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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 9 2001        Volume 03 : Number 416



In this issue:
-
       Knitting Factory Hollywood
       Re: science, rationality, religion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 13:32:48 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Knitting Factory Hollywood

*******************************************
Knitting Factory Hollywood
7021 Hollywood Blvd
Hollywood, CA 90028
[phone] phone
[phone] fax
http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla
*******************************************

Over the Rhine and around the block
We wanted to make sure to inform you that the April 7th show with Over the Rhine has been moved from the Knitting Factory to the
American Legion Hall at 2035 N. Highland Ave. All tickets for the show will be honored at the AML,  and they will still be available
for purchase though the KFLA box office and there will be no change in the ticket price. Will call tickets already purchased will be
available for pick-up at the American Legion Hall on the night of the show. Doors open at 8pm, Rose Polenzani goes on at 8:30 and
Over the Rhine are on at 9:30.

More Groovy Contest Action
Congratulations to Skip King who won our Radio 4/Poptones contest last week and gets himself a pair of tickets to tomorrow night's
event as well as a super-cool Poptones prize package (I dare you to say that 5 times fast). This week we have a new contest. We've
got two Akiko Yano CDs -- "Twilight" and "Home Girl Journey" -- and a pair of tickets to the show to give away to the person who can
write the best Haiku about Akiko. Our crack team of judges will look them all over and figure out who's mastery at the 5/7/5
stucture is truly worthy of being the winner. The winner can also stick around for the later show with Ken Ishii (as can all other
Akiko Yano ticket holders). Email all your Akiko Haikus to [e-mail].

JUST ADDED

4.12 - Tha 'Liks (9pm), DJ TBA to follow at 10:30 $15
In 1992 Tha Alkaholiks  (now known as Tha 'Liks) became the first group to sign with Loud/RCA. The party anthem "Make Room" came out
in 1993, followed shortly by single "Likwit/Only When I'm Drunk" Tha Liks have a released three albums since their debut in 1993. As
their fan base grew from their live performances and word of mouth, rap purist labeled all three releases top shelf classics.
E-Swift explains, "This album is high energy, 15 tracks of New Orleans Mardi Gras partying on disc. We're looking forwarding to
bringing the party to the stage."

4.28 - Leon Russell $25
The ultimate rock and roll session man, Leon Russell's long and storied career includes collaborations with a virtual who's-who of
music icons spanning from Jerry Lee Lewis to Phil Spector to the Rolling Stones; a similar eclecticism and scope also surfaced in
his solo work, which couched his charmingly gravelly voice in a rustic yet rich swamp-pop fusion of country, blues and gospel.

5.1 - Brett Nelson from Caustic Resin, Autolux, Distortion Felix, Tape $8
"Brett Nelson's blues-flavored licks are dark and heavy, but the sleepy tempos and spacey interludes make these songs more
appropriate for head-tripping than head-banging. Nelson's vocals mix emotional pleas with primal groans, making him sound like a
cross between Perry Farrell and Built To Spill's Doug Martsch." -- CMJ NMR

5.23 - Retsin $10
"By trading in the rattle and hum of Manhattan's mean streets for the bluegrass placidity of its hometown roots in Louisville,
Kentucky, Retsin creates a quiet synthesis of torchy indie folk and No Depression twang." -- Ron Hart, CMJ New Music Report

6.16 - The Blake Babies $14
Juliana Hatfield, John Strohm and Freda Love were inexperienced, intuitively talented teenagers when they first formed the Blake
Babies in 1986. God Bless the Blake Babies-a one-off reunion album that fans can hope will lead to more -recaptures the vibrancy of
the teenage Boston band that set a precedent for complex and catchy alternative pop in the late '80s and early '90s. Ten years
later, the Blake Babies haven't lost their touch.

