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Zorn List Digest       Monday, February 4 2002       Volume 03 : Number 742



In this issue:
-
       Re: Fwd: re: Bjork
       Re: Fwd: re: Bjork
       =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Bj=F6rk_=28was:_Re:_new_to_the_list=29?=
       Tori Amos, indeed
       RE: Fwd: re: Bjork
       Re: Susie Ibarra Trio?
       Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide
       Last Plane to Jakarta
       RE: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)
       Re: bjork, extended vocal technique, female singers.  non-zc.
       Re: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)
       RE: Tori Amos, indeed
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers
       Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:21:00 -0600
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: re: Bjork

Efr=E9n del Valle([e-mail])@Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:16:53PM +0100=
:
> WEll, I'm loving Radiohead's "OK Computer" but still
> hate Bj=F6rk! I don't see any similarities between them.
> What I think is that Bj=F6rk's voice has a strong
> personality and there's no mid-point. You love her or
> or you hate her.=20

Well, the same can be said about Radiohead... I was encouraged by all the=
=20
press they got extolling their electronica 'crossover', and ended up just=
=20
being really bored with it.

m
http://craque.net


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:41:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: re: Bjork

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:21:00 -0600  Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
>
> EfrΘn del Valle([e-mail])@Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:16:53PM +0100:
> > WEll, I'm loving Radiohead's "OK Computer" but still
> > hate Bj÷rk! I don't see any similarities between them.
> > What I think is that Bj÷rk's voice has a strong
> > personality and there's no mid-point. You love her or
> > or you hate her.
>
> Well, the same can be said about Radiohead... I was encouraged by all the
> press they got extolling their electronica 'crossover', and ended up just
> being really bored with it.

OK, I am not the only one (although I think that Radiohead is pure genius
compared to the Strokes; could I miss the lyrics?).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:37:47 +0100
From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Bj=F6rk_=28was:_Re:_new_to_the_list=29?=

> Great Jan. That sounds really good!! And what about  Spanish women?? :-)
>
> Best,
>
> EfrΘn


Yeah, Dulcinea and Maya.
Jan Luyben


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:02:59 -0800
From: Chris Selvig <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tori Amos, indeed

Was I hallucinating, or did I actually see someone appear to defend Tori
Amos on the grounds that she is making more money than her former music
professor?  I usually hear this argument as a defense of some high-gloss
halfwits like Bon Jovi - "Well, they make more money than Muddy Waters ever
did."  Did you forget to use an emoticon to remind us that you were joking,
or do you honestly equate sales figures with aesthetic quality?

Chris Selvig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:06:27 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: re: Bjork

=20
Efr=E9n wrote:
>[clip]...there's no mid-point. You love her or
> or you hate her.=20

m wrote:
>>Well, the same can be said about Radiohead...=20

I'm rather neutral on both.  I liked Ok Computer the first four or so =
times
I listened to it but now I can't really listen anymore.  KidA+B both =
lost
interest by the third listen.

As for Bjork I've only heard her music when fans put it on for me and =
I'm ok
with it...it's better than a lot of other stuff one could put on.  For =
me I
have a similar reaction listening to Stereolab, ie: this is ok but I =
can't
seem to make it through an entire album without getting a bit bored.  =
Still,
that doesn't mean I hate her.

I know we've had the "expanding pop music and public awareness" blah =
blah
about Radiohead and perhaps the same can be said for Bjork...I think =
this is
a valid statement about both groups.

an aside:  Bjork walked into other music in NY where my friend (and =
former
15 yr old list member) was working.  She asked him to help her find =
INA-GRM
or comparable music...
better than Michael Stipe who simply sent a representative to ask for
"recommendations on his behalf"

Matt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 06:23:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Arthur <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Susie Ibarra Trio?

I saw Susie Ibarra trio at Tonic last weekend.  I
would definitely recommend the live show.  I will
probably go again, but I am not committed to owning
her CD just yet.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:21:18 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide

Has anyone out there heard this or can you give other recommendations =
of
starting points for Butch Morris?


