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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, October 5 1999       Volume 02 : Number 764



In this issue:
-
       Re: is the real Parliament touring
       jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)
       Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)
       byron / frisell
       Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)
       burnt scottish weeny
       oh
       more ny times (no jewel)
       Re: more ny times (no jewel)
       No Subject
       free-jazz klezmer
       Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)
       Re: more ny times (no jewel)
       again with the NY times article.
       [none]
       Re: more ny times (no jewel)
       Re: more ny times (no jewel)
       Re: Klezmer revival
       Re: more ny times (no jewel)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 23:10:44 -0400
From: "Zachary J. Griffin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: is the real Parliament touring

From what I read in an article in my local paper (In Connecticut. The same
show is coming here this tuesday), Bootsy Collins and Bernie Worrell appear
at some, but not all, shows.  George Clinton decided to change the "P-Funk
All Stars" to "George Clinton and The Parliment-Funkadelics" to avoid
confusion with another touring group past P-Funk members calling itself "The
Original P".  I do not know who specifically are the members of either
group.  But I do know that George is not involved with "Original P".

Zach Griffin

King Wilson wrote:

> George Clinton is playing in chicago in october.  It's billed as a
> Parliament/Funkadelic show, rather than the Funkadelic Allstars, which is
> what Clinton's been touring with the last few years......
>   Does anyone know if this is the Bootsy/Bernie version of the band?  I
> assume it is.........
>
> -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 10:36:17 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)

Speaking of seeing plenty of Greg C around (as Droyko did), I saw him on a VH1
storytellers (and I swear I only watched about 90 seconds) with Jewel. I guess
you can't fault a guy for needing to make a living -- or at least, I'd like to
think that's all it is). Also looked like Mark Dresser on cello (?), but I could
be wrong.

My vitriol for Jewel is matched only by the NYTimes piece on Arto and JZ that
ran yesterday (I'm guessing that's the one Nvinokur meant). I guess they did
Arto OK, and you can only expect them to be dismissive of his guitar playing,
which I really like (at one point they listed him as a singer/composer in a list
of musicians, not acknowledging that he's been performing and recording on his
instrument in a variety of settings for well over a decade). But JZ went from
playing beautiful music (I forget the wording) to no more than "radical kitsch"
simply because the author thinks he's wrong about the Jewish diaspora. I can see
why JZ won't mess with the press (and I'm one of 'em).

The article by David Byrne that ran alongside it, however, was quite good. I
like some of his music, although I got over his naive intellectual schtick
shortly after high school. But I'm glad to see someone in the mainstream press
finally point out the implied xenophobia of the term "world music." (And I
smiled when he confessed to liking Ricky Martin). "World music" means
nonwestern, nonwhite and from somewhere foreign which we (American mass
consumers, I mean), with no knowledge of geograpy, can only imagine is populated
by people who either eat whales or where plants over their privates. Besides
Bill Laswell, especially (but not exclusively) in his work with Threadgill, I
can't think of anyone whose work I'd really describe as world musice. Oh, except
Ornette's Tone Dialing (brilliant disc).

So did anyone catch Zorn/Haas/Fly? Who's Fly? I know of a female EVillage artist
that goes by that name.

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:39:06 -0700
From: Katje <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)

[e-mail] wrote:

> My vitriol for Jewel is matched only by the NYTimes piece on Arto and JZ that
> ran yesterday

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/artleisure/music-ethnic.html

> The article by David Byrne that ran alongside it, however, was quite good.