THIS WEEKEND AT THE KNITTING FACTORY

Friday March 30th -- Main Stage
3.30 - EARLY SHOW - Dan Finnerty and The Dan Band (8pm) SOLD OUT
You know he makes you wanna Shoop. See the return of The Dan Band and get ready to whoop and holler as they rip through a set of
chick songs. Dan Band ticket holders can stay for the late show with Rebirth Brass Band & Jive.

3.30 - LATE SHOW - Rebirth Brass Band (11pm), Jive (10pm) $10
This unique and invigorating music that sounds so spontaneous is the combination of natural born talent, dedication, spirit, and
complete immersion in the New Orleans street tradition.  Their sound and vibe is youthful and fun loving, but musically they are
mature and sophisticated - and totally unmatched by anyone, anywhere.  The Rebirth Brass Band possess an impressive work ethic, an
understanding of themselves, their heritage, and the rare ability to communicate life, love, and peace in a language that is truly
universal.

Friday March 30th -- AlterKnit Lounge
3.30 - David Ornette Cherry with Organic Groove $10
When you bear the name of two jazz legends, you'd better be good if you go into the music business yourself. Luckily, keyboardist
David Ornette Cherry doesn't let his namesakes down.

Saturday March 31st -- Main Stage
3.31 - Poptones presents Radio 4 $10 advance, $12 day of show
The brain child of Creations Records impresario Alan McGee, Radio 4 sets out to break the ruls of every kind of formatted club
around and then toss in some live music for good measure. Featuring a live set from Beachwood Sparks and DJ sets from Alan McGee &
Tim Burgess of The Charlatans UK -- not to mention a bevy of surprise guests and other Poptones DJs. Join us for the L.A. debut of
London's coolest club. Check out the preview pick in today's Calendar Live at
http://www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Music-X!EventDetail-14461,00.html and the Daily News' preview piece at
http://www.dailynews.com/life/articles/0301/30/lif04.asp

Saturday March 31st -- AlterKnit Lounge
3.31 - Carmello Rapazzo $10
AlterKnit favorite Carmello Rapazzo returns to the KFLA.

Sunday April 1st -- Main Stage
4.1 - KLEZMER BRUNCH - Hollywood Klezmers 11am - 3pm $10 for music or food only, $15 for both
Join us for our early morning brunch and music series with a host of great klezmer acts and a delicious brunch buffet.

4.1 - EARLY SHOW - All Stars Of L.A. Performance Art hosted by The Dark Bob $10
Join KCET-TV's "Life & Times" as they tape 6th installment of  the All Stars of L.A. Performance Art series hosted by Los Angeles
performance artist, The Dark Bob. This ongoing series continues to spotlight some of LA's most renowned and influential Performance
Artists - artists whose innovative and ground breaking work helped establish Los Angeles as one of the most dynamic breeding grounds
for this important movement in contemporary art. This week's show features performances by John Fleck, Andy Dick, Keith Antar Mason,
Lida Abdullah and Rochelle Fabb.


4.1 - LATE SHOW - Estradasphere (10pm), Lodusphere (11pm) $7
Like a chance meeting on the dissecting table between Taraf de Haidouks and Meshuggah, Estrasphere belongs in every sane person's
psychic medicine cabinet - the label reads: "Use to ward off the predominantly horrible and nauseating music of your lame era, or
just listen. CAUTION: prepare a coffin because you are going to drop dead."

Sunday April 1st - AlterKnit Lounge
4.1 - The Fold comes to the AlterKnit Lounge with The Ruins (11:15) and Mia Doi Todd (10:15), with Spezza Rotto (9:30), Controlling
Hand (9:15) & Wounded Head (8:30) $10
"Mia Doi Todd's bedroom-folk simplicity magnifies her compositions' sensory complexities. This half-Irish, half-Japanese, L.A.-born
chanteuse writes uneasy, yet playful songs based around her strikingly wan voice. " -- CMJ New Music Report
"Ruins are a Japanese duo on bass and drums who since 1985 have played a pretty unique form of hyper-kinetic rock with schizoid
changes, influenced by weird French progsters Magma -- and themselves influencing stuff like John Zorn's Naked City. A tight,
mind-bogglingly complex compositional style, ... exhausting." -- Aquarious Records

Sunday April 1st -- Bar/Restaurant
4.1 - Charles Schneider Art Opening FREE
The first in a series of art exhibits that will be displayed in the KFLA Bar/Restaurant, all of Charles Schneider's works will be
available for purchase.

