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1999-08-18
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #745
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Thursday, August 19 1999 Volume 02 : Number 745
In this issue:
-
Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Re: Computers and music-help!/Bailey and Moore
performance preferences
Re: electroacoustic music
Re: electroacoustic music
ikue mori
live material
October Tzadiks-Zorn, Yoshihide
clusone 3
Re: electroacoustic music
RE: ikue mori
Re: clusone 3
eyes vs ears
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:47:29 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
lefauxhulot@hotmail.com wrote:
>=20
> mike chamberlain wrote:
> > But I wonder if we all agree--we don't--and more importantly, how we
> > approach this issue.=A0 It's a lot more, too, than what someone is we=
aring
> > and how long their hair is.=A0 What is it that seems to be more
> > interesting about watching people blow through tubes and hit things w=
ith
> > sticks than watching someone hit buttons on a computer keyboard?
>=20
> o.k. we have been throwing stones each other based on different
> preferences... it's all relative according to your taste. you're asking
> if all of us can agree that it's more interesting watching people blow
> through tubes and hit things with sticks than watching someone hit
> buttons on a computer keyboard...
> no. not all of us can agree w/ that. you cannot generalize such thing.
I should have said "more interesting to me" or "to most people" or "to
some people." And if it is more interesting, why is it more
interesting? I'm really just looking for the opinions of others on this
question. We obviously don't all agree. I'm not asking if we can all
agree. I am asking if we can share ideas. But that involves reading
very clearly what the other person is trying to say.
> i know way too many people get turned off just because there are some
> people standing with some horns & strings, and play songs... and even
> worse, between songs they'd wait & expect audience to clap their hands
> &/or applaud. you probably cannot imagine such folks simply turn their
> heads away if there's one performer playing the guitar & singing, or
> blowing horns & screaming, or whatever.
> those people you cannot imagine existing=20
Excuse me? What makes you think I cannot imagine these people
existing? Do you think that my imagination, feeble as it is, is so
limited that I cannot imagine someone having a different aesthetic sense
than I do?
would ask where they'd be able
> to see some djs or electronics performers sitting behind samplers or
> laptops! for them, rather than watching some sweating players showing
> off how hard they are playing, they'd love to see somebody sitting cool=
y
> behind one little laptop blasting massive sound as if it's not a big
> deal. (although, many of them might've prepared w/ so much work & sweat
> for the performance?! - well, it's not so important to me anyway how
> much they prepared... as long as it sounds good to me.)
> hey, it's all relative. nothing applies everything/everybody.
Thank you. I didn't know this before. I only landed on the planet
about 6 months ago.
>=20
> > Maybe we can turn this discussion in a slightly different direction.
> > Apart from what we see as the merits of a particular musical and
> > instrumental approach, what role does "performance" and staging have =
to
> > play in our enjoyment?=A0 Thinking of Victo still, on Thursday night,
> > Maxime Rioux presented Automates K.=A0 The performance consisted of
> > programming "robots," for lack of a better word, to produce sounds.
> > Now, the music that was produced was not so great, mainly because Max=
ime
> > seemed to abandon his ideas too quickly without letting them develop.
> > But a big part of the fun was watching the robots themselves.=A0 Howe=
ver,
> > everything was set up on a stage at the front, so most of the audienc=
e
> > did not have a good view of what was happening.=A0 I talked with Maxi=
me
> > afteward, and he was disappointed because they weren't able to stage =
the
> > whole thing in the middle of the room.=A0 Michel Levasseur seemed to =
be
> > inflexible in this regard, or perhaps the technical people were daunt=
ed
> > by the effort that doing this would have entailed.=A0 Anyway, it seem=
ed an
> > opportunity lost.=A0 And it's a shame, because it would have added a =
lot
> > to my enjoyment, and everyone else's.=A0 Now both Tom and Kurt have s=
aid
> > that it is the music that matters, that we go to listen, not to see.
>=20
> i know maxime personally. one of his tapes he gave me more than 2 yrs.
> ago was this automates thing. i liked it a lot. however, you'd say it's
> more entertaining since there are robots.
It is. How would it not be more entertaining?
