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Zorn List Digest         Friday, March 5 1999         Volume 02 : Number 609



In this issue:
-
       Re: Bad CDs
       Re: Cd playing troubles
       Re: Bad CDs
       cd troubles-Carl Stalling
       Re: Cd playing troubles
       CD troubles -- CD players
       Re: CD troubles -- CD players
       Re: Bad CDs
       Re: Bad CDs
       Re: Bad CDs
       Re: Brotzmann/10tet
       Re: Bad CDs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:16:05 -0800
From: zoyd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

Patrice sez:

I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I
find
the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic
feelings about vinyls.

I sez:

I agree Patrice. I, too grew up with vinyl and good riddance. Back in
those days it seemed every tenth album i bought i was returning for one
reason or another...it was warped, too much surface noise, the grooves
weren't centered (check out the second side of the first roxy music
album for this fine defect....). Not to mention the quick deterioation
of the inner tracks.....
I've bought over 1500 cds so far over 12 something years, both new and
used and have yet to return one....

it's disconcerting about this PDO stuff (i have about a $1000 worth of
PDO discs) but only one shows any signs of "bronzing". And so far no
deteriotion in sound qualitiy on that one. It's nice that Philips is
offering to replace these discs....but i bet they dont have an easy time
finding a new copy of "Live at Bar Maldoror" by Current
93....sigh....not that they are gonna look that hard....

zoyd

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:36:10 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Jonathan Mooneyham)
Subject: Re: Cd playing troubles

>On Thu, 4 Mar 1999  SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
>
>> i have never had this problem w/cds. when they 1st came out i heard that cds
>> were good 4 about 10 yrs. i have plenty of cds that r older than that
>>and they
>> play just fine.
>
>ditto.
>
>i only have one CD (out of hundreds)
>that is causing me trouble and it's kind
>of strange. the Carl Stalling Project
>disc (volume 1) has been really troublesome
>lately. i can reproduce it on two different
>CD players and the CD ROM on my computer.
>the first track plays ok, no problems,
>but the rest are overcome by a clicking
>sound that gets louder with each track.
>and, i can't seem to thumb through tracks.
>the CD player won't let me select track N
>or even ff. it just sort of "hangs" there
>(i can actually hear the disc stop spinning)
>and won't play. the only way is to just
>let it play straight through. it's really
>very curious. the disc itself looks fine.
>no scratches, no pin holes, no oxidization,
>nothing. so i'm at a loss as to understand
>why this is happening. anyone else have
>the same experience with this disc?

Yep, exactly the same problem (gorgeous 1st pressing Looney Tunes disc
label), but it had it from the git-go - wouldn't play on certain machines.
I think it's due to the running length of the cd - 77:53, a pretty stuffed
disc, particularly for early '90s cd technology...
>
>as an aside, i remember when this disc
>came out apparently the promo edition
>(nicer looking disc label art) got into the
>market. i suspect mine might be one of
>those, but never really looked into it.
>
The snazzy disc label was first pressings only, AFAIK - WTF.

I like how this thread managed to worm its way into some weentsy Zorn
content (via JZ liner notes on CS cd)...

Jon M.
FATE, Discorporated



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:39:04 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, zoyd wrote:

> deteriotion in sound qualitiy on that one. It's nice that Philips is
> offering to replace these discs....but i bet they dont have an easy time
> finding a new copy of "Live at Bar Maldoror" by Current
> 93....sigh....not that they are gonna look that hard....

practically all Current 93 is in print,
including "Live at Bar Maldoror".
in fact, he has been re-issuing quite
a bit of the back catalog over the
last year.

there shouldn't be a problem in replacing
that disc.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:28:59 -0800
From: Zorn <[e-mail]>
Subject: cd troubles-Carl Stalling

regarding the carl stalling project...
i have the exact same problem with this disc.....also the only one out of
hundreds.......

odd..


