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2000-03-06
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #879
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, March 7 2000 Volume 02 : Number 879
In this issue:
-
re: musicology and hair care
Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
Re: mr. mister
Re: bass solos (was dave douglas sextet)
Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #878
Re: NYC underground
Genus
Re: NYC underground
Drummers
Re: Drummers
people like us/(was all things considered )
ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
Re: people like us/(was all things considered )
Re: ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
march releases
Re: ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
Wuorinen
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:46:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Matt Moran <moran@staff.juno.com>
Subject: re: musicology and hair care
> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:03 EST
> From: XRedbirdxx@aol.com
> Subject: musicology (hello Jeni)
>
> This weekend I heard Charles Wuorinen, of all people, dub musicology as:
>
> "Words without Song"
I'm guessing that he was putting a spin on Charles Ives' phrase "songs
without words"; Ives sure had it in for a lot of nice musicologists
himself.
Tonic sure does book great moussic. I pertsonally haven't been distracted
by the hair care choices of the patrons.
- -matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:11:05 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
> It's more about the drummers. I think there are very few drummers
> who can take a meaningful solo. I think Jowy Baron is one of them.
> He can actually convey something (to me) when he solos. Most of the
> other drummers sound like they're having a show-off session or a chop
> practice. Art Blakey is notorious in my book for having extremely
> boring drum solos. The only other drummers that I know of who really
> can move me during a drum solo are Jim Black and Max Roach. Any
> thoughts on this?
There are many players of melodic instruments who don't take meaningful
solos also...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:41:26 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <dan@synsolutions.com>
Subject: Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
At 11:11 AM +1100 3/7/00, Julian wrote:
> > It's more about the drummers. I think there are very few drummers
>> who can take a meaningful solo. I think Jowy Baron is one of them.
>> He can actually convey something (to me) when he solos. Most of the
>> other drummers sound like they're having a show-off session or a chop
>> practice. Art Blakey is notorious in my book for having extremely
>> boring drum solos. The only other drummers that I know of who really
>> can move me during a drum solo are Jim Black and Max Roach. Any
>> thoughts on this?
>
>There are many players of melodic instruments who don't take meaningful
>solos also...
That's true. I guess what I'm getting at is that perhaps a higher
percentage of drummers don't take meaningful solos.
I'm beginning to realize, based on responses on list and off, that I
may catch a lot of flak for these remarks.
Dan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:44:04 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <dan@synsolutions.com>
Subject: Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
>>The second is that I don't often like bass solos or drum solos.
>>Bass solos often seem like they don't fit in with the mood of most
>>upbeat tunes. The level of the music has to come way down in order
>>for the bass to even be heard well enough. Bass solos can work as
>>an intro or outro often.
>
>I love the bass solos, james had an incredible bass solo on the
>third tune!! What other projects has he been involved in? I want to
>hear more of him.
I am not knocking James' playing. I'm just referring to bass solos in general.
>>But that's not really what I wanted to mention. It's more about the
>>drummers. I think there are very few drummers who can take a
>>meaningful solo. I think Jowy Baron is one of them. He can
>>actually convey something (to me) when he solos. Most of the other
>>drummers sound like they're having a show-off session or a chop
>>practice.
>
>joey is the choppiest player but does it tastefully, he will use a
>trick once and that is it. He was so melodic, the solos he takes are
>so musical! Did you notice how he would smack the triangle at the
>end of almost every tune?
by "chop practice" I mean that the drummer seems to be practicing
his/her chops.
I loved the triangle as punctuation!
Dan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:53:45 -0700
From: "Tom Johnson" <signals2000@home.com>
Subject: Re: mr. mister
> Messrs. abbreviation of Messieurs, from French, plural of Monsieur
. . . and now I stand corrected! :-)
Tom
- ----------------------------
"Go for super-stud! Go for super-stud!"
--Bill, on Freaks & Geeks
"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
career.
I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or
processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair
anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to
do that."
--Lloyd, from Say Anything
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 22:10:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Whit Schonbein <whit@twinearth.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: bass solos (was dave douglas sextet)
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Zorn List Digest wrote:
> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:24:16 -0500
> From: Dan Hewins <dan@synsolutions.com>
> Subject: Re: dave douglas sextet (plus clapping and drummers)
>
<SNIP>
>
> The second is that I don't often like bass solos or drum solos.
