of Sade's philosophies...i could be wrong though.


It's a fabulous book.  Klossowski does a splendid job of reading Sade's
impulses from a theoretical standpoint--he elucidates the notions of apathy,
perpetual motion, and destruction in Sade and sees transgression within the
context of the violence of the social order, the administration of justice,
etc.  The theory of motion is a key one since it lines up with Nietzsche's
idea of the eternal return.  What returns is what is active, a
transformative affective sense.  What does not return is the reactive, that
which repeats the old and dead categories.  Most people are incapable of
becoming active.  We could say that having the "ears" to hear Zorn (on at
least some occasions) is an active sense.  Listening to Kenny G trot out the
most banal musical cliches and only being able to cathect with that would be
a reactive sense.  On the other hand, judging music is as reactive a mode as
any other, and it's one in which very few seem to be able to disengage
themselves.  Sade and Nietzsche were among the first to develop theories of
the senses that were not simply reducible to the five senses, and thus they
became important for contemporary thinkers of the body.  Once one has a
theory of affects and of sense, one can begin to take one's leave from the
category of judgments.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: SF etc?
Date: 25 Jun 2000 07:23:23 +0200 (MET DST)

Hi,

I'm in San Francisco until July 4; any must sees (musically, that is)
please e-mail me privately

thanks

geert



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From: "sinkas" <[e-mail]>
Subject:  RE: Dying Ground
Date: 25 Jun 2000 17:16:11 +0930

Hi,
 Just wondering if anyone happened to make a tape of Kang's Dying ground at
the recent Gig?
Regards,
Case


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn article in essential guide to jazz
Date: 25 Jun 2000 18:10:49 +1000

I figured a few people may be interested, Australian jazz magazine "24
Hours" just put together an "Essential Guide To Jazz", listing who they saw
as the 75 most important figures in jazz (chronologically). The first
listing is King Oliver, the last is Zorn, though the magazine does say that
he only just scraped in to the list...


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: dolphymonk!!
Date: 25 Jun 2000 10:43:27 +0200


> >'free improv -electronic-whatever' also becomes
> >quickly a 'style' where there is nothing creative and just the repetioin
> >of those 'incredible sounds',  'wicked rhythmpatterns' etc.
>     >Just compare the achievements of the new electronic scene with what
> >Brian Eno did. (i do not mean to say that the thing is worthless, just
> >to put emphasis on the fact that BE changes and fights for the sound)
>
> The "free improv-electronic-whatever" offers nothing creative and consists
> only of repetition?  Is this what you mean to say?  These performers don't
> "fight" for or "change" the sounds?
>
> Whose work did you have in mind?

    I did not menage make myself understand... I just meant the great number
of drum&bass stuff and d&b-ambient kind of style, which seemed to be very
promising few years ago, and has now become a 'style' something not very
creative and based on the repetion of known formulas and reciepes. I can't
even think of concrete performer, just genral impresssion of the d&b scene.
    BE started doing interesting thins in the seventies, prefiguring much of
what was to come. The new techno-d&b guys seemed to be more radical, but
only for a moment: he does intersting things for nearly 30 years now, and
the enrgy behind the new guys evaporated (BTW that's the same thing that
happend to progrock-fusion guys in middle '70s. the best succeeded to
change, of course)

> >We see the work on the music, not just a finishede product. And the way i
> see it, Barry,
> >that's much more interesting.
>
> I think there is plenty of "work" or "struggle" evident in a recording of
> improvised electronic music.

Well, I think we just agree. I did not want to dismiss 'electronic
musicians' (I'm one of them, anyway...), just wanted to put emphasis on the
fact how quickly some way of being 'avant garde' can become your 'style' - a
set of tired approaches and techniques that limit your approach to music.
And 'improvisation' is often just nothing more then that (and 'radical
improvisation' also.)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Massacre
Date: 25 Jun 2000 11:55:09 +0200

May be obvious, but - IF YOU CAN CATCH THEM LIVE JUST DO IT. I did it on
friday, and still am impressed...
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Internet Cafe Concert
Date: 25 Jun 2000 08:56:01 EDT

I am writing to let you know about an upcoming gig that I think you would=20
really enjoy.  Below are the details.  Influences and associations run the=20
range of:  Miles Davis, Django Reinhardt, Eric Dolphy, John Coltrane, Jimi=20
Hendrix, Allan Holdsworth, Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, Anthony Braxton,=20
Ravi Shankar, John Zorn. =20
I hope to see you,   Bruce



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

BRUCE EISENBEIL QUARTET TO PERFORM AT THE INTERNET CAF=C9

"Eisenbeil plays in a strikingly original style, the aural equivalent of a=20
Jackson Pollack painting, laced with abstract filigree lines and an=20
undercurrent of searching lyricism." --- Downbeat, March 2000


This is NEW jazz.  Themes are turned over under sideways down to discover an=
=20
escape tunnel to the UNIVERSAL MUSIC STREAM.  With the experience that these=
=20
musicians have, the music expressed is really something to hear.

With Bruce Eisenbeil will be Warren Smith on vibes and marimba, Wilber Morri=
s=20
on upright bass, and Lucas Ligetti on drums.  On June 28 they will be=20
performing at the Internet Caf=E9  for 2 shows beginning at 9 and 10:30pm. =20=
The=20
Internet Caf=E9 is located at 82 East Third Street between 1st and 2nd Ave.=20=
=20

We hope that you can attend this concert.

WHO:
Bruce Eisenbeil - guitar
Warren Smith - vibes, marimba
Wilber Morris - bass
Lucas Ligetti - drums

WHERE:
Internet Caf=E9
82 East Third Street between 1st and 2nd Ave)
212-614-0747

WHEN:
June 28
2 sets:  9 & 10:30pm
cover:  $5

for more info:  www.eisenbeil.com

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: dolphymonk!!
Date: 25 Jun 2000 12:39:28 -0600

>I just meant the great number of drum&bass stuff and d&b-ambient kind of
>style, which seemed to be
>very promising few years ago, and has now become a 'style' something not
>very creative and based on the repetion of known formulas and reciepes.

I couldn't say.  I haven't been particularly drawn to this style but thanks
for the clarification.

>I did not want to dismiss 'electronic
>musicians' (I'm one of them, anyway...), just wanted to put emphasis on
>the fact how quickly some way of being 'avant garde' can become your
>'style'

A worthwhile thing to emphasize.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Sonic Youth/Stereolab live
Date: 25 Jun 2000 15:45:35 EDT


<< there was also a projection of
 NYC in various areas running throughout the show. the contrast of the
 children laughing and running around on the subway with the song "sunday"
was
 dizzying. >>

The films were pretty cool.  Minimal but effective...a day in the life of
NYC.  They were done by a filmaker/designer/artist named Chris Habib.  He's
done a bunch of design work for SY over the years. Thurston told me that the
little blonde girl on the subway sequence was his daughter! (Coco Hayley
Gordon Moore)

Jonathan LaMaster
Sublingual Records
www.sublingual.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matt Krefting" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz underground
Date: 25 Jun 2000 14:10:16 PDT

the rashied ali/frank lowe record was recently re-ished by knit classics (as
were a bunch of wild ali documents), and it's a fuckin' mind-blower. like
someone already said, the doyle record has been re-ished on cd as well, and
is equally fabulous. i believe the marzette watts rekkid on that list is his
savoy lp, which i've never heard (amy sheffer at tonic tonight, is anyone
going?), but his esp disk is possible to find in cut-out bins (or if some
dumb fucker sells it back and you can find it used), and it's a truly
beautiful thing in my opinion.

by the way, what did folks think of the "jazzactuel" box set? (this may have
already been discussed but i was most likely asleep). i picked it up a
coupla' weeks ago and dig it much, was wondering what other people's
opinions were/are. take it easy...

matt
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz underground / AMY SHEFFER request
Date: 25 Jun 2000 17:26:25 -0400

on 6/25/00 5:10 PM, Matt Krefting at [e-mail] wrote:

> (amy sheffer at tonic tonight, is anyone
> going?)

PLEASE, if anyone is going, or has contact info for Ms. Sheffer--

I need to know. Trying to find more info, etc. on a few Sheffer items for my
Parker discography, so I'd appreciate any help with this.