Lawrence D "Butch" Morris/ORT-Orchestra della Toscana:
Holy Sea: Conductions 57, 58, 59
(Splasc(h) 802803)
J A Deane, live sampling, drum machine, trombone, electronics =B7 =
Riccardo
Fassi, piano =B7 Lawrence "Butch" Morris, conductor =B7 ORT-Orchestra =
della
Toscana, ensemble =B7 Otomo Yoshihide, turntables, sampling, =
electronics=20
Conduction Number 57: Holy Sea, Shopping =B7 57E1 =B7 57 =B7 57E2 =B7 =
Conduction
Number 58: Holy Sea, Marble Dust =B7 58E1 =B7 58E2 =B7 58E3 =B7 =
Conduction Number
58: Holy Sea, Marble Dust =B7 58 =B7 Conduction Number 59: Holy Sea, =
(The)
Devil's Music =B7 59E2=20

Thanks, =20
Matt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:20:42 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Last Plane to Jakarta

Hi all:

Just wanted to throw out an unprompted plug for one of my favorite web
discoveries, Last Plane to Jakarta. It's a small operation run by writer
John Darnielle, located at www.lastplanetojakarta.com. Used to be a paper
fanzine, I understand. Its pleasures are many, including cool (and
browser-friendly) graphics, innovative layouts, and some pretty diverse and
wacky links. Still, its primary pleasures are definitely to be derived from
John's enthusiastic and informed coverage of pop music. He's into indie
stuff for the most part - I discovered Propagandhi through him - and no one
out there writes more enthusiastically, intelligently and convincingly about
death metal, either - that's where I found Kataklysm, and his coverage of
Chuck Schuldiner's passing was heartbreaking. He's also reviewed Radiohead's
'Amnesiac' track by track over the last several months, and even if you
don't like the band, you must admire the deapth of thought he's devoted to
it. It's quirky and personable, exactly as the web should be.

The site is updated every Sunday night and is always worth the time it takes
to read. Check it out.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Psyco on Da Bus, "Time to Take a Rest Suite, Part II," 'Psyco on Da
Bus' (PGI)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:32:00 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide

I haven't heard 'Holy Sea' as an offical "finished" CD, but Butch sent me
cassettes of the music a long time ago, before he found a home for the
project (he was hoping Koch would consider it). I remember being impressed,
but it doesn't seem like the best starting point, though it's received great
reviews. The orchestra manages Butch's musical intentions well, it seems,
but I think it might be easier to start with one of his smaller projects for
improvisers and then work out from there.

I've got a lot of Butch stuff (including the New World box set), but the one
disc I come back to more than any other is one my pal Vince Kargatis gave me
long ago, 'Homeing.' It's got a fine group (J.A. Deane, Vincent Chancey,
Shelley Hirsch, David Weinstein, Jason Hwang, Pierre Dorge and others), and
its demanding stretches are leavened with a truly gorgeous, heavenly
recurring melody. Vince once told me it was some of his favorite music to go
to sleep by, and he didn't mean it as an insult. It's on Sound Aspects and
could be a bit tough to find at the moment, but it's sooooo worth it.

My last CD just ended... think I'm going to put 'Homeing' on right now.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Matthew W
Wirzbicki (S)
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 3:21 PM
To: '[e-mail]'
Subject: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide



Has anyone out there heard this or can you give other recommendations of
starting points for Butch Morris?


Lawrence D "Butch" Morris/ORT-Orchestra della Toscana:
Holy Sea: Conductions 57, 58, 59
(Splasc(h) 802803)
J A Deane, live sampling, drum machine, trombone, electronics ╖ Riccardo
Fassi, piano ╖ Lawrence "Butch" Morris, conductor ╖ ORT-Orchestra della
Toscana, ensemble ╖ Otomo Yoshihide, turntables, sampling, electronics
Conduction Number 57: Holy Sea, Shopping ╖ 57E1 ╖ 57 ╖ 57E2 ╖ Conduction
Number 58: Holy Sea, Marble Dust ╖ 58E1 ╖ 58E2 ╖ 58E3 ╖ Conduction Number
58: Holy Sea, Marble Dust ╖ 58 ╖ Conduction Number 59: Holy Sea, (The)
Devil's Music ╖ 59E2

