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Zorn List Digest         Sunday, May 14 2000         Volume 02 : Number 936



In this issue:
-
       Odp: that's not music!
       Re: vision fest question (fwd)
       John Butcher
       Re: John Butcher
       Re: John Butcher
       Re: Names
       RE: that's not music!
       Uri Caine
       Re: that's not music!
       RE: Uri Caine
       one more legal issue...
       Odp: that's not music!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:21:06 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: that's not music!

> prerequisites are necessary.  I agree with what Jon said -- unless you are
> the musician you can never really appreciate the music as it "should" be
> appreciated.
Why do you think the performer himself has a kind of better insight into the
music he is playing? He is also a listener, and his opinions or music may be
(and mostly are) more accurate - he listens to it carefully - and more
interesting then the others, but i doubt he has any special insight into the
'music in itself'. Listening to the recordings i did with the band i' m in i
always find things that i didn't know. Music is always open, one never fully
captures it, as far as i can see.
Sorry for multiple post in a bunch, but i'm just back form a trip...
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<RAKEWELL
Where is my Venus? Why have you stolen her while
I slept? Madmen! Where have you hidden her?
MADMEN
Venus? Stolen? Hidden? Where?
Madman! No one has been here.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:18:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: vision fest question (fwd)

well to answer my own question, here's the scoop on the vision fest
parade, on friday may 19.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:13:02 -0700
From: Patricia Parker <[e-mail]>
To: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: vision fest question (fwd)

The Parade will start at the corner of 6 Street and Ave A at 6pm real
time. It will them precess north on A till 9 Street, then west to 4 Ave.
It will then go South to St Marks Pl and East to the venue 23 St Marks Pl.
Dress colorfully and see you there.  Pass the word on! Patricia

- ----------
>From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: vision fest question (fwd)
>Date: Fri, May 12, 2000, 10:36 AM
>

>
>>thanks for the ticket confirmation - I remember hearing something about a
>>parade to the venue on opening night, led by the little huey creative
>>music orchestra, but now I can't find any info on it.  is that actually
>>happening?  when & where does it start?
>>
>>thanks much,
>>ethan
>>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:35:03 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: John Butcher

Having seen him for the first time last night at Tonic and having been
blown away by both his phenomenal technique (after all these years you
would think one has heard everything that can be wrung out of a
saxophone--wrong) and the inherent musicality behind it and having not a
single Butcher release in hand, I come to my favorite source for
recommendations: you folk. Which are the necessary Butcher discs?

Thanks,

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:44:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: John Butcher

In a message dated 5/13/00 11:42:21 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Which are the necessary Butcher discs? >>

what seems to be the consensus pick of his acoustic work is The Scenic Route
(Emanem), with Phil Durrant and John Russell. he's also on Polwechsel 2, and
Polwechsel 3, which is out later this year, although that's much more subdued
than his normal work. the other two discs I have by him as a leader I don't
like quite as much, the duo with Georg Grawe, Light's View (Nuscope), and a
recent CD of solos and duos, Music On Seven Occasions (Meniscus).

as for his electroacoustic work, which is Phil Durrant processing his sound
live and playing it alongside the unprocessed sax, Secret Measures (Wobbly
Rail) was voted the top improv record of 1999 by the Wire, and the
as-yet-untitled studio followup will be out on Erstwhile in June or July.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:40:38 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Steve Berman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: John Butcher

>>>>> "JonAbbey2" == JonAbbey2  <[e-mail]> writes:

    JonAbbey2> what seems to be the consensus pick of his acoustic
    JonAbbey2> work is The Scenic Route (Emanem), with Phil Durrant
    JonAbbey2> and John Russell.

I'll go along with the consensus here, this is one of my favorite
recent improv records (I like it better than their _Concert Moves_
(Random Acoustics), which is also, however, good).

    JonAbbey2> he's also on Polwechsel 2, and
    JonAbbey2> Polwechsel 3, which is out later this year, although
    JonAbbey2> that's much more subdued than his normal work.

