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2000-05-04
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #922
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, May 5 2000 Volume 02 : Number 922
In this issue:
-
new MP3: Bar Kokhba, Douglas, Sclavis, Frisell, Skeleton Crew...
Re: dare i say anything?
davis rhythm section (was ...)
Odp: dare i say anything?
Re: Incus records Question/Bailey and Taylor
Charms in Belgium
hancock/carter/williams (was: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live)
re: dare i say anything?
Re: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review
RE: dave douglas sextet live review
Re: dave douglas sextet live review
Re: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review
"old hat approach" / innovation (was:Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review)
re: "old hat approach"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 06:42:16 +0200
From: "Artur Nowak" <arno@emd.pl>
Subject: new MP3: Bar Kokhba, Douglas, Sclavis, Frisell, Skeleton Crew...
Hi Philozorners,
Yesterday I uploaded another 1 and half hour of live music in MP3
format:
BAR KOKHBA: Eitan; JOEY BARON: Closer Than You Think;
DAVE DOUGLAS: Out in the Cold, Prolix; DOUGLAS,
SCLAVIS, CHEVILLON, MERVILLE; FANT=D4MAS: Page 3; BILL
FRISELL: I Can't Be Satisfied, Poem for Eva; LOUNGE
LIZARDS; MARC RIBOT: Como Se Goza En El Barrio;
MASADA STRING TRIO: Moshav; MASSACRE: Legs, Bones;
MEDESKI MARTIN & WOOD; NAKED CITY: Latin Quarter,
Demon Sanctuary; PAINKILLER; SEX MOB; SHRIEVE,
FRISELL, HORVITZ: Sam The Man; SKELETON CREW: The
Birds of Japan; ZONY MASH: Sex Fiend, FYI; JOHN
ZORN: Xu Feng, Part 2.
This music is just great! Enjoy! http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/mp3.htm
__________________________________________________________________
Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl]
www.emd.pl - polish music magazine, mp3 and more
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 08:53:05 +0200
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <f.martinelli@comune.pisa.it>
Subject: Re: dare i say anything?
I saw the sextet in Le Mans at the 21st edition of the Europa Jazz Festival.
Over the last years, Dave Douglas if probably the single musicians I have
heard more times live: Masada, duo w. Bennink, Sextet. I felt a lot of
tension in the group and Dave did strange things - tried to speak in french,
got tangled into the translation of 92 (quatre vingt douze if you care) and
while someone from the audience shouted something that I understood was
encouragement, he had a slightly psycho reaction, repeating "It's my
problem, it's not your problem, you understand?" Then he mistreated the
speaking mike and finally threw it on the ground. I agree that some of the
musicians are not on the level of the others, but I enjoyed enormously
Joshua Roseman's solos and obbligatos. Uri Caine is vastly underused in the
group, and even physically hidden in the back; I agree that Greg Tardy is
not yet very interesting, but I think he may grow; Genus on bass had a
limited solo space but impressed me with the power of his sustain. however
the Mary Lou Williams arrangements were very good. I didn't have money
enough to purchase his Verve Cd - my priorities were
- - a Kenny Dorham live tape on Magnetic (halfprice) oops, does this mean
anything in connection with the above?
- - Orgasm by Alan Shorter (no, not related to the making love theme: I myself
experienced with Turns by Bley/Gilmore, if anyone cares to know)
- - Nipples by Brotzmann (shut up)
- - Black Mass reissue
- - two collections ofTurkish music on Ocora with excellent notes
and the new releases by Ibarra Trio, Ibarra/Bailey, Taylor Ensemble,
Schlippenbach trio, Vertrek/Bailey.
I've also been sent the new Trovesi/Coscia cd on ECM (uhm uhm) and the
Garrett/Fasteau (Sea Ensemble) double Cd on Flying Note, including Live at
Ankara... looking forward to this one.
Francois
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:14:09 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcing@mospan.pl>
Subject: davis rhythm section (was ...)
> Everyone throws around comparisons to the Hancock/Carter/Williams rhythm
> axis, but the truth is that if anybody even came CLOSE to being that
> interesting, EVERYBODY would sit up and take notice. Most jazz musicians
> 'play at' that 'style', as they 'play at' most 'styles,' and it ends up
> sounding just like that.
and notice that almost nobody cares ( in a sense that their style is rarely
imitated) about the late albums, like in the sky or filles de kilimanjaro
(my favourite Davis). The rhythm sections kills, and the solos are
unbelievable...
