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1998-04-30
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #350
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, May 1 1998 Volume 02 : Number 350
In this issue:
-
Milford Graves interview
Couple of semi-AMM-related questions
re: Steve Smith's incredibly detailed account of befuddlement at the Roscoe Mitchell concert, NYC 4/27/98 aka 'Spazz At The , Philharmonic'
Re: ZAPPA
Re: Masada KF broadcasts
Leng Tche
Re: Myra Melford in NC
Re: Leng Tche
Chris Speed
Re: CIMP recording
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:24:08 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Milford Graves interview
Perfect Sound Forever now has an interview with Professor Milford Graves, who talks about the connection between two life-long passions- music and
therapy: see http://www.furious.com/perfect/milfordgraves.html
You might also be interested in the new articles on Post-Rock cliches (http://www.furious.com/perfect/postrock.html) and French Rock
(http://www.furious.com/perfect/frenchrock.html) on the site.
Graves will be opening for Sonic Youth for some of their June dates here in New York at Irving Plaza. Interestingly, Irving Plaza also has Graves
opening for Cheap Trick (!)
See you online,
Jason
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 14:32:58 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Couple of semi-AMM-related questions
Can anyone cite or recommend:
1) Any piano works by John Tilbury outside of AMM? Including those
featuring music by other composers. I understand he's recorded a good
deal of Feldman for the London Hall label.
2) Any recordings by the British composer (and occasional AMM
collaborator) Howard Skempton.
Thanks,
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Newgarden <dn@panix.com>
Subject: re: Steve Smith's incredibly detailed account of befuddlement at the Roscoe Mitchell concert, NYC 4/27/98 aka 'Spazz At The , Philharmonic'
Steve -
Sorry I missed your post-show head-scratching and discussion -- I
sprinted to catch the 2nd Masada set 8 blocks away (I unfortunately missed
Zorn's camera/tape-recorder escapade, but he had some pretty
thought-provoking comments about it afterwards).
I very much _enjoyed_ the Roscoe Mitchell concert. I'm a long-time fan
and came in knowing what to expect, but honestly I'm not a fanatic. It's
been a few years since I've listened to anything by Mitchell and I
certainly have varying interest in his very different projects (I'd
personally rather watch Teletubbies than listen to his 'Space Ensemble'
extreme register stuff with Thomas Buckner), but I don't know if I'd be
quick to condemn any of it...
Given your intellect and diverse tastes, and with all your analyzing and
discussing of these 3 Mitchell pieces, I'm surprised that you're so
baffled by them, and that you're vexed by the brevity of the program
notes(!?) It's one thing to not enjoy a concert, but it's surprising that
you completely dismiss it despite giving it so much thought, and it's
surprising knowing you're such a huge Art Ensemble of Chicago fan to find
that you're unfamiliar with one of the major threads of Mitchell's work.
Besides the LRG/The Maze/SII Examples album (1978), there are at least
several other albums in a similar vein - I'm thinking of Solo Saxophone
Concerts (1974), Live At The Muhle Hunziken (1987), Duets with Braxton
(1978) and the stunning Noonah (1977), which is a little more 'obvious'
because of its repetition, but investigates similar terrain.
Steve Smith wrote:
>(L-R-G) I can't say much more than that for me this piece was easily the
>low point of the evening. It seemed like little more than an exercise in
>pointillistic frustration. But let me also mention that the A.A.C.M.
>did no one any favors by not providing notes for the composition in the
>program. There may have been a compelling method behind the seemingly
>pointless bleeps and burbles that passed from one player to another,
>seldom in tandem. But lacking those notes, all one heard was what I
>described, and I'd be surprised to hear if anyone else found the piece
>convincing.
LRG seemed to me to be a study of timbre, texture, articulation, tension,
'flow', 'space' 'sound' (these seem like appropriate words given his
groups SPACE and SOUND Ensemble; Mitchell used 'flow' in the
'controversial' program notes)... Stripped of melody, harmony, rhythm,
tempo, polyphony (or 'ensemble work' as you put it), the music's like a
magnifying glass or an x-ray isolating particular musical aspects. I can
dig your comparison to Tony Conrad, focusing on the texture of Conrad's
violin bowing...but I would think of very different comparisons to
ballpark it -- How about:
Giancinto Scelsi solo instrument compositions
Braxton For Alto Saxophone
Zorn Classic Guide To Strategy
solo Derek Bailey
Each has developed their own personal language investigating these similar
elements (timbre, texture, flow, space, tension), to varying degrees
eliminating melody, harmony, rhythm, tempos etc. I find them all
'convincing' - granted, not everyone does.
