ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v02.n376

Internet Message Format | 1998-05-24 | 22KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #376
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest         Monday, May 25 1998         Volume 02 : Number 376



In this issue:
-
       Re: Circular Breathing
       Masada/Bar Kokhba questions
       re: Yo Miles
       Re: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions
       Re: Yo Miles
       RE: Circular breathing
       Dave Douglas
       serial music & why Zorn
       re: Julie Tippetts
       Re: serial music & why Zorn
       information about brandon ross 'the overflow'
       Re: information about brandon ross 'the overflow'
       Re: serial music & why Zorn

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:57:19 -0500
From: "Eric C. Honour, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Circular Breathing

>Right, but Evan Parker does more than just keeping the air column
>uninterrupted
>for few minutes. Circular breathing is an integral part of his way to playing
>the soprano.
>
>In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a shrilling note held
>for few minutes).
>
>    Patrice.
>
>- -
>Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:01:33 -0700
>From: [e-mail] (Douglas Tapia)
>Subject: Re: Circular breathing
>

>Gosh, someone's bitter, eh?  I'm personally not impressed by circular
>breathing either _UNLESS_ it serves a musical purpose, eg. forward motion
>within an improvisition, building of tension, etc.  I don't gather from
>context of the quote that the fasination was so much with the _technique_
>of circular breathing so much as it's inclusion within Zorn's
>"otherworldly" playing.
>

See now, that's exactly what I did NOT get from the context of the original
post (or of the post that talked about Parker's circular breathing last
week).  Instead of saying something along the lines of "man, the way [he]
circular-breathed was incredible:  it just kept building the tension and
intensity," the posts just said "wow, and they circular breathed."
Patrice's comment above says more about what Parker's up to.  Not just that
he can circular breathe but that he uses it in some musical fashion.

>Does the fact that Zorn uses a particular technique weaken his stature as a
>player in your estimation?  If not, why this fixation on an otherwise
>inocent remark about a simple technique.

God, no.  I love his playing.  The "fixation" reflects the fact that I find
it awfully fatuous to admire the use of one particular extended technique
just as a technique.  If someone uses a technique particularly musically,
that's completely a different story.  My point was that Kenny G fans are
renowned for going crazy when he circular breathes.  Not because of what
he's playing, but because he can do this cool trick.  The posts I read here
seemed to be saying the same thing.  I find that annoying because I think
it gets away from what's really important (to me) -- the music.

In western music there are many
>techniques that have been so overused that they might be considered by some
>to be trite, but they are just techniques, incapabale of being intrinsiclly
>good or bad.
>
>So again, we are left with the question of context.  And it is, after all,
>context that defines the value of a musical statement[snip]

I agree and that was my point.  It's not that I consider circular breathing
to be trite, but it IS now standard.  Let's get away from being amazed that
people can do it and get on to an appreciation of what they're doing with
it.

>>BTW, yes I can and do circular breathe, so I'm not just blowing smoke here.
>
>This sounds like the standard academic position that "if I can do it, it
>must not be really that impressive."

Interesting take on academics.  It's more saying that I can do it and thus
I know from personal experience what is involved in it.  Based on that
experience, I do not find the technique itself impressive.  What is being
said musically is much more important.  THAT'S what I would call the
"standard academic position."

>Or perhaps, if you have something of value to say using said technique.

Exactly.

>>
>>Concentrating on the music and ignoring the athletics,
>>Eric
>>
>But the athletics serve a purpose.  (Bird wouldn't be Bird and Trane
>wouldn't be Trane without them)  The trick is to transend the pedestrian
>conception of  "isolated" technical mastery and put all your various bags
>'o trick to work in service of the music.

I agree and I play very athletic music myself.  But the point is the MUSIC.
The fact that Bird and Trane could both do amazing things on their horns in
terms of technique pales beside the music they made with that technique.

Eric

- --------------------------
Eric C. Honour, Jr.
Composer * Saxophonist * Graphic Designer
MMus (Saxophone Performance and Composition)
Northwestern University
[e-mail]
- --------------------------
The United States has never lost a war in which mules were used.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT
From: D Royko <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions

I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I
apologize for the repeat.

