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2002-05-05
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #897
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, May 6 2002 Volume 03 : Number 897
In this issue:
-
Re: Fred Frith + Aki Takase
Re: Pop Song
Re: Pop Song
RE: Pop Song
Re: Pop Song
pop song
Re: Pop Song
Re: Pop Song
Intellectual satanism
Re: Intellectual satanism
Aki Takase Blues Project, + Frith
satanism
RE: Pop Song
Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta
Nicholas Collins
Re: CD'S FOR SALE
Fwd: satanism
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 22:57:10 +0200
From: Tim Blechmann <TimBlechmann@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Fred Frith + Aki Takase
AG> Anybody heard of the Aki Takase Blues Project? Frith is touring with them in
AG> Europe this summer, and I'm wondering if I should go.
i only listened to the cd (st. louis blues ) ones, but for me it
sounded more like a takase / mahall project.
but if you get the chance, try to visit one of their concerts. not
because of frith, but because of rudi mahall. he is one of the most
interesting german musicians right now...
Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.net
ICQ: 96771783
http://nyds-exp-discogs.covers.de/
- --
The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live,
mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time,
the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn,
burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across
the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and
everybody goes "Awww!"
Jack Kerouac
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:47:36 -0400
From: "Dave Smey" <dsmey@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Pop Song
> Have there been any writings seeking to find what makes a pop song
> successful?
One problem with your question is the word "successful." Do you mean
commercially successful or artistically successful? I'm sure everybody on
this list would agree that many "hits" aren't really good (e.g., "La Vida
Loca") either from a technical musical standpoint (because the chords,
rhythms, etc. aren't interesting) or an aesthetic standpoint (because we
really don't like them and wish they weren't so popular). (A lot of people
would argue that what *really* makes songs commercially successful these
days is marketing/fashion/image and even corrupt corporate practices like
payola (paying to have songs played.))
> Looking into chords, rhythms, lyrical themes, etc.
One study you might like (at least from the standpoint of harmony) is Walter
Everett's _The Beatles as Musicians_. It's in two volumes.
> It
> seems that pop songs from yesteryear share similarities with modern day
> pop songs. That could just be my own flawed observation.
There are songs being written that seem similar to old songs (I assume you
mean like tin pan alley, 1940s & 50s), and some are interesting
harmonically, etc. (Like, for instance, Elliot Smith really pleases my
harmonic & melodic senses.) But you have to ask yourself if you are
focusing on these songs because you have old-fashioned taste, or what.
Or you can get away with it by defining "pop song" more strictly that a
normal person would. You could say that Kid Rock, "Cowboy" (or whatever
that song is called) isn't a pop song at all, it's something else, and
ignore everything like that. In my opinion, doing so is a fancy way of
having old-fashioned taste. Not that there's anything wrong with that, you
just have to be honest about how you are defining your terms.
That's my (warped) perspective. Hopefully others can point out more pop
song analysis works that you might like.
Have fun,
Dave Smey
Thanks.
>
> Zach
>
>
>
> -
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 16:16:55 -0700
From: skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pop Song
on 5/5/02 3:47 PM, Dave Smey at dsmey@mindspring.com wrote:
> One problem with your question is the word "successful." Do you mean
> commercially successful or artistically successful? I'm sure everybody on
> this list would agree that many "hits" aren't really good (e.g., "La Vida
> Loca") either from a technical musical standpoint (because the chords,
> rhythms, etc. aren't interesting) or an aesthetic standpoint (because we
> really don't like them and wish they weren't so popular).
Actually, I thought "La Vida Loca" was interesting from just about every
standpoitn except the lyrics. Nice horn arrangement, good use of texture
(not the usual processed soup but some nice timbal and horn section stuff),
decent polyrhythmic inferrence, and a nice groove. Definitely an
improvement over a lot of other Top 40 solo singers (Celine, Shania etc).
> (A lot of people
> would argue that what *really* makes songs commercially successful these
> days is marketing/fashion/image and even corrupt corporate practices like
> payola (paying to have songs played.))