Thanks,
Matt


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 21:45:35 +0100
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)

Ajda the Turkish Queen wrote:

> Personally, I do like some of Bjork's stuff.  And to the non-believers out
> there, I ask whether you've heard her album "Telegram"???  The string
> arrangements are glorious, and I might point out she did them herself.  So
> in her case, it's not necessary the 'production team' that deserves the
> credit.
>
> Frankly, I'm surprised to hear so many people on this list express dislike
> for her.  She has more of an obvious jazz influence in her sound than most
> pop stars...

Well - I used to be heavily into the Sugarcubes, and also I do like some of
Bj÷rk's music; it's just her singing I can't put up with anymore. To me, it's
just "one-dimensional"...; it always sounds exactly the same to me...

patRice

np: sfa
nr: Horiyoshi III, 108 Heroes of the Suikoden


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:42:09 -0800
From: "Rev. Freud Hairs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bjork, extended vocal technique, female singers.  non-zc.

Extended Vocal Technique
TDWR:
http://members.aol.com/ninewinds/BIOS/barnett.html


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:44:45 -0800
From: "Rev. Freud Hairs" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Butch Morris w/J.A. Deane + Otomo Yoshihide

Dust To Dust by Butch Morris is one of my most repeated listens.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:45:44 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

Matthew Ross Davis Wrote:
Some notes on Bjork, Madonna and PJ Harvey...
>>
perfect > sense in their artistic ability and courage as women who are
actually creative > spirits and respectful artists in an entertainment
industry that churns out > such great women role models as Britney Spears.

And Patrice Wrote, (on Radiohead):
OK, I am not the only one (although I think that Radiohead is pure genius
compared to the Strokes; could I miss the lyrics?).

Ben Wrote:
Now you may legitimately ask: what's so great about being "sonically
adventurous" if we can listen to any Tzadik release and get our thrills that
way?

Remco Writes:
Right, I feel Ben's point very urgently. To me the above arguments equal the
giving of star ratings to different styles of crap. So Madonna, PJ and
Radiohead get high rates in crap industry? Interesting? As soon as you need
Britney Spears or the Strokes in order to make your point, there must be
*something* wrong, huh?

Regards, Remco

ps
Zach wrote (on a classical guitar player with a degree):
I just think that he was bitter because he is poor with his Peabody
degree in classical guitar, but Tori is rolling in money without.
>>>>
Poor bastard. He doesn't realise there are many many poor Tori Amoses out
there. Only one of'em made it, just like there's only one John Williams who
made it big time (parallelling Dr Bitter Peabody in having a classical
degree). Besides: every hard working butcher or plumber earns a lot more
than a classical music teacher. The sad bugger sure did some bad thinking
before he went into conservatory. And it didn't get better over the years.
He bitter? Hah!

Remco (studied modern dutch literature, ouch! what was HE thinking at 18?:-)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:58:20 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)

From: "patRice" <[e-mail]>
> Bj÷rk's music; it's just her singing I can't put up with anymore. To me,
it's > just "one-dimensional"...; it always sounds exactly the same to me...
>
> patRice

Still, you might want to put up with *one* or *two* weak aspects in great
music. In Bjork's case I love the taped a cassette I made from MTV
Unplugged. The main stuff she does just sounds OK to me.

But what do I know, I vividly remember how it took me years to get into
Coltrane. I just heard a regular saxophone guy at first. A bit like, say,
Joshua Redman;-)

I am completely unaware of Bjorks influence on techno and dance, like I
missed Coltrane's influence on later jazz, back when I thought his playing
was pretty normal.

