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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #798
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, November 26 1999 Volume 02 : Number 798
In this issue:
-
Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
Re: Kaoru Abe
Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!
RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
Re: sonic youth 20th c.
Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
Re: Kaoru Abe
Re: Shannon Jackson in KF catalogue
Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:43:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt9@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
- --- Christopher Lupold <chrann@flash.net> wrote:
> On the subject of DIW, PSF, and Abe Kaoru - just
> reissued on DIW is an incredible session with Abe
> Kaoru and Masayuki Takayanagi called Kaitaiteki
> Koukan (Deconstructive Sympathy)DIW-414 recorded in
> '70. I put this on the stereo, hit play, and I was
> just frozen in my seat for the duration.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of energy on that one,
but I wasn't as impressed with it as you seem to have
been. To me, it sounded more like two separate solos
played simultaneously than any sort of real duet.
Still worth checking out, especially considering it's
already out of print in Japan. Also, word is there's a
second Abe/Takayanagi duo planned for release soon. I
forget the details, though, so somebody else will have
to provide those.
> Usually I prefer his solo stuff, just the pure blare
> of his alto and sopranino improvisations.
I haven't heard him play sopranino. Is this a typo or
have I missed something?
> for Mikami Kan, I think the U.S.E. CD is a good
> place to start
Seconded. This is the best Mikami Kan disc I've heard.
-Tom Pratt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 17:18:39 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
At 01:16 PM 11/25/99 -0500, Nirav Soni wrote:
>I'd like to check out some of the Japanese improv/psych stuff on
PSF/DIW/etc..
>Only, I have very little idea where to start. I've heard the names Taj Mahal
>Travelers and Kaoru Abe, and I think that's the direction I'd like to head
into.
>Help. Please.
From my limited experience, Taj Mahal Travellers is very unlike the rest of
the PSF stable. Most of PSF is psychedelia influenced by the like of Blue
Cheer. The Wire #186 (with Scanner on the cover) has an excellent overview
(one of their primers, in fact) of this kind of music, and if this is what
you're seeking, this article would be an excellent place to start. The
Tokyo Flashback anthologies give overviews of much of the label.
Taj Mahal Travellers is an early electronic improv group similar to
Morphogenesis or Stockhausen's intuitive music, including one member (name
escapes me at the moment) who went on to work with Fluxus.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:42:36 -0600
From: "Christopher Lupold" <chrann@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Kaoru Abe
Re: Kaoru Abe
word is there's a
second Abe/Takayanagi duo planned for release soon. I
forget the details, though, so somebody else will have
to provide those.
I hadn't heard about another duo with Takayanagi - hopefully some details
will surface like you say. There's another disc on DIW that was issued as a
limited edition - a duo with Sabu Toyozumi called Akasia No Ame Ga Yamutoki
(As The Acacia Rain Stops), which is supposed to be re-released with the
boxed set of the 10 Solo Live at Gaya CDs, so I assume it's from the same
'77-'78 period. I also assume this is a different recording from the
similarly titled CD on Tokuma from '71, I'm really not sure.
> > Usually I prefer his solo stuff, just the pure blare
> > of his alto and sopranino improvisations.
>
> I haven't heard him play sopranino. Is this a typo or
> have I missed something?
I believe his sopranino playing can only be found on the Gaya discs - ? I
know Vol. 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10 each feature at least one track on
sopranino. Vol. 5, for instance, is all sopranino, then piano and harmonica.
And Vol. 10 and the Last Date CD also feature some improvisations on guitar.
There's a great quote on one of the Abe Kaoru websites:
http://www.yo.rim.or.jp/~t_okuno/ak.html
"When you listen to the Kaoru Abe's tone, you become aware a pure, simple
and not rational part existing in your heart.
And you will take back humanity yourself."
Which says it much better than I could...
- -CLupold
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:55:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt9@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
- --- "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com> wrote:
> Taj Mahal Travellers is an early electronic improv
> group similar to Morphogenesis or Stockhausen's
> intuitive music, including one member (name escapes
> me at the moment) who went on to work with Fluxus.
Takehisa Kosugi, though most of his work with fluxus
pre-dates the Taj Mahal Travellers by a decade or so.
Along with the TMT double-disc, the best recording of
Kosugi's music readily available on CD is 'Violin Solo
1980 NYC' on P-Vine. A bizarre combination of Albert
Ayler's primitive, exaggerated expression and Derek
Bailey-style phrasing, all played on violin. I think
it's pretty breathtaking stuff.