This, too, would explain much.
> But you have to ask yourself if you are
> focusing on these songs because you have old-fashioned taste, or what.
> Or you can get away with it by defining "pop song" more strictly that a
> normal person would. You could say that Kid Rock, "Cowboy" (or whatever
> that song is called) isn't a pop song at all, it's something else, and
> ignore everything like that. In my opinion, doing so is a fancy way of
> having old-fashioned taste. Not that there's anything wrong with that, you
> just have to be honest about how you are defining your terms.
I don't understand what makes conventional song structure -- or a taste for
it -- old fashioned. It's like saying subways are old-fashioned. They're
certainly still a viable form of transportation and fullfill a vital role in
contemporary life. So do Merle Haggard, Dave Alvin, and a whole bunch of
people who write songs in the venerated sense. There's a difference between
time-honored and old fashioned. As Schoenberg said, there's still a lot of
new music to be written in C.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 18:44:53 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <zsteiner@butler.edu>
Subject: RE: Pop Song
When I say successful, I mean songs that people enjoy and thus pay for
(so commercial success has something to do with it). There are songs
that seem to permeate our culture, Like "The Piano Man" or that Green
Day song of a couple years ago. I look at these as pop songs. Songs
that just about "every one" sings along with. Songs that show up in a
lots of TV ads or movies. Songs that lots of people at least recognize.
Also as successful, there's songs that give people a feeling. I don't
know if it's the melody, the harmony, the lyrics or what, but they give
people a feeling that they like. A tingle in the spin and lump in the
throat...what ever you want to call it. Not just certain people (I'm
sure Zorn gets a lot us), but a vast majority of people. To me that
points to some kind of almost archetypal quality to these songs. I see
that kind of quality in music from all time periods, whether I
personally like them or not. I've also found that there are certain
songs that annoy me to no end, but still elicit an emotional reaction.
Those I see as successful pop songs.
I agree with Skip on the La Vida Loca count. Ricky can present the
lyrics well, even if they aren't the best, and man can he shake those
hips...
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:30:23 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Pop Song
On Sun, May 05, 2002 at 06:47:36PM -0400, Dave Smey wrote:
> I'm sure everybody on
> this list would agree that many "hits" aren't really good (e.g., "La Vida
> Loca") either from a technical musical standpoint (because the chords,
> rhythms, etc. aren't interesting) or an aesthetic standpoint (because we
> really don't like them and wish they weren't so popular).
Well, some of us think it's a good song.
- --
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ |
| http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ |
| == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == |
| Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:10:00 -0400
From: "Dave Smey" <dsmey@mindspring.com>
Subject: pop song
> When I say successful, I mean songs that people enjoy and thus pay for
> (so commercial success has something to do with it). There are songs
> that seem to permeate our culture, Like "The Piano Man" or that Green
> Day song of a couple years ago. I look at these as pop songs. Songs
> that just about "every one" sings along with. Songs that show up in a
> lots of TV ads or movies. Songs that lots of people at least recognize.
>
What about songs that seem great to you (and maybe even to lots of critics),
but fail to become hits? Successful?
[oops, forgot to send to list, sorry.]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 21:33:38 EDT
From: RainDog138@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pop Song
at the media school i am presently a student at, our music business textbook
declares a good "pop" song meets the following criteria:
instantly catchy (it must grab your attention immediately and supply the hook
as soon as possible - therefor eliminating any sort of intro or build-up) (i
can think of thousands of exceptions to that one)
must have an element of mystery (lyrically should answer some questions while
supplying you with even more questions) (just what where they throwing off
the tallahassee bridge? ; )
must be about 3 and a half minutes long (to be radio friendly and not bore
consumer suffering from A.D.D.) (i can also think of tons of longer and
shorter "hits" - sleepwalk by santo and johnny (quite short), inna gadda da
vida by steppenwolf (long as all hell), paranoid android by radiohead, how
bout every ramones tune coming in under two minutes - that kinda leaves you
wanting more - which is an attractive trait in a song often times - atleast
to me)
good song structure or well crafted (this is very general, but most pop hits
are the standard verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, double chorus) (often
the bridge is even thrown out all together or the solo section replaces it)
(see nirvana's "verse chorus verse" aka "sappy")
then the book goes on to say in order for "success" to happen the artist must
be attractive and ready to conform to the rules of the corporation that
surrounds them...basically be a damn puppet without any artistic control.
