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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, January 1 2002       Volume 03 : Number 668



In this issue:
-
       Re: plunderphonics/etc.
       Re: Best Director's Duo
       Re: plunderphonics/etc.
       RE: plunderphonics/etc.
       RE: plunderphonics/etc.
       Re: Another LYNCH question -
       Re: Another LYNCH question
       re: Agnes Martin
       Re: BR=?ISO-8859-1?B?1g==?=TZMANN 10_Victoriaville 1999
       RE: Another LYNCH question -
       Re: Humor
       Oswalds Grayfolded, Was: Re: Happy New Year
       Re: Best Director's Duo
       Re: plunderphonics/etc.
       Fwd: Best Director's Duo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:20:46 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.

The Avalanches tends to have a beat, making it relatively listener-friendly.
Oswald's stuff (as far as I know it) nearly never worries about either of
those things, and is more concerned with meaning, context, sounds... For
example taking something as simple yet well-known as the final chord from
the Beatles 'Day In The Life', and making it the basis for a piece, or
taking snippets of Naked City thrash-jazz and trying to make an 8-second
piece with as much (if not more) intensity as the originals... His stuff
seems to be all form and function, but obviously, being experimental music,
it isn't going to be as clear as something like the Avalanches...

> That's the whole point; Oswald doesn't mix them at all; they're literally
> "thrown together" with no form or function. A good comparison would be the
> recent Avalanches record, "Since I left you", which is 100% sample-based,
from
> little hits and noises down to extended riffs. It's not a terrific record,
but
> it's a great pop record. Even though they're working with (supposedly)
900+
> samples, it all fits together nicely. Oswald just sort of "throws
everything
> together."


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:31:30 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Best Director's Duo

> The Man Who Wasn't There

This has been mentioned a few times, just wondering what everyone thought of
it..? I've liked everything the Coen Brothers have done, this was no
exception, but I just found it a bit slow-moving. The style was perfect, the
acting was mostly great, I just found myself wanting a bit more to happen.
What do you all think?

Julian.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:15:44 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.

>From: "M Pathos" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
>Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:19:51 -0700
>
>Technique is interesting and important. But it can't redeem art that's
>emotionally, if not intellectualy, sterile. I can't help but think that
>people like Oswald are as Prog-gy as Gentle Giant...

If subjectively speaking you find Oswald's work emotionally or
intellectually sterile, that's fine, but please qualify it as your personal
opinion. Plunderphonics is actually quite a dangerous art, in the truest
sense (just read the history of Oswald's sampling work in the notes,
especially his dealings with the CRIA and its president Brian Robertson) ,
and along with other 'samplers' like the visionary Steinski and Lucky People
Center, it is dealing directly with that enormous dilemma hovering over the
music business today: namely who owns the airwaves? Do music corporations
and publishing companies actually own the sounds you hear and maintain
control of CD content after you have purchased it? Is sampling only
available to those that can afford to pay performance rights? Is any
musician producing completely original sounds, chord progressions, etc. that
are copyrightable? I know polemics don't qualify good music, but the fact
that someone is breaking down other recorded musics to recreate new work
with is pretty revolutionary, at least in my book. Isn't that what
Schaeffer, Henry, Stockhausen etc. did with musique concrete, only with
'safe' source material?  This is a continuation of that exploration. You
should check out Steinski's 'Right Thing To Do' put together 10 years ago in
response to the Gulf War. A year ago it may have sounded quite dated, but in
view of the current president and his 'Politics for Profit' agenda, it is
completely topical. Sure anyone could sample a George Bush, but to catch him
rhyming melodically is a stroke of genius. Plunderphonics is a direct
response to pop music kultur; sampling allows the 'composer' access to any
and all sounds for his musical palette. Oswald, as has been reiterated, has
focused on the prankish nature of the medium, but there are definite
political ramifications to what he's done.

Oh, and incidentally Gentle Giant  were a great band, with lots of warmth,
humour and interesting ideas...

np: Schnittke Concerto Grosso 1

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:38:23
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: plunderphonics/etc.

>Technique is interesting and important. But it can't redeem art >that's
>emotionally, if not intellectualy, sterile. I can't help but >think that
>people like Oswald are as Prog-gy as Gentle Giant - they >just replace
>Dungeons & Dragons with Deleuze & Derrida.

Well, I think that's being a little hard on Gentle Giant. And Dungeons &
Dragons. But I'll let someone else pick up on that point. What I was going
to say is that, while I agree that some of the Plunderphonics stuff strikes
me as sterile, not all of it does. For example, the Carly Simon/Faster
Pussycat "You're So Vein" collage (which Brian O. also mentioned). To me,
that is emotionally moving as well technically amazing, and also kind of
funny. That's my favorite one on there.

>That's the whole point; Oswald doesn't mix them at all; they're >literally
>"thrown together" with no form or function. [...] Oswald >just sort of
>"throws everything together."

