> People don't feel classic Coltrane, Brotzman, Miles or Louis because any of
> them blew longest, loudest, or fastest but because they brought a unique
> sensibility and sensitivity to their instruments that's communicated for
> listeners to commune with. Maybe the majority of musicians in this
> programmed age, Zorn included, have lost touch with the distinctive
> qualities that attract(ed) audiences to their art in the first place.
>
Ground-breaking music can and does spring from an artists' sincere feelings about expressing themselves. I'd definitely agree that too many times, artists worry about their work getting staid and always try to 'progress.' On the
other hand, it isn't any better for an artist to be doing the same exact thing every time out. Ideally, there's some kind of balance in between, which most artists have a lot of difficulty achieving.
I'd be curious to hear what people here think about how conscious great artists are about how revolutionary their works are. From interviews I've done and read, it seems that hindsight helps a lot but many times, they were just
determinedly going down the path of self-expression.
Best,
Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:19:06 -0500
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <rpleshar@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn's next major Project
Just wondering, how much groundbreaking music "should" we expect from
someone?
Is one revolutionary idea per career enough? None? I for one am satisfied
with any number from zero to infinity as long as I find the music enjoyable
on some level.
Also, I sometimes think that Zorn's game/chance/conducted/structured
improvisational music was the last groundbreaking musical idea at all. And
one could argue that that was just a cobbling together of previous ideas
(not that I would make that argument myself). What has been groundbreaking
since then? I guess we could consider the laptop improvisation folks, but
that really seems to me to be improvisation (an established idea) with new
instruments. So, what were the total of the really groundbreaking musical
ideas of, say, the past century?
Off the top of my head (certainly forgetting crucial ones!):
serialism?
"jazz" - collective improvisation? (improvisation is certainly as old as
music itself)
electrical instruments?
the studio and it's use as an instrument as well as a recording arena?
bebop?
free jazz?
free improvisation?
structured improvisation?
musique concrete / collage?
minimalism?
rock and roll?
punk?
I think I'm not really sure what groundbreaking is anymore, even. Or if it
matters at all. I know it doesn't matter at all to most people to whom
music is a background or afterthought.
Does making groundbreaking music matter to the people who are creating it?
Sometmes I'm sure it does, but sometimes I bet it's just the way something
worked out or maybe a happy accident.
Rob
At 10:39 AM 8/21/01 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 11:32:23 -0600 "M Pathos" wrote:
>>
>> "I think i can agree that as far as groundbreaking ideas are concerned.
. ."
>>
>>
>> I thought a fundamental tenet of postmodernism was the acknowledgement
that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>That makes sense only if you attribute any credibility of postmodernism...
>
>> there are no new ideas. To hell with "groundbreaking," why doesn't
somebody
>> ? anybody ? try to do something simple and sincere? That may sound naive,
>> but to do this well requires tremendous concentration, energy, and thought
>> the like of which isn't required just to splurt out some "new" loopy
>> pseudo-avant-garde mess.
>
>Why not, but Zorn came to recognition for significant groundbreaking music.
>You can't avoid that people who have been following him since almost the
>beginning whine for not finding anymore what attracted them in the first
>place.
>
> Patrice.
>
>-
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:25:47 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: important? groundbreaking? huh?
I always love these threads because I notice words like "important",
"innovative" etc being corralled in, as if to say something to the effect of
"Unless the music can be characterized as somehow apocolyptic, it's lesser
music."
A few paltry thoughts:
Mingus is, for instance, one of my favorite composers. He's important to
me. How much importance he has in the world outside my apartment is
negligable. The frisbee means more to Americans than "Goodbye Porkpie Hat".
I don't know that "groundbreaking" is all it's cracked up to be, nor am I
sure everyone needs the same ground broken for them. I'm sure Zorn's Sonny
Clark project seemed groundbreaking to a bunch of people who didn't know
about Sonny Clark. But to someone like Tommy Flanagan, Sonny Clark was old
news. And I've never seen a big proliferation of props on this list for TF
as a progressive force.
As for the debate about how much Masada we need, I think it's because
everyone is always looking to Zorn's "next concept" that the band is largely
unappreciated. They're a fine band whose records are generally more
entertaining than so much of what we get to hear. I think because Zorn's
name "means something", he's not allowed to break out of his job description
and mine a certain territory over a period of years.
skip heller
http://www.skipheller.com
np: Hank Mobley, SOUL STATION. Not groundbreaking, but a great record
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:29:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Theo Klaase <river_of_dogs@yahoo.com>
Subject: Naked City
- --0-1515686803-998422182=:67430
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
How come we get 5 live Masada CD's and no Naked City Live albums? They performed a number of songs live that never ended up on any album... Imagine the excitement this would drum up...
- -Theo
- ---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger.
- --0-1515686803-998422182=:67430
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<P> How come we get 5 live Masada CD's and no Naked City Live albums? They performed a number of songs live that never ended up on any album... Imagine the excitement this would drum up...</P>
<P>-Theo</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
Make <a href="http://phonecard.yahoo.com/">international calls</a> for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger.
- --0-1515686803-998422182=:67430--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 21:58:36 +0200
From: Rob Allaert <Rob@llaert.NU>
Subject: ComposersSeries
Are there people on the list who, by definition, buy every Tzadik
Composers Series release ? This seems to be a great idea for a rich person
?!
greetings,
Rob @ risk
np: Shine On You Crazy Diamond - Pt 1
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:14:23 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: important? groundbreaking? huh?
Don't know that I'd ever call Tommy Flanagan a progressive force, or
particularly groundbreaking for that matter. But I do know that on a good
night, he's the greatest living mainstream jazz pianist on the planet - and
he has lots of good nights.
