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Zorn List Digest      Saturday, November 18 2000      Volume 03 : Number 172



In this issue:
-
       on electroeclecticism
       Re: on electroeclecticism
       RE: on electroeclecticism
       Re: NYEAEC
       Avishai Cohen question
       Re: NYEAEC
       otomo/marclay: what a draag
       Shumacher / Gratkowski
       cartoon s/m
       Re: cartoon s/m
       Re: L.M. Connors/Butters/supersphere.com
       Re: electroaccoustic dressed up as the vanguard
       Re: Shumacher / Gratkowski
       Re: Dunn
       SoundList - Toronto-area experimental music list

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:33:47 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: on electroeclecticism

i maintain:
instruments are tools. 'avant-garde' is a label. it's
people
that either have something to say or don't. what tools they choose is by and
large beside the point. >>

jon rejoined:
isn't that a little overly reductionist? wouldn't even the staunchest fans of
acoustic improv (excluding Ken Waxman) agree that the vocabulary has been
explored far more thoroughly over the last century than has that of
electronics in improv?

i reply:
no, i don't think it's reductionist. certainly technological innovations result
in new styles, sounds and modes and new synergies in creation. my point wasn't
to deny that. but to say that the future of the avant-garde, or any genre, lies
squarely with one type of machinery is overly reductionist, imhfo. the future of
the 'avant-garde', as it has been pinned in this discussion (or as i would
prefer, of continued creative expression) lies in people with innovative and
challenging ideas.

do things sound newer when new technologies are used? sure. are innovative
artists often drawn toward unexplored areas? yuppers again. but none of that
means a harmonica player won't come along tomorrow that won't make you peel off
your skin and scream to allah in pure joy and excitement. i don't know the
players nearly so well as you do, jon. but i'm sure you'd agree that software
and processing speed don't mean much when left in the hands of an uninspired
player. my point was simply that it's the musician, not the medium, that we're
listening to. if that weren't true, then what the hell would be wrong with kenny
g anyway?

kg
np: eugene chadbourne and henry kaiser 'the guitar lesson' - a disc of duets by
two guys who have managed to come up with new and innovative things to do with a
pretty old instrument



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:07:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: on electroeclecticism

Kurt said:

<<my point wasn't to deny that. but to say that the future of the
avant-garde, or any genre, lies squarely with one type of machinery is overly
reductionist, imhfo.>>

fair enough, but electroacoustic improv isn't just pure laptop music, it's
also about synthesizers, turntables, and any or all of the above interacting
with acoustic instruments. Bill's original point was that there's much more
room for innovation in the world of e-a improv, largely because there's so
much unexplored territory. of course I agree that it's the musicians, not the
medium, but that doesn't mean I expect a revolutionary Chicago blues or
Dixieland record to ever come out again.

<<but none of that means a harmonica player won't come along tomorrow that
won't make you peel off your skin and scream to allah in pure joy and
excitement.>>

no, it sure doesn't, but we're talking probabilities here, not absolutes. you
keep scouting the harmonica players for me, and I'll keep you posted on the
world of e-a improv. deal?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:14:40 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: on electroeclecticism




>instruments are tools. 'avant-garde' is a label. it's
>people that either have something to say or don't.

agreed entirely.

however, the vocabulary of electronic music is widely underdefined and
perhaps underappreciated (look at the absolute lack of appreciation amoung
academic classical circles of the tape music phenomenon...)  It has also
been difficult to bridge the gap which Patrice was pointing out (between
music which the people at large can enjoy) with electronic music.  We have
electic guitars...some processed rap...a little techno and house
stuff...personally I think some of these developments are promising in a
certain way.  The fact that Medeski has gathered a crowd while continuing to
push his electronic sounds closer to noise is a step in my book.

i think that Jon is correct to point out that there is a pretty vast area of
artistic possibility in the world of electronic sound and hopfully more
artists will begin considering the ramifications of this area on their own
work, but for me it does still come down to the musician him/her-self.

