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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, February 6 2002      Volume 03 : Number 754



In this issue:
-
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs
       Zorn's Pants
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs
       downtown related items on ebay
       Old School
       Zorn as Miles????????
       Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs
       cibo matto recs
       Re: Independent Groups
       Re: Zorn as Miles????????
       manchester with previte
       the new miles's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:53:02 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs

I was just curious
> about concrete examples because you sound like you're coming from more of
a
> jazz/improv/experimental direction, and while I find it easy to think of
> rock ripoffs, it's a little tougher with the Highbrow Stuff.
What about a 'highbrow guy' trying to be Frank Zappa? Pierre Henry once made
a hopeless sixties album called Messe pour les temps present. He really
tries to keep up with psychedelica by using the riff of Louie Louie in his
score. Ouch.

It's just as embarassing as seeing Mick Jagger discussing the problems of
the world with the bishop of Canterbury. At least one of them must have had
a really bad advisor.
- ------------
Dutch composer Louis Andriessen would be utterly cool if he would stop
trying to be fucking Stravinsky all the time. Although Andriessen built a
sound world of his own, the fandom towards Stravinsky is just too obvious to
be regarded as 'transcended' or 'perverted'. He just uses piles of
Stravinsky in his orchestrations.

Stravinsky might be the winner here: it should be very easy to find further
examples of mediocre composers doing the rhythmic thing Stravinsky refined,
or the use of wind instruments in small orchestras.

btw saxophone player Joshua Redman got stuck at the 'c' in his
alphabetically ordered jazz record collection. His cd 'Beyond' doesn't even
try to go beyond Coltrane. Redman became *so* Coltrane, it's almost scary.
And useless.

Regards, Remco Takken


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:12:44 -0500
From: "Duke Wong" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's Pants

Personally I have seen the following colored cargo motifs worn by Mr. Zorn:

green, gray-white, red, yellow-green, blue

When asked how many pairs of such pants he owns, I believe the answer was
around 10. I guess the man likes his cargo camos.

Let's see which ones he'll don for tomorrow night's show. My bet's on the
yellow ones.

- -- Duke

np: Roberto Juan Rodriguez, El Danzon de Moises


- ------------------------------
Second (and a trivial
matter I might add) is that I first saw John Zorn live about 2 years
ago.Hewas wearing camouflage pants.  In the next 8 or so times I saw him, he
had the same pants on.  About a year ago, I saw a picture of him in the NY
Times and he had the pants on again.  I just looked at the pics on the
website recommended of the Naked City live from 1990.  Guess what?  He is
wearing thepants.
- ------------------------------


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 12:30:01 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs

Remco,
   In a private email to Zach, which I never got 'round to sending, I was
going to ask him if he was talking about Redman and/or James Carter.  Henry
also made that record with Spooky Tooth, so I guess he really wanted to rock.
   OK, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I'm going to stick my
digital foot in my virtual mouth and ask:  is jazz a dead language at this
point, or can we really look forward to major formal innovations in the
future?  Of course it's hard to predict if or when someone will invent the
next dead horse, but even the hot young players aren't really doing much
that would have been new in 1982, much less now.  The lines between
European free improv and American free jazz are growing blurrier, and
forays into electronics/turntable action are more common, and previously
untouched ethnic musics are crossbred with jazz, and that's about it.
   I'll be preparing my foxhole.

