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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #156
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, November 7 2000 Volume 03 : Number 156
In this issue:
-
Re: taylor/oxley
Re: Chicago TV Pow show (long, rambling)
Eskelin/Parkins/Black and Hatology
new Penguin Guide crowns
Re: new Penguin Guide crowns
Re: new Penguin Guide crowns
American Bandstand
Re: Eskelin/Parkins/Black and Hatology
Re: Drummers [reprise]
bowie
Re: Drummers [reprise]
Re: Drummers [reprise] - jim black
Fred Frith mailing list
Re: Drummers [reprise] - jim black
RE: jim black's power drumming on recording
tWisT
New Variations ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 15:51:32 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: taylor/oxley
JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
> I saw the first set Thursday. it was one long piece, about 70 minutes. the
> first half hour or so was pure power, loud and fast.
I found myself paying almost total attention to Oxley for this reason. I knew
what Cecil was doing and how he was doing it - there were no real surprises in
this stretch. I'll say that the energy was thrilling, though, lest I run the
risk of seeming blase about a Taylor gig (I hope that never happens).
> the rest of the show was more subdued and textural, and more to my tastes.
And Taylor, admidst the gestures and flourishes that comprise part of every
"piece" he plays nowadays (you know the licks I mean), played bits every now and
then that made me (and the journalist seated next to me) laugh out loud -
pointed and deliberate little stride or ragtimey licks, fleeting but pretty damn
comical in context if you caught 'em. I love it when he surprises me like that.
> and it
> seemed (although this could just be faulty memory) that his kit was decidedly
> larger when he played with Derek Bailey at the Knitting Factory in 1995.
I'd agree with this. The traycard photo of Derek and Tony in the 'Soho Suites'
set dates from '97 and the kit Oxley's playing looks very much like the one from
this run, but I, too, seem to remember the kit in '95 being more of a sprawl.
(But I wouldn't want to meet up with the mad cow from which he nicked that
colossal cowbell.)
> over
> the last 15 minutes, Oxley periodically tried to end the set, but Cecil kept
> on going, which made me laugh out loud a couple of times
I didn't catch this nearly as readily, but I told Jon at the time that this
would have been the opposite of what I noticed at the Taylor and Roach show last
summer, when Cecil kept trying to feed Max conclusions and Max just kept
pounding. But there have been times in the past where I also noted Taylor's
propensity to keep playing past the point of logical conclusion - this just
wasn't one of those times for me - it felt just about right.
Cecil being the "composer" that he is, I've often doubted that any of his
performances ever end by consent... more like when HE says it's over. Derek's
way of dealing with this was part of Derek's cantankerousness and refusal to bow
to the "composer's" will. The one exception to this is the one I noted above
regarding R- sometimes I was surprised that Cecil managed not to just get up and
walk away while Max bashed on. Perhaps a mixture of ego and respect kept him
going gamely onward then. Or maybe I'm just wrong.
> it was
> certainly nice to see Cecil play with a drummer who was his equal, though
Agreed wholeheartedly. This show, along with the recent appearances with Elvin
Jones (yes, really) and a not-so-long-ago quartet gig with Paul Lovens (where
unfortunately the booming acoustics led to Lovens frequently being drowned out
by Taylor), really show Cecil off at his best.
<rant> This show was being professionally recorded. So was the abovementioned
quartet gig with Lovens. So, for that matter, was the incredible evening at the
Cooler a few years ago with his working trio (Duval, Krall) plus Thurston Moore
and Tom Surgal. Who's GOT all these fucking tapes, and why is it taking so long
to get them released? Why does Taylor's recorded output have to remain so far
behind the artist's current activities? </rant>
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:49:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Ethan <eclauset@webslingerZ.com>
Subject: Re: Chicago TV Pow show (long, rambling)
I was one of the catatonic people in attendance - I fell asleep during TV
Pow's set and woke up some for Stilluppsteypa. it was actually pretty
physically cold by the end, as someone had opened a window. there's more
info about the space at <www.deadtech.net>.
ethan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:19:06 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Eskelin/Parkins/Black and Hatology
While we're kind of on the subject... I came across a handful of the trio's
cds on Hat Hut (Hatology). I was tempted to buy them due to the great lineup
but the little I've heard (from the Songlines cd mainly) was not really my
thing (I don't really remember it now, but the impression I have is long,
rambling improv with little emphasis on melody). Anyway, I'm sure at least
one of these discs has something for me, which one or two would people
recommend? (and why?) They had quite a bit of stuff on Hatology actually, so
if there's anything else that anyone could highly recommend, that would be
great also...
