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Zorn List Digest        Friday, March 22 2002        Volume 03 : Number 841



In this issue:
-
       knocking on the floodgates
       RE: Fela
       Re: knocking on the floodgates
       Re: Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop)
       Re: Reed-Bacharach
       Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
       Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)
       RE: Big John Patton left us...
       Non-JZ FS: New Miles Davis 2CDs
       please
       RE: hip hop
       Re: hip hop
       Re: flag-waving
       RE: hip Hop
       Cecil at UCLA
       Re: Ooops!... Britney again!
       Re: flag-waving
       Re: hip Hop

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:31:01 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: knocking on the floodgates

ok - i was issued a challenge in one of my music theory classes to bring in a
piece of music that is truly innovative and has never been done before. this
was thought to be impossible according to the discussion among the rest of
the class. this came about sadly because of another critical listening
session where someone brought in scott wieland's "twelve bar blues" album and
called it extremely innovative and "way out there". well, this comment rubbed
a certain classmate (who happens to be a zorn fan) very much in the wrong
way. so he (a normally reserved student) scoffed openly at the idea of
weiland's work on that album being innovative or really even remotely new and
thought it was unfair to call him innovative in any respect (except maybe
drug abuse).

then the challenge was issued due to the fact that the instructor said it's
all been done before in some degree or another. the class agreed. the student
and I did not.

immediately i began thinking of perhaps bringing in some Partch (who again,
quite sadly, i discovered my "instructor" has never even heard before. then I
thought of Patton's "Adult themes for Voice" or Zorn's "songs from the
hermetic theater" and a of course a very few other's. my collection is
limited as I lived in a small town until last fall and these things are hard
to come by when the only record store is a wal mart. i've done a lot of
driving just get my john zorn and tom waits collection built up!

it's too easy to say well "at the time this came out it was very innovative"
because then we could spend a year or two on this subject (beatles, pink
floyd, radiohead) on really popular music that was a little different than
most at the time it came out. No, my challenge is now to you (who seem to be
infinitely more experienced in this field than I) to help me with this and
point out some truly innovative works and point out why you think that they
are just that. (hense the title of this e-mail)

p.s. - i am new to this "musique concrete" you've been discussing lately and
i am very interested in this. could you recommend your favorite works? also,
at the risk of sounding ignorant, would you say that zorn's "beuysblock"
contains elements of musique concrete or no? just trying to terribly hard to
learn all i can.

your friend - mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:34:44 -0600
From: "John Thomas"<[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fela

> Hey guys.
>
> My local shop has a bunch of Fela Kuti things for sale, and
> I'm wondering if
> I should pick them up. There is so much of his stuff suddenly
> rereleased and
> frankly, not all of it is worth owning.
> So, has anybody heard any of the following:
>
> "Upside Down?Music Of Many Colors"
> "Open & Close/Afrodisiac"
> "Monkey Banana/Excuse"

I have 3 Felas and "Monkey Banana/Excuse-O" is my favorite by
far, it is fantastic. Great tunes, grooving, cool horn playing.
My taste runs more to jazz in general and the music on this is
something I identified with immediately. It even reminded me of
Sun Ra in some ways.

John

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:39:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: knocking on the floodgates

mmm.  innovative works.

i think what i'd do is continue making a huge stink over scott weiland's lack
of innovation, carry it out for a few days, and then bring in some john
corigliano and proclaim its innovation.  ;)

but seriously, some works i would consider innovative (whether i like them or
not):

In C (Riley)
Piano Phase (Reich)
Stimmung (Stockhausen)
any Ives symphony or concert band piece
Symphony No. 1 (Branca)
any old Sonic Youth album
Velvet Underground with Nico (Warhol album)
Pet Sounds (Beach Boys)
any Meredith Monk

:) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



- ---
[.n0thing.is.what.is.sAid.]
k a t e  p e t e r s o n
c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r

http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html
http://www.icefoundation.org (roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:29:01 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gil Scott Heron (wuz hip hop)

on 3/22/02 6:12 AM, aaron chua at [e-mail] wrote:

> while on the topic of GSH, i'm curious where to start
> with him. seems to be a heap of comps out there.
> rgrds
> aaron

find the old LP THE MIND OF GIL SCOTT HERON, which, to me, is a perfect
primer of him

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:32:42 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Reed-Bacharach

on 3/22/02 5:55 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 3/22/02 8:36:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [e-mail] writes:
>
> <<
> do I find someone who thinks that Bacharach
>
> has influenced Lou Reed's songwriting?
>>>
> As we all know, Elvis was influenced by Dean Martin
>
> -
>
"Candy Says" always sounded to me like it was Burt-influenced (specifically
the chord progression).  I looked all over the place thru Lou interviews to
see if he designed it that way on purpose, but no luck.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:46:15 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)

