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2001-12-31
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #667
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, December 31 2001 Volume 03 : Number 667
In this issue:
-
Agnes Martin
Re: Re: most satisfying releases of 2001
Re: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Best Director's Duo
Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Humor
RE: Best Director's Duo
Re: Best Director's Duo
Fwd: Best Director's Duo
Another LYNCH question -
Happy New Year
RE: plunderphonics/etc.
RE: plunderphonics/etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:58:50 +0100
From: patRice <iqhouse@yahoo.de>
Subject: Agnes Martin
Hi y'all.
There was an excellent documentary on Agnes Martin (to whom Zorn's
"Redbird" is dedicated) on Swiss TV yesterday.
My question now: have any of you ever read any of her writings? Can you
recommend any of them?
Thanks for your help!
patRice
np: Elvis Presley, Golden Hits
nr: Yoko ?, Hotel Iris
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:24:10 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: most satisfying releases of 2001
>From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
>Subject: Re: most satisfying releases of 2001
>
>In a message dated 12/30/01 8:04:39 AM, bashline@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< Seminal ear-shattering experiences of 2001:
>
>1) Xenakis, La Legende d'Eer, Montaigne
>
>2) Sachiko M & Toshimaru Nakamaura, Do, Erstwhile >>
>
>wow, you would have loved the six hour DJ set at Experimental Intermedia
>last
>December I put together (with help from Mike Goodstein of WFMU). I included
>all of Legende d'Eer and the 37 minute track from do as two of the three
>core
>pieces which I built the program around. the third was Robert Ashley's
>Automatic Writing, in a different vein from those two, but just as
>mindblowing.
I know I would have. It's unfortunate I'm so poorly placed for such events.
But now I can begin to construct an imaginary aural equivalent, and yes
that combination of recordings would certainly have blown me away. I had a
difficult time finally getting a copy of Automatic Writing, but I've been
listening to it frequently throughout the year. A very powerful piece
indeed.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:31:23 +0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
>From: Craig Rath <fripp@mn.mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
>
>Just my opinion - take it for what it's worth. Considering most of my
>music purchases of late have been things my friends consider unlistenable
>(Aube and other Japanese noise artists in particular), I don't really
>expect too many people to agree with me. But I also get irritated when
>people shoot something down without really giving it a fair shake.
I agree with you. People shouldn't dismiss the work too easily. I can tell
that something is going on with Oswald's work. And it is interesting and
fun. I was listening to it again earlier this morning many hours before I
got to reading the Zorn digest and I did enjoy a lot of the recording. It's
a bit difficult right now for me to fathom the impact this recording had in
1989. I can imagine it only slightly. My issue is that I didn't find it
quite as fascinating as I expected, given the build-up of the release, and
so I didn't include it in my favorites of the year. Others had, so I was
curious about their reactions.
_________________________________________________________________
Join the worldÆs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 06:31:27 -0800
From: chuckp8@juno.com
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- ----__JNP_000_5d4a.6438.4c5b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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zlist folk,
Not to dismiss anyone's opinion, as everyone is entitled to their own,
but to a guy like me, who sits in front of a multitrack mixer every work
day and damn near every day off, Oswalds work is mind numbingly
incredible.
Sure, it may not move along like DJ Shadow record, but Plunderphonics
doesn't seem to be a precursor to Endtroducing. They are different in
their construction, if not their source material, and the intended
results couldn't be further apart. It's difficult for me to even come up
with an artist today who is doing the same thing that Oswald was doing 13
years ago. Evolution Control Comittee... some of those rough trade
singles combining missy elliot and metallica and the like... but still,
those works pale in comparison to what Oswald accomplished years ago, and
probably without the help of the techno gadgetry we have today.
To me, it's Oswalds MIXING that makes him amazing. Throwing things
together isn't hard, really... making them fit together is.
Anyway, each artists work is singular to that artist, and none should be
held up to any others, but I guess they inevitably do...
what a pie-eyed dreamer I can be.
