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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #710 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Sunday, January 27 2002 Volume 03 : Number 710 In this issue: - Re: Crispell Re: Mooo Hoooo Handly... Butch Morris biz Re: Buy Dutch jazz now: while you still can Re: Butch Morris biz Zorn reviews Re: erstwhile Jon Re: Butch Morris biz ff's gravity and accidental Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) Re: Neu and personal affronts Re: Mooo Hoooo Handly... RE: Mooo Hoooo Handly... Re: Neu and personal affronts Personal affronts didn't anyone notice... (and info on performance pieces for listservs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:03:14 -0500 From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net> Subject: Re: Crispell on 02.01.26 4:14 PM, Rev. Floyd Errors at keithmar@msn.com wrote: >>>> Thanks to ANYONE who clips, copies, peruses, adores, resorts > to, and > otherwise spends time with my -ographies, > RL<<< > > Shit, thanks for the heads up. I just put a stop-payment on my > check. damn you. RL - ---------- [ All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k ] Sessionographies : CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies : COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN. Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN; HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag; ETC., - ---------- *** THINGS 4 SALE *** [Updated: 01.12.01] http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:13:01 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: Re: Mooo Hoooo Handly... - --part1_bf.1a58bb16.2984ae1d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/02 7:11:41 PM Central Standard Time, jeton@hotmail.com writes: > reaction whatsoever on this list could possibly constitute NOTORIETY. More > self-importance from someone claiming to decry it. Bite the poison apple, > baby, and don't ferget to do Efren's homework while you're at it! Mebbe > you'll both find something better to do, like buy some of Jonny's > records........... "'Typical!'" i prefer to bite the poison tangelo. ;) love, k8. - --part1_bf.1a58bb16.2984ae1d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML>In a message dated 1/26/02 7:11:41 PM Central Standard Time, jeton@hotmail.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">reaction whatsoever on this list could possibly constitute NOTORIETY. More self-importance from someone claiming to decry it. Bite the poison apple, baby, and don't ferget to do Efren's homework while you're at it! Mebbe you'll both find something better to do, like buy some of Jonny's records........... "'Typical!'"</BLOCKQUOTE> i prefer to bite the poison tangelo. ;) love, k8. </HTML> - --part1_bf.1a58bb16.2984ae1d_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:25:07 -0500 From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net> Subject: Butch Morris biz Just received a Butch Morris "Conduction Collection" CD on the NEW WORLD label. Disc has two tracks with William Parker I was unaware of (why in hell didn't anyone alert me to this?) and there's a sort of catalogue inside of maybe 9-10 *more* CDs in this collection. Does anyone have access to personnel on these? Does anyone know, in particular, if any of the others have any of my research subjects present? This has a release date of 1995-- can anyone out there imagine the deep horror I feel whenever I find out I've actually missed something??? It means that there could be... others. woe is me, and any assist appreciated, RL - ---------- [ All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k ] Sessionographies : CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE. Discographies : COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN. Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN; HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag; ETC., - ---------- *** THINGS 4 SALE *** [Updated: 01.12.01] http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:42:46 EST From: Fastian@aol.com Subject: Re: Buy Dutch jazz now: while you still can << Let's hope for the best, not all Americans are aware of how small and fragile the Dutch scene really is. Believe me, this is a shock, we now only have one jazz distributor in Holland, the fairly mainstream 'Challenge'. Regards, Remco Takken >> Cadence and Verge carry these labels in North America but I'm unsure whether its through BVHAAAST or the labels directly. If they were unable to continue carrying those labels, that would be quite the bummer. I'm a serious Dutch jazz junkie. My latest discovery (for me) is Martin Fondse. He can write some serious tunes and has intense bandmates to play them. Is there a Meridian Arts Ensemble cd that has some of his compositions? Cheers, John Threadgould - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:47:38 -0500 From: pequet@altern.org (Benjamin Pequet) Subject: Re: Butch Morris biz At 08:25 PM 1/26/2002, Rick Lopez wrote: >anyone alert me to this?) and there's a sort of catalogue inside of maybe >9-10 *more* CDs in this collection. Does anyone have access to personnel on >these? Does anyone know, in particular, if any of the others have any of my Are you perhaps looking for a hyperlinked page such as: http://www.omnitone.com/store/label-newworld.htm I