- -Selvig



At 07:53 PM 2/6/02 +0100, Remco Takken wrote:
>I was just curious
> > about concrete examples because you sound like you're coming from more of
>a
> > jazz/improv/experimental direction, and while I find it easy to think of
> > rock ripoffs, it's a little tougher with the Highbrow Stuff.
>What about a 'highbrow guy' trying to be Frank Zappa? Pierre Henry once made
>a hopeless sixties album called Messe pour les temps present. He really
>tries to keep up with psychedelica by using the riff of Louie Louie in his
>score. Ouch.
>
>It's just as embarassing as seeing Mick Jagger discussing the problems of
>the world with the bishop of Canterbury. At least one of them must have had
>a really bad advisor.
>------------
>Dutch composer Louis Andriessen would be utterly cool if he would stop
>trying to be fucking Stravinsky all the time. Although Andriessen built a
>sound world of his own, the fandom towards Stravinsky is just too obvious to
>be regarded as 'transcended' or 'perverted'. He just uses piles of
>Stravinsky in his orchestrations.
>
>Stravinsky might be the winner here: it should be very easy to find further
>examples of mediocre composers doing the rhythmic thing Stravinsky refined,
>or the use of wind instruments in small orchestras.
>
>btw saxophone player Joshua Redman got stuck at the 'c' in his
>alphabetically ordered jazz record collection. His cd 'Beyond' doesn't even
>try to go beyond Coltrane. Redman became *so* Coltrane, it's almost scary.
>And useless.
>
>Regards, Remco Takken

Chris Selvig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 20:34:03 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: downtown related items on ebay

sorry for the ad. i have a couple items that might be of interest up on
ebay.

'out of their mouths M2K' item#1511504554
double disc post-punk comp on atavistic from 1996, w/teenage jesus and the
jerks, crescent, mars, chrome cranks, the scissor girls, the dream
syndicate, eleventh dream day, wynn/rizzo/bean/gay, tigerlilies, wolverton
brothers, mx-80, antimuro, theoretical girls, lydia lunch, e.a.r., blastula,
wharton tiers, glenn branca, lydia lunch, thurston moore, elliott sharp's
carbon, bruce anderson, gerry miles & alan licht, the vnadermark five, raeo,
nrg ensemble, gordy horn infusion, lee ranaldo. full color front and back
art show only slight wear. discs in perfect condition

sean lennon - half horse, half musician item #1511449961
promo-only 7-song cd by sean lennon, includes 2 remixes from 'into the sun.'
full color front and back art. tracks are: queue (radio mix), spaceship
(radio mix), dream, heart & lung (texas motel version), 5/8, pyramid,
happiness (on the bus version). produced by sean and cibo matto's yuka
honda. w/mito hatori, john medeski, timo ellis, greg ribot, smokey hormel,
duma love, japa keenan, kenny wollensen, brad jones, ej rodriguez, kenny
wollensen.




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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:20:02 -0800
From: "John Schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Old School

1994. http://expage.com/mypageistoogay

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:22:26 -0500
From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn as Miles????????

Marcin wrote

"You are IMO wrong. JZ plays the role now Miles played in the 60's an early
'70s. He organizes musicians, finds the, shows somehow the way. Many leading
musicians (see douglas and frisell, for example) have been influenced by him
very strongly. We'd have had loads of good musicians - ornette, ayler,
dolphy - had Miles not been there, but he was surely central.
FWIW, I can  hardly anyone else producieng piececes that would be comparable
in importance with godard, spillane, troture garden, or absinthe."

Uh, oh.  I hope you aren't serious here.  I like what JZ has done, and take
nothing away from what he has accomplished.  But...First, Frisell, as with
many of the musicians associated with JZ, was around for quite some time
before falling in with NC.  He certainly didn't "find" Frisell, as say Miles
found 17 year old Tony Williams.  I don't hear the musical influence on
Douglas, Frisell, as say Miles had on Weather Report, Lifetime, Mahavishnu,
and countless others. JZ has thrown many projects against the wall, some
hit, some miss.  Miles concentrated only on his own projects, rarely if ever
getting involved in anything else.  Just being around Miles seemed to
inspire his sidemen.  I recently read that Sonny Sharrock, though he only
spent one day with Miles in the studio, was profoundly influenced by the
experience.  He said that Miles never really communicated in verbal terms
exactly what he wanted.  Yet he had a way of touching each musician.  Dave
Holland said he learned more about music riding in the car with Miles after
flying in from the UK than he had ever known before.  Miles had an uncanny
knack for choosing the right people for his music, and the right music for
his people.  Is there among JZ people a Coltrane, Shorter, Corea, Hancock,
Carter, McLaughlin, DeJohnette, Jarrett, etc etc?  From his early days with
Parker until (IMHO) about 1973 Miles produced one masterwork after another,
most of which have stood the test of time.  I don't think we've yet gotten
or can expect a Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew, Silent Way, Sketches of Spain,
Milestones or anything close out of JZ, but who's looking.  As far as
finding and organizing, how about Uri Caine and Bobby Previte, to name two.
They have both produced very diversified projects utilizing many of the same
musicians as JZ.  And again IMHO, both have produced music every bit as
important as JZ.  Neither has achieved the "cult" status that JZ seems to
have at this point.  This is not meant to compare or take anything away from
JZ.  Just think the Miles comparison is a bit off.

