Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:55:35 EDT
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deconsolidating Queer 2
In a message dated Thu, 17 May 2001 1:17:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, konrad <konrad@panix.com> writes:
> From my vantage it appears these posts are
> actually making Jeton's original point all the
> more, which was that there is hostility towards
> certain kinds of interpretation.
There's hostility towards intellectually vaccuous interpretation that adds nothing to the understanding of art because, as Bill and others have ably pointed out, it simply postulates what it needs to demonstrate, and then deflects challenges by attacking the moral bona fides of the people who bring them rather than by meeting the substance of their arguments. It's by no stretch only folks coming out of gender politics bags who try to run the table in debates this way. Just seems that this is the context this time around. And around. And around.
David
rp: Matthew Shipp String Trio, Expansion Power Release
nr: David Hadju, Positively 4th Street
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:21:06 EDT
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: Playing inside the piano
In a message dated Thu, 17 May 2001 3:33:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Skip Heller <velaires@earthlink.net> writes:
>> My favorite "playing inside the piano" memory
>> is when Count Basie played the strings directly,
>> during his birthday concert @ Filmore <snip>
>> (1967). Keith Jarrett did a long inside the
>> piano solo at the end of Lloyd's set.
>
> There are also examples of this technique in various
> parts of the Beach Boys' PET SOUNDS.
To my knowledge, the first jazzer to do this kind of stuff on record was Roger Kellaway, on the composition "Brats" on his 1965 trio album. Actually, that was a prepared piano; don't know if he went inside it during the performance. Anybody know of earlier significant examples involving jazzers (yes, genre lines would be problematic), live or on record? When did Jarrett start diving in?
In terms of contemporary inside-the-box playing that's cliche-free and totally musical, I award the palm to Sylvie Courvoisier. The things that that woman can do with duct tape...
David
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:25:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: konrad <konrad@panix.com>
Subject: Re: Deconsolidating Queer 2
On Thu, 17 May 2001 DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
> konrad <konrad@panix.com> writes:
>
> > From my vantage it appears these posts are
> > actually making Jeton's original point all the
> > more, which was that there is hostility towards
> > certain kinds of interpretation.
>
> There's hostility towards intellectually vaccuous interpretation that
> adds nothing to the understanding of art because, as Bill and others
> have ably pointed out, it simply postulates what it needs to
> demonstrate, and then deflects challenges by attacking the moral bona
> fides of the people who bring them rather than by meeting the
> substance of their arguments. It's by no stretch only folks coming
> out of gender politics bags who try to run the table in debates this
> way.
I noticed that (his not demonstrating the objectionable interpratation)
too and tried to call him on it. But i still think it's not vacuous
because what seems lost in the shuffle is that homoerotic interpretations
are dismissed with equally vacuous reasoning and even less argument. I
honestly think this case is a tempest in a teacup since nobody's really
offered reasons on either side, but nonetheless he had a point.
And seriously, i read Mingus's novel a long time ago and one of the
impressions i got was that he was a randy sonofabitch, and while i'm not
prepared to stand by it, it wouldn't SURPRISE me if that streak in his
personality surfaced in the solo exchange as suggested.
konrad
^Z
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:29:08 -0700
From: "Reuben Radding" <rrad@drizzle.com>
Subject: RE: Playing inside the piano
Paul Bley, with the Jimmy Giuffre 3, 1961 (LP's "Fusion," "Thesis," and
"Free Fall" are all amazing).
Definitely earlier, than Kellaway. May not be the earliest, though.
RR
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
DvdBelkin@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 4:21 PM
To: velaires@earthlink.net; moudry@uab.edu; zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: Playing inside the piano
To my knowledge, the first jazzer to do this kind of stuff on record was
Roger Kellaway, on the composition "Brats" on his 1965 trio album.
Actually, that was a prepared piano; don't know if he went inside it during
the performance. Anybody know of earlier significant examples involving
jazzers (yes, genre lines would be problematic), live or on record?
