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Zorn List Digest       Thursday, October 7 1999       Volume 02 : Number 769



In this issue:
-
       free the flutes
       Avant
       he puts the 'z' in 'zealous'
       Re: free the flutes
       Re: he puts the 'z' in 'zealous'
       flouting the flautists
       Re: free the flutes
       Re: more on the times
       Re: more on the times
       RE: Free Flutists?
       Re: Re: The ubiquitous Greg Cohen
       mp3 - ruins + massacre / +/-
       formanek interview
       180 and the Letter G
       Berne, Hemphill Realaudio at screwgun site
       RE: more on the times
       More media moans
       more month'o'mazzacane

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 10:44:37 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: free the flutes

been thinking on this, and not coming up with much. but james newton, who isn't
way outside but has done some nice stuff with the likes of murray and
threadgill, may be exclusively a flutist. he and threadgill also did a nice
flute quartet record on black saint a few years back, called flute force four.

and while we're on the subject (and because i'm one of those etymology geeks), i
just checked four dictionaries, including webster's third new international
unabridged and the norton concise encyclopedia of music, and none contain the
word "floutist." to flout, whoever, is to treat with contempt or disregard. but
far as i can tell, they're flutists. (not that you used either word, brian. just
something that bugs me).

kg

- - --- [e-mail] wrote:
>      Possibly a silly question, but, aside from the
> arguable example of
>      Robert Dick, are there any free players around
> who stick exclusively
>      to the flute? Not someone like Braxton who
> sometimes plays flute and
>      sometimes plays free, but...the Derek Bailey of
> the flute.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:06:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Avant

I have a friend who has a kinda big CD store, and he
has 2 of these phone-book like catalogs. Anyway, one
(I think it┤s from AMJ company or something like that)
is American and it lists practically every Avant
title, but the thing is these are listed as being
about $25 each. But that┤s something.
A

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 10:53:05 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: he puts the 'z' in 'zealous'

Zorn overzealous? Never!!! [little winky emoticon thing]

> Zorn's probably on to something good but he may be over-zealous about it a lot
> of the time.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:54:15 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: free the flutes

In a message dated 10/7/99 10:51:29 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< and while we're on the subject (and because i'm one of those etymology
geeks), i

just checked four dictionaries, including webster's third new international

unabridged and the norton concise encyclopedia of music, and none contain the

word "floutist." to flout, whoever, is to treat with contempt or disregard.
but

far as i can tell, they're flutists. (not that you used either word, brian.
just

something that bugs me). >>

you didn't find it because the word is flautist. try looking that one up.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

NP: the lulling background babble of CNBC

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:03:27 -0400
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: he puts the 'z' in 'zealous'

> Zorn's probably on to something good but he may be over-zealous


Yet another Jewish reference apparently.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 99 11:26:19 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: flouting the flautists

despite my valiant efforts, it has privately been pointed out to me that the
proper spelling of that stupid word is 'flautist,' which is in the dictionary.
so now i no longer have an argument for not using the word, i just think it's
silly and pompous to. [little emoticon frowny face or something]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:26:51 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: free the flutes

On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 10:44:37AM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:

> and while we're on the subject (and because i'm one of those etymology geeks), i
> just checked four dictionaries, including webster's third new international
> unabridged and the norton concise encyclopedia of music, and none contain the
> word "floutist." to flout, whoever, is to treat with contempt or disregard. but
> far as i can tell, they're flutists. (not that you used either word, brian. just
> something that bugs me).

The word you want is "flautist". The spelling "floutist" is used only
by spelling floutists :-).

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:44:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: benjamin elliot axelrad <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more on the times

Has anyone read anything in the Jewish media about Zorn?  I remember
reading an article on Jewish musicians and the rebirth of Klezmer in a
free publication from United Jewish Appeal where the author critiqued
Zorn's music (specifically Masada) for only being superficially Jewish.
The author felt that Zorn was appropriating the symbols of Judaism
(wearing a tallis on stage, performing in a temple) but somehow not
capturing any of the "depth."  I'm not sure what any of this means.

(Does anyone know why Safam is so popular?)

