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Zorn List Digest        Saturday, March 6 1999        Volume 02 : Number 611



In this issue:
-
       first cobra
       Re: gtr oblq
       Video Installation in Ventura CA
       Re: Bad CDs
       recent goodies
       Bad CDs
       re: bad cds
       San Francisco record shops
       Re: Bad CDs
       Re: gtr oblq
       Tiny Bell Trio
       Re: recent goodies - XTC
       What about John ?
       Re: Bad CDs/ CD-r recording

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:51:56 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: first cobra

Wow, I feel like I've been initiated.  Last night I saw my first Cobra,
performed by the very capable Cincinnati Cobra Ensemble, a group of varying
number (last night 10) musicians who get together periodically to perform
the piece.  All of a sudden the music on the CDs makes a lot more sense.
We loved the way the piece was competitive and cooperative all at the same
time, the quick changes that the group pulled off, and the wide range of
sounds, from extreme delicacy to a wall of sound.  I strongly encourage
everyone on the list who hasn't seen a live Cobra to take any opportunity.
It's great fun.

The Cincinnati Cobra Ensemble plays again next week.  If there's anyone in
the area who wants more info, email me privately.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 10:04:52 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gtr oblq

At 03:09 AM 3/6/99 EST, [e-mail] wrote:
>does any1 know anything about this knitting factory cd release featuring
>vernon reid, david torn, and elliot sharp? i'm thinkin, w/this lineup how can
>u go wrong?

The first piece has a plodding drum beat which leaves a very bad first
impression, but after that it's pretty interesting, lots of guitar
atmospheres, less 'rock' than one might expect.  IMHO, the pieces with drum
machines work least well, but I'm coming mostly from the Torn fan side; I
can take or leave a lot of Sharp's work, and I'm mostly unfamiliar with
Reid, having only heard a CD with him and Frisell a long time ago and not
being very impressed.  The CD is from a concert recording, and although the
audience noise is mostly edited out, it is not a polished product like a
studio recording and has its share of misses as well as hits.  You can
probably tell, overall I was a tad disappointed.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 07:37:39 -0800
From: s~Z <[e-mail]>
Subject: Video Installation in Ventura CA

Ganz Andere

April 23-May 1

a multi-screen video and music installation on the
third floor (the old women's prison) of Ventura
City Hall featuring music by Jeff Kaiser with
Vinny Golia and electronics (soon to be released
on CD!), words and video by Phil Taggart and
Clay Chaplin. More to come...soon...

http://www.jetlink.net/~pfmentum/pfm_3_99.pdf

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 11:26:34 +0000
From: nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

[e-mail] wrote:

> Another solution is to buy a CD burner and make copies of your CD's before the
> bad happens.

This is really a method of last resort.  I have a
decent CD burner, and I've spent quite a bit of
time playing with it, but the copies are
frighteningly distant from the originals, in terms
of sound quality.  Copied CDs lose a lot of detail
and clarity.  I've noticed that the track lengths
can even differ from copy to copy.  There's quite
a bit of study of this on the internet, comparing
different media and whatnot.  (My personal
experience: Maxell discs are better than Sony,
which are better than Fuji.  Burn things at 2x
instead of higher speeds and they will sound
better.)  The idea that a digital copy is perfect
clearly does not apply to music.  Maybe some
electrical engineers can point out why, I would
imagine it has to do with check bits and error control.

I would say you only should be burning copies of
things where you can tolerate bad sound.  Of
course you might not hear the difference, if
you're listening to this stuff through a boombox
or something, but I can definitely tell an
annoying difference on my bottom of the line Sony
CD player.  On my friend's Rotel/Krell/Snell
system, it's enough to make me want to throw the
burner away.

- -Nils

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 13:29:16 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies

I've been bingeing on new CDs lately, and these are some of the more
interesting items I've picked up.

Supersilent 4 (Runegrammophon)
Supersilent is the group hailed as the new Norwegian jazz, and there really
is nothing in common between this and the old Norwegian jazz characterized
by ECM.  Fans of noisy improv with electronics will love it.  The band, a
quartet including drums and trumpet in addition to electronics and
synthesizer, really cooks on this album.  You can read more about them in
the Feb issue of the Wire (with Thaemlitz on the cover), but it's great
stuff, highly recommended.  The drumming is as close as I've ever heard to
breakbeat, and with the complete craziness going on around it, it is
completely wonderful.  Their first album is a 3-cd set (called Supersilent
1-3, go figure), and I'm really looking forward to picking it up.  This is
the best high energy music I've heard in a long time.