Alan Kayser













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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 22:44:01 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tori Amos, indeed: Highbrow ripp-offs

>    OK, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I'm going to stick my
> digital foot in my virtual mouth and ask:  is jazz a dead language at this
> point, or can we really look forward to major formal innovations in the
> future?  Of course it's hard to predict if or when someone will invent the
> next dead horse, but even the hot young players aren't really doing much
> that would have been new in 1982, much less now.  The lines between

I have the fear that most of the really important innovations from appr 1970
on, appear in almost total and complete obscurity. Also, don't let yourself
become impressed by all the re-writing of jazz history. Who wants to
remember that most of the early repertoire of Duke ellington's band
consisted of waltzes? There are no records of this (it is no jazz), but this
big band would have been out of work within the year, if they only played
the stuff that we now see shine so clearly. Times were blurred then, too,
just like they are now.

Joshua Redman, James Carter and other 'superstars' (that aren't known in the
way Dizzy or Louis or Miles were known) just aren't the guys to check out
right now. I try to stay away of screaming out who's the greatest in this
present time, but i dont' think it was that clear in, say, 1959.

Maybe Prestige, Blue Note, Riverside were what Between the Lines, TryTone,
Tzadik and Erstwhile are now. Remember, there were many days Coltrane played
for 15 people, even (and especially) in the sixties. Jazzmammoth bassplayer
Ray Brown (now 75) once put it like this: Jazz has always been this big.
Media attention wasn't that great in the old days.

If you try to generalise modern jazz by reducing it to Joshua Redman and
James Carter in order to make a point, you will lose your point just as easy
by overlooking the niches where great art always have been created. Herbie
Nichols, and even Thelonious Monk weren't that big back in their golden
days.

Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:35:04 -0800 (PST)
From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: cibo matto recs

hello, I am interested in exploring the various works of cibo matto,
any suggestions for the essential[s]?

you can respond privately or to the list if you feel its valid.

J

__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:05:43 -0800
From: crymad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Independent Groups

"Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)" wrote:
>  This
> school payed $10,000 for a Dick Hyman (yes that's his name) solo concert.
> (He was involved in the sdtk for Woody Allen's RADIODAYS -- I think....)

Dick Hyman also released two of the earliest moog albums, THE ELECTRIC
ECLECTICS OF DICK HYMAN and MOOG PIECES.  Some that music was quite
adventurous for the time.  In fact, it would probably even make most
modern-day shoppers a little uneasy if played in today's supermarkets.

- --crymad

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:32:12 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn as Miles????????

Hi,

Alan wrote:

Is there among JZ people a Coltrane, Shorter, Corea, Hancock,
> Carter, McLaughlin, DeJohnette, Jarrett, etc etc?  From his early days
with
> Parker until (IMHO) about 1973 Miles produced one masterwork after
another,
> most of which have stood the test of time.

Maybe not a Coltrane, but certainly JZ has gathered a superb group of
collaborators around him: Frith, Ribot, Baron, Rothenberg, A. Coleman,
Douglas, Cohen, ... and the list could go on forever. I think the skills of
these musicians are undeniable (either you like them or not). If we add to
that the fact that some of them are also superb composers, I think your
statement is a bit too Miles-friendly or perhaps nostalgic.