Regards, Remco

np: Billy Preston/ Billy's Bag (on some cheap cd with similar Preston tunes)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:48:01 -0500
From: "Zachary Steiner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Tori Amos, indeed

I don't equate money to success as an artist or quality of work in any
way.  Is Brittany Spears better than all of the artists discussed on
this list because she pulls in millions or even because more people
listen to her albums? I think not.  In my Tori Amos post I was more
commenting on the bitterness of less successful (monetarily) musicians
towards those who are more successful.  I believe that artists should be
content with artistic success whether it produces material success or
not.  I would imagine that some one who chooses jazz, classical, or
experimental styles for artistic expression that they don't anticipate
to be as rich as Brittany.  I couldn't see Zorn shakin' his thang in a
Pepsi ad (though it could be interesting).

I have a problem with "rip-offs."  A situation where a inferior group
gets rich or famous by merely imitating another group (normally poorly)
that it claims as an influence.  I do believe that people deserve
respect and/or notoriety for their innovations and creativity.  Though,
there is something to be said for a group that can translate a
pre-existing style to be understood by the masses, that's a talent in
and of itself.  Not every one can be entertaining, just as not every one
can possess perfect technique. Though I don't know how I would feel if a
group that I have affection for (i.e. Mr. Bungle) was being
"ripped-off."

Zach



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:42:09 -0600
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

Remco Takken([e-mail])@Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 10:45:44PM +0100:
> Ben Wrote:
> Now you may legitimately ask: what's so great about being "sonically
> adventurous" if we can listen to any Tzadik release and get our thrills that
> way?
>
> Remco Writes:
> Right, I feel Ben's point very urgently. To me the above arguments equal the
> giving of star ratings to different styles of crap. So Madonna, PJ and
> Radiohead get high rates in crap industry? Interesting? As soon as you need
> Britney Spears or the Strokes in order to make your point, there must be
> *something* wrong, huh?

Because it has everything to do with the style in which these artists choose to
work. It's not a matter of "who can be more adventurous than the next" or
just being so over the top that you can't stand to listen to good music in a
different style than something besides skronk or japanese noise bands, so you
have to listen to Tzadik releases and nothing else.

Bjork and Madonna and PJ Harvey all work within very very specific idioms
of music, and they all have varying degrees of musicality and artistic
creativity. But you cannot expect them to work within a popular idiom and
completely alienate their audience.

And just to genericize my argument, look at Autechre. Yes, many folks on the
Zorn list probably prefer their latest outings into experimental electronica to
earlier works, but a good majority of their fan base think they went way
downhill.

The point is that you cannot categorically dismiss the work of a good artist
because they choose to work within a medium that you don't like (or worse,
don't understand and therefore shun).

m
http://craque.net


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:54:37 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving, Plus: Peabody degree losers

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:45:44 +0100  "Remco Takken" wrote:
>
> Remco Writes:
> Right, I feel Ben's point very urgently. To me the above arguments equal the
> giving of star ratings to different styles of crap. So Madonna, PJ and
> Radiohead get high rates in crap industry? Interesting? As soon as you need
> Britney Spears or the Strokes in order to make your point, there must be
> *something* wrong, huh?

Britney Spears is at the top in a category with a lot of contenders and very
few elected. She does not do everything (like unloading the trucks, tune the
guitars, write the songs, etc), but the big boss at Ford does not put all the
screws on every car that leaves the plant... You see what I mean: she is the
top of the iceberg of a very popular act, the equivalent of a heavy industry.
Judging her with the criteria that you apply to experimental/improv/etc does
not make any sense. She is in a different league. You might not like what she
does, but to be where she is, she definitely have something.

Also, please don't make successfull people responsible for the obscurity of
the others. Even if the fame of Britney Spears collapses tomorrow, I doubt
that this will help Pauline Oliveros to make the top ten.

    Patrice (who does not even know Britney Spears's songs...).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:57:40 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bjork ranting+raving (No Zorn Content)

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 22:58:20 +0100  "Remco Takken" wrote:
>
> I am completely unaware of Bjorks influence on techno and dance, like I
> missed Coltrane's influence on later jazz, back when I thought his playing
> was pretty normal.

I always had the feeling that Bjork was like Gainsbourg, keeping her ears
opened to jump on the new trends. She more a catalyst to me (and we need
artists like that).

    Patrice:

PS: PARADISO: PJ Harvey

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #742
*******************************


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