The existance of this vast area of artistic possibility does not diminish
the capibilities of other musical "tools."

I'm reminded of a schoolmate in high school who refused to wear shoes, read
typed print, or write with anything other than pencil.  He figured feet and
handwriting should be acceptible forms of transportation and communication
respectively.  You all know the story. The bright kid who was eventually
committed to the asylum.

(I also find it a bit funny that the L.M. Connors discussion has been
floating casually along side this massive yacht).

Matt Wirzbicki





- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:34:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: NYEAEC

I always find it interesting that New York Eye and Ear
Control, a film/LP that featured:

Don Cherry (trumpet, cornet); Roswell Rudd (trombone);
John Tchicai (alto saxophone); Albert Ayler (tenor
saxophone); Gary Peacock (bass); Sunny Murray (drums)

is often referred to as an Ayler session. The others
ain't exactly chopped liver. (Something that can not
be created electroacoustically, Jon).

Also we all know that NYEAEC wasn't "the first ESP
jazz release". Ayler's Spiritual Unity was.

Ken Waxman


- --- Steve Smith <[e-mail]> wrote:
> [e-mail] wrote:
: to promote its artists, together with Michael Snow's
> film New York Eye and Ear Control (A Walking Woman
> Work), featuring a soundtrack by Albert Ayler that
> became the first ESP jazz release.



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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:44:40 -0500
From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Avishai Cohen question

Hello All,

  I saw Satlah yesterday at Tonic (it was amazing show, by the way)
  and took flyers of Lemon Juice Quartet there. Satlah and LJQ share
  two members: bass player Shanir Ezra Blumenkranz and drummer Kevin
  Zubek. The other two members of LJQ are guitarist Eyal Maoz and
  trumpeter Avishai Cohen.

  The question: is the well known bass player Avishai Cohen and this
  trumpeter the same person or not? It seems to me that they are two
  different people but with kind of similar biographies.

Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]
URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:03:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: NYEAEC

In a message dated 11/17/00 5:35:35 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< (Something that can not
be created electroacoustically, Jon). >>

don't put words in my mouth, Ken. I never said or implied that there weren't
tons of really innovative acoustic improv records being made 35 years ago.
we're talking about now and in the future. and if you meant that chopped
liver can't be created electroacoustically, that's funny, funny stuff.

just for the record, I haven't had some sort of lifelong bias towards
electronic music, far from it. I'm attracted to music of any kind which I
find exciting and which challenges me. right now, the vast majority of that
happens to be e-a improv, which is why I'm spending my time documenting and
promoting it.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:07:41 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: otomo/marclay: what a draag

In a message dated 11/17/00 5:09:27 PM, you wrote:

<<<Has archivist and
> collector marclay taken up otomo's tendencies to transvestism ?)

... hoppy kamiyama,... is quite fond of doing so, and looks pretty good,
..dressed as a woman and she was, uh, wearing cut up pieces
of stuffed animals all over her.>>

intersting, eh: sampling stuffedanimals.
strange that my first encounter with marclay,
over 20 yrs ago i think, was not via music
 but a feature on marclay's LP-cover collages in a gay porn mag.
the most striking one, i still remember, had a collage of a herbie mann
 flute extended, wearing a red polka dot skirt.
..love to all...
steve koenig     n.p.: charlie kohlhase; dart night

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:34:27 -0500
From: "Jim McLoughlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Shumacher / Gratkowski

Hi

I was looking at upcoming roulette gigs (in NYC), and was wondering if
anyone has opinions/reviews/info on work by Michael Shumacher (who performs
tonight on G3 laptop) and reed player Frank Gratkowski (tomorrow night).
I'll probably see the Kratkowski gig because of the Formaneck/Hemmingway
rhythm section, but any information is appreciated.

Jim McLoughlin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:55:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: cartoon s/m

did this cd get bumped...I thought it should be out by
now???

Tom

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Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:01:53 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: cartoon s/m

On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:55:41 -0800 (PST)  Tom Gatzen wrote:
>
> did this cd get bumped...I thought it should be out by
> now???