didn't know about that OmniTone store till found this page now though... - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:25:04 -0800 From: Chris Selvig <selvig@sonic.net> Subject: Zorn reviews Donald, Zorn is insanely prolific and as such, it's tough to find any one place that has good reviews of his discography. Two big bites I can think of are in the Spin Alternative Record Guide, in which Byron Coley covers Zorn's work up to 1994 or so; and some back issue of the Wire has a Primer on Zorn. I'd give you an issue number but the mag's out in the garage and it's raining, so try the index at http://www.thewire.co.uk/. www.allmusic.com also has brief reviews of many a Zorn record, and lastly, I'd guess this lists archives would reward a diligent searcher. Chris Selvig - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:49:05 +1100 From: "Adam Rock" <arock01@postoffice.csu.edu.au> Subject: Re: erstwhile Jon - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeton Ademaj" <jeton@hotmail.com> To: <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 6:57 AM Subject: erstwhile Jon > I never find myself simply unloading condescending insults n comments to people i > disagree with the way ersty-jon often does, even to the point of > (seriously?) putting down people's spelling n grammar 'errors' (a fool's > errand in e-munications!) IMHO, Jon Abbey's personality traits and dispositions (whatever they may or may not be) are of little or no concern. What I am concerned with is avant garde music in all it's multifarious forms. For that reason, in my view at least, Jon's input will be sorely missed. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:30:57 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Butch Morris biz In a message dated 1/26/02 8:30:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, bb10k@velocity.net writes: << Just received a Butch Morris "Conduction Collection" CD on the NEW WORLD label. Disc has two tracks with William Parker I was unaware of (why in hell didn't anyone alert me to this?) and there's a sort of catalogue inside of maybe 9-10 *more* CDs in this collection. Does anyone have access to personnel on these? Does anyone know, in particular, if any of the others have any of my research subjects present? This has a release date of 1995-- can anyone out there imagine the deep horror I feel whenever I find out I've actually missed something??? It means that there could be... others. >> I'm assuming that you know of the _Testament_ conduction box set released in the mid to late 90's on the same label? - -- watching: The Fifth Element =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:40:34 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl> Subject: ff's gravity and accidental From www.fredfrith.com: The latest Fred news: I had a very busy summer performing and recording, and working on the first Fred Records releases - expect Gravity and Accidental (Music for Dance volume 3) to appear before Christmas...... What about the release? - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:53:35 +0100 From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl> Subject: Odp: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition) Skip wrote: > I thought it was a nice idea, but he seemed to approach every tune fr the > same place. But I agree with Zorn that Ornette's function was not unlike > early hardcore -- almost a scare tactic to force some life back into the > msuic. For me, the album is a kind of 'rehearsal' - a first step in a way that eventualy gave us Torture garden. On this album, JZ makes OC's music sound like hardcore. he made this connetction more interesting on later albums. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:04:03 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Nick=20Cain?= <npc_4@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Neu and personal affronts I hope I'm not the only one who thought that Jon's original e-mail - whose tone I read as irked and slightly testy - in no way provided sufficient provocation / justification for such a vituperative response on the part of Kate. <if you had bothered to read any of my previous posts, you would have noted that since this is some breed of 'avant-garde' list serv, i thought it would be to do a listserv performance piece involving random answers to certain posts.> When you're trying to sift through the 75-100 e-mails the Zornlist fires at you on a daily basis in an attempt to locate the 10 or so that provide opinions or information of any worth or interest, silly messages which relate to nothing and offer absolutely no possibility of meaningful dialogue don't come across as "interesting / amusing / monotony breaking", they just come across as at best inane and at worst really annoying. How anyone conceives that an e-mail asking you if you like tangelos could potentially be "amusing" or "interesting" is a bit beyond me; I won't dwell on the question of how three random and pointless e-mails to a listserver necessarily constitute a "performance piece". <hmm... perhaps when you insult a man on a comment publicly i will come to his defence and in lieu of calling you a male chauvinist pig just call you a straight up ignorant fool. oh wait, i think i just did...