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Zorn List Digest         Tuesday, June 6 2000         Volume 02 : Number 958



In this issue:
-
       Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
       Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation)
       Re: artists and self-estimation
       Re: Ostertag & Say No More / Verbatim
       Re: Odp: artists and self-estimation
       Naked City question...
       Re[2]: Bach/Caine
       Re: Naked City question...
       RE: artists and self-estimation
       sonic boom/june discs
       Re: sonic boom/june discs
       Re: Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware, etc.
       Re: Naked City question...
       Re: sonic boom/june discs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:36:24 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: notation (was artists and self-estimation)

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 01:20:04PM -0600, Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S)  wrote:

> >Is  LMC the initials for Loren Mazzacane Conners in your question above?
>
> yes...sorry for the confusion.  I've seen it abriviated a bit on the list.

FWIW, I tend to rean LMC as meaning the London Musicians Collective,
unless context suggests otherwise.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:37:40 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: notation (was artists and self-estimation)

Mathhew Wierzbicki wrote:
> Yes, but a transcription of the "counterpoint" between the principal
flutes
> in a Gagaku orchestra would be pretty messy.  Gagaku is traditional court
> music of Japan and the flutes often play similar versions of the same
melody
> but the intervals are often unrecognizable to a western ear.  Here again
our
> transcriptions in western notation are inadiquate to fully represent the
> music.

Well, i think that this talk about complicated music complicates the issue.
Just notate a BBKing solo and give it to a guitarist to play. You'll see the
limitations of notation.

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:57:32 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: artists and self-estimation

On Tue, 06 Jun 2000 04:42:18 GMT  "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> <This raises the question of who is more qualified to judge music: a
> mediocre artist or an educated listener (educated in the sense of having
> done his homework)? >
>
> No one is qualified to judge music.  No one could possibly do enough
> homework.

Wow! What a strong statement. Even the post-modern critic? Even with
the help of deconstruction? That's really disappointing. For a few
minutes, you almost convinced me.

> <If every artist was of the stature of Picasso or Cage>
>
> This is it in a nutshell.  A hierarchy of evaluation.  What if we are
> surprised to find out that one common DJ in our time has as subtle a
> knowledge about music as Mr. Cage?  Would this be blasphemous?

Sorry, I did not know that stating that some artists are more important
than others was taboo. I guess, thinking that way is being elitist,
right? I mentioned Picasso and Cage simply as archetypes of over-
achievers, artists who really changed the way we perceive creation.
I almost naively thought that nobody would question that choice...

Since you are bothered by that, you would have to listen to everything
to be able to make a judgement. Since you can't, I understand now why
your are saying: "No one is qualified to judge music". Based on your
assumption, it is in fact practically impossible.

But for people who don't buy your assumption, they can limit themselves
to a more manageable number of artists (those that they consider as
worth their time) and make some judgements (with the risk of being
wrong, it goes without saying).

What's wrong with making a judgement? The risk of being wrong? Not
for you, I guess, since "No one is qualified to judge music", hence
judgement is beyond the limit of our poor human logic capability (to
decide if something is right/wrong, good/bad, etc). Of course, all
this is based on your premiss ("No one is qualified to judge music"),
which, sorry to tell you, I don't buy at all.

> <Like everybody here, I have read a pile of crap written by alleged
> specialists à.At least critic is totally harmless (not like political
> theories...). >
>
> Political theories donÆt kill people; people kill people, which they do
> anyway, without theories most of the time.  As far as the timelessness of
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You should tell that to people from Cambodia.

> aesthetic attitudes and the harmlessness of critics, Hans Haacke had a
> different take, when he juxtaposed ExxonÆs support for  the symphony next to
> the effects of their investment in S. Africa during apartheid.

Wow! What a shrewd finding! The conspiracy theory is always more appealing.
The likely reason (a big company sprinkling money here and there for tax
purposes) looks boring in comparison (and not worth writing a paper).

> <Seriously, has anybody been able to get anything out of the new
> philosophical babbling (except getting a diploma, and impress those who like
> to be impressed)? I mean, how many fashionable theories will it take to get
> it right? Are we getting closer from the ultimate truth with any of these
> new theories? Or are we just turning in round and wasting our time?>
>
> Are we still believing in "ultimate truth" and "getting it right,"  Patrice?