According to DMG (mailed today):

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE LAST FOUR RELEASES FROM TZADIK FOR THIS YEAR ARE NOW RESCHEDULED
FOR DECEMBER 5TH , BUT WE MAY GET THEM SOONER!

1.JOHN ZORN-Cartoon/S&M (Tzadik 7330) Outstanding performances of Mr.
Zorn's chamber works performed by the Mondriaan Quartet and the Asko
Ensemble.  The 'light' cd covers his quirky cartoon cut-up
compositions and the 'dark' cd covers his S&M 'Torture Garden'
period.  Both cds conclude with haunting versions of "Kol Nidre" -
perhaps Zorn's most sad and beautiful piece.  Two cd set for $20.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:43:20 -0500
From: "Jesse Kudler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: L.M. Connors/Butters/supersphere.com

> 2. Though this might not be the list to ask, did
> anyone see Signal to Noise, the band with Vandermark,
> Kevin Drumm, and  a guy named STeve Butters (haven't
> heard of him before), when they performed regularly?
> What were the shows like?

Yeah, I'd be interested in this too.  I thought I'd read somewhere that
they'd recorded and that it might get released sometime.  Anyone know?

Butters plays percussion on a frew tracks of Jim O'Rourke's "Eureka."  He's
also playing at Roulette in a few weeks with Eric Mandat and Jim Staley.
More info at http://www.roulette.org/event.12.00.html

Also, speaking of Drumm and Vandermark, I should let people know that
there's some great realvideo of these guys (and many other improvisors) at
www.supersphere.com .  Go to "Clubtronic" and then to the archive and look
around.  There's a duo of Drumm and John Butcher (you have to go to the
NoisePop festival page to find that), Drumm with Axel Dorner (which doesn't
seem to be working for me now), and a really great set of the Ex with
Chicago improvisors including Vandermark, Jeb Bishop, Josh Abrams, Fred
Lonberg-Holm, and Drumm.  The opening set of that clip, with a few Ex
members, Lonberg-Holm, Abrams, and Drumm, is fantastic.  Lonberg-Holm in
particular does some really nice, really intense, cello craziness.

And finally, my Mazzacane-Connors recommendations.  I really like the stuff
with Alan Licht, though I haven't heard the one on New World of Sound (I
think that's the label), which supposedly has huge recording/mastering
problems.  Two Nights is really great; quiet and spacious improv, Licht
mostly plays clean notes around Mazzacane.  Mercury incorporates more of
Licht's "sound"; there's far more feedback and scrape, but it works well
also.  And the aforementioned "Hoffman Estates" features some of my favorite
Chicago improvisors.  Besides Drumm and Chad Taylor, you get Vandermark (I
think that's him doing the cool circular breathing on track 5), Rob Mazurek,
Josh Abrams, Mike Colligan, and more.

For solo Mazzacane, I really like Airs and his first Roadcone record,
Moonyean.  Apologies if that's out of print.  There's a good review of Airs
by Bill Meyer, by the way, at http://www.inkblotmagazine.com/archive.htm ,
under "C" (as opposed to "M").

- -Jesse




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:19:52 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: electroaccoustic dressed up as the vanguard

>From: [e-mail]
>'avant-garde' is a label.

There is the problem in a nutshell, isn't it Kurt.  Once the "avant-garde"
became a "label," it ceased to be "avant-garde."  One has to become
post-Duchampian in order to see this.  Otherwise everything is still
perceived through modernist goggles.

>it's people
>that either have something to say or don't. what tools they choose is by
>and
>large beside the point.

I'm not certain that "tool" is an apt metaphor for musical instruments.  Nor
for that matter "language" for music.  I say I'm uncertain, not that it's
wrong.

