ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n703

Internet Message Format | 2002-01-24 | 21KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #703
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest       Friday, January 25 2002       Volume 03 : Number 703



In this issue:
-
       Re: Re:ornette
       Re: Sing Me A Song of Songmy, and KFW
       Re: KFW
       ReSpyvSpy
       Re:Kraftwerk
       Re: musicians listening habits
       Re: Re: Jost on Ornette & Re:ornette
       Re: Crispell
       Re: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God
       Re: who understands harmolodics? and jazz journalism
       Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
       Re: The Ornette Fight
       victoriaville
       re: basic fennesz Q
       Re: Crispell
       New DVDs
       Re: Kraftwerk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:38:38 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re:ornette

No, that makes perfect sense. I was going to say before in fact that no
matter how you define harmolodics, you've got to add 'but there's a catch...
Ornette's basically the only person who can do it and call it harmolodics'.

But to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he is completely eccentric
and he actually believes his definitions for harmolodics are true? I guess
people who have talked to him or heard him speak will have a better insight
into this...

> the difference is, ornette seems to feel the need to attach the way he
likes
> shit to sound to academic trappings. if threadgill wanted to build and/or
> publicize a theoretical base for the way he likes shit to sound, i'm sure
he
> could. it wouldn't make a difference either way, though, y'know what i
mean?
>
> i'm sure to get roasted for this (unless everyone's tired of the subject,
> and i still have about 4 digests to read), but please don't tell me i
don't
> know enough to back my opinion.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:51:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Sing Me A Song of Songmy, and KFW

You know, Eric's excellent description of this amazing
and deliciously weird record (excerpted below) reminds
me of why I despise the liberal use of the pejorative
"pretentious".  My god what we could do if we weren't
worried about pretention!  Are not lofty goals and an
unfettered id the preconditions of so much that is at
least delightfully beyond-fucked, if not really
interesting, beautiful, and/or brain-challenging?  But
of course, I am _reacting_ (as I am wont to do) to the
proliferation of the nasty little P-word in so much
popular critical pap.  (And I'm one who _likes_
critical.)  But I wax rhapsodic.

Point two: I spot check the Knitting Factory Works
material from time to time, and I get to hear many of
the records at the radio station I work at, and the
label seems like it's been on a downhill slide for
years, in terms of repeating itself, quality-control,
etc.  Women improvisors need more exposure, I think,
but Pharaoh's Daughter?  What utter shite.  Surely the
Knit can do better than this?  I don't want to expend
the energy necessary to name the names and slander
them, but does anyone else feel this way?  What a
missed opporunity, that label.

- -----s

np: Tim Hecker, HAUNT ME AND HAUNT ME AGAIN  (pretty,
but ultimately sub-Fennesz warm-loops ambient music)

- --- [e-mail] wrote:
>...It's billed as "a
> fantasy for electromagnetic tape" and it's a wild
> mixture of avant-garde
> jazz, modern classical, and music concrete, with
> some poetry thrown in for
> extra weirdness....There is lots of electronics and
tape manipulation
> as well. There are musical
> quotations from Brahms and others, and poetry and
> text from Kierkegaard, Che
> Guevara etc., lots of bleep and bloops and backwards
> tape, stereo panning,
> strings and full chorus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:55:05 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KFW

Haven't bought anything from them for ages, but in the past I've got a few
really good albums (Kazutoki Umezu's 'Eclecticism' for example, or the
latest Pachora). Recently it hasn't looked so good though... I don't know,
maybe they don't offer much to their artists, because I have noticed many of
the artists have moved to other labels for subsequent releases...

Even Ipecac has a much more impressive release schedule coming up -
according to recent news, they're releasing the next Steroid Maximus, the
next collaboration between the Boredoms and Ween, as well as a live
recording of the Fantomas/Melvins New Year's show 2000/1.