During one two-week run at the Vanguard, I went to see him on six nights,
and would gladly have gone the other six if I could've. His trio with Peter
Washington and Lewis Nash was a perfectly tooled machine (to borrow a
seriously overused cliche), the likes of which I've literally never heard
live. It can be heard on the recent Blue Note set 'Sunset and the
Mockingbird,' recorded during the very two-week stint I mentioned. The
title tune, by Ellington, says more with just a few notes than many artists
will say in the course of a career.
Groundbreaking? Nah - though to his credit, he *was* the pianist on 'Giant
Steps,' and at age 70-something, he hasn't lost much of his technique. I
love it when he plays a typically verbose and labyrinthine Thad Jones tune,
then remarks offhand how playing Thad makes him wish he got paid by the
note. By now, you can count on that quip to come up probably once per set
for the rest of his days.
So maybe not groundbreaking. But life-affirming, yeah, you bet.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:22:52 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: important? groundbreaking? huh?
just to echo Steve's opinions here, I haven't seen Flanagan perform in a few
years, but when I was recently asked to name the greatest living jazz
musician, he was my nominee. I'd never call him a "progressive force", though.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:31:35 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: important? groundbreaking? huh?
My vote goes to Clark Terry, with Tommy a very close second. Barry Harris
still kills me, too.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
JonAbbey2@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:23 PM
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: important? groundbreaking? huh?
just to echo Steve's opinions here, I haven't seen Flanagan perform in a few
years, but when I was recently asked to name the greatest living jazz
musician, he was my nominee. I'd never call him a "progressive force",
though.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:46:20 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: important? groundbreaking? huh?
> My vote goes to Clark Terry, with Tommy a very close second. Barry Harris
> still kills me, too.
>
> Steve Smith
> ssmith36@sprynet.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
> JonAbbey2@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:23 PM
> To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: important? groundbreaking? huh?
>
>
> just to echo Steve's opinions here, I haven't seen Flanagan perform in a few
> years, but when I was recently asked to name the greatest living jazz
> musician, he was my nominee. I'd never call him a "progressive force",
> though.
>
> Jon
> www.erstwhilerecords.com
>
>
> -
>
>
> -
>
Hank Jones
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:07:54 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: RE: important? groundbreaking? huh?
Another outstanding suggestion. Still bummed that I missed him in June with
Joe Lovano at Birdland. The reviews were great.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Skip Heller
Hank Jones
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:57:14 -0400
From: "Matthew Mitchell" <matmi@earthlink.net>
Subject: mainstream jazz piano; Zorn in the 90's, etc.
- ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
To be honest, I'd always been baffled whenever people sang the praises of
Tommy Flanagan. He always sounded like he never really had anything
interesting to say, musically, and I even think his pianistic ability could be
called into question from time to time. He, Barry Harris, other similar
guys, they just seem to be rehashing Bud Powell, sprinkling in some token Monk
'quirkiness,' and then stopping there before ever getting to any sort of
original idea.
Frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to say that any piano players have a better
combination of technique, ideas, and innate musical sense than Herbie Hancock or
Keith Jarrett. Despite the forays by either of them outside mainstream
jazz, no one even comes close to them, as far as I'm concerned, when they choose
to play it.
As far as Zorn goes, I'd say that Hermetic Theatre was actually an
encouraging sign that he might do something at least slightly more interesting
sometime soon. Honestly, the only reason I'm even on the Zorn list at this
point is because I learn about so much interesting music from y'all, 99% of
that only tangentially having to do with Zorn. Yes, he's done
wonderful things: Spillane, Locus Solus, Grand Guignol, Heretic, Absinthe,
Duras/Duchamp, Elegy, Book of Heads.
The notion that he'd stand up to major composers of the 90's is fairly
dubious, though. As far as America goes, I can't even think offhand of an
American composer who's music I really like, with the exception of Elliott
Carter, whom I love.
BTW, I'm deeply immersed in Keiji Haino-land at the mo, both solo records
and Fushitsusha. He is simply jaw-droppingly amazing, AFAIC.
Watashi-Dake? and the hurdy-gurdy stuff simply blows me away...
<DIV>To be honest, I'd always been baffled whenever people sang the praises of Tommy Flanagan. He always sounded like he never really had anything interesting to say, musically, and I even think his pianistic ability could be called into question from time to time. He, Barry Harris, other similar guys, they just seem to be rehashing Bud Powell, sprinkling in some token Monk 'quirkiness,' and then stopping there before ever getting to any sort of original idea.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frankly, I'd be hard-pressed to say that any piano players have a better combination of technique, ideas, and innate musical sense than Herbie Hancock or Keith Jarrett. Despite the forays by either of them outside mainstream jazz, no one even comes close to them, as far as I'm concerned, when they choose to play it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As far as Zorn goes, I'd say that Hermetic Theatre was actually an encouraging sign that he might do something at least slightly more interesting sometime soon. Honestly, the only reason I'm even on the Zorn list at this point is because I learn about so much interesting music from y'all, 99% of that only tangentially having to do with Zorn. Yes, he's done wonderful things: Spillane, Locus Solus, Grand Guignol, Heretic, Absinthe, Duras/Duchamp, Elegy, Book of Heads. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The notion that he'd stand up to major composers of the 90's is fairly dubious, though. As far as America goes, I can't even think offhand of an American composer who's music I really like, with the exception of Elliott Carter, whom I love.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>BTW, I'm deeply immersed in Keiji Haino-land at the mo, both solo records and Fushitsusha. He is simply jaw-droppingly amazing, AFAIC. Watashi-Dake? and the hurdy-gurdy stuff simply blows me away...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-matt mitchell</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>NR: The Royal Family by William T. Vollmann</DIV>