Marcin Gokieli
marcing@mospan.pl
<<RAKEWELL
Where is my Venus? Why have you stolen her while
I slept? Madmen! Where have you hidden her?
MADMEN
Venus? Stolen? Hidden? Where?
Madman! No one has been here.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:25:52 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcing@mospan.pl>
Subject: Odp: dare i say anything?
A to being unimpressed...
It's strange, when i buy a DD album, i love it at first, but then i listen
to them it rarely...
Marcin Gokieli
marcing@mospan.pl
<<RAKEWELL
Where is my Venus? Why have you stolen her while
I slept? Madmen! Where have you hidden her?
MADMEN
Venus? Stolen? Hidden? Where?
Madman! No one has been here.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew W Wirzbicki (S) <M_WIRZBICKI@ColoradoCollege.edu>
To: <Nudeants@aol.com>
Cc: <zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 11:23 PM
Subject: RE: dare i say anything?
> << i like it when the vitriol flies around here, so i'll ally with
> patRice a
> little
> and say i've usually been disappointed with douglas' own projects. it's
> nice
> to
> know that, even if i am the only one in the u.s., there's someone else
> somewhere
> who's unimpressed. >>
>
> >Actually, you're not the only one in the US.
>
> I'll be a vocal third in the unimpressed catagory
>
>
> -
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 09:51:56 +0100
From: "Peter Marsh" <marshp@richmond.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Incus records Question/Bailey and Taylor
Julian wrote:
>Is everything released on Incus records free improvisation?
AFAIK, yes.
>Not wanting to start a mailing nightmare, but if anyone has a few
>particular favourites on that label, please tell me (preferably with a
>reason or two)... Thanks.
My personal fave is Derek Bailey and Tony Coe's 'Time', which is as close to
lyrical as uncle Derek's playing gets, really. Coe (a much undersung player
IMHO) whips out some beautiful clarinet. Play it at low volume and you could
almost soundtrack a dinner party with it :-)
At the other end of the spectrum, there's Derek and Jamie Muir's 'Dart
Drug', which is slightly more uncompromising. it's pretty poorly recorded as
well, but in this case it seems to add a certain ambience to the record that
serves it well. (Bailey has always been rather diffident about the value of
recordings of free improv, stating that an audio recording is not a
recording of the improvisation, but merely a document of what the group
played - this possibly explains the lack of attention to fidelity on a lot
of Incus discs) Derek uses a lot of feedback and Muir appears to be sawing
polystyrene blocks a lot of the time as well as hitting everything in sight.
Shame he didn't stay in King Crimson longer...
I'm not sure if either of these are out on CD and the vinyls are probably v.
rare now - sorry for the elitism.
Brian wrote:
>Bailey, on the other hand,
>never once looked up at Taylor during the entire set, but reacted
>instantaneously to almost everything Cecil played.
if their FMP disc is anything to go by, does this mean he reacted by
ignoring everything Cecil did ?
(just kidding...)
Peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:17:06 +0200
From: "Rob Allaert" <rob.allaert@charity.nu>
Subject: Charms in Belgium
Belgian citizens,
* Anthony Coleman+Rodriguez+Street: 06 May 2000 - Beursschouwburg -Brussels
* Matt Darriau+Art Barron+Laster+frank London+Brad
Shepik+Fitzgerald+Schuller: 18,19,20 May - Beursschouwburg -Brussels
* Klezmer Madness: 25 May 2000 - Beursschouwburg -Brussels
* Bill Frisell: ? May - Brussels ?
* Marc Ribot, cubanos: 31 May 2000: AB - Brussels
* Kronos 4tet: 06 June 2000 - Paleis Schone Kunsten - Brussel
* Dave Douglas' Charms 4tet: 22 Oct 2000 - AB - Brussels
Want more ??
Rob << .......
http://www.frontstage.com/rob
icq#18906168
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:08:13 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: hancock/carter/williams (was: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live)
>>Everyone throws around comparisons to the Hancock/Carter/Williams rhythm
>>axis, but the truth is that if anybody even came CLOSE to being that
>>interesting, EVERYBODY would sit up and take notice. Most jazz musicians
>>'play at' that 'style', as they 'play at' most 'styles,' and it ends up
>>sounding just like that.
amen to that, matt! i would be the first one to rave about a new rhythm
section that could move me that way!
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:08:20 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: re: dare i say anything?
YES, YES!
I ALSO HOPE THIS IS GOING TO BE MY LAST MAIL ON THIS THING I STARTED
HERE...
sorry to everyone who got pissed off about the amount of "dave douglas
sextet live review" mails...
