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Zorn List Digest       Friday, January 21 2000       Volume 02 : Number 839



In this issue:
-
       Re: Ascension (was Re: Douglas's THOUGHTS ABOUT MAHFOUZ)
       Entering the Industry (was Re: Douglas's Charms)
       Re: Jean-Francois Pauvros + Keiji Haino
       dave d & indie cool
       Re:  dave d & indie cool
       Tim Berne - "Afternoon Tea"
       Re: Tim Berne - Quicksand
       Stevie Wishart?
       Re: dave d & indie cool
       lovin' some lovens (and wittwer)
       PROMO: John Zorn, editor of Arcana: Musicians on Music

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:13:28 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ascension (was Re: Douglas's THOUGHTS ABOUT MAHFOUZ)

In a message dated 1/20/00 11:21:48 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Is this still available? What label, etc.? >>

it's also on Jaworzyn's label, Shock. you also should keep your eyes peeled
for Descension-Live, March 1995 (Shock), which augments the duo's full-out
assault with Simon Fell on bass and Charles Wharf on alto & soprano
saxophones and bass clarinet.

I'm pretty sure that Broadcast was limited to 500 copies, and is long out of
print, although Other Music (www.othermusic.com), lists it in their online
database. I'm not sure of the status of the Descension release, or of Shock
in general. I know they haven't had any new releases for years. you could try
contacting the label directly at:

Shock
56 Beresford Road
Chingford, London
E4 6EF

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:52:33 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Entering the Industry (was Re: Douglas's Charms)

>From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
>Thanks for the timely reminder that I sometimes take this stuff (and
>myself) a
>wee bit too seriously.  Geez, given my defensiveness, one would be led to
>believe that perhaps I still have an unresolved personal issue or two
>regarding
>joining the majors...

Actually, to the contrary, Steve, your e.mail---minus a bit of the
contextual stuff---serves as manifesto for optimism, and not the optimism of
the idealist naif, but of the critic of cynical reason, or, better, the
critic of Cynical Resignation.  Cynicism and low-fi mentality are easy to
come by and easier to convert into _ressentiment_ (sp?) and hip Filthy Couch
rhetoric.  Your willingness to enter

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:49:20 +0100 (CET)
From: Oger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jean-Francois Pauvros + Keiji Haino

Yes, It is a CD on french label : Shambala.  Title is : Y .
(recorded by Jean-Marc Foussat)
Available by mail order with VERGE :
http://www.vergemusic.com

They made several concerts in France in may 1999.
In the CD, main extracts from a concert given in Paris (in a boat on the
Seine). There was a video film made too.

Jacques Oger

>Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:38:20 -0500
>From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Jean-Francois Pauvros + Keiji Haino
>
>There is a rumor that a cd has been released that features
>duos of the experimental guitarist Jean-Francois Pauvros
>with Keiji Haino.  The only information I have is that it
>has already been released in January 2000 and it is on a French label.
>For those Zorn-listers in Europe, anyone have additional
>information on the release?  Title?  Label?  Is the rumor
>true at all?  Is it the live performance from 19 May, 1999 which
>featured Haino + Jean-Francois Pauvros + Francois Causse at Musique
>Action 99 at Centre Culturel Andre Malraux, Vandoeuvre, Nancy, France?
>
>Thanks.
>
>David K.
>



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:35:38 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: dave d & indie cool

like others here, i've sorta straddled the fence between the hipness of diy
releases and the clout that comes with major label contracts. somehow it' just
more fun to get something on screwgun or hopscotch or aum, but the big deals
always seem to come with the promise of so much more being possible for the
artist.

better distribution, i think, is pretty much a given with the majors. but the
other perks are what have started to concern me.

it seems the bigs sign someone on who's genius has been proven in the minor
leagues thinking they're really going to break them. then, when the wynton
marsalis and christina aguillera fans don't flock to the avant garde, they drop
them summarily. henry threadgill, for example, does not have a recording
contract right now. while the 3 yrs or so on columbia definitely gave him some
exposure, i wonder if the critics who picked up on "carry the day" might now
think his day is past. after a 20+ year recording career, it seems a big label
can both make and break an artist fairly easily.