Ben

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, philz wrote:

> But, can Zorn or anyone be that surprised that the media is picking
> up on the Jewish angle?  Isn't that somewhat the idea, to draw
> attention to the Jewish plight?  I get the impression that some are
> upset that the media actually noticed some part of what Zorn is up
> to.  So what if Zorn is identified with Jewish culture? - He's been
> responsible for the Radical Jewish Culture series and has promoted
> Jewish artists where possible.


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:21:31 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more on the times

On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:44:48AM -0500, benjamin elliot axelrad wrote:
> Has anyone read anything in the Jewish media about Zorn?  I remember
> reading an article on Jewish musicians and the rebirth of Klezmer in a
> free publication from United Jewish Appeal where the author critiqued
> Zorn's music (specifically Masada) for only being superficially Jewish.
> The author felt that Zorn was appropriating the symbols of Judaism
> (wearing a tallis on stage, performing in a temple) but somehow not
> capturing any of the "depth."  I'm not sure what any of this means.

THere was a favorable front-page article on him in the Forward a while
back, as well as, IIRC, in Response. What I've seen in the Jewish press
has been generally approving.

> (Does anyone know why Safam is so popular?)

*gak* Well, at least no one seems to mention Poogy anymore...

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:50:06 -0300
From: Linares Hugo <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Free Flutists?

Andreas Dietz  wrote:

> I think before his premature death Thomas Chapin was the most amazing
> flute player though he didn=B4t use it as his major instrument.=20
>=20
>=20
> Seconded. He also played amazing tango-tinged music in Pablo Aslan's
> Avantango.
>=20
    Cheers.

    Hugo =20

> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 14:32:26 -0400
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: The ubiquitous Greg Cohen

DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]> wrote:
> He IS everywhere - check out Annie Ross' character's band in the
nightclub in Short Cuts.  Greg plays a bass player, and his old buddy
Tom Waits plays the drunk slumped over the bar.

Sean Wilkie

- -
And as I remember it, Bobby Previte is the drummer...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(checking in from work for no particular reason...)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:30:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: mp3 - ruins + massacre / +/-

hello folks.  updated my sporadically updated webpage to include a
massacre tune from may of 99 and two ruins tunes from july of 99.  if
anyone is interested in trading live material, email me.

http://artsci.wustl.edu/~wwschonb/music.html

also, for any st. louis, missouri zorn-listers: i'm under the
impression that +/- (gene coleman +
plochswel (excuse my spelling!)) performs tonight (thursday), 8:00pm,
forum for contemporary art (right next door to jazz at the bistro).  not
sure what the cover is.  sponsored by the new music circle (i'm not
affiliated).  see you there!

whit

- ------------------------------------------
William W. Schonbein
Philosophy-Neuroscience-Psychology Program
Department of Philosophy
Washington University
St. Louis, MO, USA

[e-mail]
- ------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:13:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: formanek interview

this interview with michael formanek was posted to rec.music.bluenote.
i'm posting the first 1/2 or so (since it's long) here because it is
probably of interest to some of you.  if there is demand, i'll post the
remainder.  (also, i'm on digest, so apologies if someone has already
posted this...)

cheers, whit

From: "Blue Lake" <[e-mail]>
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Michael Formanek Interview (pre-Edge Fest)
Date: 7 Oct 1999 05:07:02 GMT
Organization: Blue Lake Public Radio
Lines: 200


Michael Formanek, bassist/bandleader/composer at home in Milford,
Pennsylvania.

Interview with Lazaro Vega, Blue Lake Public Radio
September 27, 1999

Lazaro Vega: Though you=92ve made 13 albums with saxophonist Tim Berne, the=
re=92
s only one duo album, right? (=93Ornery People,=94 Screwgun). I guess the
obvious observation is that many of the group settings you=92ve worked in w=
ere
compositionally oriented with many sections for improvisation, but the
structures were very definite. I=92m thinking of the records I have from En=
ja,
=93Wide Open Spaces,=94 =93Low Profile=94 and =93Nature of the Beast.=94 It=
 would seem
like with the duo you can be more responsive and a lot freer.

Michael Formanek: Yes, usually that=92s the case. It=92s taken on a few
different incarnations. We=92ve been doing it on and off since 1991 or 1992=
=2E
We=92ve done different things. Sometimes where we=92ve just played a lot of
compositions sort of individually, and sometimes were we play less
compositions and string them together with more improv, and sometimes where
we just totally improvise, or just use some of the material from the pieces
as kind of reference material. That=92s what we=92ve more recently been doi=
ng.
But because we just play so much together in so many different situations,
we have so much common language that it=92s kind of interesting sometimes j=
ust
to go and see if we land on one of the tunes or not, and if we do we don=92=
t
necessarily stay there.

