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2001-06-13
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #466
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Thursday, June 14 2001 Volume 03 : Number 466
In this issue:
-
Euro festivals
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Fwd: Euro festivals
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Re: two british jazz-related questions
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Re: From Zappa to Zorn
New Skopelitis Recording
Re: Euro festivals
Goodbye 20th Century
Igor Wakhevitch
Zorn on Zappa
Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
Re: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
Re: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:12:59 +0300
From: "Vincent Kargatis / Anne Larson" <lartis@ath.forthnet.gr>
Subject: Euro festivals
I'm in Athens Greece. What European music festivals (featuring
list-relevant - in the broad sense - music) should I know about, from the
current date onwards? Links to specific info/schedules would be handy.
thanky.
- --
Vincent Kargatis
NP: Greg Kelley - TRUMPET
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:11:49 -0700
From: William Crump <william@steno.com>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
Some time in the last couple of years, Zorn did a lecture/Q&A if I
recall correctly, and it was reported here on the list that he called
FZ's Uncle Meat the "best album ever." Even taking JZ's penchant for
hyperbole into account, that's pretty fannish. (And hard to argue with,
IMHO.)
William Crump
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:20:20 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <efrendv@yahoo.es>
Subject: Fwd: Euro festivals
>
> What European music festivals
> (featuring
> list-relevant - in the broad sense - music) should I
> know about, from the
> current date onwards? Links to specific
> info/schedules would be handy.
The one I'd like to attend the most is Jazz em Agosto,
in Portugal. I think I can provide a website address
for that. Let me check at home.
Some names of last year's edition (from the top of my
head): Anthony Braxton, Misha Mengelberg, Han Bennink,
Peter Br÷tzmann, Bruno Chevillon, Ellery Eskelin...
and the list went on!
Regards,
EfrΘn
_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger: Comunicaci≤n instantßnea gratis con tu gente -
http://messenger.yahoo.es
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <konrad@panix.com>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, William Crump wrote:
> he called
> FZ's Uncle Meat the "best album ever." Even taking JZ's penchant for
> hyperbole into account, that's pretty fannish. (And hard to argue with,
> IMHO.)
Meaning it was FZ's best album ever? That's _easy_ to argue with, but i
don't know if there'd be a clear winner. Best collage album? Maybe
that'd be easier to defend.
The orchestral pieces that came out of the late Mothers and 200 Motels
period (UMeat was before that), like Pedro's Dowry and Bogus Pomp are a
"movie for your ears" (or "music for your eyes") kind of thing. While not
strictly in Zorn's sense of Musical Optics, i think the whole
program/cartoon/pastiche approach was really FZ's strength carried on with
the sense of the theatrics of performance (some might say hamming it up)
that came through Varese, Stockhausen, Cage, and from his early success
playing the bicycle on the Steve Allen's show.
I realize that Zorn's lineage is more 'downtown' and Zappa's is more
'garage band' but what i like in common is this theater aspect.
konrad
^Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:09:25
From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
For fear of starting another pro- vs. anti-Zappa thread (please don't let it
happen), here are the things I have noticed/read/observed regarding
connections between the two:
- -Zorn has mentioned listening to Zappa when he was growing up in the
sixties, after getting into rock with the Doors, Beatles, but then quicly
geting into "the weird stuff."
- -Zorn mentions Zappa on a positive note in the Spillane liner notes, both
the original and the reissue.
- -Zorn also said something like "he was really special" in the JazzTimes
interview from a year and a half ago, although he also made a point of
saying how the two were different (well, one way that the two were
different), in that Zorn didn't have the motivation or interest to go after
all the political issues as Zappa.
- -someone on the list a while back mentioned seeing Zorn at a
questionnaire-type session in NYC and Zorn said that _Uncle Meat_ was
Zappa's best (the more I listen to it, the more I tend to agree, but that's
another story...)
- -I do think Lumpy Gravy or even Greggary Peccary (which I really don't
enjoy) could be considered precursors to "Spillane" and "Godard" in at least
some small sense, and I think someone else on the list has mentioned this,
even if there are some pretty fundamental differences, too. I need to listen
to it again, but I could have sworn I heard some little sample from
"Greggary Peccary" in "Godard" -- Billy the Mountain laughing, very briefly.