> Point two: I spot check the Knitting Factory Works
> material from time to time, and I get to hear many of
> the records at the radio station I work at, and the
> label seems like it's been on a downhill slide for
> years, in terms of repeating itself, quality-control,
> etc.  Women improvisors need more exposure, I think,
> but Pharaoh's Daughter?  What utter shite.  Surely the
> Knit can do better than this?  I don't want to expend
> the energy necessary to name the names and slander
> them, but does anyone else feel this way?  What a
> missed opporunity, that label.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 16:28:08 +0000
From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: ReSpyvSpy

=->I found it strange that nobody complained about the
sound quality of that recording - maybe someone did
and I missed it. It's massive, but in a negative way
(kind of direct-to-2-track recording or something).
Along with Masada's "Live in Taipei", the worst Zorn
(in terms of sound, that is), IMHO.

story is that elliot sharp was the engineer on the session, but when zorn
insisted on a "punk" lo-fi, no-bottom sound, e# had his name taken off the
credits.

kg

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:10:16 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re:Kraftwerk

> >From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
>
> >
> >    can you tell me which is the ONE Kraftwerk album to get?  Is there a
>nice
> >compilation or should I just go with one of their proper albums?

There's not really one album that covers everything Kraftwerk have done.
There's 2 distinct periods to their existence, the earlier Krautrock
experimental work, and then the electronic disco robotics stuff. Although I
do like the later stuff, especially Man Machine and Trans Europe Express, I
still find the earlier recordings more interesting and engaging.
Unfortunately these have only been on CD as bootlegs (good quality ones),
they are: Kraftwerk, Kraftwerk 2, Ralf & Florian. Before Kraftwerk, they
also did an album called Tonefloat under the band name Organisation (not
great, but interesting for historical reasons). Then they did Autobahn,
which is really the pivotal release between the early experimentation and
the later stuff. It's also worth checking out. Plus, there is Neu, comprised
of Klaus Dinger & Michael Rother who were briefly members of Kraftwerk and
took the early ideas of Kraftwerk in a harsher more experimental direction.
The first Neu album is essential (more so than any Kraftwerk) and happily
reissued (even on vinyl) thru Astralwerks.

np:Sofia Gubaidulina 'Pro et Contra' (Kalitzke/Radio-Philharmonie Hannover
des NDR)


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:28:06 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: musicians listening habits

I mostly agree with you. However, I think musicians tend to listen just that
little bit closer anyway - I'm not talking about hearing something majorly
technical, it could be just one special chord in a piece which will hit you,
and you're looking around at the other people in the room and they've all
just glossed over it.

That could just be my friends though - this list listens to some pretty
crazy stuff, so I'd guess even the non-musicians out there are listening
pretty deeply...

> Well, maybe I chose a bad example, but I think the point still stands.
You
> said that a plug-in might not redeem what they're doing, but likewise,
> really fast/technical playing doesn't redeem music with a dearth of ideas
> (for me).  Same with the Autechre example you used.  If their crappy
> equipment is really turning people off, so be it, but I certainly wouldn't
> pretend that my ability to recognize the software they're using puts me in
> any privileged position.  I think claiming a privileged position vis a vis
> ability to determine some music's validity or aesthetic worth is pretty
> obnoxious.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:11:21 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Jost on Ornette & Re:ornette

>From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>

>I appreciate the Gebers fragments, Bill; I need to go
>back to this book.  But since Gebers brought it up:
>could someone please NAME SOME NAMES regarding this
>"sterilized tone quality" of "West Coast jazz"?

Fair question, Scott.  Ekkehard Jost does not say.  The statement is not
developed.  Therefore, it's only speculation in trying to fill in the
details.  I consider it a throw-away line--nothing to get shook up about.
Absent Jost himself, the aporia remains.


>From: "Kurt Gottschalk" <[e-mail]>
>but please don't tell me i don't
>know enough to back my opinion.

I promise not to indulge this masochistic urge.