> >> "the message" came out WAY before genius of love, and both cop a riff
>from a
> >> song by chic.
> >
> > Uh, OK, this is getting weird. What Chic song might this be?
>
>"Good Times", wasn't it? That was an early staple for MCs back in the day.
>It was the backing track for "Rapper's Delight" and several other things
>(whose names slip my memory).

ok, since the chic thread is surprisingly staying alive, i get the chance to
tell the TRUE STORY of where the riff came from, as told to me directly by
nile rogers.

nile and bernie had a mtg with some record exec, before chic and before
recording. took their demos in, all excited, and were flat-out rejected.
they went home and wrote "good times", except the original lyrics were "fuck
you".

c'est freak,

kurt


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:57:18 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: grandtomtomchic(no onion content)

on 3/22/02 8:46 AM, Kurt Gottschalk at [e-mail] wrote:

> nile and bernie had a mtg with some record exec, before chic and before
> recording. took their demos in, all excited, and were flat-out rejected.
> they went home and wrote "good times", except the original lyrics were "fuck
> you".

makes you hope the demo turns up real soon, in light of the current state of
the industry.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:06:50 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Big John Patton left us...

Geez, right after Shirley Scott?!?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Geirr Tveitt, A Hundred Hardanger Tunes, Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
(Naxos)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Patrice L.
Roussel

    Another sad news.

There is a message on r.m.b. saying that Big John Patton passed away on
Tuesday 3/19/02.

    Patrice.


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date:
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Non-JZ FS: New Miles Davis 2CDs

Of possible interest ... NEW COPIES of these classic live Miles 2CDs:

** PRICES ARE US$ POSTAGE PAID ** in North America (more for overseas)

$16 -- Miles Davis - "Agharta" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46799) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

$16 -- Miles Davis - "Pangaea" US 2CD (Columbia/Legacy: c2k46115) 1991
       [Recorded live at Osaka Festival Hall, Japan - 2/1/75.  Davis
       with Sonny Fortune, Michael Henderson, Pete Cosey, Al Foster,
       Reggie Lucas & Mtume.  Digitally remastered.  Mint.]

Email if interested,


- -Patrick
[e-mail]







- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:28:07 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: please

the self-annointed herbivore rises again, now that hopefully this latest fog
has passed.

look, mssr rizzi has repeatedly posted about personal insults, and i don't
like reading them. the latest round of freudian refs and thinly veiled
accusations of homosexuality is
goddamn-motherfucking-piece-of-rotten-shit-quit-acting-like-assholes
uncalled for. really.

good times/these are such good times/leave your cares behind...

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:23:54 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip hop

Oh, I bet Dre's watched 'Ally McBeal' once or twice... ;-)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Geirr Tveitt, Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
(Naxos)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
[e-mail]

I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.

- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:34:20 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip hop

on 3/22/02 9:23 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Oh, I bet Dre's watched 'Ally McBeal' once or twice... ;-)
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Geirr Tveitt, Hundred Hardanger Tunes Suite No. 5 - RSNO/Engeset
> (Naxos)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
>
> I doubt that Dr. Dre even knows who John Cage is.
>
> -
>
>
> -
>
Of the two John Cage's, that's the one I prefer myself.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:40:47 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
> disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the

And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating
and 95% who believe in god, right?). It is true that the polls do not claim
that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders
(read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and
bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America
with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating.

If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy? The rest of the world
hopes so.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:50:01 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: hip Hop

Isn't it much more tenable, though, that Jamaican toasting played a pretty
major role in rap's development, especially in the diaspora of the Bronx? I
certainly hear that kind of influence in some of the really fast rapping in
vogue right this minute...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Gloria Coates, String Quartet No. 5 - Kreutzer Quartet (Naxos)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of skip Heller
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 12:50 PM

The dub connection was, at least in the early period, tenuous at best.
Until "The Message" (1982), most rap records were really about a party
atmosphere.  Probably the most written-about dub LP in this country up to
that point was Linton Kwesi Johnson's FORCES OF VICTORY, which, if the Flash
guys heard it at all, they probably would have heard fr one of the guys in
the Clash, for whom they opened at least one show at Bond's.  I remember Joe
"I'm One of the PEOPLE" Strummer making it a point to get his picture taken
with Melle Mel in some big rock mag.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:00:25 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cecil at UCLA

"It was left to Cecil Taylor to ravage the countryside. This he
did, skullcapped and white-robed, dancing around the stage like a
deranged monk to dynamo-babble stuff about "subatomic trucks from
the bubble chamber" between extended forays into cultural
condensation on his huge Stealth-like pianoforte. Restructured
flashes of everything from Prokofiev to Scott Joplin sped by in a
whirling trance, profound and inspiring. This man fills you up."

 http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/18/music-angel.shtml



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:02:05 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ooops!... Britney again!

