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1999-03-25
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #634
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, March 26 1999 Volume 02 : Number 634
In this issue:
-
Re: negativland book
Re:
Re: negativland book
Negativland
Re: negativland book
Soup/PantyChrist.
RE: Negativland
RE: negativland book
Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
Horace Tapscott
Re: Negativland
Re: PantyChrist.
Spending some quality time with Big John
Re: Spending some quality time with Big John
Re: Negativland
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:30:30 +0000
From: nils <jacobson@frodo.mgh.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: negativland book
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>
> Negativland is a band heavy on rethoric and litigation but which has, to
> my opinion, failed to put out anything significant on the music map
> (some of their songs were fun for a couple of listenings, but like any
> comedy show, it did not pass the test of multiple listenings). Which
> means that I would not worry too much about their "artistic creativity"
> (at least from a music point of view, because as far as litigation, PR,
> and playing the role of the innocent victim is concerned, they are true
> geniuses).
My, aren't we cynical. I think I'll still be
listening to "Guns" in the year 2020, but that
could just be due to the fact that I like bad comedy.
It doesn't really matter whether they knew it was
going to happen. The litigative events
surrounding U2 were ugly. Take Negativland as a
model for what happens when the big egos in the
music industry vent their steam. Does it offend
you that they put on a performance out of being
persecuted? Wouldn't you, in their shoes?
- -Nils
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:56:34 -0800
From: s~Z <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re:
> The Tapscott story was actually in yesterday's edition, March 24, not
> today's. Sorry for the error. I took the copy off the rack, naturally
> assuming it was today's paper.
>
> Michael J. Williams
Thanks. I'm glad you got the wrong paper, because I get the Ventura County
edition which tucks the LA Metro stuff way in the back, and I missed the
Tapscott article which I am very glad to now have in my hands. I was
surprised at the number of articles on Tapscott after his death actually,
but continue to complain ad nauseum to the Calendar Section editors for
their woeful under-coverage of this music by its living performers. A lot
of good it does the likes of John Carter and Horace Tapscott to get some
press after they've died. Vinny Golia, et al. will be front page news,
then.
I know, I know.....I'm preaching to the converted.
And everyone said:
AMEN!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:07:23 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: negativland book
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:30:30 +0000 nils wrote:
>
> It doesn't really matter whether they knew it was
> going to happen. The litigative events
> surrounding U2 were ugly. Take Negativland as a
> model for what happens when the big egos in the
> music industry vent their steam. Does it offend
> you that they put on a performance out of being
> persecuted? Wouldn't you, in their shoes?
^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! Being slapped in the face for being a pain in the arse is surely not
something very enjoyable, but it does not reach the level of persecution
(look a little bit at the news (I mean outside USA), to get an idea what
persecution and being a victim really mean). But for cry babies who are
denied their toy, no word seems to be strong enough...
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:37:34 -0500
From: Peter Risser <risser@goodnews.net>
Subject: Negativland
<< Patrice say:
PS: not to mention that without U2, nobody would even know what Negativland
is.
>>
Patrice, you've been in a particularly foul mood lately. I would dare to
say that most people would not know who Negativland were without this
record, but I've been into them since Escape from Noise, and many of my
friends and colleagues since far before that. Admittedly, a tremendously
small subset of the general populace, but I bet many of the musicophiles on
this list had heard of them long before as well.
I have to debate your claim that they are all rhetoric and no music. As I
stated before in my longish post, I think that their albums are pretty
close to genius workings of sampled material. I will agree that SINCE the
U2 "fiasco", they have degenerated into nothing but a spokesband, and
they've lost all that made them cool in the first place.
Also, I think they knew they might piss people off, but probably had no
idea to what extent they'd get screwed.
Also, the book IS a great read. The lawyers come off sounding like
complete bullies and U2 had no idea this was going on (keep in mind this
was happening while they were on their huge Zooropa tour, where Bono and
friends were illegally rebroadcasting for a paying audience thousands of
minutes of TV shows). In fact, I've heard that it's no longer U2 that
keeps them from re-releasing the thing, but Casey Kasem. Go figure.