>the difference is, ornette seems to feel the need to attach the way he
>likes
>shit to sound to academic trappings. if threadgill wanted to build and/or
>publicize a theoretical base for the way he likes shit to sound, i'm sure
>he
>could. it wouldn't make a difference either way, though, y'know what i
>mean?


But it apparently makes a difference to Ornette.  And if it does, the
responsible thing to do is to concede him the proviso that he requires and
ask the question from there rather than doubt him suspiciously as creating
some kind of insulation for himself.  "Academic trappings?"  I wonder what
our old hobo Harry Partch would say to this.  You invent some new concepts
regarding sound.  You try to develop a theory to make it intelligible to an
audience and to see where the concepts can move.  And people accuse you of
being "academic."  You a person whose spent your whole life outside the
university, reading in buildings like the NY public library while trying not
to smell bad.  When one reads the first few chapters in Litweiler's bio of
Ornette, you wonder how the guy ever survived--dealing with racism
constantly, condescension, bad luck, etc. Given that history, why would the
guy ever need some kind of theoretical "crutch?"  Sorry I don't buy it.  I
think Ornette was sincere about his theory.  It's not some kind of
obfuscatory rhetoric.

More than forty years after he hits NYC, the same arguments against his work
persist.  It's just a little bit peculiar.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:17:24 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Crispell

on 02.01.24 5:29 PM, Rev. Floyd Errors at [e-mail] wrote:

> Crispell / Hauser / Kleeb / Liemgruber / Plenar: Behind the Night
> X-Talk BW049 (CD) 1995
>
> Marilyn Crispell (p-1,2,4,5,6,7; "sustained piano"-3; voc-1,8)
> Hildegard Kleeb (p; bowed p)
> Elvira Plenar (p)
> Urs Leimgruber (ss; ts; voc; bell)
> Fritz Hauser (d; perc)
>
> [Notes: Track 5 is Crispell, Kleeb, and Plenar all on one piano.
> 4 tracks between track "B" and "C" actually have no titles.]

Ahh... Clipping things out of my research documents, eh???

There may be heavy cash penalties attached to this kind of activity y'know.


RL
- ----------
[  All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k  ]

Sessionographies :
CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.

Discographies :
COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.

Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag;
ETC.,
- ----------
*** THINGS 4 SALE ***  [Updated: 01.12.01]
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:23:23 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Ornette Coleman Is God

> Remco Takken Adds:


> I also wished Zappa had recorded his Doo-wop favorites with earlier outfits
> than his 1982-84 live groups. Still glad that live versions of 'Little Girl
> of Mine' and 'No No Cherry' exist though.

I asked Howard kaylan abou this very thing, and he told me that FZ felt he
covered that with the two RUBEN &THE JETS records.  I'm thinking that it
took White  and Willis (vocally) to re-whet his appetite.

> I feel the 1982 group played the newly composed material OK though, perhaps
> because it was specially written for them. Enter 'something personal' there
> IMHO (Drowning Witch etc).
I agree.  Those records mark the biginning of his last comeback for me.

skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:25:24 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics? and jazz journalism

> From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:17:31 +0000
> To: [e-mail], [e-mail], [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics? and jazz journalism
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>

> OK, Skip, I'm going to agree with you on this issue.  The problem of
> privileging "high art" over the so-called "low" forms.  We've agreed on this
> before.  But I see the problem much differently than you do.  You see this
> problem above as "intellectualism."  I see it as a lack of adequate
> intellect.  An inability to completely think through the problem of the
> "high" and the "low" and the resort to a cliche--making the "low" into the
> "high."  In short then, you see the problem as one of "being intellectual."
> I see it as the problem of "being insufficiently intellectual."
>
I see it as something like that, with "careless" and "arrogant" added in.
As a writer friend of mine put it, "Why did those guys think John Lennon
needed their pedigree?"