THIS WEEK ON THE MAIN STAGE

4.3 - EARLY SHOW - Akiko Yano (7pm) $20
Check out Yahoo's preview piece about Akiko Yano's tour at http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010328/re/japan_yano_dc_1.html
"Akiko Yano is a world class songwriter with a clear, gentle, wide-ranging voice. She is an accomplished, endearing performer who
might be a Japanese Carole King, Joni Mitchell or Meredith Monk." -- Jon Pareles, New York Times
Akiko Yano ticket holders are welcome to stay for the later show with Ken Ishii.

4.3 - LATE SHOW - Ken Ishii (11:30), John Tejada (10:15), Stefan Manceau (9pm) $12
Offering the combined luxury of danceable, sensuous stimuli and evocative, natural calm. Hovering between techno-based avant-garde
textures and subdued sonic bliss, this man was clearly aiming for musical enchantment of a different kind. Ishii defied all
preconceived notions of sound, rhythm and tonality, veering as far away as possible from what is commonly known as popular music.

4.4 - Daisy Rock Girl Guitars presents Girl's Night Out with Wendie Coulter (9:15), Cindy Lee Berryhill (9:30), Merrie Amsterburg
(8:30pm) & Garrison Starr (10:15pm) $8
A monthly new music series presented at The Knitting Factory on the first Wednesday of each month, showcasing local and touring
women artists. All of the women who perform at Girls Night Out will autograph one of
Daisy Rock Girl Guitars' cool new guitars, which will later be auctioned off for charity. Check out http://www.daisyrock.com. Andrea
from Aterciopelados is now a Daisy Rock playin' babe and we hope she plays it when she's here on the 5th.

4.5 - House Of Blues Presents Aterciopelados $22.50, Tickets through HOB only.
"Alternative rock energy fused with Colombian folk music... Aterciopelados have decided to explore other avenues such as R&B, pop,
sampling and programming. The result is an experimental and adult-oriented album. What has not changed is singer/songwriter Andrea
Echevarias' unique and emotional interpretations." -- Ink 19

4.6 - Subculture featuring DJ sets from Nigel Richards (611 Records), Mark Lewis (Mixology Recordings), Bud Brothers (Atmosphere),
Holly Lovecat (RTD/Vinyl Dynasty), Dave Kendall (Limelight, NY) and more.
Helmed by "120 Minutes" creator Dave Kendall, Subculture is both a dance club and a reality television show about the underground
dance scene. This evening marks the inaugural event as well as the taping of the show's pilot episode. The night will also include a
high-tech black-lit fashion show from A Liquid affair by Atousa as well as professional make-up artists offereing complimentary
services in the club.

4.7 - CHANGE OF VENUE - KFLA presents Over the Rhine (9:30), Rose Polenzani (8:30) at the American Legion Hall $12 advance, $14 day
of show ALH is located at 2035 N. Highland.
Over the Rhine have increasingly shown that they can't help but be true to the peculiar voice that propels them, come what may. The
band's albums are deep and wide, playful and serious, sad and joyful--full of tiny experiments, rabbit trails and the wine-dark
sparkle of inspired phrase.
"The standout feature of the music is the compellinf presence of Bergquist. If her life were subject to the cosmic laws of Greek
mythology, a jealous goddess would smite her down with an awful curse to proce that so many gifts bestowed on a mortal cannot go
unpunished. Critics have compared her to Joni Mitchell, Billie Holiday, Sarah McLachlan and Margo Timmins. That seems about right --
keeping in mind that all their talents are combined in one person." -- New York Press