that may be overdramatic. musicians i talk to who've been in the biz for a
decade or more seem to know the score fairly well: sometimes the gravy train
comes along, but soon it ends and it's back to business as usual. the fact is
that nothing's going to break experimental music into the mainstream. the
occaisonal artist, yes, but not the whole shebang. what did columbia really
expect from threadgill or from david murray? i wouldn't have thought they'd do
much better than they did (which was pretty well, from all i can gather) during
their tenures. how well is atlantic expecting the art ensemble and ribot to do,
and what happens if their (likely unrealistic) expectations are not met?
threadgill had big plans with columbia, like recording his society situation
dance band for one. will we see that band recorded now? ever? if so, it will
probably be a label like black saint, and basically be promoted by word of
mouth. i hope i'll know about it if it ever happens.

in the big picture, it doesn't seem any bad can come from dave's contract with
rca. like steve said, more people will have access to his music, and that's
nothing but good. but when the album quota is up, i hope dave has pushed product
enough to meet the suits' needs.

(steve, you're not the suit i'm thinking of...)

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:55:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  dave d & indie cool

In a message dated 1/21/00 8:37:16 AM, you wrote:
>>like others here, i've sorta straddled the fence between the hipness of diy

releases

DIY problem #1 -- People don't know you exist.  #2 -- Unless the owe your
publicist a favor, they don't care.


>>and the clout that comes with major label contracts.

Your publicist can buy lunch, and journalists like to eat as much as the next
guy.


>>somehow it' just more fun to get something on screwgun or hopscotch or aum,

Becuase these guys can only afford to put out records that mean something
ineffable to them personally.  The adjective "compelling" means a lot with
these labels.

>>but the big deals always seem to come with the promise of so much more
being possible for the artist.

In Dave Douglas' case, do you think he'll tour if it means sleeping in a van?
Major label tour support and a publicist magazine people will listen to mean
a lot.  Like articles and reviews in magazines read by the people who aren't
already buying Dave Douglas records.


>>But the other perks are what have started to concern me.

I doubt that Dave Douglas is the kind of guy who would take the low road,
perk-wise.  I don't see him cutting with Harry Connick just because some suit
tells him to.


>>it seems the bigs sign someone on who's genius has been proven in the minor

leagues thinking they're really going to break them. then, when the wynton

marsalis and christina aguillera fans don't flock to the avant garde, they
drop

them summarily.

The problem is largely that the majors see a zillion people flock to the Knit
or wherever it may be every time DD or somebody like him plays a gig, and
they say , "Aha! It's an EMERGENT SCENE.  Let us get there first and exploit
this and make it THE HAPPENING THING TO BE INTO.  What they don't realize is
that some music simply isn;t designed to sell millions.  It's designed to be
what it is, and that's all.  This concept is inconceivable to anyplace with
an accounting department, who automatically assume that art fails unless its
number of consumers grows expoenetially.  BTW -- Wynton's mammoth output has
meant he's selling badly these days.  Does anyone else think this guy is the
Garth brooks of hard bop or what?

>>henry threadgill, for example, does not have a recording contract right
now.

And, trust me, the next one he's offered won't make him feel too good.


>>while the 3 yrs or so on columbia definitely gave him some exposure, i
wonder if the critics who picked up on "carry the day" might now think his
day is past.

It depends.  if he has a publicist with some clout (hard without major $), he
can have NEW STREET CRED.  But critics are very often into making sure they
appear to live ahead of the grading curve, so Threadgill's over.  bring on
this Douglas guy.  he's new.  Plus, he's white, and there's always a bit of
racism at play in the music press.

>>after a 20+ year recording career, it seems a big label can both make and
break an artist fairly easily.