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/artleisure/music-world.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:59:08 -0400
From: "Bob Kowalski" <[e-mail]>
Subject: byron / frisell

Would just like to put in my two cents (they are fantastic!!!) on two new =
releases, both featuring Frisell's guitar in a big way.  Actually, Byron =
puts in some great appearances on the Costello/Bacarach (sp?) songs and =
his own Romance with the Unknown is wonderful.  I'd say there is a big =
difference between "lite" and "subtle" for this music - its a far cry from =
finding its way to elevators (who knows though - they play new wave in my =
local supermarket.)  Frisell's album is stellar - like a musical Ken =
Burns, channeling (maybe reworking is a better phrase?) Americana through =
his recordings.

happy listening=20

Bob


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 11:33:36 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)

Kurt wrote:

>But JZ went from
>playing beautiful music (I forget the wording) to no more than "radical kitsch"
>simply because the author thinks he's wrong about the Jewish diaspora. I can
>see why JZ won't mess with the press (and I'm one of 'em).

I can hardly wait for the inevitable venomous response from JZ next weekend.
I've encountered the "kitsch" response to Zorn's Masada-type music from a number
of Jewish friends whose experience with klezmer was "that awful music from bar
mitzvah parties" in their youth. Naturally, one might say, that was a music to
be rebelled against at the time and seems to remain, psychologically, as a bug
bear. Perhaps that was one of the writer's problems. Of course, some critics
also can't deal with "pretty" music, ie, a beautiful, romantic melody _must_ be
"kitsch", right?

Those of us "fortunate" enough not to have any real knowledge of klezmer until
adulthood might be better able to approach it, or variations thereof, with
untainted ears.

Brian Olewnick

NB: Willem Breuker Kollektief at Tonic tomorrow night.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 15:12:07 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: burnt scottish weeny

Hello -- I copied the White Noise url from these pages a while ago, but maybe
got it wrong. Anyway, I wasn't able to access it today and would like to have a
look. Let me know if I got it right (http://www.burntweeny.freeserve.co.uk) or
if it's still up. You can respond privately at [e-mail] if you
like. Thanks.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 12:49:07 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: oh

and, of course, i meant 'foolhardy.' don't you love when you see those stupid
mistakes just as you're clicking 'send'?

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 99 12:47:29 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: more ny times (no jewel)

another foolhearty assertion in the sunday piece was that nobody in the downtown
scene had delved into klez before jz except don byron (who of course they have
to point out is black and not jewish). now i wasn't in nyc at the time, but i
believe zorn was not one of the first on this bandwagon. they even mention
krakauer in the article, but don't give him props as one of the first
revivalist/interpreters. and by the time masada's first recorded release, on the
knit's jewish festival 93(?) comp came out, there were enough other bands to
fill the disc. and i really don't know how bar khoba can be seen as kitsch and
byron's music of mickey katz not.

but then many's the time i've resisted the urge to lambaste ill-informed writers
here, especially since i'm struggling at a small paper a few miles from new
york, and wouldn't exactly kick the times out of bed for eating crackers. but,
y'know, as a news writer, i'm supposed to get things right or at least say where
the info came from. these bigtime music writers can belly up to the bar when
they think they've spotted a trend (usually a half decade or so into it), start
guessing about who started it and what their motivations were, and then create
what will become the popular conception in the morning paper. aargh.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 16:37:10 -0400
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: more ny times (no jewel)

     >another foolhearty assertion in the sunday piece was that nobody in
     >the downtown scene had delved into klez before jz except don byron

     I recall a sunny afternoon in 1982 when I stumbled on a free outdoor
     performance at 59th and 5th of the band Klezmorim. I was knocked out
     by the stuff, ran out and purchased their 'Metropolis' album. Now, I'm
     not sure if the members qualified as 'downtown' (and don't know if any
     are still very active on the scene) but they pretty much looked the
     part and, in any case, a new form of klezmer was certainly in the air
     by that time. Andy Statman's another obvious example; don't know off
     the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure he's been melding klezmer with
     Coltrane since at least the early 80's. Ivo Papasov, also.