Chuck P.
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:27:27 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com writes:
>
> In a message dated 12/30/01 5:10:31 PM, fripp@mn.mediaone.net
> writes:
>
> << I cannot see how you can consider Oswald's approach to be "just
> throwing them all together". Have you ever listened to Plexure? Even
if
> you haven't heard that piece, his other plunderphonics works can hardly
> be considered "thrown together". To me his works are very coherent.
> >>
>
> I agree, you guys are being awfully tough on Oswald. sure,
> some of his work sounds dated, but he was definitely
> groundbreaking in this genre. much of the original plunderphonic
> record holds up pretty well, specifically the first eight or
> nine tracks.
>
> and whoever cited DJ Shadow, Endtroducing also sounds pretty dated
> now, and that's only five years old, not thirteen like Plunderphonic.
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
> -
>
>
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<DIV>zlist folk,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Not to dismiss anyone's opinion, as everyone is entitled to their own,=
but=20
to a guy like me, who sits in front of a multitrack mixer every work =
day=20
and damn near every day off, Oswalds work is mind numbingly=20
incredible. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sure, it may not move along like DJ Shadow record, but Plunderphonics=
=20
doesn't seem to be a precursor to Endtroducing. They=20
are different in their construction, if not their source material, and=
the=20
intended results couldn't be further apart. It's difficult for me to =
even=20
come up with an artist today who is doing the same thing that =
Oswald=20
was doing 13 years ago. Evolution Control Comittee... some of those =
rough=20
trade singles combining missy elliot and metallica and the like... but =
still,=20
those works pale in comparison to what Oswald accomplished years ago, and=20
probably without the help of the techno gadgetry we have today.</=
DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To me, it's Oswalds MIXING that makes him amazing. Throwing=
=20
things together isn't hard, really... making them <STRONG>fit</STRONG> =
together=20
is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, each artists work is singular to that artist, and none should =
be=20
held up to any others, but I guess they inevitably do... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>what a pie-eyed dreamer I can be.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chuck P.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:27:27 EST <A=20
href=3D"mailto:JonAbbey2@aol.com">JonAbbey2@aol.com</A> writes:<BR>> <BR=
>>=20
In a message dated 12/30/01 5:10:31 PM, <A=20
href=3D"mailto:fripp@mn.mediaone.net">fripp@mn.mediaone.net</A> <BR>>=20
writes:<BR>> <BR>> << I cannot see how you can consider Oswald'=
s=20
approach to be "just <BR>> throwing them all together". Have you =
ever=20
listened to Plexure? Even if <BR>> you haven't heard that piece, =
his=20
other plunderphonics works can hardly <BR>> be considered "thrown=20
together". To me his works are very coherent. <BR>>=20
>><BR>> <BR>> I agree, you guys are being awfully tough on =
Oswald.=20
sure, </DIV>
<DIV>> some of his work sounds dated, but he was definitely </=
DIV>
<DIV>> groundbreaking in this genre. much of the original=20
plunderphonic </DIV>
<DIV>> record holds up pretty well, specifically the first =
eight or=20
</DIV>
<DIV>> nine tracks. <BR>> <BR>> and whoever cited DJ Shadow,=20
Endtroducing also sounds pretty dated <BR>> now, and that's only =
five=20
years old, not thirteen like Plunderphonic. <BR>> <BR>> Jon<BR>> <=
A=20
href=3D"http://www.erstwhilerecords.com/">www.erstwhilerecords.com</A><BR>&=
gt;=20
<BR>> -<BR>> <BR>> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ----__JNP_000_5d4a.6438.4c5b--
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:19:51 -0700
From: "M Pathos" <mpathos@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Technique is interesting and important. But it can't redeem art that's
emotionally, if not intellectualy, sterile. I can't help but think that
people like Oswald are as Prog-gy as Gentle Giant - they just replace
Dungeons & Dragons with Deleuze & Derrida.
