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2001-07-05
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #491
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, July 6 2001 Volume 03 : Number 491
In this issue:
-
Re: Bill Laswell
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: Bill Laswell
Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Maladoror Reviews
free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:29:06 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Laswell
kasra said:
> The first exposure I received to Bill Laswell was Material's "Hallucination
> Engine. I was wondering if anybody would tell me about any other Laswell
> recordings with similar musical explorations.
>
Another Laswell project called Divination sounds like it would be up your alley: Distill is a good record.
For the Burroughs connection there also, try Material's Seven Souls.
Best,
Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 20:40:18
From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
>How prevalent is this practice? Keith Rowe talks
>about it in that WIRE interview like everybody's doing
>it now, but who is everybody? Is there a surplus of
>tabloe-top playing, or is it just predictably bad on
>the (rare) occasions that it does happen? (Excepting
>the really great players---Frith, Drumm, Rowe,
>Montera, Tammen, etc.). It still somehow seems like a
>pretty exotic practice to me; I can't see it having
>"caught on"...
well, I guess it isn't that prevalent, but i can associate it with some of
the absolute worst free improv i have ever witnessed. not by big names, but
rather by local-type opening acts that seem to still be at a not-so-advanced
or well-defined stage in their playing (note: if I were to ever do an improv
show, this would definitely include me! so i keep it in the bedroom for
now...).
it is the same kind of impression i often get when seeing a percussionist
resort to the wet-finger-on-the-tom-tom or to bowing the cymbal -- it often
seems that these extended or "unusual" techniques are considered ends in
themselves, as proof that these people are "really improvising." certain
people, of course, use these sounds in a very musical way (tom rainey being
one recent example of a drummer i've seen doing it live), but it often just
seems arbitrary. i mean, a wet finger on a tom-tom in itself is not THAT
interesting of a sound!
i have to admit, also, that i am not personally a huge fan of the
acknowledged table-top masters -- rowe or frith, for example, so that may
have an impact on how i see this.
to be more positive about this extended technique stuff, i saw john butcher
solo over in berkeley a couple of weeks ago, and that WAS amazing. and of
course it is unfair to expect everyone to be on that level.
longwindedly,
wy
p.s. whoever found that fantomas "director's cut" cd for $1.99, you got
lucky!! that doesn't come out for several more weeks, and based on the
sample mp3 i heard, it sounds like it will be better than their first one
...
_________________________________________________________________
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 20:44:56 -0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Bill Laswell
>Another Laswell project called Divination sounds like it would be up your
>alley: Distill is a good record.
I'm interested in this: Is it the one where Laswell is just playing in duo
with some Indian dude playing an electric zither? Sound interesting at
least. Is it dubbish?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:10:12 +0200
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Efr=E9n_del_Valle?=" <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
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I see Massacre has put out another album called "Killing Time." =
Are these the only 2 albums or are there more? =20
-Theo
Only these two albums and some songs spread over Frith's discography =
(i.e: "Step across the Border").
BTW, I second that recommendation absolutely!
Efr=E9n del Valle
n.p: Anthony Braxton "Compositions No.10 & No.16(+101)" (It's boring =
me to death so far!!)
=20
=20
=20
=20
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- --- =20
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year!
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<P> I see Massacre has put out another album called =
"Killing=20
Time." Are these the only 2 albums or are there =
more? </P>
<P>-Theo</P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Only these two albums and some =
songs spread=20
over Frith's discography (i.e: "Step across the=20
Border").</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>BTW, I second that recommendation=20
absolutely!</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Efrén del Valle</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>n.p: Anthony =
Braxton=20
"Compositions No.10 & No.16(+101)" (It's boring me to =
death so=20
far!!)</FONT></P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P><BR>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
<B>Do You Yahoo!?</B><BR>Get personalized email addresses from =
Yahoo! Mail -=20
only $35 a year!<BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=3Dtagline">http://personal=
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:22:21 -0400
From: Rich Williams <punkjazz@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
> I must recommend this album to the list... "Funny Valentine"
>by Massacre... Great energetic improvs on each element involved...
>Fred Frith's guitar playing is stunningly amazing, unique, and
>appropriate... Laswell is about as inventive and energetic as I've
>ever heard him play... This is the first album in which I've had
>the opportunity of hearing Chris Hayward play -- he's quite
>productive and he knows when to play and when to relax...He reminds
>me of a cross between Previte and Chris Wood. I can't stop listening
>to this CD! Help!
>
> I see Massacre has put out another album called "Killing
>Time." Are these the only 2 albums or are there more?