I think someone else beat me to this, but this is not true. To use the
"You're so Vain" example again(I guess the track is actually called "vane"),
the cuts are really extremely precise, and with a strong sense of
form/function/coherence. There are other examples, but I don't have all
night here ...

Anyway, I guess my name was mentioned as someone who found this release more
"interesting" than satisfying on a gut level, and that is true for the most
part. My favorite part of the release, apart from five or six of the tracks
that I go back to, are the liner notes (and the packaging).



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:41:36
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: plunderphonics/etc.

>As many people complain about "jokes" or "pranks" in music, I'm >reminded
>of a group that many people on this list enjoy immensely, >Mr. Bungle.

Maybe the people who are complaining don't like Mr. Bungle either?

>Though their two most recent albums lack the overt sophomoric humor of
>their debut, there is definitely a humor about >Disco Volante (albeit
>twisted) and even California.

Yes, definitely. I started listening to Mr. B after I had heard aa lot of
their related side projects (or thing they had at least been involved with
in some way) on Amarillo -- the Three Doctors, Neil Hamburger, the Great
Phone Calls album, etc. -- and coming at it from that angle, the prank/humor
element is hard to miss.

Then again, Mr. B is a lot more conventionally "musical" and easy to get
into than Oswald on a day-to-day listening basis. I've listened to Disco
Volante 200 times, at least, but still haven't made it through the
Plunderphonics 2CD in one sitting. Then again, I wonder if 60 pages of liner
notes and interviews on the ins and outs of DV would be as interesting as
the ones in the Plunderphonics package ...

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 02:36:53 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another LYNCH question -

>in my opinion) DUNE?  I hear it was originally about 3 hours, before it
>was pared down for commercial release....

Actually there is a three-hour verson (a frequent bootleg item that you can
even rent in some stores) but it was done without Lynch's approval and he
fought to have his name removed.

- -------------------------------------------
Adventures In Sound
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures.htm

Outsider Music Mailing List
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/outsider.htm

Documentary Sound
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/adventures/documentary.htm

Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:59:54 -0600
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Another LYNCH question

>Actually there is a three-hour verson (a frequent bootleg item that you can
>even rent in some stores) but it was done without Lynch's approval and he
>fought to have his name removed.

Is this the same as the "Allen Smithee" version that the Sci-Fi channel has
shown in the past?  From what I have been able to gather, Lynch objected to
the extra exposition that was added to the film to "dumb it down" for the
masses and make it more accessible, which led to his demanding his name be
removed from the film.

I must admit that I've always enjoyed the music from this film (guilty
pleasure), despite the fact that it is the only thing Toto has done that
has even remotely grabbed my attention.  But as is the case with many of
the soundtracks I've enjoyed over the years, I seem to enjoy it more
without the connection to the visuals - as a stand alone album.  When
coupled with the movie, it just doesn't seem to fit that well (most of the
time).  I would love to have seen a soundtrack to the film done by
Badalamenti - I have no doubt it would have been extraordinary.


Craig M. Rath
H: [e-mail]
W: [e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:46:28 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: Agnes Martin

there was a book, i think put together by Barbara Haskell, that i picked up
not too long ago, that included some of Martin's Work, with text...I'd
reccomend any sort of writing Martin has done, she's amazingly lucid, unlike
this response..
from,
matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:26:15 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: BR=?ISO-8859-1?B?1g==?=TZMANN 10_Victoriaville 1999

on 12/30/01 1:15 PM, Rick Lopez at [e-mail] wrote:


> someone on the Zorn-list would know.*** I know more than one member
> attended the show.
>=20
>>> So, in my opinion this was the concert-program:
>>> First set:=20
>>> 1) Immediate music (Lonberg-Holm) 8:00
>>> 2) Other brothers (Vandermark)  exact duration unknown but more than
>>> 22:00
>>> 3) Old bottles, no wine (Gustafsson)                            9:00
>>> 4) Makapoor (Zerang)                                            17:00
>=20

>>> Introduction Br=F6tzmann (at the end of the first set)            1:10
>>> Second set:=20
>>> 1) Stone/water (Br=F6tzmann)                                      38:34
>=20

To the best of my memory, this was the order of the concert.  I know that
Brian Olewnik, Jon Abbey, and James Hale were also there.  Kurt Gottschalk
may have been there also.

- --Mike


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:33:58 -0400
From: "Neil H. Enet" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Another LYNCH question -

> is there any chance in
>hell for a director's cut of the much-maligned(but >incredibly awesome,
>in my opinion) DUNE?
- -----------------------------

DUNE exists on DVD (the regular version), but Paramount, Columbia (whatever)
has said that this is a title they will probably revisit sometime in the
future.  Maybe this means putting out the three hours version, or maybe it
just means that they'll add another trailer and an interview and call it a
special edition.