Failure to sell zillions will stigmatize you as a high profile example of
somebody nobody cares about.  This, by the way, has nothing to do with
whether or not your music was worth a damn.


>>Sometimes the gravy train comes along, but soon it ends and it's back to
business as usual.

Can anyone say "Esquivel"?

>>The fact is that nothing's going to break experimental music into the
mainstream.

True.  if the mjaors wanna deal with it, they should do so as a matter of,
"Well, we make all this money, so we should at least put a little of it into
recording stuff  for the sake of just doing the right thing".  An idea that
ends at the accounting department.

>>What did columbia really expect [from david murray]?

That, since he had been making tons of records for years, he had established
enough of a following to support him if his work was consolidated and
well-distributed.  Reasonable on paper.  What they failed to see is that DM
has never sold enough records for any one label that he's been kept in one
place by a deal that meant he was taken seriously in the marketplace.

>>How well is atlantic expecting the art ensemble and ribot to do, and what
happens if their (likely unrealistic) expectations are not met?

They're probably expecting Ribot to do fairly well, given his rep as a real
live guitar hero.  But his first record for them was weak, didn't show well
in the marketplace, and the cred that comes with great press didn't come
because the reviews were, at best, mixed.  As for the AEC, years of great
press and somebody who knew how to spe&M.  However -- the end result was one
LP each.


>>threadgill had big plans with columbia, like recording his society situation

dance band for one. will we see that band recorded now? ever? if so, it will

probably be a label like black saint, and basically be promoted by word of

mouth.

You just outlined the likely scenario.


>>in the big picture, it doesn't seem any bad can come from dave's contract
with

rca. like steve said, more people will have access to his music, and that's

nothing but good. but when the album quota is up, i hope dave has pushed
product

enough to meet the suits' needs.

He may push that much product.  Dave Douglas is not only a real artist, but
enough of a hustler to know how to make himself visible, and to whom.  He's
one of the few guys savvy enough to see all the different buttons he'll need
to push if he wants to stay in business.


skip h

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:14:20 -0500
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tim Berne - "Afternoon Tea"

Night two of the Tim Berne episode was again very, very good.  The
setting was different (and better), Tonic.  The group was different
as well (not better, not worse).  Tim was joined by Tom Rainey on
drums, Tony Malaby on tenor sax, and Eric Friedlander on cello.  The
group was billed as "Tim's Afternoon Tea Band" but when he introduced
the band he said that he didn't have a name for it yet and just
introduced the players.  This group was a lot like Bloodcount, but
only in the instrumentation.  A cello instead of a bass and Tony
Malaby on tenor sax instead of Chris Speed (and no clarinet).  They
played two of Tim's new compositions.  The first was untitled as of
yet, tentatively called "No", or perhaps "Oh No".  It was about 20
minues long, like "Composure" of the previous night.  Again it was
characteristically Berneian in style, structure, and sound.  These
are all good things, from where I sit.  This composition gave a lot
of room to Tony for "soloing."  I put that in quotes because I think
Tim's music really blurs the lines between improvisation and
composition as well as blurring the lines between soloing and group
improvisation.  The second and final composition was "Sketches of
Pain," the same one as the previous night.  The cello and the tenor
sax were playing many of the same lines together as the keyboard
played the previous night.  Again, this was a great performance.  The
suite passed between the different parts separated by improvisation.
The suite clocked in at about 55 minutes.

Being the group's first performance, some of the changes were not as
smooth as they could have been.  Tim had to eye the other players to
let them know a new part was coming.  I noted that Tom Rainey did not
need these cues.  It seems he may be Tim's right hand man.  I was
impressed with Eric Friedlander.  I had never seen him play before
and I really enjoyed his playing, which I'm most familiar with from
listening to the Masada String Trio recordings.  His improvisations
had more of a Masada/Middle Eastern flavor to them as opposed to a
Berne flavor, but that's just nit-picking.  I enjoyed it nonetheless.

Yet again, there is another performance by Tim tonight at Tonic, with
Bobby Previte's band including Mark Helias and Elliot Sharp.