>
Short answer; No. Killing Time is from 1981, Frith,Laswell
and original drummer Fred Maher, playing a mix of Fred's tunes, and
improvs. They played a lot of gigs around 80-81. They revived it in
spirit, if not name in 85 as "Two against One" with Anton Fier on
drums, doing a mix of tunes from the first album, and structures that
were originally written for The Golden Palomino's. there are no legit
recordings from this incarnation,AFAIK. The current version of the
band recorded Funny Valentine along side of another album, led by
vocalist Percy Howard, called Meridiem. The earlier incarnations were
a different beast than the current one. Frith's playing at the time
was really out front and quite aggressive, and the rythym section
pounded out some pretty break-neck tempo's. I do like the new album,
but it doesn't have much at all to do with the original band, other
than the name.
BTW, Charles(not Chris) Hayward was the drummer for Quiet Sun
(whose only album was finally reissued on CD last year), as well as
on many of Phil Manzanera's solo projects, before forming This Heat
around 1980.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:39:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <konrad@panix.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, William York wrote:
>
> it is the same kind of impression i often get when seeing a percussionist
> resort to the wet-finger-on-the-tom-tom or to bowing the cymbal -- it often
> seems that these extended or "unusual" techniques are considered ends in
> themselves,
How about Han Bennick's heel on the snare or tossing a slab of wood into
the air? There is something about the gestures that make the performance
a little bit of a spectacle, which i enjoy if it surprises me and i groan
at like a bad pun if i've seen it to many times before.
konrad
PS FWIW, which ain't much, i'm enjoying the new Frith CD, i just can't
give a very good 'review' of it.
^Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:46:47 EDT
From: Dgasque@aol.com
Subject: Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
In a message dated Fri, 6 Jul 2001 5:25:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rich Williams <punkjazz@snet.net> writes:
<< BTW, Charles(not Chris) Hayward was the drummer for Quiet Sun
(whose only album was finally reissued on CD last year), as well as
on many of Phil Manzanera's solo projects, before forming This Heat
around 1980. >>
His post-TH group Camberwell Now is worth searching out too. 3 studio albums with that band, IIRC.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 14:59:58 -0700
From: Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
> How about Han Bennick's heel on the snare or tossing a slab of wood into
> the air? There is something about the gestures that make the performance
> a little bit of a spectacle, which i enjoy if it surprises me and i groan
> at like a bad pun if i've seen it to many times before.
>
>
> konrad
>
I get the impression that some of what Beenik does live is best filed under
"theatrical craftsmanship". It's obviously not about strictly musical
calculation with him.
skip h
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:03:28 -0700
From: "steve spangler" <sspangl@columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Maladoror Reviews
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I noticed everybody talking about this project, and I thought I'd =
mention that mine is in my stack of stuff to sell back at some point. =
So, if anyone wants to buy a copy, just let me know. I also have a copy =
of the "Weird Little Boy" to go back. If anyone is interested in either =
or both of them, contact me at sspangl@columbus.rr.com.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I noticed everybody talking about this =
project, and=20
I thought I'd mention that mine is in my stack of stuff to sell back at =
some=20
point. So, if anyone wants to buy a copy, just let me know. I also have =
a copy=20
of the "Weird Little Boy" to go back. If anyone is interested in either =
or both=20
of them, contact me at <A=20
href=3D"mailto:sspangl@columbus.rr.com">sspangl@columbus.rr.com</A>.</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C10645.F56FF5F0--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:17:26 -0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: free improv (was Chadbourne)
>On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, William York wrote:
> >
> > it is the same kind of impression i often get when seeing a
>percussionist
> > resort to the wet-finger-on-the-tom-tom or to bowing the cymbal -- it
>often
> > seems that these extended or "unusual" techniques are considered ends in
> > themselves,
>
>How about Han Bennick's heel on the snare or tossing a slab of wood into
>the air? There is something about the gestures that make the performance
>a little bit of a spectacle, which i enjoy if it surprises me and i groan
>at like a bad pun if i've seen it to many times before.
The thing about Bennink is that if you don't think his performance is
"funny", you can just close your eyes and just *hear* that he is the best
impro drummer in the world (or buy the records).
Not sure if this is in agreement or not with what William said ;-)
PS: I'm sure the good Doctor Chadbourne would have quite a laugh should he
see the subject line of this discussion!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:21:56 -0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
>I get the impression that some of what Beenik does live is best filed under
>"theatrical craftsmanship". It's obviously not about strictly musical
>calculation with him.
