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2001-02-14
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #286
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 03 : Number 286
In this issue:
-
Game Pieces
Re: patton, etc.
JT Kirk
Re: JT Kirk
Re: Boredoms side projects
Re: patton, etc.(Funkadelic)
Re: JT Kirk
Re: patton, etc.
bay area gigs/stores
HIS
Re: Zappa and Penman: do we need critics (not so OT, i think)
Re: patton, etc.(Funkadelic)
the validity of negative criticism
Re: the validity of negative criticism
Re: the validity of negative criticism
Re: HIS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:50:41 +0100
From: "Friedemann Boltes" <fboltes@01019freenet.de>
Subject: Game Pieces
Hi there !
Is anyone familiar with Zorns Game Pieces ?
I read some interesting things on some Pages but only found vague
descriptions.
How does it work ? And whats the "game" in this pieces ?
The only piece mentioned is "Cobra". Are there different pieces, or is it
only this one ?
All this stuff I found sounds really fascinating... anyone ever tried to
play such a piece ?
Thanks,
Friedemann Boltes
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:46:15 -0500
From: "Richard Allen" <richardfallen@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: patton, etc.
I'd have to add Faith No More's "King for a Day, Fool for a Lifetime" and
about half of their "Album of the Year." I don't own it, but I like what
I've heard off of Maldoror's "She," which is a collaboration between Patton
and Merzbow.
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com>
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Subject: patton, etc.
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:41:54
>Okay kids. Today's assignment:
>I've only heard FNM and a few Bungles. What's the list of essentials for
>someone wanting to buy his son a stack of Pattons? (so he can then >borrow
>them...)
>Thanks for responses,
>RL
My opinions ...
1. Mr. Bungle: Disco Volante - This is my favorite 'rock' album of the 1990s
and one that I played over and over for months after getting over my initial
phase of being just a little repelled by it. Roughly comparable to Naked
City, but with much more of a studio focus. Incredible amount of detail,
excessive organ, heavy death-metal guitars, jazz breakdowns (with Trevor
Dunn playing a lot of double bass and Graham Connah doing piano on a few
tracks).
2. Mr. Bungle: California - more accessible than the above, but not quite as
extraordinary as Disco Volante to me. However it may be a better
introduction if someone is looking for something a liitle more song based.
There is a heavy influence of stuff like Beach Boys, Burt Bacharach, even a
little Tom Jones and Neil Diamond. But my favorites are "Golem II," which
sounds like a cross between Devo and Parliament, and "Ars Moriendi," which
seems pretty obviously inspired by Taraf de Haidouks or some other Romanian
groups, but with the addition of some great dm guitar breakdowns.
3. Faith No More: Angel Dust - i have to admit that I never payed any
atention to this band in high school and by college I wouldn't have deigned
to listen to them as I was in a pretty snobby, experimental music-only sort
of phase. But if you get past the mainstream-ish production, there is some
really unusual and varied stuff here. Nothing as complex or weird as Mr.
Bungle, but, for a well-known band that just sold two-million copies and had
allthose hits (like "Epic"), this is pretty out on a limb. They never really
got much credit for doing this, though, I don't think.
Also, one major thing to point out is that Mr. Bungle is actually very
collaborative -- it is not just Patton's band. On Disco Volante, he only had
a hand in writing three or four songs; Trey Spruance (guitar) and Trevor
Dunn (bass) wrote most of the stuff, and Spruance did the production, which
is amazing. He also produced California, which is even more elaborate.
One other thing, I wouldn't over-emphasize the connection of Patton with all
the new rap-metal bands such as Limp Bizkit. I think that is pretty
insulting (even if FNM's "The Real Thing," etc. did influence this stuff). I
think bands like estradasphere, carnival in coal, and a bunch of the more
'extreme' metal bands who have listened to Bungle/Patton are more worthy
heirs to this 'tradition.'
Anyway... sorry for the length, as well as for annoying anyone who hates
this subject or already knows this stuff.
