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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, October 17 2000       Volume 03 : Number 116



In this issue:
-
       Re: Style?(was Masada)
       crump's contributions
       Xu Feng (was Re: Most important Zorn contribution?)
       Re: 1 masada is enough
       Re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?
       Jon Rose, Ladonna Smith & others Boston Oct.22
       Re: Jon Rose, Ladonna Smith & others Boston Oct.22
       Re: crump's contributions
       Prelapse Tonight!
       duchamp
       Sly
       2 tickets for music of Masada
       Re: Do others have difficulty explaining to people what they like about all the Avant stuff?
       greg kelley's TRUMPET (review)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:26:45 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Style?(was Masada)

In a message dated 10/15/00 7:49:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< What's the difference?  Is Robert Johnson just playing the blues?  Is A
Love
 Supreme or Kind of Blue just modal jazz?  Is Bach just writing fugues?  Are
 Zorn's "cut and paste" compositions just Stalling rip-offs?  There's so much
 "music" out there that transcends a the "style" which it encompasses.  And
 within each style isn't there unlimited possibilities.  Is rock music Zappa,
 Hanson, or Peter Gabriel?  We can be extremely nit picky and label every bit
 of every album or except it for what it is...music...unless you feel "World
 Music" is a viable genre. >>

I'm actually a little unclear on what you're asking here.  Your last sentence
seems to think that I want style to have a name; this is most definitely not
what I meant.  I know that there's plenty of music that transcends the style
it encompasses; I just emphatically feel that Masada does not fit that
description.  There are unlimited possibilities everywhere in music, I agree,
but it's the inability of some music to escape its stylistic chains that
makes it difficult for me to accept it as pure music, as opposed to jazz,
classical or whatever style one would use to describe it.

Style is purely an after the fact construct used to discuss music.  Its when
we as musicians or listeners start doing it backwards, letting the style
dictate the music, that we're missing what I feel to be the 'point.'  This is
the danger I feel SOME of Zorn's projects fall into sometimes; they kind of
glaze over styles in a superficial manner.  Moreover, a huge percentage of
jazz players seem to come up learning jazz and playing it as a style as
opposed to learning and playing it as if it was music.  They're too firmly
entrenched in the stylistic 'conventions,' which is really an after the fact
surface level description of what comprises the music they think they're
studying.  This is true for styles or genres across the board, not just jazz.
 This is not to say that there aren't people in 'jazz' that are free of this
way of thinking, or that its not possible; its just that I don't think that
there are that many, and that those who DECIDE they're 'jazz' or
'alternative' or whatever are not usually making what I consider to be
interesting music.  'Avant garde' has begun falling into this trap as well,
especially in the past 5 or 6 years.  It admittedly allows for a wider range
of expressive options, though.

Additionally, as listeners, having a stylistic view of music ultimately
limits what music  can and will do for us.

- -matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:31:06 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: crump's contributions

crump gave:

> The Big Gundown (original release).

the nod for one of jz's best works. which makes me wonder... why the original,
wc?

kg
np: christian kiefer - welcome to hard times



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:38:50 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Xu Feng (was Re: Most important Zorn contribution?)

jason tors wrote:

> I have been listening to xu feng non-stop since I got it last week. I
> think this album finally captures what his game pieces are all about,
> and it is heavy.

I've only had a chance to listen to a bit of this but will give my "so
far" second recommendation to its strength.  Hadn't noticed the sub-rosa
"rules," thanks for the tip.

Liner notes by Zorn offer an interesting distinction between
"amateur/outlaw" performances and composer-led "authorized versions."
Somewhat monomaniacal, but illuminating given the regional Cobra-related
problems that have been discussed here before.

Also exciting - and not really discussed here before to my knowledge - is
that the release of 'Xu Feng' is subtitled 'John Zorn's Game Pieces,
Volume 1,' implying a series of some/all of the missing pieces.  There's a
comprehensive list of 27 such pieces in the liners, some of the earliest
of which were of course included in the 'Parachute Years' box set.  The
release marks the inauguration of a sub-series within the Tzadik Archival
Series, titled Olympiad.  How appropo...