-Tom Pratt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:30:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Theo Klaase <river_of_dogs@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!
http://www.jazziz.com/John_Zorn.html
=====
- -That which is Theodorus... "The way to see by faith is to shut theeye of reason." www.freeyellow.com/members7/theodorus/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:05:29 +0100
From: "Stefan Verstraeten" <stefan.annik@planetinternet.be>
Subject: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
Hi,
This has been on my mind for some time, but i can't take this much longer,
so here is what I want to say:
Yesterday, I went to see the israelian movie (thank god it had subtitels)
KADOSH (this mean sacred).
The story itself is very simple: It is about two orthodox jewish sisters.
The oldest sister is married, but after ten years, there are still no
children. The rabbi convinces the husband to break his marriage based on the
words of the thora 'a man who dies without children rips a page out of the
thora'. But what the rabbi and the husband do not know is that the reason
why they can't have children, is beacaus the husband is infertil.........
but the rabbi does not care, the woman has to be expelled......
The other (younger) sister: a whole different story. She is in love with a
non orthodox jew, but who cares, the rabbi decided that she has to marry
someone else. And so it is done, she marries an orthodox jew who drives al
whole day around the town screaming that the jews have to start the holy war
(an eye for an eye), but does not know how to treat a woman (the wedding
night scene just says it all)..........
What do I want to say: I get really sick, just believe me, REALLY SICK, when
I read the comments of certain members here on the zornlist when they are
praising the orthodox jewish culture (LET THIS BE VERY CLEAR....... I AM NOT
AGAINST THE JEWISH CULTURE....... I AM JUST AGAINST THE HYPE AROUND ORTHODOX
JEWISH CULTURE).
You see, I live in Antwerp, where there is a big community of orthodox jews.
Naturally, I made some friends amongst them, based on a mutual respect for
each other. But the stories that some woman of my age (27) tell really make
me sick. You want some examples, no problem: premade weddings, the women who
have to do anything: cleaning, coocking, raising kids, never get touched by
their husbands when they are menstruating.......... for the reason that they
are not 'clean' during this period. But what really makes me sick, is that
some women have to work ALSO (besides the other jobs they have to do) so
that their husbands don't need to work, but can study the thora all day
long.
Yes, this is radical jewish culture. Don't believe me, no problem man, when
you come to Antwerp, I'll show you these sides of the jewish culture.......
ONCE AGAIN, I DO NOT WANT TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS JEWISH IS
EVIL............ NO WAY, JUST THINK OF KLEZMER MUSIC AND BEAUTIFUL JEWISH
LITERATURE... NOT TO FORGET THE JEWISH KITCHEN. But it just makes me sick
when people praise the radical jewish culture..... AND THAT INCLUDES JOHN
ZORN.
Yes, i know what is going to happen: there will be a lot of replies saying
that when john zorn talks about radical jewish culture, he talks about the
renaissance, of realising once again that jews must realise what a beautiful
culture they have.
But let me say two things:
- -when elliot sharp came to belgium, I asked his opinion concerning his
release on the radical jewish culture series. Well, he also explained what
the idea was behind this words, but shared my opinion on these words. He
also could not understand why 'orthodox' is suddenly a hype, when most of
the people don't know where it stands for. He personally used the words 'i
myself believe that it is a marketing trick from mister zorn'.
- -everybody knows here that zorn likes to picture orthodox jews on his albums
and even wears orthodox jewish attributes (my english is too bad to explain
it).... but let me tell you one thing. The counsel of the orthodox antwerp
jewish community stated very clearly that zorn is DEFINITELY NOT JEWISH
CULTURE. Funny to hear these words from a high respected (even worldwide)
community that zorn is a fan of. SO, WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE LATEST MASADA
ALBUM 'LIVE IN ANTWERP AT THE MIDDELHEIM PARK' DO NOT EVER THINK THAT IS
RECORDED AT THE JEWISH PART OF ANTWERP----- NO WAY IT IS RECORDED AT THE
PARK OF A CASTLE THAT PARTIALLY BELONGS TO A VERY BUT VERY CATHOLIC FAMILY.
Once again, i really dig john zorn, yes really. But i don't agree with his
radical jewish culture attitude, because i allways think about the orthodox
jewish women that i know and the stories they tell and the tears they show.
Zorn just does not realize how much pain he causes when he praises the
orthodox lifestyle.