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:04:29 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Cd playing troubles

On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Jonathan Mooneyham wrote:

> Yep, exactly the same problem (gorgeous 1st pressing Looney Tunes disc
> label), but it had it from the git-go - wouldn't play on certain machines.
> I think it's due to the running length of the cd - 77:53, a pretty stuffed
> disc, particularly for early '90s cd technology...

hmm, but Ryko's Mission of Burma
collection (from 1988, this is before
all those re-issues) disc is 80 minutes
and have had no trouble with it.
in fact i'm listening to it right now.

> The snazzy disc label was first pressings only, AFAIK - WTF.

it's such a shame about this clicking
thing, because it is such a beautiful design.
and, of course, the music is excellent
too. this disc did play just fine
when i first bought it all those years
ago.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:16:48 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: CD troubles -- CD players

I'm not a gearhead and have only a passing interest in these things.

But the comment about getting cheap CD players and replacing them
caught my eye because I've mostly just used CD walkmans on my system
(currently low-end Nakamichi receiver and tape player, Infinity
reference series speakers, and, the oldest component, my Pioneer
turntable from 1977).

This was because I read a long time ago that Cd players basically all
sound the same.

Most of you may know this already, but it's not true. I just bought a
Harman/Kardon 5-CD changer (FL 8350) with 16-bit digital to analog
technology. This is not high end, $280 on sale at Circuit City, but a
step above the basic item. The difference is not minute, in certain
places. It is dramatic from start to finish. Broader dynamic range,
more dynamic bass and highs, better imagining. Much more lush and a
real delight. (Although the loading mechanism is noisy.)

And not only that. Prompted by another post on the subject of CD
troubles, I just pulled out my Vasconcelos "Bush Dance" and popped it
in. On my CD walkman, it stopped almost immediately since the missing
flake was on the first cut -- it could not skip past that track
(actually the first three tracks, it turns out). But with the
Harman/Kardon, it never actually stops. It skips intolerably where the
flakes are but I can punch it forward to the fourth track and then it
plays just fine. Hurray! I've got two-thirds of this out-of-print disc
back! I suspect I'll find the same with the other two (including a
beloved Frank Lowe).

Otherwise, I've had no problems with my 1,200 or so CDs (I had a stoned
late-night freak out in Florida that they were all going to start
flaking). No other aging problems. I have another 1,000 or so LPs, from
pre- to early-CD era. And aside from the affection for the LP sleeves,
I largely agree with PATRICE. LPs wear out and they have surface noise.
The same gremlins that steal the odd sock and add to the pile of dirty
dishes while I'm out sneak scratches onto my LPs -- last time I played
LP X, it was beautiful through that quiet section. I carefully returned
it to the inner sleeve and then the outer sleeve. Next time I slide it
on the Pioneer, there's a big TCHK! ... TCHK!... TCHK!...

I love my LPs but eagerly replace the most played ones with CDs when
available. I know I should get a new turntable, there would be a
dramatic difference, but for now I'd rather spend the money on CDs. ...
As for the live music argument -- this ain't no argument. It's like
comparing movies and live theater. Different mediums, different
experiences, different functions. If John Zorn is in town, I'm not
going to sit home and listen to one of his CDs. Recorded music is for
those times there's no gig worth checking out, which accounts for more
of the time. Recorded music is for your convenience. Always on hand.
I'll sit (or dance) to live music I would never purchase. And the best
live music, given the reasonable location for sound, tops the best
recording of it beyond pure audio quality. For me, any way.

Martin

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:36:23 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD troubles -- CD players

On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Martin Wisckol wrote:

> Most of you may know this already, but it's not true. I just bought a
> Harman/Kardon 5-CD changer (FL 8350) with 16-bit digital to analog
> technology. This is not high end, $280 on sale at Circuit City, but a
> step above the basic item. The difference is not minute, in certain
> places. It is dramatic from start to finish. Broader dynamic range,
> more dynamic bass and highs, better imagining. Much more lush and a
> real delight. (Although the loading mechanism is noisy.)

the interesting thing about this is
i have a number of CD players --a cheapie
portable and two deck units. both are
considered in the mid-range for "audiophile".
one is a Sony ES model and the other
is a NAD. very nice players. both have
trouble with this Stalling disc. it's
a real mystery.

but it's also true that some discs
the portable flakes out on can be played
with no troubel on these other players.

vinyl vs. CD is a strange argument as
they are practically apples and oranges.
each has their own place and i like
both. people who take an either-or
stance generally give me the impression
they view it like religion. whatEVER,
it's just a medium. the MUSIC is what
counts!