Thanks ahead of time,
RL

--
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "sinkas" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hip Hop Cobra..venue, date?
Date: 26 Jun 2000 10:33:42 +0930

Hi all,
 Can someone point me to a site about the venue for this show, and what date
it is?
the only venue near the brigde in Brooklyn I can find is "the barge" but no
listing for Zorn there,
Case


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: thanks
Date: 26 Jun 2000 00:36:30 EDT

thanks for everyone's responses on free jazz,
and a special thanks to bill ashline for yr informative
bit on Sade.

ben

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New SOllima Album
Date: 26 Jun 2000 01:26:02 -0400

Does anyone have any information regarding this (apparently) new Giovanni
Sollima album?  "Aquilarco" was pretty great, I wonder what to expect here.


Spasimo, Il tracciato di Marta, etc
Composer: Giovanni Sollima
Performer: Giovanni Sollima
Ensemble: Soni Ventorum Ensemble
Agora Musica (Ita) - #216 / June 27, 2000

As you see, it'll be released tomorrow (the 27th).


Likewise, is there anywhere I can find out his tour schedule?


Thanks,

Lev


--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Viguier Benoit" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fear of fiction
Date: 26 Jun 2000 10:48:58 +0200

I'm looking for informations about the music of the movie FEAR OF FICTION
written & directed by Charlie Ahearn.
Do you think i could find a record (LP, CD or tape) of this soundtrack
performed by Lee Ranaldo (guitar), Evan Lurie (organ), Steve Shelly (drums),
Tony Scherr (bass).

Thank you very much
A french guy from Paris.

P.S : i recently joined the zorn list, it's really great.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: werner =?iso-8859-1?Q?l=FCdi?= - rip
Date: 26 Jun 2000 15:52:50 +0200


i read in the paper that the swiss free jazz pioneer werner l=FCdi passed
away last week.

he's played with the likes of br=F6tzmann and released one or two cds on
hat hut.
may his soul rest in peace.

patRice


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: PROMO: Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann-Schnee
Date: 26 Jun 2000 11:41:46 EDT

sorry for the promotional intrusion, and further apologies if you receive=20
more than one copy of this:

I'm proud to announce the release of the latest CD on my label:

Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann-Schnee (Erstwhile 008)

Burkhard Stangl and Christof Kurzmann are both internationally known=20
musicians from Vienna. Stangl is best known for being a member of the semina=
l=20
improv group Polwechsel, for his superb solo record R=E9cital, and for his f=
ive=20
part, work-in-progress opera Venusmond. Kurzmann is a co-leader of Orchester=
=20
33 1/3 with Christian Fennesz, runs Charhizma Records, and appears on the=20
self-titled improv document CD on Charhizma, along with Fennesz and Werner=20
Dafeldecker, with guest appearances by Kevin Drumm, Jim O'Rourke, and Martin=
=20
Siewert.

While both musicians have been involved in the Viennese music scene since th=
e=20
late eighties, and have been friends just as long, their musical interests=20
lay in different areas until fairly recently. They never played in the same=20
band until Kurzmann sat in with Polwechsel in September of 1999 in NYC. When=
=20
they returned to Vienna, they recorded this duo record, inspired by four=20
favorite movies of theirs and by a quote from Austrian writer Robert Walser.=
=20
Schnee consists of four long soundscapes, with Kurzmann's sedate electronics=
=20
underpinning Stangl's atmospheric plucking.=20

"Schnee is not about freezing, it is about snow. Therefore anything 'liquid'=
=20
is gone, and has been transferred into a malleable body--its grainy patterns=
=20
and particles are what Kurzmann creates circular asymmetrical patterns=20
within. Stangl's guitar is brittle, dissolving like icicle drops. This=20
record's beauty is in the critical fact that it explores the differences in=20
computer generated and acoustic music, unlike a forced marriage or a=20
systematic clash. Strikingly, it finds its entry at the extremity of=20
fundamental difference between the worlds of the two instruments. It is not=20
reductionist--in that it does not lack matter to its dialogue. Simply these=20
two artists are so assured and comfortable within the language that it leads=
=20
to saying less."-Dean Roberts

Schnee is also available in a European edition, designed by the highly=20
respected Viennese graphics studio D+ and Marcus Sterz, through Charhizma=20
(www.charhizma.com). The music on the US and European editions is identical.

personnel:

Burkhard Stangl: acoustic & electric guitars, percussion
Christof Kurzmann: g3

track listing:

1. Nordrand-15:16
2. Sans Soleil-20:47
3. Passion-14:01
4. In Einem Jahr Mit 13 Monden-23:47

I love plainness in colour, monotony, snow is rather a monotonous tune. Why=20
should colour not give an impression of singing? White is like a murmur, a=20
whisper, a prayer. (Robert Walser; Translation: Uwe Sch=FCtte)

more info available at the following web sites, or contact Erstwhile Records=
=20
at [e-mail]::

http://www.erstwhilerecords.com
http://www.charhizma.com/quart/kurzmann.html
http://www.durian.at/scripts/duriart.cgi?index=3D11

all Erstwhile CDs can be purchased from numerous worldwide distributors, all=
=20
of which are listed on my web site. also, all Erstwhile releases can be=20
purchased via mail order (prices are for single CDs):=20

$13 US each postpaid within the United States=20
$14 US each postpaid to Canada=20
$16 US each postpaid overseas=20

all payments must be made in US funds. cash and money orders shipped=20
immediately. mail cash at your own risk. shipments paid for with checks held=
=20
until they clear. please send your order to:

Erstwhile Records
189 Christopher Columbus Dr.
Apt. #4
Jersey City, NJ 07302


future releases from Erstwhile will include:

007: John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs (available in mid-July=
)
009: Dean Roberts/Werner Dafeldecker
010: VHF-Densities
011: G=FCnter M=FCller/L=EA Quan Ninh
012: Otomo Yoshihide/Voice Crack
013: Axel D=F6rner/Kevin Drumm
014: Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler
015: TV Pow/Stilluppsteypa

also available now:

001-VHF-Extracts
002-Haunted House-Up In Flames
003-Earl Howard/Denman Maroney-Fire Song
004-2-Thomas Lehn/Gerry Hemingway-Tom & Gerry (double CD)
005-Keith Rowe/G=FCnter M=FCller/Taku Sugimoto-The World Turned Upside Down
006-Kevin Drumm/Martin T=E9treault-Particles and Smears

thanks for reading.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: new mingus bio
Date: 26 Jun 2000 10:49:37 CDT

For those with interest, here is an advert/narrative penned by Gene Santoro
for his new book on Charles (Charlie? Unc Chaz?) Mingus:

http://go.borders.com/features/ib0600santoro.xcv

Has anyone checked this book out?  I've enjoyed Santoro's jazz journalism in
years past, including one of the journalistic bread crumbs dropped by Zorn,
"Quick-Change Artist Makes Good" from downbeat almost ten years ago.

cheers,

----s
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Siddhartha
Date: 26 Jun 2000 13:00:50 -0700


On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:36:47 -0400  "&c." wrote:
>
> The enlightenment Siddhartha found was his personal happiness.  He tried to
> impart his happiness on his son and the son rejected it.  The son has to
> find his own happiness and fulfillment.  This interpretation might just be
> my youth screaming out for freedom, or not.

He has lost touch with everybody (his son, his girlfriend), and for what in
exchange? Some cheap exaltation (where the invisible is more important than
what is around him, what he can touch). It appears to me as the ultimate sign
of total failure in life. But I seem to be the only one to perceive the novel
this way (and never tried to verify what was Hesse's intent with it). You are
likely to be right...

    Patrice.

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From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz Poetry
Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:26:41 -0400

I recently purchased Dragon NaturallySpeaking, a voice recognition dictation
program.  I'm having a ball talking to my computer.  I was listening to a
Gerry Mulligan CD while dictating and the microphone started to pick up one
of his solos.  The baritone sax is close to my voice in range.  I got the
idea to play my bari into the microphone.  I just a little messing around
playing different patterns and trying out all registers.  I got a very
interesting output.  The program uses context of phrases to make its word
selection, so the output was in phrases.  There is coherence among some of
the phrases.  Words and phrases repeat themselves.  It makes for interesting
reading aloud. Has anyone else tried anything like this?

