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Zorn List Digest       Friday, February 9 2001       Volume 03 : Number 273



In this issue:
-
       Re: blessings blowing in from chicago town
       Masada Live in Taipei
       Re: Masada Live in Taipei
       Re: does anybody have ROVA PLAYS LACY?
       Re: blessings blowing in from chicago town
       Re: Masada Live in Taipei
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #265
       zorn-list admin update
       help with Danny Zamir's SATLAH
       Re: now some pearls of wisdom from mr. ian penman (zappa)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:50:28 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: blessings blowing in from chicago town

[e-mail] wrote:

> STARSHIP BEER: NUT MUSIC REISSUE (Unheard Music 220CD)

Oh, my.  It's really happening.

Starship Beer is critic Kevin Whitehead's "legendary" improvising rock band from
the '80s.  He always promised that he'd let me hear this odd LP, and then he moved
away, first to Amsterdam and now Chicago.  Says Whitehead now, "Strange to think
that soon we'll be the talk of college radio.  Very strange."

Also eagerly anticipating the McPhee and, of course, 'Destroy All Nels Cline.'

Very excited... thanks for the news (and the BITCHIN' wheels - you know what I
mean!).

Steve Smith
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:06:50 +0100
From: "piotr kalinski" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada Live in Taipei

Hello,

I'm sorry if this topic has already been duscussed  but I got nowhere else
to go with this one.
Does anybody know why this record found its way to the wide world - I mean
the sound quality is so bad, I'm wondering what was so special about that
particular gig that made Zorn decide to publish it.

Thanks in advance for any info,
Piotr Kalinski


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:13:37 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Live in Taipei

On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:06:50 +0100  "piotr kalinski" wrote:
>
> I'm sorry if this topic has already been duscussed  but I got nowhere else
> to go with this one.
> Does anybody know why this record found its way to the wide world - I mean
> the sound quality is so bad, I'm wondering what was so special about that
> particular gig that made Zorn decide to publish it.

Maybe John thought that Masada was under documented.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:51:32 +0100 (CET)
From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: does anybody have ROVA PLAYS LACY?

>Is there anybody on the list who owns a copy of ROVA PLAYS LACY? I
>would need the track listing of the record and the recording info (date and
>location).

>Thanks,

>Patrice.

Salut Patrice !

Voici la liste :

The Dumps (2'15)
The Throes (4'34)
Sidelines (5'12)
Undone (6'56)
Beeline (10'33)
Moon (9'56)
Snips (3'10)

"Rova Plays Lacy - Favorite street" Recorded on November 15, 16 and 17, 1983
at Barigozzi Studio, Milano (Black Saint Records 0076)

Jacques



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:08:08 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: blessings blowing in from chicago town

[e-mail] writes:
> Also eagerly anticipating the McPhee and, of course, 'Destroy All Nels
Cline.'

Ah, Nels Cline--one of my favorite topics.  I saw Destroy All Nels Cline (a
tongue-in-cheek name, in case you can't tell) in Hollywood this summer.
Cline's "supergroup" was pretty raging and the maestro seemed to really be
into it, despite it being his third set of the night (set 1 was a duo with
Zeena Parkins, set 2 was Scarnella--his duo with Carla Bozulich).  Curious
how this'll sound on album, though, given how dense I remember the music
being and how large the band was (although i don't know how many will
actually show up on the album?).  At the very least, I hope it'll be much
tighter than they were live.

Nels is also on the new Gregg Bendian Interzone album (also on Atavistic), I
presume.  Make sure to check out his new webpage www.nelscline.com, which has
an updated list of gigs and a strange list of his 200 favorite guitarists.

jeff caltabiano
n.p. chicago underground trio: flamethrower (2000, delmark)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:21:43 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada Live in Taipei

> Does anybody know why this record found its way to the wide world - I mean
> the sound quality is so bad, I'm wondering what was so special about that
> particular gig that made Zorn decide to publish it.

I've got to admit, their performance of Midbar (from Masada 4) is pretty
groovy... And I would guess this track isn't played too often.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:31:23 -0000
From: "chris hanley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #265

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:24:37 -0800
From: "Martin Wisckol" <[e-mail]>
Subject: important insight into satchmo

  Gary Giddy: Louis changed jazz because he was the only cat going
Do-da-dep-do-wah-be-be, while everyone else was doing
Do-de-dap-dit-dit-dee.

