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Zorn List Digest        Tuesday, June 15 1999        Volume 02 : Number 678



In this issue:
-
       Re]: It's Not Just Size/the Visual Arts
       Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig
       Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig
       Re: Introduction
       Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig
       record collections
       Gainsbourg / Ornette
       Re: record collections
       Re: Zorn's Record Collection
       reissues of David Van Tieghem records
       Boredoms review
       Re: record collections
       Dead weight - was record collections
       collections
       Re: $4.95, too good to be true??
       Waits 'n Stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 99 12:39:03 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re]: It's Not Just Size/the Visual Arts

Scott Handley opined:

>No one should be made to feel afraid to ASK anything, goddamn it.

Aside from the general excellence of Scott's response, I'd nominate this line to
be boldfaced somewhere on the FAQ.

As no one's yet responded to Scott's original query re: the visual arts scene,
I'll give it a go.

In a word: dismal. Much of what has passed for "serious" art (for the purposes
of this discussion, I'm confining myself to painting, sculpture and photography)
has been all too easily absorbed into pop culture, often willingly. So one gets
the spectacle of decent painters like Hockney, Fischl, Clemente, etc. posing in
fashion magazines, being feted by the blue-haired taste-makers alongside
swimsuit models at champagne galas etc. I may have missed it, but I've yet to
see similar "honors" accorded Cecil, Braxton or Zorn (happily). Analogies are
often drawn between the avant-gardes of various forms but, more often than not,
I find them misapplied. Someone like Julian Schnabel has much more in common
with Madonna than Brotzmann (or Van Vliet, whose painting he's championed).

A large part of this problem might be traced to a simple, mundane fact: that one
can, nominally, appreciate a painting, say, in a five second glance. A rather
chilling experience can be had by loitering around any major gallery or museum
and watching how long the average patron spends in front of a given work. This,
of course, works hand in hand with the typical contemporary artist's aim of
producing a work that hits one over the head (kinda like a pop music hook, eh?)
with an immediate, if shallow, impression instead of work that needs to be
grappled with, looked deeply into, etc. Much so-called serious art strikes
this viewer as the equivalent of a three minute pop ditty: more or less well
constructed and digestable, but instantly forgettable.

Enough griping; how about some recommendations? Personally, the one painter I
admire without reservation is someone who I'll be mighty surprised if he's
known to anyone here, William Beckman. He produces penetrating, though extremely
subtle, psychological portraits (of himself and friends) and expansive
landscapes. He's quite unfashionable in that his portraiture is not of the
freak-show variety of Alice Neel or Bacon, or distanced a la Katz, and his
landscapes are always of worked fields, evincing a deep appreciation of
agriculture. In one sense, he's old-fashioned (technically, he employs an
astonishing realist style, something that actually might detract from his work
as far as the casual "sophisticated" observer is concerned, who can more easily
focus on the formal aspects of a painting than the subject matter); he simply
observes in a straightforward matter, but he pulls an enormous volume of human
depth from his subjects. Closer in spirit to Holbein, Ingres or Ruisdael than
any contemporary I could think of. But difficult, I'd guess, for the modern
viewer to get a hold on, as he provides no easy port of entry to his subjects;
one has to work.

Others whose work I enjoy: Chuck Close (here, an analogy to some minimalist
composers might well be drawn), Rackstraw Downes (best name of any painter this
century!), Rauschenberg, Agnes Martin, Antonio Tapies (still alive, I think?),
Anselm Kiefer, Bob Bechtle, Wayne Thiebaud, some Richard Estes, John Salt, some
Gregory Gillespie, Lucien Freud, William Bailey, Alfred Leslie, even Hockney's
recent small scale work...

I don't follow photography very closely at all, but have always enjoyed the work
of William Eggleston, Joel Meyerowitz and Andres Serrano, among others.

Just my two cents. Like Scott, I'd certainly be curious to hear of other
listers' fave visual artists. Given the range of writers discussed last year,
I'm sure there'd be some intriguing choices.

Brian Olewnick










- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:42:19 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig

johnrust wrote:

>
> The european prices for Tom Waits live are just as expensive as they are in
> States... Really sad, I won't be able to affor 160 DM for seeing him, also
> I was dreamin' about it since I was a kid livin' in the USSR ....