WY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:45:50 -0800
From: Greg Mills <gregm@tonic360.com>
Subject: JT Kirk
Does anyone have an opinion about the band JT Kirk? I love Roland Kirk, but
Charlie Hunter...I dunno. Live, his various combo have always been lots of
fun, great to dance to, etc. But his studio stuff can get pretty bland.
Does he do justice to the great Kirk?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:58:18 -0800
From: "Daryl Loomis" <DRL@valley-media.com>
Subject: Re: JT Kirk
I don't know how much justice he actually does to Kirk or Monk, but he =
does really well with the James Brown medley's on "If Four was One." The =
arrangements for three guitarists (Hunter, John Schott & Will Bernard) and =
a drummer (Scott Amendola) are well done and I think if you like Charlie =
Hunter's other work, you'd like this (though it doesn't really break any =
new ground).
>>> Greg Mills <gregm@tonic360.com> 02/14 12:45 PM >>>
Does anyone have an opinion about the band JT Kirk? I love Roland Kirk, =
but
Charlie Hunter...I dunno. Live, his various combo have always been lots of
fun, great to dance to, etc. But his studio stuff can get pretty bland.
Does he do justice to the great Kirk?
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:12:04 EST
From: JSub@aol.com
Subject: Re: Boredoms side projects
- --part1_5a.111b10f7.27bc78d4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If you're looking for side projects you can't beat the following site:
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/Boredoms/boreside.htm
it hasn't been updated in a while, but there's enough there ot keep you busy.
My favorites are U.F.O or Die and the hilarious Destroy 2, which is basically
Eye counting off the song and a drum blast or two. Grindcore taken to its
ultimate extreme??
Jeff
- --part1_5a.111b10f7.27bc78d4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>If you're looking for side projects you can't beat the following site:
<BR>
<BR>http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/Boredoms/boreside.htm
<BR>
<BR>it hasn't been updated in a while, but there's enough there ot keep you busy.
<BR>
<BR>My favorites are U.F.O or Die and the hilarious Destroy 2, which is basically
<BR>Eye counting off the song and a drum blast or two. Grindcore taken to its
<BR>ultimate extreme??
<BR>
<BR>Jeff
<BR></FONT></HTML>
- --part1_5a.111b10f7.27bc78d4_boundary--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:13:51 -0500
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: patton, etc.(Funkadelic)
I love Funkadelic. If I had more money and not a lot of other CDs to buy I
would have a lot more Funkadelic albums. I love the instrumental stuff and
the lyrics amuse me to no end. They manage to incorporate a lot of
different styles into the context of funk. For this I like them better than
Parlaiment. The players really know what they are doing and do it well.
The group together has a tightness that makes them all together enjoyable to
listen to.
I haven't listened to Maggot Brain, but reccomend most of the stuff I've
heard (a basic smathering of most of their work)
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:15:56 EST
From: Jeffcalt@aol.com
Subject: Re: JT Kirk
gregm@tonic360.com writes:
> Does anyone have an opinion about the band JT Kirk? I love Roland Kirk, but
> Charlie Hunter...I dunno. Live, his various combo have always been lots of
> fun, great to dance to, etc. But his studio stuff can get pretty bland.
T.J. Kirk (who play the music of *T*helonious Monk, *J*ames Brown, and R.R.
*Kirk*) are cool, but didn't necessarily break any new ground...not
surprising, since it was essentially a covers band. I believe they only put
out 2 albums, the first of which is slightly better.
As for Charlie Hunter, indeed, he's best seen live. I have a number of his
albums--of which Bing, Bing, Bing! is my favorite--but his songwriting has
never been that strong, overall. Funny, I saw him a couple months ago here
in Hollywood and was really shocked at the crowd. First off, the place was
packed (which i'm never used to when seeing a jazz show) and almost everyone
was under 40 (ditto). Namely the crowd was made up of...well, Deadheads
would be the best stereotypical word I can come up with. According to a
friend, Hunter did some "jam band" festivals last year and has since become
popular among that crowd. Looks like Blue Note has hit upon an unlikely
demographic with both MMW and Hunter. Strange too, since I woulda thought
Hunter would be popular with either the alterna-rock crowd (Les Claypool
produced his first album and he covered Nirvana on his second album) or the
hip hop crowd (Hunter has played with Disposable Heroes of Hiphoproisy and
most recently D'Angelo). Regardless, Hunter deserves greater recognition for
his playing. He's truly a wonder to watch live.
jeff caltabiano
n.p. vincent herring: american experience (1990, musicmasters) -w/ dave
douglas
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:42:54 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: patton, etc.
