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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 28 2002       Volume 03 : Number 716



In this issue:
-
       godel, escher, bach, xenakis.  non-zc.
       Re: breaking the silence.
       Re: breaking the silence.
       Re: Mr. Smith
       Re: Mr. Smith
       RE: rush and synths.
       Re: godel, escher, bach, xenakis. non-zc.
       Re: breaking the silence.
       John Luther Adams query
       Re: Trembling Before G-d on NPR NOW!
       Re: The Gift (actual Zorn content)
       Re: breaking the silence.
       Re: The Gift (actual Zorn content)
       Canavarro + Drumm/Wehowsky (Was: lots of questions.)
       Zorn / Douglas (was: Re: The Gift)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:54:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: godel, escher, bach, xenakis.  non-zc.

In a message dated 01.28.02 14:22:02, [e-mail] writes:

>the disc i've heard is subtitled "Les Percussions de Strasbourg"
>and so fits the category you speak of. quite amazing... where do you know
>Godel from? my brother is a mathematician (well, still studying to end
>graduation) and was the one who first spoke of him to me. very interesting
>u speak of him :).

well, i'm reading godel, escher, bach, the eternal golden braid, for the
third time, and i'm using godel's incompleteness theorem in a very
complicated piece involving recursion and reflexion, for solo viola with
possible accompaniment in supercollider.  the idea is to combine 4 reflexive
and/or recursive items  - the recursive equation for the julia/mandlebrot
set, godel's incompleteness theorem, the reflexive phrase "i would prefer not
to" from herman mehlville's "bartleby the scrivener", and platypi.  it's a
complicated concept at best, a total disaster at worst.

that is the percussion CD i was thinking of.  thanks for providing the title.

man i love math.  mathmathmathmathmath.



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:58:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: breaking the silence.

In a message dated 01.28.02 13:59:19, [e-mail] writes:

>By the way K8...you had posted that the term "free jazz" was just an
>uppity term to be used by college kids who wanted to give meaning to their
>pointless noise creations...hmm...can the same be said about "performance
>art" on a....list of all places??

dear lord almighty, some people are denser than the former rainforests in
south america.  i will rehash for the final time that i think that free jazz
is a crappy name for stuff, but since it is a common occurence here, i
thought it was a valid thing to relate "performance art" to - performance art
in my eyes is basically free movement/speech/whatever with random content.
it can be serious and good (very rarely) serious and bad (very often), and
silly and neutral (mine).  it's all bullshit.  too serious.  if you want
serious go listen to some gorecki orchestral work <which i love> or some arvo
part <which i also love> but don't try to derive deep and serious meaning
from performance art <usually> or avant-garde <almost always>.  i hate that i
have to disclaimer almost every statement i make now for "fear" that someone
will misconstrue it and try to take up an argument about it.  but i'm not
explaining one more goddamned time!

love,
  k8.

and if you can't laugh at this post, please don't bother to tell me what a
twit i am.  shall i pass around the salt shaker for everyone?



- -----
[ .n o t h i n g  i s  w h a t  i s  s a i d. ]

.k a t e  p e t e r s o n.
.c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r.
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html">
http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A>
(roundtable)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:05:48 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breaking the silence.

> From: [e-mail]

>i think that free jazz  is a crappy name for stuff

I always thought so too.  "Free jazz" has as many behavioral norms built
into its standards and practices as be-bop.  And you'll reflect that, at its
outset, be-bop was the music of liberation.  I prefer the term Joey Baron
uses -- "non-symmetrical music".