You know: yeah, so it=92s pretty wide open at this point.

Vega: I bet there=92s a lot of sort of instantaneous communication having
played together as long as you have.

Formanek: (Laughing) yeah, it=92s pretty amazing what things develop!

Vega: Would you rather have Berne playing the baritone saxophone or alto?

Formanek: I like them both. I started playing with Tim around the time he
started playing the bari. So being in my band, the Wide Open Spaces band
that we did for a couple of years back in the early =9190=92s, that was one=
 of
the first times he played it doing someone else=92s music and being forced =
to
have to really deal on it. So I just enjoy his bari playing. I just like
doing that with him.

There are times we talk about just doing that; just bari and bass duos, but
we haven=92t quite gotten to that.

But I like both. I love the alto. It=92s a great color, and he=92s so free =
on
that instrument, you know, he=92s been playing it so long. And it=92s nice =
to
have a little bigger range read between the two instruments.

Vega: In terms of bass playing, it=92s sometimes an observation that bass
players maybe in your generation have tried to find a common ground between
the cello-like bass playing of Dave Holland and the more swing oriented
style of Ray Brown or Jimmy Blanton, even. I=92m wondering as a bassist whe=
re
do you find yourself coming out of the jazz tradition in terms of the sound
production?

Formanek: Well, I mean it=92s kind of little bits of all of it. And sort of
disregarding all of it at the same time.

I really came up listening to everybody: I loved Ray Brown, I loved Paul
Chambers, and I loved (Charles) Mingus. Probably overall Mingus might have
made the biggest impression in terms of the expressiveness and sound, the
combination, coming out of the bass. That=92s something I was really attrac=
ted
to, and Oscar Pettiford=92s sound, I loved Scotty LaFaro=92s sound.

In pretty much different periods I was kind of into everybody. I had period=
s
where I was heavily into Holland. I guess a little bit of everybody at
various times.

So my thing, it=92s maybe a little darker, a little bassier, maybe, than so=
me
of the more cello-like guys. Probably a little more percussive than some of
the other people. It=92s sort of my own mish-mosh. I don=92t know how to
describe it.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:57:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "∩ Sá .Ñ─       °" <[e-mail]>
Subject: 180 and the Letter G

I have it on good word that the Weatherman's house is
for sale.  For those of you familiar with
Negativland's output, this is the famous house where
Weatherman grew up, the directions to which form the
last track on the album, Big 10-8 Place.

A classic piece of underground lore and a mecca for
the many (well, maybe you wouldn't call us "many")
Negativland fans.

In any case, thought some of you would like to know.

Peter

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 00:23:02 +0200
From: Tal Goldman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Berne, Hemphill Realaudio at screwgun site

People might be interested to know that Screwgun has put up some
unreleased Berne,
Berne/Rainey, Django Bates, and Hemphill files at
http://www.screwgunrecords.com/sound.htm

Got the Hemphill one going now.  Nice stuff....


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:58:38 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: more on the times

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of philz
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 4:59 AM

steve smith highlighted some excerpts:

> >"The prime architects of the new sensibility are Mr. Zorn, *who now
> >considers himself a Jewish composer*..."

> >"Mr. Zorn is *committed to the idea of Jews as an eternal pariah
> class*..."

And philz wrote:

> Well, better leave me in the dark, I still find the article, even
> with the comments illustrated above, generally positive and
> inoffensive.

Well, Steve left out Shatz's conclusion, where he calls Zorn's music
"radical kitsch." To which I say, "Huh?"

Shatz also questions Zorn's apparent positioning of himself as an oppressed
outsider, noting that he is the consummate downtown insider in a city that
has been the capital of postwar Jewish culture, etc. Granted, putting Zorn
in that cultural context is indeed fair, but it makes him sound like a
poseur somehow. Who is anyone to question Zorn's "authenticity?" (Funny how
David Byrne criticizes the idea of the authentic in the accompanying
article.)