When one makes a statement about the concept of the avant-garde being
virtually exhausted, it doesn't mean that genre performers can't be
impressive or our experiences devoid of pleasure.  I write as one who spent
five years playing avant-jazz records on radio.  I cut my teeth on this
stuff.  That's why I talk about my "gods" etc. etc.  My love of this music
will never exhaust itself.  But I live multiple lives in terms of musical,
philosophical, and conceptual affect.  And for me (and I only speak for
myself), after Braxton, Taylor, and Coleman, avant-jazz has exhausted its
recipes.  Everything else is now genre or as you say "label."  Oh and no
doubt these newer artists continue working under labels.  This is my point.


>From: [e-mail]

>That's kind of a broad statement to make, especially in light of how many
>musics develop to the point of fostering an avant-garde.  Have accoustic
>instruments as a sonic family run out of new sounds to make? Is the need
>for
>electronic instruments so crucial to make any new statement?

It is a broad statement for certain.  I'm a theorist, not a practitioner.
Theorists make broad statements.  It's our profession.  I don't think
acoustic instruments have run out of new sounds necessarily.  But I think a
lot of acoustic avant-gardes have now spent their creativity in terms of the
"new."  But don't worry.  I don't feel any remorse about this.  My point is
that "if" there still is an avant-garde in any form left that isn't simply a
reproducing genre or label, it's likely to lie in the general vacinity of
electro-acoustic improv and electronic music more generally.  I could be
wrong though.  Perhaps the avant-garde is exhausted there as well.  My guess
is that it isn't.

>
>Personally, I hold no brief against electronic instruments or the people
>who
>use them (and I think this includes all manner of devices from the Hammond
>B-3 to the turntable and beyond), but to state categorically that one type
>of
>improvising unilaterally holds the key seems a little limiting to me.

I would never state "categorically" for the same reasons as those I
elaborated above.  Once avant-gardes become "categories," they cease to be
as such.

NP:  That Evan Parker disc I mentioned before.

PS:  Nice to see the Zorn list getting a bit feisty again :-)
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:27:30 -0800
From: "Marc Neville" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shumacher / Gratkowski

Gratkowski's home page:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mgratkow.html

You're in for a treat.
Give us a review of the concert if you get a chance.

Marc Neville
Studio City, CA
[e-mail]

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim McLoughlin" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 3:34 PM
Subject: Shumacher / Gratkowski


> Hi
>
> I was looking at upcoming roulette gigs (in NYC), and was wondering if
> anyone has opinions/reviews/info on work by Michael Shumacher (who
performs
> tonight on G3 laptop) and reed player Frank Gratkowski (tomorrow night).
> I'll probably see the Kratkowski gig because of the Formaneck/Hemmingway
> rhythm section, but any information is appreciated.
>
> Jim McLoughlin


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:09:22 CET
From: "Marius Ergo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dunn

>From: "Fag music" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Dunn
>Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 06:52:01 -0800

why is it that people consider Bungle to be kind of a rock band?I suppose
some may think this cause Patton sings on it...anyone?

I think the clue here is that basically, they ARE a rock band, but putting
labels on stuff like bungle is absolutely pointless. The fact is that they
are what they are, and that is some dedicated guys making some of the best
music around. Rock is a dirty word, but not a bad word.
Anyway, Dunn is a great bassist, composer and musician, and has given me
loads of inspiration.

- - Marius
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 10:26:15 -0800 (PST)
From: fred fred <[e-mail]>
Subject: SoundList - Toronto-area experimental music list

JOIN SoundList!

SoundList is an E-mailing list for announcements of
events involving experimental music, free
improvisation, sound art, new concert music,
electroacoustic music, sound poetry or sound sculpture
in or around Toronto, Canada.

Currently there are more than 240 SoundList
subscribers.  Submissions are compiled and posted
weekly, so that the E-mail traffic to subscribers is
low-volume even though the number of announcements is
considerable.  The email addresses of subscribers are
treated as strictly confidential.  SoundList is free.

To subscribe, please visit

http://audiolab.uwaterloo.ca/~soundlst/

Please forward this information to anyone who you
think might be interested.


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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #172
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