I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were
possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition.

Four questions:

1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I
believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track.
Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any
way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set?

2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology
"Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar
Kokhba, or is it a different version/take?

3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting
Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is
it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW?

4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music
(Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this
accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc?
What else is on the disc?

Thanks,

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: leon lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Yo Miles

what was said:

From: "M.A. Piper" <[e-mail]>
Subject: YO MILES!

Hi all,

I have just updated the Henry Kaiser website with the liner notes from the
forthcoming YO MILES!, an album of Miles Davis interpretations by Henry
and Wadada Leo Smith. Included in the notes is "Procession of the Great
Ancestry," a beautiful piece of poetry by Mr. Smith, and a great essay
by Enrico Merlin, noted Davis authority.

is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels
cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc.  is the poetry by l.smith or
is it h.smith, his wife who is a poet?  if it is, when it is available. if
not, what is the rumored release that i'm talking about?  anyone?

queries:
what is Human Feel up to?  what was the audience reception of Milford
Graves opening for Sonic Youth?  is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass
remixes?  is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs?  so many
questions...  also, can anyone refer me to some serevino gazelloni?  or
any other flute recordings, readings, transcriptions etc etc.

thanks
leon

listening to 'interboogieology' -- what about this amrta contreras?  who
is she?



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:34:08 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada/Bar Kokhba questions

    Hi Dave,

On Fri, 22 May 1998 19:44:32 EDT  D Royko wrote:
>
> I posted this a few days ago, and I don't think it ever made it. If it did, I
> apologize for the repeat.
>
> I'm new to the list (though not so new to JZ's music), so these questions were
> possibly covered some time ago, and if so, sorry for the repitition.
>
> Four questions:
>
> 1- I purchased Bar Kokhba immediately upon its release. Soon after, I read (I
> believe in rmb) that a second version was issued that differed in one track.
> Is this accurate, and if so, what exactly is the difference? And, is there any
> way to tell the difference (visually) between the two versions of the set?

We would have to download the files on a computer drive and compare them :-).

> 2- Is the version of "Bikkurim" that appears on the various artists anthology
> "Festival of Lights" (Six Degrees/Island) the same version that appears on Bar
> Kokhba, or is it a different version/take?
>
> 3- Similar question with "Ziphim" from the "Klezmer '93" album (Knitting
> Factory): Is this a live version unique to that CD (if so, how is it?), or is
> it a track pulled from Masada "3" on DIW?

It can't be the same because KLEZMER 1993 was released in 1993 and GIMEL was
recorded in 1994. Also, one version is 7:06 minutes long, and the one GIMEL
is 9:17.

> 4- I understand that a CD called "Zattere Alle Deriva" on the More Music
> (Italy) label contains an alternate take of (Masada #3's) "Ziphim". Is this
> accurate? If so, how is this take, and how might one get a copy of this disc?
> What else is on the disc?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

195 - ZATTERE ALLA DERIVA: various artists

  This record features John Zorn & Masada, Die Knoedel, Iva Bittova, Lingua
  Franca & Val Resia Ensemble, Quartetto Vocale Giovanna Marini, Pascal
  Comelade & Bel Canto Orquestra, Phil Minton & Veryan Weston, Fred Frith &
  Bob Ostertag, B-Shops for the Poor, Rale, Makam, Amy Denio, Boris Kovac &
  Ritual Nova Ensemble.

  John Zorn plays on one track with Masada:

    2/ Abidan                                   (Zorn)                   6:51

    Recorded by Jim Anderson at Power Station, New York City on June 22, 1994

  John Zorn: alto; Joey Baron: drums; Greg Cohen: bass; Dave Douglas: trumpet.

    1995 - More Music (Italy), MOMus 003 (CD)

  Note: the Masada track is an outtake from a Masada studio session (it was a
  second take previously unreleased).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:13:20 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Yo Miles

leon lee wrote:

> is this YO MILES! the same project that is the 70's miles tribute w/ nels
> cline, kaiser, rova sax 4, leo smith etc etc.