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:34:59 +0100 (MET)
From: FJG_Lamerikx <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

Patrice wrote in reply to Bjoern:

> I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I find
> the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic
> feelings about vinyls.

[...]

> You know, it is called manufacturing errors and it happens once in a
> while. Buying a brand new (and expansive) LP import and realizing that
> by playing it in store it was already scratched, this never happened to
> you? And wobbly records, never seen one? And distorsion (specially in
> the region closer to the center) after only 10 listenings, never
> experienced it?
>
> Yes, digital technology has some imperfections, but you will have a
> hard time to convince somebody that vinyl is the answer...
>
> > people get your old turntables in your living rooms again, that is the
> > only chance......
>
> Until nobody will be able to afford one...

There are a number of reasons why I will favor vinyl:

1. I don't have any high-end equipment, and my Technics SL1200 turntable is
   easily the best piece of equipment I have - this means that vinyl in general
   sounds better on my equipment than CDs.
2. Some of the music I'm into is not available on CD, or only at a much later
   stage. Where are you going to find CD releases of all the techno, drum'n'bass
   and other dance-related 12"-es, for example? Besides, I think the CDS format
   is rather silly, so I'd prefer to buy vinyl 12"-es any day.
3. Some of the old music I'm trying to find has not been re-issued on CD. Ever
   saw a CD release of Les Baxter's "The Dunwich Horror" (I'm hoping that
   someone now gives me the catalogue number for the CD re-issue...)? Record
   labels are catching up, but this has only started a few years ago.
4. A lot of CD re-issues sound terrible, especially when compared to the vinyl
   originals. This is especially true of the late 80s - early 90s re-issues.
   Re-issues of the old James Bond soundtracks, for example, are horrible, both
   in sound and in packaging. What greater delight than to track down an
   original James Bond soundtrack from the 1960s?
5. Some of the artists I'm interested in (Diskono, V/Vm, audio.nl) won't release
   anything on CD. So if I got rid of my turntable I wouldn't be able at all
   to enjoy their music.
6. In general, vinyl is cheaper than CDs (at least here in Holland it is).
7. The esthetics of vinyl and all that surrounds it are far more attractive
   than the non-existing esthetics of CDs.
8. I'm a DJ every now and then, and I would have a hard time if I had to stick
   to CDs for this. For example, I can find all these old disco records which
   I use as DJ tools very cheaply on flea markets - now, I could also just put
   on a CD sampler of disco music, but where's the creativity in that?

The interest in vinyl is increasing again. This explains why Columbia releases
all the Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock stuff on excellent and very cheap vinyl
editions, and Blue Note does the same for their 60s catalogue. The bins in the
dance department of my local record store are bursting with new vinyl every
week. I'll stick to it as long as I can!

Frankco.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 02:58:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

In a message dated 3/5/99 2:37:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

> A lot of CD re-issues sound terrible, especially when compared to the vinyl
>     originals. This is especially true of the late 80s - early 90s re-
issues.

this is most likely due 2 the mastering techniques used on the recording. back
in the day when vinyl was king, mastering was an artform. track order had 2 b
planned out carefully and eq was regarded in terms of the fidelity of the
systems of the day. now the sources 4 mastering r primarily digital (although
i know @ least 1 dinosaur jr record was mastered from cassette) and for eq its
basically "boost @ 100 hz, boost @ 10khz, next!" so if something was mastered
for vinyl, it makes sense that as a cd it would not sound as good as a cd that
was matered 2 b a cd. most of this doesn't really matter tho cuz we all know
john zorn kicks ass (token zorn content).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:41:43 +0100 (MET)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

PATRICE wrote:
> I grew up with vinyls and I am happy to get rid of them (as soon as I find
> the CD reissue). Yes I miss the larger sleeves, but I have no romantic
> feelings about vinyls.

