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Zorn List Digest         Monday, April 8 2002         Volume 03 : Number 877



In this issue:
-
       Now I've heard everything.....
       Buzzcocks video (No Zorn Content)
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       RE: Help for a translation
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       RE: Now I've heard everything.....
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       Jazz as High Art
       RE: Now I've heard everything.....
       duckworth book
       duckworth#
       Re: Jazz as High Art
       RE: Wuorinen & Adams
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....
       Acid Mothers Temple
       Re: Now I've heard everything.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:34:47 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Now I've heard everything.....

DEREK BAILEY - Ballads (Tzadik 7607) Experimental avant-jazz guitar wiz
Derek Bailey performs a program of his favorite standards in his own
enigmatic way on his newly acquired vintage arch-top acoustic guitar just
days before he did an in-store hear at DMG! A textbook of originality, Derek
alters and twists tunes from the American songbook into his own style and
leaves us quite amazed by the results. Insight liner notes from Marc Ribot
attempt to explain the mystery.

Quite hard to believe, isn't it?!



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:39:39 -0500
From: "William Crump" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Buzzcocks video (No Zorn Content)

Does any film or video footage exist of the Buzzcocks from the early days of
the band, up through 1980 or so? I'm checking for a friend, now that I have
the bandwidth to do something about a positive answer. Please answer
off-list, and thanks up front.

William Crump
- --


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:40:38 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:34:47 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> DEREK BAILEY - Ballads (Tzadik 7607) Experimental avant-jazz guitar wiz
> Derek Bailey performs a program of his favorite standards in his own
> enigmatic way on his newly acquired vintage arch-top acoustic guitar just
> days before he did an in-store hear at DMG! A textbook of originality, Derek
> alters and twists tunes from the American songbook into his own style and
> leaves us quite amazed by the results. Insight liner notes from Marc Ribot
> attempt to explain the mystery.
>
> Quite hard to believe, isn't it?!

I was wondering if it was an April's fool joke.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:48:25 +0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

hello

>I was wondering if it was an April's fool joke.

It's possible!

I think that if after 35 years of plink plonk, Derek Bailey suddenly makes
an album of jazz standards, it had better be *really* fucking good! ;-)

Still in shock.





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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:49:35 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Help for a translation

Did you not receive the answer I already sent the first time you asked,
EfrΘn? Or is this second message some kind of strange computer error?

Anyway, "ad copy" = writing the words for advertisements. But that's not all
Lucas did at Columbia. He was responsible for Tim's signing.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Otomo/Rowe/Sugimoto, "The Room," 'Ajar' (Alcohol)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of EfrΘn del Valle
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 10:31 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Help for a translation


HI,

I'm currently translating a Tim Berne interview from
Perfect Sound Forever and there's something I don't
quite understand. Berne states that Gary Lucas was
working as "ad copy" for Columbia (if I'm not wrong).
If any English speakers could give me a description of
what "ad copy" is, I'll probably be able to find a
correspondance in Spanish.

A million thanks in advance.

BTW, check the interview! It's really good.

Best,

Efrin del Valle

_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
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http://messenger.yahoo.es





- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 11:53:04 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 18:48:25 +0000  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> hello
>
> >I was wondering if it was an April's fool joke.
>
> It's possible!
>
> I think that if after 35 years of plink plonk, Derek Bailey suddenly makes
> an album of jazz standards, it had better be *really* fucking good! ;-)

And I am eagerly waiting for:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*** - MEA CULPA: Derek Bailey, Jim O'Rourke

    2002 - Dodecacophony (UK), DR 002 (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned in June 2002).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

where they are covering R&B by Clapton, Beck, and Page.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:13:55 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Now I've heard everything.....

The most shocking moment in "Interlude" on the disc 'Drop Me Off at 96th' is
when Bailey suddenly hauls out a few bars of the old standard "I Didn't Know
What Time It Was." He's clearly still capaable. But if this *isn't* an April
Fool's joke (which I admit I'd not considered), then I'd have to assume
there's some degree of irony in the description. Guess I'll try to find out
some time this week.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - MIMEO/Tilbury, 'The Hands of Caravaggio' (Erstwhile)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Arthur Gadney
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 2:48 PM

I think that if after 35 years of plink plonk, Derek Bailey suddenly makes
an album of jazz standards, it had better be *really* fucking good! ;-)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:26:02 -0700
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

I don't see why the thought of Derek Bailey playing standards is so
far-fetched.  He's obviously a guy who has a thorough knowledge of the
literature of guitar and is in touch with a lot of things.  I seriously
doubt that he would look down his nose at the contributions of someone like
Wes Montgomery, nor do I think he would see that kind of playing as
irrelevant.  He certainly seems to have the proper respect that should be
afforded any music of substance.