Ultimately, it's not dissimilar from what Cook and Morton rather bluntly
raised in The Penguin Guide (I'm quoting here from the third edition): "Even
a project like [Masada]... raises questions about opportunism. Why was his
interest in Hebrew culture not made known sooner? A desire for privacy? A
slow awakening to his cultural roots? Or a more cynical reason?"

(Cook and Morton do add in the next paragraph: "There seems no reason to
take the third course in approaching these records.")

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:58:18 +0100
From: [e-mail]
Subject: More media moans

> >whatever ethnic musics they want, the piece seems to say, but Jews have a
> >special obligation to represent their own culture in a certain way --
> >even if that way is never stated
>
> Kurt, pardon if I took your comments out of context, or missed something,

Kurt can tell you for certain, but my reading of this was that the
ARTICLE was claiming that Jews have a special obligation etc etc,
and that Kurt, like you, begs to differ (not unreasonably).

I know I caused a flame war last time I grouched about this, but it
does seem to me that the national press in the UK is completely
and wilfully clueless about contemporary music in a way that it
isn't about the plastic arts. It may not be cutting edge, but
broadsheet arts coverage seems reasonably informed about
paintings and sculptures but totally uncomprehending when it
comes to music.

I mention this because (a) it pisses me off, and (b) I can't see why
it should be so. Surely some small London exhibition of conceptual
sculptures is no more accessible to newspaper readers than a new
CD by Evan Parker (say). I know this is slightly off-topic but I'd be
interested in anyone's thoughts on this, esp in relation to Zorn's
non-participation policy, which strikes me as being rather defeatist.

Rich

- -------------------------------------------------
Latest on (musings): reviews (with MP3s) of
new CD releases featuring, among others, John Stevens,
Chris Speed, Dave Douglas, Wayne Horovitz, Bobby Previte,
Francois Houle, Hans Tammen, Keith Tippett, Jerry
Granelli, Thurston Moore...
http://come.to/musings.com
+++STOP PRESS+++
Also Run Ra, John Tchicai, Braxton, Ganelin Trio...

- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:30:24 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: more month'o'mazzacane

two more Mazzacane concerts to report on:

last night Loren played with Andrew Burnes and John Allen, both guitarists.
they built their last piece into a nicely controlled frenzy. then Loren
played for a bit solo, and in a slightly different style from anything I've
seen him do before, very quiet and more moved from the blues than usual.

then the guest star of the evening, Rafael Toral, came on and began a duet
with Loren. Toral, at least on the evidence of this evening, hasn't quite
made the transition to presenting his music in a live context. as the duet
progressed, Toral was so wrapped up in his own thing that he wasn't really
paying much attention to what Loren was doing. Loren's solution to this,
about halfway through the piece, was to cut his own volume all the way, so
that only Toral could be heard. the look on Toral's face when he realized
that this had occurred was pretty priceless. but after that, the duo worked
much better, with much more interplay (Loren told me afterwards that he got
that idea from a Godard movie, which I found interesting). over the rest of
the duo segment, Loren cut his own volume a few more times, and that helped
to keep the piece somewhat on track. then Toral played solo for a stretch,
which was pretty good but a bit uneven.

tonight, the evening began with Loren, again accompanied by Andrew Burnes.
Loren broke another string (at least his fourth in the three shows I've seen
so far. I'm not sure what the deal with that is.), which killed the momentum
for a while, but the duo ended up sounding pretty good. that went on for 45
minutes or so, during which way too many of the young'uns there to see their
idol, Chan Marshall (who records for Matador under the name Cat Power), felt
free to yammer over some of Loren's most poignant playing.

then, after a break, Marshall joined Loren on stage. it was all improvised,
with her strumming simple melodies and periodically singing, and Loren
accompanying her, and it was breathtakingly gorgeous for virtually the entire
45 minutes. most of the songs she sang were her own, I assume, but early on,
she sang six or seven couplets from Satisfaction by the Rolling Stones. what
I found especially funny about this, besides the fact that it was presented
as a post-modern blues dirge, was that when I spoke to Loren afterwards, he
wasn't even aware that she had done that, since that's not what he was
focusing on. definitely the highlight of Lorenfest thus far. if Marshall has
any sense, she'll record her next record with Loren.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

NP: Charlemagne Palestine-Schlingen-Blangen (New World)

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #769
*******************************


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