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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, January 25 2000       Volume 02 : Number 842



In this issue:
-
       Re: dave d & indie cool
       Re: dave d & indie cool
       Ljova's first bout with improvising.
       Ornette (was Re: dave d & indie cool)
       opinion on tzadik albums
       Re: Taboo and Exile photo
       Re: Bill Laswell's Jazzonia
       if you're not ravish, delete
       Re: Ornette (was Re: dave d & indie cool)
       Re: dave d & indie cool
       The Accused

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:22:37 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dave d & indie cool

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << While I can't think of many alternative rock bands that truly flourished
> after passing from an indie to a major since Nirvana >>
>
> I'm not exactly sure whether you're talking about artistically or financially
> flourishing here.

Well, upon reflection, I guess I meant both and neither at the same time.  (Huh?)

You are most definitely right on the money in everything you say about Boredoms,
Ween, Stereolab and Monster Magnet, artistically.  But in none of these cases has
this resulted in any kind of huge leap in mainstream awareness of these acts
(Stereolab a minor exception, perhaps), I'd argue.  And most likely the sales
figures reflect this to varying degrees.

Have any of these bands (again, Smashing Pumpkins and the currently-being-sued
Hole aside) sold so much more because they're on a major?  Debatable.  Have they
received more press attention because they are or were on a major?  Most likely,
but even that's arguable - for such bands, a feature in Magnet means more to fans
than a feature in People, anyway.  Have their records been stocked by (and
subsequently returned by) more stores across the USA?  Almost assuredly.

In a subsequent e-mail A. made some good points about what happened when Faith No
More and Jane's Addiction hit the majors - both improved demonstrably on an
artistic level, resulting in well-deserved and comparatively vast sales, and I'd
argue that it was largely because of major label recording schedules and
budgets.  In the former case, it also helped that Mike Patton happened to replace
Chuck Mosely, but even that might not have had the same impact if there hadn't
been major label funds to make the breakthrough video for "Epic" - nothing they
did after that single had nearly the same aboveground impact.  In the latter
case, major label recording bucks definitely helped Jane's Addiction get the
totality of their package across... no matter how cool the original Triple X
version of "Jane Says" might have been, nothing on that live debut album could
have propelled the band into the spotlight in the same way that the titanic (and
no doubt expensive) production of 'Nothing's Shocking' did.  And it's also clear
that none of the various side projects of the various Jane's members has been
able to recapture that initial rush... but I'll bet that 'Nothing's Shocking' and
'Ritual de lo Habitual' are still selling.

I guess those are two more examples to add to Jon's regarding indie bands whose
quality of output improved after switching to the majors.  On the other hand,
Husker Du improved not at all, and fell apart in a hurry...  Same with fIREHOSE.

Re: the Columbia/Earache merger, ill-advised on all parts: none of the Earache
bands did their best work for Columbia, though maybe Cathedral came close (and
for some reason Earache continues to claim 'Fear, Emptiness, Despair' as some
kind of high water mark for Napalm Death - NOT).  And Carcass, in mainstreaming
their approach for their one Columbia release, went a long, long way towards what
the true grindcore fans would (and DID) call "selling out" - mind you,
'Heartwork' is one of my very favorite albums of all, but it's not an especially
good representation of what Carcass was originally all about - and they STILL
managed to get screwed and then dropped.

I'm surmising that at some point there really is a fundamental difference between
alternative art and popular culture, and no matter how a major may try to co-opt
the indie cred of an alternative label or act, eventually there's nothing major
label money alone can do to break and sustain a radically different band.  (Most
of the abovementioned success stories where sales are concerned are bands based
in some significant way upon the received and embalmed rock tradition[s].)  You
can put the Boredoms in the bins of the most mainstream store in the heartland
and maybe even get a review planted in Entertainment Weekly, but can you maken
the *average* heartland buyer want to purchase their recordings?  And if the
answer is no, is it because the Boredoms have in some way failed?

Or another way to state it: does every alternative success stand a chance of
becoming a mainstream success?