Zach
If anyone wants to see this, email me.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: FennO'Berg question
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:13:51 -0400

I don't have the disc, but I'm listening at the moment to the FennO'Berg
theme on Herb Levy's (ever wonderful) antenna radio show and I've gotta
know: What is (are) the symphonic soundtrack-y sources used on this
piece???

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Zach Griffin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Top 10 list appears to be revived
Date: 26 Jun 2000 20:28:02 -0400

To the people that were talking about Zorn's Top 10 Lists on the
Tzadik:  It has been revived.
Here is the June list:

his is John's list for June (sorry for the formatting):


Top CD Purchases:

 Marc Monnet
                     Pieces Rompues
                                                  (Disques Montagne)
 Rafael Mu=F1oz
                     Vol. 1 and 2
                                                  (Harlequin)
 Chaino
                     Africa and Beyond
                                                  (Dionysis Records)
 Davka
                     Lavy's Dream
                                                  (Interworld)
 Bernan Herrmann
                     The Ghost and Mrs. Muir
                                                  (Var=E8se Saraband)
 Julio Estrada
                     Chamber Music for Strings
                                                  (Disques Montagne)
 Cuarteto Machin
                     1934-1935
                                                  (Harlequin)
 Mieczysla Horszowksi
                     Bach Recital
                                                  (Arbiter)
 Steve Lacey
                     Scratching the Seventies
                                                  (Saravah)
 Miklos Rosza
                     A Musical Autobiography Vol. 1 and 2
                                                  (Soundstage)






Recent Books:

 Poems of Fernando Pessoa
                                               Fernando Pessoa (City
Lights)
 Always Astonished
                                               Fernando Pessoa (City
Lights)
 Pessoa and 10 Selected Poems
                                               Fernando Pessoa (Grove
Press)
 Gaudi
                                               Rainer Zerbst (Taschen)
 12 Centuries of Japanese Art from the Imperial
 Collection
                                               Freer-Sackton
(Smithsonian)
 The Temptation to Exist
                                               E.M. Cioran (Chicago
University Press)
 Tears and Saints
                                               E.M. Cioran (Chicago
University Press)
 History and Utopia
                                               E.M. Cioran (Chicago
University Press)
 Vodou
                                               Phyllis Galembo (10 Speed
Press)
 Mirror Images
                                               Chadwick (MIT Press)


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Ladew <[e-mail]>
Subject: Morricone anniversary cd, zorn reccommends...
Date: 26 Jun 2000 22:59:54 -0400

Everyone will be happy to know Tzadik.com has brought back the top 10
lists as well as updated info about the new re-issue of the Big
Gundown.  It goes a little something like this:

Boasting an incredible all-star lineup of musical masters, The Big
Gundown is THE landmark album that first introduced Zorn=92s wild musical
universe to a larger audience, influencing a whole new generation of
creative musicians. Newly remastered, this 15th anniversary edition,
includes six remarkable bonus tracks recorded especially for this
definitive edition now available exclusively from Tzadik.  Accompanying
this classic pairing of Morricone=92s brilliant originals and Zorn=92s
exciting arrangements is a fabulous 32 page full color booklet filled
with informative notes, movie stills, posters and more.

--
Rich Ladew: [e-mail]
www.home.earthlink.net/~ladewtangclan
PCP House Of Coffee: The best in modern, experimental and creative music

WUNH 91.3fm  Monday evenings 8-9 p.m.(EST)
Real Audio at www.wunh.unh.edu



-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Morricone anniversary cd, zorn reccommends...
Date: 26 Jun 2000 21:32:38 -0700

>>>Accompanying this classic pairing of Morricone=92s brilliant originals=
 and
Zorn=92s
exciting arrangements is a fabulous 32 page full color booklet filled
with informative notes, movie stills, posters and more.<<<

It even has some of those nifty moisten-with-water tattoos.




-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz Poetry
Date: 27 Jun 2000 01:38:10 -0400

The registers that are close to my voice picked up really well.  The high
not at all, the low a little better.  I had to keep the dynamics low so that
it would pick it up.  Well here's the pure output.

The first block is my alto and the second my bari:

At to your the took the who who and and who who who who the pain and have to
do to be due to the do at to it will who the who who her who for more or of
the who of the food it that the due to the who who boom rule the the it who
the in the Peru who the room and who in the who do it who in and who move
into Louis drew who will Peru Peru who them and and the Aurora are or at the
who grew who Peru to it true the them who in wound and in the root in who is
it who can and who you that can to and haven't abandoned who him to wound
who man in contempt into the wound do it who it home and didn't in a him can
in the who and contingent to contingent Peru in who Hamton listen wound to
in the who didn't of e in the net to do to them in content at the to at the
the them to the end the don't have who have been the

Them to the to to can can do it in who to that in and the do it didn't in
the couldn't do at the been the and and and at the twin and and in the and
at the a hat it it in an a him to have a the end aluminum and it is that in
and and and in England and haven't abandoned and contingent and contingent
boom do him in the him in the end and and and in and and and been an End and
and Been an end to end and in an been to do to them him to it is that can do
it that in the a abandoned the contingent and and then it had been end the
if an end to the to cancel the cancel the and


 Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christina Carter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz underground
Date: 27 Jun 2000 01:12:11 CDT

Wondering what the Amy Sheffer performance was like. Really care for her lps
that I have heard. What is she currently involved in?

The Jazzactuel box is an amazing document. I think its strengths are in the
selection (esp. including the Jeanne Lee/Archie Shepp composition "blase")
and sequencing of course, but also the combination of the liner notes (was
glad they weren't simply fact or fact education based) with having all of
that music together for a cumulative effect.

The liner notes really bring out the emotional liberating power of the
music, and hopefully will inspire people to seek out this music and have an
emotional (political?) involvement with it.


take care
Christina


>From: "Matt Krefting" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: free jazz underground

(amy sheffer at tonic tonight, is
>anyone
>going?)
>
>by the way, what did folks think of the "jazzactuel" box set? (this may
>have
>already been discussed but i was most likely asleep). i picked it up a
>coupla' weeks ago and dig it much, was wondering what other people's
>opinions were/are. take it easy...
>
>matt
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz poetry
Date: 26 Jun 2000 23:47:18 -0700 (PDT)

>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:38:10 -0400
>From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Jazz Poetry
>
>The registers that are close to my voice picked up
>really well.  The high
>not at all, the low a little better.  I had to keep
>the dynamics low so that
>it would pick it up.  Well here's the pure output.
>
>The first block is my alto and the second my bari:

Hi,

What a brilliant idea!  I once goofed around with a
similar program when it hadn't been "adjusted" to my
voice yet and the surreal phrases it spit out as I
spoke endlessly amused me.  I really just thought that
was the funniest thing I'd ever seen.  I took it into
chat room and I think people thought I was having a
stroke or something.  For whatever reason, never
thought to play an instrument into it, as obvious as
that seems now.  Very interesting.  Ducks do do do
dada do english muffin we we long long.

---Ryan N.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Rob Allaert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: sound @ tzadik
Date: 27 Jun 2000 03:40:08 +0200

About www.tzadik.com: we desperately need some (a lot) soundbites to really
get introduced to all the new music releases. Yeah ......


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: jazz actual/free jazz
Date: 27 Jun 2000 13:10:03 PDT

>The Jazzactuel box is an amazing document. I think its strengths are in the
>selection (esp. including the Jeanne Lee/Archie Shepp composition "blase")
>and sequencing of course, but also the combination of the liner notes (was
>glad they weren't simply fact or > fact education based) with having all of
>that music together for a cumulative effect.

>The Jazzactuel box is an amazing document. I think its strengths are
>in the selection (esp. including the Jeanne Lee/Archie Shepp composition
>"blase") and sequencing of course, but also the combination of the liner
>notes (was glad they weren't simply fact or > fact education based) with
>having all of that music together for a cumulative effect.

Yes, I liked this too, but wasn't wild about all the sequencing choices,
especially the really noisy Sonny and Linda Sharrock thing coming after the
relatively quiet Daevid Allen/Robert Wyatt song, kind of a mood-killer
there.  There are a copule of other moments like that, not sure if it was
done on purpose (I'm guessing) or just a result of them doing the best they
could (which I doubt). But overall it's well worth it, especially for the
relatively low price.