Jacques Tremblay, Alibi (Empreintes Digitales)
Continuing my forays into electroacoustic, the Montreal-based Empreintes
Digitales label can usually be counted on for excellent offerings overall.
Even with such fine company, this one excels.  Starting with a 21-minute
piece entitled Heresy, or the Bas-reliefs of dogma, a scary look at all
forms of religious practitioners whose only real religion is themselves,
and continuing through six more pieces for a 78 minute recital, this is a
superb album, which I would highly recommend to anyone wanting to hear
what's new in the field.

Arnold Dreyblatt, The Sound of One String (Table of the Elements)
My first introduction to Dreyblatt, whose name is usually dropped with
Lamonte Young and Tony Conrad as early minimalists who haven't been as well
accepted as Glass and Reich.  I've also been listening to a lot of drone
music lately, and expected this to be in more or less the same category.
Well, it's not, mostly because Dreyblatt's primary explorations took place
on a modified cello which struck with the bow to create overtones.  The
overtones are very interesting, but the continuous pulse underlying almost
all the pieces on this disk is a bit disconcerting.  The album is an
overview of his work from 1979 to 1991, and the best pieces for me are the
most recent, because he's moved away from his cello to a larger group, and
the pulse is gone, leaving a shimmering glow where the harmonics really
come through.

Franz Koglmann & Lee Konitz, We thought about Duke (Hat)
I don't buy much traditional jazz any more, but I've always like Koglmann's
larger ensembles, so I thought I'd try this one.  To my surprise, it's a
smaller ensemble, quartet and quintet, both drummerless.  The quintet
includes Tony Coe (clarinet), Burkhard Stangl (guitar), and Klaus Koch
(bass), and the quartet includes Rudolf Rischel (trombone) and Raoul Herget
(tuba).  The closest comparison for me is the Wheeler-Frisell date Angel
Song on ECM, in that the drummerless groups are more relaxed, more
intimate.  Stangl is more traditional on this album than Frisell (and also
much more traditional than Polwechsel, the only other place I've heard
him).  The sound is superb, and Duke's music is great.  Very nice effort as
well.

THU20, Derde Schijf (Staalplaat)
A five-person electroacoustic improv group including Roel Meelkop and Ios
Smolders (the only two names previously known to me) with a collection of
pieces, some of which were recorded live.  Quiet listening for the most
part, with enough unsettling sounds to keep it from being sleep music.
This is al album where I wonder what everyone does.  It doesn't really
sound like five guys, and other than some treated percussion I haven't
heard anything yet that I could call an instrument.  Much more subtle than,
say, Morphogenesis (the only possible comparison that I could make), but I
find it fascinating.

Justin Bennett, The Mosques of Tanger (Staalplaat)
To explain my fascination with this album I have to confess a certain lack
of worldliness.  Having spent most of my life so far in the American
midwest, I've never heard a call to prayer from a mosque, though I've read
that in many parts of the world this is a natural part of the sonic
environment.  Bennett's 3-inch CD is all field recordings (the opening and
closing quite literally) with very little modification (or at least still
very recognizable).  I was very excited when I got this, and put it on
almost immediately.  We settled back during the opening sounds of birds and
nature at dawn.  But when the calls started, deep voiced, loud, and
multitracked, it got unsettling in a hurry.  One of the more interesting
environmental recordings I've come across.




- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:44:03 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bad CDs

It's also important to remember that recordable CDs are not protected the same
way that commercially made CDs are. Essentially with a recordable CD, you've
got even MORE room for error and damage, because essentially there is no
protective coating on the business-side of the CD. This could also account for
the reported poor quality of 'copying' commercial CDs to recordable CDs.

If you want to 'back up' your LPs and CDs, I recommend MiniDisc.

- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:22:38 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: re: bad cds

In a message dated 3/6/99 1:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> If you want to 'back up' your LPs and CDs, I recommend MiniDisc

i do not. minidisc technology provides a "clearer" recording because it
removes duplicate frequencies. if 2 things sound @ the same freq, 1 gets
removed to save space. they sound "clearer", but only because there is less
information.


criterion info
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/vine/9374


"i am beyond their petty, lying morality..."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:50:09 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail] (David J. Polak)
Subject: San Francisco record shops

Sorry for the off topic post, but I will be in Frisco March 17-22 and need
the names of good record stores. Both CDs and vinyl, jazz and classic rock.
You can e-mail me if you feel this is too off-topic. Thanks in advance.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:47:30 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
>> Another solution is to buy a CD burner and make copies of your
>> CD's before the
>> bad happens.
>
> This is really a method of last resort.  I have a
> decent CD burner, and I've spent quite a bit of
> time playing with it, but the copies are
> frighteningly distant from the originals, in terms
> of sound quality.  Copied CDs lose a lot of detail
> and clarity.  I've noticed that the track lengths
> can even differ from copy to copy.  There's quite
> a bit of study of this on the internet, comparing
> different media and whatnot.  (My personal
> experience: Maxell discs are better than Sony,
> which are better than Fuji.  Burn things at 2x
> instead of higher speeds and they will sound
> better.)  The idea that a digital copy is perfect
> clearly does not apply to music.  Maybe some
> electrical engineers can point out why, I would
> imagine it has to do with check bits and error control.

    My personal experience is that the media you use is
irrelevant. I use only bulk no-name discs, after having tried the
branded stuff, and have never noticed a difference.
    The BIG issue, is how you get your analog audio to your
digital medium. If you use a consumer grade PC Soundcard as your
input, then dont expect pro sound. The A/D converters tend to be very
low quality, and since the thing is mounted inside the relatively
hostile environment of your PC, its prone to pick up lots of junk
along the way. A good way around this, if your card has digital
inputs, is to use the converters on an outboard  DAT or minidisc
deck.  Even Macintosh's, which are much better suited than PC's for
this kind of thing, have  serious I/O issues.
    Once the signal is on your Hard Drive(hopefully a fast SCSI
drive), Its important to maximize the signal levels. The best tool
ive found for this is the WAVES Ultra-maximizer, This is a very
important part of the digital mastering process that is oft-times
overlooked by the home-recordist. The difference between maximized
and un-maximized CD's is really startling.
    The burn speed isn't that important(though Ive yet to try the
new 8x machines) as long as your HD is fast enough to deliver the
neccesary transfer rate without hiccupping. That means turning off
any kind of error correction and thermal recalibration options for
your HD.
    To get a back to more on-topic concerns, I'm more than happy
with the way that my vinyl-CD transfers sound, the ability to remove
scratches and pops(laborious, though it is), has enabled me to enjoy
things that I otherwise would never take off the shelf......Now if I
can only find a 12" X 12" jewel case.......


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:13:17 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gtr oblq

> At 03:09 AM 3/6/99 EST, [e-mail] wrote:
>>does any1 know anything about this knitting factory cd release featuring
>>vernon reid, david torn, and elliot sharp? i'm thinkin, w/this lineup how can
>>u go wrong?
>
> I'm mostly unfamiliar with
> Reid, having only heard a CD with him and Frisell a long time ago and not
> being very impressed.


    Run do not walk, to your nearest cut-out bin and find
Mandance or Barbecue Dog by Ronald shannon Jackson and the Decoding
Society. Electric jazz with a strong harmolodic bent.  Vernons' solo
album "Mistaken Identity is also very good, sort of heavy-metal meets
hip-hop.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:06:07 -0700
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tiny Bell Trio

Just a quick note. I saw Dave Douglas' Tiny Bell Trio last nite in Ann
Arbor. This was the 2nd time. As always Jim Black was supercool. Douglas was
fine. My memory though tells me that I liked them better a year ago, but I
couldn't articulate why. My big comment is on Brad Shepik. My wife disagrees
with me, but I thought that while his guitar work was fine, he didn't really
add anything to the mix (except occassionally) and mostly just seemed to
fill in the empty space. Now maybe that's all he's supposed to do, but I
would've prefered some interesting and unexpected musical bits. It is jazz
after all. Anyone have any feelings on Shepik?

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:44:20 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: recent goodies - XTC

The new Xtc album  - Apple Venus Vol. 1 is an acoustic/orchestral album of
most interesting pop music.  The first piece, River of Orchids, was used by
Harold Budd to teach cyclical song Budd was lecturing in Arizona. He had a
post at a university in Arizona and he was using it as an example of modern
composing.  Anyway, an excellent album.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 00:57:18 +0100
From: "Rob Allaert" <[e-mail]>
Subject: What about John ?