i could be more detailed about this, but the books out in my car and it's
raining right now. you all probably think this is as foolish as i do. i hope
you do.
i feel that in most commercially succesful tunes you'll find a ton of
similarities in song structure, but not nearly as often or as obvious
similarites in melodic content. (although i think the chords to louie louie
are a sure thing - see: "wild thing", weezer's "undone" etc. etc.) (also that
old fifties chord progression always gets me in every song i hear it in - you
know...that "blue moon" progression - C to A to F to G in 6/8 time)
maybe we should get a little list going of unconventional "hits" that can't
be explained by the above criteria....what do ya think?
- -mt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 19:56:16 -0700
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: Pop Song
On Sunday, May 5, 2002, 6:33:38 PM, RainDog138 wrote:
Rac> inna gadda da vida by steppenwolf (long as all hell),
Aside from the obvious howler here, it should be noted that the 7"
edit (the one that *sold* all those records) was 2:53.
- --
Jim Flannery mailto:newgrange@sfo.com
np: Zingaro/Lee, _Western Front Vancouver 1996_
nr: Wolff, _Burn Rate_
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:16:27 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thorsten_Kr=E4mer?= <kraemer@popkomm.de>
Subject: Intellectual satanism
So everyone is excited about "IAO" but I have to say that I'm rather annoyed
by the theme of Zorn's new 'major work'. Let me explain: Although there is
this liberal, enlightened view of satanism as emancipatory philosopy and
repressed knowledge etc., it nevertheless deals with ritual sacrifices
and/or raping. It would be very hard to deny the violent and anti-human
aspects of satanism. So why all this indulgence in late 19th century
romanticism, seeing the satanistic and occult as some kind of avant-garde?
To me, Charles Manson isn't any cooler than Adolf Hitler. For someone like
Zorn who has recorded "Kristallnacht", isn't it rather silly to flirt with
satanism? I'd really like to hear some opinions on this...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:06:26 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Intellectual satanism
Hello.
>Although there is
>this liberal, enlightened view of satanism as emancipatory philosopy and
>repressed knowledge etc., it nevertheless deals with ritual sacrifices
>and/or raping.
No it doesn't.
>It would be very hard to deny the violent and anti-human
>aspects of satanism.
Most satanist say that they might as well call their belief for secular
humanism. Basically it's the same thing. Read the sources, not the tabloids.
Personally, I think satanism as founded by Anton Lavey is personal
ultraliberalism. Very narrow minded and not helpful.
>Charles Manson isn't any cooler than Adolf Hitler.
This is just ridiclious and out of perportions.
>For someone like
>Zorn who has recorded "Kristallnacht", isn't it rather silly to flirt with
>satanism? I'd really like to hear some opinions on this...
So your point is that people should not make artistic works about negative
subjects? Please.....
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:20:47 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Aki Takase Blues Project, + Frith
Hello,
I found a little info on the Aki Takase Blues Project CD:
http://www.jazzrecords.com/enja/9130.htm
It looks very interesting. It's certainly a great lineup.
The description makes it sounds very "straight", which is rather surprising!
Of course, it's wellknown that Frith is a huge fan of blues and have been
inspired by it since he first picked up the guitar, but it's very rare to
here him actually play it. In fact, it's very strange to here him play
*anything* straight!! How "mainstream" is this CD actually?
Cheers.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:44:53 EDT
From: SonataPathetique@aol.com
Subject: satanism
Growing up in an Atheist family and being the only one I knew of until I was
a teenager, "satanic" music is what really helped me get through childhood.