Thanks,
Julian.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:48:52 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: new Penguin Guide crowns
well, the new edition of the Penguin Guide is out in England (US edition
coming in March). my copy is still en route from Amazon UK, but in the
meantime, there's a list of the handful of records they deem worthy of
meriting five stars at:
www.crazyjazz.co.uk/Main/penguincrowns.htm
a quick browse through, and I don't think there are many new ones, but a few
I see are:
Arthur Blythe-Lenox Avenue Breakdown
Tony Oxley-The Baptised Traveller
Howard Riley-The Day will Come (anyone heard this and Synopsis? comparisons?)
Horace Tapscott-The Dark Tree, volumes 1 and 2
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:14:39 EST
From: Jeffcalt@aol.com
Subject: Re: new Penguin Guide crowns
JonAbbey2@aol.com writes:
> well, the new edition of the Penguin Guide is out in England (US edition
> coming in March).
given the time lapse, does that mean the U.S. version will be even more
up-to-date? my dog-eared 4th ed. is in rough shape, so i'm looking forward
to the new version. a lot of great albums have been released/reissued since
the 1998 book went to press, so i'm anxious to see the new material.
> there's a list of the handful of records they deem worthy of
> meriting five stars at:
we got into a discussion about this over on the Miles list, so just to
clarify: unless they've changed their ratings system, their scale is up to
four stars. The authors give a crown for albums that "we feel a special
ambition or affection for: a purely personal choice....It is by no means
something of the order of an 'All-Time Top 100,' or whatever..." (4th ed.)
jeff caltabiano
n.p. sam rivers' rivbea all-star orchestra: inspiration (1999)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:25:30 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: new Penguin Guide crowns
In a message dated 11/6/00 11:15:43 PM, Jeffcalt@aol.com writes:
<< given the time lapse, does that mean the U.S. version will be even more
up-to-date? >>
nope, same exact book. if you're especially excited, it's probably worth
ordering from the UK now, it's not too much more expensive, I don't think.
<<we got into a discussion about this over on the Miles list, so just to
clarify: unless they've changed their ratings system, their scale is up to
four stars. The authors give a crown for albums that "we feel a special
ambition or affection for: a purely personal choice....It is by no means
something of the order of an 'All-Time Top 100,' or whatever..." (4th ed.)>>
point taken. as someone said on rec.music.bluenote, "the crowned records are
a combination of the predictable and the arbitrary".
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:13:47 -0800
From: "Toby Dodds" <toby@dodds.org>
Subject: American Bandstand
Here's a little newsflash. Tomorrow/today (Tuesday) Wayne Horvitz &
Zony Mash are playing live on the radio. It's at 2:30 PST on KUOW 94.9
FM in Seattle. They're playing an acoustic set of material from the
release American Bandstand. You can listen in online at
http://www.kuow.org/. Check it out!
:-Toby
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 14:16:28 +0100
From: Pascal Cortes <Pascal.Cortes@dstu.univ-montp2.fr>
Subject: Re: Eskelin/Parkins/Black and Hatology
Julian,
the Songlines CD of the Eskelin/Parkins/Black trio "Jazz Thrash" is in fact
quite different from their HatOlogy releases. The project was new and
apparently the focus was more a work on the band's sounds and textures than
it is now. The thematic material had less importance than in their most
recent releases (that doesn't mean it was weak, listen to 40 West, for
instance), so it's true that the overall record may sound less melodic (but
yet damn good anyway).
If the work on textures and overall sound is still important in the
Hatology releases, the greater role given to the thematic material (with
occasionnal covers) and to the band dynamics (thank Jim Black) add a lot to
the band and finally make these album easier to catch.
So, I think you couldn't go wrong with any of the trio's CDs. My
recommandations would be anyway:
1- Five other pieces (+2). Only covers (Mahavishnu, Tristano, Coltrane,
Haden....)