Hi JazZorns,

What happened to John Zorn? Isn't it unimaginable that he would take a
break. I'm sure he's busy doing something? Is he once again into jazz or
into classical music? Is he recording? I'm convinced someone on this list
must have a clue. It's been too long since "the man himself" was discussed
on this list! Agreed? And what about Joey Baron, Erik Friedlander, Dave
Douglas, Marc Ribot, Anthony Coleman or Greg Cohen, what are they up to?

Rob, Belgium


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:26:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bad CDs/ CD-r recording

In a message dated 3/6/99 3:56:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

> > [e-mail] wrote:
>  >
>  >> Another solution is to buy a CD burner and make copies of your
>  >> CD's before the
>  >> bad happens.
>  >
>  > This is really a method of last resort.  I have a
>  > decent CD burner, and I've spent quite a bit of
>  > time playing with it, but the copies are
>  > frighteningly distant from the originals, in terms
>  > of sound quality.  Copied CDs lose a lot of detail
>  > and clarity.  I've noticed that the track lengths
>  > can even differ from copy to copy.

This is not possible.  My guess is that you have some software problems.  I
would assume you are using a well known "ripper" or other type of software
with extracting capabilities. Whatever you do, you cannot try and make copies
in "real time"- you will definitely get glitches and skewed track times.  You
must copy it to your hard drive first.  You didnt mention the process you use,
so I'll stop right here.

>  > There's quite
>  > a bit of study of this on the internet, comparing
>  > different media and whatnot.  (My personal
>  > experience: Maxell discs are better than Sony,
>  > which are better than Fuji.  Burn things at 2x
>  > instead of higher speeds and they will sound
>  > better.)

Some people have argued that the laser burns more accurately while burning at
higher speeds.  I have not noticed any difference between 1, 2 or 4x.  As far
is different types of media, the only difference I've ever noticed is that
some brands wont play in some CD players or CD rom drives, and some of the
older brands- such as the gold surface ones- are very prone to flaking.  I've
had excellent results with Mitsui silvers.

>  > The idea that a digital copy is perfect
>  > clearly does not apply to music.  Maybe some
>  > electrical engineers can point out why, I would
>  > imagine it has to do with check bits and error control.

Copying music digitally is just like copying anything else digitally-- youre
just copying bits.  You either copy them accurately or you dont.  If you dont
for some reason, the result will most likely not be something you could
describe as duller, brighter, etc, but you will hear obvious "glitches" or
other digital-related noise, that does not happen in the analog domain.

>      The BIG issue, is how you get your analog audio to your
>  digital medium. If you use a consumer grade PC Soundcard as your
>  input, then dont expect pro sound. The A/D converters tend to be very
>  low quality, and since the thing is mounted inside the relatively
>  hostile environment of your PC, its prone to pick up lots of junk
>  along the way. A good way around this, if your card has digital
>  inputs, is to use the converters on an outboard  DAT or minidisc
>  deck.  Even Macintosh's, which are much better suited than PC's for
>  this kind of thing, have  serious I/O issues.


Definitely dont use a factory soundcard!  Another option, if you dont have a
soundcard with a digital input (the good ones start at around $425), is the
new Opcode DATport, which is a USB interface.  Its around $199, and they also
have another model which has digital and analog inputs, and I dont know anyone
whos used that model, but I would guess that the A>D converters are pretty
good.

>      Once the signal is on your Hard Drive(hopefully a fast SCSI
>  drive), Its important to maximize the signal levels. The best tool
>  ive found for this is the WAVES Ultra-maximizer, This is a very
>  important part of the digital mastering process that is oft-times
>  overlooked by the home-recordist. The difference between maximized
>  and un-maximized CD's is really startling.

I have an IDE drive, and have not yet had any problems burning.  I just cant
have any other programs running at the same time...  As far as maximizing, I
take it you mean "normalizing"?  You are changing the bits here, and I would
say only do it if your wave file is severely low in level.  It should never be
necessary when copying a cd.   Some software I use/recommend: Sonic Foundry's
SoundForge, has excellent editing/processing features, and I've had lots of
luck extracting and burning using their CD Achitect plug in.  Another good
program for extracting (ripping) or only doing cd copies is Goldenhawk's
CDRWin (freeware).
Sorry to go on and on, but Ive taken a serious interest in this.  Feel free to
email me to discuss it further.
- -Jody

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #611
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