Mitchell's certainly capable of gorgeous lyricism and intense violent
emotion, as well as hilarious entertainment (no slight intended -- the Art
Ensemble has been one of my favorite groups since I first saw them at age
13), but these characteristics are not the point in L-R-G and its
'success' shouldn't necessarily be judged on those levels. Geez, there
were no lyrics either... I think it's very sad that you and your friends
equate 'cerebral' with 'dislike.' It seems to me that your need to judge
the piece on your specifications of 'pure music' (not to mention your
expectations of what Leo Smith should do) is reactionary and 'moldy
fig-ish'... Would you judge Painkiller, Masada, Naked City, News For Lulu,
Cobra performances all on the same standards of 'pure music'? Do you judge
rap music on its melody and harmony?
You noted and admired George Lewis' inventiveness and unusual instrumental
technique on LRG and you noted Mitchell's written description ("sound
collages based on the individual vocabularies of the players") and you
even discovered a major clue that I missed: LRG = Leo/Roscoe/George. For
me, these observations bring to mind Ellington's composing specifically
for the personalities of his particular performers, or for some relevance
to this list, compare to Zorn's 'Book of Heads' composed specifically for
Eugene Chadbourne's oddball guitar techniques.
I hadn't listened to the LRG album in at least 10 years, but I've pulled
it out now. Mitchell's album liner notes touch on many other ideas that
I'm not going to mention here (I'll gladly send a xerox by fax or mail to
anyone who wants one), but one simple simile he uses to describe LRG is
'photo snapshots' of the many 'sound worlds' of George Lewis, which
Mitchell as composer has 'pasted into a collage'. To take it a step
further, the 'space' and 'flow' of the piece suggest to me a quickly
moving slide show -- no it's certainly not a motion picture, it's not
'Gone With The Wind' or 'Titanic', but is it valid? Is it 'convincing'? Is
it fascinating? Is it art?
Si, senor!
Anyway - I enjoyed the concert, and I assume I'm not completely alone
considering the loud and enthusiastic applause. As you mentioned it was an
audience of pretty heavy musicians/composers (Marion Brown, Noah Howard,
Jumma Santos, Anthony Coleman, Myra Melford, J.D. Parran, Kelvyn Bell). I
also celeb-spotted Leroy Jenkins, Phill Niblock, Petr Kotik, Tom Surgal,
Alan Licht, David Nuss and Judy Dunaway in the house (as well as Graham
Lock who flew in from London)
It's pretty amusing (and a feather in Mitchell's cap) for a confused
audience member to walk out muttering at him in 1998... It makes me
chuckle that you find this guy noteworthy and that a (sympathetic) nitwit
in the audience yelled 'Shut Up! ' about 10 times louder than the
mutterer. (Mitchell's liner notes to the live Noonah album includes an
amazing description of his 'battle' with the audience). Did you, too, ask
for your money back?
If you require some legit critical nudging, I'll recommend checking out
John Litweiler (The Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958) in addition to
your Rolling Stone Jazz Guide. Litweiler has a lot to say about Mitchell
and devotes two pages to these specific pieces (much more enthusiastically
and eloquently than me). Here are a couple of excerpts:
"While the twentieth century is the era of percussion compositions, from
Varese to Stockhausen and Wuorinen, they all seem naive tours de force
next to the immense skill and finesse of The Maze... a startling
composition...The Maze is a rich chiaroscuro of clearly defined, mobile
wood and metal textures, with a great elegance of detail.
L-R-G is an existentialist statement, a condition of life, a state of
being; it is Mitchell's most intimate revelation."
Hopefully someone will take me to task for dis-ing the Space Ensemble....