     Brian Olewnick





- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:39:04 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: No Subject

just a note:

Zorn was hardly the first to delve into klezmer during its revival;  any
interested parties should check out Henry Sapoznik's band, Kapelye, who was
going at it during the early- mid 70's.  Also, Hankus Netsky's band The
Klezmer Conservatory Band, should be credited for bringing the style back
into the public eye....  Flying Bulgar Band, Andy Statman, Sid Beckerman,
Walter Zev Feldman, etc., etc., etc...... These guys are amazing! I think
Zorn listeners should recognize exactly where Zorn gets his ideas and
influences... although I love Bar Kokhba and the Circle Maker as much as the
next gal/guy....

One more thing for klezmer enthusiasts:
The Klezmatics, who are up north currently, will be giving a concert at the
Quick Center for the Arts in Fairfield, CT.

- -karen

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: free-jazz klezmer

When did Burton Greene begin his Klezmer-influenced
projects?

     -Tom Pratt


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 22:51:46 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: jewel/ny times (trust me, there's content)

[e-mail] wrote:

> I can hardly wait for the inevitable venomous response from JZ next weekend.

I don't think you'll see any.  On Sunday morning and all day today I heard a handful
of secondhand reports of Zorn's personal reactions to this article, in theory an
interesting concept (the appropriation of ethnic musics in an aging downtown scene
seeking identity), but one that was badly executed to the point of seeming like
little more than an extended attack on the very quality and authenticity not of
Zorn's music, which is scarcely touched upon in the piece, but his very Judaism.

Those who spoke first to Zorn and then to me unanimously reported his shock, dismay
and hurt.  Those around him, like Dave Douglas, were much angrier.  It is from
others that I would anticipate rebuke and vitriol... from Zorn I expect another
retreat - after all, the New York Times article was clearly a reaction to the Jazziz
piece, only the second time in the last twelve years or so that he's spoken to the
press.  I'd now expect him to look at that and say, "Well, I broke my silence and
look where it got me..."

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Pain Killer, "Dr. Phibes," 'Collected Works'


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 23:29:13 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more ny times (no jewel)

But regarding the whole klezmer issue, perhaps more to the point than "who came
first" was the exact phrasing of the statement.  What Adam wrote was, to
paraphrase, "before Zorn discovered klezmer, only Don Byron was playing with
it."  And this is a foolhardy statement to make... without having spoken to
Zorn, how was Adam to know exactly when he had "discovered" klezmer?  I'd
imagine that at the rate Zorn has assimilated music over his years of listening
and collecting, it seems likely that he had "discovered" klezmer long before he
found the personal calling to insinuate it into his own music.  But the way
it's stated, it comes off as more or less insinuating that Zorn set off on this
path of "exploiting" his roots after discovering klezmer, or at least that's
one way of reading what's there on the page.

It's just one of a whole bunch of niggling little details that damage the piece
and by extension the credibility of the writer.  And there are any number of
other details in the piece that come off as equally offensive even to someone
who doesn't know John personally at all - the fact that his route to reclaiming
his roots was defined by his having "spoken vaguely" about  his father's death
and racist treatment in Germany, his speaking in "hallucinatory tones" about
what it means to be Jewish, his desire to use Jewish suffering as his way out
of being another white jazz musician - his "right to play the blues."  All of
these things came across to me as quite disturbing and offensive, and I am
neither Jewish nor a close personal friend of John's.

And ultimately, is there not something sort of intrensically troubling about an
article which seems to say that while Arto Lindsay, while not a Brazilian, is
reclaiming/assimilating the music of his bicultural childhood in the "right"
way, Zorn, who *is* a Jew and has always *been* a Jew even when it was not the
focus of his artistry, is somehow reducing said cultural/musical influences to
exotica and "kitsch"?