> It's facile (and probably specious) of you to tar Jon as a "male chauvinist pig" - from what you've read of his contributions to this list, do you really think he is *so stupid* that he would make these comments to you just because you are female? You may be prepared to assume the very worst of him so quickly; I would prefer to reserve judgement. Your crude sandpit-level taunts - the worst of which is your pathetic "wanker" insult - do no-one unfortunate enough to read them any favours at all. Not forgetting... <And as for scraping up 15 minutes here, of course you WOULD presume that any reaction whatsoever on this list could possibly constitute NOTORIETY. More self-importance from someone claiming to decry it. Bite the poison apple, baby, and don't ferget to do Efren's homework while you're at it! Mebbe you'll both find something better to do, like buy some of Jonny's records........... "'Typical!'"> Is this bilious wittering supposed to be your attempt at "scahdenfreude"? The vindictive crowing on your and Kate's part at Jon's departure from the list is incredibly shabby form. I don't necessarily agree with everything Jon says (or said) on this list - or like all of the Erstwhile releases - but the fact remains that he was one of the few subscribers who regularly disseminated useful information and established and/or made worthwhile contributions to interesting threads of discussion. The Zornlist will be poorer for his premature exit, prompted by some "treatment" which was - - "IMHO" - unfair and distinctly unpleasant. ===== www.info.net.nz/opprobrium __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:09:30 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es> Subject: Re: Mooo Hoooo Handly... Hi, Sorry about the contents of this post, but my poor English prevents me from understanding the "subtle irony" in the paragraph below, in which my persona is named (and I assume in a pejorative sense, of course) despite the fact that I don't usually enter these disgusting arguments. If anyone cared to clarify, I'd be really appreciative - as you may understand, if anyone is calling me something publicly I like to know exactly what! Best, EfrΘn del Valle > And as for scraping up 15 minutes here, of course you WOULD presume that any > reaction whatsoever on this list could possibly constitute NOTORIETY. More > self-importance from someone claiming to decry it. Bite the poison apple, > baby, and don't ferget to do Efren's homework while you're at it! Mebbe > you'll both find something better to do, like buy some of Jonny's > records........... "'Typical!'" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:42:58 +0100 From: "Francesco Martinelli" <fmartinelli@tin.it> Subject: RE: Mooo Hoooo Handly... EfrΘn, I don't understand exactly either, not being a mother (or should i say father) language english speaker, but if i were you i wouldn't bother. Hardly worth the electrons it's written on... francesco - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:47:39 -0500 From: "Brian Olewnick" <olewnick@gis.net> Subject: Re: Neu and personal affronts Nick wrote: > The vindictive crowing on your and > Kate's part at Jon's departure from the list is > incredibly shabby form. I don't necessarily agree with > everything Jon says (or said) on this list - or like > all of the Erstwhile releases - but the fact remains > that he was one of the few subscribers who regularly > disseminated useful information and established and/or > made worthwhile contributions to interesting threads > of discussion. The Zornlist will be poorer for his > premature exit, prompted by some "treatment" which was > - "IMHO" - unfair and distinctly unpleasant. Nick makes many excellent points, I think. When problems like these most recent have arisen on this list, they tend to emanate from younger posters who, with the enthusiasm, hubris and insulated world-view we probably all had at 18, blurt out this or that absurdity in the mistaken belief that they're being original, provocative, whatever. Nick alludes to it, but the idea that the "tangelo" interjection was some kind of performance art is pretty quaint; might've passed muster 80 or 90 years ago, not now. I'm apparently more sanguine than some about simply pressing the delete key and I do it with some regularity here. Certain posters I've learned not to bother with and, for example, exchanges on the intricacies of Mr. Bungle aren't my cup o' tea. BUt, for me, that's part and parcel of any list. I'd only advise, fwiw, new posters to try and act the same way they would if they wandered into a roomful of people they didn't know. Listen and, if you have something to contribute, do so. Argue, argue vociferously, but show at least a modicum of courtesy. If you walk around muttering "tangelo" to yourself, expect scorn or dismissiveness, imho, well-earned. Jon and I are good friends, so his absence from this list won't matter much to me personally, though I'll miss his strongly-felt arguments here. I'll still get his opinions by the earful (and if you think he was opinionated here....) . I'd even say he'd be better off brushing aside the nonsense aimed at him, but that's his decision. But the majority of the list will be missing commentary by not only the proprietor of, again imho, the finest new music label out there, but by one of the keenest observers and investigators of the music. Maybe he's over-sensitive, but