Also, what is the Cecil Taylor "Indent Vol. 2" mentioned on that list. I
have the Indent solo piano CD and haven't heard of a vol. 2...

WY
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Top 10 list appears to be revived
Date: 27 Jun 2000 14:35:29 -0700 (PDT)

>To the people that were talking about Zorn's Top 10 Lists on the
>Tzadik:  It has been revived.

    Not exactly revived...those are the archives
    of the old lists, and the one you posted was
    for June 1998.

    We'll see if more current ones can be had.

    mike
    p.s. when referring to web content it is
    much better to note the URL rather than
    copying an entire web page.


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jazz actual/free jazz
Date: 27 Jun 2000 17:58:41 -0400

William York wrote:

> Also, what is the Cecil Taylor "Indent Vol. 2" mentioned on that list. I
> have the Indent solo piano CD and haven't heard of a vol. 2...

I'm dredging this up from ancient memories, so I may be off, but
originally (around 1974) there were two issues on Cecil's Unit Core
label, 'Indent' and 'Spring of Two Blue J's'. My recollection is that
the inner sleeve on 'Indent' (my copy of which was spirited off by a
supposed friend) indicated a third release was in the works. I _think_
it was a large ensemble work, possibly a student orchestra, but I'm
wondering if it may have been titled, 'Indent, Vol. 2'. Just a guess.

Brian Olewnick

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: sound @ tzadik
Date: 27 Jun 2000 16:44:01 -0600


>About www.tzadik.com: we desperately need some (a lot) soundbites to
>really get introduced to all the new music releases. Yeah ......

I would second this.  As much legal difficulties as MP3s have caused I still
find sound bites really usefull. Being in Colorado I use the internet a good
deal for CD shopping and music info.  I think that for a - comparatively -
small label like Tzadik sound bites can help tremendously.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:    [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: June Sale Items (non-zorn)
Date: 27 Jun 2000 18:52:02 -0400

I have the following items for sale that
some on this list may be interested in.

All prices _US $_.  POSTAGE PAID within North America.
Shipping on orders outside NA can be arranged.

If you don't like a price, make me an OFFER.

$30 -- Christoph Heemann - "Invisible Barrier" US CD (Extreme: xcd019) =
1993
       [Excellent Heemann release on Extreme.  His first major solo out=
ing
       (after the Robot 10") recorded in 1992.  Long out of print.]
$12 -- Ground Zero - "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera ver. 1.50" US 7"
       (Gentle Giant) 1996  [Rec. in Tokyo, March 1995 with the same
       lineup as the Trigram disc plus Tanaka Yumiko (gidayu-shamisen,
       voice).  Flip is Otomo, Eye, Hideki, Junji & Masahiro live @
       20,000V, Tokyo, 3/1/92.  Limited (925/1000).  Out of print.]
$10 -- Ground Zero/B=E4stard - "Live Mao '99/Pinball Tenacity" FR 7"
       (Pandemonium) 1996  [3rd installment in the "Erase Yer Head" ser=
ies.
       GZ cut is from Shibuya, Tokyo, 8/95.  Same lineup as the other 7=
"
       plus Heiner Goebbels (live, not sampled, piano).  B=E4stard are =
a
       French 5-piece (gtr/dms/bass/tapes/tt etc.).  Gatefold sleeve w/
       full color artwork & inserts.  Out of print.]
$20 -- Hanatarash - "4: Aids-A-Delic" US CD (Public Bath: pbcd3) 1992
       [33 tracks, 70 min. of cut-up/noise/vocal insanity from Eye & Co=
.
       First pressing with multicolor "ocean/sea" collage artwork.]
$35 -- Ice - "Under The Skin" US CD (Pathological: path11cd) 1993
       [K. Martin (vocals, samples, tenor sax), J. Broadrick (guitar,
       programming), A. Buess (tenor sax), Dave Cochrane (bass), and
       J. Jobbagy (drums).  Stark electronics, fractured dub, bleak
       funk, blunted out-hop.  Essential.  Mint.  Long out of print.]
$ 8 -- Masonna - "Masonanie Viva Los Angeles" US 7" (P-Tapes) 1993
       [Green vinyl.  Limited & numbered (804/1005) w/ insert.
       2 of Maso's first US live performances from 11/23-24/93.]

more at:
[ http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/muse.html ]

Thanks for looking.


-Patrick
[e-mail]






-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Jazz Poetry
Date: 27 Jun 2000 16:53:40 -0600


>The registers that are close to my voice picked up really well.  The
>high not at all, the low a little better.  I had to keep the dynamics low
>so that it would pick it up.  Well here's the pure output.

It's interesting to me that it came up with so many and's and double "oo"
sounds.  to, do etc.  But I wonder how it turned saxophone playing into
words like "england."  I wonder if it is more attentive to pitch, duration,
timber, or what.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trozo <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn in Spain?
Date: 28 Jun 2000 05:59:25 +0200

Hi

  I just joined this list. I=B4m from Madrid (Spain). I=B4ve been into =
music all my life only recently discovering the great J.Zorn. I'm into =
playing myself, but not even close to that level :) =

  I recently saw a concert in Madrid that Zorn was supposed to have played,=
 only he didn't come because of the death of his mother, the other =
musicians were great and played some Zorn's compositions for piano, =
violonchelo and violin. I loved the concert.

  Anybody know if he has plans for another tour in Europe that would bring =
him to Spain? Also, I really like Naked City's first album (The only one =
that I've heard yet). Does J.Zorn still play similar stuff? I'd really =
love to see him live playing that kind of stuff...

  Thanks!,

-Jorge

--
/----*----+-| [e-mail] |------------------------\
| ******* |                           =A1=A1ESPABILA CHAVAL!!|             =
          =
|   ***   |                      http://www.makasoft.net |
\--*---*--+----------------------------------------------/


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sound @ tzadik
Date: 27 Jun 2000 23:52:36 -0700 (PDT)


    I don't mean to be a dick about this,
    but I asked that these comments be
    sent to me PRIVATELY and not to the
    list. thanks.

    mike

>I would second this.  As much legal difficulties as MP3s have caused I still
>find sound bites really usefull.

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Berman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jazz actual/free jazz
Date: 28 Jun 2000 10:08:00 +0200 (MET DST)

>>>>> "Brian" == Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]> writes:

    Brian> William York wrote:
    >> Also, what is the Cecil Taylor "Indent Vol. 2" mentioned on
    >> that list. I have the Indent solo piano CD and haven't heard of
    >> a vol. 2...

    Brian> I'm dredging this up from ancient memories, so I may be
    Brian> off, but originally (around 1974) there were two issues on
    Brian> Cecil's Unit Core label, 'Indent' and 'Spring of Two Blue
    Brian> J's'. My recollection is that the inner sleeve on 'Indent'
    Brian> (my copy of which was spirited off by a supposed friend)
    Brian> indicated a third release was in the works. I _think_ it
    Brian> was a large ensemble work, possibly a student orchestra,
    Brian> but I'm wondering if it may have been titled, 'Indent, Vol.
    Brian> 2'. Just a guess.

Perhaps "Indent Vol. 2" refers to the parts of "Indent" that
originally appeared together with "Lono" on the Japanese Trio label.
This record was reissued on CD by Konnex together with the last part
of "Akisakila" -- on the CD it says Vol. 2 if memory serves (Vol. 1
being the first part of "Akisakila"). According to Richard Shapiro's
pretty exhaustive Cecil Taylor sessionography
<www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mtaylors.html>, these are the only
recordings bearing the title "Indent". (Note Shapiro has the Unit Core
release of "Indent" with the album title "Mysteries".)

--Steve Berman


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: sound @ tzadik
Date: 28 Jun 2000 15:22:21 +0200

> About www.tzadik.com: we desperately need some (a lot) soundbites
> to really
> get introduced to all the new music releases. Yeah ......

Tzadik was supposed to introduce Liquid Audio (Kazunori Sugiyama told me
that), it allows you to donwload full track with CD quality for 50 cents or
so. You can then burn it to a CDR yourself, it will be legal. So, you will
get full-quality "sample" of the album, if you will like it, you can even
download the whole CD. But if you use dial-up connection to internet, the
charge for this download will cover the price of few normal albums...