Best wishes
Stefan Verstraeten
stefan.annik@planetinternet.be
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 02:17:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Whit Schonbein <whit@twinearth.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: sonic youth 20th c.
as far as i can tell, this is a relatively recent turn in the output of
sonic youth. i haven't heard this latest release on syr (waiting for
it in the post), but i grew up on 'sister', 'evol', and 'daydream nation',
and their more recent offerings (e.g., the first 3 syr eps) are a definite
departure (although one can hear continuity). one recent offering i've
enjoyed quite a bit is the thurston moore/evan parker/walter prati trio
disc on ? (sorry - don't have it handy)) which seems to fit into the
direction sy has been taking on their previous 3 eps. also, it fits
nicely into the niche established by the evan parker electro-acoustic
ensemble discs on ecm, and the duo disc with lawrence casserly (solar
wind)..and the disc on leo...sorry for the sketchy response, but im
really tired...happy thanksgiving! let me know if anyonw wants more
info...
whitney
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:02:53 +0100
From: "john rust" <johnrust@blinx.de>
Subject: Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
>What do I want to say: I get really sick, just believe me, REALLY SICK,
when
>I read the comments of certain members here on the zornlist when they are
>praising the orthodox jewish culture (LET THIS BE VERY CLEAR....... I AM
NOT
>AGAINST THE JEWISH CULTURE....... I AM JUST AGAINST THE HYPE AROUND
ORTHODOX
>JEWISH CULTURE).
Being an unorthodox Jew myself, I just can't see the point of this letter...
To me it sounds like - "I've seen this movie about Jews, it sucked, I know
some orthodox jews, some elements of their way of life and traditions suck
also", but I just can't make a connection between this and Radical Jewish
Culture. I mean, culture was alsways a bit separatedfrom thre reality.
Let's check it on the example of Leni Riefenstahl - are her films bad? No.
Does fascism suck? Yes. But there's no need to connect those things!.. Art,
aesthetics - but not the way of life...
>But the stories that some woman of my age (27) tell really make
>me sick.
I know there's a whole lot of stories that are different. There are always
two sides of the coin, and you never can have one without the other...
>Yes, this is radical jewish culture.
Why?.. I stil can't see the point... You can call it an Orthodox Way Of
Life, but why is it radical jewish culture?..
>Don't believe me, no problem man, when
>you come to Antwerp, I'll show you these sides of the jewish culture.......
Wow, you look like a specialist in the dark side of the jewish life of
Antwerpen, aren't you?..
>ONCE AGAIN, I DO NOT WANT TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS JEWISH IS
>EVIL............ NO WAY, JUST THINK OF KLEZMER MUSIC AND BEAUTIFUL JEWISH
>LITERATURE... NOT TO FORGET THE JEWISH KITCHEN.
Oh, Thank You!!!
Man, just think about the way this phrase is constructed, reread it once
more -
I DO NOT WANT TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING THAT IS JEWISH IS
EVIL -???????????....
You know, I had to deal a lot with the russian anti-semits when I lived
there for many years and I just hated their point that not ALL the jews are
bad, just some of them, and they always said smth like: yeah, I've got this
friend of mine, and you know, he's a Jew, but we still are comrades... this
kind of attitude always made me sick.
>SO, WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE LATEST MASADA
>ALBUM 'LIVE IN ANTWERP AT THE MIDDELHEIM PARK' DO NOT EVER THINK THAT IS
>RECORDED AT THE JEWISH PART OF ANTWERP----- NO WAY IT IS RECORDED c.
SO WHAT?..
to me it doesn't make any difference where it was recorded - maybe I would
sound strange, but for me its music that really matters. I just can't
imagine anyone who wouldn't enjoy the album just because it was recorded in
AT THE PARK OF A CASTLE THAT PARTIALLY BELONGS TO A VERY BUT VERY CATHOLIC
FAMILY...
>Zorn just does not realize how much pain he causes when he praises the
>orthodox lifestyle.
Sorry, but for me it sounds absurd and ridiculous.
What are other opinions?..
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:08:57 -0600
From: "Christopher Lupold" <chrann@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Kaoru Abe
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt9@yahoo.com>
To: Christopher Lupold <chrann@flash.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kaoru Abe
> Chris -- Tell me about these Live at Gaya CDs. Are
> these the ones that came out on DIW and have since
> gone out of print? Are they really re-issuing a
> boxset?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Tom Pratt
I don't know a release date, but two Kaoru Abe related websites list this:
SOLO LIVE AT GAYA COMPLETE BOX AK-001 Limited box set including Live at
GAYA Vol.1-10 and 'Akasia no ame ga yamutoki' - with the extra disc already
released in a limited edition - DIWS-2. The box could already be out, since
the first mention of it I saw was in May of this year.