>There was the ancient bad blood between FZ and Lou Reed/VU as well
Not to mention VU/Lou Reed FANS vs. Zappa fans ... but I think this problem
w/ the musicians originally came up in part because they were on the same
record label at the time, and even had the same producer, Tom Wilson.
>Zappa had few good words for anyone alive except Nicholas Slonimsky, so >i
>doubt he said anything interesting about Zorn, if he payed attention >at
>all.
I doubt he was even familiar with Zorn, since he didn't pay much attention
to new music from what I gather. But I do remember reading him (Zappa)
praising Mr. Bungle at some point. (Although, despite the misconception,
there are far fewer connections between Mr. Bungle and Zappa than between
Zappa and Zorn).
Also, Zappa had few good words about many living people in music at all,
unfortunately, whether in rock or classical. BUT, he had a lot of nice
things to say about Pierre Boulez, for one, who is certainly in the "art
world" (as opposed to entertainment).
Being a once-obsessive fan (in various stages of recovery) of Zappa, Zorn,
VU, and Mr. Bungle, I keep track of this stuff, which is why I still
remember specific wordings and such. I have problemes, I know.
WY
P.S. thanks for the Fell/Wilkinson/Hession recommendations.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:24:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <konrad@panix.com>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, William York wrote:
> For fear of starting another pro- vs. anti-Zappa thread (please don't let it
Oh shit: i didn't know that was possible (or historically a pastime) on
this list. I CERTAINLY don't want to enter into that either. What a
waste of electricity!
> Also, Zappa had few good words about many living people in music at all,
> unfortunately, whether in rock or classical. BUT, he had a lot of nice
> things to say about Pierre Boulez, for one, who is certainly in the "art
> world" (as opposed to entertainment).
Although IIRC the liner notes for the half Boulez-conducted album (The
Perfect Stranger) explicitly state that it is NOT "art."
Thanks for your thoughts, Will.
konrad
^Z
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:34:06
From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: two british jazz-related questions
<<of an album that included guest appearances by Steve Beresford and Derek
Bailey. The album is by a (DJ?) Panic_______ (that's a blank to be filled in
by the second part of his name, which I can't remember; Panicmaster,
maybe?). ... does anyone know exactly what
it might be called? >>
>www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/labels/flo/flo013.html
Ah, Panicstepper. Thank you. I looked around more and found the label page,
which in part says this:
"...influenced by such disperate elements as the New York downtown scene
(Zorn, DNAà), Hip Hop, Digital Hardcore, Motown, Parliament/Funkadelic, and
the Japanese Now Wave movement (Boredoms, Melt Banana, Merzbowà)...."
An MP3 is at <http://stage.vitaminic.ie/panic_stepper/> and it doesn't
sound so minblowing, but that could be b/c my computer sound system is so
impossibly screwed up ...
WY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:45:20 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 09:09:08AM -0700, Tom Gatzen wrote:
> It's probably because their last names end with Z that
> they turned out to be great artists. They had more
> time to create while they were waiting to be called on
> in school.
I certainly hope that that is true :-)
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:16:13 EDT
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
In a message dated 6/13/01 2:02:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, konrad@panix.com
writes:
> I realize that Zorn's lineage is more 'downtown' and Zappa's is more
> 'garage band' but what i like in common is this theater aspect.
Don't know to what extent this was a conscious influence, but in this respect
I can hear some Ives behind both of 'em.
David
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:08:46 +0200
From: patRice <iqhouse@yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: From Zappa to Zorn
William York wrote:
>
> Being a once-obsessive fan (in various stages of recovery) of Zappa, Zorn,
> VU, and Mr. Bungle, I keep track of this stuff, which is why I still
> remember specific wordings and such. I have problemes, I know.
>
LOL - don't worry about it, William!
Some people would give a lot to have the same kind of memory as you!!!