If I were to try to give voice to "Zorn's most important contribution"
(like that's possible), it's his refusal to distinguish between high art
and popular art in the cration of his personal aesthetic - i.e., that
there's no implicit difference between Kagel, Carl Stalling, John Barry,
Ornette Coleman and Napalm Death.  He's hardly alone in this, but it's a
cornerstone of his work, and puts him squarely in the American maverick
tradition alongside Ives and Partch.

And 'The Big Gundown' was a landmark record in my own personal
development, for damn sure.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - John Hollenbeck, "The Drum Major Instinct," 'No Images' (CD-R; CRI
release Feb. 2001)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:45:41 +0100
From: Nils Jacobson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: 1 masada is enough

skip heller ([e-mail]) wrote:

> Someone once suggested that there are two kinds of approaches to art: One is
> to constantly reinvent context, the other to find a groove and work it like a
> coalmine.  I don't think one is better than the other.  I think also,
> especially in Zorn's case, the challenge of keeping a regular band fresh and
> grooving is challenge enough.

the operative concept here, to take what you said a little further, comes
from post-structuralism and intertextuality.  every musical idea has a
precedent, whether direct or indirect; every 'new' idea in art is a
synthesis of that which came before.  there are giants in music who
manage to perform the most awesome syntheses, and there are wannabes
who are eagerly trotting in yesterday's well-worn path.  the difference
is of course subjective but at least in a critical sense it can be
evaluated.

i was re-reading a daniel carter interview i did last year, and daniel
had it pretty well figured out.  to speak of musical 'heroes' (as he
was reluctant to do) is to ignore all the little guys who made their
work possible.  comparing zorn to ornette or miles or cecil is only
relevant on the idea level; their output differs so dramatically and
the social context in which they developed their music obviously
quite distinct.  collaborators obviously made a huge difference as
well.  (think of ornette without don cherry or charlie haden; those
early records just wouldn't be the same.)

in terms of synthesis, imho, zorn ranks up there among the 'greats'
of 1990s music.  but then you have to consider where he would be
without the bill frisells and the joey barons and the rest of his
crew.  give him credit for getting great bands together, but give
*them* credit for playing masterfully.

n

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:27:10 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?

On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:45:05PM +0200, Ari wrote:
> As far as I know:
>
> 1) because the members had almost no more time left for other projects;
> 2) they didn't like the audience asking them to play the NC-"hits" again and
> again...
>
> So a possible question could be: why is Masada still going on? (Not that I
> don't like it, but...). I think we discussed that on the list a few months
> ago.

Which leads me to wonder: does Masada have any "hits" or at least
favorite tunes common across their listeners? You'd think that any band
with 10 studio albums and a handful of live ones would have put out a
compilation album by now. (Though actually a greatest hits album from
Zorn himself would probably explode from trying to stuff too many
disparate things on it at once.)
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:35:36 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Jon Rose, Ladonna Smith & others Boston Oct.22

Hey Zorn listers,

Several people have emailed me about a post to the zorn list a few weeks ago
(forwarded to you by Steve Koenig apparently) about this show I'm putting on
for Jon Rose, LaDonna Smith, Harald Kimmig/Carl Hubsch duo and Saturnalia
String Quartet, so I thought it might make sese to repost this.  Seems like
there's been some talk about Rose lately and his killer Strung Fest at Tonic,
but I'm surprised there hasn't been more banter about LaDonna.

LaDonna Smith came up in Birmingham, AL along with alto saxophonist Wally
Shoup and guitarist Davey Williams (Curlew, etc), who she has maintained an
improvising duo with for over 20 years.  (They are also co-editors of The
Improvisor magazine).  Both Davey and LaDonna have done a fair amount of work
with Zorn, Chadbourne and others associated with the "Downtown Scene" over
the years, but are not as well documented as many.  At any rate, LaDonna has
a COMPLETELY unique, wild and unrestrained approach to violin/viola and voice
and is a consumate improvisor. She runs a monthly improv series in
Birmingham, but rarely leaves Alabama for U.S. tour stops (concentrating
mostly on foreign tours), so I'm really psyched that she's gonna make the
trip to Boston.

Also, the german team of Kimmig and Hubsch are noteworthy for their unique
blend of violin and tuba (!) as well as their fine work with Cecil Taylor,
Peter Kowald, Lester Bowie and many others. And Saturnalia has collaborated
with Daniel Carter, Peter Kowald, Elliott Sharp, Roger Miller, and many
others.