If Dave Holland wanting to play as seemingly provincial a style as bluegrass
has happened, surely Bailey looking into more bop-oriented territory can't
be that much of a shock.

skip h

NP: dave douglas, the infinite


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:38:03 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazz as High Art

I always looked at jazz as an emotional music, one that loses a lot of
its effect if it's detached from that emotion.  It seems the farther
that jazz goes from its roots as a vernacular music with high emotional
content (be it sorrow, joy, anger, or pride), the less it becomes jazz.
I realized the perception of jazz as high art when speaking to a class
of first graders.  When I asked what jazz was one of the kids said that
it was "fancy music."  I always saw jazz as a simple music that has
definite soul and emotion to it.  I never really had much tolerance for
jazz (or other music for that matter) that does not have some emotion
attached to it (I consider the spirit of exploration emotional content,
btw).  Do people agree that this lack of emotion, or meaning, to jazz is
detrimental?  If this is the case, who started this trend?  Swing? Bop?
Avant-garde? Fusion? Smooth Jazz? I'm curious...

Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:34:17 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Now I've heard everything.....

Wow! Any more info on this label and its availability?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - MIMEO/John Tilbury, 'The Hands of Caravaggio' (Erstwhile)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Patrice L.
Roussel

And I am eagerly waiting for:

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

*** - MEA CULPA: Derek Bailey, Jim O'Rourke

    2002 - Dodecacophony (UK), DR 002 (CD)

  Note: not released yet (planned in June 2002).

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

where they are covering R&B by Clapton, Beck, and Page.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 19:46:47 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: duckworth book

don't even know if it's out of print, but there's a hardbound copy of
"talking music" on ebay with no bids as yet. includes interviews with zorn,
la monte young, john cage, others. really a great book.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 19:47:38 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: duckworth#

sorry, meant to include the item #, since zorn's name isn't in the search
field. it's 855877807

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:56:51 -0700
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz as High Art

on 4/8/02 12:38 PM, Zachary Steiner at [e-mail] wrote:

>Do people agree that this lack of emotion, or meaning, to jazz is
> detrimental?  If this is the case, who started this trend?  Swing? Bop?
> Avant-garde? Fusion? Smooth Jazz? I'm curious...
>
> Zach
>
When it comes down to the brain before the heart -- no matter what the art
form -- you're definitely losing something.

I don't know where the trend started.  One could probably argue Bix
Beiderbecke's masterpiece "In A Mist" put the intellectual side to the fore
(although I think it's more about capturing a feeling than proving a
theorum).  Near as I can tell, Bill Evans' intelligent playing became a kind
of rallying point for players who wanted to enforce their intellectual auras
and therefore impress people with their giant brains.  One could argue
Tristano, but it's pretty evident that BE had infinitely wider influence.
The lack of evident concentration of conventional swinging and the obvious
influence of certain piano literature (Ravel, Debussy, Scriabin) became the
hallmarks of the "Evans school", but, to be truthful, Evans himself was far
from being products of just those two things.  He had obviously come through
the process of jazz in the most mainstream sense (of his era), and -- check
out his playing on George Ruseel or Cannonball Adderley's records -- was in
his heart of hearts very much from the mainstream jazz world (again of his
era).  He was just original enough not to be completely defined by it.  But
his lesser imitators (of whom there are many) never went that deep.

The fly in the ointment is that Bill Evans -- and his foremost acolyte,
Herbie Hancock -- were not cold, intellectual technicians.  But, as with so
many innovators (Jaco, Joey Baron, Charlie Parker), the imitation tends to
be of the surface elements.  Bill Evans and the others will likely go on
taking the crap for influencing a bunch of people who neither have the mind
to make music that sounds like themselves, nor the character to do music
that comes from the solar plexus and not just a collection of mannerisms.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:03:06 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Wuorinen & Adams

>What you say here is certainly true, but if Wuorinen was responding
>to a question something like "name the dozen composers who are most
>interesting/important/etc to you," which I'm pretty sure is the
>context for this list, he's under no obligation to accurately
>represent the history of Western classical music.

That may well have been his interpretation. But the actual, verbatim
question was: "Tell us a bit about the history of Western music since, oh,
say, 1300." That does kind of throw things into another perspective, doesn't
it?

>for what it's worth, similar lists by Steve
>Reich have some of the same lapses though, of course, the most recent
>composers Reich picks as important to him are quite different.

Right, Reich skips from Perotin to Bach to Stravinsky. I'd have the same
bone to pick with him, under the circumstances. Boulez, at least, includes
Berlioz, Debussy, Mahler and Messaien.

>What you say about his frequent vociferous & public position as
>apologist for serialist music in the face of "neo-Romantics,
>minimalist and other assorted eclectics" is again true (though your
>sense of history is somewhat skewed, he's had this attitude since the
>mid-1970s)

I'm aware of that, but what was he up against then that's so different from
today, save for the mainstream minimalists and the post-minimalists? Cage,
Crumb and Nancarrow weren't being performed, either.

>I don't live in NYC, but WNYC never
>played much, if any, music by Scoenberg, Wolpe, Babbitt, Carter,
>either, to name only those mentioned in Wuorinen's top 12 list.