Liquid Audio is supposed to be a kind of response to MP3. Because of low
transmission rates, it's not an alternative for most people.

    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] www.emd.pl


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: sound @ tzadik
Date: 28 Jun 2000 15:21:12 +0200

> About www.tzadik.com: we desperately need some (a lot) soundbites
> to really
> get introduced to all the new music releases. Yeah ......

Tzadik was supposed to introduce Liquid Audio (Kazunori Sugiyama told me
that), it allows you to donwload full track with CD quality for 50 cents or
so. You can then burn it to a CDR yourself, it will be legal. So, you will
get full-quality "sample" of the album, if you will like it, you can even
download the whole CD. But if you use dial-up connection to internet, the
charge for this download will cover the price of few normal albums...

Liquid Audio is supposed to be a kind of response to MP3. Because of low
transmission rates, it's not an alternative for most people.

    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] www.emd.pl


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Litchfield Jazz Fest
Date: 28 Jun 2000 12:19:28 -0400

I recently got a pamphlet for the Litchfield Jazz Festival in Connecticut.
I noticed that the Dave Douglas Quartet was on the bill.  I'm not familiar
with many of the performers, with the exception of Ray Charles, Joshua
Redman, and Paquito D'Rivera .  Are there any other good acts playing?

Zach

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: New P. Glass Album
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:24:22 -0400

Picked up a new album of Glass works the other day -- am really enjoying it.

Contents:
Symphony #3 (for strings)  --  a great piece, which I heard live in New York
several years ago.  The third movement is gorgeous.  It seems that Glass has
gone from developing triads to working with chromatic scales. Interesting
dissonances.

Interludes #1 and 2 from "The Civil WarS" -- very nice.

Mechanical Ballet from the Voyage

and a truly magnificent work "The Light", a 20+ minute fantasy in F-major.
Very inspired.


All played very well by the Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra and the Vienna Radio
Symphony, conducted by Dennis Russell Davies.

Check it out.

-Ljova

--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:27:38 -0400

Hi.

I realized yesterday that I spend a lot of time listening to music on
mp3.com. Some of it is great, some of it not. But it is new music that comes
for free, and I can listen to it as much as I want.  In the stores, all that
comes free is the listening stations, and they seldom have any good music
on, mostly just stuff that they're paid to promote.

So this got me thinking -- what if the labels/retailers agreed to this:

You may sample all tracks on an album via an online portal for $5.99 ... if
you decide that you like 'em, you can order the CD (or download Liquid
Audio) for a discounted price of roughly another $5.99.

Would this be cool with most of you? What would be the un-merits of such a
scheme?  Why wouldn't the labels agree?


Thanks,

Ljova



--------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:54:45 EDT

In a message dated 00-06-28 16:31:21 EDT, you write:
>So this got me thinking -- what if the labels/retailers agreed to this:
>You may sample all tracks on an album via an online portal for $5.99 ... if
>you decide that you like 'em, you can order the CD (or download Liquid
>Audio) for a discounted price of roughly another $5.99.

I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album a no-cost
activity, such as what existed up until 40 or 50 years ago in record stores
via listening booths. Then, charge whatever you want to charge to download
it, but certainly make it less expensive than buying a CD, since in that case
you are also paying for materials, manufaturing, distribution and some
version of retail storage space. But if someone wants to charge me to sample,
I'll be sampling far fewer items, and thus buying far fewer items.

Dave Royko

-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jim McLoughlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 17:19:36 -0400

> I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album
> a no-cost
> activity, such as what existed up until 40 or 50 years ago in
> record stores
> via listening booths.

This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
decent, nothing too obscure though.

Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

J


-



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:27:29 -0400

On Wed, Jun 28, 2000 at 05:19:36PM -0400, Jim McLoughlin wrote:
> > I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album
> > a no-cost
> > activity, such as what existed up until 40 or 50 years ago in
> > record stores
> > via listening booths.
>
> This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
> Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
> a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
> listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
> decent, nothing too obscure though.
>
> Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

I believe they do this at Now Music and Fashion in Clarendon, perhaps
the last avant-friendly locally-owned CD shop in the DC area.

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


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From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 15:27:11 -0600

>This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
>Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly
>open a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and
>let
>you listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.
>
>Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

There's a store called Bart's CD cellar in Boulder, Colorado that does this
with CDs.  They also have a ton of vinal.

Just thought I'd interject in case anyone is ever in Boulder.

Matt Wirzbicki

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 17:28:18 EDT

In a message dated 6/28/00 5:18:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
 Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
 a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
 listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
 decent, nothing too obscure though.

 Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

  >>

I'm in Cleveland, and at the CD Warehouse chain (I don't know how much
territory they cover) you can listen to any/all used CD's they have in stock
at your leisure. They usually have around 3 or 4 players available per store.

Dale.

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From: rimas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 14:34:07 -0700

Hear Music in Berkeley also lets you listen to CDs prior to purchase.
unfortunately their prices are a little high compared to
Amoeba/Rasputin's and they don't have as large a collection of
avant-garde/experimental/tzadik/etc type stuff.  Both those stores stock
a nice collection of the aformentioned genres..

also back when i lived in LA (5+ years ago) there was a Blockbuster
Music near my house that would let you preview any CD.  I know the
particular store that was near my old house shut down, not sure if the
chain still exists (i bet it does) or if the listen before you buy
policy does (probably not).

-rimas

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/28/00 5:18:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
>  Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
>  a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
>  listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
>  decent, nothing too obscure though.
>
>  Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?
>
>   >>
>
> I'm in Cleveland, and at the CD Warehouse chain (I don't know how much
> territory they cover) you can listen to any/all used CD's they have in stock
> at your leisure. They usually have around 3 or 4 players available per store.
>
> Dale.
>
> -

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From: Douglas Tapia <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 15:45:53 -0600

>Subject:     RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
>Sent:        6/25/20 3:33 PM
>Received:    6/28/00 3:29 PM
>From:        Jim McLoughlin, [e-mail]
>To:          [e-mail]
>
>> I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album
>> a no-cost activity,

>Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?
>
Hmm.  Now I know we're all backwards in Colorado, and not nearly as
trendy as everyone on the coasts, but all of my favorite shops have
always done this.  Twist & Shout, Wax Trax, and many of the chains will
do this.  Jerry's Record exchange on Capitol Hill even lets their
customers fondle the liner notes, and they'll put discs on the store
stereo for customers, if they're not to busy.  (This is fun, considering
that Jerry's is the premier source for "art music" in the area.

FWIW,

Doug

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From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Midwest/NE concerts
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:59:59 -0500 (CDT)

I hope no one will object to this modest promotional interruption, but I
just wanted to pass on some words regarding some upcoming shows that may
be of interest to some denizens of this list.  My group, the Blue Noise
Band, is going to be venturing into the midwest and northeast this July,
with shows in Chicago, Cleveland, DC, Baltimore, NYC, and Boston.  Based
in Austin TX, we are, for lack of a better description, a groove-heavy,
frequently abstract, aspirationally downtown-y jazz thing which I suspect
may interest some zorn-listers.  I would point potentially interested
parties towards the soon to be revamped www.bluenoiseband.com for the
exact dates as well as audio and plenty of total nonsense.  Please feel
free to shout at me for more information (or for no reason at all).

cheers,
 Tom


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From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Litchfield Jazz Fest
Date: 28 Jun 2000 16:47:12 -0700 (PDT)

  Are there any other
> good acts playing?
>
> Zach
>
> -
>
I was supposed to be doing advertising in their
program. I can only remeber Joshua Redman.

I live 20 minutes from Litchfield

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

-



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From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Midwest/NE concerts
Date: 28 Jun 2000 19:13:09 -0500

I'll shout not at Tom but for him:  if the band plays near you, you should
make the effort to go see them, especially if you find a grooving
intersection of Masada and Sex Mob potentially appealing.  Dabs of Naked
City, too.  I hear those influences and more in Tom's group's CD
"Multi-Purpose," a fine, fine thing about which I've been meaning to write
for the Z-list for ages... and may still, when life allows a little bit of
breathing room.