- -
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:31:26 EDT
From: RogerHParry@cs.com
Subject: Re: Deconsolidating Queer 2
In a message dated 18/05/01 00:26:17 GMT Daylight Time, konrad@panix.com
writes:
<< Deconsolidating Queer >>
Questioned Gonad Relic
Rog
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:48:20 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: Metamkine (was AMM)
At 03:03 PM 5/17/01 -0700, Scott Handley wrote:
>
>I don't have my copy of WIRE here right now, but is
>anyone familiar with a couple of the artists Keith
>Rowe mentions as being personal favorites working
>today...a guitarist with the last name Battus and a
>group with Jerome Noetinger called
>Metamkine-something-or-other? Rowe seems to have
>superlative praise for Metamkine, but I've had a spot
>of trouble tracing down any domestic distribution,
>discogs, etc.
AFAIK the Cellule D'Intervention Metamkine hasn't released any recordings,
but two of the three members are visual artists. I would guess that
Noetinger's improv recordings might come close, and his release with Lionel
Marchetti and Mathieu Werchowski on Corpus Hermeticum is pretty good.
Metamkine generally is distributed in the US via Anomalous and probably
Forced, so their releases should be available through most of the usual
suspects.
NP. John Cage/Kenneth Patchen -- The City Wears a Slouch Hat
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:20:24 -0500
From: sergio luque <sergioluque@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Deconsolidating Queer 2
RogerHParry@cs.com:
> << Deconsolidating Queer >>
> Questioned Gonad Relic
bravo!
- --
sergio
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:30:17 EDT
From: Orangejazz@aol.com
Subject: Re:semi-classical..
- --part1_67.14384673.2835e339_boundary
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i was just trying to describe the work in some sense. leave it to the zorn
list to take this on a semantic bent! :) I must've recieved three or four
emails in the past day, and I stilldon't feel it's a down right classical
piece, I'm sorry, if i played it for my grandmother, i don't think she'd
consider it classical either! :) by semi- i mean, partially classical. I
don't feel that the works on LMM are entirely classical. they are distinctly
zorn, and as we know pretty well by now, he draws from a number of traditions
and points of personal references. I think that deeming the works on LMM
entirely classical would be detrimental to anyone's perception of them. Maybe
I should just implement Zorn's own reccomendation, and refer to the works as
Avant-Garde?
Also, as to the quality of the work..Amour Fou was particularly touching to
me, and by no means did I mean to imply that that piece in any way subpar. In
fact one of my main qualms with the album is the recording quality on some
of the pieces, sounds strangely tinn-y to me, maybe i'm losing my hearing or
something. I think the main dissapointment for me was "Untitled", partially
because as a big fan of Cornell's work, I had very high expectations, and
partially because I've heard what Zorn is capable of doing with these
instruments. Le Momo, i found to be very exciting, Zorn takes a pretty
interesting direction with the implementation of repeating motifs, thjat
isn't as prevalent in some of his other work. I don't know. I never feel
quite comfortable discussing music. I hate to give it quality rankings and
try to describe, in words, the actual power of it. This album didn't make me
cry out with epiphany like some of Zorn's other works have. If you can say it
did, than more power to you, and I hope someday something will hit me that
hadn't hit me before, (hell, i even mentioned that i've only listened four or
five times so far.) . I was just trying to fulfill a request to dicuss an
album of Zorn's work that I too, kind of hoped for some discussion on.
from,
matt
http://wwww.mp3.com/mattwellins
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>i was just trying to describe the work in some sense. leave it to the zorn
<BR>list to take this on a semantic bent! :) I must've recieved three or four
<BR>emails in the past day, and I stilldon't feel it's a down right classical
<BR>piece, I'm sorry, if i played it for my grandmother, i don't think she'd
<BR>consider it classical either! :) by semi- i mean, partially classical. I
<BR>don't feel that the works on LMM are entirely classical. they are distinctly
<BR>zorn, and as we know pretty well by now, he draws from a number of traditions
<BR>and points of personal references. I think that deeming the works on LMM
<BR>entirely classical would be detrimental to anyone's perception of them. Maybe
<BR>I should just implement Zorn's own reccomendation, and refer to the works as
<BR>Avant-Garde?