2- Kulak 29-30. Including a beautiful rendition of Rahasan's "The Inflated
tear"
3- One Great Day
..... 4: Ramifications. Maybe their weakest album. Includes Joe Daley
(tba) and Erik Friedlander (cello)
Regarding the HatOlogy catalogue, it is undoubtfully one of the best labels
for modern/free jazz and impro. I don't know what your musical background
is, nor your musical tastes, but I could hardly live without my copies of
(I only include here recent -available- releases):
- - Joe Maneri (Coming down the mountain; Tenderly)
- - Mat Maneri (So What; Acceptance)
- - Myra Melford/Han Bennink (Eleven Ghosts) -beautiful, and explosive-
- - Guillermo Gregorio (Red Cube(d); Ellipsis) -in the tradition of J. Giuffre-
- - Joe McPhee (As serious as your life)
- - Clusone 3 (Rara Avis) -very accessible-
- - ICP Orchestra (Jubilee Varia)
- - Horace Tapscott (the dark tree)
- - Dave Douglas (constellations)
- - Simon Nabatov (sneak preview)
- - Matthew Shipp (Strata, Gravitational systems, Thesis)
- - and the Eskelin/Parkins/Black trio, of course...
But that's only me...
All the best,
Pascal.
At 12:19 07/11/00 +1100, you wrote:
>While we're kind of on the subject... I came across a handful of the trio's
>cds on Hat Hut (Hatology). I was tempted to buy them due to the great lineup
>but the little I've heard (from the Songlines cd mainly) was not really my
>thing (I don't really remember it now, but the impression I have is long,
>rambling improv with little emphasis on melody). Anyway, I'm sure at least
>one of these discs has something for me, which one or two would people
>recommend? (and why?) They had quite a bit of stuff on Hatology actually, so
>if there's anything else that anyone could highly recommend, that would be
>great also...
>
>Thanks,
>Julian.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 15:45:28 GMT
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Drummers [reprise]
>i found jim black utterly astonishing too. i saw him with dave
>douglas' tiny bell trio here in london last month, and though i've
>seen many great drummers this year for some reason (billy kilson with
I once saw Jim Black play with the Tiny Bells Trio also, and found him good
but not nearly as amazing as many people say he is. It seemed he was holding
back a bit too much for my taste.
Does he play in anything rock or harder? At one part of his solo he played a
short *really* powerfull beat, almost punk. I'd like to hear him do more of
that. Any recommendations?
ARTHUR_G
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:58:22 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: bowie
mpathos implored:
Sure, Bowie can play piano. But he can never play jazz - he has no soul. Not
once in his career has he invested any of HIMSELF in his music. Instead, he
has treated art like a quirky investment where if you corner the right
trends soon enough you reap the disproportionate dividends in money and
fame.
..and then sold stock in himself, easily one-upping robert johnson's legendary
deal-making. in other words, you can take the artist out of the london school of
economics, but you can't take the london school of economics out of the artist.
kg, who can enjoy david bowie by taking it for what it's worth, but who is
currently listening to the far more interesting 'they are we are' by misha
feigin, craig hultgren and ladonna smith.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:05:22 +0100
From: Pascal Cortes <Pascal.Cortes@dstu.univ-montp2.fr>
Subject: Re: Drummers [reprise]
I don't know everything Jim Black did, but he does some (occasional) very
wild stuff on Tim Berne's Bloodcount "Unwound" (the 2nd CD of the 3 CD set
is particularly demonstrative of that, tracks 1 and 3). He's also wilder
with Ellery Eskelin than with Douglas.
Another side of him I recently discovered is his very powerful/rockish
playing on "Sovlanut" by Jamie Saft (Tzadik), but it's much more Drum n'
bass-ish than punk.
I haven't heard Alasnoaxis yet.
My 2 cents.
Pascal.
At 15:45 07/11/00 GMT, Arthur Gadney wrote:
[...]
>I once saw Jim Black play with the Tiny Bells Trio [...]
>Does he play in anything rock or harder? At one part of his solo he played a
>short *really* powerfull beat, almost punk. I'd like to hear him do more of
>that. Any recommendations?
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:31:21 +0000
From: dan hill <dan@state51.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Drummers [reprise] - jim black
>I once saw Jim Black play with the Tiny Bells Trio also, and found
>him good but not nearly as amazing as many people say he is. It
>seemed he was holding back a bit too much for my taste.