- -David Newgarden
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:24:22 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: ZAPPA
Patrice L. Roussel writes:
> Boulez got attacked quite a bit in the '80s for having a very narrow vision
> of what is great contemporary music. I remember how much he dismissed
> basically every composer who did not have his card of affiliated serial
> composer. Even composers such as Ligetti had a hard time to be accepted
> (I don't remember Boulez' comment about Ligetti, but it was far from being
> flattering). Anyway, it seems to me that under more and more pressure to
> open the range of the Ensemble Intercontemporain program, he decided (against
> his will, I am sure), to get "outsiders" (definition easy to match when you
> know how narrow Boulez'vision of a good modern composer is). Surprisingly,
> he chose Zappa. I will always feel that his choice of Zappa was his way to
> show that he was more open that people thought, but, at the same time, he
> chose an artist whose "serious" music was more or less falling in the only
> cannon he believed was worth pushing: post-serial music!
This is not accurate or fair to Boulez, nor is it understanding of the
context that Zappa/Boulez/Ensemble Intercontemporain fall under.
Boulez has, for DECADES, promoted and performed music that is not serial
music; Messiaen, Carter, Birtwhistle, Ligeti, Ferneyhough and others.
Yeah, he's been peforming Ligeti long before the three concerto CD of
recent issue. Saying that the Ensemble had to open up their range
completely misunderstands the state of contemporary music, which has the
broadest range of any point in the history of western art music.
This is a sort of anti-snob snobbery I have seen a lot, especially in
regards to Boulez. When he was a younger composer, he was a rigorous
serialist and, admittedly, very rigid about that in his opinions. But
the guy has also been one of the world's leading conductors since the
1960's, leading all sorts of non--serial music from the contemporary
composers above through Wagner, Mahler, the second Viennese school
[including their non-serial works, of which there are many], Berlioz,
Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky. That's a lot of music. His own work has
broken free of the same rigid constraints since then as well; listen to
his piece memorializing Bruno Maderna, among others. And the Ensemble
exists to play contemporary music, whether Boulez is leading them or
not, and that means, yes, non-serial pieces, pieces other than by Boulez
himself.
Don't be so surprised by Zappa, think of it in terms of music, not
fashion or attitude. Zappa's music is firmly in the vein that Varese
pioneered. And it is also well made in terms of craft. Boulez has long
been an exponent of Varese, so why wouldn't he be sympathetic to Zappa's
work on musical terms alone? I know he's been on the record as saying
it's good music, and he liked it.
Boiulez's ego is certainly such that he has no need to show or prove to
anybody how open his mind is. What does he care, what does he have to
prove? Zilch. Especially in terms of contemporary music, he's THE MAN
there; the only comparable figures I can think of who have done as much
for the whole range of contemporary music are David Robertson [also a
director of the Ensemble Intercontemporain] and Paul Sacher, in terms of
programming and performing.
Boulez is demonstrating a new side lately, but it's quite the opposite
of what Patrice claimed; he's used Berg as a stepping stone BACK in time
to Mahler. He's been in the midst of recording a Mahler cycle over the
past three or four years.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "m. rizzi" <rizzi@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Masada KF broadcasts
Jack Blanton, demi-God and Icon sez:
>
>I am quite suprised that Zorn didn't know that this was happening, I mean
>I've know about it for a while and I didn't have a video camera pointed at
>me while performing.
Ever been on stage before? If you're lucky
you can see peoples faces in the second row
(due to all the direct light facing the stage
area) which makes it real hard to see a dinky
video camera up in the hot sweaty balcony.
m
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: chad edwards <chadhead@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Leng Tche
I noticed in the liner notes of NAKED CITY's Leng
Tche. that there is special thanks given to Mike
Patton and the Melvins.
I noticed that Leng Tche is fairly Melvinesque from
the first time I heard it.
Did Mike or any of the Melvis perform on this album?
Why was thanks given?
Chad.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Myra Melford in NC
On Fri, 1 May 1998, William York wrote:
. Does anyone know if her trio recordings (diff. lineup I
> know) live up to her live shows?
>
Yes, they do. Try "Alive In The House of Saints" on hatArt with her
"real" trio Lindsay Horner (b) and Reggie Nicholson (d) and you'll see
what I mean. The power that comes from those small hands ...