I'd also agree that although it's terribly funny, it is a joke CD, good for
a couple of listens, and Island would have been MUCH better off letting it
lie. However they're earlier stuff is great.
So I think, anyway.
Peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:27:11 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: negativland book
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, nils wrote:
> listening to "Guns" in the year 2020, but that
> could just be due to the fact that I like bad comedy.
yes, me too.
but...
> It doesn't really matter whether they knew it was
> going to happen. The litigative events
> surrounding U2 were ugly. Take Negativland as a
> model for what happens when the big egos in the
> music industry vent their steam. Does it offend
> you that they put on a performance out of being
> persecuted? Wouldn't you, in their shoes?
i think it would be fair to complain
that Negativland are a band who don't
understand the delicate nature of diplomacy
politics -- knowing when to stop while
you're still ahead. they've been beating
the "poor us, we're oppressed!" horse
for so many years now, it's sort of getting
old and tired. at a certain point, one
needs to shit or get off the pot, y'know?
what's odd is that they have been moving
forward and working on new stuff, putting
out other bands on their Seeland label,
playing live with folks like Wet Gate or
People Like Us and whatnot... but they
don't seem to want to hype that as much
as their underdog cachet status. that
tells us something, i would think.
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:35:08 -0500
From: "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Soup/PantyChrist.
In defense of Soup, I've found the following artists to be quite good
downtempo hip hop: Ruf Neck Piano and Cappablack. Would appeal to those
who appreciate DJ Vadim/Andre Gurov. Also, Weedbeats is a jazzy type
project featuring turntables by Tsunoda Tsuguto (who has worked with Otomo
Yoshihide on Les Sculptuers Des Vinyl, and also worked with Cult Junk Cafe
and TV Pow).
>> (Justin told me this long story about how they had a hard time with
record labels
>> releasing it). I must say that it is very interesting, but not quite as
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Are you surprised? With all the litigation experience they gathered during
>their U2 saga, and all the problems they seem to have with everybody, they
>have a reputation of being trouble makers (true or false, I don't know).
>If I were a record label, I would flee them like the plague (I would not
>want to take the risk of being accountable for their record not selling
>more than 100,000 copies, and them missing the Grammy Award...).
Panty Christ is not Negativland, just released on Seeland (Negativland's
label), so you're argument here is kinda confusing. PantyChrist was
originally slated to be on Asphodel, but Ostertag took issue (justly) with
their policy to enforce copyright laws on the work regardless of who and
how it is sampled in the future ... and without getting the agreement of
Ostertag/Yoshihide/Bond in pursuing such claims.
- ---
Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar
W. W. J. D?
(What would Jason Do?)
http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
ICQ@13792120
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 00:50:33 +0100
From: "J. Kan" <j.kan@agora.it>
Subject: RE: Negativland
For the record, the piece about David and the cigarettes (as well as, of
course, the dog juice and the HR steam cleaner) is from _A Big 10-8 Place_,
Negativland's paean to suburbia, and to the East Bay (SF) in particular.
Although I guess one could argue that all their records are paeans to
suburbia in some way....
The one that seems to have been overshadowed by _U2_ and its ensuing furor
is _Helter Stupid_, which to me is a bit more interesting, both as music and
as spectacle.
Jim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:05:00 +0100
From: "J. Kan" <j.kan@agora.it>
Subject: RE: negativland book
> What was initially a fun and fairly entertaining poke at a big mainstream
> band (which deserved that somebody makes fun at them), ended up to get
> very tiring (it seems like it lasted 3-4 years!). They have milked that
> U2 story for so many years that I want to puke just thinking about it (I
> almost did at one of their show -- and it was three years after the affair
> started...). As a result of that, I almost find U2 sympathetic.