  Stanley: And that was very profound.

  Marsalis: Like gumbo.

  Stanley: Uh-huh.

  Matt Glaser: I always have this fantasy that when Louis performed in
Belgium, Heisenberg was in the audience and he was blown away and that's
where he got the idea for his Uncertainty Principle.

  Marsalis: Because the Uncertainty Principle, applied to jazz, means you
never know if a cat is going to go Dap-da-de-do-ba-ta-bah or
Dap-da-de-do-bip-de-beep.

  Wynton: Louis was the first one to realize that.

  Stanley: And that can be very profound.

  Stanley: I thought it was a box of chocolates...

  Announcer: The Savoy Ballroom brought people of all races colors and
political persuasions together to get sweaty as Europe moved closer and
closer to the brink of World War II.

  Savoy Dancer: We didn't care what color you were at the Savoy.  We only
  cared if you were wearing deodorant.

  Stanley: Wynton always wears deodorant.

  Glaser: I'll bet Arthur Murray was on the dance floor and he was thinking
about Louis and that's where he got the idea to open a bunch of dance
schools.

  Stanley: And that was very profound.

  Giddy: Let's talk about Louis some more.  We've wasted three minutes of
this 57-part documentary not talking about Louis.

  Wynton: He was an angel, a genius, much better than Cats.

  Stanley: He invented the word "Cats."

  Wynton: He invented swing, he invented jazz, he invented the telephone,
  the automobile and the polio vaccine.

  Stanley: And the internet.

  Wynton: Very profound.

  Announcer: Louis Armstrong turned commercial in the 1930s and didn't  make
any more breakthrough contributions to jazz.  But it's not PC to  point
that
out, so we'll be showing him in every segment of this series to come, even
if he's just doing the same things as the last time you  saw him.

  Glaser: I'll bet Chuck Yeager was in the audience when Louis was hitting
those high Cs at the Earle Theater in Philadelphia, and that's what made
him
decide to break the sound barrier.

  Stanley: And from there go to Pluto.

  Wynton: I'm going to make some gumbo-

  Stanley: BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick=85=85

  Giddy: Do-yap-do-wee-bah-scoot-scoot-dap-dap...That's what all the cats
were saying back then.

  Announcer: In 1964, John Coltrane was at his peak, Eric Doolphy was in
Europe, where he would eventually die, the Modern Jazz Quartet was  making
breakthrough recordings in the field of Third Stream Music, Miles Davis was
breaking new barrier with his second great quintet, and  Charlie Mingus was
extending jazz composition to new levels of  complexity.  But we're going
to
talk about Louis singing "Hello Dolly" instead.

  Stanley: Louis went,
Ba-ba-yaba-do-do-dee-da-bebin-doo-wap-deet-deet-do-da-da.

  Wynton: Sweets went,
Scoop-doop-shalaba-yaba-mokey-hokey-bwap-bwap-tee-tee-dee.

  Giddy: I go, Da-da-shoobie-doobie-det-det-det-bap-bap-baaaaa...

  Announcer: The rest of the history of jazz will be shown in fast forward
and will occupy exactly seven seconds. --There, that was it.  Now here are
some scenes from Ken Burns' next documentary, a 97-part epic about the
Empire State Building, titled "The Empire State Building."  "It is tall and
majestic.  It is America's building.  It is the Empire  State Building.
Dozens of workers gave their lives in the construction of this building."

  Matt Glaser: I'll bet that they were thinking of Louis as they were
falling
to their deaths.  I have this fantasy that his high notes inspired the
immenseness of the Empire State Building.

  Wynton Marsalis: I'll bet most people who'd fall off the Empire State
Building would go "Aaaaaahhhh!"  But these cats went
"Dee-dee-daba-da-da-bop-bop-de-dop-shewap-splat!"

  "That's next time on PBS=85"



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:10:01 -0800 (PST)
From: [e-mail] (m. rizzi)
Subject: zorn-list admin update

Hey Folks,

The zorn-list maintenance has been auto-pilot for
the last two months while I've been travelling
in Germany and the States...Soooo, some of your
miscreant and malformed messages have been languishing
in my bounce folder. After weeding out the 1200
bad email address bounces, I'm going to start
forwarding the messages that have been on hold
because
    * the message has more than 8000 characters, or
    * the message was sent from an account
      not subscribed to the zorn-list, or
    * some random hiccup

ALSO, I've noticed that some folks are posting HTML
messages. This is is A BIG NO-NO. Please only send
plain ASCII text to the zorn-list.