Yes.  Due out July or later on Shanachie, 2 CD.

> what is Human Feel up to?

Not much... all of the members are keeping so busy with other projects that HF
is on a back burner right now...

>  what was the audience reception of Milford
> Graves opening for Sonic Youth?

Doesn't happen until June 8.  I'll be seeing Milford tonight in a quartet with
Charles Gayle, Kidd Jordan and William Parker... chewy!

>  is there pt.2 of panthalassa w/ drum/bass
> remixes?

The drum'n'bass remixes may not be commerically available, or they may be
pressed as a vinyl only piece to be added to LP pressings of Panthalassa being
imported from England.  I'll keep you posted.  There are four remix tracks
planned.

>  is laswell planning on doing more bob marley dubs?

Don't know, but if Panthalassa sells well Columbia plans to let Bill play
around with the Herbie Hancock and Carlos Santana archives...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:57:50 +0200
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Circular breathing

 > In the case of Zorn's solo, it was basically just that (a
 > shrilling note held for few minutes).

So, Zorn likes to impress people! Pure technique seems to be pretty
important for him.

     ______________________________________________________________________
     Artur Nowak ([e-mail]) (spam filter in use)
     www.silesia.top.pl/~arno/emd/pl40/artists/f/frisell_bill/default.htm
     For MS Internet Explorer 4 only!



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cappy D'Angelo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Dave Douglas

Does anyone know how to get info on Dave Douglas tour dates? Trying
to confirm rumours of a June 4 show in Vancouver...

Cappy D'Angelo
Student at Law - Intellectual Property
Dabbler in Recording - Sonic Solutions Digital Editing and Mastering
Twanger of Guitar & Blower of Eb Horns of Alto & Bari Persuasion
Victoria, B.C., CANADA








- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:50:53 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: serial music & why Zorn

 Hi all,

 Sorry that this comes in so late, but I was somewhat behind with reading all
 the digests.
 Just an afterthought to two recent discussions:

 1) The article on serial music invented by the Nazis:

  I guess this expands on an idea William S. Burroughs had, see "The Western
  Lands" for reference:

   "Musical intelligence. Agent attends a concert and receives his instructions."

 2) The question of why we like the music we hear:

   I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
   feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
   different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
   Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.

 ---------------------------------------------
 *    Chris Genzel --- [e-mail]    *
 * Homepage & Herbie Hancock discography at: *
 *    http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil/   *
 ---------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:05:15 EDT
From: CuneiWay <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Julie Tippetts

Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Subject: Julie Tippetts--Sunset Glow

>It's probably been asked before, possibly by me, but does anyone know if
>this is ever scheduled to make it to disc?

I think it's owned by RCA, now BMG, & it's doubtful that they will issue it.
It *IS* a great album. Maybe I should ask Julie who owns it.

>Carla Bley's 'Tropic Appetites' (and when is
>THAT going to be released to disc!?!?) stand out as extraordinary.

This I unfortunately have the answer for; I spoke to Carla's assistant about
the possibility of reissuing this project & other old o/p Watt releases about
18 - 24 months ago, & was basically told that they are not really interested
in having anyone else other than ECM do it [even though we can all die of old
age before THAT will happen].

Steve
Cuneiform Records

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 20:31:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn

On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote:

>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and I'm
>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?

Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
about yourself or the stars or both.  I'm regularly surprised by the
anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:36:32 +0200
From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: information about brandon ross 'the overflow'

Dear Zornheads,

A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and
one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter'
and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross
himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums).

Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some
cd's and on what label....