> it's as if you'd rather see visually attractive performance w/ mediocre
> sound than motionless performance w/ great sounds.
Hello? Hello? Hello? Read my @&*$!! post again man! I neither said
nor implied any such thing. I specifically said that Maxime's musical
performance was lacking, and I gave a reason that had to do with the
music. I also said that the visual aspect was lacking, and I gave a
reason for that, which had to do with the staging. In fact, he
performed for about 20 minutes earlier that day at the opening press
conference, and the music was better that time, because he did allow the
ideas to develop. If you have not figured it out by now, I am
distinguishing between the musical and visual aspects of the
performance. They both have something to do with my enjoyment of going
to see/hear someone play. If the music is bad, then a flash performance
cannot cover that up. And if the music is good, then I can enjoy it
with my eyes closed. Is that clear enough for you?
> (well, you'd say it's even better if both can be provided... so, you
> high five with jazz stuff... but i've seen many mediocre jazz stuff w/
> lots of sweat & blowing too.)
>=20
> blindfolded or not, great sounds are great experience. if
> o'rourke/muller performance was not great sonic experience, it's just
> that.
> not to be complained because its lack of theatrical sense.
Why not? If the music sucks, then there is nothing. It's worth
complaining about. Or can *you* not imagine that this should be a
concern?
> i can enjoy music w/ or w/o visual entertainment. but for the people wh=
o
> cannot get it, (as i mentioned before) a lot of electronic artists/
> eventers are making a lot of effort to make them feel relaxed & enjoy
> the space _including_ their sounds. don't consider those visuals are
> cover-ups for the inferior sounds. no. good sounds are (in any formats)
> good.
Really? I would have never guessed.
period. but many of those artists (maybe not o'rourke or muller,
> but many other electronic music performers) are into interacting w/
> people. any people. not cutting out those who wouldn't get it. so.. mak=
e
> whole space enjoyable, touchable, walkable... what's wrong with that?!?
Never said there was anything wrong with that. In fact, I'm in favor of
it.
> i think all traditional instrumental performers rather cut themselves
> away from those who come & see their shows. 'we're on stage playing.
> you're sitting on chairs watching & applauding' kinda attitude.
> but... yeah. it's all relative. you want that hard chair & watching
> towards single direction & applaude. i wouldn't mind that too sometimes=
,
> but i'd go out w/ my pillow to soak in the multi-directional soundscape
> by more than one act seamlessly provided by some performers in turns
> behind laptops or turntables w/o watching them. both are cool to me.
Well, whatever does it for you. If you read my original post again, you
will see that I am not arguing for one way of receiving performances as
a spectator. I am very much in favor of alternative approaches, which I
think should be explored. And yes, they are part of the whole
experience, maybe not as much as the music, maybe as much as the music,
and in some cases, more than the music. But that's up to the
performer/artist.
>=20
- --Mike
- --=20
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy=20
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:07:44 -0400
From: "H. Figurine" <h@weirdness.com>
Subject: Re: Computers and music-help!/Bailey and Moore
>I am looking to purchase a computer next week. I want to use it for music
>recording, editing, composing etc. Unfortunatly, I don't know enough about
>the hardware and software I need. What would anyone here recommend?
>(soundcard, harddrive, cd burner etc.) You can respond privatly.
I'm on a pentium 2. w/ 3.5 gig harddrive, 32 megs ram and a 32 bit Zoltrix
soundcard. I use a few programs to record, edit and master.
CoolEditPro & SoundForge for creation, editing and effects.
MultiQuence to arrange. These will get you started.
Of course there's 800 more programs out there that are similiar maybe even
better, but these work great for me.
If you're looking for something more specific or links to these progs email
me privatly and I'll try to help you out :)
out
H
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:59:01 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: performance preferences
Part of what I look for in live performances is based on expectations.
When I go to a 'jazz' concert, I look for the musicians interacting visibly
with each other, playing something not exactly like what I might hear on a
CD, even if I know the songs. When I go hear someone like Laurie Anderson,
I expect a staged multi-media performance with little improvisation or
variation. If I were to attend a Gunter or Ikeda (or any other
electroacoustic *composer*) live performance, I'd expect a dark room so I
could listen to the music as the composer intended, rather than what I
think sounds good in my home environment (especially Gunter -- I'd love to
know what the proper volume is for his music).