See you in NYC, Tom.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Tortoise, TNT (Thrill Jockey)

Tom Benton wrote:

> I hope no one will object to this modest promotional interruption, but I
> just wanted to pass on some words regarding some upcoming shows that may
> be of interest to some denizens of this list.  My group, the Blue Noise
> Band, is going to be venturing into the midwest and northeast this July,
> with shows in Chicago, Cleveland, DC, Baltimore, NYC, and Boston.  Based
> in Austin TX, we are, for lack of a better description, a groove-heavy,
> frequently abstract, aspirationally downtown-y jazz thing which I suspect
> may interest some zorn-listers.  I would point potentially interested
> parties towards the soon to be revamped www.bluenoiseband.com for the
> exact dates as well as audio and plenty of total nonsense.  Please feel
> free to shout at me for more information (or for no reason at all).
>
> cheers,
>  Tom
>
> -


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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 20:31:37 -0400

Speaking of listening in stores, I got my indoctrination in
avant-whatever music in this way. I would hang out for hours at
Lunch For Yor Ears, where Manny would play anything anyone wanted
to hear. I got quite an education from not only what stuck my
curiosity and what he'd suggest, but from being there when people
liek Elliott Sharp and Fred Frith came in and finding out what they
were listening to.

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 22:42:50 EDT

In a message dated 6/28/00 5:18:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
 Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
 a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
 listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
 decent, nothing too obscure though.

 Anyone know of other stores that still do this ? >>

I'll have to chip in the Manifest chain of stores in South/North Carolina.
Their listening stations in Columbia feature a hundred or so new CDs you can
hear in their entirety, and other listening stations that give you 30-second
bits of each song among hundreds of other CDs.  You can also listen to any
used CD as long as you want- that is, unless there is a line of people
waiting to sample stuff.  Unfortunately, due to people being a bit "rough"
with their players, the store is down to one useable CD player...which is why
I usually keep a portable player in the car to bring into the store as needed.

--
=dg=

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 22:42:52 EDT

In a message dated 6/28/00 4:31:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< So this got me thinking -- what if the labels/retailers agreed to this:

 You may sample all tracks on an album via an online portal for $5.99 ... if
 you decide that you like 'em, you can order the CD (or download Liquid
 Audio) for a discounted price of roughly another $5.99.

 Would this be cool with most of you? What would be the un-merits of such a
 scheme?  Why wouldn't the labels agree?
  >>

I'd think that the retailers would do this in a skinny second for their
artists that are not big sellers, but I wouldn't expect a discounted scheme
like this for a proven commodity, like The Dixie Chicks, for example.  I
doubt that the music-buying public would buy into this at all, especially
since a large majority of online users still access their ISP via telephone
lines and 28.8k modems.

I sure wouldn't *pay* for a MP3/Liquid Audio file, either.

--
=dg=

-



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From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 28 Jun 2000 23:36:14 -0400


> Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

To add to the list: Twisted Village in Cambridge, MA will let you listen to
just about any CD you want.  Maybe vinyl, too.  Seems like another good
argument for Mom and Pop stores.

-Jesse


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From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Live in Sevilla songlist
Date: 29 Jun 2000 08:07:11 -0400

CDNOW has the list of the songs from MASADA's upcoming live album LIVE IN
SEVILLA 2000.  They also have the albumcover on it.  The songlist goes like
this:

LIVE IN SEVILLA 2000 (2000)

    1/ Ne'eman
    2/ Katzatz
    3/ Hadasha
    4/ Beeroth
    5/ Yoreh
    6/ Hazor
    7/ Nashon
    8/ Lakom
    9/ Bith Aneth

I suppose track 8 "Lakom" is actually "Lakum" from HEI (5).

:-(  I was waiting for a good quality sound of MIDBAR live!!

Neil H. Enet
------------


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From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Midwest/NE concerts
Date: 29 Jun 2000 10:29:01 -0500 (CDT)

Aw shucks...thanks, Steve.  My 1st order of business in NYC: buying you a
beer.  I've had a couple of folks email me asking for actual dates, so I'm
going to go ahead and post them briefly below.

July 7th - Chicago - Morseland / July 8th - Cleveland - Happy Dog
July 10th - DC - Metro Cafe / July 12th - DC - Black Cat
July 13th - Baltimore - Cafe Tattoo / July 16 - NYC - Izzy Bar
July 17th - Boston - Green Street Grill / July 18th - NYC - Makor

Perhaps see some of you out there.  I am, as always, the guy with the big
piece of lumber.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Steve Smith wrote:

> I'll shout not at Tom but for him:  if the band plays near you, you should
> make the effort to go see them, especially if you find a grooving
> intersection of Masada and Sex Mob potentially appealing.  Dabs of Naked
> City, too.  I hear those influences and more in Tom's group's CD
> "Multi-Purpose," a fine, fine thing about which I've been meaning to write
> for the Z-list for ages... and may still, when life allows a little bit of
> breathing room.


-



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From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 29 Jun 2000 17:34:13 +0200


>> I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album
>> a no-cost
>> activity, such as what existed up until 40 or 50 years ago in
>> record stores
>> via listening booths.
>
> This still goes on at some record stores.  The "Plan 9" Record chain in
> Virginia (mainly Charlottesville) has CD stations where they will slyly open
> a CD (without breaking any of the hologram or label stickers), and let you
> listen to it.  I used to spend hours at these stations.  Their selection is
> decent, nothing too obscure though.
>
> Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

For me, living in belgium, this is rather a strange discussion/conversation
because here in belgium almost all (!!) of the cd-shops give the possibility
to listen to any cd and as long as you want (when it's too busy e.g. limited
to 5 cd's and 15
minutes per person). Ari.

BTW: a few days ago i was on a free concert with David Shea performing his
Satyricon for only 25 (!!!) people - wow...

-



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From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 29 Jun 2000 09:26:03 -0400

> > I say move back to the future, and make sampling the entire album
> > a no-cost
> > activity, such as what existed up until 40 or 50 years ago in
> > record stores
> > via listening booths.
>
>
>Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

    Cutlers in New Haven Ct. has CD listening stations throughout
their stores.
Also I've had good luck getting the staff to play stuff for me at
Brass City records(Waterbury Ct), and Secret Sounds(formerly in Black
Rock, now in new Haven, though I have yet to check out their new digs)

Rich


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dick Raaijmakers
Date: 29 Jun 2000 14:28:50 EDT

well, for those of you out there jonesing for more classic tape music/musique
concrete, I've got a recommendation.

Dick Raaijmakers, a Dutch composer, has a 3 CD box out of his complete tape
music, from 1958-1998. it's very poorly distributed here in the US, but
Anomalous has some copies now for $53. expensive, yes, but the first CD (all
I've heard so far) is incredible. very fresh-sounding, a lot of work with
crackles and static, and a general "rough" feel. I don't hear a lot of
releases that excite me these days, but this one is.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

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From: "Jeroen de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dick Raaijmakers
Date: 30 Jun 2000 08:54:36 GMT+0100

This release won an Edison (the Dutch equivalent of the Grammy) last
year, which is unique for this kind of music. Therefore I can only
support Jon's recommendation. Another, kind of similar release that
deserves a good listening is the 3cd box 'Ohm: Early Gurus Of
Electronic Music' on Elipsis Arts. Besides the widely known works of
Cage, Subotnick and Stockhausen it also contains a lot of tracks by
less famous composers. The extensive liner notes and beautiful
packacking make the box even more interesting.

Jeroen



> well, for those of you out there jonesing for more classic tape music/musique
> concrete, I've got a recommendation.
>
> Dick Raaijmakers, a Dutch composer, has a 3 CD box out of his complete tape
> music, from 1958-1998. it's very poorly distributed here in the US, but
> Anomalous has some copies now for $53. expensive, yes, but the first CD (all
> I've heard so far) is incredible. very fresh-sounding, a lot of work with
> crackles and static, and a general "rough" feel. I don't hear a lot of
> releases that excite me these days, but this one is.
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>
Jeroen de Boer
music director Open Electronic Festival
Cyberslag Foundation
Munnekeholm 10
9711JA Groningen
The Netherlands
tel: [phone]
fax: [phone]
cell: 013 (0)624814506
[e-mail]
http://www.cyberslag.com

-



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From: James Graves <[e-mail]>
Subject: UFO or Die
Date: 30 Jun 2000 09:05:25 -0400 (EDT)

Hey, does anyone know anything about the Japanese band UFO or Die? I know
it was one of Yamatsuka Eye's bands around in the early nineties, but does
anyone know if they still perform or if they released any albums? I've
been on a big Eye kick lately, and have been searching for any and all of
his Boredoms side projects. Still debating whether to spend the $80-90 on
that new Boredoms box set. Anyway, any info appreciated,

Jamie




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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 09:08:17 -0700


    I ordered a couple of records to a major Internet record store company
and I was surprised of how high the postage was ($5.37). Then I realized that
the records would be shipped separately because:

    "You will receive your order in 2 separate shipments because these
    items are shipped from different locations."