4.8 - Indian Earth Quake Benifit Concert, profits being donated to Red Cross $15 regular admission, $10 with a Cal Arts Student ID.
This is a series of benefit events that will take place on the 8th, 15th and May 6th.
Experimental grooves based deep in funk and world music The Funnies 10-12pm, Alfred Ladzekpo's Story telling and Drumming Ensemble,
traditional African drumming and dance from Ghana spun toghether with short stories. Performed by CalArts African Ensemble 9-10pm,
This Miroslav Tadic and Mark Revelel, a mix of classical guitar and eletronic DJ set up with Jaw Harps, Koni (African Guitar), and
Harmonica 8-9pm.


THIS WEEK IN THE ALTERKNIT LOUNGE

Every Monday - LA LA Mondays
Every Wednesday - Short Attention Span Comedy
Every Thursday - Black Watch String Quartet
Every Saturday - Lesa Carlson Off Blue presented by Green Galactic (*please note* this is not happening this Sat. 3.31)

4.2 - LA LA Mondays with Satelite & special guest Natasha Perez and DJs Chispita, Tianguis, Henrik & Poncharello spinning NORTEC,
World Electronica & Latin Alternative. $7
4.3 - Italian saxophonist Carlo Actis Dato (8:30pm) , Scott Rosenberg/Jessie Gilbert (10pm) $8
Check out the L.A. Weekly's write up at http://www.laweekly.com/picks/scoring.php3
4.4 - Short Attention Span Comedy with Penny Wiggins, Kjell Bjorgen, Tom McCaffrey, Patrick Ney and Steve Ireland. 7:30pm $7
        Bandwagon Presents jazz from Onoffon (9:30) and Tony De Rosario (11pm)FREE
4.5 - Black Watch String Quartet, Jordie $7
4.7 - Lesa Carson's Off Blue 8pm FREE
4.8 - co-lab:ORATION, featuring collaborative arts from poets, musicians, hip hop artists and more intersperesed with open mic
opportunities. $5

COMING SOON
4.10 - 89.9 KCRW Presents The Soft Boys f/ Robyn Hitchcock, Kimberley Rew, Morris Windsor, Matthew Seligman, Young Fresh Fellows $23
ALMOST SOLD OUT!! Don't miss your chance to see this legendary band in its original line-up!!
4.11 - Autumns, Pointy Shoe Factory, Duralux $10
4.12 - Tha 'Liks $15
4.13 - Ship Wrecords presents record release for Eagle Wiskey Biscuit, Canyon, Eagle & V For Vendetta $8
4.14 - House of Blues Presents Jill Sobule $12.50 EARLY SHOW Tickets through HOB only.
         Leo Nocentelli, Slydell $12
4.15 - World Music Fest/Benefit for India Earthquake $15/$10 with Cal Arts ID
4.16 - Shipping News $10 advance, $12 day of show
4.17 - Dave Thomas and Two Pale Boys $15
4.18 - Schoolhouse Rock w/Bob Dorough & special guests $15
4.19 & 20 - Elvin Jones Jazz Machine $30
4.21 & 22 - Chicks On Speed $12
4.24 - Arab Strap $12
4.25 - Musicians Institute presents D-Chromatic, Cain Is Able, Signe & Sonic Pilot $5 advance, $7 day of show
4.26 - Waxwings, Chamber Strings, Fonda, Small Stone $8
4.27 - Kate & Anna McGarrigle, Martha Wainwright $15
4.28 - Leon Russell $25
5.4 - Robin Eubanks and Mental Images 8pm $10 EARLY SHOW
        Wagon Christ (Luke Vibert) 10pm $12 Advance, $15 day of show
5.6 - World Music Fest/Benefit for India Earthquake $15/$10 with Cal Arts ID
5.23 - Retsin $10
6.16 - Blake Babies $ !4










- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:33:17 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion

Sorry, sorry, just replied to Mike before scrolling all the way up my saved
mail list and seeing that this was here.