Okay, I'm guilty of oversensationalizing his argument. He's complaining that
they don't play his music and the music of his own chosen models and
aesthetic. For what it's worth, on the other hand, Schaefer has played
plenty of such composers as Cage, Crumb and Nancarrow, and included the
first two in his book, as well. None of them fit into Wuorinen's reductivist
"failed rock and roll" camp, either.

>If, say, Dave Douglas were to make a similar argument about the lack
>of downtown scene-sters on any of the countless jazz stations across
>the US that basically follow the Wynton line of music history, I
>doubt that you'd reduce his argument to "The station doesn't play MY
>music."

Okay, I concede the point. Both Wuorinen and Douglas would have a valid
point regarding the conservatism and vapidity of most radio. But Douglas
would not decry the lack of his own music and that of his models by
demeaning that which came after him.

>I know the station's been supportive of "neo-Romantics"
>but based on my limited sense of things from my increasingly scarce
>visits to NY, the "other assorted eclectics" who were part of the
>station's overall programming mix, and not simply heard on John
>Schaeffer's program, were few and far between.

They played a huge role in David Garland's programming, as well. But you do
have a point about the programming that occured outside those poles. Every
radio station is guilty of catering to the audience it percieves will best
support it, which is why most classical stations are going under and most
NPR stations are abandoning classical music and jazz (including WNYC).

>And finally, given the release of Wuorinen's disc on Tzadik, do you
>really question whether he'd want his music to be heard in same
>context as Zorn's? Isn't that exactly the situation of having a disc
>released on Zorn's label? The CD can't be a surprise to Wuorinen, so
>I'd be amazed if he were to have a problem with the recent concert.

Here I have to disagree. Wuorinen's own personal taste regarding the other
music with which he shares a concert program doesn't necessarily have to
coincide whatsoever with his willingness to let that other composer release
and support Wuorinen's own music by any means necessary. It wouldn't mean
that he wasn't squirming anxiously through Zorn's piece on the concert
program - and I'm not sayng that he was (it was too dark to tell, even
though he was sitting directly in front of me). I'm just saying that I
wondered, especially since Zorn certainly deviates from the serialist
orthodoxy that Wuorinen has taken such pains to defend.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - poire_z with Otomo Yoshihide, "bottle_bow," '+' (Erstwhile)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:13:13 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

On Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:26:02 -0700  skip Heller wrote:
>
> I don't see why the thought of Derek Bailey playing standards is so
> far-fetched.  He's obviously a guy who has a thorough knowledge of the
> literature of guitar and is in touch with a lot of things.  I seriously
> doubt that he would look down his nose at the contributions of someone like
> Wes Montgomery, nor do I think he would see that kind of playing as
> irrelevant.  He certainly seems to have the proper respect that should be
> afforded any music of substance.

I don't think anybody was doubting his capabilities to play such standards.
The surprise comes from the fact that after more than 30 years of die-hard
uncompromising improv he would put out such record (assuming that the descrip-
tion is correct).

    Patrice (who wonders if Skip has any Bailey record :-).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:20:07 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

On Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:34:17 -0400  "Steve Smith" wrote:
>
> Wow! Any more info on this label and its availability?

Darn, now you are making me feel guilty. This one is a joke.

    Patrice.

> And I am eagerly waiting for:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> *** - MEA CULPA: Derek Bailey, Jim O'Rourke
>
>     2002 - Dodecacophony (UK), DR 002 (CD)
>
>   Note: not released yet (planned in June 2002).
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> where they are covering R&B by Clapton, Beck, and Page.
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:42:59 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Acid Mothers Temple

> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 13:29:31 -0400
> From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
>
> Now, would anyone mind telling me where to begin with Acid Mothers Temple?

Try "Troubadours From Another Heavenly World" or "New Geocentric World." If you're
a Krautrock fan, you'll probably like these.  If you're satisfied, you should
definitely then get "Absolutely Freak Out (Zap Your Mind!)."

Best,
Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 14:33:41 -0700
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Now I've heard everything.....

on 4/8/02 1:13 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:


> I don't think anybody was doubting his capabilities to play such standards.
> The surprise comes from the fact that after more than 30 years of die-hard
> uncompromising improv he would put out such record (assuming that the descrip-
> tion is correct).
>
> Patrice (who wonders if Skip has any Bailey record :-).

Given who his audience is, making a record of standards is a bold move. And
if he's doing exactly what he wants to do exactly as he cares to, I don't
see a compromise.   Also, if he just bought a really nice arch-top guitar,
that he would do a record that exploits the qualities of that particular
instrument isn't shocking.  When I bought a really nice flat-top accoustic,
I went full-bore into revisiting bluegrass music and have recently formed a
trio to play that. No compromise there, either.

As for my Bailey collection, I've bought stuff, checked it out, and usually
traded it in.  Derek is an amazing musician, but he's not my cup of tea.
I'm more of a blues-based listener, so, while I appreciate his inventiveness
and marvel at his technique, there's a bit of a language barrier there for
me.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #877
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