Hmm. I guess that's what happens to martyrs when they don't actually die....
Jim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:17:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Jason J. Tar wrote:
> Panty Christ is not Negativland, just released on Seeland (Negativland's
> label), so you're argument here is kinda confusing. PantyChrist was
> originally slated to be on Asphodel, but Ostertag took issue (justly) with
> their policy to enforce copyright laws on the work regardless of who and
> how it is sampled in the future ... and without getting the agreement of
> Ostertag/Yoshihide/Bond in pursuing such claims.
I'm confused: whose policy was it to enforce which copyright laws on what,
and why was this a problem?
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:29:20 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:35:08 -0500 "Jason J. Tar" wrote:
>
> Panty Christ is not Negativland, just released on Seeland (Negativland's
> label), so you're argument here is kinda confusing. PantyChrist was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's a nice way to say it. I totally s....ed it up!
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:30:03 -0500
From: "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
At 06:17 PM 3/25/99 -0600, Joseph S. Zitt wrote:
>I'm confused: whose policy was it to enforce which copyright laws on what,
>and why was this a problem?
The way I understand it, Asphodel wanted to reserve the right to sue any
artist who sampled the work for copywrite infringement without needing to
notify or get the consent of Ostertag/Yoshihide/Bond. Asphodel considered
it a normal policy, Ostertag disagreed. (For good reason, would be quite a
contradiction coming from someone whose work is made from samples.)
So the release went to a more copywrite friendly label, Seeland.
- ---
Peace Hugs and Unity Jason J. Tar
W. W. J. D?
(What would Jason Do?)
http://pilot.msu.edu/user/tarjason
ICQ@13792120
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:56:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Soup/PantyChrist.
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, Jason J. Tar wrote:
> The way I understand it, Asphodel wanted to reserve the right to sue any
> artist who sampled the work for copywrite infringement without needing to
> notify or get the consent of Ostertag/Yoshihide/Bond. Asphodel considered
> it a normal policy, Ostertag disagreed. (For good reason, would be quite a
> contradiction coming from someone whose work is made from samples.)
Gotcha. I can see both points of view.
(...and the compulsive proofreader in me insists that it's "copyright", as
in "right to copy".)
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:50:44 -0800
From: s~Z <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Horace Tapscott
http://www.latimes.com/CNS_DAYS/990324/t000026464.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:30:58 PST
From: "Douglas Clarke" <dugc@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Negativland
>From: Peter Risser <risser@goodnews.net>
>Patrice, you've been in a particularly foul mood lately. I would dare
to
>say that most people would not know who Negativland were without this
>record, but I've been into them since Escape from Noise, and many of my
>friends and colleagues since far before that. Admittedly, a
tremendously
>small subset of the general populace, but I bet many of the
musicophiles on
>this list had heard of them long before as well.
To tell you guys the truth, I've been aware of Negativland for several
years, and I've never heard of this U2 thing. But I always have strange
selective hearing.
Doug
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:45:05 PST
From: "Douglas Clarke" <dugc@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: PantyChrist.
>From: "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu>
>The way I understand it, Asphodel wanted to reserve the right to sue
any
>artist who sampled the work for copywrite infringement without needing
to
>notify or get the consent of Ostertag/Yoshihide/Bond. Asphodel
considered
>it a normal policy, Ostertag disagreed. (For good reason, would be
quite a
>contradiction coming from someone whose work is made from samples.)
>
>So the release went to a more copywrite friendly label, Seeland.
>
Okay, I don't know if anyone cares anymore, but I got a different story.
This one was right from Justin's (lucious) lips. They weren't even going
to make an album until the owner of Apostal (or was it another label?),
who saw them at the Great American music hall and loved them, begged
them to for his label. So, they made it, but by the time it was
finished, he had sold ownership of the label to more conservative minds.
Everyone at the newly bought label hated it, so the old owner tried to
find another label that would put it out. So, eventually it came out on
Seeland.