Here's the latest low-down on the throw down (below).  Hope folks can join us!
Jonathan LaMaster


Sublingual Records and Sedimental Present:
The First Annual Boston International String Improvisors Festival
7pm to 10pm, Sun. Oct. 22 @ First Parish of Cambrisdge (Unitarian),
3 Church St (corner of Mass. Ave), Harvard Square, Cambridge, MA.
$10, ALL AGES welcome, Advance Tickets NOW AVAILABLE at
Twisted Village Records in Harvard Square, Cambridge. [phone]
[e-mail], www.sublingual.com, 781-388-9855

FEATURING:
7pm: Saturnalia String Quartet (from Boston, violin, cello & 2 basses)
7:45pm: Jon Rose
8:30pm: Harald Kimmig/Carl Ludwig Hⁿbsch (violin/tuba duo from Germany)
8:45pm: LaDonna Smith
9:30pm: impromptu collaborations

Saturnalia String Trio/Quartet:
http://www.sublingual.com

Jon Rose:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/jrviolin/index.html

LaDonna Smith
http://www.the-improvisor.com/transmuseq/ladonna/

Harald Kimmig (violin) & Carl Ludwig Hⁿbsch (tuba)
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-huebsccah

RADIO PREVIEWS OF STRING FEST
(Listen to these for Ticket Giveaways!)

Tuesday 10/17/00 from 10pm -1am, Continuous Drift" NCP II
WZBC - 90.3 fm
streaming audio at www.wzbc.org

Thursday 10/19/00  at 11am
WHRB - 95.3 fm

Sunday 10/22/00 - 9am to 11am - Hush that Fuss
WZBC - 90.3 fm
streaming audio at www.wzbc.org

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:07:41 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jon Rose, Ladonna Smith & others Boston Oct.22

On Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:35:36PM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

> LaDonna Smith came up in Birmingham, AL along with alto saxophonist Wally
> Shoup and guitarist Davey Williams (Curlew, etc), who she has maintained an
> improvising duo with for over 20 years.  (They are also co-editors of The
> Improvisor magazine).  Both Davey and LaDonna have done a fair amount of work
> with Zorn, Chadbourne and others associated with the "Downtown Scene" over
> the years, but are not as well documented as many.  At any rate, LaDonna has
> a COMPLETELY unique, wild and unrestrained approach to violin/viola and voice
> and is a consumate improvisor. She runs a monthly improv series in
> Birmingham, but rarely leaves Alabama for U.S. tour stops (concentrating
> mostly on foreign tours), so I'm really psyched that she's gonna make the
> trip to Boston.

I'll also add that jamming with LaDonna at last year's Deep Listening
retreat (as well as other stuff there) completely spun my ears around as
to the possibilities of vocal improvisation. She's a definite force of
nature, and not to be missed.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:13:05 -0700
From: William Crump <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: crump's contributions

[e-mail] wrote:

> crump gave:
>
> > The Big Gundown (original release).
>
> the nod for one of jz's best works. which makes me wonder... why the original,
> wc?
>

By golly, Kurt, I'm pleased you noticed, and glad you asked.  I just think the
original Gundown was very close to a perfect work as it was, and while none of
the extra tracks on the 15th anniversary reissue are less than wonderful, they
just seem to dilute the incredible impact of those original ten tracks. I
wouldn't have minded at all if the new tracks had gone onto Filmworks 9 or some
other catchall release. Plus I have a bone to pick with the ghastly booklet
/package layout/design in the reissue. If only Ikue Mori had done it, I'm sure I
would have liked it better. The original Gundown was no beauty in the design
department, either, but...

Anyway, that's why.

William Crump


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:45:15 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Prelapse Tonight!

Fellow New Yorkers, don't forget Prelapse plays tonight at Don Hill's!!  You
MUST see them live!

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:31 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: duchamp

In a message dated 10/16/00 2:09:59 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp >>

Joe's Duchamp quote reminded me of one of the most interesting things that
Keith Rowe told me this weekend. he said that for a long time, the world of
jazz/improv has been divided into pre-Coltrane and post-Coltrane. but with
this recent wave of improvisers who come from disparate backgrounds and
cultures, many from outside of jazz, he feels that the important dividing
line has now become 1917, pre and post Duchamp. just thought I'd pass that
on...