;-)
patRice
np: Missing Persons, Rhyme & Reason
(BTW: They are doing a reunion tour with the original line-up of
Bozzio/Bozzio/Cuccurullo/(O'Hearn) this summer! Cuccurullo quit Duran
Duran - who will also do a reunion tour with the complete original
line-up - Rhodes/LeBon/Taylor/Taylor/Taylor)
nr: Haruki Murakami, Sputnik Sweetheart
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:28:54 +0200 (MET DST)
From: stephen.fruitman@idehist.umu.se (Stephen Fruitman)
Subject: New Skopelitis Recording
A new record featuring guitarist Nicky Skopelitis is available on a Greek
label, M Records (website <www.e-music.gr>). It=B4s a trio effort called _Ou=
r
Trip So Far: Thessaloniki, New York, Istanbul_, and also features reed
player Floros Floridis and Okay Temiz on percussion and "electronic
pyramid" (?). A real Levantine mish-mash, very much its own thing - great
sense of fun and inventiveness - maybe a distant cousin to
Hellborg/Buckethead/Shrieve=B4s _Octave of the Holy Innocents_, but with
woodwinds and electricity? Regards, Stephen
Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Ume=E5 University
SE-901 87 Ume=E5 Sweden
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:56:44 +0200
From: Tim Blechmann <TimBlechmann@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: Euro festivals
not very close to greece, but highly interesting is the jazzfestival
saalfelden (www.jazzsaalfelden.at). I haven't seen their actual
program yet, but in the last few years it was great.
PEACE
Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.de
ICQ: 96771783
http://nav.to/timblech
NP: Erik M - Frame
WE - Decentertainment
NR: William S Burroughs - The Western Lands
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:57:17 +0200 (MEST)
From: Emmanouil Papagiannakis <papagian@nat.vu.nl>
Subject: Goodbye 20th Century
3rd and final night of SY in Holland, with a fantastic performance based on
SYR4... If you thought the record was good (or very good as I did), go see
them!!! Amazingly nice performance, totally coherent and inspired. In the city
theater of Amsterdam, a very nice setting, full of people of diverse styles and
ages who seemd to really enjoy the event. Amazing to have this big, old styled
theater filled with SY's massive sound. Nice lighting also.
They played Cage (Six, Four.Six, the latter with help of locals Cor Fuhler
and Ab Baars), K. Boehmer's Echelon, Yoko Ono's scream trilogy, Terney's
"having never written a note for percussion", a piece by George McKane(?)
called "Carpenter piece" which was mainly nailing the keys of a piano,
a C. Wolff a C.Cardew a Higgins and a S.Reich piece. Sadly no pendulum.
Plus a couple of their pieces, incl. a fiery version of "NYC ghosts
and flowers".
A small discussion was organised after the concert with T.Moore, L.Ranaldo,
J. O'Roorke, W. Winant, K. Boehmer about the tour, the music the composers,
etc. Pretty interesting even though a better prepared interviewer would have
made it better.
Highlights from the discussion:
>guy from the public: You live in NYC, where also John Zorn lives. Where you
ever asked to participate in one of his game pieces?
>TM: Well, John is a very nice guy ...(blah blah)... he asked me once to
participate in a game piece but I told him: "John, I dont play games."
At some other point, while discussing reaction from the public to their
20th Century concerts, TM said that often the public just yells old song
titles. And Jim went further saying that they will keep playing this
until the public starts asking them for different pieces of John Cage.
All in all, after 3 nights in a row of SY experience, tonight I will miss them.
Efren; jump fences, crawl under them, dig a tunnel. Just be there!!!
manolis
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:35:16 -0700
From: "Revue des Fossiles" <revuedesfossiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Igor Wakhevitch
Could someone please confirm that Igor Wakhevitch is still alive and well,
and if so what he has been up to since 1979's "Let's Start?"
Thanks in advance -
RdF.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:41:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pierre=20Toussaint?= <pierrecharlestoussaint@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Zorn on Zappa
Hi,
I was writing a paper on Zorn and what I call is
political aesthetic so I read a lot of interviews and
stuff. Anyway, here's all I know of Zorn on Zappa.
From Bill Milkowsi (2000) One future, Two Views.
Conversations with Wynton Marsalis and John Zorn.
Jazztimes (march). p. 28-35, 118-121.
Q: You've traveled a lot with Masada and spread the
word by taking the music to the people, much in the
same way that Frank Zappa spread his own message.