>>i like it when the vitriol flies around here, so i'll ally with patRice a little
>>and say i've usually been disappointed with douglas' own projects. it's nice to
>>know that, even if i am the only one in the u.s., there's someone else somewhere
>>who's unimpressed.
again things are being a bit misinterpreted here. it's not that none of
douglas' own projects fail to "impress" me. (maybe impress is not quite
the right word here.)
it was the sextet live gig that i felt was really bad and a waste of my
time.
on the other hand, like i said in my first mail, the marylou williams
stuff was quite good. i enjoyed that; but it was only about ten minutes
of the whole gig...
>> but what i have heard just always seemed routine. and i really hate to
>>say that.
that was another impression i had. the solos reminded me of my masada
cds. (and yes, i do have the complete collection...)
>>my man patRice also says "isn't that one of the great things about this list:
>>somebody writes about an album you have, but haven't listen to for ages. you
>>decide you feel like listening to it when you get home - and: bliss! ;-)," which
>>is one of my fave things about hanging out here. i actually keep a list of discs
>>recommended here that i own, and try to work my way through those (i have a bad
>>habit of buying dozens and listening to the same two if left to my own
>>predilictions).
i stopped buying albums if just one or two people say good things about
them here on the list. too many times i got the impression "wow, that
one must be fantastic" - just to find out i'd wasted money on something
that doesn't move me at all. (in case anyone wonders why i then still
keep asking for requests on this or that artist: i always go
cd&record-shopping in switzerland, and there you are able to listen to
as many cds/records as you want before purchasing them. as far as i know
that is no longer very common in other countries. is this correct?)
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:08:05 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review
>>I object to somebody saying a forty year old approach is dated and therefore
>>renders "antiquated" (re: not hip enough) the people who take that approach.
>>Usually the people who grouse about something being out of date are not very
>>good musicians.
good god! who things and words to get turned around and twisted! it's
unbelievable!!!
did i say a forty year old approach is dated and not hip enough? no, i
didn't!
even an approach that is a hundred thousand years old is valid, and
everyone has got the right to work on something with that approach. the
problem is (in music most definitely) that often with an "old approach",
there have been a lot of people doing music in that vein, the limits
that are set have been reached. or more or less reached. and in those
cases, it is very difficult to come up with something good and
innovative, using that same approach.
that's why i feel i would rather listen to jazz recordings from the 50s
or 60s as opposed to someone doing a rehash of that in the year 2000.
>>Also, in the case of somebody like Dave Douglas, who can be pretty
>>controlling in his music, I think the thing of changing drummers in
>>mid-stream so frequently is not helping the matter. Ben is the third drummer
>>DD has used in the sextet.
couldn't it be proof that maybe dave is not very good at judging
drummers' skills? (i know this might sound provocing, and it's a very
vague guess. but, as we all know, getting the right people together for
a music project can be the most difficult part.)
>>As for having heard Ben sound great, he can. I heard his trio record with
>>Chris and found him very inventive. I know Uri likes playing with him, and
>>Uri can be hard on white drummers.
great! like i said: it's all down to personal taste. if uri likes him:
lucky ben! but it doesn't change the way i see him...
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:07:58 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: RE: dave douglas sextet live review
hugo wrote:
>> I do agree what Whit states and I disagree to compare Douglas' music
>>with Dream Theatre so far.
hold it, hold it! never did i compare the dave douglas sextet to dream
theater! i simply said that the dd thing was too wanky-wanky, show-offy
- - and that if i wanted that, i would rather go an see dream theater.
there is a big difference there!!!
>> Maybe the guy who saw the show had a bad night whatsoever...it's a
>>possibility.
>> Who knows?
i know, because i am the guy. and no: i did not have a bad day at all.
because if i do have a bad day, i do not go to concerts. no matter who
is in town. (about two or three years ago i even didn't go to see bar
kokhba live because i was in a bad mood!)
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:07:47 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: dave douglas sextet live review
whit wrote:
>>I saw perowsky with an incaranation of douglas' quartet (mark turner on
>>sax, ed howard on bass) in april '99, and thought his playing was great.
>>based on that experience, i have difficulty imagining a performance of his
>>being "horrible," but i suppose everyone can have an off night.
well, whit, i was there.
i'm a drummer myself and think i can judge performances - and "rather
horrible" was the impression i got.
mind: it still has to do with personal taste!
but, like i said about three times now, what really bothered me the most
was the fact that he played REALLY LOUD throughout the whole gig!