After the successes of structuralism, Marxist, and post-modern theories (I am
sure that I am forgetting a couple), I won't surprise you by saying that I
gave up that lofty objective.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:01:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ostertag & Say No More / Verbatim

Just so everyone knows what the say no more project is, here's a
description of the creative process the ensemble uses, taken from
ostertag's web site: http://www.detritus.net/ostertag/

Ostertag began Say No More by sending the three instrumentalists,
separately, into studios with no instructions other than to record
improvisations. Using a computer, Ostertag then took these tapes and
reconstructed them into a "band" that played works he composed from
fragments of the improvisations. The remarkable recording that resulted is
possibly the first recording ever released by a band that had never played
a note together. Originally released on the RecRec label, it is now
available only through this web site.
Ostertag then returned this recording, along with a score, to the
musicians. In effect they were challenged to re-learn their own playing,
but as heard through the prism of Ostertag's work. When the musicians
gathered to rehearse, the ensemble began to develop a life of its own
through the direct interaction of with the musicians struggling to perform
the computer-derived material.
In October 1993, Say No More made a live recording at ORF-Vienna which was
released as the band's second cd, Say No More in Person. It features the
same compositions that Ostertag developed on the computer, performed in
their transformed, concert rendition.
Next, Ostertag put the live recording back into the computer, exploded it
once again into little bits, and assembled a new composition, Verbatim,
released in 1997. The group premiered the live version of Verbatim at the
Taktlos Festival in Switzerland, 1996.

- ---end snippit from website.  since then, the group recorded and released
the 4th cd, a live version of the music appearing on Verbatim.  There
was/is some talk of a box set of all 4 cds, but i don't know what's up
with that...

cheers,
whit


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:07:24 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: artists and self-estimation

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:14:38 +0200  "Marcin Gokieli" wrote:
>
> BTW could you tell something on the Boulez's writings? I love his works
> (both as conductor and composer) and would be interesterd in what he writes.
> I do not hesitate to call Adorno's stuff bullshit - i cannot stop to think
> that the guy is crying THE WORLD DOES NOT LOOK LIKE HE WOULD LIKE IT TO
> LOOK, and being highly educated he writes books whose depth does not go far
> beyond an essay in a sunday newspaper, but are much lore lenghty and
> peretencious. 'Philosophy of the new music' is a horrible work. In judging
> Stravinsky, he does notr give any argument, nor even a sincere opinion why
> he finds that music such a horrible thing. Who is this guy to judge 'Rite of
> spring' or 'L'histoire du soldat'? His work looks so poor compared with
> Stravinsky's masterpieces...

If I remember well, Adorno's main "argument" to demolish Stravinsky is that
the composer is bourgeois (would have been fun to check who was paying Adorno's
bills...). Starting with this rock solid "axiom", and going backward (you
fix the target first), he is able to make his point. Is that what we can call
intellectual integrity?

And Adorno is usually the pie in the face that you get when you dare to
doubt about the relevance of these music critic theorists...

Fortunately, more people remember Stravinsky than Adorno.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:24:54 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Naked City question...

I might be being foolish here, but why are many of the tracks from
Torture Garden on Grand Guignol too?
This is some what annoying, considering the high price of Naked City records.
The songs are enjoyable in any case though.

What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
enjoyed
both of the tracks that they composed.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out.

ben

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:40:12 -0400
From: Peter Gannushkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re[2]: Bach/Caine

Hello XRedbirdxx,

Tuesday, June 06, 2000, you wrote to me:

Xac> I had heard that the Bach project was to feature a classical
Xac> choir of singers. Was this not the case at those shows?

There was no any choir at this show.

- --
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:41:59 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City question...