Dan Hewins

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:16:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tim Berne - Quicksand

Steve Smith (or maybe someone else, my apologies to all involved if I've
gotten this confused) said:

> I overheard Tim say, "it was a blast" and Craig say, "rehearsal can't
> prepare one for this..."

Spiraling off from Craig's quote, I have to pass on some priceless words
from saxophone monster Tony Malaby (interviewed I think in Jazziz) about
his first gig with one of Tim's bands:

"It felt like I'd been initiated into some kind of cult."


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:34:45 -0500
From: "Joslyn Layne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Stevie Wishart?

Hello,
 i wondering if anyone out there can recommend a particular stevie wishart
recording.. i recently got a cave12 compilation [distr. through recrec]
called 'haikus urbains' in which 29 artists have one minute tracks (remember
the ralph steadman coverd 'miniatures'?), and one minute remixes.

it's a cool roster of artists: frith, yoshihide, tom cora, luc & andy ex,
iva bittova, jon rose, leonid soybelman [kletka red], carlos zingao, haco,
frank pahl and more.

i'm intrigued by wishart's tracks, among others, and am not sure what
recording to pick up that will be along these more experimental lines, since
most of her CDs are medeival classical.

 thanks for your help,

    joslyn



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:07:10 -0500
From: James Hale <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: dave d & indie cool

[e-mail] wrote:

> DIY problem #1 -- People don't know you exist.  #2 -- Unless the owe your
> publicist a favor, they don't care.
> Your publicist can buy lunch, and journalists like to eat as much as the next
> guy.
> In Dave Douglas' case, do you think he'll tour if it means sleeping in a van?
> Major label tour support and a publicist magazine people will listen to mean
> a lot.  Like articles and reviews in magazines read by the people who aren't
> already buying Dave Douglas records.

> It depends.  if he has a publicist with some clout (hard without major $), he
> can have NEW STREET CRED.  But critics are very often into making sure they
> appear to live ahead of the grading curve, so Threadgill's over.  bring on
> this Douglas guy.  he's new.  Plus, he's white, and there's always a bit of
> racism at play in the music press.

Skip: In my experience variously as a jazz journalist, concert promoter
and radio announcer for more than 20 years, it's the PR people for indie
labels (not to mention hustling artists themselves) who get their music
heard, played and reviewed, not the majors.
I hear far more often from music-devoted publicists like Brian Coleman
at Braithwaite & Katz pushing discs like Sex Mob or Kitty Brazelton's
Dadadah than I ever do from someone working directly with a major label.
This is not a knock against Steve Smith ('cause he doesn't service
journalists here in Canada) but I have yet to hear from ANYONE at RCA
Victor concerning new signings Dave Douglas or D.D. Jackson, despite the
fact that I've written about both extensively over the years and live
and work in Jackson's hometown. So much for major label clout!
And, big or small, I've never had a publicist offer to buy me a coffee,
let alone lunch.
As to the Great White Hope comment... I don't think that warrants a
response.

James Hale

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:22:44 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: lovin' some lovens (and wittwer)

I'm listening to a tape with material from what must be CHOICE-CHASE by Paul
Lovens (perc), Paul Schutz (elec cello), and Stephan Wittwer (elec guitar),
live in Zurich, early Nineties.  It's pretty amazing, with more Wittwer here
than Lovens.  I've only heard Wittwer on GROOVES N' LOOPS (COWWS), and it
was not this amazing.  What else has he, Wittwer, done?  Is it hard to find?

- ----s
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:58:14 -0500
From: Steve Clay <[e-mail]>
Subject: PROMO: John Zorn, editor of Arcana: Musicians on Music

[special offer to zorn-list members at end this post]


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Edited by John Zorn


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Marc Ribot, David Rosenboom, John Schott, Elliott Sharp,
David Shea, Frances-Marie Uitti, Lois V Vierk, Z'EV, and
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Should start showing up in bookstores about Feb., 1, 00
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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #839
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