I in general agree, although one of the reasons bass solos don't always
work is because the aforementioned 'post-solo-clapping' always overwhelms
the all important subtle transition from the previous soloist. That being
said, Dave Holland and Richard Davis can both pull off bass solos
that somehow fit with the music, more than with your typical bass solo
whit (not a bass expert)
np - don caballero, 10 december 1999 @ the knit fac (thanks, smash)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 23:58:28 EST
From: Brennansf@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #878
I would put Jack DeJohnette with those who can construct a drum solo that is
meaningful and moving.
jb
<< The only other drummers that I know of who really
can move me during a drum solo are Jim Black and Max Roach. Any
thoughts on this? >>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 01:26:09 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: NYC underground
XRedbirdxx@aol.com wrote:
> I'm visiting NY for a couple weeks. Went to Tonic last night for the first
> time (Liminal playing) and was rather surprised at the amount of mousse in
> the room (as in Vidal Sassoon). Seemed quite a trendy place.
Perhaps you shouldn't have initiated your experience with a show by Liminal, a
d'n'b project which, however clever, would not disrupt the conversations of those
partisans bearing said quantities of mousse. After hours, the lower east side is
now crawling with all kinds of party scum, but during prime music hours (8
p.m.-12 a.m.), well, that's another story. And actually, Tonic more often than
not tries to extend the "real music" curfew by presenting some pretty exemplary
stuff on Thursday-Saturday nights after midnight...
Pardon me for being a bit defensive, but 99% of the time, Tonic is the outest
place you'll find in NYC, Zornlist-wise. (I can't speak to any trends bubbling
up more currently than that.) True, they do have to make a buck here and there,
and true, they're in a currently trendy Ann Powers-Bohemian part of town. But
give them the benefit of a doubt - if it's mousse you're noticing above all else,
then you've just come to the wrong show or on the wrong night or at the wrong
time. Like pretty much any other club you might have sampled.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:41:57 EST
From: XRedbirdxx@aol.com
Subject: Genus
<< I love the bass solos, james had an incredible bass solo on the third
tune!! What other projects has he been involved in? I want to hear
more of him.
>>
Though mine's not around to confirm, I believe you can find him on Uri
Caine's Blue Wail. And yes that would be in an elegant snuggly cozy Winter
and Winter case.
Joseph
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 01:44:09 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: NYC underground
In a message dated 3/7/00 1:34:27 AM, ssmith36@sprynet.com writes:
<< Pardon me for being a bit defensive, but 99% of the time, Tonic is the
outest
place you'll find in NYC, Zornlist-wise. (I can't speak to any trends
bubbling
up more currently than that.) True, they do have to make a buck here and
there,
and true, they're in a currently trendy Ann Powers-Bohemian part of town. But
give them the benefit of a doubt - if it's mousse you're noticing above all
else,
then you've just come to the wrong show or on the wrong night or at the wrong
time. Like pretty much any other club you might have sampled. >>
yup, agreed on all counts. I'd say at least half of the shows I go to these
days are at Tonic, and many of the best ones are there. I checked out the
subTonic lounge for the first time on Saturday night (I saw Hrvatski,
I-Sound, and DJ Scud), and it was kind of a lame crowd, but no more
trendy/Eurotrash than any other NYC club might be on a Saturday night.
plus, rumor has it that Derek Bailey is curating the May schedule. I'm
guessing the mousse factor will be low that month....
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 08:18:37 +0100
From: Anders Fransson <anders.fransson@bibl.oru.se>
Subject: Drummers
Brennansf@aol.com wrote:
>=20
> I would put Jack DeJohnette with those who can construct a drum solo th=
at is
> meaningful and moving.
>=20
> jb
Yes! and Peter Erskine, Tony Oxley, Han Bennink, Roy Haynes...
> << The only other drummers that I know of who really
> can move me during a drum solo are Jim Black and Max Roach. Any
> thoughts on this? >>
Black is one of the best, but Roach was better in the fifties.