 I don't think we've yet gotten
> or can expect a Kind of Blue, Bitches Brew, Silent Way, Sketches of Spain,
> Milestones or anything close out of JZ, but who's looking.

We haven't? It depends on your personal taste, but "Spillane" or "Elegy"
mean much more to me than any of the records you mention. I understand they
are important for many people, and going against Miles has "come rather
expensive" to me, so to speak. Maybe my age prevents me from enjoying those
titles in all their supposed immensity, but IMHO, Miles had his time, and
now's the time for something else. Of course, I don't expect anyone of any
future generations to produce another "Spillane", because it's supposed to
be unique. And, of course, I also look back when purchasing or just
listening to music, but your comments seem to me a little "anchored in the
past" .


 As far as
> finding and organizing, how about Uri Caine and Bobby Previte, to name
two.
> They have both produced very diversified projects utilizing many of the
same
> musicians as JZ.  And again IMHO, both have produced music every bit as
> important as JZ.

I don't know about Uri Caine, because I haven't heard too many of his works,
but putting Previte at the same level as Zorn seems quite exaggerated. Maybe
I missed something, but I find him just a great drummer with a
immediately-recognizable sound. However I have strong doubts about his
compositional competence.

Neither has achieved the "cult" status that JZ seems to
> have at this point.  This is not meant to compare or take anything away
from
> JZ.  Just think the Miles comparison is a bit off.
> Alan Kayser

Sure, Alan, absolutely off!!. Just an opinion.


Best,

EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Susie Ibarra Trio "Songbird Suite" (Tzadik)





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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:42:17 -0400
From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: manchester with previte

hey - I will be in Manchester from Feb 14-21 - anyone know of any good
concerts/things going on during this time?

Also, I'm enjoying the new Bobby Previte on Tzadik ssooooooooo much, but have
heard luke-warm reviews for his other new album on Palmetto with the 'Bump the
Renisance' group.  This surprises me, first because I've loved almost all of
his albums and because the original bump the renisance album (and group) as
well as his other early release 'pushing the envelope' were both so fantastic.
Can any one on the list comment about the new one?  Finally, I'm pretty sure
I've spelt renisance wronge but I'm too lasy to shuffle over to my CD rack and
check on correct spelling................

w.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 15:03:22 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: the new miles's

More in jazz than in any other genre, it seems that there's a need to feel
that the phaseology of jazz is a repeating timeline, so that certain figures
may be called the new Tranne, the new Bird, whatever.

It does no justice to anyone.  Calling Ornette Coleman the "new Bird" did no
service, because the two guys emerged on their respective scenes each with
such different equipment than the other, and the effect Bird had was more to
convert already-active players to a new pallette that organically extended
the old one, whereas the effect Ornette seemed more to be to establish a
different community of players as a means to break clean from the old
pallette.

But many people wrote that Ornette Coleman was the new Bird, which served
mostly to draw battle lines between those who embraced Ornette and those who
dismissed him.

There are a great many things Zorn and Miles Davis share in common.  While
Miles did not "discover" Cannonball Adderley or Bill Evans for instance,
they did go through his group and were changed drastically for having done
so.  But Zorn's methods of leading groups, and even his manifest need to
mount different ensembles for different bodies of work is unlike Miles.  And
those things are so much of what makes Zorn Zorn.

(One could make a farily substantial argument for Don Byron Plays Mickey
Katz as the 1990's analog to the 1960s Miles quintet, in terms of who came
out of it and the relative importance of their subsequent work -- Dave
Douglas, Uri Caine, John Roseman, Mark Feldman, and Mark Dresser.)

The situations under which jazz is played, recorded, and presented have
changed so drastically between 1961 and 1991 that the need to call someone
"the [insert name] of the 1990's" is at best a slippery slope.  And the same
could be said of 1941 and 1961.

Any strong leader who has a specific musical vision -- Miles, Mingus, Zorn,
Prince, Raymond Scott, Zappa -- is going to share things in common with
other strong musical leaders posessed of specific musical vision.  But that
doesn't mean that they mirror each other.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #754
*******************************


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