I know, the first explanation seems more convincing, but maybe we can
compromise with the reason being a funny mixture of the two??
- -Doug
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:52:10 -0500
From: Michael Witt <mwitt@schilli.com>
Subject: Spending some quality time with Big John
The Elbo Room is a fun place to see a show, and I'm excited about Vandermark
playing with John Patton this Saturday in Chicago. Can anyone elaborate on
the Zorn-relation and recommend an album other than SPILLANE? The attached
is the Critic's Choice blurb in the Chicago Reader. If there's interest
here, I'll review the concert on Sunday.
- --Mike
> ---
> BIG JOHN PATTON
> Saturday 3/27, Elbo Room
> The pantheon of 60s organ heroes cleaved into two distinct camps: the more
> conservative wing stuck like glue to the tried-and-true devices of blues
> and balladry that were the mainspring of soul jazz, while the more
> progressive types made forays into modal and free jazz. Big John Patton's
> 1968 trio outing Understanding (Blue Note), featuring Harold Alexander's
> expressionist tenor saxophone, connected as easily with the screaming free
> scene as with grease-streaked, hot-skillet soul jazz. Patton was no
> dabbler when it came to the latter--for proof, check out Let 'Em Roll, his
> funky record with guitarist Grant Green and vibist Bobby Hutcherson, or
> his Crescent City strut on Boogaloo and Memphis to New York Spirit. But he
> could swing both ways, plunging deep into harmonic territory tested by
> only a few daring organ-grinders (like Larry Young) and surfacing into
> southern-fried blues. Since he returned to recording and performing in '83
> after a long hiatus, Patton has made some equally adventurous music,
> including a cameo on Spillane, the montage-based record by New York outcat
> saxophonist John Zorn. Zorn returned the favor, playing on Patton's 1993
> release, Blue Planet Man (Evidence), and on the excellent quartet disc
> Minor Swing (DIW) from '95. At this show Patton will be accompanied by the
> crack "Heroes of the Hammond" team, Robert Shy on drums and George Freeman
> on guitar; guest saxophonist Ken Vandermark will reach into the impressive
> bag of blues and soul tricks he's collected with Baxter and the Crown
> Royals. Saturday, 10 PM, Elbo Room, 2871 North Lincoln; 312-409-0099 or
> 773-549-5549. --John Corbett
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:51:23 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spending some quality time with Big John
In a message dated 3/26/99 8:56:16 AM, mwitt@schilli.com writes:
<< Can anyone elaborate on the Zorn-relation and recommend an album other than
SPILLANE? >>
from Patton's 60's work, check out Blue John (Blue Note). from his more recent
comeback period, try Minor Swing (DIW), a great quartet session from '94 with
Zorn.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 02:49:41 +1100
From: Peter Hollo <raven@fourplay.com.au>
Subject: Re: Negativland
Not convinced that nobody would have heard of Negativland if not for the
U2 story. They do over-milk it but nevertheless it is important in the
realm of legal rights of sample-based music and so on, not to mention
the right to satire.
Another collage/sample based group worth mentioning are Stock, Hausen
and Walkman. Sortof English equivalent of Negativland; they don't have a
U2 story to make them well-known, yet they have a big world-wide
following. I guess admittedly I do think they're better than
Negativland, but that's just personal preference. Very clever stuff,
often rather pointedly humourous, but it works, and there's sooo much
going on a lot of the time that you don't get sick of it. I recommend in
particular the most recent offering "Oh My Bag!", as well as side
project Dummy Run's latest (forget the name), also on their label Hot
Air.
Peter.
- --
Peter Hollo raven@fourplay.com.au http://www.fourplay.com.au/me.html
FourPlay - Eclectic Electric String Quartet
http://www.fourplay.com.au
Raven: experimental electronic
http://www.fourplay.com.au/sound.html
"Of course, dance music can be a music where you lie on your back and
your brain cells dance" -Michael Karoli of Can, quoted in Wire mag.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #634
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