- --=20
_________________________________________________________________________=
____
Anders Fransson
F=F6rv=E4rv monografier/Acquisition monographs,
Universitetsbiblioteket, =D6rebro universitet,
701 82 =D6rebro, Sweden.
e-mail. anders.fransson@bibl.oru.se
Phone. +46 19 30 38 66 Fax. +46 19 30 38 55
_________________________________________________________________________=
____
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:50:18 GMT+0100
From: "Jeroen de Boer" <Usva-Th2@bureau.rug.nl>
Subject: Re: Drummers
> > << The only other drummers that I know of who really
> > can move me during a drum solo are Jim Black and Max Roach. Any
> > thoughts on this? >>
Jim Black definitely is one of my absolute favourites. I saw him the
first time a couple of years ago when he performed with the Tiny Bell
Trio at the Groningen Jazz Marathon. I think he is one of the most
promising drummers, because he plays 'musically'. Does he ever do
solo-performances?
Another drummer who used to amaze me is Trilok Gurtu, especially with
the John McLaughlin Trio. I lost track of him after his second
solo-record. I don't remember the title of the album, but it features
ao David Gilmore.
Jeroen
np. Dafeldecker, Fussenegger, Kovacic - Printer (Durian Records
011-2)
- ----------------------------------------
Jeroen de Boer
co-initiator Cyberslag Foundation
music director Open Electronic Festival
Munnekeholm 10
9711JA Groningen
The Netherlands
tel: 031 (0)503637513
fax: 031 (0)503632209
J.T.de.Boer@let.rug.nl
usva-th2@bureau.rug.nl
http://www.cyberslag.com
- ----------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 10:08:41 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: people like us/(was all things considered )
ok, now that that's settled, let me confuse it again. this weekend i picked up a
disc on soleilmoon, looks to be a tribute to "people like us," tracks by coil,
negativland, stock hausen and walkman, etc. nothing about it sounds a bit like
the joel forrester record i have (yeah, i was confused on the forrester/
futterman situation) so it couldn't be that. is this a tribute to some one/thing
else, or is it just to people like us? there's no kinda liner notes. it's pretty
good, pretty twisted.
kg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:11:17 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
Case askd:
Just wondering if anyone would care to post a reveiw of the recent KF
show featuring these 2 artists?
i was there. i was interested in the whole line-up, but was probably one of the
few (only?) there mostly to see kato hideki. i think he's a really strong
bassist who often needs to be pushed. drummer sim cain did just that, and kato
was doing some nice, strong, heavy work. that said, sim i thought forced the
band into grooves a little more than i'd like. (is this a big mmw aftershock?
i'm getting tired of the tendency toward groove among players that i think have
a much wider vocabulary). ribot was absolutely there to play and worked his
freakin ass off, and it was the best patton outside performance i've seen (altho
i've only seen him in setting like this, no faith, bungle, fantomas, etc., just
one-off things or solo things). a lot more textures and ideas going on then at
the zorn/mori/patton set, for example.
Bob Ostertag: Fear no love (Avant) - my generous review could be that i haven't
listened to this enough to find the redeeming qualities. unfortunately, i
probably never will. i like ostertag's work (although his tape loops of a boy in
el salvador at his father's funeral were way too much for me), but this is like
a bad joke. draggy disco crap.
Meanwhile, Dan H sez: One is that sometimes the Jazz protocol of clapping after
solos annoys me.
i agree. i find it obnoxious -- although i really like it when someone feels
moved to talk back to the soloist. miles davis once called applauding audience
members something like overstimulated cavemen.
And adds: The second is that I don't often like bass solos or drum solos.
i feel sorry for you.
kg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:13:15 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: people like us/(was all things considered )
In a message dated 3/7/00 10:09:51 AM, kurt_gottschalk@scni.com writes:
<< this weekend i picked up a
disc on soleilmoon, looks to be a tribute to "people like us," tracks by coil,
negativland, stock hausen and walkman, etc. nothing about it sounds a bit like
the joel forrester record i have (yeah, i was confused on the forrester/
futterman situation) so it couldn't be that. is this a tribute to some
one/thing
else, or is it just to people like us? there's no kinda liner notes. it's
pretty
good, pretty twisted. >>
this is an English woman named Vicki Bennett, who also calls herself People
Like Us, and performs plunderphonic type material. web site at
www.peoplelikeus.org, short article in the November issue of the Wire.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 08:19:42 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:11:17 -0500 kurt_gottschalk@scni.com wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, Dan H sez: One is that sometimes the Jazz protocol of clapping after
> solos annoys me.