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:31:15 EDT
From: TWHY666 <TWHY666@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Leng Tche
>>>I noticed in the liner notes of NAKED CITY's Leng
Tche. that there is special thanks given to Mike
Patton and the Melvins.
I noticed that Leng Tche is fairly Melvinesque from
the first time I heard it.
Did Mike or any of the Melvis perform on this album?
Why was thanks given?
Chad<<<
listen to The Melvins "Joe Preston" album the idea for Leng T'che was taken
from the third song "Hands First Flower" 20 min. of slow chords and ambient
noise's!
Chad Boltz
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Reif <treif@songlines.com>
Subject: Chris Speed
I know it's gauche for a label to hype its own artists, but, like the hair
replacement VP in the commercial, "I'm also a fan", and for me Yeah No's
recent concert at the Western Front in Vancouver was a real high point.
Anyone on the list near Santa Cruz (tonight), SF, San Diego or LA, do check
out their remaining concerts. Good as the record is, you gotta hear them
live.
Some of the things I love about this group:
- - the way they really play together: transitions, counterpoint, the
sometimes dense and shifting give-and-take of textures and gestures that
maintains an almost hallucinatory clarity.
- - Chris's melodies, stringent and delicate, and his beautiful take on
Coltrane on the tenor (though I wish he'd play more clarinet!)
- - the sheer fun of Jim Black. Watching him make action-music by for example
"randomly" and teasingly dangling a heavy chain over, around and across
several stainless steel bowls, more or less daring things to take their own
course (while his other appendages offer the occasional comment)
foregrounds the falseness of such apparent dichotomies as freedom and
necessity, improvisation and composition, elegance and crudeness...
- - Skuli Sverrisson's chops, imagination and great sound(s) on electric
bass, an instrument I'm not always overly fond of. And when he starts
preparing and bowing it...
Nuff said.
Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:04:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Reif <treif@songlines.com>
Subject: Re: CIMP recording
I've only heard a couple of CIMPs and people tell me that some come off
better than others sonically. I have audiophile leanings myself: I think
dynamic range is generally a good thing and obvious audible compression
always a bad thing, I like to hear a realistic soundstage and
dimensionality to instruments and a sense of ambience (qualities that with
panned mono multimiking, especially in 16 bit digital, tend to be in short
supply), and I hate tasteless and artificial sounding reverb, but I also
feel that many of the best sounding jazz records hide their artifice rather
than adhering to a purist recording approach.
When it comes down to it, any way you can get the music's emotion and
aliveness on record is an accomplishment. I don't want a document of the
sound of a studio or even necessarily that of a good hall, if it draws
attention to the recording process and the recording space rather than the
music. And for me the CIMP (and before them the Chesky) approach can do
that in not-so-subtle ways that rob the music of its impact and even its
supposed naturalness: for example, problems of perspective. Example: if a
trumpet isn't going to overpower a double bass it has to be farther from
the mikes, but then it has too much room sound around it compared to the
bass...and in the process the trumpet timbre is compromised. Or else you
have to ask the performers to second guess their own playing volume in
relation to the dynamics of what the mike placement requires...not a good
idea in improvised music that depends on abandon...
I'm not saying that two mikes in a room can't ever work, sometimes indeed
less is more, because it's inevitable that the more electronics you put
between the players and the listener the greater the potential loss of
realism. I am saying that talented engineers who know their mikes and have
really good recording equipment can do live mixes (or even multitrack and
mix later), whether it takes 2 mikes or 10, and even out the
anomalies/artefacts of the recording situation while maintaining a degree
of presence, texture and detail that helps get the spirit of music across
the aluminum barrier. Finally it's not just acoustics but psychoacoustics
and the very significant differences between seeing/hearing music live and
hearing it on disc that have to be taken into account. Live, the listener
sees the music and up to a point (but only up to a point - I still prefer
the front row and no sound reinforcement!) unconsciously corrects for sonic
inadequaces in the heat of a real, unfolding and never-to-be-repeated
experience. On disc, with only sonic cues and a severely circumscribed
setting (yeah, your house could still burn down but with the music you know
that nothing can happen that hasn't already happened), what you hear is
what you get.
Tony Reif (Songlines Recordings)
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #350
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