Of course not, but it could be! Listen to some of the live recordings of him
and you will realise that it sounds good (I mean, you might think so, like
me ;-).
My favorite is "Love Henry" by Clusone 3. Of course, it's the "showman" in
him that makes him run around the audience hitting his snare drum, but
goddammit, the moment where he sings the last tone of a song from the other
end of the room is pure brilliance in my opinion.
Actually, he also sits on the floor with only his snare drum, when recording
in studio etc...
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:30:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <konrad@panix.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Skip Heller wrote:
> I get the impression that some of what Beenik does live is best filed under
> "theatrical craftsmanship". It's obviously not about strictly musical
> calculation with him.
True enough. But when i see Frith's syncopated wobblings while he's
playing his guitar (not on his lap) it's not as musical as Bennick's
tossings. And i have to say, from the point of view of interruption,
which IS a compositional technique in both Zorn and ICP, it is very
musical theater.
konrad
^Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:32:19 -0700
From: "s~Z" <KEITHMAR@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
>>>The thing about Bennink is that if you don't think his performance is
"funny", you can just close your eyes and just *hear* that he is the best
improv drummer in the world<<<
Amen to that. When he played here in Ventura I was amazed at how musical he
was.
I expected to get bored listening to this dadadrummer with his bag of tricks
for an hour.
Instead I was mesmerized. We presented Bennink, then a few moths later
Uitti, then a few
months later Butcher. Three improvisers with highly developed voices, each
thrilling in
solo performance. Each incredibly musical, transcending technique at every
turn. Oh,
and to stay on topic, (was Chadbourne) played a couple of nights here as
well. I've
grown to love that voice of his. Both of them.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:34:09 -0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Massacre - Frith, Laswell, Hayward...
>They revived it in
>spirit, if not name in 85 as "Two against One" with Anton Fier on
>drums, doing a mix of tunes from the first album, and structures that
>were originally written for The Golden Palomino's. there are no legit
>recordings from this incarnation,AFAIK.
Frith talked about this on his mailing list some time ago, and it seems
there was quite a bunch of semi-Massacre lineups after the original one
broke up. Lots of different people invovled, including Peter Br÷tzmann and
Ronald Shannon Jackson.
There was a funny story, about one of these versions being booked to play
the Moers Festival sometime in the early 80s. The lineup was Frith, Anton
Fier and Laswell as I recall. Laswell couldn't make it for some reason, but
Fier and Frith had already arrived in Moers. As soon as Fier heard the news
he got on the first plane back to New York. Luckily for Frith (and the Moers
audience) Doctor Umezu was also playing at the festival, and members of that
band immediately filled in for Fier and Laswell even they only had few hours
to rehearse. Must have been an interesting show. (BTW this story was told as
I remember it. There might be some, eh, historical misunderstandings)
>I do like the new album,
>but it doesn't have much at all to do with the original band, other
>than the name.
Well, maybe not. This was discussed by Frith as well.... I think Zorn
sugested calling it a Massacre record and at first Frith didn't like the
idea. Mainly because old Massacre was his project, new Massacre is
collective improvisation. However, at some point in the process, Friht
realised that playing in new Massacre was the closet he had come to the old
Massacre feeling for a long time, so he went with it.
Again, it was something like that I think....
> BTW, Charles(not Chris) Hayward was the drummer for Quiet Sun
>(whose only album was finally reissued on CD last year), as well as
>on many of Phil Manzanera's solo projects, before forming This Heat
>around 1980.
Small correction: I think This Heat was formed in 1976. Their first record
is from 1977. They, of course, were one of the greatest bands of all time.
Hayward has never come close to it again, in my opinion (not to mention the
other members!).... Ah, "The Fall Of Saigon"..... Anybody has any live
recordings of This Heat... Or, perhaps, even videos??
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:38:34 -0000
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: free improv (was Chadbourne)
>True enough. But when i see Frith's syncopated wobblings while he's
>playing his guitar (not on his lap) it's not as musical as Bennick's
>tossings.
"syncopated wobblings"? Could you explain for those of us who aren't native
English speakers? It sound pretty musical to me ;-)
>And i have to say, from the point of view of interruption,
>which IS a compositional technique in both Zorn and ICP, it is very
>musical theater.
Excactly! While Bennink suddenly walking of the stage and into the dressing
room in the middle of playing is a kind of theater, it can create very
interesting musical responses from the other musicians. I think this can be
a very cool way of challenging other improvisors.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #491
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