My wife thought I was nuts when I told her that I would pay over $100
(just throwing a number out) to see Tom Waits.  He's the one artist in
the world that I would do that for.

Easy for her to say that, as she's the one who *has* seen Waits live.

- --Mike

NP: Waits: Get Behind the Mule (thank God my five-year-old loves this
album)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:40:18 -0700
From: s~Z <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig

> My wife thought I was nuts when I told her that I would pay over $100
> (just throwing a number out) to see Tom Waits.
> --Mike

My wife was pissed that we DID (combined cost of 2 tix was over $100)
especially when she climbed high up into the balcony looking down on
people in the front row who paid the same price we did.

But, then he took the stage.

Now she'd pay more if it was required.

I'm still bathing in the experience.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:52:57 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Introduction

In a message dated 6/15/99 11:28:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> if by nothing, you're implying that the food court shows were free, they
> most
>  certainly were not. I paid $36 for two tickets to the Olivia Tremor
>  Control/Dirty Three, and the sound for the OTC was so bad they were almost
>  unlistenable. if it wasn't for the Dirty Three managing to overcome the
>  putrid sound and playing a great set in their only US appearance of 1999
>  (Warren Ellis wished us all Happy New Year), I'd be even more irritated
> about
>  the whole thing.

I guess I wasnt very clear on that... I meant that they got the room for
nothing.  As soon as I first heard the word "atrium", I knew it was going to
be a shitty sounding room... anyways, lets hope they find another location
for next year.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:44:25 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Waits tik prices [was: questions ..... and Kletka Red Berlin gig

s~Z wrote:
>
> > My wife thought I was nuts when I told her that I would pay over $100
> > (just throwing a number out) to see Tom Waits.
> > --Mike
>
> My wife was pissed that we DID (combined cost of 2 tix was over $100)
> especially when she climbed high up into the balcony looking down on
> people in the front row who paid the same price we did.
>
> But, then he took the stage.
>
> Now she'd pay more if it was required.
>
> I'm still bathing in the experience.

I hate you. :-)

- --Mike

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:47:25 -0400
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: record collections

Well, I tried to bite my tongue on this topic but the posts
keep coming and it seems the most obvious point has been
over-looked.

When you start talking about record collections that grow
by four or five discs each day, (I think the exact number
was 4.7), uninterrupted for decades
on end, one naturally suspects that the records are not
being listened to.  Does the collector spend
four to five hours each day listening to new records?  Does
he/she spend four to five additional hours each day giving
records second listens.  Presumably, no.  Then, the collection
is one of unlistened-to discs and, as such, a waste,
from which no one, not the collector and not anyone else,
derives any pleasure.  If there is a sin in buying records,
surely it is this:  depriving someone else of the opportunity
of listening to some rare, delicacy of a record, simply to
count that disc among one's collection.

The point of a collection of unlistened-to records is solely
to satisfy a compulsive urge to own and to possess.  It's no virtue
and there is nothing to be admired in it.
And to be jealous of such a collection, as someone on the list
suggested, is ridiculous.  It's like being jealous of someone else's
weakness or addiction or deformity.

As for myself, and I believe this is true of the majority
of people who buy records (on this list or otherwise),
I don't purchase a record unless I intend to listen to it.
It seems sort of an obvious statement, but in
this current conversation, it is apparently not the only reason
for purchasing a record.  In fact, if I buy a record, and I
dislike it to such an extent that I can't listen to it twice
(or god forbid listen to it once completely) then I am
disappointed.  It is unfathomable to me the motivation for someone
to purchase a new record and then not even listen to it.

David K.


p.s.
Saw Vandermark 5 at a pizza parlor in Knoxville, TN
last Sunday night and they were very fine, Saw
M. Gira's Angels of Light in Atlanta a couple days
earlier and they were also a sight to behold.  Both
are on tour.  If they come to your town, I recommend
them.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gainsbourg / Ornette

> He claims that although SG was great, some of his
> arrangements suck - and so Mick changes them .... completely! (e.g. Lemon
> Incest).