I haven't heard these, but I'd have though it would be hard for
Butcher to get more subdued than on _The Scenic Route_, which has some
of the most intense quiet improv I've heard (though it's not nearly as
quiet as, say, the Durrant/Lehn/Malfatti record _Beinhaltung_, but
whereas the latter is intense in the way it uses silence, _The Scenic
Route_'s intensity comes more from the sounds and their interplay).

    JonAbbey2> the other two discs I have by him as a leader I don't like
    JonAbbey2> quite as much, the duo with Georg Grawe, Light's View
    JonAbbey2> (Nuscope), and a recent CD of solos and duos, Music On
    JonAbbey2> Seven Occasions (Meniscus).

Butcher's collaboration with Graewe (and Hans Schneider and Martin
Blume, collectively called Frisque Concordance) on _Spellings_ (Random
Acoustics) is also very subddued and intense, though much different
than the trio with Durrant and Russell. Also an excellent record. As
for solo Butcher, I haven't heard the Meniscus, but both _13 Friendly
Numbers_ (Acta) and _London and Cologne_ (Rastacan) are excellent, and
quite different from each other: the former is an all studio recording
of short pieces, many with overdubbing -- in some ways reminiscent of
Evan Parker's _Process and Reality_, though the actual saxophone
sounds are mostly very different; the Rastascan is mostly in concert,
more extended performances.

    JonAbbey2> as for his electroacoustic work, which is Phil Durrant
    JonAbbey2> processing his sound live and playing it alongside the
    JonAbbey2> unprocessed sax, Secret Measures (Wobbly Rail) was
    JonAbbey2> voted the top improv record of 1999 by the Wire, and
    JonAbbey2> the as-yet-untitled studio followup will be out on
    JonAbbey2> Erstwhile in June or July.

For some reason, I haven't been bowled over by _Secret Measures_, and
I don't really know why. It's not that I don't like the combination (I
really like the Parker/Casserley record on Touch, for example).
Somehow, the processing of Butcher's saxophone doesn't mesh with the
unprocessed sound -- or doesn't contrast with it -- in a way I
appreciate (at least not yet -- I haven't yet given up on it). I'd be
interested to see if the studio recording appeals to me more.

There's another record with Butcher I would very strongly recommend:
_Navigations_, by Chris Burn's Ensemble (Acta). This is stunning group
improvisation (based on composed ideas or elements), where for the
most part no one voice (among the eleven participants) stands out, but
each contributes essentially to the overall effect (a cliche, but very
true here).

There are a number of other Butcher recordings I haven't heard; see
Peter Stubley's European Free Improvisation website
<www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/ehome.html>.

- --Steve Berman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:14:16 EDT
From: "& c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Names

Is the message, "Be creative and come up with your own name?"  This doesn't
sound like much of a unified Zorn fan front.  C'mon guys start fan clubs and
start making bubble gum statues of Zorn in your closets.  Show John how much
you care (or just freak him out).

Zach
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:36:05 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: that's not music!



>Why do you think the performer himself has a kind of better insight into
>the
>music he is playing?

I'm going to attempt to maintain that the musician does have some sort of
personal connection to, and/or resposablility for, the music he/she is
creating.  The musician puts elements of his/her own personality into the
performance (often times), consciously or unconciously.  These elements are
noticed most readily by the musician.  The listener identifies certain
elements within the music that speak most clearly to them...but these are
not neccessarily the same aspects of the music which the composer/performer
considers most important.  This does not mean that the composer/performer's
understanding is "better," it is simply the framework within which the
sounds were originally born.

Still, often composers/performers are not nearly entirely responsable for
the sounds which are being created...and to my mind some really interesting
music can be made when performers or composers are willing to not 'control'
the sounds being made.  Music can often decide paths to take and speak for
itself if the performer/composer is willing to take that risk.

