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2001-08-22
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #540
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, August 22 2001 Volume 03 : Number 540
In this issue:
-
Fujii/Feldman
Re: Fujii/Feldman
Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
if Coltrane had lived...
Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
summer reading
Re: Fujii/Feldman
mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
Re: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
Re: summer reading
RE:groundbreaking
Re: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:02:54 -0400
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Fujii/Feldman
Just catching up on some overlooked discs from the past few months.
Has anyone else heard the duets by Satoko Fujii and Mark Feldman? They
are beautiful.
James Hale
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:28:52 +0200
From: Rob Allaert <Rob@llaert.NU>
Subject: Re: Fujii/Feldman
Tell us some more
James Hale wrote:
> duets by Satoko Fujii and Mark Feldman
greetings,
Rob @ risk
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:47 -0500
From: "Samuel Quentin" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
i can definitely think of examples of artists who started out good and just
got better and better and better. and more experiemental.
this pops into my mind because i think it is the most desirable of
situations for an artist to start out with great chops and a daring,
experimental output that just multiplies in these respects with age.
a lot of people seem to like Coltrane's hard bop period (as far as jazz
radio stations and Ken Burn's types go) but i think his stuff only got
better as time went on and he headed more in the direction of a more
'freeish' jazz.
i think Milford Graves is better now and has a more solid edge than ever.
and i also think the quality of Anthony Braxton's work has improved and
covered a more meaningful ground as time has gone on.
i guess i appreciate this because that's what i would love to do... create
my masterpiece or best work two days before i die and be at my peak.
-samuel
With all this talk of jazz pianists, Zorn, and
Stravinsky, I was thinking about composers/artists
whose breakthroughs, or more specifically, whose most
radical work, came _later_ in their careers...maybe
even not until the end. I remember reading a Kyle
Gann article dealing with this, perhaps about Morton
Feldman, can't remember. Can anyone think of examples
of this? I mean, John Wall is doing more and more
interesting things, and apparently he didn't even pick
up a sampler until mid-life. Wasn't some of Luigi
Nono's most unique material done the last ten years of
life, when he (CMIIW) really broke from serialism and
started doing an intense and more apolitical quiet
music? I'm kicking around a few names that might
stand out as exceptions to the prodigious young
talent.
- -----s
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:01:49 -0500
From: "Samuel Quentin" <nonintention@hotmail.com>
Subject: if Coltrane had lived...
....if Coltrane would have lived, would he have backslid?
man, i've asked myself and others that question a thousand times. i just
think about how different it would all be if he had gone on in his
constantly searching way for another 40-50 years and it just gets me soooo
excited... what would have happened!!!?
but the thought of him just going on to play crappy rehash bop in 1985
with the likes of Marsalis... well... maybe Coltrane would have never
impacted my life the way he has and i wouldn't be on this list and perhaps
wouldn't even be a musician. so i suppose i'll just let him rest in peace.
-Samuel
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:05:46 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
a lot of people seem to like Coltrane's hard bop period (as far as jazz
> radio stations and Ken Burn's types go)
I'm neither a Ken Burns type nor a jazz radio station listener, but I happen
to prefer Coltrane's hard bop stuff to any of his other periods. And I wake
up every morning and, before I do much of anything else, practice about 20
choruses of "Giant Steps" at quarter note=240. Where do I fit in to your
pinheaded stereotyping?
skip heller
np: Malo -- "Suavecito"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:05:10 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:47 -0500 "Samuel Quentin" wrote:
>
> i can definitely think of examples of artists who started out good and just
> got better and better and better. and more experiemental.
> this pops into my mind because i think it is the most desirable of
> situations for an artist to start out with great chops and a daring,
Desirable? According to what criteria?
> experimental output that just multiplies in these respects with age.
> a lot of people seem to like Coltrane's hard bop period (as far as jazz
> radio stations and Ken Burn's types go) but i think his stuff only got
> better as time went on and he headed more in the direction of a more
> 'freeish' jazz.
> i think Milford Graves is better now and has a more solid edge than ever.
> and i also think the quality of Anthony Braxton's work has improved and
> covered a more meaningful ground as time has gone on.