> One other thing, I wouldn't over-emphasize the connection of Patton with
all
> the new rap-metal bands such as Limp Bizkit. I think that is pretty
> insulting (even if FNM's "The Real Thing," etc. did influence this stuff).
I
> think bands like estradasphere, carnival in coal, and a bunch of the more
> 'extreme' metal bands who have listened to Bungle/Patton are more worthy
> heirs to this 'tradition.'
Well I think it would at least be safe to say that without Faith No More,
Limp Bizkit wouldn't exist. The release of Epic would have seen record execs
scurrying around trying to find more "rap/rock" bands, hence Rage Against
The Machine, hence Korn, etc... Sure, now they're looking more for bands
that are like these 2 than FNM, but it all really stems from FNM's number
one hit...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:41:39 -0500
From: "Jim McLoughlin" <jim@webmind.com>
Subject: bay area gigs/stores
Hi
Pardon the off topic post.
I'm in the bay area for a few days and was wondering if anyone could
recomend good gigs the next three nights (Or a good site with this info).
The two I found were Wayne Horvitz at Bruno's (anyone know who's in his
band?) and Philip Greenlief Trio (John Raskin, Georg Cremaschi). I don't
know too much about greenlief, but enjoyed his duo record with Scoot
Amendola. Any other suggestions welcome.
I'm also interested in good record stores - I believe Amoeab is the on to
check out, yes?
Feel free to reply privately, thanks for any help.
Jim McLoughlin
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:45:29 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnick@gis.net>
Subject: HIS
OK, here's a pretty obscure request, I think. A bunch of years ago I
picked up a disc on whim out of a cutout bin that turned out to be the
folk pop trio HIS, led by former Yellow Magic Orchestra member Haruomi
Hosono (I think the English tramslation of the album's title is "People
of Japan", though I'm not positive). Aside from HIS, all of this info
had to be drawn from web searches on the catalogue number, as everything
on the disc is in Japanese. What I'm looking for are English
translations of the titles of the 14 cuts, aside from the first piece,
apparently called "HIS", and the two charming covers of 'Purple Haze'
and '500 Miles'. Anyone??
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:35:59 -0600
From: sergio luque <sergio@tomate.com.mx>
Subject: Re: Zappa and Penman: do we need critics (not so OT, i think)
Steve Spangler en stevespangler@mail.otterweb.alumlink.com escribi=F3:
> Didn't Zappa say something to the effect of: Critics are ignorant to musi=
c,
> and they're writing to an audience that's ignorant about music. I think i=
t's
> in The Real Frank Zappa Book. I seem to remember his rant against critics=
as
> quite funny.
in the chapter "sticks & stones" in _the real frank zappa book_:
"definition of rock journalism: people who can=B9t write, doing interviews
with people who can=B9t think, in order to prepare articles for people who
can=B9t read."=20
and also, just above that quote:
"one becomes a critic when one cannot be an artist, jus as a man becomes a
stool pigeon when he cannot be a soldier"
gustave flaubert (letter to madame louise colet, august 12, 1846)
i would like to copy the last part of _packard goose_ (BTW, thank you
s~Z for making me put _joe's garage_ back on my cd player!):
Joe:
If you're in the audience and like what we do
Well, we want you to know that we like you all too
But as for the sucker who will write the review.
If his mind is prehensile
(His mind is prehensile)
He'll put down his pencil
(He'll put down his pencil)
And have himself a squat
On the Cosmic Utensil
(Cosmic Utensil)
Go give it all you got
On the Cosmic Utensil
(Cosmic Utensil)
Sit 'n spin until you rot
On the Cosmic Utensil
(Cosmic Utensil)
He really needs to squat
On the Cosmic Utensil
(Cosmic Utensil, Cosmic Utensil)
Now that I got that over with
I'll just play my imaginary guitar again
Hey... soundin' pretty good!