I believe the original ten volumes of Kaoru Abe playing solo live at a
club owned by Emiko Gaya in Tokyo were all released in '90. I bought them in
'95 at Ameba Records on a trip to SF. I had wanted to hear more of his
playing ever since I listened to him in a group setting on two other DIW
discs, Meditation Among Us by Milford Graves(DIW-357) and Duo & Trio
Improvisation(DIW-358) by Derek Bailey. I've heard other people talk about
the Gaya discs as being out of print and hard to find - when I recommended
them to a friend who worked at Borders Music two years ago, he said that he
could only find Vol. 1 and Vol. 4 in print
Live at GAYA Vol.1 DIW-371 one sopranino piece("Lonely Woman"/"Blowin' In
The Wind"[!]), three alto pieces
Live at GAYA Vol.2 DIW-372 two sopranino("Left Alone/"Lonely Woman"/"Chim
Chim Cheree"), one piano, one alto
Live at GAYA Vol.3 DIW-373 three alto
Live at GAYA Vol.4 DIW-374 two alto, one sopranino("Chim Chim Cheree")
Live at GAYA Vol.5 DIW-375 one sopranino, one piano/harmonica
Live at GAYA Vol.6 DIW-376 one alto, one harmonica, one sopranino
Live at GAYA Vol.7 DIW-377 one alto, one sopranino
Live at GAYA Vol.8 DIW-378 one long alto
Live at GAYA Vol.9 DIW-379 one alto("Lover, Come Back To Me")
Live at GAYA Vol.10 DIW-380 two sopranino, one guitar
Each disc centers on the sets from a different evenings performance,
usually presented in the order they were played, but not always including
each set(Vol. 1 starts with the 2nd set on 9-30-77, for example). All the
discs are recorded in a very no-frills but intimate setting - some tracks
are followed by maybe three people clapping, some by silence or clearing of
throats.
My favorites are the alto and sopranino pieces - to me, they are a
listening experience akin to Coltrane's "Interstellar Space" in terms of
sheer blowing power. I'm also a sucker for any dissection of "Lonely Woman",
which is one of the most beautiful melodies ever.
I hope that's some help as a reference point for this chunk of Kaoru Abe's
discography. Hopefully these discs will be available again soon, at least
for a time.
- -CLupold
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:59:38 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <S.Wilkie@swansea.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Shannon Jackson in KF catalogue
could Lang Thompson let us know the titles of the RSJ albums
available?
Sean Wilkie
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:25:46 +0100
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
john rust wrote:
>>What are other opinions?..
very touchy subject, i'm sure most of you would agree...
well, like stefan verstraeten said in his mail
>>(my english is too bad to explain
>>it)
i think stefan mixed up two things "orthodox jewish lifestyle" and
"radical jewish culture"; the latter a term i first heard used by john
zorn.
>>Zorn just does not realize how much pain he causes when he praises the
>>orthodox lifestyle.
does he really praise the orthodox jewish lifestyle? i've never seen or
heard him do this!!!
>>Yes, i know what is going to happen: there will be a lot of replies saying
>>that when john zorn talks about radical jewish culture, he talks about the
>>renaissance, of realising once again that jews must realise what a beautiful
>>culture they have.
i never got the impression that that was his main motivation.
to me "radical jewish culture" does not have anything to do with
"orthodox jewish lifestyle". zorn said in a recent interview that after
his father had died he became aware of and got back into his jewish
roots. "radical jewish culture" was/is, i feel, only a term, one that
even has a bit of a shock value. and maybe yes, like you let us know
elliott sharp said to you, is even useful for marketing purposes... i
think zorn only wanted to make the jewish people around him aware of
their culture, get them back into it, and let people know he is jewish
and that it has become important to him! nothing more, nothing less.
>>-when elliot sharp came to belgium,
>> He personally used the words 'i
>>myself believe that it is a marketing trick from mister zorn'.
well, he still doesn't mind the marketing, does he? if he felt it was a
bad thing he could have simply refused to have stuff put out on tzadik.
i'm sure he felt okay when he got his pay cheque!?
>>Yes, this is radical jewish culture.
how you described the - according to our upbringing - bad and sad
stories of jewish people you know: i guess you can say they were caused
by "RADICAL orthodox jewish lifestyle" - but what does it have to do
with "radical jewish culture"??? (btw: did you know there are quite a
few different orthodox lifestyles?)
>>. but let me tell you one thing. The counsel of the orthodox antwerp
>>jewish community stated very clearly that zorn is DEFINITELY NOT JEWISH
>>CULTURE. Funny to hear these words from a high respected (even worldwide)
>>community that zorn is a fan of.
who gives a fuck??? do i care about what someone like that says?
>>SO, WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THE LATEST MASADA
>>ALBUM 'LIVE IN ANTWERP AT THE MIDDELHEIM PARK' DO NOT EVER THINK THAT IS
>>RECORDED AT THE JEWISH PART OF ANTWERP----- NO WAY IT IS RECORDED AT THE
>>PARK OF A CASTLE THAT PARTIALLY BELONGS TO A VERY BUT VERY CATHOLIC FAMILY.
at least this proves that john zorn isn't narrow-minded. he didn't give
a fuck about playing in a place that is owned by some catholic guy.
more opinions please!
patRice
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #798
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