I'm not sure what I'd expect from a concert like O'Rourke and Muller
(although I intend to find out next year when I go to my first Victo), but
I hope that it would be based on the music first and foremost. If the
venue leaves something to be desired, I can bet that my mind will wander to
unmusical thoughts. Recently I attended a Cobra concert which had a DJ as
a warmup, and the DJ did some amazing things with loops, where I could see
him doing things, but they were unconnected with the sounds that I heard.
Since it was in a bar, there were various conversations going on, and it
functioned more as background in preparation for the 'main event', but it
was fascinating nonetheless.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:02:32 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: electroacoustic music
I'd second all the recommendations below, but everyone on this list is
*old*. For younger composers, I'd recommend Jacques Tremblay, Bernhard
Gunter, Paul Dolden, Darren Copeland, RLW (Ralf Wehowsky), Chris Watson,
Andrew Mackenzie (Hafler Trio), Annette Vande Gorne, and Ned Bouhalassa.
At 07:25 PM 8/17/99 EDT, JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
>
><< Pierre Henry, 'Variations pour une porte et un soupir' (1963), harmonia
>mundi HMA 1905200
>Pierre Henry 'L'homme a la camera' (1993), Mantra 092/642350
>Vladimir Ussachevsky, 'Film Music', (1967), New World Records 80389-2
>Vladimir Ussachevsky, a new album on the CRI label containing his earlier
>works (1957-1971); don't have the info handy
>Various Artists, 'Pioneers of electronic music', CRI american masters, CD
>611 (w/ ussachevsky, Luening, others).
>Xenakis, 'electronic music', EMF/IMA GRM EMF CD 003
>B. Parmegiani, 'de natura sonorum', (1975), INA GRM
>B Parmegiani, 'la creation du monde', INA GRM
>F. Bayle, 'vibrations composees and grand polyphonie', INA GRM
>Luc Ferrari, 'presque rien', INA GRM >>
>
>my list would include the Parmegiani, Bayle, Ferrari, and Xenakis listed
>above by Whit, and add Henry's Apocalypse de Jean (Mantra) and Messe Pour Le
>Temps Present (Philips France), Xenakis' Legende d'Eer (Auvidis Montaigne),
>Stockhausen's Telemusik and Hymnen (Stockhausen Verlag), Gottfried Michael
>Koenig's Electronic Works (BVHaast) and Arne Nordheim's Electric (Rune
>Grammofon).
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 01:07:45 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: electroacoustic music
In a message dated 8/18/99 7:58:17 PM, cdeupree@erinet.com writes:
<< Annette Vande Gorne, and Ned Bouhalassa. >>
who are these two? I've never heard of them.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 01:53:29 EDT
From: APoesia794@aol.com
Subject: ikue mori
does anyone know what kind of drum machines and samplers ikue mori uses?
thanks. jason t.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 01:59:33 EDT
From: APoesia794@aol.com
Subject: live material
does anyone have any live material (video or audio) of the following artists:
ikue mori, derek bailey, bob ostertag, otomo yoshihide, christian marclay,
peter brotzmann, mathew shipp, susie ibarra.
