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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, October 2 2001       Volume 03 : Number 581



In this issue:
-
       Re: INCUS CDRs
       Fwd: Re: Zorn/Fantomas/Bungle (too long)
       Fwd: new Zorn fan, and intro;
       Re: Jazz History
       Re: Jazz History
       Re: Jazz History
       Re: Jazz History
       Re: Jazz History

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:42:30 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: INCUS CDRs

>I am confused about the difference between a cdr and an ordinary
>cd, when the cdr only contains music.  In this case, a cdr is a cd.
>Both play music on any old cd player,

Actually CD-Rs sometimes won't work on certain players, especially older ones.  There are physical differences between the two:  CDs are pressed aluminum (usually) while CD-Rs are burned into a base material.  The advantage to CD-R is that anybody with the right equipment (quite cheap nowadays) can run off some discs in their spare time; the disadvantage is that this is impractical if you want to do a few hundred.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:59:22 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Zorn/Fantomas/Bungle (too long)

> I haven't heard their first one, but on the Amazon
> site (Germany or US) there
> were some awful reviews, so I decided not to buy it.
> So can you guys and gals recommend it to me if I
> like "Torture Garden" and
> hardcore metal in general?
>
> patRice

patrice, in that case I think you should definitely go
out and buy it this afternoon!!

Also, I would like to recommend the new Ruins live on
Tzadik that i just heard for the first time. Such an
amazing work, maybe a bit overwhelming though (almost
70 minutes of really crazy material). Their
"Classical" and "HArdrock" medleys deserve a prize.
Surprisingly, I also loved Laswell's "Filmtracks
2000". It's the first time I'm impressed by this guy's
work. I found there's a real balance between
electronica and world music, a blend I've never
enjoyed before. The melodies are really beautiful.
Hope not to get into Laswell's unfinisable
discography.

Best,

EfrΘn (who should get back to work and stop giving
useless recommendations)

_______________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:41:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: new Zorn fan, and intro;

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In a message dated 10/2/01 3:30:59 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Good decision, Andrew. They are both fantastic releases.
Like someone else already pointed out: make sure you get the "Big Gundown 15th
Anniversary" issue that came out on Tzadik. >>

However, stop the cd after track 10 the first time you listen.  Then if you
want go back and listen to the bonus tracks.

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Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:17:09 +0200
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Subject: Re: new Zorn fan, and intro;
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andrew wrote:

> Thanks for the help, everyone; I'm a huge Morricone fan, so i'm going to
> check out "the big gundown", and "elegy" sounds great as well.

Good decision, Andrew. They are both fantastic releases.
Like someone else already pointed out: make sure you get the "Big Gundown 15th
Anniversary" issue that came out on Tzadik.

>
>
> Then, it's on to the Filmworks series...i love the first one, and I hear
> number 4 is great.

Can't remember right now which is which, but I do remember that the one that
has "Pablo" on it is very good. I feel that you might like this track; very
laid-back. (As far as I remember, Zorn wrote in the liner notes that this was
one of his best pieces to date.)

>
> What about Naked City's "Grand Guignol"? I only have the self-titled
> one...how does "GG' compare?

Personally I feel that all the Naked City releases are very different from one
another; and all of them worth having.
"Grand Guignol" starts off with a 17-minute improvised (or game?) piece - can't
remember exactly...
Then there are about eight tracks that are re-arrangements of classical pieces
by Debussy, Orlando Di Lasso (sp?), and some others.
After those tracks you get all the "Torture Garden" tracks, minus the ones that
were already featured on the self-titled debut album.
I also recommend you check out NC's "Radio", if you enjoy "The Gift" so much.


> Same with "Music for children: music romance 1"- i hear it's a lot noisier
> than the other two music romance albums. What's the word on this album?

If I remember correctly, this is the one featuring the band Prelapse, playing
some previously unrecorded "Torture Garden" era pieces; I did not like the
sound of Prelapse at all. There was something missing.
There's also a, weird-ish, I feel, classical piece - violin, percussion and ???
(can't remember). Still don't like it that much...
Also a piece dedicated to Edgard Varese; for wind-machines. Sounds interesting,
but I can't listen to it too often...

Hope this helps.

patRice


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:12:51 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz History

>
> But that's exactly my point; there's no correlation between an artist's
> ability to make something accesible/easily consumable to the masses, and
> their contribution to the history of the artform. George Straight has done
> absolutely nothing to further the boundaries of Country music; one could
> argue that he's actually done harm to the genre!

I don't  think music has to push boundaries in order to be worthwhile.  This
is like saying Tommy Flanagan is unworthy.

 Sure, ol' George has played
> pop music with a country face on it (go ahead and lump in Garth, Faith Hill,
> Shania, etc.), and made that particular package accessible to people that
> want something with a little twang in it, but in the long history of
> "country" music (go ahead and start with Child's collected ballads, then
> continue through the Carters, Harry Smith's anthologies and the Lomax's
> recordings, and the country stars of the 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.), Straight
> hasn't furthered the art one bit.