>
> i agree. i find it obnoxious -- although i really like it when someone feels
What is even more obnoxious is to notice the audience psychology (or to phrase
it more accurately, its total lack of). The vast majority of the audience has
no clue about clapping or not. All this phenomena is triggered by a very small
number of people in the audience, and, I guess, the vast majority of the
audience feels too stupid not to follow on... If these people decide to clap,
everybody claps; if they judge the solo not worth to, they don't and the room
is totally silent...
Patrice (wondering about the new trend: systematic stand up ovation).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:48:04 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: march releases
coupla things that might be of innerest to this list, in case you didn't know...
3/7 - The Melvins crank "The Crybaby" (Ipecac) with help from Tool, Mike Patton
(ex-Faith No More) and Leif Garrett (revisiting "Smells Like Teen Spirit").
3/14 - Guitarist David Fiuczynski puts standards tunes from Chick Corea, Jimi
Hendrix, Pat Metheny, Frederic Chopin and more through some wicked changes on
"JazzPunk" (Morsel, available only on line at torsos.com).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:00:54 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: ribotpatton/fearnolove/claps'n'solos
One interesting challenge is to structure the compositional aspects of
the piece so that solos don't stand out as detachable chunks, but dovetail
in and out, defeating the pavlovian "applaud now" trigger. We do this in
a lot of our pieces in Comma/Gray Code, and I suspect it's true in the
Zorn games.
(And where the bleep is the long-rumoured book of his scores?)
On Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 08:19:42AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 11:11:17 -0500 kurt_gottschalk@scni.com wrote:
> >
> > Meanwhile, Dan H sez: One is that sometimes the Jazz protocol of clapping after
> > solos annoys me.
> >
> > i agree. i find it obnoxious -- although i really like it when someone feels
>
> What is even more obnoxious is to notice the audience psychology (or to phrase
> it more accurately, its total lack of). The vast majority of the audience has
> no clue about clapping or not. All this phenomena is triggered by a very small
> number of people in the audience, and, I guess, the vast majority of the
> audience feels too stupid not to follow on... If these people decide to clap,
> everybody claps; if they judge the solo not worth to, they don't and the room
> is totally silent...
>
> Patrice (wondering about the new trend: systematic stand up ovation).
>
> -
>
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:50:50 -0500
From: colin_cigarran@sonymusic.com
Subject: Wuorinen
- --0__=vaVjUvMgmZwTdR04MytWWYfYVevjeWi7F38TaK8jEyO6JARvBmlxxCHV
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Where did you hear Wuorinen speak? A lecture or a radio broadcast? He's an
interesting guy, and like Ives, a bit prickly, or so I hear.
I was sorry to have missed the performance of his "Percussion Symphony" at
Cooper Union a few months back. Did you catch it? I have the recording on
Nonesuch, with different performers, and it's worthwhile but a piece like that
really ought to be experienced live for full effect (like most music, I
suppose). Same thing with Joseph Schwantner's work which I was lucky enough to
hear at Avery Fisher Hall (his Percussion Concerto) a couple seasons ago with NY
Phil. and Christopher Lamb as soloist. Amazing.
(Embedded
image moved moran@staff.juno.com
to file: 03/06/2000 06:46 PM
pic30507.pcx)
To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
cc: (bcc: Colin Cigarran)
Subject: re: musicology and hair care
> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:03 EST
> From: XRedbirdxx@aol.com
> Subject: musicology (hello Jeni)
>
> This weekend I heard Charles Wuorinen, of all people, dub musicology as:
>
> "Words without Song"
I'm guessing that he was putting a spin on Charles Ives' phrase "songs
without words"; Ives sure had it in for a lot of nice musicologists
himself.
Tonic sure does book great moussic. I pertsonally haven't been distracted
by the hair care choices of the patrons.
- -matt
- -
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- --0__=vaVjUvMgmZwTdR04MytWWYfYVevjeWi7F38TaK8jEyO6JARvBmlxxCHV--
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #879
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