>
>Does he play in anything rock or harder? At one part of his solo he
>played a short *really* powerfull beat, almost punk. I'd like to
>hear him do more of that. Any recommendations?
i don't know of any other releases with him playing in this vein,
although i would add that when i saw him with tiny bell trio, in no
way did he hold back. he was fairly full-on for the whole gig,
sprawling all over his kit like a drunk baby, picking stuff up and
throwing them around , holding rattles, shakers, and bells in his
teeth whilst playing with (almost) all other appendages ... there was
some incredibly fierce near-jungle funk patterns at one point (a very
electric miles moment in general, actually) which were jaw-dropping
... he didn't hold back much as far as i'm concerned ...
but, upon hearing the latest tiny bell trio album, i have to say it
didn't capture the intensity of the live performance (not unusual i
know) ...
btw, peter marsh has written an excellent review of jim black's
latest for winter and winter, if you're interested in further opinion
(and soundclips):
http://motion.state51.co.uk/reviews/727.html
cheers,
dan.
- --
- ---+ dan hill [state51]
---+ new reviews on motion [7.11.2000]:
< john cage | cornelius cardew | merzbow | lewis taylor | albert
ayler | jim black | david bowie | nobody | keith tippett | susumu
yokota | cristian vogel >
http://motion.state51.co.uk/ +---
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:38:39 GMT
From: "Arthur Gadney" <a_gadney@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fred Frith mailing list
Are any of you people alo on the Fred Frith mailing list? It seems totally
dead! I can't post or do anything. Anybody know what's up?
ARTHUR_G
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:06:52 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: Drummers [reprise] - jim black
>>>jaw-dropping ... he didn't hold back much as far as i'm concerned ...<<<
And his sense of timing....his ability to turn on a dime.....his eyeball to
eyeball intuitively passionate interplay with Eskelin and Parkins.....his
humor......dynamic range......the most enjoyable ensemble drumming I've
heard since seeing Baron with Frisell's quartet many years ago......
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 13:39:55 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) " <M_WIRZBICKI@ColoradoCollege.edu>
Subject: RE: jim black's power drumming on recording
>Does he play in anything rock or harder? At one part of his solo he
>played a short *really* powerfull beat, almost punk. I'd like to
>hear him do more of that. Any recommendations?
I'm not sure quite why but Ned Rothenberg's Double band CD comes to mind...i
can't remember the label. It seems to me that the very first track on that
album is pretty gritty but I haven't heard it in years. (billy martin is
the other drummer).
Personally i think his drumming is pretty hard at many points in tim Berne's
screwgun Bloodcount material (www.screwgunrecords.com I think). The
"unwound" set especially -- FWIW "loose ends" is one of my favorite of the
harder tracks on this set exemplifying this type of stuff.
If anyone has any other recommendations of gritty/noisy/jazz influenced
stuff with a definite rock tinge I'd be curious to hear what they are. (kind
of like a wine description isn't it)
there's a pretty raunchy guitar solo (by Fennesz i think) on the first
Orchester 33 1/3 disc which I would also perhaps consider similar.... the
track has a really prominant break beat and quite an attitude.
Matt Wirzbicki
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 21:55:16 +0100
From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" <Rob@llaert.NU>
Subject: tWisT
Since we're talking 'bout Jim Black. I really like Carlos Bica's "Twist"
with Jim Black and Frank M÷bus on guitar. Carlos plays double bass (what's
the difference between contrabass/double bass/upright bass?). Anyone else
got this one? I think it's hard to find in the US?
Greetings,
Rob@llaert.NU ______________ www.rob.allaert.com
"The goal is to bring the same intensity to listening as the performer to
playing."
np: carlos bica & azul: twist
ne: milk chocolate digestives
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:01:36 +0100
From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" <Rob@llaert.NU>
Subject: New Variations ?
Zorn-agains,
Uri Caine's Goldberg Variations, ok, Bach's compositions. Are all the songs
based on Bach? Even the one called "Vivaldi" and "Nobody knows the trouble
I've seen"? I'm confused. Help me out ;)
Greetings,
Rob@llaert.NU ________________ www.rob.allaert.com
"The goal is to bring the same intensity to listening as the performer to
playing."
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #156
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