>>As for the 'retro' or 'old hat' nature of douglas' sextet repertoire, one
>>could attempt to defend it through a consideration of the other sorts of
>>music constituting the remainder of douglas' output: the sextet pieces are
>>only one element of a larger project of musical synthesis (in terms of a
>>diviersity of styles) and exploration. but this is compatible with the
>>music itself still being worthless.
well, one could definitely attempt that; but:
if i go to a concert and dislike it (as was the case with the dd sextet)
- - i don't really care about what the bandleader does in his other
projects. "tonight is not interesting, but at least all his other
cds/gigs i've heard so far were pretty good"; that would not be me.
if i'm there and it sucks; it sucks. and that usually pisses me off...
(because i put time, money and energy into getting there.)
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:12:50 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review
OH NO! ANOTHER ONE! hopefully the very last. (though this'll obviously
also depend on people's reactions...)
>>I object to somebody saying a forty year old approach is dated and therefore
>>renders "antiquated" (re: not hip enough) the people who take that approach.
>>Usually the people who grouse about something being out of date are not very
>>good musicians.
i wrote:
>>good god! who things and words to get turned around and twisted! it's unbelievable!!!
of course i meant: HOW! (yes, spelling vely difficurt some taim...) ;-)
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 17:44:20 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: "old hat approach" / innovation (was:Re: Odp: dave douglas sextet live review)
Velaires@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/5/00 8:08:36 AM, you wrote:
>
> <<there have been a lot of people doing music in that vein, the limits
> that are set have been reached. or more or less reached. and in those
> cases, it is very difficult to come up with something good and
> innovative, using that same approach.
> >>
>
> This reminds me of something Tommy Flanagan said -- "I still play bebop
> because I haven't mastered it." How many people master ANY style of ensemble
> improvising, be it 60 Miles or 20's hot jazz? The challenge is ALWAYS to come
> up with something good and innovative, and the odds are against you at all
> times. It doesn't make it old hat to not succeed, just like it's not old hat
> to recapture the spirit of it when you do succeed.
>
> skip h
well okay.
when can one actually say and be 100 % correct that this or that has
been fully mastered? that it cannot possibly be taken any further?
however, the standards for jazz have been set very high in the past,
because there were so many great people involved in jazz, trying to take
it further all the time. so those high standards are the ones you should
at least achieve if you use that approach nowadays; if not go (play)
beyond them. imho, even the dave douglas sextet failed...
maybe tommy flanagan just wasn't capable enough or daring enough to go
out there and try something new. (let me add that i do not know tommy
flanagan or his work.)
patRice
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:59:13 EDT
From: Velaires@aol.com
Subject: re: "old hat approach"
In a message dated 5/5/00 8:44:32 AM, you wrote:
<<when can one actually say and be 100 % correct that this or that has
been fully mastered? that it cannot possibly be taken any further?
That's subjective. And I don't know that it's a self-conscious thing of
saying, "I've mastered it", but rather "I've done everything I can with
THIS", and then processing new information and techniqiues, to say nothing of
what happens on the spot between musicians in an interactive ensemble.
Anything can be taken further. The question is as to *how* and, for that
matter, who thinks it's "further".
>>however, the standards for jazz have been set very high in the past,
because there were so many great people involved in jazz, trying to take
it further all the time.
Certainly. On the other hand, listeneing thru the entire PLUGGED NICKEL box
set shows that even the Miles Quintet at their peak weren't reaching that
high level every night.
The other thing to take into account is that raising the bar often involves a
great deal of trial and error. How many failed experiments are important to
the process? And, on that level, are we factoring in brevity? An interesting,
fiery failure is always most interesting to me than a bland success.
>>so those high standards are the ones you should at least achieve if you use
that approach nowadays; if not go (play)
beyond them.
Tricky. You could be ready to commit an brilliant act of jazz, only to be
sabotaged by a bad soundman who doesn't turn your monitors on.
>>imho, even the dave douglas sextet failed...
And, on some other nights, they've been positively inspiring. The law of
averages hits ensemble improvising harder than most things.
>>maybe tommy flanagan just wasn't capable enough or daring enough to go
out there and try something new. (let me add that i do not know tommy
flanagan or his work.)
Maybe. But bebop piano would be infinitely poorer if not for him. Also,
some people, by character, are not constitutionally fit to be mavericks.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't play jazz, or that they won't play
compellingly.
Best--
skip h
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #922
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