It appears that the high cost comes from the two separate shipping.

It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer for a
such a casual order?

    Patrice (lucky that he ordered only two records).


-



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From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:21:47 -0400 (EDT)

I'm not that sophisticated about Internet ordering as some of the others
here, but I know this has never happened to me when dealing with Verge in
Uxbridge, Ont. Either they have the CDs on hand or (with a back order
*discount*) ship them to you later. All shipments
come from a one place, so you're not paying extra for multiple shipments.

I always figured this was common practice. Is that so, or is Patrice's
experience more typical?

Ken Waxman

On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>     I ordered a couple of records to a major Internet record store company
> and I was surprised of how high the postage was ($5.37). Then I realized that
> the records would be shipped separately because:>
>     "You will receive your order in 2 separate shipments because these
>     items are shipped from different locations."
> It appears that the high cost comes from the two separate shipping.
> It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer for a
> such a casual order?

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: cd chains
Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:50:10 EDT

McKay's, a book/CD store in Knoxville, is really cool when it comes to
listening
to what you are thinking about buying.  You can listen to anything they have
in stock.

ben

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: masada
Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:53:03 EDT

i only have the first masada record...where should i go from here? i love
this one.
if only they weren't so goddamned expensive..

ben

PS i heard Painkiller has something new out, but it seems it might just be a
rumor. anybody know anything about this?

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: CD listening in stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 09:56:55 -0700

when i living in switzerland, CDs in the stores were unsealed and it
was standard practice to listen to your heart's content. downside: base
price for most CDs was $30.

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From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 11:14:07 -0600

Patrice,

My main ordering has been through forced exposure and anomalous records.
Usually, shipping doesn't come to more than about $6 even fro big orders.
It's the initial shipping cost that hurts.  I think sometimes it's a flat
rate and sometimes they'll charge something like $3 for the first CD and
then $.25 for each additional.  As a result I try to order in larger
shippments to keep the shipping per item down.  I've never heard of the
shipping from two separate locations except with CDnow.

Matt Wirzbicki

-



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From: "gabe wingfield" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: UFO or Die
Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:36:22 -0500

If I keep it straight, UFO or Die existed in earnest in the early 90s when
most of the band lived in NYC.  It's been a long time since I've kept up
with all things BORE.  It mainly consisted of Eye, Yoshimi, either Katsumi
(from Omnoide Hatoba) or Naoto Hayashi (Leningrad Blues Machine) on bass.
You could take my word for it, or you might check out the Eye, Ear, Nose &
Throat page, which has a fairly extensive side-project discography for the
Boredoms. It's at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/Boredoms/index.htm.

gabe


-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 13:45:10 EDT

In a message dated 6/30/00 12:11:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
    I ordered a couple of records to a major Internet record store company
 and I was surprised of how high the postage was ($5.37). Then I realized that
 the records would be shipped separately because:

    "You will receive your order in 2 separate shipments because these
    items are shipped from different locations."

 It appears that the high cost comes from the two separate shipping.

 It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer for a
 such a casual order >>

Sounds like you ordered from Amazon.  I've found this to be a regular
practice with them- that is, different warehouses under their distribution
umbrella stock entirely different products and titles.  But then again, it's
a well known practice for mailorder outfits to make a few more dollars in
profit under the guise of "postage and handling"- emhasis on the latter.

--
np: Klimax- Mira si te Gusta

=dg=

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 13:56:35 EDT

In a message dated 6/30/00 12:11:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Subj:     naive question about Internet record stores
 Date:  6/30/00 12:11:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time
 From:  [e-mail] (Patrice L. Roussel)
 Sender:    [e-mail]
 To:    [e-mail]
 CC:    [e-mail]


    I ordered a couple of records to a major Internet record store company
 and I was surprised of how high the postage was ($5.37). Then I realized that
 the records would be shipped separately because:

    "You will receive your order in 2 separate shipments because these
    items are shipped from different locations."

 It appears that the high cost comes from the two separate shipping.

 It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer for a
 such a casual order?
  >>

Well as an owner (and sole employee!!) of one of these internet businesses -
granted I only have one location - I charge a flat $4.00 for priority, or
$5.00 for priority with insurance domestically, which usually covers up to 3
standard LP's.

Dale.

Little Nighttown Music

Visit the home page by clicking here:  <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/TagYrIt/index.html">Little Nighttown Music</A>

-



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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:05:55 -0400

>It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer >for a such a casual order?

Some places do have separate shipping for separate locations.  CDnow does (though they may have changed that) so just check your shipping cart and it'll tell you.  The worst instance was when I placed an order through CDUniverse (for DVDs) and the items were listed in stock but they shipped in three batchs and charged postage each time.  I complained and got the shipping refunded since this wasn't something that had been agreed to.

LT

-



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From: myke cuthbert <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:25:33 -0400

[e-mail] wrote on Jun 30:

> Some places do have separate shipping for separate locations.  CDnow
  does (though they may have changed that) so just check your shipping
  cart and it'll tell you.  The worst instance was when I placed an
  order through CDUniverse (for DVDs) and the items were listed in
  stock but they shipped in three batchs and charged postage each
  time.  I complained and got the shipping refunded since this wasn't
  something that had been agreed to.

CDNow sometimes will charge extra after the sale is supposedly
completed, which you have no way of rejecting.  I complained
repeatedly but got no answer, and lodged a complaint with the BBB.

I haven't had a problem with Amazon doing this; when they've had to
ship from separate locations they've still charged me the agreed
price, and twice when an item with the "Ships within 24 hours"
designation was actually in the 2-3 day range, they bumped me to the
next better shipping method at no charge.  But things could've
changed.

-



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From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 12:42:17 -0400

On Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 11:14:07AM -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)  wrote:
> Patrice,
>
> My main ordering has been through forced exposure and anomalous records.
> Usually, shipping doesn't come to more than about $6 even fro big orders.
> It's the initial shipping cost that hurts.  I think sometimes it's a flat
> rate and sometimes they'll charge something like $3 for the first CD and
> then $.25 for each additional.  As a result I try to order in larger
> shippments to keep the shipping per item down.  I've never heard of the
> shipping from two separate locations except with CDnow.

In my experience with Forced Exposure (I order 4 or 5 items from them
each week), they charge a flat $4.95 no matter how much you order. It's
a bit high for small orders but pays off on larger ones (and on not
worrying about how much shipping will be).

--
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 11:55:03 -0700


Thanks a lot for the answers and advices!

    Patrice.

PS: as many have guessed, it was CDNow.

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From: Gavin Dunne <[e-mail]>
Subject: naked city
Date: 30 Jun 2000 07:39:15 -0700 (PDT)

hi
im sure you all know track 4 on the naked city
cd.....has zorn ever done a cd of just this type of
music? or can anyone reccommend someone who has?also
ive tried twice to unsubscribe to this list and it
ain.t happening can ayone help?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



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From: Ricardo Reis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:32:29 +0100 (WET DST)


> Anyone know of other stores that still do this ?

    hi! i live in Portugal and you can pre-listen to any CD you want
in almost all CD-stores. a con i have about paying for mp3 or liquid audio
is that you can't get the art covers that come with the original CDs
(quality of sound is another). one thing people do alot in here is copying
cds using CDR. this also go's (for me) in the categorie of the lack of
original artcovers so i was wondering if you feel the same: prefer to buy
less because of this...
               salut!
                              Ricardo Reis

                  "NON SERVIAM"



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From: Pierre Toussaint <[e-mail]>
Subject: yankees
Date: 30 Jun 2000 16:54:11 -0500

Anyone can tell me if the "yankees" cd with D. Bailey is any good?