I discovered Slayer at 10 and grew my hair and had shirts with demons on
them. Everyone would tell me I was going to hell and I would just laugh at
how seriously they would take it. To me, satanism in music has always been a
shield against the force fed religion I encounter in life. Thank god for
satanism.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:34:35 -0400
From: "Sean Westergaard" <seawes@allmusic.com>
Subject: RE: Pop Song
>Have there been any writings seeking to find what makes a pop song
>successful? Looking into chords, rhythms, lyrical themes, etc. It
>seems that pop songs from yesteryear share similarities with modern day
>pop songs. That could just be my own flawed observation. Thanks.
>Zach
i just saw a cd that was put together by Dave Soldier and 2 Russian
musicians/art weirdos where they did some kind of survey on what aspects of
music people liked, and which they didn't. based on these results, they
assembled "the world's most popular song" and "the world's least popular
song" (or titles to that effect). of course the DJ before me played the
least popular song (around 20 minutes), which wasn't nearly as awful as
anything Mariah Carey has recorded, but had asian tonalities and things that
don't generally appeal to a western listener. i sure wish i could remember
the title...
sean
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:26:37 +0000
From: "David Evans" <davidcerievans@hotmail.com>
Subject: Arto? and a last word on Cicala Mvta
>New CD "Invoke" is coming out on June 25. The list of musicians on it
>makes me believe that it will be in the same quasi-Brazilian style as
>four previous ones.
BBC Radio 3's brilliant show Mixing It played the title track from 'Invoke'
a couple of weeks back and it was more of the same, although he tries hard
to put a different slant on it each time.
I checked out the Ruins Magabaitsu site the other day and Tatsuya Yoshida
was playing drums with Cicala Mvta somewhere in Tokyo - that I would like to
see!
Dave
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:32:57 +0000
From: "David Evans" <davidcerievans@hotmail.com>
Subject: Nicholas Collins
Dear Zornies,
I'm calling on your collective expertise here.
I have a knackered old recording of a track by Nicholas Collins and the
Soldier String Quartet. I think the album it was off was called 'It was a
dark and stormy night' and the track was 'Broken Light no.1'. The quartet
are playing along to a skipping CD player - kind of Cartoon S&M meets Oval.
I guess the album has long since been deleted, but if anyone has any info
about it I'd love to know more.
Thanks
Dave
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:27:03 +0100
From: pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: CD'S FOR SALE
* "ROBERTO J. LOPEZ" <rlopez@sinectis.com.ar>:
>ALBOTH: Liebefeld. CD. P.D.C.D.Records.(with Kevin Norton,
>associated with Zorn in the group God)
Err ... that'd be Kevin Martin.
He produced the LP, but doesn't play on it.
- -P
NP: Wibutee - "Newborn Thing"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:32:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Efr=E9n=20del=20Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: satanism
Hi,
I don't really understand why someone growing up in an
Atheist family would embrace "satanism" in any sense.
My family is religious but I'm an atheist. My reaction
was not going against Cristianism by "supporting" the
opposite, but just ignoring the existance of something
"beyond our understanding". For me, satanism it's just
another way of belief in something that's never been
proved, just as bad or incoherent as any other
religious cult.
Zorn has always taken unexpected directions all
through his career and this is probably just one more.
I don't think this goes beyond a taste for Satanist
aesthetics, just as happened with S/M during the NC
period, IMHO. Anyway, it'll be good to open
discussions as happened with the Zionist or Japanese
girls issues.
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Tom Waits "Blood Money"
>
> Growing up in an Atheist family and being the only
> one I knew of until I was
> a teenager, "satanic" music is what really helped me
> get through childhood.
> I discovered Slayer at 10 and grew my hair and had
> shirts with demons on
> them. Everyone would tell me I was going to hell
> and I would just laugh at
> how seriously they would take it. To me, satanism
> in music has always been a
> shield against the force fed religion I encounter in
> life. Thank god for
> satanism.
>
> -
>
_______________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #897
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