The main thing I was objecting to was the idea that there is a process of
training that is neccessary to truely understand a music.  If you like
Gamelan music then learning about the cultural significance of the music may
enhance your enjoyment...but if the music does not really appeal to you then
learning about the value systems behind the music may not lead to enjoyment.
But I suppose I'm just not much of an advocate of musical enjoyment
concieved primarily on a cerebral level.  I'm sure there are plenty of
people out there who simply enjoy certain musics because of the theories
behind the sounds.

Matt Wirzbicki



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:21:21 -0500
From: neongreen7 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Uri Caine

a rare treat for minneapolis. i just saw uri's ensemble do Mahler Revisited.
wow. it's only been about an hour since the show ended, so i'm still really
blown away. i think this may have been the greatest show i've seen.

here's the line-up:
raplh alessi (trumpet)
jim black (drums)
don byron (clarinet)
Uri caine (piano
michael formanek (bass)
joyce hamman (violin)
DJ recloose (turntables)

this show was so incredible. i don't know if i could handle seeing masada or
dave douglas. this was my first time seeing any of these performers. jim
black really stole the show(in my opinion).

wanting more in minneapolis,
craig


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:40:59 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: that's not music!

> noticed most readily by the musician.  The listener identifies certain
> elements within the music that speak most clearly to them...but these are
> not neccessarily the same aspects of the music which the
composer/performer
> considers most important.  This does not mean that the
composer/performer's
> understanding is "better," it is simply the framework within which the
> sounds were originally born.

I would hope that the composer and/or performer have more of an
understanding of what they are playing than listeners. I realise you are
saying that more is not necessarily better, the listener can take what they
want from a work. But many composers do give us their own insight, just
take Zorn for example - most of his stuff has some sort of 'story' behind
it, and most of his cds have liner notes/pictures telling those stories. I
know that for me, many works wouldn't have quite the power that they have
without that aspect, Leng Tch'e for example...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:47:23 +0200
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Uri Caine

Uri will play Mahler in Poland in July at Jewish Culture Festival in
Krak=F3w. More info at:
http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/live.htm or
http://www.jewishfestival.art.pl/program_en.html

Thia festival starts right after Warsaw Summer Jazz Days, so, why
don't you just come to Poland for 2 weeks? That's what Anthony Coleman
did last year, he came with Ribot and Cubanos Postizos, then he was
playing his Sephardic Trio in Krakow, but he say to see Michael Alpert
and other performances. That's probably the period of the year when
Poland has most to offer - in terms of music.

Take care
    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] www.emd.pl


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 13:47:17 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: one more legal issue...

I'm just preparing myself to be flamed...