please respond privately. thanks. jt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 02:37:24 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: October Tzadiks-Zorn, Yoshihide
from the Tzadik web site, to be released in October:
ARCHIVAL SERIES John Zorn: Taboo and Exile =20
Not since the early days of Naked City has there been a CD as remarkably=20
varied and at the same time as enjoyable as Taboo and Exile. Running the=20
gamut of styles from moody exotica, hardcore punk, classical, jazz, surf,=20
world music and more, this second volume of this new Music Romance Series=20
features twelve new Zorn compositions performed by the very best of today=92=
s=20
musical visionaries: guitar heroes Marc Ribot, Fred Frith and Robert Quine,=20
bass renegade Bill Laswell, percussion masters Joey Baron, Dave Lombardo and=20
Cyro Baptista, the Masada String Trio and vocalists Mike Patton and Miho=20
Hatori, among others. For lovers of music in all its various mutations. =A0=20
COMPOSERS SERIES Otomo Yoshihide: Cathode =20
Otomo Yoshihide has become one of Japan=92s busiest and most well known musi=
cal=20
ambassadors, performing and recording with leading experimentalists the worl=
d=20
over. Since the disbanding of his raucous and popular band Ground Zero Otomo=20
has written film and dance scores, and recorded dozens of ambient and noise=20
projects. Here he steps out as a serious composer. Modulation #1 and #2 are=20
two of his most satisfying and provocative recordings, combining traditional=20
Japanese instruments like the sho with noise, improvisation and ambient=20
drones. The Cathode pieces combine an ensemble of some of Tokyo=92s most=20
interesting improvisers with analog electronics, turntables, samplers and=20
tape manipulations to create an eclectric world of soundtrack moods,=20
contemporary compositions and electronics. =A0=20
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 02:31:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hywel Davies <hywel99@yahoo.com>
Subject: clusone 3
any opinions/reviews of the cds by the clusone 3 would be
welcome...also, the cd by Joelle Leandre/ Rudiger Carl - "blue goo
park" (FMP)and Kowald/Smith/Sommer - "touch the earth..break the
shells"
thanks for your time...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:51:54 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: electroacoustic music
At 01:07 AM 8/19/99 EDT, JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
><< Annette Vande Gorne, and Ned Bouhalassa. >>
>
>who are these two? I've never heard of them.
They're on empreintes digitales (a great label all the way around). Vande
Gorne has two albums, the first of which is Tao, a suite in five movements
based on the five elements (wood, fire, air, water, earth). Each movement
uses sounds from the respective element. The nature sounds are very well
done, this is one ofo the albums that always made my wife look out the
window to see if it was raining. Bouhalassa is in their short CD series
(almost all of these that I've heard are great). He mixes some almost
techno-like sounds in with the electroacoustic gestures and creates a very
interesting sonic mix. There should be samples from each at the empreintes
digitales web site, http://www.cam.org/~dim.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:37:14 -0400
From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <rvanheumen@issgroup.net>
Subject: RE: ikue mori
>does anyone know what kind of drum machines and samplers ikue mori uses?
3 alesis drummachines (i think hr-16, the old models, which are supposed to
be better)
robert
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:02:10 -0500
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: clusone 3
Hywel Davies wrote:
>
> any opinions/reviews of the cds by the clusone 3 would be
> welcome...also, the cd by Joelle Leandre/ Rudiger Carl - "blue goo
> park" (FMP)and Kowald/Smith/Sommer - "touch the earth..break the
> shells"
Touch The Earth/Break The Shells is a really welcome document of the
Smith/Kowald/Sommer band that held together for a couple of years. It's
an important recording for Smith because it covers the period of his
conversion to Rastafarianism, and he's in wonderful voice on it.
I'm partial to I Am An Indian of the Clusone recordings, but they're
all terrifically entertaining. That's a band I'm going to miss, though
their stage show was getting a little old.
James Hale
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 11:04:52 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: eyes vs ears
Lest I seem to much the puritanical effete academe or sumthin -- I love when
visual components are added to a music performance. Like Peter "Knucklehead"
said, Cobra's a perfect example. I'm not a big dance fan, but I'll go out of my
way to see musicians I like when they're performing with dancers because it
brings another element, a visual one, to the interpretation. I saw the Japanese
singer/player Cornelius last night, and he makes great use of synchronized
video. And I'll never forget Erotec, the concert I saw a couple years ago with
Threadgill (all hail Threadgill) and Make a Move decked out in amazing costumes
with a dance troup doing this odd, beautiful, mechanistic choreography. Watching
Cecil, of course, is also amazing. And, having played a little sax and guitar in
my day, I do enjoy watching a talented players hands move in ways mine's can't.
So, while I appreciate it when a musician brings that quality to a performance,
I don't think it's fair to be critical of one who doesn't. As long as they get
their first order of business done -- playing interesting music (which, Mike, I
respect your thinking O'Rourke failed in).
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #745
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