well, this is a discussion i had with alot of "older" people who grew up
with vinyl. BUT: nowadays there are lots of better turntables than 20
years ago. nowadays people know alot more about how to handle an LP to
have it for a lifetime. there is still the easy technology of washing your
vinyl which in most cases shows excellent results.
there are alot of LPs i would never ever replace by a cd. for example the
new rerelease of ERIC DOLPHY`s OUT TO LUNCH sounds so much better than the
cd version......you will never ever listen to that cd again when you heard
this new LP-version.
i think this "i have no romantic feelings about vinyl" thing is just an
aspect of what you call "blind believing in new technologies", even if in
the end there are enough reasons not to believe in that technology...
do not misunderstand me. i am far from saying that cd sucks and lp is
heaven...but: i dont believe in the idea of replacing all the lps by cds
whenever releases are available. i think it has to be judged from case to
case... there are alot of old lps that sound way better than the new
rereleases, so sure i buy the lps. there are also cds that sound better
than the lps (not many but quite a few) and sure i buy these on cd, also
there is alot of stuff you will never ever get as an lp or that has never
been out on lp (tzadik stuff, just as an example)..sure i get these on
cd.... i think that a mixed system of media is the best problem to solve
the problem. at least in the end (in 15 years) after all the cds you
bought nowadays are dead and gone, you will have some nice, maybe a bit
noisy vinyls left.


BJOERN


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:49:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Ronald Martin Carrier <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Brotzmann/10tet

Caleb Deupree inquired:
> At 11:25 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Jason Caulfield Bivins wrote:
> >Brotz is doing some shows with the 10tet in May. I know that they're
> >playing Victoriaville and also Chicago's Empty Bottle Fest (where he's
> >also playing with Die Like A Dog). I'm pretty sure the lineup is the
> >same, the one exception being that Toshinori Kondo is taking McPhee's
> >spot.
>
> Any online info (schedules, etc.) about the Empty Bottle Festival?

http://www.emptybottle.com/jazz/jfest99.html

Later...

- --
         Ronald M. Carrier -- rcarrier@{suba.com,hecky.acns.nwu.edu}
                       http://www.suba.com/~rcarrier/
              "If one does nothing but listen to the new music,
        everything else drifts, goes away, frays."--Donald Barthelme


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:03:12 -0700
From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bad CDs

>You know, it is called manufacturing errors and it happens once in a
>while. Buying a brand new (and expansive) LP import and realizing that
>by playing it in store it was already scratched, this never happened to
>you? And wobbly records, never seen one? And distorsion (specially in
>the region closer to the center) after only 10 listenings, never
>experienced it?
>
>Yes, digital technology has some imperfections, but you will have a
>hard time to convince somebody that vinyl is the answer...
>
>> people get your old turntables in your living rooms again, that is the
>> only chance......
>
>Until nobody will be able to afford one...
>
>    Patrice.

Look, by no means am I saying that vinyl is not without it's own set of
problems. I recently bought one of the Coltrane re-releases on "special"
vinyl only to find it filled with pops, and unable to return as I bought it
on an out of town trip. And I'd have to say that in general I have less
problems with new CDs. However, that given, I have done blind sound
comparisons between the same disc as both CD and vinyl, only and
consistently to find that the vinyl sounds better. Furthermore, as someone
who spends far too much money on music, (and having done so for many, many
years) I want to know that I'll be able to listen to the purchase 10, 20
years down the road. And I'm sceptical  that I'm going to be able to do
this. The original poster to this thread (whose name I seem to have
misplaced, sorry) is by no means the only person with this problem. I have
more than one friend who now has bad CDs. I think the only reason I've
lucked out as much as I have, is that I held on to buying vinyl, until
literally, I had no choice. I even went to Landmark records offices in
Berkely once on a trip there to pick up a vinyl Charlie Rouse record, a
decision I don't regret. (I also got to chat with Orrin Keepnews which was
kind of cool). And as I mentioned in the previous post, the whole "cost
scam" has me incensed. Has anyone heard what happened to that suit that
somebody started against the industry a few years back alleging price-fixing?

yours in zornocity --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #609
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