This implies that sending attachments is also verboten.

achtung,
mike rizzi
zorn-list-iron-fist-owner


- --
- ---      [e-mail] <-- NEW ADDRESS, [e-mail] is dead !
- -----
"First of all, he doesn't know much; second of all, he's lazy; and
third, he avoids conflict. Those are all assets." -Ralph Nader on Bush

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:42:25 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: help with Danny Zamir's SATLAH

    Does anybody have a copy of Danny Zamir's SATLAH? I need its detailed
description for the Zorn discography.

    Thanks,

    Patrice.





- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:32:41 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: now some pearls of wisdom from mr. ian penman (zappa)

Sergio:

Your criticisms are well-taken.  But do remember that just as Penman brou=
ght
an anti-Zappa bias to his essay, so too did you bring a pro-Zappa bias.  =
Many
of his opinions were therefore bound to differ with your own - that's the
nature of criticism and of personal aesthetic.  As a fan with over 40 dis=
cs
when I encountered Penman's essay, I, too, would *seem* to have brought s=
uch a
pro-Zappa bias to the article.  So perhaps I should clarify a bit exactly=
 why
the essay meant so much to me at the time, since I did make the essay out=
 to
be some kind of "Saul on the road to Damascus" revelation for me.

I'd already begun to have trouble with Zappa, probably beginning around t=
he
time of 'Joe's Garage, Acts II and III.'  Yet my slavish fan mentality wa=
s
compelling me to buy record after record and record, getting into the ext=
remes
of the 'You Can't Do That..." series, the "Beat the Boots" boxes, and the
note-perfect but lifeless 'Best Band You've Never Heard' releases.  Somet=
hing
wasn't sitting right, but I couldn't tell what.

What Penman's essay inspired in me was the opportunity to say to myself, =
"I
just don't *like* any of this stuff anymore."  Many of his opinions regis=
tered
very close to my own, which I suppose enabled me to see that I wasn't
necessarily missing the point or not "getting" the later records - they j=
ust
weren't very good at all to me, and that was okay.  At which point I simp=
ly
took a good, hard look at not just those later records, but the entire ou=
erve,
and I found that there, too, for me the thrill was gone - it felt like mo=
re of
the same, preserved in formaldehyde from an earlier generation.  So I got=
 rid
of them all.  It was really that simple, but it took reading in a magazin=
e
that *someone else* felt that way about someone I'd always considered an =
icon
beyond reproach in order for me to bolster the courage to call the empero=
r
naked and stop the worshipping.

That was then, and this is now.  These days I have little problem calling
something crap if that's what I think it is.  Even my sacred cows are not
spared entirely - the latest King Crimson studio album, for instance, is
arguably the most insignificant and redundant music ever presented under =
that
name.  (You can see that I'm still trying to equivocate somewhat there...=
)
;-)

Nor does it bother me that many folks who I hold in the very highest rega=
rd,
including those on this list, continue to enjoy Zappa and believe in his
work.  It doesn't change anything at all for me.  You don't have to think=
 I'm
right, but I guarantee I don't think you're wrong.  The point is that it'=
s
okay and healthy to have such differences and to debate them openly on
occasion.  There's always something to be learned, even from an opinion y=
ou
hate.  In your case, this essay clearly reminded you of the reasons you D=
O
like Zappa, and that's valid, too.

Nor does it bother me that acclaimed music ensembles are taking on Zappa'=
s
"serious music."  I've heard it with an educated ear, and I just don't fi=
nd
much there.  But history and performance practice, not critical opinion, =
will
render the ultimate judgement of its worth.

> i honestly think that this article is poorly done, and it seems clear t=
o me
> that mr. penman can't write professionally about zappa. he knows about =
the
> stuff, for sure, but this is one of the most BIASED pieces of jounalism
> that i've ever seen.

But it's not journalism.  It's criticism.  Those are two very different
activities.  Journalism calls for professional detachment - you exercise =
your
own judgement in some ways because it's unavoidable, but you must maintai=
n a
neutrality in your reporting.  Criticism, on the other hand, is criticism.
You are expected to have an opinion; if you don't, you have not done your
job.  And to me, Penman is providing the yin to someone like Ben Watson's
yang.  Watson writes prolifically about Zappa, and his criticism is all v=
ery
positive.  That's fine, and it's even correct - IF you happen to be in
agreement.  Same holds true here.  And The Wire spells it out even before=
 you
start reading, stating in the deck above the headline that Penman is abou=
t to
"take sides."  Watson, among others, would have given them a serious rave.
The Wire knew this going in and chose Penman anyway.  Controversy sells
magazines - they presumably know that much of their target readership is =
in
the pro-Zappa camp.