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:22:24 +0100
From: Philip Clarkson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sly

> also a rumor went around ages ago that columbia, when it first
> put out sly on CD, did a mistake and put out alternate takes
> which was quickly withdrawn.... any confirmations or info?

The rumours are true - well they are over here in the UK. The CD version of
"Fresh" available here is completely different to the US version -the UK
edition seems to be demos or out-takes - the sound is pretty muddy, the
tempos are different, horn parts are omitted or extra ones added. It's
fascinating listening, and still a fantastic album. The UK version is still
easily available - I read in "Mojo" magazine a while ago that it would be
replaved by the official version eventually - maybe when Sly's
back-catalogue is remastered they will combine the two...?

Phil Clarkson
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:56:07 -0400
From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: 2 tickets for music of Masada

Hello All,

  I have two tickets for music of Masada concert today in Merkin Hall
  at 8 pm.

  I know that it is late, but if anybody wants them by chance I can
  give them. I'm not going to go there but I'm close to it.

  If you are interested write me back ASAP or call me at 212 666 9062.

Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]
URL: http://www.downtownmusic.net/



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:07:32 -0400
From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Do others have difficulty explaining to people what they like about all the Avant stuff?

I've found a some what successful introduction to Avant music for my
friends.  I take into account the musical tastes of the person first.  I
then choose a CD that has related genres.  My friends who enjoy jazz, Masada
or Sex Mob.  My rock friends, Naked City.  If I had a friend who liked
classical, Masada Chamber.  Electronic or Movie Music, Big Gundown.  With
the Naked City introduction, I let a couple tracks with Eye slip.  I keep
pushing the envelope until they have reached a certain comfort level with
the music.  I then present "weirder" albums.  There are albums that I
wouldn't share, though.  Notably: Patton's solo work, Elegy, Classic Guide
to Strategy.  I've enjoyed a certain amount of success.

I hooked my friend who had a wide background of musical tastes, she loves
swing, Morphine, Radio Head, Classical, but not "jazz".  I introduced her to
Zorn after she studied Morricone in a film class unit.  I then gave her some
Naked City to listen to, surprisingly she loved Eye.  She loved Masada right
off the bat, too.  Now I just keep throwing things at her and she loves it.
Her favorite is the Big Gundown.

Another way that I found is give people CDs as gifts.

Zach

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:18:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: greg kelley's TRUMPET (review)

Greg Kelley - TRUMPET  (Meniscus, 2000)
[Kelley, unaccompanied trumpet]

I'd like to belated second or third the praise of this
remarkable disc.  I can only add a few descriptive
details and a personal impression.  The album is just
over 40 minutes, twelve tracks ranging from seventen
second to ten minutes, most untitled.  The recording
is extremely close-miked and dry, which perhaps serves
to draw our attention to the sound-material "itself",
not to "replicate" an "actual" venue or space, but to
perhaps focus as closely as possible on the recording
as a "pure" document.  So I then infer that there are
no electronics used, aside from the careful attentions
of the microphone(s).  (Liners would have helped, but
there are none, save a note or two on the fact that
the recordings were made about four months ago.)  Now,
all this process talk might be artificial, except for
the sheer disturbing _abundance_ of sounds that the
man squeezes out of the horn.  The album title almost
seems like irony.  The opening track is a blistering
metal-onmetal stifled screaming, with fascinating tiny
variations in timbre.  Other tracks feature an
approach that almost seems like Joe McPhee textural
puckered hiss on pocket trumpet.  That's an
instrumental comparison for the sake of reference,
though: such a comparison doesn't hold up too well
when you _hear_ the incredible variety of puckers,
hisses, slap-tongues and multiple-tongueings,
vocalizations (I think), mute-play, preparations
(???), and wildly bent notes.  There are glitch-fast
jump cuts and disruptive percussive gestures, the
occasional sound of metal scraping metal, "empty"
valve-click runs, and all manner of embouchural
contortion.  Finally, though the most exciting and
relevant thing is that the end result is far more than
a catalog of extended techniques.  The use of space
and dynamic drama makes for a wildly discontinuous,
profoundly thoughtful, but really visceral listening
experience.  I found myself moved emotionally by the
music.  Invigorating and challenging, but well worth
the trip.  Thanks to those of you who mentioned this
album.

- -----s, enthusiast

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #116
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