<BR>Also, as to the quality of the work..Amour Fou was particularly touching to
<BR>me, and by no means did I mean to imply that that piece in any way subpar. In
<BR>fact one of my main qualms with the album is the recording quality on some
<BR>of the pieces, sounds strangely tinn-y to me, maybe i'm losing my hearing or
<BR>something. I think the main dissapointment for me was "Untitled", partially
<BR>because as a big fan of Cornell's work, I had very high expectations, and
<BR>partially because I've heard what Zorn is capable of doing with these
<BR>instruments. Le Momo, i found to be very exciting, Zorn takes a pretty
<BR>interesting direction with the implementation of repeating motifs, thjat
<BR>isn't as prevalent in some of his other work. I don't know. I never feel
<BR>quite comfortable discussing music. I hate to give it quality rankings and
<BR>try to describe, in words, the actual power of it. This album didn't make me
<BR>cry out with epiphany like some of Zorn's other works have. If you can say it
<BR>did, than more power to you, and I hope someday something will hit me that
<BR>hadn't hit me before, (hell, i even mentioned that i've only listened four or
<BR>five times so far.) . I was just trying to fulfill a request to dicuss an
<BR>album of Zorn's work that I too, kind of hoped for some discussion on.
<BR>
<BR>from,
<BR>matt
<BR>http://wwww.mp3.com/mattwellins</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_67.14384673.2835e339_boundary--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:32:45 EDT
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deconsolidating Queer 2
In a message dated 5/17/01 7:26:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, konrad@panix.com
writes:
> > There's hostility towards intellectually vaccuous interpretation <snip>
> I noticed that (his not demonstrating the objectionable interpratation)
> too and tried to call him on it. But i still think it's not vacuous
> because what seems lost in the shuffle is that homoerotic interpretations
> are dismissed with equally vacuous reasoning and even less argument.
Naw, I don't think so. That's like saying that people who are not persuaded
by the argument that God exists because the Bible that He wrote says so bear
an equal onus to furnish proofs that "He" doesn't. Doesn't work like that.
The burden of argument is not on the skeptic, but on the one who would ask
him to suspend disbelief. Look, suppose I assert, on the authority of my
interpretation of dialectical materialism, that in their famous duet Mingus
and Dolphy were "objectively" channelling Marx's engagement with - and
disengagement from - Lassalle's concept of socialism in "The Critique of the
Gotha Program." And then I start muttering about the "false consciousness"
of those who poo-poo my claim. Do the poo-pooers, the ones who say right off
the bat that they see no more reason for the duet to be about the Gotha
Program than about homoerotic desire or anything else in particular, have the
same obligation to support their stance with evidence that I have when I
claim that it IS about something particular? No, of course not. These two
stances do not, as Bateson would say, belong to the same logical type.
Too. Sleepy. To. Say. More.
David
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:34:22 -0400
From: Peter Gannushkin <shkin@shkin.com>
Subject: Re: E M E R G E N C Y
Hello Jason,
Thursday, May 17, 2001, you wrote to me:
jt> did anyone see emergency at tonic last night?
I did. First set was unexpectedly long with no breaks between
improvisations at all. Music was slightly different comparing with the
concert I saw in Mercury Lounge. There were no slow tunes as well as
no various style imitations. Everything was loud, groovy and kind of
straight forward. It seems to me that the main reason of this was Mr.
Perowsky on drums instead of Wollesen. He definitely has one big
talent - to play VERY loud and keep rhythm almost like a drum machine.
I think he might be good in some dance group, but his only attempt to
play a short solo completely failed. The other three played quite
amazing, besides the fact that Zorn's solos were not as fresh as usual
and seemed very familiar. He was probably thinking about something
else as he didn't even try to coordinate the group. Both Ribot and
Medeski in the same time were great. Sharp and thick sound of Marc's
guitar produced the main attitude to the whole show, while John's B3
added extra spices and fire. Surprisingly Emergency omitted noise,
acoustic and free jazz stuff, concentrating on the purest jam sound
which was the best I ever heard.
- --
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: shkin@shkin.com
URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #433
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