In a message dated 3/10/01 6:24:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>  >Inasmuch as no one is arguing anywhere for "solving ALL our problems by
>  >technology, " this is a good example of  knocking down a straw man.
>
>  Really?  How so?  Some of the arguments put forward by other list-members
>  suggested that because of numerous technological developments, it was
>  senseless to try and criticize the advances of science.

But I don't think that anyone was saying that science is the answer to every
question.

>
>  > >  Technology
>  > >  is the source of "instrumental reason," where human beings are turned
>  >into
>  > >  things, into numbers, into inconsequential lists of credentials.
>  >
>  >Oh, on the contrary, the idea of humans beings as mere instruments of
>  >teleological purposes far predates the scientific revolution in the West.
>
>  Now why would this be a "contrary?"  I was insisting, in an abbreviated
>  form, that "instrumental" thinking had developed in the twentieth century
>  concurrently (and determinably) with science.  You seem to be operating
>  under the assumption that the development of science marked a cleavage
from
>  religion.  My point (paraphrasing others as well) is that it didn't.

But you wrote "technology is the _source_ of 'instrumental reason'" (e.a.) -
not (as you seem to be saying now), that technology continued or further
developed instrumental reason.  In any case, I kind of see the idea that
individual human beings are valuable in their own right and not as mere
instruments of some greater purpose (king, God) as arising during the
Enlightenment, in defiance of religion.  And the coincidence between that and
the emergence of the scientific method is not, well, a coincidence.

>  >and was the indispensable
>  >ideological and psychological mortor of every crusade, every inquisition,
>  >every mass auto-da-fe conducted for the glory of God...  Read, say, an
>  >account of the sack of Beziers in 1209 (this was the moment during the
>  >Albigensian Crusade when cisterian Monk and papal plenipotentiary Arnold
>  >Amaury declared "Kill them all.  God will know his own.") and then tell me
>  >that the reduction of humans to "inconsequential lists of credentials" is
a
>  >unique feature of godless science.
>
>  This isn't the same thing that I'm talking about.  I'm talking about what
>  might be called the dark underbelly of progress.  It is during those
moments
>
>  of great scientific advance, that a concurrent "instrumentalism" develops.

>  It is sometimes called "bureaucratic rationality."

It sounded before like you were dismissing the whole idea of "progress" -
putting it in quotes.  Talking about its dark underbelly - without the quotes
- - works OK for me.

> I wasn't discussing
>  massive "auto-da-fe's," but if you want to go there, we can discuss the
>  meticulous record keeping during the Holocaust or that by the Khmer Rouge
to
>
>  show a cleavage with earlier mass brutalities on the level of
>  instrumentalism.  And let's not forget that genocide has been largely a
20th
>
>  century problem.

Actually, the record keeping during the Inquisition was mind-bogglingly
thorough.  Don't have time now to give you a sample of the checklists used
during interrogations of the accused, but can provide later if you want.
Trust me, though, in this respect the Nazi's, the Khmer, the KGB, had
_nothin_ on those old friars.

I definitely don't want to get mired in a how-unique-was-the-Holocaust
discussion.  I think it was unprecented and unduplicated (in a way that even
the genocides in Cambodia and in the Soviet Union under Stalin weren't), but
it's precisely for that reason that I would be very careful in terms of how
much of it should be ascribed to general tendencies toward "instrumentalism"
or "bureaocratic rationality."

I also think that if one of the crusades had somehow succeeded in
annihilating 90% of the Jews of Europe (I'm assuming here that the best
success rate was substantially lower), you'd have heard no handringing about
the state of humanity in any quarters of medieval Christiandom.  Score one
for the 20th century on that at least.