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:22:47 -0500
From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith

Hello,
     ....just wanted to say that I'm glad Steve has decided to stick with
us, because his posts were/are some of the most reliably interesting on the
list. I live in a city were I know more about u-ground/avant
music/lit/art/etc. than the vast majority of the population, so I value the
Zorn-list as a place where I know less than the majority of members. It
serves as an educational instrument, a reference tool, a consumer guide, and
one of my favorite sources of entertainment. One of the ways that I choose
to "Lighten Up" is to read exchanges on the merits of Ornette Coleman, to
occasionally post an opinion that I think adds to whatever is being
discussed, and to gather knowledge from such estimable heads as Steve Smith
(and Flannery and Waxman and Lang Thompson and both Patrices etc.) This
being said, I don't have a problem w/ anyone here, and don't want to see
anyone else leave, because I believe we all have interesting and valuable
information to share, and the bottom line is that I don't any of us would be
on this list if we didn't think that the sharing and cultivation of said
info wasn't a GREAT THING.
    Here's to hoping that we can get Jon back at some point...

    I remain...

    Joseph

    NP: V/A "Wanna Buy a Bridge?" LP- T.V. Personalities "Part Time Punks"
    NR: John Barth- "The Floating Opera"

"Every piece of created work is the tomb of its creator" William Gaddis


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:41 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Smith

> From: "josephneff" <[e-mail]>

> NP: V/A "Wanna Buy a Bridge?" LP- T.V. Personalities "Part Time Punks"

This on CD? It was such a staple of my errant youth.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:16:01 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: rush and synths.

Quote of the day here...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:49 PM

ezra buchla was a friend of mine at oberlin.  i once asked him what the
worst
part about his dad having invented the buchla synth was and he replied,

"i can never listen to Yes again."


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:26:35 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: godel, escher, bach, xenakis. non-zc.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:54:20 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> well, i'm reading godel, escher, bach, the eternal golden braid, for the
> third time, and i'm using godel's incompleteness theorem in a very
> complicated piece involving recursion and reflexion, for solo viola with
> possible accompaniment in supercollider.  the idea is to combine 4 reflexive
> and/or recursive items  - the recursive equation for the julia/mandlebrot
> set, godel's incompleteness theorem, the reflexive phrase "i would prefer not
> to" from herman mehlville's "bartleby the scrivener", and platypi.  it's a
> complicated concept at best, a total disaster at worst.

This list is really going down... Now I understand why Godel would be sorry.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:32:18 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breaking the silence.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:05:48 -0800  Skip Heller wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: [e-mail]
>
> >i think that free jazz  is a crappy name for stuff
>
> I always thought so too.  "Free jazz" has as many behavioral norms built
> into its standards and practices as be-bop.  And you'll reflect that, at its

That's easy to say more than thirty years after the facts... When you read
how people reacted to the music, the expression is not so stupid. And don't
you agree that the spirit of the music was really to free up people (not
to mention all the political baggage this music was associated to)?

> outset, be-bop was the music of liberation.  I prefer the term Joey Baron
> uses -- "non-symmetrical music".

Anyway, "Free Jazz" is here to stay and your proposal for replacement is,
I think, quite clumsy and likely to raise even more polemics that the
current one.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:41:20 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: John Luther Adams query

Hi,

I've recently received a couple of CDRs of recent pieces by Adams for
use on Mappings and haven't heard back from him in response to some
questions I had about ensemble size, personnel etc.

Is there anyone out there who knows about his work and/or might have
seen performances of either  Strange & Sacred Noise and/or In the
White Silence, who could provide some details.

Thanks in advance.

Bests,

Herb

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:56:33 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Trembling Before G-d on NPR NOW!

Just to point out, Fresh Air is taped, I think, so it may be on later in the
day where you live if you didn't catch it at noon.  I think it's on at 7
here (Western MA and Conn.).

- -Jesse

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 12:05 PM
Subject: Trembling Before G-d on NPR NOW!


> All:
>
> "Fresh Air" is at this moment airing a show on "Trembling Before G-d."
Zorn
> is not on the panel of speakers.
>
> Tom
>
> -
>
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:05:23 -0800
From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The Gift (actual Zorn content)

Some people have been talking about nice entry points into Zorn's
(composing?...sorry I wasn't paying close attention) works.  I am a big fan
of Zorn's work because of his saxophone (and was inspired to pick that
instrument up because of Zorn, not Coltrane, Parker, or any of the other
greats) and as such, don't enjoy the discs that he doesn't play on as much.