It'll be interesting to see how the mainstream will embrace Dave Douglas's
clearly and understandably jazz-based sextet in a tribute to Mary Lou Williams,
given his indie cred, and even more interesting to see how they react to
subsequent recordings by Charms of the Night Sky and beyond.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:22:37 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dave d & indie cool

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] writes:
>
> << While I can't think of many alternative rock bands that truly flourished
> after passing from an indie to a major since Nirvana >>
>
> I'm not exactly sure whether you're talking about artistically or financially
> flourishing here.

Well, upon reflection, I guess I meant both and neither at the same time.  (Huh?)

You are most definitely right on the money in everything you say about Boredoms,
Ween, Stereolab and Monster Magnet, artistically.  But in none of these cases has
this resulted in any kind of huge leap in mainstream awareness of these acts
(Stereolab a minor exception, perhaps), I'd argue.  And most likely the sales
figures reflect this to varying degrees.

Have any of these bands (again, Smashing Pumpkins and the currently-being-sued
Hole aside) sold so much more because they're on a major?  Debatable.  Have they
received more press attention because they are or were on a major?  Most likely,
but even that's arguable - for such bands, a feature in Magnet means more to fans
than a feature in People, anyway.  Have their records been stocked by (and
subsequently returned by) more stores across the USA?  Almost assuredly.

In a subsequent e-mail A. made some good points about what happened when Faith No
More and Jane's Addiction hit the majors - both improved demonstrably on an
artistic level, resulting in well-deserved and comparatively vast sales, and I'd
argue that it was largely because of major label recording schedules and
budgets.  In the former case, it also helped that Mike Patton happened to replace
Chuck Mosely, but even that might not have had the same impact if there hadn't
been major label funds to make the breakthrough video for "Epic" - nothing they
did after that single had nearly the same aboveground impact.  In the latter
case, major label recording bucks definitely helped Jane's Addiction get the
totality of their package across... no matter how cool the original Triple X
version of "Jane Says" might have been, nothing on that live debut album could
have propelled the band into the spotlight in the same way that the titanic (and
no doubt expensive) production of 'Nothing's Shocking' did.  And it's also clear
that none of the various side projects of the various Jane's members has been
able to recapture that initial rush... but I'll bet that 'Nothing's Shocking' and
'Ritual de lo Habitual' are still selling.

I guess those are two more examples to add to Jon's regarding indie bands whose
quality of output improved after switching to the majors.  On the other hand,
Husker Du improved not at all, and fell apart in a hurry...  Same with fIREHOSE.

Re: the Columbia/Earache merger, ill-advised on all parts: none of the Earache
bands did their best work for Columbia, though maybe Cathedral came close (and
for some reason Earache continues to claim 'Fear, Emptiness, Despair' as some
kind of high water mark for Napalm Death - NOT).  And Carcass, in mainstreaming
their approach for their one Columbia release, went a long, long way towards what
the true grindcore fans would (and DID) call "selling out" - mind you,
'Heartwork' is one of my very favorite albums of all, but it's not an especially
good representation of what Carcass was originally all about - and they STILL
managed to get screwed and then dropped.

I'm surmising that at some point there really is a fundamental difference between
alternative art and popular culture, and no matter how a major may try to co-opt
the indie cred of an alternative label or act, eventually there's nothing major
label money alone can do to break and sustain a radically different band.  (Most
of the abovementioned success stories where sales are concerned are bands based
in some significant way upon the received and embalmed rock tradition[s].)  You
can put the Boredoms in the bins of the most mainstream store in the heartland
and maybe even get a review planted in Entertainment Weekly, but can you maken
the *average* heartland buyer want to purchase their recordings?  And if the
answer is no, is it because the Boredoms have in some way failed?

Or another way to state it: does every alternative success stand a chance of
becoming a mainstream success?

It'll be interesting to see how the mainstream will embrace Dave Douglas's
clearly and understandably jazz-based sextet in a tribute to Mary Lou Williams,
given his indie cred, and even more interesting to see how they react to
subsequent recordings by Charms of the Night Sky and beyond.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:44:23 -0500
From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ljova's first bout with improvising.