<
<
zlist folk,
Not to dismiss anyone's opinion, as everyone is entitled to their own,
but to a guy like me, who sits in front of a multitrack mixer every work
day and damn near every day off, Oswalds work is mind numbingly
incredible.
Sure, it may not move along like DJ Shadow record, but Plunderphonics
doesn't seem to be a precursor to Endtroducing. They are different in
their construction, if not their source material, and the intended
results couldn't be further apart. It's difficult for me to even come up
with an artist today who is doing the same thing that Oswald was doing 13
years ago. Evolution Control Comittee... some of those rough trade
singles combining missy elliot and metallica and the like... but still,
those works pale in comparison to what Oswald accomplished years ago, and
probably without the help of the techno gadgetry we have today.
To me, it's Oswalds MIXING that makes him amazing. Throwing things
together isn't hard, really... making them fit together is.
Anyway, each artists work is singular to that artist, and none should be
held up to any others, but I guess they inevitably do...
what a pie-eyed dreamer I can be.
Chuck P.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:25:25 +0100
From: Rob Allaert <roballaert@mac.com>
Subject: Best Director's Duo
List,
I hope all members took the time to watch some movies directed by the
brothers Coen. These are the most important to me:
The Man Who Wasn't There
O Brother, Where Art Thou
Fargo
greetings,
Rob @ risk
np: Hothouse Flowers
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:34:56 -0800
From: chuckp8@juno.com
Subject: Re: plunderphonics/etc.
Thanks for helping to make my point.... ;)
the emotionally bankrupt chuck p.
On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:19:51 -0700 "M Pathos" <mpathos@hotmail.com>
writes:
> Technique is interesting and important. But it can't redeem art
> that's emotionally, if not intellectualy, sterile. I can't help but
think
> that people like Oswald are as Prog-gy as Gentle Giant -
> Anyway, each artists work is singular to that artist, and none
> should be held up to any others, but I guess they inevitably do...
>
> what a pie-eyed dreamer I can be.
>
> Chuck P.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
>
> -
>
>
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:25:25 -0500
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: Humor
As many people complain about "jokes" or "pranks" in music, I'm reminded
of a group that many people on this list enjoy immensely, Mr. Bungle.
Though their two most recent albums lack the overt sophomoric humor of
their debut, there is definitely a humor about Disco Volante (albeit
twisted) and even California. I could see where DV could be considered
one big joke, but this has been hailed as a work of genius (which I
would agree with, by the way). I'm confused...
Wasn't Naked City involved in the occasional silliness, especially when
Mr. Eye was involved?
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:11:44 -0500
From: "Matthew Mitchell" <matmi@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Best Director's Duo
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I tend to at least like everything they've done. My
favorites are 'Barton Fink' and 'Big Lebowski,' though, just utter
classics, I think. O Brother might be along my least favorites of theirs,
though I still like it.
- -matt mitchell
The Man Who Wasn't There
O Brother, Where Art Thou
Fargo
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I tend to at least like everything they've done. My favorites are 'Barton Fink' and 'Big Lebowski,' though, just utter classics, I think. O Brother might be along my least favorites of theirs, though I still like it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>-matt mitchell</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The Man Who Wasn't There</DIV>
<DIV>O Brother, Where Art Thou</DIV>
<DIV>Fargo</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:29:00 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: Best Director's Duo
on 01.12.31 10:25 AM, Rob Allaert at roballaert@mac.com wrote:
> List,
>
> I hope all members took the time to watch some movies directed by the
> brothers Coen. These are the most important to me:
>
> The Man Who Wasn't There
> O Brother, Where Art Thou
> Fargo
But what about BLOOD SIMPLE ???
happyholidays,
RL
- ----------
*** Many THINGS 4 SALE *** [Updated: 01.12.01]
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/ChipsInCashing.html
- ----------
[ All of the below and much more at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k ]
Sessionographies :
CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies :
COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.