I've read some comments on this list in the past that suggested that Zorn's
sax chops were limited, relatively speaking.  Would anyone care to comment
on this as I'm still too novice to begin critiquing his sax?
In Masada, I've always enjoyed Zorn's sax while finding Douglas' trumpet
too...pedestrian for lack of a better word (well, except for the Live at
Tonic disc).

- --davy, who's read similiar comments about Tim Berne in a review of Shell
Game (I can dig this up if anyone's interested)...is it a case of "Jazz Snob
Eat Shit"?

p.s. re: dumbing down...intellectualism has its good points and its bad
ones--no one's suggesting dumbing down but have you ever seen two
intellectuals analyze circles around one another for days?  I've been guilty
of being overly-analytical (though not on this list...sometimes you have to
know when you're out of your league) and it's usually not pretty.

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:11:14 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: breaking the silence.

> From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:32:18 -0800
> To: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail],
> [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: breaking the silence.
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:05:48 -0800  Skip Heller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: [e-mail]
>>
>>> i think that free jazz  is a crappy name for stuff
>>
>> I always thought so too.  "Free jazz" has as many behavioral norms built
>> into its standards and practices as be-bop.  And you'll reflect that, at its
>
> That's easy to say more than thirty years after the facts... When you read
> how people reacted to the music, the expression is not so stupid. And don't
> you agree that the spirit of the music was really to free up people (not
> to mention all the political baggage this music was associated to)?

Except that I think "free" is a misnomer.  One of the reasons the first
Ornette quartet made the splash it did is because there was a system of
techniques in place, whether they be learned, theorized or spontaneously
formed.  Had they not, there would not have been any consistency to their
output.  If you go back to THIS IS OUR MUSIC or CHANGE OF THE CENTURY,
you'll notice there is a system of norms in place.  For instance, Ornette's
entrances to his solos -- when he is the first soloist -- usually take a
diminshed fifth kind of turn from whatever the key center of the head was.
That kind of intentional move is part of the statement "we're not playing in
any one key as much as all twelve of 'em".

My own personal view as to if the music was formed to "free people up" is as
follows -- I don't know Ornette had the same goals in mind as Cecil had the
same goals in mind as Sun Ra etc and would probably not speculate if or that
they did.  Their respective musics evolved in such different ways fr one
another.

I probably would have thought both things hearing the music when it came out
(which I couldn't as I was born in 1965).  But when I first came to the
music, I had no knowledge of its context in history, so my impressions of
the mechanics at first were based on what I was hearing.  Tunes like "Humpty
Dumpty" and "Ramblin'", as tunes, didn't sound all that removed fr the
mainstream to me, whereas the Sun Ra stuff did.  On the Ornette's on
Atlantic, the soloing was largely happening over a tracable pulse (ie
walking bass, jazz ride cymbal pattern).  It wasn't until Ornette came in
for the solo that a detectable harmonic sequence was jettisoned in favor of
a system where the soloist led the harmonic path, and even there, the solos
tended to occur in tracable phrases that don't sound all that alien to the
mainstream of the time -- which is probably why nobody ever argues over
whether or not what he's playing is jazz.

>> outset, be-bop was the music of liberation.  I prefer the term Joey Baron
>> uses -- "non-symmetrical music".
>
> Anyway, "Free Jazz" is here to stay and your proposal for replacement is,
> I think, quite clumsy and likely to raise even more polemics that the
> current one.

I agree that "free jazz" is the term of conventional choice and as such
should stay that way as people know what it means.  If you don't like the
other phrase, take it up with Joey Baron. I just feel it describes the
toolbox more precisely.

skip h

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:15:17 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The Gift (actual Zorn content)

> From: "D Dvb" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: The Gift (actual Zorn content)
>
> I've read some comments on this list in the past that suggested that Zorn's
> sax chops were limited, relatively speaking.  Would anyone care to comment
> on this as I'm still too novice to begin critiquing his sax?
> In Masada, I've always enjoyed Zorn's sax while finding Douglas' trumpet
> too...pedestrian for lack of a better word (well, except for the Live at
> Tonic disc).