Braxton? Really? I see more and polite reviews of what Braxton is doing these
days (the wishy-washy kind, which these days means more and more that you be
well advised to save your precious $15) which would make me think that
Braxton's fans have some mixed feelings concerning his recent output. I could
be wrong, but I don't see Braxton building a new audience with what he is
doing these days. Looks like the converted are still behind, and the rest is
outside almost indifferent (or listening to the older stuff). I am of course
talking of his fairly recent output (past 6-10 years).
> i guess i appreciate this because that's what i would love to do... create
> my masterpiece or best work two days before i die and be at my peak.
Not to discourage you, but being creative in his old age is the exception,
not the rule. At best we can expect to understand better the world around
us. That has little to do with creativity...
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:13:29 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
>
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:47 -0500 "Samuel Quentin" wrote:
>>
>> i can definitely think of examples of artists who started out good and just
>> got better and better and better. and more experiemental.
>> this pops into my mind because i think it is the most desirable of
>> situations for an artist to start out with great chops and a daring,
> Not to discourage you, but being creative in his old age is the exception,
> not the rule. At best we can expect to understand better the world around
> us. That has little to do with creativity...
>
There are some cats who live out on the limb as they get older. Uri Caine
is 47 and definitely at his most fertile. Improvising is generally a young
person's sport (look at Lee Morgan, Dizzy Gillespie, Paul Bley etc), but
there have been artists who reinvent at least part of what they do and maybe
enter new vital period -- Mingus, Carla Bley, Glenn Gould, and Zappa
(Synclavier period) leap to mind as people who made sharp turns that
improved their creative road.
It depends on who we're speaking of, but the numbers tell us to bet on the
young.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:19:52 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: groundbreaking: the inverse
On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:13:29 -0700 Skip Heller wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:48:47 -0500 "Samuel Quentin" wrote:
> >>
> >> i can definitely think of examples of artists who started out good and just
> >> got better and better and better. and more experiemental.
> >> this pops into my mind because i think it is the most desirable of
> >> situations for an artist to start out with great chops and a daring,
>
> > Not to discourage you, but being creative in his old age is the exception,
> > not the rule. At best we can expect to understand better the world around
> > us. That has little to do with creativity...
I specially meant that if you have done little creative things in your youth,
there is a microscopic chance that it will change in your old age.
Concerning artists, it is more about breakthroughs (which happens when they
are young) and on which we had a discussion a few years ago.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:16:02 -0400
From: David Keffer <keffer@planetc.com>
Subject: summer reading
Best authors I read this summer (and hadn't read before)
Taruho Inagaki - One Thousand One-Second Stories
This one is the most amazing. Published in Japanese in 1923. Translated
to English in 1998. This book is described as "an early modernist gem".
But what is the most amazing thing about it is that elements that the
American post-modern writers of the 60s and 70s (e.g. Donald Barthelme and
Robert Coover) strove to attain are captured perfectly here, half a century
earlier. I read this book and I just said to myself, "Coover's Pricksongs
and Descants is a pale imitation of this book." This book is unbelievable
in how good it is and how misplaced in time it is, and how absolutely
unrecognized it seems to be.
Yasushi Inoue - Loulan
This guy is pretty famous but I had never read him. He gives a new
definition to historical fiction. His scholarly specialty seems to be
China, pre 1000 A.D. It reads like a cross between a narrative and a
history text. What he doesn't know historically, he makes up but you can't
tell where one starts and the other ends. The tone is unique because it is
a sad, predetermined tone. The protagonists are fated to meet their doom,
which naturally they are since Inoue has studied the modern-day
archeological remains of the peoples, and knows that they did indeed meet
such a fate.