I woukldn't put George in the Garth category.  George actually does country
music.  And, incidentally, I would say that the production standards of his
records was a new thing to a traditional western swing-based act.


 He's simply packaged up cliches ("born
> country!") and made them accessible. What of songwriters like Jeff Tweedy
> and Jay Farrar (of Uncle Tupelo together, recently of Wilco and Son Volt,
> respectively) who concocted songs that were undeniably "country", but also
> contained themes, aesthetics, and even SOUNDS (mellotrons, vocoders,
> analogue synths) that were literally at odds with country music.

Yeah, but Wilco sucks.  And they are repacking cliches, just less obvious
ones.  But Buffalo Springfield cliches are cliches too.

 What of the
> Handsome Family, who bring a Cole Porter-esque sensibility to songs that can
> only be described as 100% "traditional" country songs, yet contain lyrics
> that are violent, maudlin mini-stories, dripping of Poe and Gorey? Then,
> there's the fact that they record their songs in Pro-Tools, and often employ
> synthetic instruments. What of Johnny Dowd, who has re-invented the murder
> ballad? These artists aren't known to the "majority" of people, like
> Straight, Garth, Shania, etc., yet they have done far more for the genre
> than those "mainstream" artists.
>
> Following the rationale that Krall has made that music accessible, is Kenny
> G also an important figure in the history of Jazz? He's a lot like Zorn...
> (wink).
>
In about five or six years, when this crop of music school freshman
graduates, you're gonna find out that Kenny G was important.  You aren't
gpnna like it, and neither am I, but he's definitely assured a place in
history.
>
Parker's
> Magic Huey Orchestra (i fucked-up the name, but i can't quite remember it
> right now) re-invented the "big band."

For whom?
>

> Great point. My argument "for" Mehldau is actually similar to yours for
> Diana Krall, but there's a crucial difference. Krall is serving re-hashed
> standards (which are tired, "tried-but-true" songs that "everyone knows") to
> predominantly complacent listeners. In the same sense that, say, Alicia
> Keyes allows them to "add a little R&B to their collection", Krall or Kenny
> G allow them to "add a little easy-listenin' jazz" to their musical
> collection. No new avenues are opened; the listener isn't compelled to seek
> out more, denser jazz; they're happy with their "token" jazz album.

One takes small steps before one buys Giant Steps.  My first jazz album was
Mose Allison's Seventh Son.  Not dense.  But for someone with a largely
country/blues background, it was all songs I knew by heart, which opened the
field for me.
>
> Mehldau is similar- he makes slightly-avant piano jazz accessible to "rock
> kids." I'm the music director at a college radio station, and I can't tell
> you how many kids have used Mehldau's "radiohead covers" as stepping-stones
> to the world of jazz. In that sense, Mehldau's appropriation of Radiohead's
> songs acts as a "gateway drug" to the world of jazz; which is inherently
> denser than the world of rock. =)  Kids hear Mehldau relating to something
> that they relate to; radiohead- and they begin to listen to the way that he
> works with the song. They check out his other songs; they begin to truly
> listen. They come to me, asking "this is great; what next"? I refer them to
> Shipp, to Uri Caine, to Zorn and also to Monk- they begin to explore on
> their own.

Is Zorn less relevant or more when he covers songs everybody knows, and
movie themes no less?


>
> I guess my argument for Mehldau, over Krall, is that Mehldau makes the music
> (jazz) accessible to those that then venture forth within the genre-
> learning about it, appreciating it. Krall simply takes the genre, condenses
> it into an easily purchasable, easily digestible package, and serves it up
> to the complacent listener. (of course, this is a personal judgement, but
> that's what opinions are about).

Why one over the other? And what's wrong with making desert music? If she
was claiming to be the next Coltrane, you may have a point.  But her
strength is something else, and she does it well enough.  You could level
the same accusation at a great many people, but the bottom line is that some
people are better at making desert music.  And there's a place for it.
>
> On a similar note (to the Mehldau rationale), Uri Caine is making jazz/dense
> funk accessible to hip hop fans; through his work with Ahmir "Questlove" of
> the Roots. The Philadelphia Experiment album has sold heaps at the store I
> work at, mostly to hip hop kids who are really looking for something less
> ephemeral than the latest MC/producer combo. The association- with
> Questlove- allows them to enjoy Caine's stellar nu-funk.

Uri has been one of my closest friends for years, but I don't really like
that album.
>
best --
skip h
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:29:56 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz History

>From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>

> >> Diana Krall
> >
> > I have to take issue with this one; she's about as essential to the
>history
> > of jazz as marsha ball.

>Whether or not you like someone or what they do doesn't mean they haven't
>made a mark.  Ms Krall has been bashed by people who claim to be really
>smart or really hip, but those people tend to overlook the fact that she's
>popularized a certain segment of the American songbook and done so in a
>jazz
>way.