He's pretty damn good.  His execution is at quite admirable, he reads well,
can play up-tempos fluently, has a really nice tone at will, and is always
in tune with the other ensemble players.  he could likely pass any
reasonable audition.  Plus he's a very imaginitive soloist.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Douglas, but I will grant you
that he can be more conservative on other people's records than on his own.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:14:06 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Canavarro + Drumm/Wehowsky (Was: lots of questions.)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: lots of questions.

> 2) Nuno Canavarro - the issue was the Jim O'Rourke cover and he mentioned
> this album and the magazine chimed in to label it portugese
> proto-electronica.

Yeah, this album is totally great.  Originally on a small Portuguese label,
I think, but O'Rourke reissued it on Moikai, remastered by Rafael Toral.
Not really "proto-electronica" via beats and stuff (at least that's what I
think of when I hear that term), it's more a precursor/forerunner/influence
to the kind of "warmer," less evenly rhythmic electronic work of people like
Nobukazu Takemura or especially the Mouse on Mars etc. Cologne scene.  Also,
a number of tracks include weird, semi-manipulated recordings of voices,
prompting a comparison to Robert Ashley's "Automatic Writing" somewhere.  In
any case, I'd recommend picking it up if you're a fan of the above, or B.
Fleishmann, or similar.  Even if my mom once told me, "Wow, this is really
nice.  It sounds like new age music. . ."

Actually, if anyone else has any more info on Canavarro, it'd be
appreciated.  Was he part of any kind of scene?  For some reason, I got the
sense that he might have some academic background, but I might've made that
up.

> 3) Susumu Yokota "Magic Thread".....anyone heard this?

I know very little, other than that I've seen many comparison to Nobukazu
Takemura.  I heard one track on one of the Wire tapper comps., and it was
pretty blah, if slightly catchy.

Also: Does anyone want to discuss the recent Wehowsky/Drumm disc?  I think I
said a while ago that I'd post a review, but I never felt like I'd really
listened to it enough to form a cogent opinion.  Not the kind of record you
can play at decent volume too often when you live with other people.  I did
find it a bit different than I expected though, with Wehowsky's
contributions (sound material-wise) seemingly mostly sine waves.  It was
arranged well, but I did find it a bit uncomfortably derivative of a lot of
recent sine-wave-tronica without really adding/critiquing too much.  But
like I said, that's based on not having listened enough (and it's packed
away right now).

- -Jesse



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:20:42 +0100
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn / Douglas (was: Re: The Gift)

D Dvb wrote:

> Some people have been talking about nice entry points into Zorn's
> (composing?...sorry I wasn't paying close attention) works.  I am a big fan
> of Zorn's work because of his saxophone (and was inspired to pick that
> instrument up because of Zorn, not Coltrane, Parker, or any of the other
> greats) and as such, don't enjoy the discs that he doesn't play on as much.

I like both things; the stuff he plays on and the stuff he doesn't play on.
I feel that especially the stuff where Marc Ribot is featured to be
outstandingly entertaining.
(I can't believe I actually had to miss out on Ribot's solo show last Friday in
Switzerland... :-( He got *very* good reviews. German-speaking/-reading
listmembers can probably find one of the reviews under "Kultur" on
www.tagesanzeiger.ch.)

> In Masada, I've always enjoyed Zorn's sax while finding Douglas' trumpet
> too...pedestrian for lack of a better word (well, except for the Live at
> Tonic disc).

I can't comment on Zorn's sax chops, but I do feel the same way as you about
the Masada thing.
I was at one point even thinking of recording some of my fave tracks into an
audio software and cutting out Douglas' parts... But by now I have grown to
like some of his contributions.

patRice

np: Drahdiwaberl, Werwolfromantik
nr: Horitaka, Bushido


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #716
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