Hey... get down, me...
Boy, what an imagination!
Love myself better than I love myself...
I think...
What tone!
Sounds like an Elegant Gypsy!
What is that?
Musk?
It's hip!=20
___________________________________________________________________________=
_
sergio luque sergio@tomate.com.m=
x
theconlonnancarrowwebpages : tomate.com.mx/nancarro=
w
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:16:34 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: patton, etc.(Funkadelic)
>From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
>
>I love Funkadelic.
>
>I haven't listened to Maggot Brain...
Say What??????? Maggot Brain is da bomb! If you love Funkadelic, make it
your next CD purchase...
Peace Out!
NP The eternally yapping neighbour's dog, and as much as it bugs me I can't
figure out how they can put up with it! Seriously folks, this little mutt
barks non-stop for hours...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:22:26 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: the validity of negative criticism
well, I hope I'm not taking this out of context, but Matt said:
<< Essentially, I don't consider negative criticism, in a journalistic form,
of art, to be valid. >>
are you serious? some questions that come to mind are:
how do you choose which records to buy? are the opinions of journalists less
valid than those of people on mailing lists? what makes positive criticism
more valid than negative? is Frank Zappa's entire catalog above criticism?
I didn't have nearly as extreme a swing of opinions about Zappa as Steve and
Penman, but that was largely due to the fact I was never a huge fan in the
first place. I did have close to 40 of the Ryko reissues at one point, but I
had gotten most of them as promos. over the years, I've gradually pruned down
to 10 or 12, and I wouldn't really miss almost any of those.
another question: is it a valid point of discussion that Penman, Steve and
myself all have had fairly similar reactions to Zappa's music as we got
older? why do you feel the need to so vehemently defend the music?
I doubt that Erstwhile would exist, at least not in the current form, if I
hadn't essentially memorized the first edition of the Penguin Guide. and
while the Wire certainly has its faults, blind spots and inane writing, I
consider the entire package essential for anyone deeply interested in the
current state of experimental music. this, of course, doesn't mean blind
acceptance of everything contained within.
it would be nice if there was more worthwhile music criticism in the world,
but it would be similarly nice if there were more worthwhile music in the
world.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:30:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: the validity of negative criticism
- --- JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
> it would be nice if there was more worthwhile music
> criticism in the world,
> but it would be similarly nice if there were more
> worthwhile music in the
> world.
For a number of reasons, good, engagingly critical
music writing is more rare than good music, so when I
find a critic/writer whose voice(s) seem to be
constantly challenging, eloquent, and creative, I'm
just as excited as when I find a great new piece of
music. No critic has ever ruined a piece of music for
me, but I've reconsidered now and then, and Steve's
narrative about his experience with Zappa was great
personal narrative, critical or not; I hope this never
happens with me and, say, Cecil taylor, Evan Parker,
or John Coltrane, or worse, with experimental music as
a whole; the investment's been too great, my heart
couldn't take it.
Speaking of good music in the world, is there more
interesting stuff happening now, at least in terms of
record releases, indepdendent labels, shops for
unusual content, bands, etc, than in recent history?
I didn't get on board until about seven years ago, but
things seem to have improved even since then, though
the Top40 looks bleaker than ever. Is this somehow
millenial?
- ----s
NP: LOWERCASE SOUND comp.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:43:54 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: the validity of negative criticism
In a message dated 2/15/01 12:32:28 AM, thesubtlebody@yahoo.com writes:
<< For a number of reasons, good, engagingly critical
music writing is more rare than good music >>
not really a fair comparison, unless you also speak French, Italian, German,
etc.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:47:49 -0800
From: Tosh <tosh@loop.com>
Subject: Re: HIS
I have this CD! It's great. In the band of course is Hosono, the girl is a
traditional and quite popular Enka singer, and the other guy I believe was
in a Punk band during the 70's. So a very strange weird 'supergroup.' I
maybe able to get the titles into English - but my wife (who is Japanese) is
really busy right now.
Also speaking of Hosono, are there any other recommendations for this
underrated artist?
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #286
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