Samuel Beckett Eulogy; Baseball & the 10,000 Things; Time Stops; LOVETORN;
HARD BOIL; LUCILLE, a Reverential Journal of the Care of the Beloved Hag--
ETC.,
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:44:10 +0100 (CET)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: Best Director's Duo
Hi,
> I hope all members took the time to watch some
> movies directed by the
> brothers Coen.
Sure! "Miller's Crossing". I should've included that
among my 2001 favorite discoveries.
Best,
EfrΘn del Valle
n.p: Ennio Morricone "Mondo Morricone"
_______________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger
Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:15:07 -0700
From: Dan Frank Kuehn <smokey@laplaza.org>
Subject: Another LYNCH question -
Any of you insiders -
Now that David Lynch is reissuing his classics, is there any chance in
hell for a director's cut of the much-maligned(but incredibly awesome,
in my opinion) DUNE? I hear it was originally about 3 hours, before it
was pared down for commercial release....
Dan in Taos
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:19:37 +1030
From: "Michael Vandelaar" <mikerita@ihug.com.au>
Subject: Happy New Year
Let me be the first (!?) to wish you all a Happy New Year. It's been 2002
for over 10 hours already here in Australia.
I do more lurking than posting ... but it has to be the most interesting
listserv around.
As for John Oswald's plunderings ... I think he did a great job with
'GRAYFOLDED', the 'remix' of Grateful Dead's 'Dark Star'. Does it sound
dated? Not to the ears of this 40 something hippy :-)
Cheers,
Michael
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:21:47 -0500
From: ahorton <ahorton@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: plunderphonics/etc.
>To me, it's Oswalds MIXING that makes him amazing. Throwing things
>together isn't hard, really... making them fit together is.
That's the whole point; Oswald doesn't mix them at all; they're literally
"thrown together" with no form or function. A good comparison would be the
recent Avalanches record, "Since I left you", which is 100% sample-based, from
little hits and noises down to extended riffs. It's not a terrific record, but
it's a great pop record. Even though they're working with (supposedly) 900+
samples, it all fits together nicely. Oswald just sort of "throws everything
together."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:17:24 -0600
From: Jon Mooneyham <fate@telepath.com>
Subject: RE: plunderphonics/etc.
> >To me, it's Oswalds MIXING that makes him amazing. Throwing things
>>together isn't hard, really... making them fit together is.
>
>That's the whole point; Oswald doesn't mix them at all; they're literally
>"thrown together" with no form or function.
I'm sorry, but no, that is simply not true. Because Oswald eschews
standard signposts like a nice, steady 4/4 beat doesn't mean his
pieces are formless OR functionless. He's often keying in to other
aspects of the source material: vocal phrasing, textures, context,
contrasts, &c.; then deploys a variety of techniques to manipulate
the source: multilayering, varispeed, juxtaposition, blah blah blah=8A
They're hardly "thrown together". You shouldn't blithely dismiss his
work just because you can't tap your tootsies or shake your groove
thing to it.
>A good comparison would be the
>recent Avalanches record, "Since I left you", which is 100% sample-based, f=
rom
>little hits and noises down to extended riffs. It's not a terrific record, =
but
>it's a great pop record. Even though they're working with (supposedly) 900+
>samples, it all fits together nicely. Oswald just sort of "throws everythin=
g
>together."
Not a good comparison, even though I own and enjoy the Avalanches
album. Their work is far more along the lines of Coldcut or Hank
Shocklee's work for Public Enemy - i.e., eclectic samples massaged
into (chiefly) 4/4 grooves - whereas Oswald's aesthetic kindred are
Negativland, the Tape Beatles/Public Works, and similar merry
pranksters (check out detritus.net).
Happy New Year, all y'all,
Jon M.
NP: Herbert, _Bodily Functions_
NR: Martin Amis, _London Fields_
- --
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #667
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