Reinaldo Arenas - The Graveyard of the Angels
In the 1980s Avon/Bard published a line of paperbacks showcasing the best
Latin American authors of the second half of the twentieth century
translated from Spanish or Portuguese into English. These ranged from
Nobel laureates, Gabriel Garcia Marquez & Miguel Angel Asturias, to other
well-known literary figures such as Jorge Amado and Mario Vargas Llosa, to
lesser known authors. When I see a book in this line (necessarily at used
book stores) I buy it on sight because experience has taught me that 80 or
90% of these books are fantastic (of the 40 or so I have read). (The best
are by Jorge Ibarguengoitia & Joao Ubaldo Ribeiro, which read as quickly
and easily as any contemporary literature I have encountered.) Anyway,
this summer I read a few more in this series. "The Graveyard of the
Angels" is a retelling of a Cuban novel that was published and promptly
forgotten in 1882. Arenas retells it with both the super-readability and
the combination of fantasy/realism that has come to be best represented by
recent Latin American literature. (Not as good as Ibarguengoitia's
"Two Crimes" or "The Dead Girls" but pretty good all the same.)
Anyway, I'll stop here.
David K.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:32:32 -0400
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Fujii/Feldman
It's on a label I'm not all that familiar with: EWE (EWCC 0006).
15 pieces, including seven duets with Feldman. Satoko overdubs piano on
a few pieces.
Satoko is playing more in her Paul Bley vein here; in fact, it reminds
me a lot of her debut solo recording.
She and Feldman fit together very well.
It's called "April Showers".
Rob Allaert wrote:
> Tell us some more
>
> James Hale wrote:
>
> > duets by Satoko Fujii and Mark Feldman
>
> greetings,
> Rob @ risk
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:45:10 -0400
From: David Keffer <keffer@planetc.com>
Subject: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
On the subject of "mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.", Matthew
Mitchell posted a contrary opinion on the merits of Tommy Flanagan (in
response to favorable reviews posted by Jon Abbey and Steve Smith). I
don't have an opinion on Tommy Flanagan one way or the other, but I was
happy to hear two sides of the argument. Kudos to all involved for
educating me from both sides of the fence. This diversity of opinion
epitomizes the value of the zorn list.
But the post that followed (in response to Matthew's post) represents the
worse tendencies of the zorn-list. Statements such as: "I've personally
never heard you play, so I am by no means saying you're ignorant or
anything." obviously insinuates the opposite of the literal meaning of the
statement. "You're antagonistic remarks re Uri..." By what criterion is
someone's opinion about music judged an "antagonistic remark"? Finally,
comments like, "As to the second paragraph -- not Bill Evans or Denny
Zeitlin? Now you're telling me something about yourself" is a personal
attack.
This response to Matthew had no intellectual content or merit. It simply
is a cowardly personal attack on someone who had the courage to voice an
unpopular opinion. And Matthew quietly swallowed the insulting response
without reply on the zorn list. First I would like to publicly commend
Matthew for posting an opinion which he clearly knew beforehand would be
unpopular. Second, I would like to ask the members of the zorn list to
make conscious attempts to keep the discussion on the subject and above the
level of personal attacks.
David "ready to get flamed" K.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:08:16 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
> But the post that followed (in response to Matthew's post) represents the
> worse tendencies of the zorn-list. Statements such as: "I've personally
> never heard you play, so I am by no means saying you're ignorant or
> anything." obviously insinuates the opposite of the literal meaning of the
> statement. "You're antagonistic remarks re Uri..." By what criterion is
> someone's opinion about music judged an "antagonistic remark"? Finally,
> comments like, "As to the second paragraph -- not Bill Evans or Denny
> Zeitlin? Now you're telling me something about yourself" is a personal
> attack.
>
> This response to Matthew had no intellectual content or merit. It simply
> is a cowardly personal attack on someone who had the courage to voice an
> unpopular opinion. And Matthew quietly swallowed the insulting response
> without reply on the zorn list. First I would like to publicly commend
> Matthew for posting an opinion which he clearly knew beforehand would be
> unpopular. Second, I would like to ask the members of the zorn list to
> make conscious attempts to keep the discussion on the subject and above the
> level of personal attacks.
>
> David "ready to get flamed" K.
>
>
David --
>
Actually, Matt and I have interacted on and off this list on an "agree to
strongly disagree" basis enough that, if I say something like that
literally, he takes it literally. I never have heard him play. But I also
know enough about his taste to not assume ignorance. We have discussed the
email in question since it was posted, and I have not for a second gotten
the impression that he took any offense by it. We actually got deeper into
the issue. And my feelings toward him are completely friendly (even if he
never unearthed that Monk fakebook).