A: Zappa was a very special person. He was very
articulate; he really cared about politics. He had a
lot of things going for him. I can't step in Zappa's
shoes. I'm not politically aware. I don't read
newspapers; I
don't read magazines; I don't watch television. So I
have no idea. Zappa was on top of everything, man. He
was really amazing. I'm not really an articulate,
politically minded, forward thinking person with goals
that wants the world to be this way or that way. I'm
not an interesting interview in that regard. I wish I
was. I wish there was someone who could be there in
Zappa's place. I'm not the guy. For me it's more about
doing
things than babbling about it. (...)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:10:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "M.B." <hirakemike@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
- --- Tosh <tosh@loop.com> wrote:
> For those hard to find books try www.abebooks.com or
> bookfinders.com
>
> Ciao,
>
>
> --
> Tosh Berman
> TamTam Books
> http://www.tamtambooks.com
Thanks for the links, luckily I found a copy under $50
with shipping included. Now if I could only find the
original Joan O'Brien novel "The Day The Clown Cried"
based off the Lewis film.
Does anyone have any book recs within a similar vein
as Hogg or equally disturbing on a multitude of
levels?
Thanks
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:20:29 -0700
From: William Crump <william@steno.com>
Subject: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
"M.B." wrote:
> Does anyone have any book recs within a similar vein
> as Hogg or equally disturbing on a multitude of
> levels?
Delany's "Equinox" (originally published in the late 60s as "Tides of
Lust") is pretty disturbing. It was reissued a few years ago by
RhinocEROS. If you've read Delany's memoir, this is the book he worked
on only while sexually excited, even the parts other than the sex
scenes.
William Crump
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:30:24 -0700
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
> Does anyone have any book recs within a similar vein
> as Hogg or equally disturbing on a multitude of
> levels?
>
> Thanks
>
Boy don't get me started! First of all I think Zorn's current list of his
favorite reads are really good. For instance, I loved the Raymond Roussel
biography. Fascinating wacky (and great writer - of course most everything
by him is out-of-print) personality.
I would also like to recommend someone who is actually very popular but I
feel that she doesn't get the credit she deserves - and that's Patricia
Highsmith. Her work is totally amoral creepiness.
And of course anything by Georges Bataille (Story of the Eye - my personal
favorite of his) and works by Patrick Hamilton. Very disturbing insight
into the British working class during the WW2 years. J.G. Ballard's Crash
is another great.
And if I may give myself and TamTam Books a little plug: Serge Gainsbourg's
Evguenie Sokolov and Boris Vian's I Spit on Your Graves.
- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:11:48 -0400
From: wlt4@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
> Does anyone have any book recs within a similar vein
> as Hogg or equally disturbing on a multitude of
> levels?
Other than the Burroughs, Sade, Celine, Genet, etc lineage? How about:
Iain Banks - The Wasp Factory
Iain Sinclair - Downriver
Rochester - poetry
Denis Johnson - Jesus' Son
David Thomson - Suspects
some people are big on Ian McEwan and Kathy Acker but I've found them to be of little interest
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "M.B." <hirakemike@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
- --0-1804289383-992546545=:12768
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/
- --0-1804289383-992546545=:12768
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Received: from [199.177.59.174] by web13205.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:21:58 PDT
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "M.B." <hirakemike@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: HOGG/ was Delany (no zorn)
To: wlt4@mindspring.com
In-Reply-To: <Springmail.105.992545908.0.64117100@springmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Length: 1021
- --- wlt4@mindspring.com wrote:
> > Does anyone have any book recs within a similar
> vein
> > as Hogg or equally disturbing on a multitude of
> > levels?
>
> Other than the Burroughs, Sade, Celine, Genet, etc
> lineage? How about:
I'm already familiar with those authors, my favorite
out of that list being Celine....
>
> Iain Banks - The Wasp Factory
I actually just finished this book a few months ago.
The brutal scenes of animal cruelty bothered me quite
a bit. The kite scene also left me uneasy.
> Iain Sinclair - Downriver
> Rochester - poetry
> Denis Johnson - Jesus' Son
> David Thomson - Suspects
>
> some people are big on Ian McEwan and Kathy Acker
> but I've found them to be of little interest
>
Not familiar with the above. I tried reading Acker in
HS. Tried a few segments of Blood and Guts in HS here
and there, it just didnt do anything for me..
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more.
http://buzz.yahoo.com/
- --0-1804289383-992546545=:12768--
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #466
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