Efr=E9n wrote:

> Are the
> "underground" filmmaker and the Hollywood-puppet the
> same person?!<

Um, yeah they are ... judging by her earlier work (_Billy Madison_,=20

_CB4_, _Gun Crazy_), I'm not sure where the word "underground" comes=20

into it though ... I've never heard of her doing anything more=20

"experimental" than a Bangles video ... what position is she supposed

to be "selling out" from?


- --=20
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery                                           [e-mail]

np: Carlos Zingaro/Peggy Lee, _Western Front, Vancouver 1999_
nr: John Lanchester, _The Debt to Pleasure_


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:18:47 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: flag-waving

on 3/22/02 9:40 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at [e-mail] wrote:

>
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:25:24 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>>
>> I note that you also find it difficult to conceive of an American
>> disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld or George W. Bush. I think the
>
> And I think he has some good reason to believe that (80% of positive rating
> and 95% who believe in god, right?). It is true that the polls do not claim
> that Joseph Zitt is behind this administration, but you can excuse outsiders
> (read: outside USA) to have some concerns when comparing the arrogant and
> bully attitude of this admistration (which seems to equate good for America
> with good for the rest of the world) with its amazingly high rating.
>
> If intellectuals were not nitpicking on irrelevant and frivolous issues and
> open their mouth, maybe the outsiders would feel that there is some reaction
> in this country. Right now they only notice a big silence from the ones who
> are supposed to react. Is it only temporary apathy? The rest of the world
> hopes so.
>
> Patrice.
>

I don't know that intellectuals speaking out has ever solved anything --
were it only that simple.  During the Vietnam era, the perception of the US
citizenry -- such as it could be viewed by those in the international
elsewhere -- was definitely that our rank-and-file citizenry were far more
motivated to say something publicly about the decisions our leadership made
and how they were being implemented.  That it looked interesting on the news
didn;t hurt, either.  Bunch of weird-lookin' young people gathered in one
place is always a good start.  If there can be a riot, even better.

Now, those events have been replaced by TV news stories -- little "human
interest" items" -- about the 90 year old woman with a flag on the antenna
of her car.

The intellectual community has rarely spoken for the interests of the
blue-collar community, and the blue-collar community forms the bulk of this
democracy.  That they don't have control of things is another matter
entirely.  But I don't think their collective attitudes are represented by
the intellectual community, or "those who are supposed to react".  And, when
you think about it, "those who are supposed to react" have never been held
up as the people we wanna show to the rest of the world.  Think about this
- -- the USA is probably the only major country without a Minister Of Culture.
We're not holding up Elliot Carter or Sonny Rollins as the ambassadors of
our best kind of thinking.  We send out Garth Brooks.  If he typifies the
culture (and, to most Americans, he does), what makes you think the
leadership of this country isn't similarly Garth-tastic? Show me a guy in a
leadership in this country that you would call "the Eliot Carter of American
statesmen" at this time.

I doubt that Jospeh Zitt owns any Garth Brooks records.  I would also doubt
that he's read THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY.  I hold neither of these
things against him, and neither do you.  I don't think any of us on this
list are really in a poisition to speak on behalf of our neighbors.  We're
the weird guys.  The normal folks are putting flag decals on their
windshields and getting behind the administration (and are not all-the-way
informed about what they're endorsing).  And these are the people who are on
the news when they want a "man on the street" soundbyte.  When they get
college professors or political analysts for commentary, you usually see
something really boring.  And nobody from the news media seems intent on
getting Chuck D, Jello Biafra, or -- on the extreme other side -- Ted Nugent
to go into depth on camera about this stuff.

Why is this? Look at who owns our biggest media outlets.  These are the
richest, old boy network fat cats in history.  These are the guys who
contributed insane amounts of money to getting the W elected.  They also run
companies like AOL and Clear Channel.  They bring you the Shania Twain's of
the world.   They're not going to give Michael Moore international airtime.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:19:51 -0800
From: skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: hip Hop

on 3/22/02 9:50 AM, Steve Smith at [e-mail] wrote:

> Isn't it much more tenable, though, that Jamaican toasting played a pretty
> major role in rap's development, especially in the diaspora of the Bronx? I
> certainly hear that kind of influence in some of the really fast rapping in
> vogue right this minute...
>
> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> NP - Gloria Coates, String Quartet No. 5 - Kreutzer Quartet (Naxos)

I agree to a point, but I think the really fast stuff is influenced by
something later -- dancehall.

sh


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #841
*******************************


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