Pierre



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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: yankees
Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:28:43 -0700


On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:54:11 -0500  Pierre Toussaint wrote:
>
> Anyone can tell me if the "yankees" cd with D. Bailey is any good?

It depends where you are coming from:

    - Big fan of Masada? You can skip it.
    - Big fan of "non-idiomatic" improv? You will love it.
    - Big fan of the "rock" side of Zorn? You will wonder what is the
      point.
    - Early fan of Zorn? You already have it but you forgot.

    Patrice.

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From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: I jst ordered these cds
Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:08:29 -0700 (PDT)

 SUN CITY GIRLS  Carnival Folklore Resurrection 1:
Cameo Demons and Their Manifest

 SUN CITY GIRLS  Dreamy Draw

      VA      Strings and Stings

 HOOKER/CHRISTIAN MARCLAY/LEE RANALDO, WILLIAM   Live
at the Knitting Factory 4.23.99

       FONTANELLE              CD

        ALVA    Slattery For Ungdom

      SAXOPHONE QUARTET, ROVA Morphological Echo

    SEE 508 OSTERTAG, BOB    Like A Melody, No
Bitterness (Solo Volume One)

       TENKO   Dragon Blue

      TRANS AM        You Can Always Get What You Want


      DRESSER/FRED FRITH/IKUE MORI, MARK      Later

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

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From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 18:13:29 -0400

It's been my experience that if you tend to buy "stranger" music from
internet retailers they send them in two different shipments.  I know CDNow
does this quite frequently.  I had Sex Mob and a Masada CD in the same order
and they came separately.  When I order mainstream gifts, I always get them
in one shipment. It's beyond me.  Maybe they keep stock of popular stuff at
both warehouses.  Or maybe it's just a secret scheme to stick to people of
unconventional taste.  For some reason I think the former is the most likely
scenario.

Zach

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From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Suggested New CD Price "Scheme"
Date: 30 Jun 2000 18:17:10 -0400

Does anyone know why The Wall chain of stores doesn't allow listening before
buying anymore?  I used to love to go in there and listen to a handful of
CDs, much to the annoyance of the employees.  I miss it, it was a good way
to get the feel of a CD, as opposed to the 30 sec clips on the internet.

Zach

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From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:17:54 -0700


On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:13:29 -0400  "&c." wrote:
>
> It's been my experience that if you tend to buy "stranger" music from
> internet retailers they send them in two different shipments.  I know CDNow
> does this quite frequently.  I had Sex Mob and a Masada CD in the same order
> and they came separately.  When I order mainstream gifts, I always get them
> in one shipment. It's beyond me.  Maybe they keep stock of popular stuff at
> both warehouses.  Or maybe it's just a secret scheme to stick to people of
> unconventional taste.  For some reason I think the former is the most likely
> scenario.

Pure speculation but couldn't it come from the fact that they don't have
the records in stock at all and rely of other distributors (who will ship
them under CDNow name)?

    Patrice.

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From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 15:28:09 -0700 (PDT)


On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, &c. wrote:

> It's been my experience that if you tend to buy "stranger" music from
> internet retailers they send them in two different shipments.  I know CDNow
> does this quite frequently...

fyi, all of the major internet stores
and brick/mortar chains use the same
distribution services. the largest of
these operations is valley media
www.valley-media.com.
if valley doesn't have what you ordered,
then cdnow will likely go with another
distributor. hence the reason why your
order is broken up.

the shipping is incidental. it's common to
apply a basic shipping rate based on
a variety of factors.

this is pretty much the same system that
applies to major booksellers today.
in the end, it no longer matters
what price you pay as it's practically the
same no matter where you go. rather,
it's the services (or lack thereof) you receive
from one retailer over another you
are buying nowadays.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: naked city
Date: 30 Jun 2000 18:04:34 EDT

In a message dated 6/30/00 4:23:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< im sure you all know track 4 on the naked city
 cd.....has zorn ever done a cd of just this type of
 music? or can anyone reccommend someone who has?also
 ive tried twice to unsubscribe to this list and it
 ain.t happening  >>

Does this combination of questions strike anyone besides me as hilarious?

Dale.




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From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 20:02:56 -0400


MEEP! [e-mail] wrote:
>I've never heard of the shipping from two separate
>locations except with CDnow.
I think that's mainly where Patrice's original comment about having ordered
from a "major Internet record store company" comes into play. Obviously
places like Anomalous, Forced Exposure, and the like -- most of which are
tied to specific stores and/or peoples' basements -- are going to be
shipping from a single location because of the size or scope of the
business; CDnow is... well, I guess its warehousing concerns are just a
little bit bigger than anything that Eric is ever going to have to worry
about in that respect.
  Cheap space where space is available = low overhead, right?

-me



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From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I jst ordered these cds
Date: 30 Jun 2000 20:31:06 -0400

>         ALVA    Slattery For Ungdom

Here's a review I did for Ink19 magazine on this album:
http://www.ink19.com/issues_F/00_02/wet_ink/music_ab/051_alva.shtml

Cheers,
Nirav
--
OnNow- Coil- The Angelic Conversation (a new birthday present!)
"Of nought. To the source. To the teacher. To the temple. To him I brought.
This emptied heart. These emptied hands. This mind ignoring. This body
homeless. To love him my little reviled. My little rejected to have him. My
little to learn him forgot. Abandoned my little to find him." - Samuel Beckett,
Watt




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From: Jeffrey Zima <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city
Date: 30 Jun 2000 17:59:38 -0700

i gotta say it reminds me of the peanuts..................

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 6/30/00 4:23:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << im sure you all know track 4 on the naked city
>  cd.....has zorn ever done a cd of just this type of
>  music? or can anyone reccommend someone who has?also
>  ive tried twice to unsubscribe to this list and it
>  ain.t happening  >>
>
> Does this combination of questions strike anyone besides me as hilarious?
>
> Dale.
>
> -


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From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:05:51 -0600




>>I've never heard of the shipping from two separate
>>locations except with CDnow.

>I think that's mainly where Patrice's original comment about having
>ordered
>from a "major Internet record store company" comes into play. Obviously
>places like Anomalous, Forced Exposure, and the like -- most of which
>are tied to specific stores and/or peoples' basements -- are going to be
>shipping from a single location because of the size or scope of the
>business;

Obviously, but CDnow isn't the only "major internet record store" is it?
I've ordered from a place called everycd and they didn't ship in two orders
unless you placed them on different dates.

Matt Wirzbicki

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From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: masada
Date: 01 Jul 2000 00:40:39 EDT

i'll have 7,8 and 10 (still wrapped) up on ebay this coming week. same with
masada live in jerusalem.

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From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: naive question about Internet record stores
Date: 30 Jun 2000 22:00:49 -0700

I'd like to set the record straight regarding Amazon:  They have several
distribution centers and depending on what you order, it might come in more
than one shipment.  This DOES NOT cost the buyer extra P/H fees.  The
shipping price for CDs is $1.99 plus $0.99 per item, so Patrice's two CDs
would have shipped for $3.97.  This doesn't seem out of line to me,
considering the costs involved.  It's very labor-intensive (read expensive)
to pick and pack tiny (one and two CD) orders.  Anyway, Amazon's prices
generally beat a deep-stock brick-and-mortar store like Tower by at least $3
on a full-price CD, so even with shipping added, Amazon sells CDs at
competetive prices.  So, I'm wondering what's up with Dgasque's sarcasm?

Oh, and I guess I should disclose:  I've been working at Amazon for about a
month now.  I couldn't be more thrilled about it!  They treat their people
better than anywhere I've worked for years.  In short, it's a fabulous place
to work.  That's why I'm sticking up for them.  Definitely buy your CDs at a
local dealer if there's one that merits your business.  Failing that though,
consider buying them from Amazon.

- Dave

Patrice:
>>  It appears that the high cost comes from the two separate shipping.
>>  It is regular practice to put the shipment burden on the customer for a
>>  such a casual order
Dgasque:
> Sounds like you ordered from Amazon.  I've found this to be a regular
> practice with them- that is, different warehouses under their
> distribution
> umbrella stock entirely different products and titles.  But then
> again, it's
> a well known practice for mailorder outfits to make a few more dollars in
> profit under the guise of "postage and handling"- emhasis on the latter.


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