Matthew, by the way, is a pianist, and a remark about "Not Denny or Bill"
does say something about a pianist and his relationship to things that are
inherently pianistic (same goes for certain types of remarks about Oscar
Peterson). It's not a dig. It's an observation about how a pianist sees
the instrument.
Finally, Matt has made some really, really nasty remarks about Uri Caine's
playing. I don't hold it against him, but I also probably won't let him off
the hook anytime soon.
I won't flame you, but I will say this -- don't assume certain motivations
are in place when you don't know the relationship in question. I respect
Matt a lot, but I no would no more hold my tongue in this instance than I
would expect him to hold his.
skip heller
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:10:05 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: summer reading
Anyone else read SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: AN ISLAND ON THE LAND by Carey
McWilliams? It's as smart a piece of anthropology as I have ever read, but
reads like a great novel (lots of larger than life characters, corruption
etc). Great beach book.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:27:39 +0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE:groundbreaking
>From: "josephneff" <jneff@visuallink.com>
> ....John Coltrane continued to break new ground up to the end of
>his life. ....if Coltrane would have lived, would he have backslid?
>
A subject for endless speculation! What we do know is that Trane was playing
the 'electric' saxophone (the one that Eddie Harris briefly popularised) in
private, and had also played a couple of gigs with Wes Montgomery in the
band...ultimately it seems that certain artists give so much in pursuit of
their 'art' that they are prematurely doomed.
And, on the reading thread, anyone familiar with the German writer W.G.
Sebald, author of Emigrants, Rings Of Saturn, and his newest Vertigo?
np: Jackie McLean 4 5 and 6
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:53:59 -0400
From: "Matthew Mitchell" <matmi@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I of course didn't clarify and say LIVING american composer, which is what
I meant. Can't you read my mind? :)
Also, I was thinking more along the lines of notated music, the
'contemporary classical' thing, whatever you want to call it...
Well, just off the top, there's John Cage, Charles Mingus, Conlon
Nancarrow,
Charles Ives, Harry Partch, Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk, John Zorn,
Samuel Barber, John Coltrane, George Crumb, Herbie Nichols, Morton Feldman,
Steve Reich, Jimi Hendrix, Charles Ruggles, Frank Zappa, Gordon Gano, Miles
Davis, Bob Dylan, Terry Riley, Lou Reed, Lamonte Young, Charles Parker,
Ingram Marshall, Gordon Monahan, Robert Johnson, Lennie Tristano, Willie
Dixon, James Brown, Les Baxter, etc. etc. etc. why I believe I could on for
days...
np: Stravinsky Rite Of Spring Kirov Orchestra Valery Gergiev
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
- -
- --- Matthew Mitchell
- --- matmi@earthlink.net
- --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1251">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>I of course didn't clarify and say LIVING american composer, which is what I meant. Can't you read my mind? :)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also, I was thinking more along the lines of notated music, the 'contemporary classical' thing, whatever you want to call it...</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Well, just off the top, there's John Cage, Charles Mingus, Conlon Nancarrow, </DIV>
<DIV>Charles Ives, Harry Partch, Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk, John Zorn, </DIV>
<DIV>Samuel Barber, John Coltrane, George Crumb, Herbie Nichols, Morton Feldman, </DIV>
<DIV>Steve Reich, Jimi Hendrix, Charles Ruggles, Frank Zappa, Gordon Gano, Miles </DIV>
<DIV>Davis, Bob Dylan, Terry Riley, Lou Reed, Lamonte Young, Charles Parker, </DIV>
<DIV>Ingram Marshall, Gordon Monahan, Robert Johnson, Lennie Tristano, Willie </DIV>
<DIV>Dixon, James Brown, Les Baxter, etc. etc. etc. why I believe I could on for </DIV>
<DIV>days...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>np: Stravinsky Rite Of Spring Kirov Orchestra Valery Gergiev</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>_________________________________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A href="http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp">http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P></P></FONT>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--- Matthew Mitchell</DIV>
<DIV>--- <A href="mailto:matmi@earthlink.net">matmi@earthlink.net</A></DIV>
<DIV>--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #540
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