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:24:54 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I might be being foolish here, but why are many of the tracks from
> Torture Garden on Grand Guignol too?
> This is some what annoying, considering the high price of Naked City records.
> The songs are enjoyable in any case though.
>
> What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Zillions of records with Debussy's music. One of my favorite is Boulez
conducting:

    Prelude a l'Apres-midi d'un Faune
    La Mer
    Jeux

(I can check the exact ref. I you want)

"Jeux" is maybe one of the most underated pieces of this century. This
is the summum of Debussy's sophistication. Since it does not make as
much noise as Stravinsky's "Rite" :-), people thought it was less revolu-
tionary. That may be true but "Jeux" is as good as "The Rite" to
represent modernity in the early 20th century.

After that? Get "Iberia", "Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien", "Nocturnes".
And this short list does not cover his wonderful piano pieces (his
"Children's corner" is so pretty).

If you dig opera (some people don't), you will have to try his haunting
"Peleas and Melisande".

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:02:57 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: artists and self-estimation

Patrice L. Roussel wrote

> If I remember well, Adorno's main "argument" to demolish Stravinsky is
that
> the composer is bourgeois (would have been fun to check who was paying
Adorno's
> bills...). Starting with this rock solid "axiom", and going backward (you
> fix the target first), he is able to make his point. Is that what we can
call
> intellectual integrity?

He has, if i remember correctly, more rock solid axioms to fight with... He
says that IS's music is schizophrenic, that it embodies (that's almost a
quote, although i can't find the book now) - 'the oppression of the people
by the owners'. That it is badly written, simplistic, and noisy.
It's worth mentioning that Schoenberg (the positive hero of the story) did
not like the thing at all.
I do think that it is very strange that serious people can find that stuff
interesting. Hypocrysie, i believe.

> And Adorno is usually the pie in the face that you get when you dare to
> doubt about the relevance of these music critic theorists...

What a horrible pie in the face! Lets not talk about this @&&*!%^ anymore...
BTW, what would such a guy say about Torture Garden or Locus Solus (BTW I
wonder whther he read the Patrice's uncle ;-)  book.)

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:33:46 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: sonic boom/june discs

despite horrific probs wit me server, i'll offer up an article on, like, sound.
email me and i'll try to send you the full text.

LONDON (AP) - For the first time, sound artists have reached center stage in
London.
Works by 26 artists are humming, clicking, whirring, whistling and banging away
in the Hayward Gallery's "Sonic Boom: The Art of Sound," providing an
alternative to art lovers used to looking at drawings, paintings and sculpture.
One exhibit consists of 51 record players stacked on scaffolding from floor to
ceiling and another is a "Quiet Club."
There are dark rooms, flashing lights, sensors in floors to trigger noise as
people pass by, and even bird calls from the Brazilian rain forest to listen to
through headphones while standing outside looking across the river Thames toward
Big Ben.
"Sonic Boom" features artists from 10 countries and four continents, and was put
together by David Toop, a British musician, writer and sound curator...


also, here's wha's expectd in june, reaped from the a.p. newswire:

By Jonathan Takiff
Knight Ridder Newspapers
JUNE 6
"Nativity in Black 2" (Divine) features a rash of heavy metal currents paying
tribute to Black Sabbath. Among 'em - Pantera, Medadeth, System of a Down,
Monster Magnet and Godsmack. FYI - Sabbath's Ozzy Osbourne is proprietor of
Divine Recordings, and makes an appearance (with Primus) on the track "NIB."
Chick Corea is represented with "Standards" and "Originals" (Concord), two live
solo albums from his recent tour. The former covers tunes by Monk, Porter, Kern
and Powell, the second revisits his "Spain" and "Brasilia."
Guitarist Charlie Hunter returns with a self-named set on Blue Note. Rosemary
Clooney and John Pizzarelli collaborate on "Brazil" (Concord).
James Carter delivers two sets - "Layin' in the Cut" and "Chasin' the Gypsy"
(both Atlantic).
John and Alice's second son, Ravi Coltrane, scores "From the Round Box" (RCA),
mixing originals with idiosyncratic takes on tunes by Wayne Shorter, Thelonious
Monk and Ornette Coleman.
Steve Earle digs those "Transcendental Blues" (E-Squared/Artemis) and even
dabbles in Irish music with the aid of accordion player Sharron Shannon.
JUNE 20
The late Doug Sahm is celebrated with a full-blown country album "The Return of
Wayne Douglas" (Tornado), polished posthumously by Bill Kirchen and Doug's old
saddle pal, Augie Meyers.
Long-lost RCA/Bluebird recordings by Bill and Charlie Monroe surface on "What
Would You Give in Exchange for Your Soul?"
The late, great mambo king Tito Puente lives on to "Party With Puente"
(Concord).
Martial Solal and Johnny Griffin take it "In and Out" (Dreyfus). Carla Bley and
Steve Swallow ask "Are We There Yet?" while Swallow hosts his own date, "Always
Pack Your Uniform on Top" (both ECM).