>  >The extension of life expectancies by 30 years, the reduction of the
>  >portion
>  >of a typical life consumed by numbing toil by the equivalent of decades,
>  >the
>  >vast majority of human beings on this planet far better fed, better
>  >clothed,
>  >better sheltered, and less diseased than their forebears were a century
>  >ago,
>  >the exposure of heretofore isolated communities to the cultural treasures
>  >and
>  >achievements of  the world - here's more good examples of "the
privileging
>  >of
>  >science over people."  Yes, by all means, put the word "progress" in
>  >quotes;
>  >it's much cleaner than considering the good with the bad.
>
>  Let me see if I have you straight.  If one criticizes the limits of
science
>  and technology, one is therefore criticizing science and wanting to throw
>  scientific progress out the window with all of the bastardizations of
>  science?  This is not what I'm saying at all.  The argument (the prior
straw
>
>  man--turned here into the either-or fallacy) was that because of the
>  advances of science, one should not criticize science per se.  The fact of
>  merely riding an airplane or enjoying a trip to the hospital were
sufficient
>
>  enough to pummel the problem of "scientific rationality."  Obviously, this
>  kind of "reductio-ad-absurdum" does not get anywhere near the problems
>  outlined by the philosophers that no one has yet bothered reading (outside
>  of a few).

OK, we're both against reductio-ad-absurdum arguments.  I didn't hear anyone
saying that science is above any criticism because of the advances it's
produced, but if you thought that was the message, of course you'd want to
take exception to that.  I, on the other hand, thought that I was hearing
science being reduced to instrumental rationality, and I took exception to
that.

And I do think, as I wrote in my reply to Mike, that you're being pretty
fuzzy about what constitutes "scientific progress" and what counts as a
"bastardization of science."

>
>  >One finds blind adherence and devotion among the radical critics of all
>  >things western/capitalist/American too.
>
>  What is your point?  There's certainly less blind adherence there than in
>  "all things western/capitalist/American."  I don't see radical critics,
>  whomever they might be, having much power over there.  Do you?  (Upshot:
>  what is your target here and why?)

Less power?  Sure?  Less blind?  That's another matter.  I've just sat
through too many one-sided polemics where "globalization" is condemned by
people who are absolutely closed to considering how limited and impoverished
their own lives would be in the absence of trade, where "American cultural
imperialism" is condemned by people who embrace as their own the older
American cultural influences already absorbed by their "native" cultures,
where capitalist "growth" is condemned by people who until fifteen years ago
were boasting that socialism provided more of it...  Ah, I could go on and
on.  Forgive me if I've unfairly lumped you're arguments in with this stuff,
but the anti-instrumental-rationality schtick has also been part of the
intellectual armament of the
beat-American-capitalism-with-any-stick-you-can-find crowd.

>  >No, but this kind of reminds me of the yuppies who move out to some
>  >charming
>  >upcountry village or town and immediately start agitating to restrict
>  >_further_ growth so as to preserve "their" community.  Funny how people
>  >tend
>  >to exempt themselves whenever they warn that some development has gone too
>  >far.
>
>  Invidious comparison.  I live in a very humble apartment on a even more
>  humble salary in the far reaches of the globe.  I'd love to live in a less
>  crowded, upcountry village.  Does any of this have anything to do with the
>  farflung problems of the limits of science or technology or "instrumental
>  rationality," etc.?  I think not.

Well, it was an analogy.  I think I explained it in the response to Mike. I'm
jammed into a pretty tight hole myself (as the Rrrrrrster can testify  ;-).

>  ------------
>  Just think of it as "group therapy," s/Z, it's only "group therapy."

OK, but can we go back to talking about our favorite modern improvising
pianists soon?

David

PS.  Just read Mike's response to my repsonse, commenting on that later.


np:  Nothing, which is why I want to get off this soon.





- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #416
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