> mr. penmam: "I cannot see why anyone past the age of 17 would want to
> listen to Frank Zappa again"
>
> me: yes! condemn the whole career and EFFORTS (yes, it was difficult) o=
f a
> musician with one phrase. and if someone don't agree with you it is bec=
ause
> she/he has a teenage mind?, how smart and clear!

You have every right to disagree with Penman's opinion, but he's got ever=
y
right to put it out there, and the responsibility to make his bias clear =
in
doing so.

> mr. penman: "[snip]. Just like Frank did for most of his life. Instead =
of
> having to come out and face the difficult adult world of belief, lust,
> dirt, pain, you can instead strike ironic poses about belief, lust, dir=
t,
> pain; you can string ironic distancing effects like so many fairy light=
s,
> finally, around everything you do. Even unto your own aspirations."
>
> me: yes!, it was the work of satan, the horned one, king crimson. and t=
he
> same can be said of a lot of artist for teenagers like bukowski, cioran=
,
> burroughs. ;-)

I don't follow your rationale or simile here.  Nevertheless, Zappa's cons=
tant
ironic wink - which eventually just became sneering condescension - were =
what
eventually wore me out as well.  And after a while, faced with a barrage =
of
"Bobby Browns" and "Crew Sluts" and "Jewish Princesses" and "Catholic Gir=
ls"
and "Keep It Greasy"s, it stops sounding like porn-as-parody-of-porn, and
starts sounding like plain old grating mysogyny.  Added to that, the targ=
ets
of his ire got cheaper and easier as the years went on and on.  How tough=
 or
insightful is that?

> mr. penmam: "the Berlioz/Var=E8se beat"
>
> me: do you mean 'boulez/var=E8se beat' mr. penman?

You've already given Penman the benefit of the doubt for knowing his subj=
ect,
so I think it's safe to assume that he meant Boulez here.  You can just a=
s
easily blame the editor for not catching it, as well.  Just last month I
refered to a Norwegian group as Finnish, in print.  A good editor makes s=
ure
that brain farts don't turn into factual errors in print.

> mr. penman: "but tell me this: if you were stuck on the proverbial dese=
rt
> island, which disc(s) would you rather have - one solitary song by Bria=
n
> Wilson or the entire Zappa back catalogue?"
>
> me: mmm...    thanks for the question mr. penman, i would rather have t=
he
> entire zappa back catalogue, you know, it has A HUGE LOT of music that =
i
> deeply enjoy, and some jokes that make me laugh every time i hear them.

And, given that choice, I'd take "God Only Knows."  Easy.  I don't think =
for a
minute that Penman's denying that a lot of people enjoy Zappa.  More like=
ly,
Penman is overestimating the regard of the masses for Brian Wilson, based=
 on
his own personal prejudices.  Most self-important rock critics seem to th=
ink
that, too, but it ain't gonna make them *correct,* just opinionated.  And=
 such
critics can of course be among the biggest assholes when it comes to atti=
tude.

> if one were to read the article without knowing zappa's music, one woul=
d
> have never imagined that he has a lot of music that is enjoyed by a lot=
 of
> people, not only the caricature zappaholics that penman portrayed, for =
long
> periods of time: i still love _we are only in it for the money_ , "help=
 i'm
> a rock" and "brown shoes don't make it".

But again, you HAVE to understand that it's an opinion piece and deal wit=
h it
on that level.  Ben Watson would have (and has on numerous occasions) wri=
tten
an article at the other extreme of the spectrum.

I'm clearly more in sympathy with much of the essay than you are, Sergio,=
 so
we can amicably agree to disagree.  But you shouldn't confuse a "smart
critique" -  which, even if it sometimes overreaches and paints Zappa wit=
h too
black and personally pointed a brush, this largely is - with a "favorable=
"
critique.  And when it comes to weighing in with a critical opinion,
especially with a lightning rod like Zappa, well, to quote the man himsel=
f, "I
figure the odds be fifty-fifty..."

Steve Smith
[e-mail]







- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #273
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