np: Scott Miller/Joe Fonda - Bottoms Out



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:17:33 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: sonic boom/june discs

In a message dated 00-06-06 18:33:59 EDT, [e-mail] writes:
>Long-lost RCA/Bluebird recordings by Bill and Charlie Monroe surface on "What
>Would You Give in Exchange for Your Soul?"

Unfortunately, the Knight-Ridder round-up article Kurt clipped and posted
fails to mention that this disc is on Rounder (they make it sound like it is
RCA), and is the first of 4 volumes that will encompass, for the first time
in the US, a comprehensive reissue of all 60 sides the Monroe Brothers made
together in the 1930s, and extremely significant body of pre-bluegrass Monroe
work.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 22:51:17 -0400
From: Matthew Wosnitzer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Max Roach & Cecil Taylor/Baron & Ron Carter/David S. Ware, etc.

The Max Roach Cecil Taylor combo was simply amazing.  They played for over
one hour in the beautiful outdoor atmosphere at Columbia University and they
basically took turns soloing.  They played with many different tempos but
overall they just kept going when you though they might stop.  After their
playing was over, each sat to play his own solo one last time.  Baron and
Carter were also great.  Joey Baron opened by playing with his hands and
then the two broke out into a faster pace and went for about 45 minutes.
Carter had some typical awesome solos and Baron played some of his typical
solos and was excellent as well.  He played as a backdrop for Carter and
also took over at times himself.  Overall, it was an excellent concert.
Later, Matt



on 6/6/00 1:14 AM, [e-mail] at [e-mail] wrote:

> Anyone have any comments about the duo performances from Taylor & Roach or
> Baron & Carter (I'm especially interested in hearing how this one went!).  I
> was really bummed out that I had to miss this, so please fill me in on the
> details.  Thanks!
>
> -Evan
>
> -
>

- ----------------------------------------------
Matthew Wosnitzer
6177 Lerner Hall
New York, NY 10027-8363

212.853.5745
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:11:53 -0400
From: "Dann-Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City question...

> What is a good place to start with either Ives or Debussy?  I thoroughly
> enjoyed
> both of the tracks that they composed.
> Thanks to anyone who can help me out.


For Ives, i highly recommend his Fourth Symphony, Orchestral Set #'s 1 & 2,
and his 'Holidays' Symphony.

- -------
Dann-Brown

np: Pavement - "Cut Your Hair" CROOKED RAIN
- -------



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 07:25:59 +0200
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: sonic boom/june discs

> LONDON (AP) - For the first time, sound artists have reached center stage
in
> London.
> Works by 26 artists are humming, clicking, whirring, whistling and banging
away
> in the Hayward Gallery's "Sonic Boom: The Art of Sound," providing an
> alternative to art lovers used to looking at drawings, paintings and
sculpture.
> One exhibit consists of 51 record players stacked on scaffolding from
floor to
> ceiling and another is a "Quiet Club."
> There are dark rooms, flashing lights, sensors in floors to trigger noise
as
> people pass by, and even bird calls from the Brazilian rain forest to
listen to
> through headphones while standing outside looking across the river Thames
toward
> Big Ben.
> "Sonic Boom" features artists from 10 countries and four continents, and
was put
> together by David Toop, a British musician, writer and sound curator...
i've visited the exhibition. it sounds more exciting in paper. The brazilian
forest thing is very neat, best pieces are by Max Eastley as usual. Eno's
quiet club is... quiet.



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #958
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