then again, some people have little time or patience for inanities. Brian Olewnick NP: Wehowsky/Drumm - Cases NR: Ballard - The Day of Creation - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 08:22:56 -0800 From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com> Subject: Personal affronts As a sort of long-time subscriber to this list I totally agree with Brian's view. I myself don't always read every message, but still, the ones I have read I value greatly. I have always enjoyed Jon's messages on various subjects that come up on this list - so I am sad that he left in such great haste. It seems like such a rash reason to leave a list - but then again we're all different personalities and are affected differently. But still, I admire that this list revolves around Zorn, but also leads to different types of music and opinions. One type of list I hate are the one's where the fans don't question the music or try to understand the work on a bigger scale. So I think the conversations (writings) on Ornette, Coltrane, Monk, Gainsbourg, and (my beloved) Sparks are really great and interesting. I think the very nature of Zorn brings up interesting issues and a lot of rich experiences in listening to new music as well as in literature and film. - -- Tosh Berman TamTam Books http://www.tamtambooks.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:00:35 EST From: UFOrbK8@aol.com Subject: didn't anyone notice... (and info on performance pieces for listservs) that i backed out of this conversation a long, long time ago? to anyone defending jon's position, that is your business. i have been told personally and publicly by a few people that as a "new subscriber" i have "no right" to post "inane blatherings". so someone just go ahead and tell me when it's okay that i do so (i see a good 50-60 of those a day), and i'll start. 'til then, nothing but content from me, kids. content and my performance pieces, that is. the idea of a performance piece for listservs i personally found amusing, and i have used as a way to break up silly arguments (i.e. ORNETTE COLEMAN), by quoting someone and responding with something silly, just to show that anyone's response to ANYTHING can be construed as silly or as incoherent or as just plain dumb. a lot of people have missed this point, alright. that doesn't make my idea "quaint"... i am in the midst of a bunch of pieces involving mass- and mis-communications, and this listserv has been great fodder. any other listserv i've been on, publicly the person who posted the "stupid" post -- which would have been mine about neu, to get back to the original topic, would have been defended after being publicly ripped down for my supposed ignorance and the complete and cruel condescention of the person who responded directly to that email first. a few people did. privately, a lot of people have expressed support for me and that is very nice. it seems that a recurring theme here is something to the effect of my age / maturity, etc. and that these things would have seemed like a good idea when you were 18, blah blah. i'm 23. i don't owe anyone an apology for my age, and if someone wants to rip me down publicly and be a jerk, someone i presume is much older and from whom i would expect more maturity, i feel that i have every right (1st amendement, anyone), to respond in kind. i also don't feel that i owe Mr. Erstwhile Records Himself (TM) an apology, since he is the person who first insulted me publicly. and really, if he is as important as he says he is, i pity the persons who have to work for and with him, if he treats them all with such disgust. i may be young, but i know a personal attack when i see one, and i know my art as well if not better than any other 23 year old, and i think we need to just be leaving age and how professional and well connected we all are out of these silly arguments. if some of you who publicly chastised me for the way i handled the situation had bothered to email me personally and ask me questions or talk to me at all, maybe you would understand that i don't see much differentiation between tom, dick, harry, and jane on this listserv. i read for information. i read to be entertained. with that in mind, i will make one concession - i am going to continue doing my performance pieces, mass approval or not (<sniff, sniff, do i smell joe mccarthy?>), but i will place in the header the title of the piece. i.e., performance piece for listserv 1: blah blah blah. okay? if you all want to continue arguing about who should have done what, that's your business. i find it rather amusing that my maturity is in question when i'm not the one who just tangoed out of the listserv in a blaze of glory (if indeed MERH (TM) did that, or if he is just lurking?), after being insulted by someone with a tiny brain and who is so young she couldn't possibly know the difference? <snicker> love, k8. - ----- [ .n o t h i n g i s w h a t i s s a i d. ] .k a t e p e t e r s o n. .c o m p o s e r / p e r f o r m e r. <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html"> http://www.geocities.com/uforbk8/kate.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.icefoundation.org">http://www.icefoundation.org</A> (roundtable) - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #710 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com