Furthermore, is it not muddying the water to preface such a piece by making it
seem to be an article about the ways in which a maturing downtown scene is
seeking to rejuvenate and even locate itself via cultural appropriation, citing
Ribot's and Laswell's Cuban projects and the Brooklyn Balkan brigade as
examples and Paul Simon and Peter Gabriel as precursors?  I mean, last time I
looked, Gabriel wasn't Senegalese, Simon wasn't South African, Ribot wasn't
claiming "authenticity" and Speed wasn't trying to pass as Bulgarian...  and
yet, Zorn remains Jewish.  And shortly after beginning the piece in this
manner, it quickly abandons this tack and focuses on "Zorn = wrong / Lindsay =
right."

I mentioned in my previous message that I expected a number of responses from
Zorn's friends.  I'll add here that I wouldn't be surprised if Lindsay was
among them.

Anyway, I don't have all the answers, and I hope you'll forgive me for ranting
(you'll note Pain Killer is playing in the background).  It's just that I've
spent most of two days discussing this article with its author, other artists
involved, other writers and so on, and I guess I just need to vent a little
amongst friends.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Pain Killer, "The Toll," 'Collected Works'


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:47:21 -0400
From: "Daniel L Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: again with the NY times article.

Yes.  I finally went back and read the article in question.  Needless to
say, both as a Zorn fan and as a Jew, I was disheartened.  And it really
should -matter- who or where or when the klezmer revival began.  The
wonderful fact of the matter is that it has 'made its comeback' (so to
speak), and enjoyed by many in a multitude of situations.  The Knitt's
Jewish Alternative Movement and Zorn's Radical Jewish Culture series doing
nothing but helping it along.  (As a side thought, those who haven't heard
Paniots Nine by Joe Maneri on avant should go do the right thing...)

Dann

- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:54:45 -0400
From: "Daniel L Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [none]

Did I say "should"?  I mean "Shouldn't"  It SHOULDN'T matter where or when
or who the klez revival started with/at.

Dann

- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:22:19 -0500
From: King Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more ny times (no jewel)

>Anyway, I don't have all the answers, and I hope you'll forgive me for ranting
>(you'll note Pain Killer is playing in the background).  It's just that I've
>spent most of two days discussing this article with its author, other artists
>involved, other writers and so on, and I guess I just need to vent a little
>amongst friends.



  So what did the author have to say?  I take it you gave him an idea of
the "problems" we have been discussing about his article.  How did he react?


BTW did anyone catch the Tim Berne show in Chicago this weekend?  I was all
ready to go, and a Phish ticket dropped into my lap.  How was Berne?

This is turning out to be an interesting week in chicago.  Phish last
night, the Vandermark 5 tommorrow, and Public Enemy is Wednesday.......

  (Phish was excellent, as always)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 01:03:04 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more ny times (no jewel)

King Wilson wrote:

> So what did the author have to say?  I take it you gave him an idea of
> the "problems" we have been discussing about his article.  How did he react?

Well, at the point at which I spoke to Adam, there was little to report in terms of
"our" (i.e., the Zornlist's) problems regarding his piece, so I was only able to
relate my own gut reactions and those I'd heard from people who made it their
business to call me on Sunday and Monday morning.

To wit - as I write this it's 1 A.M. EST on Tuesday morning, and yet there has been
fairly little reaction to the NYT Sunday Arts & Leisure article as yet, even from
the Zornlist en masse.  At this point, very few of us aside from Brian, Kurt, you
and me have in fact weighed in as yet...

But if anyone else wants to say anything...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Ruben Blades on "Sessions at West 54th"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:04:32 +0200
From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Klezmer revival

I have one Klezmer Conservatory Band LP that includes Don Byron
and Frank London in the lineup...
How many records did they do as KCB?
Did the lineup contain other now luminaries of NY downtown or
other scenes?

Stephane

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Dienstag, 5. Oktober 1999 02:42
Subject: No Subject


>Also, Hankus Netsky's band The
>Klezmer Conservatory Band, should be credited for bringing the style back
>into the public eye....


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 01:28:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more ny times (no jewel)

is this article online anywhere or transcribed and in anyone's possession?
(other than *for sale* @nytimes.com)





- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #764
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