    Hi!


As some of you may know, I recently "plugged in" my viola, in hope of
improvising more, and trying new things / things I never could do
@Juilliard.

Tonight, I recorded my first improv, in the privacy of my apartment.  11
minutes of viola fun, as only I would do it. :)

Find it here:
http://ljova.iuma.com/

I'd be really curious to hear what you think!

Thanks as always,

Ljova




- --------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://www.Ljova.com/

"There is no spoon."
        -("The Matrix")


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:17:44 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ornette (was Re: dave d & indie cool)

>written) autobiography Clive Davis bluntly says that Columbia (which he
>then ran) had people like Ornette Coleman on the label so that year's


One of those new history of Sony double-CD things has an excerpt from
"Skies of America" which of course is not available in the US currently (or
anytime within the past 15-20 years for that matter).

Publishers have done the same thing for decades though they also have the
advantage that a limited appeal writer like Cormac McCarthy or Patrick
O'Brian can sometimes break through to substantial and lasting sales.

LT
Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm

Funhouse
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/funhouse.htm

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:56:43 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: opinion on tzadik albums

Neilenet ask'd about:

JOHN ZORN: the book of heads - short guitar etudes originally written for eugene
chadbourne (according to the notes), performed by marc ribot. not something i
play alot, although i've really enjoyed seeing ribot play these. short bursts,
noisey with strings a-scrapin' and balloons a-poppin'. a little like "classic
guide to strategy" for guitar.

MARC RIBOT: shoe string symphonettes - maybe my fave ribot record, although his
trademark playing isn't as prevalent as on many of his other releases. very
varied, members of jazz passengers and others, shows him to be a more thoughtful
and exacting composer than what he usually does.

KRAMER: let me explain something to you about art - 2 or 3 long pieces, his
grandparents meditations on mortality set to music. really nicely done,
certainly not cheery, one of his best discs.

np: ha-za-ma s/t on capt. trip; good morning blizzard music.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:28:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo and Exile photo

there was some talk of a photo hidden under the tray in a zorn cd some
time back.  it was decided that it was a photo of marcel duchamp's "Etant
Donnes: 1. La Chute deau, 2. La Gaz declairage" from the Philadelphia
Museum of Art.  I can't recall what zorn cd it was, but here's a
description of the peice:

a mixed-media assemblage he began in 1946 and worked on
   until his death. It is a striking tableau featuring a naked female
   figure with her hand on an old gas lamp that leaves a surreal
   aura

and another one:

The viewer of the piece first steps onto a mat in front of the door, which
activates the lights, motor, etc., and then peers through two "peepholes"
to view the construction behind the door. The voyeur strains,
unsuccessfully, to see the "face" of the eerily realistic nude female form
which lies supine on a bed of twigs, illuminated gas lamp in hand. In the
distance, a sparkling waterfall shimmers, backlit by a flickering light,
part of a realistically rendered landscape painting on glass.

there's sort of a photo (an animated gif) at
http://www.freshwidow.com/etant-donnes2.html

apologies if someone already mentioned this...

whit


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:28:16 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bill Laswell's Jazzonia

>From: "mr jason p berry" <[e-mail]>
>>>>that it's complete bullshit, very much like the last dozen or so
>>>albums
>>>laswell has released. lame, uninspired, & poorly played.
>>
>>
>>If you feel that way, quit buying after three or four rather than buying a
>>"dozen or so


>come on, now. don't lecture me.
>______________________________________________________

Pollute my inbox with fetid, ill-founded and ill-mannered expletives about
an important downtown artist (this isn't the Billboard top 50 here), and you
merit a "lecture" (I reserve the same rights to free speech that you take
for yourself).  Wow me with well-considered, intelligent criticism (if
you're up to it), and you'll engender my silent praise.

>who says i bought them?