I don't know the later Gainsbourg stuff (after '70) but I think the
arrangements are just about perfect on the earlier ones I've heard.  Those
are _Couleur Cafe_ (especially) and _Du Jazz Dans Le Ravin_, which may be
part of that 3 CD set, in which case the other would be the _Comic Strip_
CD someone else mentioned.  These are great CDs, but being compilations
you would think they could have made them longer than 45 minutes apiece.

> 1st thing: as far as i understood 32000 was just the VINYL!!!!

The article said it was 25,000 vinyl and 7,000 CDs.

>Ornette Coleman

Just to chime in, my favorite ones, not including stuff only in the
box set, are _The Shape of Jazz to Come_ and the Golden Circle albums on
Blue note. The Golden Circle is a trio (sax/bass/drums) and has
consistently excellent soloing by Ornette and a nice variety (uptempo
major key, uptempo minor key, nursery rhyme waltz, and slow, tempoless
ballad).

> > How about that Zorn/Laswell/Frith/Lombardo set?  Sounded incredible to me.

Was this show all improvised or were they playing from written stuff?  I
was also wondering what type of stuff the Zorn/Medeski/Ribot group plays -
covers, originals, improv ... ?

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:46:51 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: record collections

On Tue, Jun 15, 1999 at 03:47:25PM -0400, David Keffer wrote:

> When you start talking about record collections that grow
> by four or five discs each day, (I think the exact number
> was 4.7), uninterrupted for decades
> on end, one naturally suspects that the records are not
> being listened to.  Does the collector spend
> four to five hours each day listening to new records?  Does
> he/she spend four to five additional hours each day giving
> records second listens.  Presumably, no.  Then, the collection
> is one of unlistened-to discs and, as such, a waste,
> from which no one, not the collector and not anyone else,
> derives any pleasure.  If there is a sin in buying records,
> surely it is this:  depriving someone else of the opportunity
> of listening to some rare, delicacy of a record, simply to
> count that disc among one's collection.

Like many others here, i have a large collection -- if two
rippings-off had not happened, by now I'd have some 80 feet
worth of LPs, six feet of 45s, and some 2000 CDs. I figure that
I get on the average one CD a day.

Almost all the recordings I've gotten, I've intended to hear.
Some of them, however, I've only wanted for a track or two,
or for the liner notes or packaging.

I keep CDs that I haven't yet completely listened to on a separate case
from those that I've integrated into my collection. There are
about 400 there now; those that I don't eventually get to will be
purged and either swapped or sold back to used CD stores.

Most of the large-scale collectors that I have known do the same.

- --
[e-mail]            http://www.metatronpress.com/~jzitt
Latest Solo CD: Gentle Entropy           http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt
Comma: Voices of New Music      Silence: the John Cage Discussion List
Next Comma Performance:     June 19, 6 PM, Art-O-Matic, Washington, DC

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:29:17 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's Record Collection

On Tue, 15 Jun 99 10:30:12 -0600, Doug Tapia <[e-mail]> sed:

> when you have a serious collection of any kind, and people know about
> this collection, you start to have all sorts of stuff given to you.  I'm
> not talking about promo stuff and disks by friends, I'm talking about
> widows and disillusioned collectors.

Good point.  You also have to realize that people in the music biz get lots of promos
from record companies and artists all the time.  It's really hard to truly appreciate
everything when you have such a stack of music.  I have a few thousands and there's
some great records that I haven't had the chance to listen to in years.

I'd like to think that when I'm ready to kick, I'd want to do something noble like
donating all of it to the Public Library so that everyone could enjoy the music.

Best,
Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:31:52 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: reissues of David Van Tieghem records

- ------- Forwarded Message

Path: news.or.intel.com!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!nntp.earthlink.net!posted-from-earthlink!dvt
From: [e-mail] (David Van Tieghem)
Newsgroups: rec.music.ambient
Subject: Van Tieghem CD Re-Releases
Date: Sun, Jun 13 17:17:37 1999
X-Posted-Path-Was: dvt
X-ELN-Date: 14 Jun 1999 00:15:39 GMT
X-ELN-Insert-Date: Sun Jun 13 17:35:03 1999
Organization: Boomer Music
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0
Lines: 15
Mime-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: [e-mail]
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip125.an11-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>

Hi,

For those interested, re-releases of my 2nd and 3rd CDs, "Safety In
Numbers" and "Strange Cargo" are now available through MP3.com at

http://www.mp3.com/artists/17/david_van_tieghem.html

I also expect to have my first album, "These Things Happen," available
there as well within a week.