> On Fri, May 12, 2000 at 11:40:54AM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> > Which brings us to another trader's question -- The stuff that went out
of print: Is it kosher to copy and distribute that stuff amongst ourselves?
It has already seen daylight in a form acceptable to the artist, but cannot
be purchased, and is usually of interest to the people from whom that artist
is generating income.  Since guys like Ribot etc often record for labels
that don't last, what do we do about the distribution of THAT material?
> Since there seems to be a reissue frenzy afoot, this becomes a less
> simple issue. Would labels be as willing to reissue older
> recordings (compensating the artists, one hopes) if the tracks were
> widely available elsewhere?
>
> Viewed from this perspective, trading out-of-print recordings differs
> much less from those still in print -- each has a similar possibility
> of affecting artist income.
Well, i do think that copying a disc is not necessarily a bad thing. If
sobebody has a record i do not have, and especially if it is hardly
obtainable (the case of W&Win warsaw for example) i make a copy and do not
think very much about it. I do not think it is stealing, or anyhow
uncorrect, as long as the copies are about 5- 10 percent of my records.
By calling taping (discing, minidiscing...) a theft one assumes that
1) when you buy a record, you buy in fact the music, not the material object
itself.
2) when you make a copy, you get the music without paying for it, ie. you
steal it.
Permise 1 is not true. Why? Because of the practices of recording industry.
They sell material objects, not music. This is the list of practies that
imply that a record is an object, not the information
a) if your disc get scratched, or otherwise destroyed, you can't go to a
shop and ask for a new one for a small fee. Had it been the music i had
bought, that would be the case (that's what happens with computer software).
b) If you have a record and a remastered edition comes out, you pay the
whole proce whther you already have the music or not (we have a similiar
situation with  vinyl /cd transition - record companies got LOADS of cash on
it. Why? Ain't THAT stealing?).
Well, i supposed the list would be longer ;-) Never mind. As far as i can
see, it means that when i buy a cd i buy the object, not the info or music.
The situation is quite new - the possibility of making digital copies had a
great impact on it. In the old days, a disc was obvously an object, not
information: it had a lifetime, could not be precisely copied, etc. So the
situation was that one used to buy the best records as 'originals' and had
tapes of the records he did not like that much (and remember that there's a
special tax on tapes /cds and recorders for copyright reasons. If i buy a
blank cd or tape to record the music i do i pay that tax - and it is the
reason of the 'audio' cdrs being twice as expensive as the 'computer' ones.
As long as the tax is here i can say i paid for the copies i made. This tax
is pue hypocrisy - if makng copies is not allowed, it should be punished,
but not taxed. What's worse there's a f%^&**ng system called SCMS that does
not allow making the digital copies of a digital copy. It can be very
annoying in the studio work), and those copies were of lower quality. so
there was a clear reason for buying the original vinyl, a reason for buying
the same record twice -a tape and a vinyl - you did not have to pay for the
recorder, and so on. IMO This is also the source of radiculously high proces
of the recordings.
    Now with mp3, cdrs, and minidiscs, the whole situation has changed. one
can have an almost 1-1 copy of the original - and the companies are crying
for their cash. But they are not at all ready to take the consequences of
the new situation, worse, they're making money on it (the remasters).
    so i do believe that making copies, as long as it is not the primary
source of music, is ok (of course one should also consider the difference
between an independent  small company and a Sony.. But my post is long
enough...).
Flame on.
Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<RAKEWELL
Where is my Venus? Why have you stolen her while
I slept? Madmen! Where have you hidden her?
MADMEN
Venus? Stolen? Hidden? Where?
Madman! No one has been here.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:17:45 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: that's not music!

Matt wrote:
> I'm going to attempt to maintain that the musician does have some sort of
> personal connection to, and/or resposablility for, the music he/she is
> creating.  The musician puts elements of his/her own personality into the
> performance (often times), consciously or unconciously.  These elements
are
> noticed most readily by the musician.  The listener identifies certain
> elements within the music that speak most clearly to them...but these are
> not neccessarily the same aspects of the music which the
composer/performer
> considers most important.  This does not mean that the
composer/performer's
> understanding is "better," it is simply the framework within which the
> sounds were originally born.
> Still, often composers/performers are not nearly entirely responsable for
> the sounds which are being created...and to my mind some really
interesting
> music can be made when performers or composers are willing to not
'control'
> the sounds being made.  Music can often decide paths to take and speak for
> itself if the performer/composer is willing to take that risk.
What's worth poiting out is the difference between a live performance and a
recording here. In a recording, one is often surprised by what enters the
tape, what it sounds like when it's recorded. The enginner is really an
important part of the process.
> But I suppose I'm just not much of an advocate of musical enjoyment
> concieved primarily on a cerebral level.  I'm sure there are plenty of
> people out there who simply enjoy certain musics because of the theories
> behind the sounds.
I agree with you to some extent... buty there is something wrong with the
'theoretical' aproach to music. It is not that theories are or should be
forbidden, but... maybe it's just that we do not have the right theory - or
even a correct vocabulary.
Music is a complex phenomenon

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail]

<<RAKEWELL
Where is my Venus? Why have you stolen her while
I slept? Madmen! Where have you hidden her?
MADMEN
Venus? Stolen? Hidden? Where?
Madman! No one has been here.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #936
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