I also reserve the right to be as presumptuous as you when you claim to have
heard the last "dozen or so" productions.  1999 produced 26 Laswell-related
CDs.  How many have you "evaluated"?  (BTW Extreme plans to release a 50 CD
box this year of Merzbow--where's the howling about overproduction here?)

>& don't get me started on his solo bass wank on tzadik.

One of the finest Laswell releases of the past few years and in my top three
from last year.  Marvelous evocations of This Heat and Che Guevara along
with an extended soft dub interpretation.  Showcased well many of Laswell's
musical obsessions in his newer, melodic bass sensibility.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:58:59 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: if you're not ravish, delete

sorry to everyone else ... ravish momin, please email me. thanks.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:59:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ornette (was Re: dave d & indie cool)

Actually, 'Skies of America' is available as an import from Sony Japan.  We
have it here in Philly Tower, and I've always seen it in NYC Village Tower.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:54:54 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dave d & indie cool

- --- Steve Smith <[e-mail]> escribi≤:

> I guess those are two more examples to add to Jon's regarding indie
> bands whose
> quality of output improved after switching to the majors.  On the
> other hand,
> Husker Du improved not at all, and fell apart in a hurry...  Same
> with fIREHOSE.

I forgot to mention the Flaming Lips, their earlier stuff was good
but a bit raw, but since they signed to Warner and had that
HORRENDOUS hit single they┤ve come a long way, especially in that
Zaireeka 4-CD project.

> Re: the Columbia/Earache merger, ill-advised on all parts: none of
> the Earache
> bands did their best work for Columbia, though maybe Cathedral came
> close (and
> for some reason Earache continues to claim 'Fear, Emptiness,
> Despair' as some
> kind of high water mark for Napalm Death - NOT).  And Carcass, in
> mainstreaming
> their approach for their one Columbia release, went a long, long
> way towards what
> the true grindcore fans would (and DID) call "selling out" - mind
> you,
> 'Heartwork' is one of my very favorite albums of all, but it's not
> an especially
> good representation of what Carcass was originally all about - and
> they STILL
> managed to get screwed and then dropped.

Very true. What I find most amazing about Carcass though, was the
fact that Swansong got rejected by Columbia because of the
vocals...which were the only thing vaguely reminiscent of Carcass┤
past as a full-blown gore-core outfit...for those who don┤t know,
they sound like Thin Lizzy or something like that on that
recording...not that it┤s bad (I have it, it┤s good enough) but still
can┤t hold a candle to their early stuff, let alone Heartwork, an
album I find a bit overrated, since the album prior to that,
Necroticism, is a definite DM classic.
I agree with what you say about the whole thing...practically every
band who was part of that merge released watered-down versions of
their own selves, like Godflesh or Entombed or Napalm, stuff which
wasn┤t as intense as what they did previously...Fudge Tunnel went
totally alternative on that Creep Diets album, and surprisingly, I
enjoyed it quite a bit.

> Or another way to state it: does every alternative success stand a
> chance of
> becoming a mainstream success?
>
Me does not think so. Unless they become (either by pure choice or by
$) accesible enough to be liked by 12-year-old Amy from Minnessota,
chances of a band like the Boredoms becoming platinum seem null.

A
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:32:07 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Accused

Ahris Aundberg <[e-mail]> wrote:

Well, as Artur was mentioning how Zorn seems to be trying to get his
listeners into other groups, I was thinkign of a particular photot
out
of Sonora.  Not someone else's, but one of Zorn.  It's on the first
page
of "John Zorn's Theatre of Musical Optics" On his t-shirt, it says
"The
Accused" and below that it says "Martha Sucks Brains."  Is The
Accused
a
band?  Anyone know where I can get a similar shirt?

- ----------------------

The Accused were indeed a band, I think they were the first band
signed by my then-beloved, now-despised Earache Records. They played
hardcore and were OK, but nothing really special. I┤m guessing the
T-shirt slogan has something to do with a character they created,
Martha Splatterhead. Chances of getting an Accused shirt these days
are about as big as getting that Chusingura tape in your mail along
with a horse┤s head in a body bag.

A
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #842
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