Thanks for listening!
David Van Tieghem
Composer/Percussionist/Performer/Sound Designer
Original Music for Film, Theater, Dance & Multimedia
[e-mail]      http://home.earthlink.net/~dvt


- ------- End of Forwarded Message


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:19:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeni Dahmus <[e-mail]>
Subject: Boredoms review

A Boredoms concert review is in today's Washington Post
(www.washingtonpost.com).

Jeni




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:34:09 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: record collections

In a message dated 6/15/99 4:06:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Almost all the recordings I've gotten, I've intended to hear.
 Some of them, however, I've only wanted for a track or two,
 or for the liner notes or packaging.

 I keep CDs that I haven't yet completely listened to on a separate case
 from those that I've integrated into my collection. There are
 about 400 there now; those that I don't eventually get to will be
 purged and either swapped or sold back to used CD stores.

 Most of the large-scale collectors that I have known do the same. >>

I can't even claim to do this.  The only CDs/LPs I ever get rid of are those
I don't like.  I've quit calling myself a collector and have begun calling
myself an archivist (though my wife looks at my hobby as something of an
obsessive/compulsive disorder...I can live with that...)

=dgasque=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:56:39 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dead weight - was record collections

In a message dated 6/15/99 3:49:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< The point of a collection of unlistened-to records is solely
 to satisfy a compulsive urge to own and to possess.   >>

Anyone care to indulge a thread about records/discs they own that get played
the least?

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:04:53 -0400
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: collections

Umberto Eco had some kind of wiseguy answer to people who ask if he's read
all the books he has but of course I've forgotten it since it wasn't that
funny.  His point, however, was that these books are his tools and that
nobody would ask a mechanic if he uses all those various sockets or
wrenches.  Use the word "library" instead of "collection" and see if people
catch the difference in intention.  (Personally I prefer "my stuff.")

LT
- ----------------------------------------------
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

World Cinema Review
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4/wcr.htm


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:26:23 -0400
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: $4.95, too good to be true??

FWIW, I placed my order for 10 CD's on  the 3rd of june and heard
nothing til today when I received the following;



To our loyal customer:

Thank you for your recent order of CDs from Onlinestores at ShopNow.com --
we're happy to offer you great prices on thousands of titles.  Our team has
been overwhelmed by the response to this offer and currently has a number
of CDs on backorder from the distributor resulting in you either not
receiving your order or receiving a partial order.  We're working closely
with the distributor to ensure that your order is fulfilled as soon as
possible.  We apologize for the delay, and wanted you to know that your
business and patience is appreciated.


Oh well.........

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:06:11 PDT
From: ajda snyder <[e-mail]>
Subject: Waits 'n Stuff

Yo!  I've been on this list for about a month and enjoy it's frequent
silliness and the opportunity to gain further insight into the avant- garde.

As far as the record collection goes, I thought I had a decent amount of
CD's (I'm 22, so my vinyl collection sucks)but now I see that I'm a
lightweight compared to the likes of Zorn and some of you...

I had the good fortune to see Tom Waits at SXSW in Austin about 3 months
ago, completely free of charge because the people organizing the festival
gave away about 200 tickets to people who bought wristbands.  It was at the
Paramount theatre in downtown Austin.  The show started close to midnight,
and Waits performed for two hours straight, including the encore.  It is a
lavish space, and the evening was spectacular.  I really like the way he
moves around when he sings - it reminds me of a skeleton dancing around.
He's truly quirky...
His show totally redeemed the entire festival, which is sadly declining in
quality in a major way.

As far as Zorn's Avant involvement, does anyone know whay happened to the
band Alva (from Tampa,FL)?  Their first album was pretty entertaining---

Turkish Queen




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #678
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