Thank you very much.....
- --
Stefan Verstraeten
Licentiaat Rechten & MBA
Mandaat - assistent Rechten
Faculteit T.E.W. - H.I.
U.F.S.I.A. - Universiteit Antwerpen
Bureau B - 421
Prinsstraat 13
B - 2000 Antwerpen
Belgium (Europe)
TEL.:    [phone]
FAX :    [phone]
GSM :    [phone]
[e-mail]
http://www.ufsia.ac.be

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:20:35 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: information about brandon ross 'the overflow'

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>
> Dear Zornheads,
>
> A few days ago, I was listening to some old Live at the KF -cd's, and
> one track really knocked me out. It was a track called 'the ugly waiter'
> and was performed by Brandon Ross' the overflow (consisting of Ross
> himself on guitar, Gibbs on bass and Bowne on drums).
>
> Anyway, My question was: does someone know if this band put out some
> cd's and on what label....
>
> Thank you very much.....

The Overflow recorded an album in '89 or '90, but it remains unreleased.
They sort of evolved into a new and as of yet unrecorded group, Harriet
Tubman, with JT Lewis instead of Dougie Bowne (who I think is still not
well).

                -Tom Pratt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:14:02 -0400
From: "Snap" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: serial music & why Zorn

>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Chris Genzel wrote:
>
>>    I don't really care why I like the stuff I like. I just like it, and
I'm
>>    feeling very comfortable with this. The "why"s and "how"s are not only
>>    different from person to person, but also for me from piece to piece.
>>    Question: do you like watching the stars? why?


And on that very same day Mr. Hamilton mordantly wrote:

>    Trying to answer this question might well teach you something important
>about yourself or the stars or both.  I'm regularly surprised by the
>anti-intellectualism adopted by so many people when it comes to music.

    And I myself am not at all surprised by the unerring elitism and
two-dimensional attempts at aesthetic erudition adopted by those on this
list who have the unmitigated propensity to objectify and thus coronate
their personal system of valuing a medium of art which is wholly palatial,
by that I mean pertinent to one's own tastes, and even at times to one's own
causality - a sequence of events and fixations in life may lead up to one's
preference of a genre over another; an observation as demanded, I know, but
entirely arbitrary when all that really might matter to a person is
gastro-intestinal bliss.
    So, are we expected to scribble out an exhaustive dissertation on peach
cobbler prior to shoving the spoon into our mouths? Hmm? (Perhaps it's the
color in relation to the granular state which easily adheres to the
silverware, our mouths delighting in the taboo of segregating the clustery
substance from its envoy) Because some of us here are not entirely concerned
with polemics as much as a nice sculpture of sound, the likes of whose aural
properties may merely do us cathartic good, or may even, yes, lean us toward
introspection. But that, as Chris Genzel so honestly put, may vary from
piece to piece.
    That you failed to extract from what he had said about his attraction to
Zorn's recordings shows that your attention is channeled toward some red
herring of a demagogic ideal - or ideals - with which some of us may be
unaware (they say age is requisite to wisdom) and therefore unconcerned. For
Chris Genzel HAS just told us why he likes Zorn's music: FOR
NON-INTELLECTUAL REASONS. [In tandem with some of his personality traits,
perhaps, albeit intrinsically, the Vedantic method of defrocking things like
"science" and "reason"(which has been stood upon its head for quite some
time now) clearly his way of dispensing with demons of sophistry and
possibly even enriching his listening pleasure.]
    If that doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to keep the headphones on,
then one probably doesn't exist. Sure, I could tell you why I am drawn to a
particular recording and tangentally summon causal ramifications by giving
my Psyche an autopsy or two, but I choose to more often than not just let
Orpheus twang away at his fucking lyre. Whether I am of Thracian descent as
he was, or that my father-in-law's brand-name company is responsible for his
instrument matters not to us sonic sybarites.
    The last thing we need is a musical Rush Limbaugh (who is a big fat
idiot) flinging his corpulence that way and this, parading down his
rose-strewn path of righteousness, kicking all thorns onto those who see the
path not as an end in itself, but as a means toward some nectar of sound.
    Now, whether your remark about Chris Gunzel's refusal to extrapolate the
behavior of his tympanic membranes was intentionally supercillious or just
impulsively thought up and typed in casual, elbow-in-the-side amiability
determines whether this obliquy of mine is likewise hawkish or aloof.

    Suo,
    Snap (who just heard a certain raga exude what he was told was intended
to be regret . . . )





- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #376
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]