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:28:22 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)

> From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:45:31 -0800
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: free jazz (was spontaneous performance/composition)
>
> This is a great conversation!  What I am going to do is play all the
> early Ornette CD's in a row.  I will sit there in front of the two
> speakers and LISTEN.  With respect to this current conversation about
> Ornette - what are your opinions on Zorn's SPY VS. SPY?  I know this
> has been discussed in the past, but I am curious in knowing what are
> the current thoughts with respect with the ongoing commentary on this
> list.
> --
> Tosh Berman
> TamTam Books
> http://www.tamtambooks.com
>
I thought it was a nice idea, but he seemed to approach every tune fr the
same place.  But I agree with Zorn that Ornette's function was not unlike
early hardcore -- almost a scare tactic to force some life back into the
msuic.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 22:38:51 -0800
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The Ornette Fight

> From: "Chris Selvig" <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 10:12:20 -0800
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: The Ornette Fight
>
> "You're essentially saying 'this is just my opinion but it's right'..." -
> having endured and participated in several hundred music arguments, I'm
> going to come right out and say this is the soul of said arguments.  I don't
> always agree with Mr Heller - I'm quite an Ornette fan, f'rinstance - but
> his ability to skilfully lob darts goes a long way toward keeping this list
> interesting.  Is there some concern that someone's feelings might be hurt?
>
> -Selvig
>
Only Mr Coleman's.

sh


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 23:02:47 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: victoriaville

hi,

does anyone have a contact at the victoriaville festival?

thanks,



Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 15:52:35 +0800
From: jmcazurin <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: basic fennesz Q

At 07:08 AM 1/25/2002, [e-mail] wrote:

> >   I'm just wondering how 'Fennesz' is pronounced...
>
>Like Venice in English, but with an F at the beginning, i.e. "FEN-es".
>
>In Hungarian (the origin of the name), the 'sz' combination is pronounced
>like a regular 's' in English.  (When 's' appears alone in Hungarian, it's
>like the English 'sh' sound.)

   Thanks for the correction! I was reversed. I was saying it as "fenesh".


> >ps - my new girlfriend, on hearing a Fennesz track, said, "Whoa, sex
> >music!" - now I'm in love.
>and here's a response forwarded from the Fenman himself!:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: fennesz
>
> >women seem to have a much clearer view upon my music.
> >its not laptop, clicks n=B4whatever, its sex music! absolutely!
> >c

   Wow! Yes I agree. This was one thing my girlfriend and I agreed on
right away. Am looking forward to some interesting nights.

mikah




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:26:51 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Crispell

>>>Ahh... Clipping things out of my research documents, eh???

There may be heavy cash penalties attached to this kind of
activity y'know.<<<

Yeah, like you're offended that your research is used to promote
great music for great artists.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:13:04 -0600
From: Moudry <[e-mail]>
Subject: New DVDs

Does anyone know about these two new DVDs that showed up this morning
on Ken Crane's DVD Planet weekly listing?

Carla Bley: Montreal Jazz Festival     [$14.99]
Charlie Haden: Liberation Music Orchestra: Montreal Jazz Festival     [$14.99]

What year(s)? Band members?

Saturnally,
- --
Joe Moudry
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education, UAB

Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra & Free Jazz);
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>
Producer/Host of Classic Jazz & Creative Improv on Alabama Public Radio
WUAL 91.5 FM Tuscaloosa/Birmingham
WQPR 887. FM Muscle Shoals/NW Alabama
WAPR 88.3 Selma/Montgomery/Southern AL
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
    --de la Vega

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:41:04 -0600
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kraftwerk

Ralf & Florian is one of my favorite from Kraftwerk, which I found on vinyl
at a local used record store, along with an 'instore sampler' that includes
some great remixes/edits of early 80's stuff (including Radioactivity and Tour
de France).

m
http://craque.net

(np: richard devine, "resource, leak")


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #703
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]