    Talking about Lynch's uncut movies. .. Twin Peaks - Fire Walk With Me is
originally a three hour long version too ... and the released one is missing
some important scenes.  Fans have been sending requests and fighting really
hard to let them know that we really want the uncut version ... but it looks
like they just don't wanna pay for the deleted scenes since this movie is
going to be released in February ... the two hour version version that is.
But of course ... if it were Michael Jackson's Moonwalker, then I guess they
would put out a double DVD with lots of extra scenes and whatever.

Happy New Year

Neil H. Enet
- ------------

NP. ENNIO MORRICONES - fistful of filmmusic


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:16:34
From: "Andrew Nairn" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Humor

I would also like to point out the irony of Momus esp. the Stars Forever
album which is a big prank on the music maker's way to make money, and some
of his lyrics are filled with a wit.

    Another humorous and very artistic artist that is brought to mind is
Beck. I still chuckle everytime I hear "Drive-by body piercing!" But as far
as I know he's very serious. I think there are many artists that present
humor and seriousness at the same time, and one could call that sort of
prank on the limiting perspective people have of lyrics and music. (music
that I think has simultanious humor/seriousness: Momus, Beck, Bruce Haack,
Boredoms, Devo, Merzbow, Cibo Matto, Mercury Rev, Sun Ra, Aphex Twin, almost
any Doo-wop, lots of synth-pop, etc.)

    I once saw some interview on VH1 with some magazine person who refering
to the Red Hot Chili Peppers said that almost all successful music is goofy
in some way, or something along those lines. And it makes me wonder if all
music is somehow linked to humor, but of course it can also very serious,
and I'm willing to say that it is both.


- -Andrew


on 12/31/01 11:25 AM, &c. at [e-mail] wrote:

>As many people complain about "jokes" or "pranks" in music, I'm reminded
>of a group that many people on this list enjoy immensely, Mr. Bungle.
>Though their two most recent albums lack the overt sophomoric humor of
>their debut, there is definitely a humor about Disco Volante (albeit
>twisted) and even California.  I could see where DV could be considered
>one big joke, but this has been hailed as a work of genius (which I
>would agree with, by the way).  I'm confused...
>
>Wasn't Naked City involved in the occasional silliness, especially when
>Mr. Eye was involved?
>
>Zach
>
>-
>




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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:14:29 +0100
From: "Remco Takken" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Oswalds Grayfolded, Was: Re: Happy New Year

As for John Oswald's plunderings ... I think he did a great job with
'GRAYFOLDED', the 'remix' of Grateful Dead's 'Dark Star'. Does it sound
dated? Not to the ears of this 40 something hippy :-)

The dated sounds on Grayfolded are part of the genius of that work. For
instance: the moment those shakers come in, lifted off some eight track
analog tape reel.

In the past, the Dead has been a group of tech heads too, and Oswalds
approach is a critical one: he shows everybody how much more could have been
done with the music of this erratic little rock n roll band.

On albums like Anthem of the Sun and Infrared Roses the Dead only slightly
hinted at the possibilities of technology and wit Oswald puts off in his
GRAYFOLDED project.

Ah well, it's only the Grateful Dead, but to me GRAYFOLDED is the only Fully
Great Dead album...

Regards, Remco


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:14:21 -0800
From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Best Director's Duo

>>>The Man Who Wasn't There

but I just found it a bit slow-moving.<<<

Sublimely slow-moving. Like Paris, Texas and Dead Man.

Comatosity as transcendence.

The first Coen Bros. movie I have thoroughly enjoyed.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:07:51 -0700
From: "M Pathos" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.

Not, of course, that what I think is significant (or that the opinions
expressed in my posts are anything other than manifestly subjective) - but
of course Oswald's work was/is foundational for anyone seeking to
thoughtfully approach sampling in music, and intellectual copyright law.
Much of it is entertaining, and it's all extremely well crafted, even by
contemporary standards. If I didn't feel this, I wouldn't bother talking
about him at all.

And I've digital copies of all Gentle Giant's albums, having "Acquired the
Taste" some years ago. :)

"Nobody's perfect . . . I myself have a susceptibility to drafts."
- -Oscar Wilde


>

If subjectively speaking you find Oswald's work emotionally or
intellectually sterile, that's fine, but please qualify it as your personal
opinion.

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 01:16:43 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ricardo=20Campillo?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Best Director's Duo

- --0-799363832-1009930603=:98744
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Barton Fink is for me the best film of Cohen bro.
Muerte entre las flores(sorry,I don't know the
original title)is another good film,but Fargo and O
Brother disappoint me.

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Subject: Best Director's Duo
From: Rob Allaert <[e-mail]>
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List,

I hope all members took the time to watch some movies directed by the
brothers Coen. These are the most important to me:

The Man Who Wasn't There
O Brother, Where Art Thou
Fargo

    greetings,
      Rob @ risk
        np: Hothouse Flowers


- -

- --0-799363832-1009930603=:98744--

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #668
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