That may have been true at one point in her career, but with her last two
albums, especially the newest one, she has pretty much dropped any semblance
of 'jazz' playing and moved into the AOR pop market, though I suspect that's
more the work of Universal's mighty marketing machine. As an indication of
her audience appeal, I was playing a Chris Connor date in the store where I
work, someone asked me who it was and when I told them, the answer was
"Well, she's sure trying to sound like Diana Krall!" I'm not noting this to
prove I'm really smart or hip (I actually liked her Nat King Cole album),
just to point out the really negative side of mass marketed music, where the
artist (willingly?) loses control of their work, while their airbrushed
image is shoved into the public face to the exclusion of so many other
worthwhile musicians in order to 'shift'  countless units of essentially
vapid 'product'. The idea that these popular artists actually lead casual
listeners deeper into the music is groundless...

np: Gubaidulina Canticle Of The Sun

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:37:35 -0400
From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz History

Those of us here in Canada who have had a chance to follow Ms. Krall's career
from the days when she was opening shows with her trio can attest to how
"air-brushed" both her physical image and her music have become.

Back then, she was a better-than-average barrelhouse-style pianist and a fair
singer. Pleasant looking, but nothing like she appears today.
Unfortunately, as her singing has taken on more distinctive characteristics,
her piano playing has taken a backseat to both her lyrics and her image.

It was interesting a couple of summers ago when (already featured in Time,
etc.) she barely drew notice booked fourth on the bill at a Lilith Fair show
here in Ottawa.

James Hale

thomas chatterton wrote:

>
> That may have been true at one point in her career, but with her last two
> albums, especially the newest one, she has pretty much dropped any semblance
> of 'jazz' playing and moved into the AOR pop market


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 10:55:04 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz History

>> From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
>
>>>> Diana Krall
>>>
>>> I have to take issue with this one; she's about as essential to the
>> history
>>> of jazz as marsha ball.
>
>> Whether or not you like someone or what they do doesn't mean they haven't
>> made a mark.  Ms Krall has been bashed by people who claim to be really
>> smart or really hip, but those people tend to overlook the fact that she's
>> popularized a certain segment of the American songbook and done so in a
>> jazz
>> way.
>
> That may have been true at one point in her career, but with her last two
> albums, especially the newest one, she has pretty much dropped any semblance
> of 'jazz' playing and moved into the AOR pop market, though I suspect that's
> more the work of Universal's mighty marketing machine. As an indication of
> her audience appeal, I was playing a Chris Connor date in the store where I
> work, someone asked me who it was and when I told them, the answer was
> "Well, she's sure trying to sound like Diana Krall!" I'm not noting this to
> prove I'm really smart or hip (I actually liked her Nat King Cole album),
> just to point out the really negative side of mass marketed music, where the
> artist (willingly?) loses control of their work, while their airbrushed
> image is shoved into the public face to the exclusion of so many other
> worthwhile musicians in order to 'shift'  countless units of essentially
> vapid 'product'. The idea that these popular artists actually lead casual
> listeners deeper into the music is groundless...
>
I agree with you on most points, except that "airbrushed image...exclusion
of worthwhile musicians" line.  If Tim Berne looked like Ricky Martin and
got signed to Columbia right now, there'd be a million photos of him with
his shirt off everywhere you look.  Miles Davis definitely made sure his
photos were glamorous back in the day.  I don't see the crime of using image
to put music over.

As for the artist losing control, this happens generally when the label has
spent thousands and is now smelling millions.

As for popular artists leading casual listeners deeper, I'd say about 5% of
casual listeners do go as far as to buy something else less famous because
of that one famous bit of source material (20% if it's danceable, ie the
recent Louis Prima phenom).  5% of Diana Kral's sales would be a huge jump
for the average Chris Connor reissue (and the Bethlehem stuff is really
excellent).

best --
skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 11:02:16 -0700
From: Skip Heller <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jazz History

About 2 yrs ago, I finally got to see Diana Krall live, at the Monterey Jazz
Fest.  Uri Caine was playing on one site, MMW in another, and the mainstage
featured many "big jazz groups" that grace ownbeat covers etc.  On the
whole, every piano player sounded like he was doing Herbie, the tenor
players, Joe and/or Wayne, drummers in Tony/Jack/Elvin World.  It was like a
jazz version of the Stray Cats performed by four groups -- blatant
revivalism posing as the real thing.   Then, the Diana Krall trio came on,
no drums, girl singer.  After hearing four groups play the Holy Writ of 60s
Miles-ism, she was absolutely punk rock in her refusal to attempt wholesale
Nefertit-ism.

Jazz is so often the sound of peer pressure, and, frankly, I thought the
fact that she played what she played how she plays it (and her execution as
a pianist was spotless that day) was a fine thing.  Her material is
innocuous enough, certainly well-performed.  I think her fame really pisses
people off more than the fact that she looks good and plays a conventional
style.

skip h
>


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #581
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